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Constructive criticism is welcome, but no mindless SC2/Developer bashing in this thread. |
On January 24 2014 17:52 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 17:27 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 17:19 Dingobloo wrote:They keep the categories broad so they are easily understood and allow for emergent behavior, as such there is no "static defense" category, it is merely a "building." Having an"armored"allows for some interesting overlaps with units that are good against armored while "biological" adds some flavor to the zerg buildings. this is mumbo jumbo. they can program the game any way they want. if the problem they are solving is STATIC D WITH SWARM HOSTS by BUFFING TEMPEST, then just buff tempest against spore crawlers or spores + spines. period. they painted themselves into a corner by designing the game in a way that necessitates these ridiculously specific changes, so it's asinine for them to continue the charade of broad categorical design so players can "understand better." they're already balancing the game around the top level of play anyway and if you're good enough to be in gold league or above you know enough about the game that you can follow the patch notes. how is adding "+whatever% damage against zerg spore crawlers" to a tooltip somehow going to confuse the shit out of players who already have to check the tooltips for damage bonuses against any other category? if they actually want to address balance as a priority then pointless piddling issues like "some bronze leaguer might not immediately pick up on how the tempest works" shouldn't even enter the same area code as the discussion we're having It's really not mumbo jumbo, you're right that they can program the game however they want, but they always strive to provide broad and easily understood rules because they've learned that lesson from doing multiple games, check out Rein of Chaos' damage structure for instance where you need to take the damage type and there's even more ridiculousness on top of that, they learned the lesson real quick that it's not just arbitrary design nonsense that it actually has an effect on the comprehensibility of the game.
you didn't answer my question. how would "bonus damage vs zerg spore crawler" in a tooltip be somehow more difficult to comprehend than "bonus damage vs light units" in the hellion tooltip or "bonus damage vs shields" in the widow mine tooltip? are SC2 players known for being illiterate or only being willing to read the first 20 characters of a tooltip? i'm not discrediting the concept, i'm discrediting the execution. they're trying to have their cake and eat it too, and it began with the spore crawler buff
either we're buffing single game elements against other single game elements or we're not. talk all you want about spores being buffed "against bio," but the buff was released exclusively for mutalisks and the only other thing in the game it affects is overseer flybys. if you want the game to be "comprehensible" and programming it to address balance issues directly is a problem for that, then stop talking about balance being such a big priority. if balance is a big priority, then forget comprehensibility for two seconds and fix the game correctly. obviously the metagame is too complex for the categories they laid out at release, so they're better off just saying "well, we tried" and focusing on making the game play correctly
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Lol Free EMP. Really ghosts are great but here's another crutch to make bio even better. Suppose it's fair enough if Toss is going to keep its impregnable early game. This hydra buff idea is another sign Blizz has no clue what they're doing. They're going to overpatch and Toss is going to go into another era of doing jack.
I hope but doubt they're doing a full revamp for Legacy of the Void. All of the major design tweaks in HoTS just aren't that good.
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On January 24 2014 17:54 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 17:44 Bagi wrote:
I still cant wrap my head around the hydra buff when zerg is doing so well compared to terran. Maybe its a part of a bigger plan where they wanna adjust the overall meta towards hydras? Reminds me of the queen buff which was protested from the start but Blizzard went through with it anyway to force zerg meta towards safer builds.
This is really the magnitude of a buff terran would need against protoss, yet they randomly give it to zerg instead. it's about ZvP, it make toss harder to grab that fast third with triple stargate into skytoss and zerg has to go swarmhosts in that situation. and this is more than just about balance, this is more to do with not wanting to have more swarmhost style. Hopefully this will help out.
if protoss players would start offering some constructive ideas for how to design ZvP (constructive meaning something other than "nerf zerg units and do nothing else!") i think the community discussion on balance in the matchup would instantly become leagues better than it is now. the fact is most zerg players are tired of swarm hosts too, and a lot of zergs even feel that muta is a little strong. but those are the tools we have. when i criticize protoss design, i either offer alternative ideas or admit that although i don't have a better idea, protoss would need X to replace Y if Y were removed. i don't see other players approaching balance the same way often enough.
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On January 24 2014 17:44 Bagi wrote:
I still cant wrap my head around the hydra buff when zerg is doing so well compared to terran. Maybe its a part of a bigger plan where they wanna adjust the overall meta towards hydras? Reminds me of the queen buff which was protested from the start but Blizzard went through with it anyway to force zerg meta towards safer builds.
This is really the magnitude of a buff terran would need against protoss, yet they randomly give it to zerg instead.
hehe, I've been trying to get inside of DKs head and here are the arguments for the hydrabuff I have extracted so far:
-) Tempests buff requires buff to their counters. Let's buff hydras.
