EPTTempest changes:
The Tempest is a boring unit that contributes nothing interesting to the game, so we removed it.
1/24 Balance test map - Page 27
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Constructive criticism is welcome, but no mindless SC2/Developer bashing in this thread. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
Tempest changes: The Tempest is a boring unit that contributes nothing interesting to the game, so we removed it. | ||
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Dingobloo
Australia1903 Posts
On January 24 2014 11:59 MrLightning wrote: Disgusting, is it not? That is absolutely ridiculous! I hope that this MSC nerf and Hydra buff fixes these numbers. Of course stonger measures will probably have to be taken in PvT, i foresee perhaps the removal of Blink. They will not remove blink, that's just crazy thinking, it's a perfectly balanced ability outside some strong timings and the fact that they're trying to balance around it is a testament to that. | ||
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ChoDing
United States740 Posts
then progamers will figure it out after. seriously no more update | ||
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MrLightning
306 Posts
On January 24 2014 12:00 fish83814 wrote: you are just trolling right? obviously they would never do the range buff and cast buff together Good sir, perish the thought! I am very serious. Perhaps a touch overzealous I must admit. I am just simply so very terribly excited over the guaranteed Hydra buff! I cannot wait for it to go live. This is the second greatest thing that the development team has ever done. The first being the queen range buff. | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
-Carriers already rape terran mech and they buff tempest. -1base nydus hydra allin gonna be scary. -Ghost change is ok. -MS changes are just bandages. here is an idea, revert muta speed, medivac boost, oracle speed and remove photon overcharge. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On January 24 2014 12:03 Dingobloo wrote: They will not remove blink, that's just crazy thinking, it's a perfectly balanced ability outside some strong timings and the fact that they're trying to balance around it is a testament to that. He was being facetious, referring to the fact that the numbers don't show significant imbalance at all really in any matchup. | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
-Ten second timing doesn't help PvT in any way. Terran aggression is difficult because of the Protoss's ability to punish any non-optimal defenses of Blink All-In/DT rush/Oracle rush, not because the PO is ten seconds too long. -Ten second timing might break PvP. -Casting PO still does not reward Protoss player's skill in any way, eg Dear can't cast it any better than a ladder hero. Time Warp -Time Warp is still incredibly easy to cast, eg Dear can cast it better than a Wood Leaguer, but not by much. -Time Warp still shuts down opponent's skill hard. -Time Warp can still be cast twice during battle. Completely Untouched -"All in" builds from Protoss like Proxy Oracle and Blink Stalker All-In and DT rush are still "macro openings" with little to no risk and medium to high reward. -Oracle is still not a macro unit and does not reward skillful play, eg Dear's Oracle is not going to control noticeably better than Soulkey's Oracle. Ghost Energy -Helps late game Bio (by how much is up in the air) even though that's not what the purpose of the buff is. -Doesn't help mech at all even though that's what the purpose of the buff is. Blizzard, if you want to buff mech units, can you just buff mech units? Seriously. Make Banshees more of a mineral dump unit. Decrease Viking transformation time to allow them to harass again. Buff tanks. Nerf Immortals. This isn't rocket science. -More upgrades removed from the game! Fewer decisions to make as a player, no opportunity for the opponent to negate your tech by destroying the researching building. Hydra change is too ridiculous to possibly go through (heyo Oracle speed!), so no need to bother with that. I don't see enough Tempests in TvP to know what effect that might have. | ||
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
On January 24 2014 10:35 sagefreke wrote: They're good now. But only after you've dumped 300/300 resources into upgrades midgame before making a single 100/50 Hydra. Hydralisks hard-counter Gateway units, even Zealots with Muscular Augments, Grooved Spines and a sufficient clump. | ||
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Baadbeat
France203 Posts
Ghost changes could be quite interesting, but won't it just force toss to go Colo before HT? Well at least it makes for quicker ghosts, which makes it easier to transition for terran once he spots HT. MSC spell changes, I have to wait and see. Anyway, I hope that the changes that get through fix some of the PVT issues! | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
On January 24 2014 12:29 Baadbeat wrote: Well the Hydra and tempest buffs were quite unexpected... I think that decreasing the cost in minerals for the hydra would've been better, because this will make Zerg really strong early mid game. But I guess it's just an attempt to make zerg go less into SH turtle... But at the cost of making the zerg even stronger in early game, mid game. Also mutas in zvz are now even less possible... Making tempest stronger against buildings, I understand, but I do not comprehend... This will allow toss to just snipe/recall bases even faster imo, and does not make for more entertaining games... I think these changes were't really needed since pvz was quite balanced, they just needed to fix the SH turtle issiue, since it does not really make for entertaining games (for me at least). Ghost changes could be quite interesting, but won't it just force toss to go Colo before HT? Well at least it makes for quicker ghosts, which makes it easier to transition for terran once he spots HT. MSC spell changes, I have to wait and see. Anyway, I hope that the changes that get through fix some of the PVT issues! Good. Hopefully that means blink builds will actually have an economic impact on Toss now. | ||
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ArTiFaKs
United States1229 Posts
