EPTIn SC2, you max out on 3 mining bases, compared to like 6 in BW. This makes it very difficult to capitalize on the immobility of mech. Not only does the Terran have far less territory to defend from harassment, it also means that the loss of a mining base completely destroys your economy. You can't take advantage of Terran slow-pushing over your third by fucking with him in that time because you'll lose if you lose that base. The fact is, if Mech is buffed so a Mech army is not cost-effectively attackable, Terran can deal an unrecoverable deathblow every game simply by sieging up the newest mining expansion of the Protoss. There's no trying to beat that with harassment or flanking. Terran could trade their main and natural for Protoss' third and still easily win the game, because that mech army can now beat all the units Protoss has remaining plus all the units they could produce with their remaining resources.
1/24 Balance test map - Page 33
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Constructive criticism is welcome, but no mindless SC2/Developer bashing in this thread. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
In SC2, you max out on 3 mining bases, compared to like 6 in BW. This makes it very difficult to capitalize on the immobility of mech. Not only does the Terran have far less territory to defend from harassment, it also means that the loss of a mining base completely destroys your economy. You can't take advantage of Terran slow-pushing over your third by fucking with him in that time because you'll lose if you lose that base. The fact is, if Mech is buffed so a Mech army is not cost-effectively attackable, Terran can deal an unrecoverable deathblow every game simply by sieging up the newest mining expansion of the Protoss. There's no trying to beat that with harassment or flanking. Terran could trade their main and natural for Protoss' third and still easily win the game, because that mech army can now beat all the units Protoss has remaining plus all the units they could produce with their remaining resources. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
On January 24 2014 19:04 DooMDash wrote: Everyone knows the Korean Terrans are best. I'm just sick of being punished for it. Korean Terrans are the best yet they are failing hard in GSL Right now LOL GM Race Distribution greatly favors toss in Korean server and all the other servers alike so yea while they are the best even they are faltering LOL Edit: Guy above me knows what he talking about.... I'm for a SC2 Style mech but not a BW style mech with the current game and eco it just would never work it will be OP or UP no matter what the change. So if an aggressive style was available that was able to be made viable then I think we should have it along with Bio options lol Last Edit I promise: I think if Protoss gets super oracle we should get Super Banshee and have the option to build turrets w/o ebay. I figure you would like that DK because it means making it faster possibly make " It gone plaid! " | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12559 Posts
edit: also is there a way to make it vs zerg buildings only? cause terran or toss buildings don't need to die faster to tempests. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12559 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On January 24 2014 22:03 Xequecal wrote: I really wish people would stop clamoring for Mech and let it die. Especially for TvP. BW-style Mech does not work at all in SC2, it's either crap or overpowered due to how the SC2 economy works. If the Mech army cannot be fought head on cost-effectively, as was the case in BW, it's simply overpowered. If it can be, it sucks, because it still comes with all those disadvantages. In SC2, you max out on 3 mining bases, compared to like 6 in BW. This makes it very difficult to capitalize on the immobility of mech. Not only does the Terran have far less territory to defend from harassment, it also means that the loss of a mining base completely destroys your economy. You can't take advantage of Terran slow-pushing over your third by fucking with him in that time because you'll lose if you lose that base. The fact is, if Mech is buffed so a Mech army is not cost-effectively attackable, Terran can deal an unrecoverable deathblow every game simply by sieging up the newest mining expansion of the Protoss. There's no trying to beat that with harassment or flanking. Terran could trade their main and natural for Protoss' third and still easily win the game, because that mech army can now beat all the units Protoss has remaining plus all the units they could produce with their remaining resources. Bullshit, protoss already functions in a manner where the other player needs to capitalize on their immobility. All people ask is them to make mech work on a similar level to that for the sake of diversity. Mass marines get awfully boring eventually, its not a style thats very dynamic because of the lack of good transitions and how it forces you to be hyper-aggressive with the same timing attacks game after game. Also cut the strawman about people wanting mech armies to be unattackable, what people want is for tanks to be able to trade cost efficiently against protoss. Which they almost never do once archons and immortals enter the field. | ||
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
