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Constructive criticism is welcome, but no mindless SC2/Developer bashing in this thread. |
On January 25 2014 07:31 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2014 06:27 Frex wrote:On January 25 2014 05:58 lowercase wrote:
Terran winrates are below 50%, but they've been above 50% for the vast majority of the whole life of SC2. It's natural to have peaks and troughs if the balance is hovering around 50% winrate. I don't think Terran is really underpowered, except maybe versus early game P due to MSC. You can look at win rates as much as you want but currently terran is so underrepresented that it is beyond retarded. Protoss are doubling, tripling, quadrupling, quintupling, and the heck, even hextupling terran in representation in so many places. Just looking at winrates is delusional when there is so many more variables. You forget when GSL had 20 Terrans in it at the peak of Terran. These things happen. Brood War had no patches for many many years and the metagame kept evolving on its own.
Do you know how blizzard reacted back then? Do you? I can be helpful with that:
A big balance patch which included:
- immortal range buff from 5 to 6
- cheaper ground upgrades for Protoss
- EMP radius nerf to 1.5
You can allways claim that there were other imbalances in the past, but the game was ALLWAYS massively patched afterwards.
GSL 2012 season 2 saw Zerg lose nearly every match against Protoss, while sitting on a 50-50 winratio against Terran. This leaded to all Zerg being eliminated after the Ro16. Blizzard reacted with the queen range buff and Overlord speed buff.
Everytime in the history of SC2, Terran was massively nerfed if they had a good run over some time or P/Z were buffed. I won´t say it was wrong back then, because in most cases it wasn´t. Now we the worst representation of one race in GSL history and in WCS EU it doesn´t look any brighter. Of course this is happening all by coincidence. Terran players were just lazy over the holidays I guess.
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I'll never understand people's mentality of "your race was OP so now it's my race's turn to be OP." Why not have a fun and balanced game? It's no fun winning just because you made the right units.
I'm honestly for all of these changes. At this point in HotS, it would be better to change the game so it's more fun to play (and watch) since DK has already released league results showing near 50% win rates.
SC2 needs to be fun. The only fun matchup for me is ZvT.
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On January 25 2014 11:47 sagefreke wrote:
I'll never understand people's mentality of "your race was OP so now it's my race's turn to be OP." Why not have a fun and balanced game? It's no fun winning just because you made the right units.
I'm honestly for all of these changes. At this point in HotS, it would be better to change the game so it's more fun to play (and watch) since DK has already released league results showing near 50% win rates.
SC2 needs to be fun. The only fun matchup for me is ZvT.
You don't like TvT? That's the epitome of SC2. I'll stay Terran even if it doesn't get buffed because I'll get to play TvT <3
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On January 25 2014 12:20 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2014 11:47 sagefreke wrote:
I'll never understand people's mentality of "your race was OP so now it's my race's turn to be OP." Why not have a fun and balanced game? It's no fun winning just because you made the right units.
I'm honestly for all of these changes. At this point in HotS, it would be better to change the game so it's more fun to play (and watch) since DK has already released league results showing near 50% win rates.
SC2 needs to be fun. The only fun matchup for me is ZvT. You don't like TvT? That's the epitome of SC2. I'll stay Terran even if it doesn't get buffed because I'll get to play TvT <3
The only problem is that it's 1/100 games on ladder T-T
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On January 25 2014 13:39 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2014 12:20 plogamer wrote:On January 25 2014 11:47 sagefreke wrote:
I'll never understand people's mentality of "your race was OP so now it's my race's turn to be OP." Why not have a fun and balanced game? It's no fun winning just because you made the right units.
I'm honestly for all of these changes. At this point in HotS, it would be better to change the game so it's more fun to play (and watch) since DK has already released league results showing near 50% win rates.