-) We told them we would be looking into mass roach ZvZ. Nothing has changed, time to get some hydras into this.
-) a patch with Terran and Protoss buffs... we need to give the zergs something so they don't feel forgotten
-) Starbow hydras are 75/25 and their stats are only 25% worse. Let's make our hydras 25% cheaper.
-) some guys wanted hydras that are closer to BW hydras. Let's make them close to BW Hydras.
-) Hydras aren't a factor in ZvT. Right? RIGHT????!!!!
Seriously, as a Zerg player I could understand all sorts of hydra buffs to make them more interesting and ranged compositions (besides swarmhosts) more useful in the lategame. Buff their antiair, buff their raw lategame power, buff their microability, make them more fun with some passive/active ability. Hell, if they want introducing a cheap Hivetech upgrade that makes hydras 25gas cheaper sounds reasonable, since then most players had enough time to get out the splash (or the marines) to take on hydras and mass hydra really isn't such a strong composition in the lategame, so that way it would at least get more disposable.
But 25less gas... That makes hydras in so scary in the midgame. Basically against everything, even against bio/tank. (I guess double robo colossus gamble would still beat it, but that's not a good build currently either, because scout, mutaswitch, €$€$€)
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On January 24 2014 18:05 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 17:54 ETisME wrote:On January 24 2014 17:44 Bagi wrote:
I still cant wrap my head around the hydra buff when zerg is doing so well compared to terran. Maybe its a part of a bigger plan where they wanna adjust the overall meta towards hydras? Reminds me of the queen buff which was protested from the start but Blizzard went through with it anyway to force zerg meta towards safer builds.
This is really the magnitude of a buff terran would need against protoss, yet they randomly give it to zerg instead. it's about ZvP, it make toss harder to grab that fast third with triple stargate into skytoss and zerg has to go swarmhosts in that situation. and this is more than just about balance, this is more to do with not wanting to have more swarmhost style. Hopefully this will help out. if protoss players would start offering some constructive ideas for how to design ZvP (constructive meaning something other than "nerf zerg units and do nothing else!") i think the community discussion on balance in the matchup would instantly become leagues better than it is now. the fact is most zerg players are tired of swarm hosts too, and a lot of zergs even feel that muta is a little strong. but those are the tools we have. when i criticize protoss design, i either offer alternative ideas or admit that although i don't have a better idea, protoss would need X to replace Y if Y were removed. i don't see other players approaching balance the same way often enough.
If suggestions have something to do with warpgate and forcefield, there is nothing to discuss, changes to those two will not happen. In latest Meta there was good discussion on swarm hosts, would want to see something like that.
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@ Big J:
I believe this, "Hydras aren't a factor in ZvT. Right? RIGHT????!!!" is probably Browder. 
Edit/ Unless you meant that, of course. In which case, +1 to you, good sir.
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On January 24 2014 18:18 aZealot wrote:@ Big J: I believe this, "Hydras aren't a factor in ZvT. Right? RIGHT????!!!" is probably Browder. Edit/ Unless you meant that, of course. In which case, +1 to you, good sir.
Nice find, now, didn't think about that. 
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I like to see instead of the Tempest buff, the same buff going to the carrier... is much more fun to watch, mor agile and not so stale...
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On January 24 2014 03:28 Rider517 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 03:24 Rider517 wrote:
i hope david kim get fired
User was warned for this post since i have another chance to insult david kim, i'm going to do it. i hope david kim get assigned to balance lego. User was temp banned for this post.
LOL dude
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The Ghost change is nice but I feel like it's just a curtain blocking something really nasty hiding in the back..
It might even be too powerful, it pretty much halves the time it takes to get ghosts.
