EPTOn another note, I'm also thinking about team games, where both of these units shine. This can't be the answer.
blizzard :/
1/24 Balance test map - Page 28
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Constructive criticism is welcome, but no mindless SC2/Developer bashing in this thread. | ||
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AnonymousSC2
United States189 Posts
On another note, I'm also thinking about team games, where both of these units shine. This can't be the answer. blizzard :/ | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
And the oracle | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
If you want to make it good vs drops, make it 13 range with slightly higher damage and only last for 10-15 seconds. Otherwise cut the freakin range it's ridiculous that the only thing that can outrange a tier 1 spell that lasts for a minute is tempests... -_________- | ||
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Headnoob
Australia2108 Posts
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architecture
United States643 Posts
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ETisME
12889 Posts
I think this might help Terran quite a lot actually. This might sound silly but the 10 second should make Terran 2 base timing against a quick 3rd toss a lot more scarier since they rely on storm finishing just in time. A 10 second advantage would be incredibly powerful. Time Warp energy cost increased from 75 to 100 I quite like this change since this means blink stalkers do not have the power to end the game as easily as before as time warp is harder to obtain, I have proposed this previously and happy to see this. Ghosts build with the energy upgrade built in I think this buff maybe better than most people would expect. I don't know how big it will be onto chargelot templar opening though, it would be a shame if this buff kill it since chargelot templar is a pretty cool style. I am not sure if it will help mech as I don't use ghost for mech in TvP. Overall, TvP definitly should be better. But they should also fix the DT/Blink stalkers issue (too hard to scout). Also what I liked about The PO time change is that it won't kill off proxy oracle completely (it rarely does that gamebreaking damage anymore as well) Hydralisk cost decreased from 100/50 to 100/25 With the decrease in gas, the upgrades are a bit more affordable? But it still won't be too game breaking since ling hydra in ZvP is a very mineral starve composition, the lower gas will help the transition. I still can't see this buff doing too much in other matchup unless someone discover some cool timing. On second thought, this might be an awesome step forward. This might lead to more mid game trading instead of fast swarmhost builds. Tempest buff uhhhhh.......this one I think is the most silly change ever. I can understand though since swarmhost is a difficult strategy to fix. I think they should start by nerfing void rays or buffing hydras (in terms of AA) or buffing corruptors, then they can nerf swarmhost strategy. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On January 24 2014 13:31 ETisME wrote: Photon Overcharge duration decreased from 60 to 50 I think this might help Terran quite a lot actually. This might sound silly but the 10 second should make Terran 2 base timing against a quick 3rd toss a lot more scarier since they rely on storm finishing just in time. A 10 second advantage would be incredibly powerful. How many times have we all seen PvT where the Terran parks his army outside of the Protoss's base as Storm is 3/4 done and the casters say "He doesn't seem to know if Storm isn't done or if P is just baiting." How do you expect this to matter? edit: and of course the Terran could Scan to find out, attack if he sees research still going, and then Storm finishes halfway through the battle and the Terran loses his whole army to two casts. | ||
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SpeedyBozar
England56 Posts
Protoss and mech terran can camp for 20 mins on three bases, then take 4th and never ever attack. They tech up to unbeatable deathballs of ravens + vikings + tanks (+battlecruisers) / void rays, high templars, tempests, carriers (+colossi) and it is incredibly hard for zerg to stop. Same way zerg is extremely strong in the mid game because his economy and gigantic unit production speed kicks in so fast so terrans need bunkers + tanks and protosses need cannons + forcefields to hold these powerful mid game pushes. Main ramp has to be 2 hex wide, natural ramps have to be 7-11 hexes wide and third bases have to be very open so the zerg has any chance to stop mech terrans and protosses from getting their deathballs. The game is extremely imbalanced in general and that causes huge limitations. Maps have these ridiculously strict conditions. Race balance is so extremely fragile that even a little change can cause huge problems in some matchups. And then what David Kim does is to suggest these ridiculous changes that don't solve any problems. Basically if David Kim was a gardener and he had a sick tree, he would just paint its leaves to green to make it look like the tree is absolutely fine. Is it enough for me to say David Kim is a bad game designer or do I need more? | ||
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ETisME
12889 Posts
On January 24 2014 13:34 pure.Wasted wrote: How many times have we all seen PvT where the Terran parks his army outside of the Protoss's base as Storm is 3/4 done and the casters say "He doesn't seem to know if Storm isn't done or if P is just baiting." How do you expect this to matter? You are forgetting that with the new time warp cost, every PO he uses will affect his ability to time warp later. This makes the timing a lot deadlier because terran do poke and drop to force PO. And if storm is ready, then it just means he missed the timing, no? this is why it is called a timing attack | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On a serious topic, brb downloading this patch and this map to see this. There is only 1 thing that actually bothers me: what is the point in buffing ghosts when the actual hard counters to mech play in PvT are carriers and/or timings that hit before mech can really turtle. Moreover: as everyone can agree PO change is way too careful if we look at tempest and/or hydra (arguable) changes. P. S. Dammit Blizzard, let me get my patch downloaded. | ||
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AnonymousSC2
United States189 Posts
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dc302
Australia576 Posts
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MrLightning
306 Posts