SC2 needs to be fun. The only fun matchup for me is ZvT. You don't like TvT? That's the epitome of SC2. I'll stay Terran even if it doesn't get buffed because I'll get to play TvT <3 The only problem is that it's 1/100 games on ladder T-T
I've had 3 out of my last 3 games in silver be TvT, and better opponents than I used to play against in Diamond  Thanx blizz for the ladder mess.
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On January 25 2014 11:47 sagefreke wrote:
I'll never understand people's mentality of "your race was OP so now it's my race's turn to be OP." Why not have a fun and balanced game? It's no fun winning just because you made the right units.
I'm honestly for all of these changes. At this point in HotS, it would be better to change the game so it's more fun to play (and watch) since DK has already released league results showing near 50% win rates.
SC2 needs to be fun. The only fun matchup for me is ZvT.
I'm sorry your enjoyment of the game is so shallow, if you can't enjoy every matchup for what it is that's nobody's fault but your own. Maybe you should attempt to expand your knowledge of how the other matchups work and perhaps you will come to enjoy them.
Anybody saying "your race is OP so now it's our turn to be OP" is just as ignorant as the people who leave games telling people to "fuck off protoss OP" even though they made several major mistakes during the game.
And I would expect Terran players to be a little more relaxed about the balance riots seeing as how knee-jerk reactions to the widow mine in TvZ has lead to Zerg being much more dominate in the matchup. Right around when that patch was implemented we noticed a lot of Zerg players already figuring out how to play against it and doing quite well, but since the patch widow mines have pretty much disappeared. I'm not complaining because it's lead to some much different compositions in the matchup which I think is a good thing, but I think that could've happened on it's own without completely nerfing the widow mine into obscurity.
All i'm saying is that the only thing that's happened since this sudden "protoss op" madness is the Oracle speed buff, and I seriously doubt that buff alone has suddenly lead to Terran players being unable to compete in the matchup. But when you examine what's been going on in the matchup for several months now, Terran players are still doing some of the same exact builds. Being that predictable is such an advantage no matter what the matchup that it's no wonder Protoss players have been dominating recently. Yet, when I see a Terran player actually switch things up, be a little more creative, or just straight up try different openers while keeping the same general concepts, they have actually been really successful.
I think the proposed changes are good and a step in the right direction. But everyone who says they aren't going to make a difference is just being greedy and unappreciative. I seriously doubt any of you have even played on the balance test map yet, either. I'd love for them to make some of these changes and lets just see where it goes. If seemingly "useless" nerfs/buffs like the widow mine, Oracle speed, Roach Burrow, Siege Tank fire rate make this big of a difference in the meta, I am very interested to see how these will change it from how it is currently.
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On January 25 2014 17:47 ArTiFaKs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2014 11:47 sagefreke wrote:
I'll never understand people's mentality of "your race was OP so now it's my race's turn to be OP." Why not have a fun and balanced game? It's no fun winning just because you made the right units.
I'm honestly for all of these changes. At this point in HotS, it would be better to change the game so it's more fun to play (and watch) since DK has already released league results showing near 50% win rates.
SC2 needs to be fun. The only fun matchup for me is ZvT. I'm sorry your enjoyment of the game is so shallow, if you can't enjoy every matchup for what it is that's nobody's fault but your own. Maybe you should attempt to expand your knowledge of how the other matchups work and perhaps you will come to enjoy them. Anybody saying "your race is OP so now it's our turn to be OP" is just as ignorant as the people who leave games telling people to "fuck off protoss OP" even though they made several major mistakes during the game. And I would expect Terran players to be a little more relaxed about the balance riots seeing as how knee-jerk reactions to the widow mine in TvZ has lead to Zerg being much more dominate in the matchup. Right around when that patch was implemented we noticed a lot of Zerg players already figuring out how to play against it and doing quite well, but since the patch widow mines have pretty much disappeared. I'm not complaining because it's lead to some much different compositions in the matchup which I think is a good thing, but I think that could've happened on it's own without completely nerfing the widow mine into obscurity. All i'm saying is that the only thing that's happened since this sudden "protoss op" madness is the Oracle speed buff, and I seriously doubt that buff alone has suddenly lead to Terran players being unable to compete in the matchup. But when you examine what's been going on in the matchup for several months now, Terran players are still doing some of the same exact builds. Being that predictable is such an advantage no matter what the matchup that it's no wonder Protoss players have been dominating recently. Yet, when I see a Terran player actually switch things up, be a little more creative, or just straight up try different openers while keeping the same general concepts, they have actually been really successful. I think the proposed changes are good and a step in the right direction. But everyone who says they aren't going to make a difference is just being greedy and unappreciative. I seriously doubt any of you have even played on the balance test map yet, either. I'd love for them to make some of these changes and lets just see where it goes. If seemingly "useless" nerfs/buffs like the widow mine, Oracle speed, Roach Burrow, Siege Tank fire rate make this big of a difference in the meta, I am very interested to see how these will change it from how it is currently.