But non the less some builds might become bread and butter again, ghost rushes..YES ^^
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On January 24 2014 18:16 Big J wrote:
But 25less gas... That makes hydras in so scary in the midgame. Basically against everything, even against bio/tank. (I guess double robo colossus gamble would still beat it, but that's not a good build currently either, because scout, mutaswitch, €$€$€)
idk. i would have to see some games play out to say definitively (seriously, the amount of people who are willing to say balance tweaks would "break matchups" without even watching a single test game is ridiculous...), but tanks are so fucking good against hydra or roach/hydra that i think if terran scouts major hydralisk aggression they can probably still hold by building tanks and positioning them very defensively. if 50 hydras show up unscouted? then yeah, sure, i'm ok with that putting the hurt on a terran. zerg is the most predictable race in all 3 matchups, so it would be nice to have some "boom! didn't scout that!" moments that don't involve a nydus worm or pool before overlord
if there's one thing i see being an actual major problem with the hydra gas nerf it's the muta switch issue people have been pointing out, and i'm not sure how to address that. maybe a better answer is to just integrate hydra upgrades into the unit and raise the cost or build time of the hydralisk den, which is an idea that's been around since hots has been out, and i think it's a pretty good one. longer build time on the den + built in upgrades would soften timings but because of the larva mechanic zerg would still be able to save money and pop a lot of hydras once it finishes if they're needed defensively
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This test map really confirms David Kim cannot fix this game, he just doesn't get it. Do you think zergs want to play this way David? We are forced. It's not our fault your unit is boring. The entire scene should just switch to Starbow, there is no way SC2 can be saved by blizzard, only the community can fix this pile of trash. #FireDavidKim2014
User was warned for this post
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On January 24 2014 18:41 Pesk wrote:
This test map really confirms David Kim cannot fix this game, he just doesn't get it. Do you think zergs want to play this way David? We are forced. It's not our fault your unit is boring. The entire scene should just switch to Starbow, there is no way SC2 can be saved by blizzard, only the community can fix this pile of trash. #FireDavidKim2014
i think some people need a refresher on what a "test map" actually is
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On January 24 2014 18:43 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 18:41 Pesk wrote:
This test map really confirms David Kim cannot fix this game, he just doesn't get it. Do you think zergs want to play this way David? We are forced. It's not our fault your unit is boring. The entire scene should just switch to Starbow, there is no way SC2 can be saved by blizzard, only the community can fix this pile of trash. #FireDavidKim2014 i think some people need a refresher on what a "test map" actually is
No I am pretty sure I know exactly what a "test map" actually is. The patch notes will just be a gutted version of the test map, they always are, how can you honestly still have faith. Explain yourself. This trash design/balance has gone on far too long. Fire DK or riot.
User was banned for this post.
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On January 24 2014 18:43 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 18:41 Pesk wrote:
This test map really confirms David Kim cannot fix this game, he just doesn't get it. Do you think zergs want to play this way David? We are forced. It's not our fault your unit is boring. The entire scene should just switch to Starbow, there is no way SC2 can be saved by blizzard, only the community can fix this pile of trash. #FireDavidKim2014 i think some people need a refresher on what a "test map" actually is
We could also test roaches costing 25/25. Why not? It's a test! It totally doesn't show that they have no idea on what to do!
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On January 24 2014 18:45 Pesk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 18:43 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 18:41 Pesk wrote:
This test map really confirms David Kim cannot fix this game, he just doesn't get it. Do you think zergs want to play this way David? We are forced. It's not our fault your unit is boring. The entire scene should just switch to Starbow, there is no way SC2 can be saved by blizzard, only the community can fix this pile of trash. #FireDavidKim2014 i think some people need a refresher on what a "test map" actually is No i am pretty sure I know exactly what a "test map" actually is. The patch notes will just be a gutted version of the test map, they always are, how can you honestly still have faith. Explain yourself.
not sure why i'm bothering since you'll be banned soon anyway, but ok:
i have "faith" because i enjoy the game in spite of its flaws and i understand that there are limitations to how drastically it can be changed at this phase of its release. if LOTV comes around and PvX doesn't change, that would absolutely be a big disappointment. but what exactly do you want me to expect of balance patches? what is your specific idea to replace swarm hosts? if you post one i would be really interested to hear it. but "get rid of swarm hosts dkim!!!" is not a solution because swarm hosts are THE solution to the fundamental synergy of the protoss army in this game. unless you expect blizzard to actually redesign the entire protoss race in a mid-release balance patch while professional players are making a living understanding the metagame and competing in tournaments, i'm not sure what big secret fix you think is out there
it's pretty simple: protoss can very safely max on tech and supply without really trading any army if they don't want to. zerg almost always has to build zerglings, roaches and/or hydralisks in order to hold protoss aggression, and those units are all trash against lategame toss, so zerg needs a way to transition out of tier 2 tech or they'll lose every fight. you either build swarm hosts to prevent the protoss army from walking all over the entire map and lasering you into oblivion or you try a muta switch to outmaneuver them and force a base trade/set up a soft contain. if you can tell me how to replace the swarm host in a single balance patch in a way that addresses those matchup design issues, i'll be interested and impressed.
On January 24 2014 18:50 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 18:43 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 18:41 Pesk wrote:
This test map really confirms David Kim cannot fix this game, he just doesn't get it. Do you think zergs want to play this way David? We are forced. It's not our fault your unit is boring. The entire scene should just switch to Starbow, there is no way SC2 can be saved by blizzard, only the community can fix this pile of trash. #FireDavidKim2014 i think some people need a refresher on what a "test map" actually is We could also test roaches costing 25/25. Why not? It's a test! It totally doesn't show that they have no idea on what to do!
