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Constructive criticism is welcome, but no mindless SC2/Developer bashing in this thread. |
Maybe making Photon Overcharge 125 instead of 100 but having the MsC start with 25 more energy would help?
Overcharge only helps in PvP when you're getting 4 gated or when you're holding an allin at your natural, so you're always just casting it on one nexus at a time. You would no longer be able to cast it on 2 Nexuses, so it wouldn't deny early multi-pronged harass from Terran like it does now. Later on in the game, Terran Stim bio w/ Meidvacs can just muscle through it anyway so it's not as big of a deal. And I hardly ever use it against Zerg.
But Time warp is really useful in PvZ, especially on some of these maps with open 3rds where the Zerg can get a favorable angle on you. It really helps control the space with good TW and FF. So I wouldn't want to change that.
Sight range on MsC is high and it helps for Blink allins, but it's also REALLY useful for scouting in PvP. If you determine there isn't a Warpgate rush of any kind, a lot of people scout tech with the MsC since you have no way of sneaking a scout past their first Stalker. So I wouldn't want them to change that.
Honestly I think the best way to nerf Blink allins is by just designing maps that make it more difficult. The type of maps where if you don't scout it you can still die to it, but if you do, you only need to put army in like max 2 places to hold it off. The maps in the map pool right now pretty much all have HUGE surface area into the main... all you have to do is make a map like Belshir Vestige or Daybreak where Blink-ins are not a possibility and there you go...100% Blink nerf without even touching unit stats.
The last thing is that although nobody in the balance area cares about team games, I think nerfs to PO and TW will hurt PP and PZ teams a lot in 2s unless the ramp is really easy to wall off.
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On January 25 2014 00:11 DinoMight wrote:
Maybe making Photon Overcharge 125 instead of 100 but having the MsC start with 25 more energy would help?
Overcharge only helps in PvP when you're getting 4 gated or when you're holding an allin at your natural, so you're always just casting it on one nexus at a time. You would no longer be able to cast it on 2 Nexuses, so it wouldn't deny early multi-pronged harass from Terran like it does now. Later on in the game, Terran Stim bio w/ Meidvacs can just muscle through it anyway so it's not as big of a deal. And I hardly ever use it against Zerg.
But Time warp is really useful in PvZ, especially on some of these maps with open 3rds where the Zerg can get a favorable angle on you. It really helps control the space with good TW and FF. So I wouldn't want to change that.
Sight range on MsC is high and it helps for Blink allins, but it's also REALLY useful for scouting in PvP. If you determine there isn't a Warpgate rush of any kind, a lot of people scout tech with the MsC since you have no way of sneaking a scout past their first Stalker. So I wouldn't want them to change that.
Honestly I think the best way to nerf Blink allins is by just designing maps that make it more difficult. The type of maps where if you don't scout it you can still die to it, but if you do, you only need to put army in like max 2 places to hold it off. The maps in the map pool right now pretty much all have HUGE surface area into the main... all you have to do is make a map like Belshir Vestige or Daybreak where Blink-ins are not a possibility and there you go...100% Blink nerf without even touching unit stats.
The last thing is that although nobody in the balance area cares about team games, I think nerfs to PO and TW will hurt PP and PZ teams a lot in 2s unless the ramp is really easy to wall off.
What would you think about reducing the PO net DPS but add some sort of big EMP when it is being cast that reduces the shield of every enemy unit in a certain area around the Nexus to 0 (or maybe adjust that number) ? It could even have an effect on the energy like a standard EMP which would work on the medivac energy and could help defending drops.
It doesnt seem like it would hinder PvP that much, all the opposite, but would allow more early aggression in the other match ups.
Also, the timing of the casting would become very important (all or nothing kind of stuff) in PvP and could make it more exciting.
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On January 24 2014 23:57 Xamo wrote:
Trying to be constructive here...
Photon Overcharge duration decreased from 60 to 50
I'm not sure this is the best way to facilitate early game pressure in TvP. It wil not affect it too much, as pokes and drops last less that 50 seconds, and it will make PvP more unstable and favour 1-base play. I'd rather change the damage of the Photon Overcharge from 20 to 10+10 armored. That would help marine pressure/drops and still be ok against marauder drops (quick kill of the nexus) and stalker 1-base plays.
