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On May 06 2014 05:21 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2014 18:48 Ghanburighan wrote:On May 05 2014 18:44 TT1 wrote:
PvT
"However, we do believe the matchup is still slightly in favor of Protoss" -__________________-
so clueless Disciple of Rain spotted. hahaha, its true tho. protoss is forced to open 1 way now due to the mine/ghost buffs (blink + collo) and that makes us extremely predictable. its a low econ style so all that terran has to do is scv pull at 13-14mins and were dead, watch illusion vs jyp on overgrowth for reference
What really prevent you to open oracle, blink, or dts ? There is only one opening if you want to play greedy, but terran has only one viablle opening for months now.
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On May 05 2014 00:21 mostevil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2014 00:00 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2014 23:52 ZAiNs wrote:On May 04 2014 23:47 Frex wrote:On May 04 2014 23:36 ZeromuS wrote:On May 04 2014 22:29 Frex wrote:
I feel that they might as well remove Durable Materials upgrade from raven and just grant it to them automatically.
They could also rething Neosteel Frames upgrade You can't simply give every unit all its upgrades for free. It removes diversity from the game and makes timings more powerful without actually putting effort in. IMO small changes like this are a step in the right direction and while it is removing an upgrade, its an upgrade whose initial implementation was always very very contentious. I don´t know if you are familiar with Durable Materials, but all it does is increase the duration of Auto-Turret and PDD from 3 minutes to 4 minutes. I was also suggesting to redesign Neosteel Frames upgrade, which I have not seen in use in any game during HotS. Having new upgrades would actually add diversity. They could also do something Caduceus Reactor upgrade (another upgarde which I have never seen upgraded in a live game), they did play around with it in beta, but just left as it was in WoL. Regarding Caduceus Reactor: some people have started it to fake Cloak research. HotS even killed this only use; now you can fake Cloak with Cloak. (: The energy boost ups would be a lot more meaningful if it upped the max energy or regen rate.
Blizzard did try adding an increased regen rate to the upgrade back in the HotS beta, but it turned out to be too powerful in conjunctiom with medivac boost so they reverted it back to the more boring version.
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On May 06 2014 05:43 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2014 05:21 TT1 wrote:On May 05 2014 18:48 Ghanburighan wrote:On May 05 2014 18:44 TT1 wrote:
PvT
"However, we do believe the matchup is still slightly in favor of Protoss" -__________________-
so clueless Disciple of Rain spotted. hahaha, its true tho. protoss is forced to open 1 way now due to the mine/ghost buffs (blink + collo) and that makes us extremely predictable. its a low econ style so all that terran has to do is scv pull at 13-14mins and were dead, watch illusion vs jyp on overgrowth for reference What really prevent you to open oracle, blink, or dts ? There is only one opening if you want to play greedy, but terran has only one viablle opening for months now.
i shoulda phrased that differently, i meant early-midd game comps. you can open with blink/oracles but you have to go into blink collo from there because chargelot/ht isnt viable anymore vs bio mine
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On May 06 2014 05:27 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
I'd personally like more changes in the "buff tank, nerf mine" department. Although I do like the hellbat change as well.
Why the fuck does the Mine gotta be nerfed for the Tank to be buffed? I didn't understand it when Blizzard thought it up, I don't understand it now that you're bringing it up months later. The best possible result is that people will stop using Mines and start using Tanks instead. You know what else gets that result? Just buffing Tanks without nerfing anything!!! Their strengths and weaknesses overlap.
Bio tank will be a hundred times scarier with a buffed Siege Tank than tank/mine.
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On May 06 2014 06:32 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2014 05:43 Faust852 wrote:On May 06 2014 05:21 TT1 wrote:On May 05 2014 18:48 Ghanburighan wrote:On May 05 2014 18:44 TT1 wrote:
PvT
"However, we do believe the matchup is still slightly in favor of Protoss" -__________________-
so clueless Disciple of Rain spotted. hahaha, its true tho. protoss is forced to open 1 way now due to the mine/ghost buffs (blink + collo) and that makes us extremely predictable. its a low econ style so all that terran has to do is scv pull at 13-14mins and were dead, watch illusion vs jyp on overgrowth for reference What really prevent you to open oracle, blink, or dts ? There is only one opening if you want to play greedy, but terran has only one viablle opening for months now. i shoulda phrased that differently, i meant early-midd game comps. you can open with blink/oracles but you have to go into blink collo from there because chargelot/ht isnt viable anymore vs bio mine
and what about terran? not much option there either. We still see protoss still mix in phoenix with their compositions as well. Bottom line is that both in openings and compositionwise protoss have many more options than terran.
