On January 24 2014 03:57 aZealot wrote: Oh well, I suppose a patch was inevitable. I do hope that this will be the last one for a long while.
I tend to think that some SC2 match-ups (PvZ *cough*) can become stale if left alone and that patching to spice them up is a necessary evil even if realistically you should want the players to develop new strategies themselves. The problem is that there is no proper motivation for the players if there are no balance concerns. If PvZ really is 50/50 in these late-game scenarios then the players have no reason to try and steer the game away from them.
Huh, PvZ stale? There is so much variety in that match-up from openings to compositions to strategies and that is not taking into account what the map advantages and disadvantages. I don't know how you get that notion, sorry. Heck, there is a PvZ strategy guide in the SC2 strategy section which talks about the evolution of one major style. It shows that strategy and play style is an iterative process. Is the rise of turtle SH a response? I'd want a lot more time for Protoss players before intervention.
I'm fucked off about this patch, to be honest. Fine, nerf the MSC and the PO a little to help out Terran. Other than that, leave the fucking game alone. Hopefully they rescind most of these changes and tweak the changes that should go through. Hydras, Ghosts and Tempests can be left alone. I'll be playing the test map and giving my feedback too.Thanks, Blizzard, not.
I'm not sure which PvZ's you've been watching but almost all of the latest ones have been awful, and not just the swamhost focused ones.
And it's down to one simple problem: Zerg mobile anti air hasn't been good enough for a while. Mutas provided a reprive before protoss started really commiting to stargates but we're heading towards a convergence where stargate into collossus into high tech star gate is basically the only option with the only choice being how many voidrays or Phoenix you're fighting.
Hydra buff is definitely necessary, and I'm still not sure this is the correct one but I think it's better then what we'd have had if they had just let this patch continue.
Which latest ones? The most recent ones I've seen have been Code A games of Life, Symbol and Coca. Each time, it seemed to me that the better player won or lost. If it (i.e. static Z) is indeed a totally new problem, then I'd prefer to wait a while before fixing it. The same goes for if air Toss is OP. Heck, IIRC, PvZ win rates favour Z at the moment or there is not much in it.
So, I disagree that the Hydra (or Tempest) buff is "definitely necessary". I don't know where you get that from, at all.
On January 24 2014 13:38 SpeedyBozar wrote: Alright, I was warned for critisizing David Kim without any arguments. I will tell you about the arguments.
Protoss and mech terran can camp for 20 mins on three bases, then take 4th and never ever attack. They tech up to unbeatable deathballs of ravens + vikings + tanks (+battlecruisers) / void rays, high templars, tempests, carriers (+colossi) and it is incredibly hard for zerg to stop. Same way zerg is extremely strong in the mid game because his economy and gigantic unit production speed kicks in so fast so terrans need bunkers + tanks and protosses need cannons + forcefields to hold these powerful mid game pushes. Main ramp has to be 2 hex wide, natural ramps have to be 7-11 hexes wide and third bases have to be very open so the zerg has any chance to stop mech terrans and protosses from getting their deathballs.
The game is extremely imbalanced in general and that causes huge limitations. Maps have these ridiculously strict conditions. Race balance is so extremely fragile that even a little change can cause huge problems in some matchups. And then what David Kim does is to suggest these ridiculous changes that don't solve any problems. Basically if David Kim was a gardener and he had a sick tree, he would just paint its leaves to green to make it look like the tree is absolutely fine.
Is it enough for me to say David Kim is a bad game designer or do I need more?
Since nobody complained I will take it as a permission to flame David Kim as much as I want on this site.
I know people will possibly look at this as trolling or BW elitism... but why not fix the swarm host... by making it a lurker -____-. Goodbye boring as SH PvZ's, hello... a unit that's actually interesting...? :|. I don't think that this is even bad to say, I know it won't happen and that some people probably think SH are actually interesting but I hate that unit, I really do. Just a spectator, not a player.
