EPT everybody will just mass hydras and infestors
Swarm Hosts will counter hydra-festors, no?
Or maybe 150/25 hydralisk will solve the problem?
1/24 Balance test map - Page 30
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Constructive criticism is welcome, but no mindless SC2/Developer bashing in this thread. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Swarm Hosts will counter hydra-festors, no? Or maybe 150/25 hydralisk will solve the problem? | ||
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SeXyBaCk
Switzerland174 Posts
The tempests look silly too, 2-3 times damage. That means 3 tempests can 2 shot a cc roughly. Protoss will just camp late game, make illusions oracles and snipe all of terran bases. Just buff tempest damage to BIO. That's how you fix pvz without changing pvt too much. I agree with prenerf mines. Bio mine is gone.It doesn't work. This GSL season will/has shown it. Maru and people have gone into some weird thor bio hellbat comp because mines don't do jack against mutas anymore, and vs ling bane they're just too weak. All in all though, at least DK is trying stuff. I don't get why they're so scared of making changes. The game is messed up right now. All 3 races are complaining, terrans naturally the most. Just do something if it doesn't work, change it back. I doubt the community would complain about frequent balance changes, everything is better than doing nothing with people quit playing daily. | ||
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Waise
3165 Posts
On January 24 2014 17:19 Dingobloo wrote: yes. which is essentially what i said? tempests can fly to buildings, 99% of the time spore crawlers are not going to walk under a corruptor to shoot it, so... Spores are not just buffed against one unit they were buffed against ALL biological units, but the only 3 conceivable things that fly and are biological are Corruptors, Broodlords and Mutalisks, of which only mutalisks are likely to get in range. On January 24 2014 17:19 Dingobloo wrote:They keep the categories broad so they are easily understood and allow for emergent behavior, as such there is no "static defense" category, it is merely a "building." Having an"armored"allows for some interesting overlaps with units that are good against armored while "biological" adds some flavor to the zerg buildings. this is mumbo jumbo. they can program the game any way they want. if the problem they are solving is STATIC D WITH SWARM HOSTS by BUFFING TEMPEST, then just buff tempest against spore crawlers or spores + spines. period. they painted themselves into a corner by designing the game in a way that necessitates these ridiculously specific changes, so it's asinine for them to continue the charade of broad categorical design so players can "understand better." they're already balancing the game around the top level of play anyway and if you're good enough to be in gold league or above you know enough about the game that you can follow the patch notes. how is adding "+whatever% damage against zerg spore crawlers" to a tooltip somehow going to confuse the shit out of players who already have to check the tooltips for damage bonuses against any other category? if they actually want to address balance as a priority then pointless piddling issues like "some bronze leaguer might not immediately pick up on how the tempest works" shouldn't even enter the same area code as the discussion we're havingOn January 24 2014 17:19 Dingobloo wrote:They likely don't mind if tempests harass bases, the tempest was always pitched as a siege unit designed to put pressure on your opponent, the important part is that it's not the Ultimate Weapon, it simply doesn't have the damage or splash needed to be the be-all-end all of an army. that's irrelevant. there is no need for protoss to be able to do extra damage to any building other than spore crawlers or spine crawlers, so implementing that into the game is an unnecessary buff that will encourage stupid tempest troll builds in mid leagues and give another protoss unit another random, unlikely utility it never needed in the first place. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
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SeXyBaCk
Switzerland174 Posts
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VArsovskiSC
Macedonia563 Posts
Answer yourselves the following: --> Will anyone of you use TW as a 100 energy ability ?? Ever ?? Question: --> Why do people think Ghost buff is good ?? Answer yourselves the follwong: --> Will Storms be used in PvT as an opener now.., Ever ??, or the result would be the following --> we'll always see the "Mana" build - i.e. - the double-Forge and Colossus all over in PvTs again and again and again.. ?? ============================================ None of these address the real issues - that is Terran stability of TvP and ZvP lategame.. If Terran army stability is the problem vs Protoss or even mech (not just cause of the sake of mech as a tool to work for nostalgic reasons back from BW, but as a tool to give alternative to not decide the matchup by how well can someone split Marines).. Why not experiment with Widow-Mine ?? (any sort that's not related to splash damage or radius amount - i.e. - omit the ones would affect Zerg).. Some buffs for it maybe ?? If PvZ lategame is the problem - why not experiment with SwarmHost nerfs but make the unit with reduced cost ?? - the unit itself is totally useless without the upgrade and too useful with it.. It's a lair-tech unit that noone uses on lair, but as a late-game game-breaking unit instead.. ============================================ Terran see those Protoss nerf changes good, but problem is that they will result in Protoss not using a thing or two.. And instead of buffing totally underused Terran units - what is now done is - offer "anything" to "satiate" thirst of those who suffered.. Like really - makes no sense at all If anything - Terran doesn't need stronger "tech" branch - such as Ghosts being now stronger when P goes for Templar opening.. But what they need is a staple "core" if you will - unit beside the Marine.. Any effort that would make any other unit "core" - whether it being out from the Factory, or from Starport - will enable Terran alternatives.. So far the best "candidate" seeming by far is the Widow Mine - it has the 2 core characteristics --> relatively low cost, decent cost-efficiency, easily-produced, AND - attacks both ground and air.. AND - is invisible by default (some "douchebags" might require that as well)..  All there needs to be done is to make "transitions" more viable for the Terran.. Or at least less vulnerable at least to better buy the time needed while making all that infrastructure work behind it.. That's all Once THAT's done - THEN experiment with things like Hydra buffs, i.e. - new "fresh" blood in the game.. Really feels "not suitable" at the very least what's offered.. ============================================ What's even worse and more worrying - is the majority of positive feedbacks IMO | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
