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Constructive criticism is welcome, but no mindless SC2/Developer bashing in this thread. |
On January 24 2014 18:52 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 18:45 Pesk wrote:On January 24 2014 18:43 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 18:41 Pesk wrote:
This test map really confirms David Kim cannot fix this game, he just doesn't get it. Do you think zergs want to play this way David? We are forced. It's not our fault your unit is boring. The entire scene should just switch to Starbow, there is no way SC2 can be saved by blizzard, only the community can fix this pile of trash. #FireDavidKim2014 i think some people need a refresher on what a "test map" actually is No i am pretty sure I know exactly what a "test map" actually is. The patch notes will just be a gutted version of the test map, they always are, how can you honestly still have faith. Explain yourself. not sure why i'm bothering since you'll be banned soon anyway, but ok: i have "faith" because i enjoy the game in spite of its flaws and i understand that there are limitations to how drastically it can be changed at this phase of its release. if LOTV comes around and PvX doesn't change, that would absolutely be a big disappointment. but what exactly do you want me to expect of balance patches? what is your specific idea to replace swarm hosts? if you post one i would be really interested to hear it. but "get rid of swarm hosts dkim!!!" is not a solution because swarm hosts are THE solution to the fundamental synergy of the protoss army in this game. unless you expect blizzard to actually redesign the entire protoss race in a mid-release balance patch while professional players are making a living understanding the metagame and competing in tournaments, i'm not sure what big secret fix you think is out there it's pretty simple: protoss can very safely max on tech and supply without really trading any army if they don't want to. zerg almost always has to build zerglings, roaches and/or hydralisks in order to hold protoss aggression, and those units are all trash against lategame toss, so zerg needs a way to transition out of tier 2 tech or they'll lose every fight. you either build swarm hosts to prevent the protoss army from walking all over the entire map and lasering you into oblivion or you try a muta switch to outmaneuver them and force a base trade/set up a soft contain. if you can tell me how to replace the swarm host in a single balance patch in a way that addresses those matchup design issues, i'll be interested and impressed. Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 18:50 Karpfen wrote:On January 24 2014 18:43 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 18:41 Pesk wrote:
This test map really confirms David Kim cannot fix this game, he just doesn't get it. Do you think zergs want to play this way David? We are forced. It's not our fault your unit is boring. The entire scene should just switch to Starbow, there is no way SC2 can be saved by blizzard, only the community can fix this pile of trash. #FireDavidKim2014 i think some people need a refresher on what a "test map" actually is We could also test roaches costing 25/25. Why not? It's a test! It totally doesn't show that they have no idea on what to do! 100/25 hydras means that zerg will have a bigger and stronger timing window to hit protoss third bases with hydras, whether it would be an OP or holdable timing is arguable. 25/25 roaches would mean zerg autowins every single matchup and there's absolutely no argument anyone could ever make in favor of it. if you're not going to be intellectually honest, there's not much point debating anything with you
Standard TL fanboy, holding out for LOTV to save SC2, here is a protip. Don't hold your breath. As to fix swarm hosts. I will give you an ez fix, Nerf the dmg of locust, give them less hp as well. As for buffs make them spawn 4 @ a time and give them locust walking so they are more easily used for harass, you know burrow let the locust spawn then GTFO. Atm you lose SH because the locust carry them into unwanted terrain. ATM it is just too risky to play the way DK wants us to. We just lose too much money in the process. So we just turtle with mass static, because it's the only effective way to deal with toss.
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Starbow hydras are 75/25 and their stats are only 25% worse. Let's make our hydras 25% cheaper.
That made me laugh. Thanks Big J!
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On January 24 2014 18:53 75 wrote:
is there a reason why they dont make changes in specific matchups?
like reduced overcharge duration in PvZ and PvT but same duration in PvP as it is?
balance things would get easier i guess.
because then you have 9 races instead of 3. i see what you're saying, and ironically i was just debating another guy over the "avoid specific changes to keep the game understandable" argument, but in the case of matchup-specific changes i think it's actually correct. one of the things that makes the game exciting is knowing that your race's tools are what they are and it's up to you as a player to pioneer the metagame and do what you can with them. SC2 doesn't always play out perfectly to that ideal, but i still prefer the way it is over the idea of "ZvP" and "ZvT" having their own stat sheets. it would be confusing and if you went too far down that slippery slope you would just end up with the same problem: a stale metagame where blizzard is practically designing your build orders for you
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On January 24 2014 17:57 Asturas wrote:
As I observe the game is changing and being changed by balance team, I came to some conclusions. I wonder if any of you agree with me at some of them.
