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Constructive criticism is welcome, but no mindless SC2/Developer bashing in this thread. | ||
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il_Cattivo
Turkey54 Posts
I do not think it will affect pvp that much since you will still have PO but using it on two nexi will be slightly trickier because mothership core should be positoned more carefully to move back and forth between bases. Other abilities of the MsC should not be too much affected by this change as well. | ||
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SiroKO
France721 Posts
Let's have a brief history lesson. Terran in late WOL was bad. Not as bad at it is now, but the Terran race was performing the worse by a significant margin. Therefore, T got strong new HOTS additions. Possibly the strongest. These were (mainly) : medivac boost, hellbat drop-harass, widow-mines fields. These 3 "buffs" allowed Terran to do far better in HOTS. And as Z&P were still trying to figure out counters, T was logically dominating early HOTS. However, Z&P slowly adapted their playstyles, and both hellbat drop and wm ended up being nerfed hard, to a point where it is questionnable if T should still use them in a standard game. Thus, in the end, what serious reliable HOTS Terran buffs remains ? Medivac boost... An harassing ability. In terms of raw standard brute strength : nothing. So, in resume, Terran, who was doing the worse in late WOL, has now the worse and more limited HOTS additions... You can't rationally expect the race to not perform bad. TLDR:When the worse WOL race, ends up having the worse HOTS additions (thanks to iterative nerfs), it will have the worse HOTS results. | ||
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ImperialFist
790 Posts
ghost buff is decent I guess, I rarely make ghosts unless I am forced into it by defensive templar play, i just churn out more bio in the midgame, since using ghosts effectively is too hard for casual players (below mid GM), until you have them en mass and can emp spam like a madman. I don't know if you guys noticed but Bio vs ling-bane-muta is dying out, it's way too hard to play MMMM vs zerg, people, me included fall back on the no skill mech, take 4 bases with siege tanks and turrets while building up the retarded mass raven-viking army and then if the zerg does not go "Full NA boring mode (which is the rights response)" and makes 100 spores with good viper usage and disgusting swarmhosts then terran just auto-wins. I am ashamed when I win games like that and it shames us all that this kind of design exists. The widow mine nerf was really really bad, I can't believe that you Zergs allowed it to happen without objection. tt | ||
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fighter2_40
United States420 Posts
Only good suggestion is overcharge to 125 energy | ||
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jerudd
11 Posts
On January 25 2014 02:22 SiroKO wrote: It seems that some patch-logs/declarations/facts have receded into the mists of time. Let's have a brief history lesson. Terran in late WOL was bad. Not as bad at it is now, but the Terran race was performing the worse by a significant margin. Therefore, T got strong new HOTS additions. Possibly the strongest. These were (mainly) : medivac boost, hellbat drop-harass, widow-mines fields. These 3 "buffs" allowed Terran to do far better in HOTS. And as Z&P were still trying to figure out counters, T was logically dominating early HOTS. However, Z&P slowly adapted their playstyles, and both hellbat drop and wm ended up being nerfed hard, to a point where it is questionnable if T should still use them in a standard game. Thus, in the end, what serious reliable HOTS Terran buffs remains ? Medivac boost... An harassing ability. In terms of raw standard brute strength : nothing. So, in resume, Terran, who was doing the worse in late WOL, has now the worse and more limited HOTS additions... You can't rationally expect the race to not perform bad. TLDR:When the worse WOL race, ends up having the worse HOTS additions (thanks to iterative nerfs), it will have the worse HOTS results. I think the logic is strong with this one. I mean how do you skip this and start buffing hydra / tempest. The oracle buff that came out of nowhere, saying that oracles with higher speed would be useful late game. I think it has been proven, that increased movement speed only got used to harass even more in the early game. IF the idea was to make a more skill requiring unit, the increased speed should have come at an equal decrease in damage.. No brainer right? Oracle does not require any skill to make an impact to the game to a point where it is over. Jesus i think that, if the balance team would just give the power to the community, to create test maps and give us the power to vote for the best changes and add them to the live version, we would seriously be better off. All you need is a freaking A to B to C logic and good systematic tracking of the severral changes made over the previous patches. Blizzard has gone from a point, where patches do not help the balance, to a point where they freaking create more imbalances and destroy the game even more. Anyone could do this job better. Before making any new changes, we need to rethink the steps, that got us this far. | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
Some of the design is broken at its core. Look at hellbat for instance. Supposedly it's designed for TvP, but it synergizes so poorly with a bio army. Bio need to move around the map and needs to move in combat. An unit that can't move will get picked off for free. | ||
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Tossim111
United States246 Posts