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VArsovskiSC
Macedonia563 Posts
On January 24 2014 17:36 Danglars wrote: I'm so glad Blizzard's tempering their changes in the Protoss department. Slight changes to msc abilities, slight changes to their strength against terran. I'm pretty impressed. AND - the result being --> will you use TimeWarp again EVER ?? - remember that Recall and PO now would cost the very same amount.. ?? Jeez, can't understand the world I'm living in.. | ||
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Waise
3165 Posts
On January 24 2014 17:32 SeXyBaCk wrote: TBH hydra buff sounds silly indeed. Stargate openings will just vanish entirely, so the whole meta game shifts. Why would anyone make roaches anymore if you can just make hydras for a bit more minerals? Some changes needed to swarp hosts. How about make them cost to replenish, like carriers, plus they dont auto replenish. so you have to frigging click on them. The act that they spawn units all by themselves, make them like a 30 range unit. again, like 90% of swarm host suggestions i see, this would cripple swarm hosts in the midgame (before it reaches the endgame static defense turtle stage) when they are a CORE ELEMENT of the zerg army because of templar deathballs. once colossus and templar are both in the protoss composition, it is literally not possible for a zerg player of equal skill to engage directly and win without swarm hosts. in the mid/mid-lategame SH are needed to zone out templar so they can't instagib every viper with feedbacks and turn a roach hydra viper army into just a bunch of unmaxed roach hydra. templar counter every ground unit zerg has until the swarm host AND they counter vipers, so if you're going to nerf them you also need to give us a new tech that counters or matches templar effectively. also, part of swarm host positioning and strategy is being able to send one wave of locusts at the army and then another wave where you think the army will be next. if i'm paying for every locust then suddenly i can't zone or pressure the protoss army by spamming locusts and my composition loses a lot of its effectiveness. the difference between swarm hosts and carriers is that interceptors don't time out. if my locusts are going to waddle back to their swarm hosts after timing out, fine, we can talk mineral cost. otherwise, it's just a nerf that will kill zerg midgame and only encourage more muta muta muta muta muta since ground would be unwinnable for Z | ||
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drkcid
Spain196 Posts
MSC nerf -> Timewarp, another element of the game that will collect dust because nobody will use it. Hydra buff -> IDK. Tempest buff -> Seems ok in PvZ but only if Z plays too defensive, what will happen if you go skytoss against P and T with buffed tempest? Just my first impressions. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
This is really the magnitude of a buff terran would need against protoss, yet they randomly give it to zerg instead. | ||
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Waise
3165 Posts
On January 24 2014 17:40 VArsovskiSC wrote: if your MSC is with your army and you don't want to recall, ALL your energy is for time warps. you can still cast a time warp and recall if you want to. so yes, obviously protoss will still fucking use it, are you kidding me? do you actually know how strong timewarp is? force fields + time warps + storms on roach hydra is one of the reasons playing ZvP without swarm hosts is a nightmare.AND - the result being --> will you use TimeWarp again EVER ?? - remember that Recall and PO now would cost the very same amount.. ?? Jeez, can't understand the world I'm living in.. | ||
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VArsovskiSC
Macedonia563 Posts
On January 24 2014 17:44 Bagi wrote: I still cant wrap my head around the hydra buff when zerg is doing so well compared to terran. Maybe its a part of a bigger plan where they wanna adjust the overall meta towards hydras? Reminds me of the queen buff which was protested from the start but Blizzard went through with it anyway to force zerg meta towards safer builds. This is really the magnitude of a buff terran would need against protoss, yet they randomly give it to zerg instead. If so - then what they lack is nerf to game-breaking strength of mass SwarmHost.. Giving Hydras as an alternative core ZvP unit - yeeey, but the problem is - despite that - people will still use the SwarmHost unless the Hydra is even more broken.. | ||
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pieroog
Poland146 Posts
I don't know whether tempest buff is ok, but don't worry about other races - that DMG will be to bio only buildings - so only applied to zerg. | ||
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Waise
3165 Posts