There's also a mechanism in any RTS that functions in the same pattern any time.
The aggressive race figures out timing after timing after timing and the defensive race (Protoss in PvZ, Zerg in TvZ, Protoss in ZvP) adapts to defend.
Terran had some good options back in the day, nerf nerf nerf, Terran has a viable unit set of 1/3rth it's arsenal. There's no more room to play with stuff because Protoss learned how to abuse the MSC and be greedy behind it.
Thus, Terran winrates plummet (and Zerg is starting to fall back too, with the exception of really poor maps) because all aggressive options are shut down. Oracle buff is just added insult to injury -> It's a metagame change.
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On January 25 2014 07:31 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2014 06:27 Frex wrote:On January 25 2014 05:58 lowercase wrote:
Terran winrates are below 50%, but they've been above 50% for the vast majority of the whole life of SC2. It's natural to have peaks and troughs if the balance is hovering around 50% winrate. I don't think Terran is really underpowered, except maybe versus early game P due to MSC. You can look at win rates as much as you want but currently terran is so underrepresented that it is beyond retarded. Protoss are doubling, tripling, quadrupling, quintupling, and the heck, even hextupling terran in representation in so many places. Just looking at winrates is delusional when there is so many more variables. You forget when GSL had 20 Terrans in it at the peak of Terran. These things happen. Brood War had no patches for many many years and the metagame kept evolving on its own.
Actually, there was a difference between back then and today. In 2011, it was only in Code S that terran was dominating. In the foreign scene and at the ladder, terran actually underpermored slightly. Today, terran is underperforming heavily everywhere.
- Ladder = Way underrepresented (source Sc2ranks) in higher leagues (which is the real number you want to look at if you balance by ladder statistics. W/R's doesn't matter as they always will go towards 50-50.
- Aliguac numbers tells us that there are a lot fewer competitive terrna players than protosses and zergs (once again win-rates aren't very important here as they eventually will go towards 50-50 as well.
- GSL ofc.
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On January 25 2014 21:42 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2014 07:31 DinoMight wrote:On January 25 2014 06:27 Frex wrote:On January 25 2014 05:58 lowercase wrote:
Terran winrates are below 50%, but they've been above 50% for the vast majority of the whole life of SC2. It's natural to have peaks and troughs if the balance is hovering around 50% winrate. I don't think Terran is really underpowered, except maybe versus early game P due to MSC. You can look at win rates as much as you want but currently terran is so underrepresented that it is beyond retarded. Protoss are doubling, tripling, quadrupling, quintupling, and the heck, even hextupling terran in representation in so many places. Just looking at winrates is delusional when there is so many more variables. You forget when GSL had 20 Terrans in it at the peak of Terran. These things happen. Brood War had no patches for many many years and the metagame kept evolving on its own. Actually, there was a difference between back then and today. In 2011, it was only in Code S that terran was dominated. In the foreign scene and at the ladder, terran actually underpermored slightly. Today, terran is underperforming heavily everywhere. - Ladder = Way underrepresented (source Sc2ranls) in higher leagues (which is the real number you want to look at if you balance by ladder statistics. W/R's doesn't matter as they always will go towards 50-50. - Aliguac numbers tells us that there are a lot fewer competitive terrna players than protosses and zergs (once again win-rates aren't very important here as they eventually will go towards 50-50 as well. - GSL ofc.