On January 24 2014 13:53 lolfail9001 wrote: I still wait when DK will listen to my only balance suggestion: remove protoss. Problem solved. On a serious topic, brb downloading this patch and this map to see this. There is only 1 thing that actually bothers me: what is the point in buffing ghosts when the actual hard counters to mech play in PvT are carriers and/or timings that hit before mech can really turtle. Moreover: as everyone can agree PO change is way too careful if we look at tempest and/or hydra (arguable) changes. P. S. Dammit Blizzard, let me get my patch downloaded. I love you. In my dreams every night I see David Kim announcing the removal of Protoss. I think that by buffing ghosts they want to make bio so good that everyone forgets about mech. Carriers should be removed from the game or nerfed. They are really strong right now, increase their build time by 60 seconds. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On January 24 2014 04:20 Grumbels wrote: I tend to think that some SC2 match-ups (PvZ *cough*) can become stale if left alone and that patching to spice them up is a necessary evil even if realistically you should want the players to develop new strategies themselves. The problem is that there is no proper motivation for the players if there are no balance concerns. If PvZ really is 50/50 in these late-game scenarios then the players have no reason to try and steer the game away from them. Huh, PvZ stale? There is so much variety in that match-up from openings to compositions to strategies and that is not taking into account what the map advantages and disadvantages. I don't know how you get that notion, sorry. Heck, there is a PvZ strategy guide in the SC2 strategy section which talks about the evolution of one major style. It shows that strategy and play style is an iterative process. Is the rise of turtle SH a response? I'd want a lot more time for Protoss players before intervention. I'm fucked off about this patch, to be honest. Fine, nerf the MSC and the PO a little to help out Terran. Other than that, leave the fucking game alone. Hopefully they rescind most of these changes and tweak the changes that should go through. Hydras, Ghosts and Tempests can be left alone. I'll be playing the test map and giving my feedback too.Thanks, Blizzard, not. | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
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Dingobloo
Australia1903 Posts
On January 24 2014 14:19 aZealot wrote: Huh, PvZ stale? There is so much variety in that match-up from openings to compositions to strategies and that is not taking into account what the map advantages and disadvantages. I don't know how you get that notion, sorry. Heck, there is a PvZ strategy guide in the SC2 strategy section which talks about the evolution of one major style. It shows that strategy and play style is an iterative process. Is the rise of turtle SH a response? I'd want a lot more time for Protoss players before intervention. I'm fucked off about this patch, to be honest. Fine, nerf the MSC and the PO a little to help out Terran. Other than that, leave the fucking game alone. Hopefully they rescind most of these changes and tweak the changes that should go through. Hydras, Ghosts and Tempests can be left alone. I'll be playing the test map and giving my feedback too.Thanks, Blizzard, not. I'm not sure which PvZ's you've been watching but almost all of the latest ones have been awful, and not just the swamhost focused ones. And it's down to one simple problem: Zerg mobile anti air hasn't been good enough for a while. Mutas provided a reprive before protoss started really commiting to stargates but we're heading towards a convergence where stargate into collossus into high tech star gate is basically the only option with the only choice being how many voidrays or Phoenix you're fighting. Hydra buff is definitely necessary, and I'm still not sure this is the correct one but I think it's better then what we'd have had if they had just let this patch continue. | ||
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KirkSC
10 Posts
Time Warp: I think this nerf could be more significant than people think, If time warp costs more energy it would be much harder to timewarp and recall, that timing will be delayed. Also you can no longer lay down 2 timewarps and have recall. Overcharge: Does not seem like a big enough change. The range seems too large but i kind of like it that way, I believe it needs a dps change, maybe even something that forces micro but rewards it as well. for example lower damage but give it a slow aoe projectile similar to fungal but slower and maybe smaller splash idk this is just crappy theory-crafting. Hydra change: Seems like the worst way to buff zerg early game, if you get the hydras out they would be op. but i imagine every protoss will be trying to prevent you from living that long. im excited for the implications that would have on zvz and to a certain extent zvt. Tempest change: If they are trying to buff tempest in order to beat swarmhost, it feels like they completely eliminate the slim chance a zerg has in ultra late game vs protoss. But if they are aiming to reward players who make tempest quickly, say you scout swarmhost instead of going collossus or ht it would be viable to make tempest, that would be sort of interesting... This just doesn't seem like the way to do it. | ||
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MrLightning
306 Posts
On January 24 2014 14:34 shin_toss wrote: Good thing there is Starbow You said it! And soon Starbow will replace SC2 in GSL and WCS and all the other major tournaments, and with the money you give them the kids who made Starbow will buy Blizzard and make Starbow 2 which will be a great disappointment to everyone  | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On January 24 2014 14:44 MrLightning wrote: You said it! And soon Starbow will replace SC2 in GSL and WCS and all the other major tournaments, and with the money you give them the kids who made Starbow will buy Blizzard and make Starbow 2 which will be a great disappointment to everyone sad but true | ||
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Dingobloo
Australia1903 Posts
Overcharge: Does not seem like a big enough change. The range seems too large but i kind of like it that way, I believe it needs a dps change, maybe even something that forces micro but rewards it as well. for example lower damage but give it a slow aoe projectile similar to fungal but slower and maybe smaller splash idk this is just crappy theory-crafting. . I'd be interesting to see higher damage, lower duration (Maybe even significantly so), so the goal for the protoss would be to trap their opponent in for the full duration of the overpower, and the opponents objective is to bait it, and get out, this way it would work like a short "get off me" and it incentivises stuff like baiting it with blink, stim and burrow and pulling away. | ||
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