In the other topic concerning balance maps somebody wrote that Terrans are not innovative enough. That made me write this post.
I consider Korean Terran players to be the best players in SC2. They are, in my opinion, the most innovative, most stubborn in trying to find ways of winning and finally with some exceptions the are simply the best. I write with some exceptions, because we never can forget about brilliant geniuses like Jaedong, Parting, Rain and so on - absolutely top tier of Z and P.
The reason why Terrans seem to be non-innovative is because, like somebody already mentioned, over a time Terrans got stripped of from all timings, and all scary harassment options - usually if any Terran tactics seems to be to strong, Blizzard is not "observing". They just nerf immediately. On the other hand BL-infestor era lasted for many months and now we have all sorts of extremely strong tactics from Protoss. And I can't see Blizzard having idea, or even willing to change that quickly. Point is, that we came to the moment that only standard play from Terrans is viable.
I have the feeling that we are all being punished for the fact that Korean Terrans are simply the best. The best of the best will survive, will find the ways to win tournaments. And for that reason D. Kim will always have stats to prove his point. To prove that game is balanced.
And no, I don't like proposed changes. They will either create new all-in timings (Hydra change), some sort of rushes (Tempest change), are not enough (PO change) or will have different than intended effect (Ghost change).
Everyone knows the Korean Terrans are best. I'm just sick of being punished for it.
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On January 24 2014 19:00 Pesk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 18:52 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 18:45 Pesk wrote:On January 24 2014 18:43 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 18:41 Pesk wrote:
This test map really confirms David Kim cannot fix this game, he just doesn't get it. Do you think zergs want to play this way David? We are forced. It's not our fault your unit is boring. The entire scene should just switch to Starbow, there is no way SC2 can be saved by blizzard, only the community can fix this pile of trash. #FireDavidKim2014 i think some people need a refresher on what a "test map" actually is No i am pretty sure I know exactly what a "test map" actually is. The patch notes will just be a gutted version of the test map, they always are, how can you honestly still have faith. Explain yourself. not sure why i'm bothering since you'll be banned soon anyway, but ok: i have "faith" because i enjoy the game in spite of its flaws and i understand that there are limitations to how drastically it can be changed at this phase of its release. if LOTV comes around and PvX doesn't change, that would absolutely be a big disappointment. but what exactly do you want me to expect of balance patches? what is your specific idea to replace swarm hosts? if you post one i would be really interested to hear it. but "get rid of swarm hosts dkim!!!" is not a solution because swarm hosts are THE solution to the fundamental synergy of the protoss army in this game. unless you expect blizzard to actually redesign the entire protoss race in a mid-release balance patch while professional players are making a living understanding the metagame and competing in tournaments, i'm not sure what big secret fix you think is out there it's pretty simple: protoss can very safely max on tech and supply without really trading any army if they don't want to. zerg almost always has to build zerglings, roaches and/or hydralisks in order to hold protoss aggression, and those units are all trash against lategame toss, so zerg needs a way to transition out of tier 2 tech or they'll lose every fight. you either build swarm hosts to prevent the protoss army from walking all over the entire map and lasering you into oblivion or you try a muta switch to outmaneuver them and force a base trade/set up a soft contain. if you can tell me how to replace the swarm host in a single balance patch in a way that addresses those matchup design issues, i'll be interested and impressed. On January 24 2014 18:50 Karpfen wrote:On January 24 2014 18:43 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 18:41 Pesk wrote:
This test map really confirms David Kim cannot fix this game, he just doesn't get it. Do you think zergs want to play this way David? We are forced. It's not our fault your unit is boring. The entire scene should just switch to Starbow, there is no way SC2 can be saved by blizzard, only the community can fix this pile of trash. #FireDavidKim2014 i think some people need a refresher on what a "test map" actually is We could also test roaches costing 25/25. Why not? It's a test! It totally doesn't show that they have no idea on what to do! 100/25 hydras means that zerg will have a bigger and stronger timing window to hit protoss third bases with hydras, whether it would be an OP or holdable timing is arguable. 25/25 roaches would mean zerg autowins every single matchup and there's absolutely no argument anyone could ever make in favor of it. if you're not going to be intellectually honest, there's not much point debating anything with you Standard TL fanboy, holding out for LOTV to save SC2, here is a protip. Don't hold your breath. As to fix swarm hosts. I will give you an ez fix, Nerf the dmg of locust, give them less hp as well. As for buffs make them spawn 4 @ a time and give them locust walking so they are more easily used for harass, you know burrow let the locust spawn then GTFO. Atm you lose SH because the locust carry them into unwanted terrain. ATM it is just too risky to play the way DK wants us to. We just lose too much money in the process. So we just turtle with mass static, because it's the only effective way to deal with toss.