Time Warp energy cost increased from 75 to 100
Agree with this change. But I would add a reduction in MSC sight range, from 14 to 12, to nerf blink play in PvT.
Ghosts build with the energy upgrade built in
I almost like this change, but I'm concerned about timings here. SCV pulls with bio and 2/3 ghosts will perhaps become too strong and the preferred (only?) choice for terran. I'd rather reduce the research time from 80 to 60 (1st ghost coming out w/o it, second with it), and also the gas cost to help mech.
Hydralisk cost decreased from 100/50 to 100/25
Fully disagree with this, way too big of a change. Alternatively improve the (boring) corruptor by increasing its speed and/or acceleration and/or range, so that they can be microed against storms.
Late game PvZ
I agree with your analysis. However I think that the plan for the hydrabuff is to give Z a bigger window vs 3 base toss in order to prevent late game scenarios.
A Passive Tempest ability that allows them to deal 2-3 times more damage vs. Structures (We’re not 100% set on the actual value yet.)
Cool idea, worth to explore. In order to avoid proxy play in PvT, this should come as an upgrade in the Fleet Beacon, with long reseach time.
The question here is: If this changes discourages this kind of very slow late late game play, what strategies has zerg left? So please plan for this next step...
Good analysis. In my opinion the Hydrabuff is supposed to give Z a bigger/stronger timing window against three base toss, so that those lategame scenarios won`t happen as frequently. If this forces the toss to invest more into gateway units early on or into defensive structures then this would delay the tech of the toss and ultra based compositions might prove to be more sustainable.
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On January 25 2014 00:11 DinoMight wrote:
Honestly I think the best way to nerf Blink allins is by just designing maps that make it more difficult. The type of maps where if you don't scout it you can still die to it, but if you do, you only need to put army in like max 2 places to hold it off. The maps in the map pool right now pretty much all have HUGE surface area into the main... all you have to do is make a map like Belshir Vestige or Daybreak where Blink-ins are not a possibility and there you go...100% Blink nerf without even touching unit stats.
I think this a bigger deal than people make it out to be. Compare the map pool this season to that of previous seasons. There's only one or two maps blink isn't good on. For example, blink is not really possible on Habitation Station. Contrast that with Yeonsu, where it is practically a free win to go blink.
If we look at the current pool, the following are insanely good for blink: Daedalus Point, Yeonsu, Alterzim Stronghold, Heavy Rain.
Maps that you can blink on but it isn't as easy: Polar Night
Maps blink is bad on: Habitation Station.
It isn't surprising that blink is dominating when the pool so heavily favours it.
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On January 25 2014 00:11 DinoMight wrote:
Maybe making Photon Overcharge 125 instead of 100 but having the MsC start with 25 more energy would help?
Overcharge only helps in PvP when you're getting 4 gated or when you're holding an allin at your natural, so you're always just casting it on one nexus at a time. You would no longer be able to cast it on 2 Nexuses, so it wouldn't deny early multi-pronged harass from Terran like it does now. Later on in the game, Terran Stim bio w/ Meidvacs can just muscle through it anyway so it's not as big of a deal. And I hardly ever use it against Zerg.
But Time warp is really useful in PvZ, especially on some of these maps with open 3rds where the Zerg can get a favorable angle on you. It really helps control the space with good TW and FF. So I wouldn't want to change that.
Sight range on MsC is high and it helps for Blink allins, but it's also REALLY useful for scouting in PvP. If you determine there isn't a Warpgate rush of any kind, a lot of people scout tech with the MsC since you have no way of sneaking a scout past their first Stalker. So I wouldn't want them to change that.
Honestly I think the best way to nerf Blink allins is by just designing maps that make it more difficult. The type of maps where if you don't scout it you can still die to it, but if you do, you only need to put army in like max 2 places to hold it off. The maps in the map pool right now pretty much all have HUGE surface area into the main... all you have to do is make a map like Belshir Vestige or Daybreak where Blink-ins are not a possibility and there you go...100% Blink nerf without even touching unit stats.