I do not understand these annual balance updates. Even if I voted for ghost its very unnecessary; you should not push for mech especially since you made it not work since the beginning with the idea of the immortal; its fine how it is now as a stylistic choice. Opt for mech if you want to. Even one of the most hardcore mech users Avilo states he goes bio when he wants to win but still is known through mech and does it very often on ladder with arguably much success. The mcore energy nerf seems well tbh because timewarp does turn most pvz matches to shit when I see it coupled with the immortal push; but I dont think it is largely a worry. Photon cannon's time does not matter too much for pvz and tvp IMO, and for you to change that will effect pvp as many builds are early aggression and p barely handles it with standard vs aggressive play as is. However the dual casting of photon overcharge makes Terran aggression in the mid to late game almost impossible as the only target would be to engage the late game Protoss army. I think a proper fix may be having a cool down on the ability, so atleast Terran's drop to a base will deal SOME economic damage; 10 seconds of marines/marauders is enough force as long as it kills probes are even having them taken off the mineral line for some time and split the Protoss army. The problem with the mothership core in pvt is... sometimes you dont even have to think to throw down photon overcharge on two bases. It just automatically shuts down light drops in 2 areas allowing access to the very strong late game protoss compositions because they are untouched. Atleast you can think, "Hey he only has 2 medivacs worth of units dropping, I better send a few units to deal with it and save my energy in case he attacks me elsewhere." The hydralisk buff is too drastic as well, from what I know atm, it has two roles: as one of the bread and butter for roach heavy compositions, and usually anti-air for zvz in the early to middle game transition. The effect in zvz may have players stop going mutalisks and instead go for roach hydra infestor every single game. Opening mutalisks now is a deeper strategy and I wouldn't like for it to go. Let's not mention the humungous difference pvz and tvz will be. Z will bust through T's 3rd with ease because of the hydra count and early max out; then can transition out into infestor/blord with the enormous gas saved all the while Terran only has 1 starport with tank and MMM composition. | ||
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Sufinsil
United States760 Posts
Need some moving shot Banshee! | ||
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dgwow
Canada1024 Posts
Have you seen the number of terrans in Code S? I hope you understand  Signed, dgwow On a serious note, I haven't read through all of the thread but can someone who has played the balance test map give me their thoughts? I only see people giving their suggestions but no real feedback on what the changes feel like. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On January 25 2014 02:13 Tossim111 wrote: Actually I think the only thing that ghost buff is going to do is just end games quick. It does not help late game at all. It doesn't respond to the blink all in. Its just opening up a huge window for terran; although parting's 3 base build vs flash looks imba and may be the new meta so i dont know how it would work in that position. PartinG's games vs. everyone look imba. He's one of the best players on Earth. I just don't think Flash reacted properly. HerO tried the same build against him and Flash annihilated him. | ||
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Tossim111
United States246 Posts
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Naphal
Germany2099 Posts
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
On January 25 2014 00:44 cptjibberjabber wrote: designing maps that dont work with blink all ins might be the best and easiest way to balance TvP, since most of the problems come from 1-base blink, 2-base blink or 3-base blink. And we have a winner! This is all that's needed. | ||
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pmp10
3354 Posts
On January 25 2014 02:41 architecture wrote: Some of the design is broken at its core. Look at hellbat for instance. Supposedly it's designed for TvP, but it synergizes so poorly with a bio army. Bio need to move around the map and needs to move in combat. An unit that can't move will get picked off for free. Hellbats weren't supposed to synergize with bio but enable mech TvP. It's only when mech plan failed they started reworking hellbats into other roles. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
I wouldn't ALWAYS make them, but they have their uses. I think they have VASTLY improved mech vs. WoL. BF Hellbats annihilate Zealots and they are tanky enough to sponge a lot of Immortal shots as well. Mech might still not be 100% viable, but it's definitely been buffed greatly by the addition of the Hellbat. | ||
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nachtkap
Germany195 Posts
I'd be on board if this damage buff was vs. defensive structures only. A faster recharge time after they hit a structure might also accomplish this. Similar to keeping a old void ray charged. It would require more micro and thus lead to a higher skill cap. | ||
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w3c.TruE
Czech Republic1055 Posts
Also i think, that Terran need some buff against Zerg. Since WM nerf, Terrans are slaughtered badly in TvZ. Terran need some love in both they non-miror matchups IMO. | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
Hellbats especially drop off in late game battles with Colo+storm+timewarp. They get mopped up instantly sitting in the front lines. | ||
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Ravomat
Germany422 Posts
On January 25 2014 02:21 il_Cattivo wrote: Regarding Blink-Allins: Why don't they just make mothership core a ground unit? To my knowledge, blink all-ins were not a problem in tvp because robo tech was required and hence all-ins were weaker. I do not think it will affect pvp that much since you will still have PO but using it on two nexi will be slightly trickier because mothership core should be positoned more carefully to move back and forth between bases. Other abilities of the MsC should not be too much affected by this change as well. When the MSC was conceived it was supposed to help protoss in 3 ways. The first one obviously is defense because sentry based play is fragile and expensive. Then it should help them get some map presence with recall. And lastly impossible to scout anything in any matchup before observers so they made the MSC a flying unit with 14 vision range. 3 more than vipers, medivacs and supposedly all other air units. I didn't check the rest. I don't know what happened to the idea that it's attached to a nexus and can swap between them but my guess is they thought it was a stupid idea. | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
On January 25 2014 03:45 w3c.TruE wrote: To balance TvP, Terran needs unnerfed Hellbat + proposed Ghost buff + way less blink friendly maps (for example in Habitation Station blink all-ins are really weak). Also i think, that Terran need some buff against Zerg. Since WM nerf, Terrans are slaughtered badly in TvZ. Terran need some love in both they non-miror matchups IMO. Heh, wut? | ||
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