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I think Protoss can still hold strong in macro games by accelerating chargelot archon transitions against scv pulls. Mixing in the usual full on colossi style and things like two colossi with range into charge + archons/storm or one colossus with no range into very fast templar (that can adapt in more standard colossus play in case of heavy mine play) could help us get less predictable and keep the Terran guessing because the scv pull timing that'll be hard to deal with differs with every of those styles.
Then again, I'm nowhere near TT1 level. Just a noob's point of view.
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On May 06 2014 06:32 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2014 05:43 Faust852 wrote:On May 06 2014 05:21 TT1 wrote:On May 05 2014 18:48 Ghanburighan wrote:On May 05 2014 18:44 TT1 wrote:
PvT
"However, we do believe the matchup is still slightly in favor of Protoss" -__________________-
so clueless Disciple of Rain spotted. hahaha, its true tho. protoss is forced to open 1 way now due to the mine/ghost buffs (blink + collo) and that makes us extremely predictable. its a low econ style so all that terran has to do is scv pull at 13-14mins and were dead, watch illusion vs jyp on overgrowth for reference What really prevent you to open oracle, blink, or dts ? There is only one opening if you want to play greedy, but terran has only one viablle opening for months now. i shoulda phrased that differently, i meant early-midd game comps. you can open with blink/oracles but you have to go into blink collo from there because chargelot/ht isnt viable anymore vs bio mine
So when protoss can't exactly a move 2/2 charglot/archon timings vs properly placed widow mines, and bio it means it's not viable? I still see plenty of good Korean Protoss playing that style, only difference now is that they have to flank and spread out with their zealots and keep a few observers around instead, they still have no issue transitioning into storm and playing a macro game from there, later on adding additional tech. Protoss actually have to have additional micro now vs widow mine comp....
It's a lot harder for the Terran early and mid game, Protoss still have dozens of different options and openings, Terran still has to play 2 base and open Reaper Fe every single game.
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i think they should increase the movespeed of hellbats a tad and revert the widow mine change
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On May 06 2014 06:32 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2014 05:43 Faust852 wrote:On May 06 2014 05:21 TT1 wrote:On May 05 2014 18:48 Ghanburighan wrote:On May 05 2014 18:44 TT1 wrote:
PvT
"However, we do believe the matchup is still slightly in favor of Protoss" -__________________-
so clueless Disciple of Rain spotted. hahaha, its true tho. protoss is forced to open 1 way now due to the mine/ghost buffs (blink + collo) and that makes us extremely predictable. its a low econ style so all that terran has to do is scv pull at 13-14mins and were dead, watch illusion vs jyp on overgrowth for reference What really prevent you to open oracle, blink, or dts ? There is only one opening if you want to play greedy, but terran has only one viablle opening for months now. i shoulda phrased that differently, i meant early-midd game comps. you can open with blink/oracles but you have to go into blink collo from there because chargelot/ht isnt viable anymore vs bio mine
Well, yes. The mine buff was intended to remove the double forge-HT fast-teching option, and it seems to have mostly succeeded (some trickery is needed to make it work now). But that doesn't mean that Protoss is weak against terran, not by a long shot.
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China6329 Posts
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On May 06 2014 22:29 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2014 06:32 TT1 wrote:On May 06 2014 05:43 Faust852 wrote:On May 06 2014 05:21 TT1 wrote:On May 05 2014 18:48 Ghanburighan wrote:On May 05 2014 18:44 TT1 wrote:
PvT
"However, we do believe the matchup is still slightly in favor of Protoss" -__________________-
so clueless Disciple of Rain spotted. hahaha, its true tho. protoss is forced to open 1 way now due to the mine/ghost buffs (blink + collo) and that makes us extremely predictable. its a low econ style so all that terran has to do is scv pull at 13-14mins and were dead, watch illusion vs jyp on overgrowth for reference What really prevent you to open oracle, blink, or dts ? There is only one opening if you want to play greedy, but terran has only one viablle opening for months now. i shoulda phrased that differently, i meant early-midd game comps. you can open with blink/oracles but you have to go into blink collo from there because chargelot/ht isnt viable anymore vs bio mine Well, yes. The mine buff was intended to remove the double forge-HT fast-teching option, and it seems to have mostly succeeded (some trickery is needed to make it work now). But that doesn't mean that Protoss is weak against terran, not by a long shot.