Blizzard please just make it a lurker lol, like wtf, you really hate using BW ideas that much but your cool with making units that "imitate" them? :/.
And about the changes. Hydra change is not gonna solve anything, it will just make hydra viper timings crazy strong vs protoss, in ZvZ and ZvT everybody will just mass hydras and infestors. I know DK wants hydras to be the core universal unit for zerg, but it would make the game very stale imo.
On January 24 2014 03:57 aZealot wrote: Oh well, I suppose a patch was inevitable. I do hope that this will be the last one for a long while.
I tend to think that some SC2 match-ups (PvZ *cough*) can become stale if left alone and that patching to spice them up is a necessary evil even if realistically you should want the players to develop new strategies themselves. The problem is that there is no proper motivation for the players if there are no balance concerns. If PvZ really is 50/50 in these late-game scenarios then the players have no reason to try and steer the game away from them.
Huh, PvZ stale? There is so much variety in that match-up from openings to compositions to strategies and that is not taking into account what the map advantages and disadvantages. I don't know how you get that notion, sorry. Heck, there is a PvZ strategy guide in the SC2 strategy section which talks about the evolution of one major style. It shows that strategy and play style is an iterative process. Is the rise of turtle SH a response? I'd want a lot more time for Protoss players before intervention.
I'm fucked off about this patch, to be honest. Fine, nerf the MSC and the PO a little to help out Terran. Other than that, leave the fucking game alone. Hopefully they rescind most of these changes and tweak the changes that should go through. Hydras, Ghosts and Tempests can be left alone. I'll be playing the test map and giving my feedback too.Thanks, Blizzard, not.
I'm not sure which PvZ's you've been watching but almost all of the latest ones have been awful, and not just the swamhost focused ones.
And it's down to one simple problem: Zerg mobile anti air hasn't been good enough for a while. Mutas provided a reprive before protoss started really commiting to stargates but we're heading towards a convergence where stargate into collossus into high tech star gate is basically the only option with the only choice being how many voidrays or Phoenix you're fighting.
Hydra buff is definitely necessary, and I'm still not sure this is the correct one but I think it's better then what we'd have had if they had just let this patch continue.
Which latest ones? The most recent ones I've seen have been Code A games of Life, Symbol and Coca. Each time, it seemed to me that the better player won or lost. If it (i.e. static Z) is indeed a totally new problem, then I'd prefer to wait a while before fixing it. The same goes for if air Toss is OP. Heck, IIRC, PvZ win rates favour Z at the moment or there is not much in it.
So, I disagree that the Hydra (or Tempest) buff is "definitely necessary". I don't know where you get that from, at all.
Just from a quick search around some vods:
Classic vs Rogue is the one that made me cringe a bit.
Jaedong vs Classic (both of Classic wins are SG into Colossus builds)
Classic seems to have a really good grasp of how to win using these stargate comps in this matchup and his no frills approach is generally rather illustrative, he goes for a more immortal style in the 2nd game and it doesn't work so he just goes back to the old faithful in the third game.
Rain vs Jaedong
Both Stargate colossus games.
I wish I had more examples off hand I think there were a few more proleague games that I watched that were even more ridiculous (no ground army, all voidray colossus type stuff) and obviously each game is different but what strikes me most about these games is how focused they seemed to be, and how quickly they converge on what I would consider the most ideal and annoying protoss armies all of which intersects with my own experience playing the game.
I can't speak to the Life or Cocoa games, as I wasn't quite paying attention (and GSL vods are obviously paywalled) but I find it hard to imagine Squirtle didn't win in a similar fashion.
Ultimately the Hydra changes hit two birds with one stone, they shift the balance from SH + Static Defense to more mobile armies, as well as providing alternate ways to combat these kinds of armies. I feel like accessible mobile zerg anti-air has been a long time coming.