On January 24 2014 12:20 pure.Wasted wrote: Photon Overcharge -Ten second timing doesn't help PvT in any way. Terran aggression is difficult because of the Protoss's ability to punish any non-optimal defenses of Blink All-In/DT rush/Oracle rush, not because the PO is ten seconds too long. -Ten second timing might break PvP. -Casting PO still does not reward Protoss player's skill in any way, eg Dear can't cast it any better than a ladder hero. Time Warp -Time Warp is still incredibly easy to cast, eg Dear can cast it better than a Wood Leaguer, but not by much. -Time Warp still shuts down opponent's skill hard. -Time Warp can still be cast twice during battle. Completely Untouched -"All in" builds from Protoss like Proxy Oracle and Blink Stalker All-In and DT rush are still "macro openings" with little to no risk and medium to high reward. -Oracle is still not a macro unit and does not reward skillful play, eg Dear's Oracle is not going to control noticeably better than Soulkey's Oracle. Ghost Energy -Helps late game Bio (by how much is up in the air) even though that's not what the purpose of the buff is. -Doesn't help mech at all even though that's what the purpose of the buff is. Blizzard, if you want to buff mech units, can you just buff mech units? Seriously. Make Banshees more of a mineral dump unit. Decrease Viking transformation time to allow them to harass again. Buff tanks. Nerf Immortals. This isn't rocket science. -More upgrades removed from the game! Fewer decisions to make as a player, no opportunity for the opponent to negate your tech by destroying the researching building. Hydra change is too ridiculous to possibly go through (heyo Oracle speed!), so no need to bother with that. I don't see enough Tempests in TvP to know what effect that might have. First of all, some of your "arguments" are so short sighted and biased it's not even funny. Buffing mech units? Seriously? Mech is currently destroying Zerg right now and making them a lot better will kill that match up that is currently very interesting. Second, removing the Ghost upgrades DOES help terran mech, because everyone complains that the cost of Ghosts with that comp is what deters them from being used, so removing the upgrade helps just that problem. If building a couple ghosts means 1 or 2 less tanks, well the powerful Ghosts with more energy means more EMP = a much weaker protoss army. Immortals that get EMP'd are practically useless because the only thing that makes them good is the hardened shield. If you have ever watched a TvP where mech is being used, if the Terran gets Ghosts and a nice mech deathball, once EMP's are landed the Protoss army just melts. So it's a step in the right direction without completely ruining every other matchup at the same time. They are obviously committed to tweaking things, while at the same time not completely ruining the game, which is a great thing. And since your bias is just so immense I doubt you even watch any Protoss matches, you would notice that the Oracle is actually being used more in the lategame, so they accomplished their goal I would say, and Oracle openers have stabilized to where it's essentially like opening reaper. You might get a couple kills but most likely it will just be a nice scout, with more utility in the late game because of abilities. | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
On January 24 2014 12:37 ArTiFaKs wrote: First of all, some of your "arguments" are so short sighted and biased it's not even funny. Buffing mech units? Seriously? Mech is currently destroying Zerg right now and making them a lot better will kill that match up that is currently very interesting. Second, removing the Ghost upgrades DOES help terran mech, because everyone complains that the cost of Ghosts with that comp is what deters them from being used, so removing the upgrade helps just that problem. If building a couple ghosts means 1 or 2 less tanks, well the powerful Ghosts with more energy means more EMP = a much weaker protoss army. Immortals that get EMP'd are practically useless because the only thing that makes them good is the hardened shield. If you have ever watched a TvP where mech is being used, if the Terran gets Ghosts and a nice mech deathball, once EMP's are landed the Protoss army just melts. So it's a step in the right direction without completely ruining every other matchup at the same time. They are obviously committed to tweaking things, while at the same time not completely ruining the game, which is a great thing. And since your bias is just so immense I doubt you even watch any Protoss matches, you would notice that the Oracle is actually being used more in the lategame, so they accomplished their goal I would say, and Oracle openers have stabilized to where it's essentially like opening reaper. You might get a couple kills but most likely it will just be a nice scout, with more utility in the late game because of abilities. Calm down brotoss.. There are ways of buffing mech, specifically the tank, without having it drastically affect the other MUs (damage vs shields, more damage vs immortals, damage vs massive). And yes the ghost upgrade is nice, but ghosts are still expensive as hell and still hard to afford with a gas heavy mech composition. The upgrade is a one time thing, it doesn't change the fact that ghosts are just in general hard to afford. That is why they will end up just making bio stronger, and people will keep playing it instead. And so what if oracles are being used in late game PvP (who watches that boring-ass MU anyways lmao), they still allow Toss to get away with maximum greed versus Terran. They are nothing like reaper. Reapers are used only for scouting (you're lucky to get one probe kill) and oracles are used for harassment and all-ins (4 kills with one is normal). | ||
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BlueLanterna
291 Posts