Broodwar also had decent maps and tournaments were willing to extensively test those maps. And the pool changed a lot.
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On January 25 2014 08:07 tadL wrote:Still no patch that gives Zerg and Protoss the same advantage of friendly fire like terrans have? 
is ur post supposed to make sense?
its exactly the opposite. zerg and protoss have the advantage because they dont receive friendly fire from almost all of their splash units and can just go yolo swag a-move with it (even storm isnt really a thread to zealot/stalker compared to marine/ling instant death).
on the other hand terran receives critical damage from tank/mine and hsm!
it would only be fair to make fungal / coloss friendly fire aswell so kids would have to micro their shit the same way terrans have to do!
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I think a reasonable nerf for photon overcharge would be to make it an upgrade for the mothership core to be able to access the use of it as aand as well a time warp 150/150 for photon over charge and 100/100 for time warp. I think by doing so, a protoss player would think three or four times before committing to an all in and if it fails they will be punished by it. right now their gimicky all ins and cheese is saved by the photon overcharge and they are getting away with way to many risks, which is not fair.
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On January 25 2014 17:47 ArTiFaKs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2014 11:47 sagefreke wrote:
I'll never understand people's mentality of "your race was OP so now it's my race's turn to be OP." Why not have a fun and balanced game? It's no fun winning just because you made the right units.
I'm honestly for all of these changes. At this point in HotS, it would be better to change the game so it's more fun to play (and watch) since DK has already released league results showing near 50% win rates.
SC2 needs to be fun. The only fun matchup for me is ZvT. I'm sorry your enjoyment of the game is so shallow, if you can't enjoy every matchup for what it is that's nobody's fault but your own. Maybe you should attempt to expand your knowledge of how the other matchups work and perhaps you will come to enjoy them. Anybody saying "your race is OP so now it's our turn to be OP" is just as ignorant as the people who leave games telling people to "fuck off protoss OP" even though they made several major mistakes during the game. And I would expect Terran players to be a little more relaxed about the balance riots seeing as how knee-jerk reactions to the widow mine in TvZ has lead to Zerg being much more dominate in the matchup. Right around when that patch was implemented we noticed a lot of Zerg players already figuring out how to play against it and doing quite well, but since the patch widow mines have pretty much disappeared. I'm not complaining because it's lead to some much different compositions in the matchup which I think is a good thing, but I think that could've happened on it's own without completely nerfing the widow mine into obscurity. All i'm saying is that the only thing that's happened since this sudden "protoss op" madness is the Oracle speed buff, and I seriously doubt that buff alone has suddenly lead to Terran players being unable to compete in the matchup. But when you examine what's been going on in the matchup for several months now, Terran players are still doing some of the same exact builds. Being that predictable is such an advantage no matter what the matchup that it's no wonder Protoss players have been dominating recently. Yet, when I see a Terran player actually switch things up, be a little more creative, or just straight up try different openers while keeping the same general concepts, they have actually been really successful. I think the proposed changes are good and a step in the right direction. But everyone who says they aren't going to make a difference is just being greedy and unappreciative. I seriously doubt any of you have even played on the balance test map yet, either. I'd love for them to make some of these changes and lets just see where it goes. If seemingly "useless" nerfs/buffs like the widow mine, Oracle speed, Roach Burrow, Siege Tank fire rate make this big of a difference in the meta, I am very interested to see how these will change it from how it is currently.
It isn't just the oracle buffs... It is the map pool as well and also Protoss figuring out different fake blink all ins that the Terran has no efficient/reliable way to find out about until it is too late.
