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On April 30 2014 16:01 Qwerty85 wrote:
I think people are blowing the suggested upgrade buff way out of proportion. Terran players in TvZ already start the next set of upgrades as soon as first one finishes anyway and the cost reduction is not so high to make a huge difference. It means basically having a few extra units out.
But if there is a problem in TvZ, it isn't upgrades for terran. The bigger problem when going bio is dealing with mutas. All terran anti air options stayed the same compared to WoL (while mutas got much stronger) and WM got nerfed. So if there is any buff we need in TvZ, it would be thor speed buff. Right now, when playing bio, you must go for thors because mines alone are not good enough anymore. And using 1.88 speed thors obviously slows down bio and in a way removes one of its strengths -mobility, which means zerg with a big muta flock can buy a lot of time to get to hive tech units like ultras, even if they are losing the game. Especially when we consider that maps are overall getting bigger and bigger. It made sense to increase overlord speed for better scouting, I don't see why thors should move at 1.88 considering the map sizes in Hots.
Stayed the same? Like....Mines not shooting up?
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On April 30 2014 15:43 Elitios wrote:
About the hellbats, given the fact that no matter the upgrades (blue flame etc) hellbats destroy any lings based composition, that mean that zerg will have to have roaches early game to defend against even something like the usual 6 hellions + 2 reapers poke. Which in my opinion sucks for the game.
what do you mean by this, why would zergs have to get roaches for the 6 hellions+ 2 reapers, you dont get hellbats right away you still need the armory(which i guess terran can get). if you mean for the later push with like 1-1 medivacs hellions and such sure i kinda understand that but you dont need roaches for 6 hellions and 2 reapers, 5-6 queens and lings(with good creep) is fine vs this. but getting a couple roachs doesnt hurt but there not needed.
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The game will be dead before they figure out to nerf Oracles rushes against terran.
User was warned for this post
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I think the new mappool is also a big part of the recent Zerg dominance in zvt. The Hellbat change could make for some "fun" timings .. :D
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On April 30 2014 16:03 Heyray wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 16:01 Qwerty85 wrote:
I think people are blowing the suggested upgrade buff way out of proportion. Terran players in TvZ already start the next set of upgrades as soon as first one finishes anyway and the cost reduction is not so high to make a huge difference. It means basically having a few extra units out.
But if there is a problem in TvZ, it isn't upgrades for terran. The bigger problem when going bio is dealing with mutas. All terran anti air options stayed the same compared to WoL (while mutas got much stronger) and WM got nerfed. So if there is any buff we need in TvZ, it would be thor speed buff. Right now, when playing bio, you must go for thors because mines alone are not good enough anymore. And using 1.88 speed thors obviously slows down bio and in a way removes one of its strengths -mobility, which means zerg with a big muta flock can buy a lot of time to get to hive tech units like ultras, even if they are losing the game. Especially when we consider that maps are overall getting bigger and bigger. It made sense to increase overlord speed for better scouting, I don't see why thors should move at 1.88 considering the map sizes in Hots. Stayed the same? Like....Mines not shooting up?
mines don't do the trick. See the recent life-fantasy game, where life was flying mutas quite carelessly and didn't give much shit about clusters of mines, which zergs usually refer to as deadly, "one mistake per game" kind of stuff. In fact I remember exactly one game where an entire flock of mutas was destroyed while stacking by mines (revival vs mma(?)).
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1 is a big nono in my opinion, there is nothing in the game that indicates that such a change is necessary.
2 is alright.
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On April 30 2014 16:04 starslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 15:43 Elitios wrote:
About the hellbats, given the fact that no matter the upgrades (blue flame etc) hellbats destroy any lings based composition, that mean that zerg will have to have roaches early game to defend against even something like the usual 6 hellions + 2 reapers poke. Which in my opinion sucks for the game.
what do you mean by this, why would zergs have to get roaches for the 6 hellions+ 2 reapers, you dont get hellbats right away you still need the armory(which i guess terran can get). if you mean for the later push with like 1-1 medivacs hellions and such sure i kinda understand that but you dont need roaches for 6 hellions and 2 reapers, 5-6 queens and lings(with good creep) is fine vs this. but getting a couple roachs doesnt hurt but there not needed.
yeah, if you can make sure there is no armory I don't think you need roaches. I'd love to have that change on a testmap to just try it out.
