EPT1/24 Balance test map - Page 37
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Constructive criticism is welcome, but no mindless SC2/Developer bashing in this thread. | ||
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lowercase
Canada1047 Posts
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Tossim111
United States246 Posts
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Ravomat
Germany422 Posts
On January 25 2014 04:49 il_Cattivo wrote: Well they still have hallucinated phoenixes. Is MoCore really needed for scouting purposes? You can still move out on the map with a ground mocore and recall without any problems. So Protoss map presence shouldnt be hurt from this change. Given how strong P currently is, probably not. The problem at hand is that it's a band-aid. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26357 Posts
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On January 25 2014 06:18 Wombat_NI wrote: Also, I am usually right about these things. Anyone else think that K Terrans are going mech vZ because a transition to their 3/3 airball is a lot smoother No, few of them are actually doing this. All the games have been a variation of harass -> macro -> push (try not to lose to anything gay), kind of like their bio builds, just this one is a whole different set of units and nuances. | ||
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Frex
Finland888 Posts
On January 25 2014 05:58 lowercase wrote: Terran winrates are below 50%, but they've been above 50% for the vast majority of the whole life of SC2. It's natural to have peaks and troughs if the balance is hovering around 50% winrate. I don't think Terran is really underpowered, except maybe versus early game P due to MSC. You can look at win rates as much as you want but currently terran is so underrepresented that it is beyond retarded. Protoss are doubling, tripling, quadrupling, quintupling, and the heck, even hextupling terran in representation in so many places. Just looking at winrates is delusional when there is so many more variables. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26357 Posts
On January 25 2014 06:26 iaguz wrote: No, few of them are actually doing this. All the games have been a variation of harass -> macro -> push (try not to lose to anything gay), kind of like their bio builds, just this one is a whole different set of units and nuances. Well yeah, sorry I'll rephrase. They're going mech specifically to do that transition. It's the overarching gameplan that they have in mind. There have been games which have ended before that due to Zergs dealing with the mech comps badly before SkyTerran was upon them. If they work out the kinks I foresee some very, very sad Zergs a month or two down the line. While I'm lamentably addicted to theorycrafting, I don't know how you actually kill that airball once it's acquired with 3/3 | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 25 2014 06:30 Wombat_NI wrote: Well yeah, sorry I'll rephrase. They're going mech specifically to do that transition. It's the overarching gameplan that they have in mind. There have been games which have ended before that due to Zergs dealing with the mech comps badly before SkyTerran was upon them. If they work out the kinks I foresee some very, very sad Zergs a month or two down the line. While I'm lamentably addicted to theorycrafting, I don't know how you actually kill that airball once it's acquired with 3/3 If they wouldn't have a strong endgame style in mind, it wouldn't be a macro gameplan, but just some timing. The way to kill that airball is like DRG played vs flash, with a little less bad luck and (much) more statics and Viper usage. | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On January 25 2014 06:30 Wombat_NI wrote: Well yeah, sorry I'll rephrase. They're going mech specifically to do that transition. It's the overarching gameplan that they have in mind. There have been games which have ended before that due to Zergs dealing with the mech comps badly before SkyTerran was upon them. If they work out the kinks I foresee some very, very sad Zergs a month or two down the line. While I'm lamentably addicted to theorycrafting, I don't know how you actually kill that airball once it's acquired with 3/3 Watch Goswser vs Lucifron. Now translate that to Alterzim. Have fun. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26357 Posts
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On January 25 2014 06:30 Wombat_NI wrote: Well yeah, sorry I'll rephrase. They're going mech specifically to do that transition. It's the overarching gameplan that they have in mind. There have been games which have ended before that due to Zergs dealing with the mech comps badly before SkyTerran was upon them. If they work out the kinks I foresee some very, very sad Zergs a month or two down the line. While I'm lamentably addicted to theorycrafting, I don't know how you actually kill that airball once it's acquired with 3/3 Sort of but I'd suspect not. The more layers you add to a strategy, particularly one as fragile as mech play, the more chances you give for it to fuck up and the harder it is to work out. Playing turtley mech into air is hard due to swarm hosts and vipers and a lot of maps not supporting boring split map wait all day styles of play. Opening with heavy harassment into 3 base and 2 armouries into a 2/2 tank thor hellbat push is much easier. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On January 25 2014 05:19 Crownlol wrote: Oh god, now the Terrans are even complaining about other Terrans! ROFL! TvZ is fine. Honestly I think if every single map in the pool wasn't so easy to Blink all-in on, 90% of these probems would go away. You wouldn't need to nerf the mothership core. The 14 vision is REALLY REALLY helpful in PvP honestly. You can send it in to their base before hallucination or observer is available to see what their tech is and be able to get away without using a recall depending on their building placement. If it had shorter range you'd need to fly further in. So you'd fly in, see the 3 gate + blink coming, and then die to it because you blew your energy on recall or your MsC died. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On January 25 2014 06:27 Frex wrote: You can look at win rates as much as you want but currently terran is so underrepresented that it is beyond retarded. Protoss are doubling, tripling, quadrupling, quintupling, and the heck, even hextupling terran in representation in so many places. Just looking at winrates is delusional when there is so many more variables. You forget when GSL had 20 Terrans in it at the peak of Terran. These things happen. Brood War had no patches for many many years and the metagame kept evolving on its own. | ||
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ImperialFist
790 Posts
On January 25 2014 07:31 DinoMight wrote: You forget when GSL had 20 Terrans in it at the peak of Terran. These things happen. Brood War had no patches for many many years and the metagame kept evolving on its own. :D lol heheheh rofl then terran got NerfHammered, metagame eh? nice try  | ||
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oxxo
988 Posts
On January 25 2014 07:31 DinoMight wrote: You forget when GSL had 20 Terrans in it at the peak of Terran. These things happen. Brood War had no patches for many many years and the metagame kept evolving on its own. ? It wasn't a shift in meta. It was a direct result of many Terran nerfs and many Protoss buffs along with map changes that changed things. | ||
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TW
Poland255 Posts
Because Terrans were slightly OP at the beginning or we had Broodlord Infestor era for couple of months it means the game should be dominated by Protos right now just to make things equal? So just stop complaining about the past and try to work out the solution how to improve the balance, cause suggested changes surely wont solve anything. Lets hope the balance team for once will listen to the community. | ||
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tadL
Croatia679 Posts
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
The trouble is that Blizzard seem keen to keep all unit costs divisible by 25. One nice upside to hydralisks costing less gas would be that tanks could probably be allowed to be improve further. BW hydras cost 7/25 for the same number of hit points as SC2 hydralisks that cost 100/50, so if they don't want to improve hydralisk hit points (perhaps they wish to ensure that Psionic Storm always brings hydras to their knees with 1 life from regeneration?), a lowered gas cost might indirectly help to allow other changes to occur for other races. There might not currently be enough reason for Blizzard (in their minds) to justify buffing aspects of the other races until something like this change is made. I think it's a good thing to test, although I wish they would test (even) stronger tanks at the same time. If (tank-based) mech is to be buffed, this would be a good time to test it. When buffing tanks though, you'd always want to keep in mind that there's currently a nice dynamic where sieged tanks one-shot 0 carapace zerglings, one-shot any zerglings when the tanks have +1 Vehicle Weapons but take two shots to kill the zerglings if the tanks have no weapon upgrades while the zerglings have +1 (or more) carapace. I think that dynamic should always be kept. Another thing to consider if they wanted to make them cheaper is whether it's more appropriate to free up some minerals or some gas for spending on other zerg units. Currently it seems that rather than improving blinding cloud to make vipers more common (they have considered helping vipers out before, though their suggested change was terrible for various reasons), they can help Vipers and Infestors to be more affordable than they currently are when you are already getting hydralisks. EDIT: I agree (at least in theory, before testing) with the below suggestion for Hydralisk damage and cooldown to change from 12 +1 per upgrade at 0.83a/second, for 14.46-18.07 DPS to something like 14 +2 per upgrade at 0.9333a/second, for 15.00-21.43 DPS or 15 +2 per upgrade at 1.0a/second, for 15.00-21.00 DPS. A slightly slower cooldown also helps micromanagement with hydralisks to be a little more useful in you may waste less shots, because they fire more slowly but hit harder with each missile. I also (still, as I've felt for a long time that it should at least be tested) agree that buffing viking damage to 14 would be fine, at least to test and especially if a hydralisk buff is already on the table. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
Hydras have always been a terrible investment considering their cost — particularly before they had the speed upgrade. (compared to a unit like the stalker they are disadvantaged in many significant ways and advantaged in virtually none) That said, halving the gas cost seems like a very inappropriate thing to do. Instead they should be given a free range upgrade or +15 health or +1 damage or something like that. Personally I think that increasing the attack damage to 14 or so and reducing the attack speed appropriately, and giving a +2 attack upgrade effect instead of +1 would be a good change (same with ground-mode vikings) | ||
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