Why do you think Terrans are doing the exact same builds? Terrans have a huge variety of openings in TvT with fast expand into bio, bio tank, mech or banshee openings, raven openings, first tank pushes, hellions drops.
And in ZvT, there is heavy hellion openings, 4M, mech, early blue flame into bio, banshee, etc.
It doesn't make sense that all Terrans would only be so stubborn in one match up and refuse to adapt. It is more probable that the match up is setup that those specific builds are still gives the Terran the best chance to win. Sure, maybe they can catch the Protoss off guard with a mine or hellion drop and win, but it is likely not reliable ( it is like saying Ruin's build on Daedulus won so it is a valid strategy for PvZ on that map.). It just isn't a long term solution.
It is like when Zergs were losing to 4M, 95% still chose to muta ling bling? Why? Likely because the alternatives were worse. Remember, we are talking about Korean pros that play 10 hours a day and are in team houses, they have likely tried tons of builds that we haven't even dreamed about.
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On January 26 2014 00:14 Riner1212 wrote:
I think a reasonable nerf for photon overcharge would be to make it an upgrade for the mothership core to be able to access the use of it as aand as well a time warp 150/150 for photon over charge and 100/100 for time warp. I think by doing so, a protoss player would think three or four times before committing to an all in and if it fails they will be punished by it. right now their gimicky all ins and cheese is saved by the photon overcharge and they are getting away with way to many risks, which is not fair.
This makes absolutely no sense and defeats the entire purpose of having the mothership core. Time warp as an upgrade? Sure. But photon overcharge is basically mandatory for Protoss to survive against Terran drops because none of the basic units can keep up with boosted medivacs. Take away photon overcharge and Protoss would have to open phoenix or blink every game just to survive. We've all seen games where Protoss loses their mothership core and then proceeds to die to a Terran simply boosting back and forth between bases and the Protoss gets completely ripped apart.
Seriously, that would be like saying "Terran's all-ins are too good, so we're going to make bunkers require additional tech to get". It's completely unreasonable and does not address the issue of all-ins in the least and just messes with the ability to play defensive in any way.
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On January 25 2014 05:58 lowercase wrote:
Terran winrates are below 50%, but they've been above 50% for the vast majority of the whole life of SC2. It's natural to have peaks and troughs if the balance is hovering around 50% winrate. I don't think Terran is really underpowered, except maybe versus early game P due to MSC.
And the early game is what is causing the problem. If anything, early game balance is the most important issue because any advantages gained in the early game is magnified as the game goes on. Good players are able to snowball their lead via getting ahead in Eco, or tech, or upgrades or trading armies more effectively.
The Korean pros are so good that slight timing changes make a huge difference. Have you seen games where the Zerg loses 3 drones to reapers in the early game? Although the game doesn't end right away, the Zerg still has an almost impossible task to overcome the lead.
Another example is something like Daedulus, you could argue that one you get to mid/late game, the map layer doesn't matter in PvZ as P is no longer as dependent on chokes once game gets to that stage. But that doesn't make the map balance because Zerg is able to exert so much pressure early that they are well in the lead when mid game comes.
That is the problem with TvP. Terrans used to have a window between stim/medivacs and Protoss haven't enough AoE that they can force trades (or drop) the Protoss so their Eco doesn't get out of hand. But with the maps and Protoss early game strength, the windows pretty much doesn't exist anymore and that is why Terrans are struggling in the match up.
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
Not sure if David Kim's new post has been posted
Thank you for your feedback. We've also been gathering a lot of pro feedback, and as always, there's a lot of both positive and negative. However, because we're not trying to patch any of these changes to the live game and just want to test them out on the balance test map, we'll go ahead with these changes.
That doesn't mean we didn't take any of the feedback into consideration and we did hear a lot of points that we also have concerns on, but let's make sure to keep an eye out for these various concerns during the testing phase.