Well I'd rather have both colo & fast HT openings/compostions/styles viable. In my understanding mine buff was meant to help dealing with mass chargelots and theirs fast warp-in reinforcements than outright killing chargelot/ht comp. Maybe chargelot/ht is still possible to play with proper positioning etc. however I must say that since mine buff I hardly remember any P doing it. We have to wait and see.
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On May 06 2014 23:46 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2014 22:29 Ghanburighan wrote:On May 06 2014 06:32 TT1 wrote:On May 06 2014 05:43 Faust852 wrote:On May 06 2014 05:21 TT1 wrote:On May 05 2014 18:48 Ghanburighan wrote:On May 05 2014 18:44 TT1 wrote:
PvT
"However, we do believe the matchup is still slightly in favor of Protoss" -__________________-
so clueless Disciple of Rain spotted. hahaha, its true tho. protoss is forced to open 1 way now due to the mine/ghost buffs (blink + collo) and that makes us extremely predictable. its a low econ style so all that terran has to do is scv pull at 13-14mins and were dead, watch illusion vs jyp on overgrowth for reference What really prevent you to open oracle, blink, or dts ? There is only one opening if you want to play greedy, but terran has only one viablle opening for months now. i shoulda phrased that differently, i meant early-midd game comps. you can open with blink/oracles but you have to go into blink collo from there because chargelot/ht isnt viable anymore vs bio mine Well, yes. The mine buff was intended to remove the double forge-HT fast-teching option, and it seems to have mostly succeeded (some trickery is needed to make it work now). But that doesn't mean that Protoss is weak against terran, not by a long shot. Well I'd rather have both colo & fast HT openings/compostions/styles viable. In my understanding mine buff was meant to help dealing with mass chargelots and theirs fast warp-in reinforcements than outright killing chargelot/ht comp. Maybe chargelot/ht is still possible to play with proper positioning etc. however I must say that since mine buff I hardly remember any P doing it. We have to wait and see.
The comp isn't dead, MC just killed TY with it (colossus was the stepping stone, and colossus was also added at the very end when the game was already over, but the killing blow was chargelot,archon,HT). It's only a different transition now.
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I really like this idea , because the nice thing about hellbat when they annouced it was this hybrid status of the unit, fast and weak as an hellion and slow but strong as a Hellbat. But the transformation actually almost never occured since the released of HoTS so it a step in the right direction in my opinion.
Nevertheless, as much as I like it design wise... I guess it will be too strong as a buff for TvZ (even if I agree that a buff is needed).
Not sure about PvT, maybe there will be some new hellion opening, but I don't think it would be that problematic. As for TvT, isn't it a BIG buff for mech, as these kind of playstyle usually start with a lot of Hellions?
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On May 07 2014 00:49 Vanadiel wrote:
I really like this idea , because the nice thing about hellbat when they annouced it was this hybrid status of the unit, fast and weak as an hellion and slow but strong as a Hellbat. But the transformation actually almost never occured since the released of HoTS so it a step in the right direction in my opinion.
Nevertheless, as much as I like it design wise... I guess it will be too strong as a buff for TvZ (even if I agree that a buff is needed).
Not sure about PvT, maybe there will be some new hellion opening, but I don't think it would be that problematic. As for TvT, isn't it a BIG buff for mech, as these kind of playstyle usually start with a lot of Hellions?
I only see it strong for some cheesy two base all-in play TvT. But, as a mech player myself, most meching Terran's want helions and not Hellbats (until late game); it is too easy for a double medicvac drop to kite all your Hellbats to death.