But I can see Elitos point, like a Terran doing a reaper/hellion opening and commiting harder to hellions than they do now (like the 8hellions some terrans do now; possibly even more) and getting the armory behind - which is much cheaper than adding banshees - and then transforming like 6-10hellions to hellbats sounds like it is going to take down the third 100% of the time if you are not going roach. Though being forced into some defensive roaches is not necessarily a problem, right?
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Here are my 2 cents about the proposed changes:
Firstly as Mech player I certainly like the 2nd option (remove transformation servos) better, because the Bio upgrades buff (option 1) wouldn't give me anything.
Apart from that I don't think that option 1 addresses the real problems of terran, which mainly is a hard early- to midgame. Especially in TvP the high number of possible Protoss openings and pressure builds can end the game before the Terran would even get to the point where he could research level 2 Bio upgrades.
Overall having more Hellbats earlier (pre-produce Hellions and transform them to Hellbats, right when Armory done), could help Terrans to hold early pressure better and may give them some options to pressure the opponent themselves as well (e.g. Hellbat drops). This may force Protoss and Zerg to play a little safer in the early- and midgame, so the Terran has a chance to stay on even footing macro-wise.
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On April 30 2014 16:03 Heyray wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 16:01 Qwerty85 wrote:
I think people are blowing the suggested upgrade buff way out of proportion. Terran players in TvZ already start the next set of upgrades as soon as first one finishes anyway and the cost reduction is not so high to make a huge difference. It means basically having a few extra units out.
But if there is a problem in TvZ, it isn't upgrades for terran. The bigger problem when going bio is dealing with mutas. All terran anti air options stayed the same compared to WoL (while mutas got much stronger) and WM got nerfed. So if there is any buff we need in TvZ, it would be thor speed buff. Right now, when playing bio, you must go for thors because mines alone are not good enough anymore. And using 1.88 speed thors obviously slows down bio and in a way removes one of its strengths -mobility, which means zerg with a big muta flock can buy a lot of time to get to hive tech units like ultras, even if they are losing the game. Especially when we consider that maps are overall getting bigger and bigger. It made sense to increase overlord speed for better scouting, I don't see why thors should move at 1.88 considering the map sizes in Hots. Stayed the same? Like....Mines not shooting up?
Mines were mostly a problem against zerg ground units. A good mine shot would blow up a lot of lings or banes, or both.
But the mine got a nerf to air as well even though muta regen is almost 4x faster compared to WoL.
So yeah, as I said, anti air options we had in WoL stayed the same, mutas got better and mine damage got nerfed. So that obviously weakens terran anti air.
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apparently Blizzard get their PvT feedback from Rain. as a Terran player (not that i really play anymore), i think the upgrade change doesn't make sense but the hellbat change sounds good to me 
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[B]On April 30 2014 09:16 HelloSon wrote:
This option addresses the concern that PvT is trending better than we expected, and ZvT worse than expected. At this point, we’re fairly certain that Protoss isn’t struggling against Terran (which runs contrary to pro feedback we’ve been receiving), but we’re also receiving pro feedback on ZvT that indicates we might want to have a bigger change lined up.
Always wondered how Blizz make these kind of statements.
They have Pro players (the most skilled and knowledgeable of the players) giving feedback and they convince themselves that it is not the case.
A sample of Winrates can only get you so far. Would be even worse if they are gathering data all the way down to bronze league.
Makes me wonder what kind of feedback they are willing to consider.
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They are right about TvZ Bio play, Zergs have learned to deal with the now weaker widow mines so it is reasonable to give them a slight buff - but do not change the upgrades, Terran has it easier to get ahead in ups anyways, making an even stronger 2/2 timing possible is the wrong way to go imo, since this is the second strongest moment of the Terran in a bio TvZ (the strongest being the time window from 3/3 to Zergs 3/3).
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On April 30 2014 16:17 AKAvg wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On April 30 2014 09:16 HelloSon wrote:
This option addresses the concern that PvT is trending better than we expected, and ZvT worse than expected. At this point, we’re fairly certain that Protoss isn’t struggling against Terran (which runs contrary to pro feedback we’ve been receiving), but we’re also receiving pro feedback on ZvT that indicates we might want to have a bigger change lined up.