Please remember we're just testing things so we can always dial things back, remove changes completely, and/or try different changes during the testing phase.
Thank you.
-David Kim
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On January 26 2014 01:20 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2014 00:14 Riner1212 wrote:
I think a reasonable nerf for photon overcharge would be to make it an upgrade for the mothership core to be able to access the use of it as aand as well a time warp 150/150 for photon over charge and 100/100 for time warp. I think by doing so, a protoss player would think three or four times before committing to an all in and if it fails they will be punished by it. right now their gimicky all ins and cheese is saved by the photon overcharge and they are getting away with way to many risks, which is not fair. This makes absolutely no sense and defeats the entire purpose of having the mothership core. Time warp as an upgrade? Sure. But photon overcharge is basically mandatory for Protoss to survive against Terran drops because none of the basic units can keep up with boosted medivacs. Take away photon overcharge and Protoss would have to open phoenix or blink every game just to survive. We've all seen games where Protoss loses their mothership core and then proceeds to die to a Terran simply boosting back and forth between bases and the Protoss gets completely ripped apart. Seriously, that would be like saying "Terran's all-ins are too good, so we're going to make bunkers require additional tech to get". It's completely unreasonable and does not address the issue of all-ins in the least and just messes with the ability to play defensive in any way.
Have the photon overcharge be an upgrade on the cybernetics core, it shouldnt be more than 100/100 though and even 50/50 might be reasonable. Make the research time short enough that it will easily be finished by medivacs hit assuming the protoss is doing a standard macro build. If the protoss is doing something like a blink all in they might skip the upgrade which will give terrans an opportunity for a stronger counter-attack if the all-in fails.
The problem is that PO is needed at a certain point of the game (vs medivacs) but it also creates really dumb situations where protoss players fail early attacks but the terran can do nothing to punish them. Its just a little too strong of an ability because building the MSC isn't a choice in the first place.
But who am I kidding, they will cut PO by 10 seconds and maybe start fixing the match-up with LOTV beta at the earliest.
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I predict the 25 gas hydras phase will last two hours. The rest doesn't do enough to nerf blink openings or, more generally, to make Protoss early game less versatile and Terran early game less dangerous. A specific blink nerf is needed (sight range nerf mandatory) and if it were up to me oracle speed would be reverted too, but I think Blizzard is too stubborn to ever admit they made a mistake and will prefer to patch around a mistake rather than revert a change that was totally unneeded.
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On January 26 2014 01:30 juicyjames wrote:Not sure if David Kim's new post has been postedShow nested quote +Thank you for your feedback. We've also been gathering a lot of pro feedback, and as always, there's a lot of both positive and negative. However, because we're not trying to patch any of these changes to the live game and just want to test them out on the balance test map, we'll go ahead with these changes.
That doesn't mean we didn't take any of the feedback into consideration and we did hear a lot of points that we also have concerns on, but let's make sure to keep an eye out for these various concerns during the testing phase.
Please remember we're just testing things so we can always dial things back, remove changes completely, and/or try different changes during the testing phase.
Thank you.
-David Kim
That was a lot of words to simply say: "don't worry, we're testing it."
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"You could even open a testmap in the arcade mode where players can test their own idears with others (let it be GMs) in the way that one can set the damage or damagetypes of all units the way they want it to (even new upgrades, costs or times). Imagine GMs testing fun stuff or real cool idears there and you could observe it - permanently. You could even add a voting system where diamond, master and gm players could give feedback to a list of "top-changes" set in a list where people place their "builds" which they think adresses recent (or permanent) problems (top changes at the top of a list to make them most visible like for arcade maps). The community could do all the work for you in a democratic way and you guys would be spared from all the hate and insults. Sure there would be a lot of bulls-hit but taking only diamond+ players into account and given a voting system all the s-hit would disapear somewere at the end of the list ... you could still see into it and decide what you like. ... Just an idea."
read in battle.net forum. i think its a great idea!
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EPT