The last thing is that although nobody in the balance area cares about team games, I think nerfs to PO and TW will hurt PP and PZ teams a lot in 2s unless the ramp is really easy to wall off.
I feel like without the 25 additional starting energy is a solid enough nerf to the MsC, as it opens up more early game timings for Terrans (and maybe Zergs). However, it could be a good change if Gateway rushes become an issue in PvP if PO is nerfed.
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I really like this patch, people are giving too much attention to the pro's opinion.
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On January 25 2014 00:11 DinoMight wrote:
Maybe making Photon Overcharge 125 instead of 100 but having the MsC start with 25 more energy would help?
Overcharge only helps in PvP when you're getting 4 gated or when you're holding an allin at your natural, so you're always just casting it on one nexus at a time. You would no longer be able to cast it on 2 Nexuses, so it wouldn't deny early multi-pronged harass from Terran like it does now. Later on in the game, Terran Stim bio w/ Meidvacs can just muscle through it anyway so it's not as big of a deal. And I hardly ever use it against Zerg.
But Time warp is really useful in PvZ, especially on some of these maps with open 3rds where the Zerg can get a favorable angle on you. It really helps control the space with good TW and FF. So I wouldn't want to change that.
Sight range on MsC is high and it helps for Blink allins, but it's also REALLY useful for scouting in PvP. If you determine there isn't a Warpgate rush of any kind, a lot of people scout tech with the MsC since you have no way of sneaking a scout past their first Stalker. So I wouldn't want them to change that.
Honestly I think the best way to nerf Blink allins is by just designing maps that make it more difficult. The type of maps where if you don't scout it you can still die to it, but if you do, you only need to put army in like max 2 places to hold it off. The maps in the map pool right now pretty much all have HUGE surface area into the main... all you have to do is make a map like Belshir Vestige or Daybreak where Blink-ins are not a possibility and there you go...100% Blink nerf without even touching unit stats.
The last thing is that although nobody in the balance area cares about team games, I think nerfs to PO and TW will hurt PP and PZ teams a lot in 2s unless the ramp is really easy to wall off.
designing maps that dont work with blink all ins might be the best and easiest way to balance TvP, since most of the problems come from 1-base blink, 2-base blink or 3-base blink.
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These suggested changes only make me ponder what David Kim would do if the game were ever truly balanced. Is it honestly his goal? You have units in the game that no one enjoys from a design standpoint. You have people that refuse to believe p vs t is close to balance. But, given these suggested changes, it leads me to believe the game is as balanced as possible and David is simply looking for things to do to appear busy. Changing the SC 2 outfit from a blue one to a turquoise one. David is already bored. What's his job going to be then if the game is actually balanced? Make sure units don't start doing more damage than what their stats say?
I feel for the guy. He must love his job and is very worried about losing it, or else he might actually try balancing it.
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On January 25 2014 00:44 cptjibberjabber wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2014 00:11 DinoMight wrote:
Maybe making Photon Overcharge 125 instead of 100 but having the MsC start with 25 more energy would help?
Overcharge only helps in PvP when you're getting 4 gated or when you're holding an allin at your natural, so you're always just casting it on one nexus at a time. You would no longer be able to cast it on 2 Nexuses, so it wouldn't deny early multi-pronged harass from Terran like it does now. Later on in the game, Terran Stim bio w/ Meidvacs can just muscle through it anyway so it's not as big of a deal. And I hardly ever use it against Zerg.
But Time warp is really useful in PvZ, especially on some of these maps with open 3rds where the Zerg can get a favorable angle on you. It really helps control the space with good TW and FF. So I wouldn't want to change that.
Sight range on MsC is high and it helps for Blink allins, but it's also REALLY useful for scouting in PvP. If you determine there isn't a Warpgate rush of any kind, a lot of people scout tech with the MsC since you have no way of sneaking a scout past their first Stalker. So I wouldn't want them to change that.
Honestly I think the best way to nerf Blink allins is by just designing maps that make it more difficult. The type of maps where if you don't scout it you can still die to it, but if you do, you only need to put army in like max 2 places to hold it off. The maps in the map pool right now pretty much all have HUGE surface area into the main... all you have to do is make a map like Belshir Vestige or Daybreak where Blink-ins are not a possibility and there you go...100% Blink nerf without even touching unit stats.