I can't believe that Blizzard legitimately thought the Swarm Host would be used offensively in the mid-game as Blizzard intended at the start of the HOTS. I wish they had put more thought into it. The Swarm Host was almost as poorly thought out as pre-nerf Hellbats or the Warhound.
Too bad Blizzard routinely ignores the community. I told them what would happen with the Swarm Host the day I saw it. Same thing about Hellbats too...
On January 24 2014 03:57 aZealot wrote: Oh well, I suppose a patch was inevitable. I do hope that this will be the last one for a long while.
I tend to think that some SC2 match-ups (PvZ *cough*) can become stale if left alone and that patching to spice them up is a necessary evil even if realistically you should want the players to develop new strategies themselves. The problem is that there is no proper motivation for the players if there are no balance concerns. If PvZ really is 50/50 in these late-game scenarios then the players have no reason to try and steer the game away from them.
Huh, PvZ stale? There is so much variety in that match-up from openings to compositions to strategies and that is not taking into account what the map advantages and disadvantages. I don't know how you get that notion, sorry. Heck, there is a PvZ strategy guide in the SC2 strategy section which talks about the evolution of one major style. It shows that strategy and play style is an iterative process. Is the rise of turtle SH a response? I'd want a lot more time for Protoss players before intervention.
I'm fucked off about this patch, to be honest. Fine, nerf the MSC and the PO a little to help out Terran. Other than that, leave the fucking game alone. Hopefully they rescind most of these changes and tweak the changes that should go through. Hydras, Ghosts and Tempests can be left alone. I'll be playing the test map and giving my feedback too.Thanks, Blizzard, not.
I'm not sure which PvZ's you've been watching but almost all of the latest ones have been awful, and not just the swamhost focused ones.
And it's down to one simple problem: Zerg mobile anti air hasn't been good enough for a while. Mutas provided a reprive before protoss started really commiting to stargates but we're heading towards a convergence where stargate into collossus into high tech star gate is basically the only option with the only choice being how many voidrays or Phoenix you're fighting.
Hydra buff is definitely necessary, and I'm still not sure this is the correct one but I think it's better then what we'd have had if they had just let this patch continue.
Which latest ones? The most recent ones I've seen have been Code A games of Life, Symbol and Coca. Each time, it seemed to me that the better player won or lost. If it (i.e. static Z) is indeed a totally new problem, then I'd prefer to wait a while before fixing it. The same goes for if air Toss is OP. Heck, IIRC, PvZ win rates favour Z at the moment or there is not much in it.
So, I disagree that the Hydra (or Tempest) buff is "definitely necessary". I don't know where you get that from, at all.
Just from a quick search around some vods:
Classic vs Rogue is the one that made me cringe a bit.
Classic seems to have a really good grasp of how to win using these stargate comps in this matchup and his no frills approach is generally rather illustrative, he goes for a more immortal style in the 2nd game and it doesn't work so he just goes back to the old faithful in the third game.
I wish I had more examples off hand I think there were a few more proleague games that I watched that were even more ridiculous (no ground army, all voidray colossus type stuff) and obviously each game is different but what strikes me most about these games is how focused they seemed to be, and how quickly they converge on what I would consider the most ideal and annoying protoss armies all of which intersects with my own experience playing the game.
I can't speak to the Life or Cocoa games, as I wasn't quite paying attention (and GSL vods are obviously paywalled) but I find it hard to imagine Squirtle didn't win in a similar fashion.
Ultimately the Hydra changes hit two birds with one stone, they shift the balance from SH + Static Defense to more mobile armies, as well as providing alternate ways to combat these kinds of armies. I feel like accessible mobile zerg anti-air has been a long time coming.
All of those games made me cringe, espcially the 50 minute Jaedong game, 15 minutes of a stalker collsus deathball vs swarm hosts ... Jeez.. I havent played in a couple months is the meta really getting that bad or are those some extreme examples?