On January 24 2014 17:44 Bagi wrote: I still cant wrap my head around the hydra buff when zerg is doing so well compared to terran. Maybe its a part of a bigger plan where they wanna adjust the overall meta towards hydras? Reminds me of the queen buff which was protested from the start but Blizzard went through with it anyway to force zerg meta towards safer builds. This is really the magnitude of a buff terran would need against protoss, yet they randomly give it to zerg instead. right now there are two viable ways to win ZvP: muta switch or mass swarm host (or defend an all-in, but protoss doesn't need to all-in to succeed in the matchup). every protoss player in the world complains constantly about both of those units. now they're complaining about the idea of one of the worst zerg units actually becoming strong so we have other options it's not about winrates, it's about quality of gameplay. it's like P just wants to be able to build colossus/templar without zerg having any counter to it. you can't bust P. you can't win without SH, but SH are OP. you can't win without muta switching, but then mutas are OP. maybe we should give protoss players a crack at designing this race if they know how to keep it balanced without letting us have mobility (mutas) zoning tools (swarm hosts) or core army strength (hydras)?? | ||
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Dingobloo
Australia1903 Posts
On January 24 2014 17:27 Waise wrote: this is mumbo jumbo. they can program the game any way they want. if the problem they are solving is STATIC D WITH SWARM HOSTS by BUFFING TEMPEST, then just buff tempest against spore crawlers or spores + spines. period. they painted themselves into a corner by designing the game in a way that necessitates these ridiculously specific changes, so it's asinine for them to continue the charade of broad categorical design so players can "understand better." they're already balancing the game around the top level of play anyway and if you're good enough to be in gold league or above you know enough about the game that you can follow the patch notes. how is adding "+whatever% damage against zerg spore crawlers" to a tooltip somehow going to confuse the shit out of players who already have to check the tooltips for damage bonuses against any other category? if they actually want to address balance as a priority then pointless piddling issues like "some bronze leaguer might not immediately pick up on how the tempest works" shouldn't even enter the same area code as the discussion we're having It's really not mumbo jumbo, you're right that they can program the game however they want, but they always strive to provide broad and easily understood rules because they've learned that lesson from doing multiple games, check out Rein of Chaos' damage structure for instance where you need to take the damage type and there's even more ridiculousness on top of that, they learned the lesson real quick that it's not just arbitrary design nonsense that it actually has an effect on the comprehensibility of the game. | ||
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ETisME
12627 Posts
On January 24 2014 17:44 Bagi wrote: I still cant wrap my head around the hydra buff when zerg is doing so well compared to terran. Maybe its a part of a bigger plan where they wanna adjust the overall meta towards hydras? Reminds me of the queen buff which was protested from the start but Blizzard went through with it anyway to force zerg meta towards safer builds. This is really the magnitude of a buff terran would need against protoss, yet they randomly give it to zerg instead. it's about ZvP, it make toss harder to grab that fast third with triple stargate into skytoss and zerg has to go swarmhosts in that situation. and this is more than just about balance, this is more to do with not wanting to have more swarmhost style. Hopefully this will help out. | ||
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Ravomat
Germany422 Posts
On January 24 2014 17:40 VArsovskiSC wrote: AND - the result being --> will you use TimeWarp again EVER ?? - remember that Recall and PO now would cost the very same amount.. ?? Jeez, can't understand the world I'm living in.. That's because you are either dumb or not paying any attention. Triple timewarp is a big reason why Terrans die to blink all ins. It can decide lategame battles in every matchup especially when storm is done, this is also when recall and PO don't help in the slightest. Double timewarp is still pretty good. The only thing they forgot was to use player colors on the timewarp globe. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On January 24 2014 17:34 VArsovskiSC wrote: Question: --> Seriously: why does TimeWarp nerf have so much positive feedback ?? Answer yourselves the following: --> Will anyone of you use TW as a 100 energy ability ?? Ever ?? Imo it has so much feedback because there lacks an option "it doesn't matter". | ||
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Asturas
Finland587 Posts
In the other topic concerning balance maps somebody wrote that Terrans are not innovative enough. That made me write this post. I consider Korean Terran players to be the best players in SC2. They are, in my opinion, the most innovative, most stubborn in trying to find ways of winning and finally with some exceptions the are simply the best. I write with some exceptions, because we never can forget about brilliant geniuses like Jaedong, Parting, Rain and so on - absolutely top tier of Z and P. The reason why Terrans seem to be non-innovative is because, like somebody already mentioned, over a time Terrans got stripped of from all timings, and all scary harassment options - usually if any Terran tactics seems to be to strong, Blizzard is not "observing". They just nerf immediately. On the other hand BL-infestor era lasted for many months and now we have all sorts of extremely strong tactics from Protoss. And I can't see Blizzard having idea, or even willing to change that quickly. Point is, that we came to the moment that only standard play from Terrans is viable. I have the feeling that we are all being punished for the fact that Korean Terrans are simply the best. The best of the best will survive, will find the ways to win tournaments. And for that reason D. Kim will always have stats to prove his point. To prove that game is balanced. And no, I don't like proposed changes. They will either create new all-in timings (Hydra change), some sort of rushes (Tempest change), are not enough (PO change) or will have different than intended effect (Ghost change). | ||
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