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On May 06 2014 06:32 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2014 05:43 Faust852 wrote:On May 06 2014 05:21 TT1 wrote:On May 05 2014 18:48 Ghanburighan wrote:On May 05 2014 18:44 TT1 wrote:
PvT
"However, we do believe the matchup is still slightly in favor of Protoss" -__________________-
so clueless Disciple of Rain spotted. hahaha, its true tho. protoss is forced to open 1 way now due to the mine/ghost buffs (blink + collo) and that makes us extremely predictable. its a low econ style so all that terran has to do is scv pull at 13-14mins and were dead, watch illusion vs jyp on overgrowth for reference What really prevent you to open oracle, blink, or dts ? There is only one opening if you want to play greedy, but terran has only one viablle opening for months now. i shoulda phrased that differently, i meant early-midd game comps. you can open with blink/oracles but you have to go into blink collo from there because chargelot/ht isnt viable anymore vs bio mine
I think this remains to be seen since I've seen Protoss players opening HT still at the highest levels, but if this is true then it's a serious flaw in the way Blizzard addressed the TvP problems. Terran doesn't exactly have more options now than they did before, and if all they've done to 'balance' TvP is reduce Protoss options, it's going to create a very stale metagame. There should be a balance between reducing Protoss options (without removing them completely) and increasing Terran ones.
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On May 06 2014 23:49 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2014 23:46 egrimm wrote:On May 06 2014 22:29 Ghanburighan wrote:On May 06 2014 06:32 TT1 wrote:On May 06 2014 05:43 Faust852 wrote:On May 06 2014 05:21 TT1 wrote:On May 05 2014 18:48 Ghanburighan wrote:On May 05 2014 18:44 TT1 wrote:
PvT
"However, we do believe the matchup is still slightly in favor of Protoss" -__________________-
so clueless Disciple of Rain spotted. hahaha, its true tho. protoss is forced to open 1 way now due to the mine/ghost buffs (blink + collo) and that makes us extremely predictable. its a low econ style so all that terran has to do is scv pull at 13-14mins and were dead, watch illusion vs jyp on overgrowth for reference What really prevent you to open oracle, blink, or dts ? There is only one opening if you want to play greedy, but terran has only one viablle opening for months now. i shoulda phrased that differently, i meant early-midd game comps. you can open with blink/oracles but you have to go into blink collo from there because chargelot/ht isnt viable anymore vs bio mine Well, yes. The mine buff was intended to remove the double forge-HT fast-teching option, and it seems to have mostly succeeded (some trickery is needed to make it work now). But that doesn't mean that Protoss is weak against terran, not by a long shot. Well I'd rather have both colo & fast HT openings/compostions/styles viable. In my understanding mine buff was meant to help dealing with mass chargelots and theirs fast warp-in reinforcements than outright killing chargelot/ht comp. Maybe chargelot/ht is still possible to play with proper positioning etc. however I must say that since mine buff I hardly remember any P doing it. We have to wait and see. The comp isn't dead, MC just killed TY with it (colossus was the stepping stone, and colossus was also added at the very end when the game was already over, but the killing blow was chargelot,archon,HT). It's only a different transition now.
I'm not sure which game You're refering to. I only watched MC vs TY dreamhack games. First one was blink all-in, 2nd was immo bust into macro attempt only 3rd game had macro opening with stargate pheonix into double forge + colo where only after 3rd colossus MC added templar archive and proceeded to take 3rd base. When I was mentioning HT openings I was refering to quick robo for obs forge for +1 aromour and then twilight for charge/+2 armour and templar archives and in comparison to pre-patch times there this build rarely ever occurs. I haven't seen it for a while from sOs/herO/Rain however as I said maybe Protosses needs to adapt and adjust their play so we could see again HT openings.
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Is the whole point of mech v Z in general just to defend until mass raven? That's what I gather from watching bbyong vs life, and countless useless mech vs Z games, where Terran simply has more than enough all game defending against SH.
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I was just thinking, since we all hate how ubgrades just disappear, why dont we go with the buff n2 but make transformation servos stay in the game but actually change what they do. Make them cut down the time tanks need to siege from 4 to 3 seconds, it would be a decent buff for TvZ and also TvP.
In general in TvP I think the problem is that toss can do anything behind msc protection while terran is scouting the shit out of their reaper. The other viable option is reaper expo. Protoss has to many "all ins" that have to be prepared for with such investment from terran that protoss can on the fly change their mind and go macro totally fine.
Theres way too many things that protoss can outright kill terran with early game while protoss is entirely safe. Thanks to msc.
In TvZ problems started when you guys nerfed wm at a tome where many top level zergs had innovation figured out and now zerg no longer has to try to triger mines, they can just a move right into them 
Mutas are currently also a huge problem, they eat turrets no problemo while theyre also amazing in fights thanks to their regen. You guys should consider buff to turrets bio tag. Turret without ebay should also be done since zerg got it for the same exact reason terran should.
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EPT