i'm not sure what makes me a "fanboy" other than disagreeing with your opinion. i don't give a shit about blizzard as a corporation; i don't have any "loyalty" to them nor do i make it a point to endorse their products unless i like them. i like SC2. sorry if it offends your sensibilities that i enjoy something which obviously makes you so angry, but slapping labels on me doesn't do a lot to fortify the logic behind your beliefs
swarm hosts will never be used for harassment because they're too immobile and expensive, no change to the locust mechanic will affect that (unless you gave them the flying upgrade from campaign, LOL). the issue of locust/SH pathing has absolutely nothing to do with what makes them a problem in the current metagame. SH are fine, perfectly balanced and not at all boring to watch in the mid-midlategame (before endgame). the pathing difficulties are part of what keeps the skill ceiling on the unit high - to use them effectively you have to be moving around and zoning the enemy army and ideally spreading creep as well. if you're just a horrible player who doesn't know how to hotkey and unburrow them, yes, you will lose them, but you don't lose them by design. that's bad play. the "spawn then GTFO" playstyle you describe is nothing more than the proper way to use swarm hosts, it's not difficult and you don't have to be a korean or a master level player to do it. lowering their HP and damage would nullify them as a midgame bridge because colossus critical mass would make them absolutely useless instead of merely defensible
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On January 24 2014 19:03 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 18:53 75 wrote:
is there a reason why they dont make changes in specific matchups?
like reduced overcharge duration in PvZ and PvT but same duration in PvP as it is?
balance things would get easier i guess. because then you have 9 races instead of 3. i see what you're saying, and ironically i was just debating another guy over the "avoid specific changes to keep the game understandable" argument, but in the case of matchup-specific changes i think it's actually correct. one of the things that makes the game exciting is knowing that your race's tools are what they are and it's up to you as a player to pioneer the metagame and do what you can with them. SC2 doesn't always play out perfectly to that ideal, but i still prefer the way it is over the idea of "ZvP" and "ZvT" having their own stat sheets. it would be confusing and if you went too far down that slippery slope you would just end up with the same problem: a stale metagame where blizzard is practically designing your build orders for you
yeah, i know what you mean.
i just thought about it as an exception to prevent too much 1base vs 1base PvPs
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As far as PvZ goes, I would much rather see Mothership (not core) made immune to viper pulls.
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On January 24 2014 19:13 75 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 19:03 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 18:53 75 wrote:
is there a reason why they dont make changes in specific matchups?
like reduced overcharge duration in PvZ and PvT but same duration in PvP as it is?
balance things would get easier i guess. because then you have 9 races instead of 3. i see what you're saying, and ironically i was just debating another guy over the "avoid specific changes to keep the game understandable" argument, but in the case of matchup-specific changes i think it's actually correct. one of the things that makes the game exciting is knowing that your race's tools are what they are and it's up to you as a player to pioneer the metagame and do what you can with them. SC2 doesn't always play out perfectly to that ideal, but i still prefer the way it is over the idea of "ZvP" and "ZvT" having their own stat sheets. it would be confusing and if you went too far down that slippery slope you would just end up with the same problem: a stale metagame where blizzard is practically designing your build orders for you yeah, i know what you mean. i just thought about it as an exception to prevent too much 1base vs 1base PvPs
i honestly think that there is just too much about the protoss race that's "hit or miss", "all or nothing" and that's what causes a lot of the matchup problems in the entire game. it's not a dig about toss players or a balance whine, but that's honestly how i feel. against the other races, toss has to hold against a lot with a little, and that means a lot hinges on questions like "were the forcefields perfect? were the storms perfect? did the colossus pop in time?" and in PvP there are just so many different tech options that it's impossible to play "safe" (a well documented problem, i know).