100/25 hydras means that zerg will have a bigger and stronger timing window to hit protoss third bases with hydras, whether it would be an OP or holdable timing is arguable. 25/25 roaches would mean zerg autowins every single matchup and there's absolutely no argument anyone could ever make in favor of it. if you're not going to be intellectually honest, there's not much point debating anything with you
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On January 24 2014 18:40 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 18:16 Big J wrote:
But 25less gas... That makes hydras in so scary in the midgame. Basically against everything, even against bio/tank. (I guess double robo colossus gamble would still beat it, but that's not a good build currently either, because scout, mutaswitch, €$€$€) idk. i would have to see some games play out to say definitively (seriously, the amount of people who are willing to say balance tweaks would "break matchups" without even watching a single test game is ridiculous...), but tanks are so fucking good against hydra or roach/hydra that i think if terran scouts major hydralisk aggression they can probably still hold by building tanks and positioning them very defensively. if 50 hydras show up unscouted? then yeah, sure, i'm ok with that putting the hurt on a terran. zerg is the most predictable race in all 3 matchups, so it would be nice to have some "boom! didn't scout that!" moments that don't involve a nydus worm or pool before overlord if there's one thing i see being an actual major problem with the hydra gas nerf it's the muta switch issue people have been pointing out, and i'm not sure how to address that. maybe a better answer is to just integrate hydra upgrades into the unit and raise the cost or build time of the hydralisk den, which is an idea that's been around since hots has been out, and i think it's a pretty good one. longer build time on the den + built in upgrades would soften timings but because of the larva mechanic zerg would still be able to save money and pop a lot of hydras once it finishes if they're needed defensively
But 25gas is halving the gascost. It makes hydrabusts of 4gas (like the 200roach max builds were) available, which is a huge change in timing and saturation you need (8less drones).
Against a forge opener, you could probably max with roach/hydra ~14mins, assuming no stargate play maybe even 3mins.
And roach/hydra isn't the worst composition against Mech. 2/2 roach/hydra timings are quite devastating for any Terran as they are.
This gas costbuff lets hydralisk become nearly as costefficient as marines are, without roachsupport!
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is there a reason why they dont make changes in specific matchups?
like reduced overcharge duration in PvZ and PvT but same duration in PvP as it is?
balance things would get easier i guess.
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On January 24 2014 18:53 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 18:40 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 18:16 Big J wrote:
But 25less gas... That makes hydras in so scary in the midgame. Basically against everything, even against bio/tank. (I guess double robo colossus gamble would still beat it, but that's not a good build currently either, because scout, mutaswitch, €$€$€) idk. i would have to see some games play out to say definitively (seriously, the amount of people who are willing to say balance tweaks would "break matchups" without even watching a single test game is ridiculous...), but tanks are so fucking good against hydra or roach/hydra that i think if terran scouts major hydralisk aggression they can probably still hold by building tanks and positioning them very defensively. if 50 hydras show up unscouted? then yeah, sure, i'm ok with that putting the hurt on a terran. zerg is the most predictable race in all 3 matchups, so it would be nice to have some "boom! didn't scout that!" moments that don't involve a nydus worm or pool before overlord if there's one thing i see being an actual major problem with the hydra gas nerf it's the muta switch issue people have been pointing out, and i'm not sure how to address that. maybe a better answer is to just integrate hydra upgrades into the unit and raise the cost or build time of the hydralisk den, which is an idea that's been around since hots has been out, and i think it's a pretty good one. longer build time on the den + built in upgrades would soften timings but because of the larva mechanic zerg would still be able to save money and pop a lot of hydras once it finishes if they're needed defensively But 25gas is halving the gascost. It makes hydrabusts of 4gas (like the 200roach max builds were) available, which is a huge change in timing and saturation you need (8less drones). Against a forge opener, you could probably max with roach/hydra ~14mins, assuming no stargate play maybe even 3mins. And roach/hydra isn't the worst composition against Mech. 2/2 roach/hydra timings are quite devastating for any Terran as they are. This gas costbuff lets hydralisk become nearly as costefficient as marines are, without roachsupport! 4 gas hydra bust would be an all-in though, which means it would be scoutable. building tanks against a 2 base zerg with a hydralisk den under construction seems like a no-brainer
idk, i'm not saying i know how it would play out for sure. obviously hydras would get scary, but i really think it's debatable whether it would cross the line from scary to broken. i certainly don't WANT them to be broken, i just want to have more options 
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EPT