On January 24 2014 03:57 aZealot wrote: Oh well, I suppose a patch was inevitable. I do hope that this will be the last one for a long while.
I tend to think that some SC2 match-ups (PvZ *cough*) can become stale if left alone and that patching to spice them up is a necessary evil even if realistically you should want the players to develop new strategies themselves. The problem is that there is no proper motivation for the players if there are no balance concerns. If PvZ really is 50/50 in these late-game scenarios then the players have no reason to try and steer the game away from them.
Huh, PvZ stale? There is so much variety in that match-up from openings to compositions to strategies and that is not taking into account what the map advantages and disadvantages. I don't know how you get that notion, sorry. Heck, there is a PvZ strategy guide in the SC2 strategy section which talks about the evolution of one major style. It shows that strategy and play style is an iterative process. Is the rise of turtle SH a response? I'd want a lot more time for Protoss players before intervention.
I'm fucked off about this patch, to be honest. Fine, nerf the MSC and the PO a little to help out Terran. Other than that, leave the fucking game alone. Hopefully they rescind most of these changes and tweak the changes that should go through. Hydras, Ghosts and Tempests can be left alone. I'll be playing the test map and giving my feedback too.Thanks, Blizzard, not.
I'm not sure which PvZ's you've been watching but almost all of the latest ones have been awful, and not just the swamhost focused ones.
And it's down to one simple problem: Zerg mobile anti air hasn't been good enough for a while. Mutas provided a reprive before protoss started really commiting to stargates but we're heading towards a convergence where stargate into collossus into high tech star gate is basically the only option with the only choice being how many voidrays or Phoenix you're fighting.
Hydra buff is definitely necessary, and I'm still not sure this is the correct one but I think it's better then what we'd have had if they had just let this patch continue.
Which latest ones? The most recent ones I've seen have been Code A games of Life, Symbol and Coca. Each time, it seemed to me that the better player won or lost. If it (i.e. static Z) is indeed a totally new problem, then I'd prefer to wait a while before fixing it. The same goes for if air Toss is OP. Heck, IIRC, PvZ win rates favour Z at the moment or there is not much in it.
So, I disagree that the Hydra (or Tempest) buff is "definitely necessary". I don't know where you get that from, at all.
Just from a quick search around some vods:
Classic vs Rogue is the one that made me cringe a bit.
Classic seems to have a really good grasp of how to win using these stargate comps in this matchup and his no frills approach is generally rather illustrative, he goes for a more immortal style in the 2nd game and it doesn't work so he just goes back to the old faithful in the third game.
I wish I had more examples off hand I think there were a few more proleague games that I watched that were even more ridiculous (no ground army, all voidray colossus type stuff) and obviously each game is different but what strikes me most about these games is how focused they seemed to be, and how quickly they converge on what I would consider the most ideal and annoying protoss armies all of which intersects with my own experience playing the game.
I can't speak to the Life or Cocoa games, as I wasn't quite paying attention (and GSL vods are obviously paywalled) but I find it hard to imagine Squirtle didn't win in a similar fashion.
Ultimately the Hydra changes hit two birds with one stone, they shift the balance from SH + Static Defense to more mobile armies, as well as providing alternate ways to combat these kinds of armies. I feel like accessible mobile zerg anti-air has been a long time coming.
Thanks, you've given me something to think about. That said, I am still not sure if making the Hydra cheaper (gas-wise) is the way to go about it. I'll have a look at those games a little later. Also, even if the SH-turtle style is the slow response to an optimized (as you say) SG focused P build, I'd still rather it play out rather than making a change purely because of it.
Bear in mind also that the stronger Muta in HOTS means that SG is usually the preferred opening for P.
I'll have a look at those games a little later (I may have already seen a couple).
On January 24 2014 15:08 Vasoline73 wrote: I know people will possibly look at this as trolling or BW elitism... but why not fix the swarm host... by making it a lurker -____-. Goodbye boring as SH PvZ's, hello... a unit that's actually interesting...? :|. I don't think that this is even bad to say, I know it won't happen and that some people probably think SH are actually interesting but I hate that unit, I really do. Just a spectator, not a player.