The last thing is that although nobody in the balance area cares about team games, I think nerfs to PO and TW will hurt PP and PZ teams a lot in 2s unless the ramp is really easy to wall off.
designing maps that dont work with blink all ins might be the best and easiest way to balance TvP, since most of the problems come from 1-base blink, 2-base blink or 3-base blink.
And oracles, and teching up to robo, storm on 2 forges and 1 gateway, and an unbeatable lategame...
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On January 25 2014 00:45 playa wrote:
These suggested changes only make me ponder what David Kim would do if the game were ever truly balanced. Is it honestly his goal? You have units in the game that no one enjoys from a design standpoint. You have people that refuse to believe p vs t is close to balance. But, given these suggested changes, it leads me to believe the game is as balanced as possible and David is simply looking for things to do to appear busy. Changing the SC 2 outfit from a blue one to a turquoise one. David is already bored. What's his job going to be then if the game is actually balanced? Make sure units don't start doing more damage than what their stats say?
I feel for the guy. He must love his job and is very worried about losing it, or else he might actually try balancing it.
FYI, David Kim is also in charge of Heroes of the Storm's balance.
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The problem with blink is this map pool heavily favors it. If the mains didn't have so much area where you could blink in it wouldn't be a problem because blink isn't near as strong when there is only 2 ways to attack. As for the PvZ late game, I think the change to the tempest is just silly and actually won't fix it. It already has ridiculous range and now you want to to do more damage against structures? The real problem here is the swarm host, I personally think it is just a boring unit to watch because it just sits there and spawns free units. The swarm host should just get a design change(if I were in charge). The ghost change won't help with mech as much as it will bio, there might be some nice timings that Protoss would finally have to deal with.
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Photon Overcharge duration decreased from 60 to 50
Not enough at all... I´d say make it 40. If PvP is broken, fix it otherwise ffs. "We buff protoss defence cause protoss is so strong attacking". REALLY WEIRD BLIZZARD, ther`s other races as well. You remember terran and that-other-race-that-aint-protoss yes?
Time Warp energy cost increased from 75 to 100
Well this doesnt change 1-base build build at all. And in ladder that build gives you gm-spot alone. Nerf the time for that as well.
Ghosts build with the energy upgrade built in
If this goes through, it`s by far the best thing you`ve ever made. It sounds silly, but since terran is always behind in upgrades, EMP is the one they need to defend 0-2 or 0-3 upgraded zealot archon allins.
Hydralisk cost decreased from 100/50 to 100/25
This means more early vipers or infestors with hydralisk... I think this makes impossible for P to take early third or hardens terran bio/widow mine play to zero. Zerg already has huge winration, why to make 50% buff for one of its units?
A Passive Tempest ability that allows them to deal 2-3 times more damage vs. Structures (We’re not 100% set on the actual value yet.)
So, let me understand this correct: there are 15 protoss in code s and 13 zergs in Code is. 3 terrans. So you want to buff protoss cause their problems in p-p and z-p and to buff zerg cause they need more options. Watching swarmhost based play is the final reason why starcraft is so boring right now. Then you want to buff turtling more to get this thing for protoss. Good luck blizzard, I go play some other strategy game then. Age Of Empires II is really good still.
Real issue for protoss is MSC: it`s range is insane, over durationed skills for both in defence (photon) and offence (slow) and is a huge threat early on. Yet for some reason you think this is ok cause it fixes P-P. There was a time when SC was hardest game on earth. Now it`s the game where you have to play one race to win. Reminds me of WC3, where orcs where overpowered several years and game clashed to that. Seems same is happening here now as Blizzard fails to deliver answers to community.
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On January 25 2014 00:39 dyDrawer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2014 00:11 DinoMight wrote:
Maybe making Photon Overcharge 125 instead of 100 but having the MsC start with 25 more energy would help?