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DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
On January 24 2014 22:03 Xequecal wrote: I really wish people would stop clamoring for Mech and let it die. Especially for TvP. BW-style Mech does not work at all in SC2, it's either crap or overpowered due to how the SC2 economy works. If the Mech army cannot be fought head on cost-effectively, as was the case in BW, it's simply overpowered. If it can be, it sucks, because it still comes with all those disadvantages. In SC2, you max out on 3 mining bases, compared to like 6 in BW. This makes it very difficult to capitalize on the immobility of mech. Not only does the Terran have far less territory to defend from harassment, it also means that the loss of a mining base completely destroys your economy. You can't take advantage of Terran slow-pushing over your third by fucking with him in that time because you'll lose if you lose that base. The fact is, if Mech is buffed so a Mech army is not cost-effectively attackable, Terran can deal an unrecoverable deathblow every game simply by sieging up the newest mining expansion of the Protoss. There's no trying to beat that with harassment or flanking. Terran could trade their main and natural for Protoss' third and still easily win the game, because that mech army can now beat all the units Protoss has remaining plus all the units they could produce with their remaining resources. I love mech in TvP as is. Well, excluding all the timings and bogus P stuff going on right now. If I make it into late game I do great. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On January 24 2014 22:16 Fjodorov wrote: Would love to hear DK comment on why he is so reluctant to reduce MsC vision range. Why is it so important for the MsC? Its like he refuses to implement a change that the community thought of first. haha The funny thing is, first he gave protoss the free hallucination scout, and then he increased the range of the msc sight. So now no-one uses the hallucination scout with the exception of mid-late game ZvP to scout for muta switches. | ||
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pali_
Germany48 Posts
PO -10sec Early pressure in TvP will still be impossible and I agree that the biggest impact this will have will be on PvP Hydra 25gas This will create crazy 2base Hydra-Bust-Timings where P will have to only rely on Collossi and Terrans on Tanks. As a Terran, I think this will become another scout it or die all-in to hold Tempest Passive Ability Can't really say anything regarding that except that I completely dislike the design of the unit itself, as a Terran, I don't see Tempests too often - and if I do, it's GG anyway Ghost Free Energy Up May create some new push timings in TvP, I don't think it will make ghost-mech more viable, since you need the barracks / ghost academy anyway, saving 100/100 won't change much imo. But let's give it a try. BTW: Code A is done: 2 out of 16 Terrans made it. Code S starts with 3 Terrans in the round of 32. Now, I didn't watch the matches, but did the T players really play THAT bad? Imho, this is just another proof that T is struggling MASSIVELY right now, especially as even Korean Terrans are failing. BTW2: Why isn't Taeja in actually? Oo | ||
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Frex
Finland888 Posts
On January 24 2014 19:13 75 wrote: yeah, i know what you mean. i just thought about it as an exception to prevent too much 1base vs 1base PvPs You also have to consider other things in the game as well. How would team games be played out from now on as there wouldn´t be a standard protoss, terran and zerg design. I feel it would be just impossible to do when you consider that there is more to Starcraft II than 1v1 ladder. | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
On January 24 2014 22:27 pali_ wrote: As already mentioned, I don't think the changes proposed in the patch will do much. PO -10sec Early pressure in TvP will still be impossible and I agree that the biggest impact this will have will be on PvP Hydra 25gas This will create crazy 2base Hydra-Bust-Timings where P will have to only rely on Collossi and Terrans on Tanks. As a Terran, I think this will become another scout it or die all-in to hold Tempest Passive Ability Can't really say anything regarding that except that I completely dislike the design of the unit itself, as a Terran, I don't see Tempests too often - and if I do, it's GG anyway Ghost Free Energy Up May create some new push timings in TvP, I don't think it will make ghost-mech more viable, since you need the barracks / ghost academy anyway, saving 100/100 won't change much imo. But let's give it a try. BTW: Code A is done: 2 out of 16 Terrans made it. Code S starts with 3 Terrans in the round of 32. Now, I didn't watch the matches, but did the T players really play THAT bad? Imho, this is just another proof that T is struggling MASSIVELY right now, especially as even Korean Terrans are failing. BTW2: Why isn't Taeja in actually? Oo Taeja is in WCS AM. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On January 24 2014 22:23 Ghanburighan wrote: The funny thing is, first he gave protoss the free hallucination scout, and then he increased the range of the msc sight. So now no-one uses the hallucination scout with the exception of mid-late game ZvP to scout for muta switches. somewhere in the testing, they found it nice that the MsC could be used offensive. But since it was rather slow people lost it to easy, so they increased the vision so people could evade stuff more easily. So they probably don't want to get rid of the vision because it would flat out kill MsC early aggression. Another thing might be the lategame vision. Protoss had the lowest and often got hit off guard. I mean Revelation and free hallucination were attempts to fix that. I guess they made the MsC a soft version to all the issues Protoss was facing in WoL. Which is why it feels so overpowered. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12559 Posts