Blizzard please just make it a lurker lol, like wtf, you really hate using BW ideas that much but your cool with making units that "imitate" them? :/.
If anything, making it a pseudo scourge factory makes more sense (hell, it's already available in the campaign!). Just remove the AtG off those campaign air scourge and you have an interesting AA unit that isn't just a BL overlap.
honestly though for the tempest change why not just make it a bonus against static defense? or just against fucking spore crawlers since that's literally the only reason for the change?
if spore crawlers can be buffed literally against one unit, why not buff tempest against one building? why even risk the chance that 2 tempests harassing bases from cliffs could become a thing? why would we want that in the game?
On January 24 2014 15:50 BronzeKnee wrote: I can't believe that Blizzard legitimately thought the Swarm Host would be used offensively in the mid-game as Blizzard intended at the start of the HOTS. I wish they had put more thought into it. The Swarm Host was almost as poorly thought out as pre-nerf Hellbats or the Warhound.
Too bad Blizzard routinely ignores the community. I told them what would happen with the Swarm Host the day I saw it. Same thing about Hellbats too...
love these posts. obviously what they should have done was listen to BronzeKnee. he told them, guys! it's dkim's fault for ignoring BronzeKnee!
On January 24 2014 14:34 shin_toss wrote: Good thing there is Starbow
You said it! And soon Starbow will replace SC2 in GSL and WCS and all the other major tournaments, and with the money you give them the kids who made Starbow will buy Blizzard and make Starbow 2 which will be a great disappointment to everyone
sad but true
I don´t think that will happen it more likely Blizzard will not allow major tournaments to run Starbow instead of SC2.
Remember everything that is created with the sc2 editor belongs to Blizzard and they already pointed out that they are ok with everything legal as long as no one besides them makes money with.
The worst thing about this changes is that they are going to deploy test map in about 2 weeks. Which means that we might see this live on ladder only in about month or even later. Which means that terrans gonna suffer for another month, it will be the worst wcs season ever...
On January 24 2014 14:34 shin_toss wrote: Good thing there is Starbow
You said it! And soon Starbow will replace SC2 in GSL and WCS and all the other major tournaments, and with the money you give them the kids who made Starbow will buy Blizzard and make Starbow 2 which will be a great disappointment to everyone
sad but true
I don´t think that will happen it more likely Blizzard will not allow major tournaments to run Starbow instead of SC2.
Remember everything that is created with the sc2 editor belongs to Blizzard and they already pointed out that they are ok with everything legal as long as no one besides them makes money with.
if starbow is good enough to gain its own market share, it will become its own game just like other games have before it. if it never gets good enough, it doesn't matter because major tournaments won't care about it anyway
On January 24 2014 17:04 Waise wrote: honestly though for the tempest change why not just make it a bonus against static defense? or just against fucking spore crawlers since that's literally the only reason for the change?
if spore crawlers can be buffed literally against one unit, why not buff tempest against one building? why even risk the chance that 2 tempests harassing bases from cliffs could become a thing? why would we want that in the game?
Spores are not just buffed against one unit they were buffed against ALL biological units, but the only 3 conceivable things that fly and are biological are Corruptors, Broodlords and Mutalisks, of which only mutalisks are likely to get in range.
They keep the categories broad so they are easily understood and allow for emergent behavior, as such there is no "static defense" category, it is merely a "building." Having an"armored"allows for some interesting overlaps with units that are good against armored while "biological" adds some flavor to the zerg buildings.
They likely don't mind if tempests harass bases, the tempest was always pitched as a siege unit designed to put pressure on your opponent, the important part is that it's not the Ultimate Weapon, it simply doesn't have the damage or splash needed to be the be-all-end all of an army.
EPT