the mothership core is a unit that was added to let protoss move out on the map without dying to counterattacks, but instead of moving out on the map protoss just said "hey, now i have to build even FEWER units!" and it kind of did the opposite of what i think was intended. it sort of worked in PvZ because there's a lot you can do in terms of sniping third bases with MSC-backed pokes and recalls, but in the other matchups it seems like it does more harm than good.
a sort of crazy idea i had a while back was to put time warp on the oracle as a channeled ability (it would continually take up energy like the oracle's attack) and give revelation to the mothership core. i have no idea how it would play out for balance, but i think it would give oracles more utility throughout the game, which is what blizzard claimed they were trying to do with the goofy oracle buff they released last time. the MSC hardly needs offensive time warp IMO on top of force fields and storms. without time warp the MSC is a very defensive unit that doesn't do much for your actual army strength, which is probably how it should be. revelation + recall would be a cute mechanic and photon overcharge and recall would still fill their respective roles, including a photon overcharge nerf if that turns out to be necessary
On January 24 2014 19:21 crow_mw wrote:
As far as PvZ goes, I would much rather see Mothership (not core) made immune to viper pulls.
+1 from a zerg player. motherships are annoying as hell in a similar way to endgame swarm host style and the mothership actually provides a useful counter mechanic to locust swarms, so i think it would add a little bit to the matchup.
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Motherships should be immune to nearly everything, and I wish they were just a scary unit even alone.
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I can totally understand that people have lost faith in the "test map" since the oracle buff went through.
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On January 24 2014 18:57 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 18:53 Big J wrote:On January 24 2014 18:40 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 18:16 Big J wrote:
But 25less gas... That makes hydras in so scary in the midgame. Basically against everything, even against bio/tank. (I guess double robo colossus gamble would still beat it, but that's not a good build currently either, because scout, mutaswitch, €$€$€) idk. i would have to see some games play out to say definitively (seriously, the amount of people who are willing to say balance tweaks would "break matchups" without even watching a single test game is ridiculous...), but tanks are so fucking good against hydra or roach/hydra that i think if terran scouts major hydralisk aggression they can probably still hold by building tanks and positioning them very defensively. if 50 hydras show up unscouted? then yeah, sure, i'm ok with that putting the hurt on a terran. zerg is the most predictable race in all 3 matchups, so it would be nice to have some "boom! didn't scout that!" moments that don't involve a nydus worm or pool before overlord if there's one thing i see being an actual major problem with the hydra gas nerf it's the muta switch issue people have been pointing out, and i'm not sure how to address that. maybe a better answer is to just integrate hydra upgrades into the unit and raise the cost or build time of the hydralisk den, which is an idea that's been around since hots has been out, and i think it's a pretty good one. longer build time on the den + built in upgrades would soften timings but because of the larva mechanic zerg would still be able to save money and pop a lot of hydras once it finishes if they're needed defensively But 25gas is halving the gascost. It makes hydrabusts of 4gas (like the 200roach max builds were) available, which is a huge change in timing and saturation you need (8less drones). Against a forge opener, you could probably max with roach/hydra ~14mins, assuming no stargate play maybe even 3mins. And roach/hydra isn't the worst composition against Mech. 2/2 roach/hydra timings are quite devastating for any Terran as they are. This gas costbuff lets hydralisk become nearly as costefficient as marines are, without roachsupport! 4 gas hydra bust would be an all-in though, which means it would be scoutable. building tanks against a 2 base zerg with a hydralisk den under construction seems like a no-brainer idk, i'm not saying i know how it would play out for sure. obviously hydras would get scary, but i really think it's debatable whether it would cross the line from scary to broken. i certainly don't WANT them to be broken, i just want to have more options 
Well, that was more towards ZvP.
ZvT I think it wouldn't break things on its own, but it would certainly be quite an unnecessary extra option to just hydrabust and Terran has to prepare extremly carefully. And thus could break the matchup in the context of overall Zerg options.
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4713 Posts
Actually, now that 2.1 is out and we can have extension mods, why doesn't someone make an extension mod with some proper changes? That way we could test stuff on all maps and actually gather some viable data to present to Blizzard. In fact at this point, why not just make a balance extension mod and present it to the tournament organizers themselves?