On January 24 2014 22:33 FeyFey wrote: somewhere in the testing, they found it nice that the MsC could be used offensive. But since it was rather slow people lost it to easy, so they increased the vision so people could evade stuff more easily. So they probably don't want to get rid of the vision because it would flat out kill MsC early aggression. Well you don't have to give it a shitty vision. There is a middle ground between 14 and shitty :p Also lategame vision isn't a true problem. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 24 2014 22:33 FeyFey wrote: somewhere in the testing, they found it nice that the MsC could be used offensive. But since it was rather slow people lost it to easy, so they increased the vision so people could evade stuff more easily. So they probably don't want to get rid of the vision because it would flat out kill MsC early aggression. Another thing might be the lategame vision. Protoss had the lowest and often got hit off guard. I mean Revelation and free hallucination were attempts to fix that. I guess they made the MsC a soft version to all the issues Protoss was facing in WoL. Which is why it feels so overpowered. wait, when did they increase the vision? I always thought that the 14vision is just a relic from the Mothership having 14vision and they somehow forgot to change that in the beta. | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
- Charge Removed - Mothership Core now has no abilities - Blink Removed - Storm Removed - Colossus no longer deal AoE damage - Marines now deal extra +psi damage - Marines now deal extra damage to shields - Tanks now ignore shields | ||
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TW
Poland255 Posts
Widow mine nerf was a bit too much, and the tank buff doesn't really pay off especially on bigger maps. Today, Dream was crushed using bio even on T favored map. Maybe +10 damage for the turrets so that once Zerg has 15+ mutas they are not sniped so easily. | ||
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Dav1oN
Ukraine3164 Posts
Also, do the same with observers and add some vision uprgade inside robobay. That will nerf possible blink attacks a bit and won't affect the whole situation. | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
On January 24 2014 23:27 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Since a lot of ppl complaining about msc vision, i propose to decrease the starting vision of msc and add vision upgrade inside fleet beacon with little cost and research time like (50/50 and 90 sec of researching) Also, do the same with observers and add some vision uprgade inside robobay. That will nerf possible blink attacks a bit and won't affect the whole situation. That's actually not a bad idea. If the msc was more snipeable during blink attacks, it'd be easier to defend. I disagree on the Obs though. | ||
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Xamo
Spain886 Posts
Photon Overcharge duration decreased from 60 to 50 I'm not sure this is the best way to facilitate early game pressure in TvP. It wil not affect it too much, as pokes and drops last less that 50 seconds, and it will make PvP more unstable and favour 1-base play. I'd rather change the damage of the Photon Overcharge from 20 to 10+10 armored. That would help marine pressure/drops and still be ok against marauder drops (quick kill of the nexus) and stalker 1-base plays. Time Warp energy cost increased from 75 to 100 Agree with this change. But I would add a reduction in MSC sight range, from 14 to 12, to nerf blink play in PvT. Ghosts build with the energy upgrade built in I almost like this change, but I'm concerned about timings here. SCV pulls with bio and 2/3 ghosts will perhaps become too strong and the preferred (only?) choice for terran. I'd rather reduce the research time from 80 to 60 (1st ghost coming out w/o it, second with it), and also the gas cost to help mech. Hydralisk cost decreased from 100/50 to 100/25 Fully disagree with this, way too big of a change. Alternatively improve the (boring) corruptor by increasing its speed and/or acceleration and/or range, so that they can be microed against storms. Late game PvZ A Passive Tempest ability that allows them to deal 2-3 times more damage vs. Structures (We’re not 100% set on the actual value yet.) Cool idea, worth to explore. In order to avoid proxy play in PvT, this should come as an upgrade in the Fleet Beacon, with long reseach time. The question here is: If this changes discourages this kind of very slow late late game play, what strategies has zerg left? So please plan for this next step... | ||
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Exceed_SC2
United States13 Posts
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