Overcharge only helps in PvP when you're getting 4 gated or when you're holding an allin at your natural, so you're always just casting it on one nexus at a time. You would no longer be able to cast it on 2 Nexuses, so it wouldn't deny early multi-pronged harass from Terran like it does now. Later on in the game, Terran Stim bio w/ Meidvacs can just muscle through it anyway so it's not as big of a deal. And I hardly ever use it against Zerg.
But Time warp is really useful in PvZ, especially on some of these maps with open 3rds where the Zerg can get a favorable angle on you. It really helps control the space with good TW and FF. So I wouldn't want to change that.
Sight range on MsC is high and it helps for Blink allins, but it's also REALLY useful for scouting in PvP. If you determine there isn't a Warpgate rush of any kind, a lot of people scout tech with the MsC since you have no way of sneaking a scout past their first Stalker. So I wouldn't want them to change that.
Honestly I think the best way to nerf Blink allins is by just designing maps that make it more difficult. The type of maps where if you don't scout it you can still die to it, but if you do, you only need to put army in like max 2 places to hold it off. The maps in the map pool right now pretty much all have HUGE surface area into the main... all you have to do is make a map like Belshir Vestige or Daybreak where Blink-ins are not a possibility and there you go...100% Blink nerf without even touching unit stats.
The last thing is that although nobody in the balance area cares about team games, I think nerfs to PO and TW will hurt PP and PZ teams a lot in 2s unless the ramp is really easy to wall off.
I feel like without the 25 additional starting energy is a solid enough nerf to the MsC, as it opens up more early game timings for Terrans (and maybe Zergs). However, it could be a good change if Gateway rushes become an issue in PvP if PO is nerfed.
If i takes 25 additional energy to cast PO but the MSC doesn't start with it then you won't be able to PO in time against things like 4 gate in PvP. If you get the MsC as soon as your cyber is done PO is ready just about the time that a 4 gate would show up. So it's pretty crucial for this timing to keep working.
I'm not a fan of any vs. Protoss only aspect of PO (like spores are vs biological only, I think that's dumb). IMO it's too specific and confusing for noobs and it's not consistent enough for gameplay. Can you imagine if Marines did different damage vs each race? It would just be awkward.
What do you guys think of my proposed Swarm Host nerf:
Locusts no longer get rallied. Meaning you need to select them and tell them to attack when they spawn.
I think this would make things a little more interesting because it would require a minimum level of skill. As it is right now I think Swarm Hosts actually use negative APM because they free you up to do other things while they auto spawn free units lol.
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On January 25 2014 01:34 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2014 00:39 dyDrawer wrote:On January 25 2014 00:11 DinoMight wrote:
Maybe making Photon Overcharge 125 instead of 100 but having the MsC start with 25 more energy would help?
Overcharge only helps in PvP when you're getting 4 gated or when you're holding an allin at your natural, so you're always just casting it on one nexus at a time. You would no longer be able to cast it on 2 Nexuses, so it wouldn't deny early multi-pronged harass from Terran like it does now. Later on in the game, Terran Stim bio w/ Meidvacs can just muscle through it anyway so it's not as big of a deal. And I hardly ever use it against Zerg.
But Time warp is really useful in PvZ, especially on some of these maps with open 3rds where the Zerg can get a favorable angle on you. It really helps control the space with good TW and FF. So I wouldn't want to change that.
Sight range on MsC is high and it helps for Blink allins, but it's also REALLY useful for scouting in PvP. If you determine there isn't a Warpgate rush of any kind, a lot of people scout tech with the MsC since you have no way of sneaking a scout past their first Stalker. So I wouldn't want them to change that.
Honestly I think the best way to nerf Blink allins is by just designing maps that make it more difficult. The type of maps where if you don't scout it you can still die to it, but if you do, you only need to put army in like max 2 places to hold it off. The maps in the map pool right now pretty much all have HUGE surface area into the main... all you have to do is make a map like Belshir Vestige or Daybreak where Blink-ins are not a possibility and there you go...100% Blink nerf without even touching unit stats.
The last thing is that although nobody in the balance area cares about team games, I think nerfs to PO and TW will hurt PP and PZ teams a lot in 2s unless the ramp is really easy to wall off.