On January 24 2014 12:37 ArTiFaKs wrote: First of all, some of your "arguments" are so short sighted and biased it's not even funny. Buffing mech units? Seriously? Mech is currently destroying Zerg right now and making them a lot better will kill that match up that is currently very interesting. Second, removing the Ghost upgrades DOES help terran mech, because everyone complains that the cost of Ghosts with that comp is what deters them from being used, so removing the upgrade helps just that problem. If building a couple ghosts means 1 or 2 less tanks, well the powerful Ghosts with more energy means more EMP = a much weaker protoss army. Immortals that get EMP'd are practically useless because the only thing that makes them good is the hardened shield. If you have ever watched a TvP where mech is being used, if the Terran gets Ghosts and a nice mech deathball, once EMP's are landed the Protoss army just melts. So it's a step in the right direction without completely ruining every other matchup at the same time. They are obviously committed to tweaking things, while at the same time not completely ruining the game, which is a great thing. And since your bias is just so immense I doubt you even watch any Protoss matches, you would notice that the Oracle is actually being used more in the lategame, so they accomplished their goal I would say, and Oracle openers have stabilized to where it's essentially like opening reaper. You might get a couple kills but most likely it will just be a nice scout, with more utility in the late game because of abilities. Lmfao you actually said a ghost mech army as if it wouldn't be possible to win whatever game you're talking about with basically any unit comp anyway because you are obviously so far ahead as a terran player as to be getting mech + ghosts in the first place. Removing moebius reactor does NOTHING for mech because it does NOTHING to dull the initial cost of the unit which is what people are actually complaining about if you actually knew anything about the issue. Mech is currently destroying Z? since when did mech become the go-to strategy for TvZ? it isn't, and hasn't been. | ||
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SpeedyBozar
England56 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On January 24 2014 12:37 ArTiFaKs wrote: First of all, some of your "arguments" are so short sighted and biased it's not even funny. Buffing mech units? Seriously? Mech is currently destroying Zerg right now and making them a lot better will kill that match up that is currently very interesting. You assume that I would not be OK with Zerg buffs to compensate. You assume incorrectly. Second, removing the Ghost upgrades DOES help terran mech, because everyone complains that the cost of Ghosts with that comp is what deters them from being used, so removing the upgrade helps just that problem. If building a couple ghosts means 1 or 2 less tanks, well the powerful Ghosts with more energy means more EMP = a much weaker protoss army. Immortals that get EMP'd are practically useless because the only thing that makes them good is the hardened shield. If you have ever watched a TvP where mech is being used, if the Terran gets Ghosts and a nice mech deathball, once EMP's are landed the Protoss army just melts. So it's a step in the right direction without completely ruining every other matchup at the same time. They are obviously committed to tweaking things, while at the same time not completely ruining the game, which is a great thing. Your entire argument hinges on the fact that Ghosts are now cheaper to get. But they aren't cheaper. And they aren't more powerful. They're slightly more convenient, which is to say that the time from a Terran player saying "Oh shit I need EMP" to him or her having EMP on the battlefield ready to go is slightly less. But the upgrade is optional (not every bio-ghosting player gets it), and even if a player were to get it before and now gets it for free, it frees up a grand total of... 100 gas. I think that Terrans are a bit more concerned about the fact that a dead mech army can't be replaced in time to fend off infinity Zealot/Stalker remax after Warp-in, but if you want to think that 100 gas is going to fix everything, by all means. And since your bias is just so immense I doubt you even watch any Protoss matches, you would notice that the Oracle is actually being used more in the lategame, so they accomplished their goal I would say, and Oracle openers have stabilized to where it's essentially like opening reaper. You might get a couple kills but most likely it will just be a nice scout, with more utility in the late game because of abilities. Holy shit buddy! You just compared opening Oracles to opening Reapers?! Maybe WOL BETA Reapers. Opening Reaper isn't a choice, it's a setback that every Terran takes. And if he loses his first Reaper, he's probably fucked (slower tech + fewer Marines + have to waste Scans). What happens if Protoss loses his first Oracle out of a proxy Stargate? Absolutely nothing. And you're telling me with a straight face that an Oracle on average gets the same number of kills as Reapers? Since you seem to believe you watch a lot more games than I do, why don't you tell me how many SCVs have died to Oracles in Code A so far and how many Probes have died to Reapers. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19152 Posts
On January 24 2014 12:56 SpeedyBozar wrote: Why is everybody even slightly negatively critisizing David Kim's work getting warned and banned? It could be the note at the top of the thread or the fact that it does absolutely nothing to contribute to the discussion of the OP. I would advise you to fully understand my last sentence before posting further. | ||
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MrLightning
306 Posts
On January 24 2014 12:56 SpeedyBozar wrote: Why is everybody even slightly negatively critisizing David Kim's work getting warned and banned? I hear that Germany is is nice this time of year. David Kim is doing a fine job considering the tough circumstance. I hope he continues to expand his game and conquer more territory in the game developing industry. Good changes overall, keep SC2 pure Zerg. | ||
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MidnightZL
Sweden203 Posts
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TAMinator
Australia2706 Posts
On January 24 2014 12:01 sluggaslamoo wrote: Still waiting for, Tempest changes: The Tempest is a boring unit that contributes nothing interesting to the game, so we removed it. add the swarmhost to that list | ||
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