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Yeah the hydra buff looks ridiculous considering how bad terran is doing, it's like making the marauder cost 75/25 suddenly. How come that's not being mooted to fix tvp. The swarmhost indeed is a huge issue. The problem is can't make them too weak or they just fail the midgame without them being too strong late game. Maybe the enduring locust upgrade needs to be more significant and much slower? That wouldn't effect the defensive capabilities as much?
For all I care, remove timewarp out of the game. I don't see what purpose it serves. There is a zerg slowing spell in the game, if it's such an essential part of pvz give them that spell but it's totally broken early and midgame tvp, even more than the nexus overcharge because every terran commital is definite due to time warp.
What happened to the times where protoss had to get forcefields and land them or otherwise be in trouble? Doesn't exist anymore. IMO lategame PvZ can be fixed with mapdesign. Some maps just tend to end up in those games.
TvP however is completely wrecked at this stage. Protoss have figured it out and there's not much left for terran to do because all the nerfs and all the protoss buffs force terran to go one single road that lives very very very few opportunities to get a win. And again I say the only time terran wins is when the protoss miscontrols his army and walks the colossus over some ridge into vikings or the templar into a bunch of emps. Straight up fights are not even close anymore thanks to double timewarps.
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On January 24 2014 20:02 Destructicon wrote:
Actually, now that 2.1 is out and we can have extension mods, why doesn't someone make an extension mod with some proper changes? That way we could test stuff on all maps and actually gather some viable data to present to Blizzard. In fact at this point, why not just make a balance extension mod and present it to the tournament organizers themselves?
When has Blizzard listened to the community when we've gone out on our own, to do research, to determine what is viable and what is not? I can think of one time and it was a half assed attempt when Nony made the carrier video.
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On January 24 2014 20:02 Destructicon wrote:
Actually, now that 2.1 is out and we can have extension mods, why doesn't someone make an extension mod with some proper changes? That way we could test stuff on all maps and actually gather some viable data to present to Blizzard. In fact at this point, why not just make a balance extension mod and present it to the tournament organizers themselves?
Someone did but they took it down, it's likely that the changes ARE going to be in the form of an extension mod, we don't yet know if it is, and tournaments aren't the only place people play the game, they'd still need to have a canonical balance mod for ladder which would be considered the proper balance.
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Russian Federation262 Posts
The best way we could act is just chill, wait until test map is released, then:
1. Play it as much as possible
2. Bring a constructive feedback to this topic, reddit sc2 and battle.net forums
3. Never cry about OP e.t.c.
Stop being kids guys, please, its really annoying. I would play sc2 even if it would not be balanced at all, blizzard is doing great job balancing this game. Its not so easy as you think.
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On January 24 2014 21:27 wishr wrote:
The best way we could act is just chill, wait until test map is released, then:
1. Play it as much as possible
2. Bring a constructive feedback to this topic, reddit sc2 and battle.net forums
3. Never cry about OP e.t.c.
Stop being kids guys, please, its really annoying. I would play sc2 even if it would not be balanced at all, blizzard is doing great job balancing this game. Its not so easy as you think.
Look, they explicitly asked for feedback without putting out a map:
Again, none of this is final. We haven’t published a balance test map on it, yet. Your feedback is welcome, and if this process goes smoothly, we will look to publish a balance test map within the next couple of weeks at the latest.
So stop insulting people if you haven't even bothered to read the post properly.
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I just don't understand what timewarp and overcharge change in tvp.
Ghost all in faster? It was done without the upgrade regardless, maybe the all in hits mere seconds earlier.
So, no major change in tvp really...??
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It doesn't really change much while hte energy boost helps I don't think it will have a big enough impact on the game but I'm more than willing to try it especially because i had a period where I actually went ghost viking and the biggest thing was Build time vs protoss build time so if you barely win a fight with a few units alive protoss will have the next wave ready instantly because their units in smaller #s mean more than Terran which is why its a Thin Razer you have to balance on in order to win late game....
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So this is basically the best patch they could do, apart from the vision range of MSC that should be reduced, and the hydra buff that comes a bit out of nowhere, right?
So I should expect a rather positive reaction to it, right?
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EPT