Always wondered how Blizz make these kind of statements. They have Pro players (the most skilled and knowledgeable of the players) giving feedback and they convince themselves that it is not the case. A sample of Winrates can only get you so far. Would be even worse if they are gathering data all the way down to bronze league. Makes me wonder what kind of feedback they are willing to consider.
Pro feedback that is not super biased, like for example this statement from Rain
That additional damage against shield was really big. Now Protoss can’t play using a templar build order. Once Terrans realized that, they are now so much more daring. And even without all that, Terran is still too strong. It’s like WoL Brood Lord/Infestor/Corruptor level.
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Yes! Get rid of transformation servoes! Nobody ever used it because it's so expensive, hellions and hellbats are practically different units now instead of transformations of each other. I actually proposed this change months ago!
The upgrade cost change is difficult, terran 3/3 is so strong I don't know if it's a good idea to get it earlier.
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TvZ can be and should be fixed with maps. Ridiculous maps like Frost and Alterzim should go.
Removing maps as above should also help out TvP. It may or may not be enough but at least that's the right way to go about it first. Right now T is often in the dark in those gigantic maps while P can pull off cheese and greed, and 234908573567 things in between.
I am of the opinion that maps will be enough to fix most of the issues, but if map changes are not enough then perhaps MSC should be looked at. But again I think if maps are more dangerous to protoss (and less friendly to blink) then terrans can do their things.
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Second option is better but not enough to pull terran out of deep shit DK have put it in.
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I rarely play anymore but the major problem terran has is the ability to keep up in tech. If they lowered the build time of the factory by 5 seconds (which would not factor in to the transitioning of a factory to a reactor'd rax) and the build time of the starport by 5 seconds I think you could see a lot more variety in terran play, as banshee openers would be 10 seconds faster as well as widow mine drops. I think it would definitely help increase the threat level of terran early game which is severely lacking. Ultra late game terran imho on maps that are splittable is the best, but on the 3-4 player maps terran late game is horrendous due to mobility.
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this is stupid, terran already only has 4 upgrades compared to the 5 of zerg and protoss, and now they want to decrease the cost, this is too unfair, i think that also zerg shouldn't need hive for 3/3, cuz toss and terran only need twilight, and armory for 3/3 respectively, terran just sucks as a race, really only 4 upgrades for crying out loud
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On April 30 2014 14:47 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 14:45 mangofrancesco wrote:
It's sad how people keep giving Rain shit about his comments about balance. I recall Zergs saying the same sort of comments during the overpowered BL/Infestor era and no one laughed at them for whining about it. Funny how biased the community is towards certain players/races. Rain said that Terran was as overpowered as BL/Infestor as Protoss won all but one of the past 8 (?) major tournies. But we're not supposed to find that ridiculous, because of your anecdotal evidence that some Zerg players did the same thing and you don't remember an uproar?
Rain is obviously wrong but he was complaining about widow mines, considering 6-7 of those tourney wins were before widow mines were buffed this doesn't really make sense.
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On April 30 2014 09:42 avilo wrote:
My thoughts:
About option 1:
Why are they always buffing bio more and more and when they finally say something like they are willing to cut costs on bio upgrades...why are they not willing to make armories 100/50 to help mech TvP and mech in general? Dkim seems to understand the concept that cutting a few 1 time upgrade costs can change the game entirely...but he's unwilling to do that for mech TvP via armories...
About option 2:
Yes, hellions/transform should have been like that since the game came out because we payed for an expansion pack where one of the highlighted units was the hellions gaining the ability to transform but you rarely ever see this in games at all, at least professional games because it's only researched with late late game mech.
So...yeah. About TvP, only the first 10-15 minutes are broken in Protoss favor because of all-ins and proxied stargates + ferraricles and blink all-in + MSC nexus cannon forcing Terran to go reaper expand virtually every game. Nexus cannon alone forces Terran to have to get a 2nd command center because there is no reasonable way to open 1 base banshee or 1 base drop since it will be shut down.
And about TvZ...only reason it looks more Z favored are because of the maps and because the widow mine nerf imo. The mine nerf right now is allowing Zerg to virtually mass 1 unit, the mutalisk almost unimpeded. Revert mine nerf, match-up is back to normal. Of course then Zergs will complain again that they can't box select 200/200 ling bane muta and walk through a mine field...but they should not have been able to like they can right now.
+100
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EPT