I feel like without the 25 additional starting energy is a solid enough nerf to the MsC, as it opens up more early game timings for Terrans (and maybe Zergs). However, it could be a good change if Gateway rushes become an issue in PvP if PO is nerfed. If i takes 25 additional energy to cast PO but the MSC doesn't start with it then you won't be able to PO in time against things like 4 gate in PvP. If you get the MsC as soon as your cyber is done PO is ready just about the time that a 4 gate would show up. So it's pretty crucial for this timing to keep working. I'm not a fan of any vs. Protoss only aspect of PO (like spores are vs biological only, I think that's dumb). IMO it's too specific and confusing for noobs and it's not consistent enough for gameplay. Can you imagine if Marines did different damage vs each race? It would just be awkward. What do you guys think of my proposed Swarm Host nerf:Locusts no longer get rallied. Meaning you need to select them and tell them to attack when they spawn. I think this would make things a little more interesting because it would require a minimum level of skill. As it is right now I think Swarm Hosts actually use negative APM because they free you up to do other things while they auto spawn free units lol.
An APM nerf will only affect the lower leagues... For me the SH is not a problem, I agree with Blizzard that static defenses used in an offensive position are the problem.
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Photon overcharge
Seems decent, I'm OK with it. I'd like that an overcharged Nexus can't produce anything too.
Time warp
This won't nerf blink attacks enough. A sight range nerf is mandatory.
Ghost upgrade
Seems reasonable. SCV pulls could become a bit of a problem though.
Hydralisk cost
What the hell are they thinking ? It's dumb to the extreme, and suggestions like that really set my teeth on edge.
Tempest buff
I don't think it's the way to go. Buff mothership instead (make it immune to viper pulls, quicker, I dunno, but I think the solution lies in this unit that once was a key to PvZ lategame).
Overall something that at last goes in the right direction, but once again only severely needed because some really stupid changes made it to the game (oracle speed buff...).
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My Proposed List of changes (numbers are simply arbitrary)
-Zealot movespeed Increased slightly, say 2.27 from 2.25
-Stalker attack period reduced to 1.224 from 1.44 (15%)
-Sentry Forcefield Duration reduced to 8 seconds
-Sentry Cost reduced to 50/75
-Photon Overcharge Cost increased to 125 from 100
-Blink Cooldown increased to 15 seconds from 10
-Zealot Charge Speed increase reduced to .48 from .5 (Zealots will have same speed with charge)
The goal here is to have protoss rely less on overcharge and forcefield with more power put into the zealot and stalker.
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Why are people complaing about Hydras? I thought that would be one of the more popular changes. Hydras are glass cannons, yeah they do alot of damage without splash, but once splash is out they become very wasteful, a cheaper Hydra in my opinion in a good way to keep PvZ fresh.
However I will be honest and admit I wish they would create a larger differentiation between Hydras and Roaches.
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If protos play proxy tempests he havent army and eco.Its work only in some maps.vikings with scv def it easy or raven mto some later.
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On January 25 2014 01:58 GinDo wrote:
Why are people complaing about Hydras? I thought that would be one of the more popular changes. Hydras are glass cannons, yeah they do alot of damage without splash, but once splash is out they become very wasteful, a cheaper Hydra in my opinion in a good way to keep PvZ fresh.
However I will be honest and admit I wish they would create a larger differentiation between Hydras and Roaches.
The problem is that they absolutely SHRED gateway units which is all Protoss has until splash is out. As the game is now, you can get enough forcefields to delay the Hydras enough until 1-2 Colos are out to deal with the threat and defend your third.
But at half the gas cost, this Hydra attack can come much much earlier when splash is still a long ways away. So Protoss has nothing that can fight Hydras.
Since you play T (I assume).. it's like Stim Bio. Protoss needs splash to fight it. Or we die. Now imagine stim/medivacs cost half as much gas... that attack would come a lot quicker than it does now and P would have nothing to fend it off with.
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Actually I think the only thing that ghost buff is going to do is just end games quick. It does not help late game at all. It doesn't respond to the blink all in. Its just opening up a huge window for terran; although parting's 3 base build vs flash looks imba and may be the new meta so i dont know how it would work in that position.
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EPT
