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Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4520 Posts
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On December 22 2013 00:04 Liquid`Ret wrote: Really dislike using alterzim and heavy rain has way too many tight spaces At least the WCS veto system means that you'll probably never have to play them in WCS :p. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 21 2013 23:58 Qikz wrote: Dwf, for someone who apparently knows so much about the game it seems you're very often happy for the map pool to be the same map with 5 different textures. Having different maps which favour different builds is a lot better for the game in general. I stopped watching SC2 entirely now because every game plays out the same as no maps favour different styles. It's good that these maps can't be played in exactly the same way every other map can. Why can't you see that? Why can't you see that not being able to wall in PvZ and TvZ with less than 8 buildings is a huge problem? Speedlings are not magically wiped off the map because the playground is different... And just because a map has distinctive features doesn't mean they're good, interesting or fair (e. g. Alterzim has quite unique traits, yet it's bad and coinflippy). I have played enough team games on maps with very vulnerable naturals to know what it means. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On December 22 2013 00:03 MtlGuitarist97 wrote: There are no other styles for Terran to do in TvZ/TvP, and the Zerg/Protoss have all the options. Why is it fair that they get to choose how the game plays out but we don't? glad we have habitation station then, where the standard for terran is pretty bad. Either way most Terrans prefer to stick to one style since they don't have to vary it for the matchups. That way they can achieve superior micro, because every game will train you for all matchups atleast to some degree. So they are happy if there are only maps, that doesn't block this one style of play. Just have to hope that the maps won't be put aside, because Terran Pros will get ran over for a few month. And maybe then there is no need to balance Terran around Korean Terran anymore  . | ||
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Uvantak
Uruguay1381 Posts
On December 21 2013 12:19 mrRoflpwn wrote: Holy shit all the 1v1 maps look so similar its pathetic. Easy 3 bases in a triangle setup. Why cant we have that lava map to spice things up. Because if you add that map all the non hardcore player base will whine. This thread is giving me a headache, 50% of the posters whine about the new maps being imba and that you can't wall off on daedalus or that there's a tempest build that could be problematic on Habitation station without thinking once on the metagame that could develop from that, meanwhile to other 50% thinks that the map pool looks good and that variety is good for the game, but at the same time ~70% of the votes on the pools about the maps go to Approve.... This only further makes me think that you guys (that 50% that are whining) don't actually want to play on the weird/interesting maps, you just want to be able to wall-FE every single game and then whine about how the game is stale, while seeing how the pros play on funky maps. | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
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KatatoniK
United Kingdom978 Posts
On December 22 2013 00:21 Uvantak wrote: This only further makes me think that you guys (that 50% that are whining) don't actually want to play on the weird/interesting maps, you just want to be able to wall-FE every single game and then whine about how the game is stale, while seeing how the pros play on funky maps. There is nothing interesting about a map that encourages Zerg to just go early pool rush everything, which is basically what they are going to do on Daedalus. >_> | ||
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Uvantak
Uruguay1381 Posts
On December 22 2013 00:28 KatatoniK wrote: There is nothing interesting about a map that encourages Zerg to just go early pool rush everything, which is basically what they are going to do on Daedalus. >_> There's nothing interesting with a map that encourages Zerg go 3 hatch every game either, for this map you don't need to go early pool, you can go 15 hatch with ease too, also the main's ramp on Daedalus is a 1x one, so there shouldn't be much problems with bane bust and stuff like that (unlike like it would happen if the map had a bigger ramp). | ||
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TheFlexN
Israel472 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 22 2013 00:36 Uvantak wrote: There's nothing interesting with a map that encourages Zerg go 3 hatch every game either, for this map you don't need to go early pool, you can go 15 hatch with ease too, also the main's ramp on Daedalus is a 1x one, so there shouldn't be much problems with bane bust and stuff like that (unlike like it would happen if the map had a bigger ramp). That's exactly the point—if one side can still play its standard while the other side(s) cannot, this will lead to problems. | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 22 2013 00:43 TheDwf wrote: That's exactly the point—if one side can still play its standard while the other side(s) cannot, this will lead to problems. I don't think there's a problem if different maps force different races into doing certain things. Like, I think it's fine if Terran has to open reactor hellion on one map, as long as Zerg is forced to open a certain way on another map. I do agree, however, that if one race is constantly forced into doing the same things, regardless of map, it's a problem. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On December 22 2013 00:48 Zealously wrote: I don't think there's a problem if different maps force different races into doing certain things. Like, I think it's fine if Terran has to open reactor hellion on one map, as long as Zerg is forced to open a certain way on another map. I do agree, however, that if one race is constantly forced into doing the same things, regardless of map, it's a problem. Terran will be forced to do reactor hellion opening, which is instant lose in the current meta in TvZ where the Z got fast 3rd. There was a reason ppl didn't go hellion expand at the end of wol. | ||
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Veriol
Czech Republic502 Posts
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 22 2013 00:50 Faust852 wrote: Terran will be forced to do reactor hellion opening, which is instant lose in the current meta in TvZ where the Z got fast 3rd. There was a reason ppl didn't go hellion expand at the end of wol. I don't think you understand what I mean. Obviously, if no opening is viable for race X on map Y, then map Y should either not be in the map pool, or be changed. But as long as there is a viable opening (and more than one on most maps) for a race, I don't see a problem with one race being forced to play more aggressively or more defensively than another on specific maps. I'm not talking about any specific maps right this moment, I haven't watched or played enough to judge myself. | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
On December 22 2013 00:53 Zealously wrote: I don't think you understand what I mean. Obviously, if no opening is viable for race X on map Y, then map Y should either not be in the map pool, or be changed. But as long as there is a viable opening (and more than one on most maps) for a race, I don't see a problem with one race being forced to play more aggressively or more defensively than another on specific maps. I'm not talking about any specific maps right this moment, I haven't watched or played enough to judge myself. That's a fine idea in principle and I also approve of it. But in practice it has a lot of downfalls, mainly, it becomes very predictable and stale very quickly, 2nd it fucks over the race with the fewest options. If all races had the option to either macro or put on aggression nearly equally well and had a variety of ways of doing both, then it would be fantastic, unfortunately that's not how the game works right now. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12027 Posts
On December 22 2013 00:09 TheDwf wrote: Why can't you see that not being able to wall in PvZ and TvZ with less than 8 buildings is a huge problem? Speedlings are not magically wiped off the map because the playground is different... And just because a map has distinctive features doesn't mean they're good, interesting or fair (e. g. Alterzim has quite unique traits, yet it's bad and coinflippy). I have played enough team games on maps with very vulnerable naturals to know what it means. Well build your CC in your base and then move out to take your natural when you have the units to defend it. Early attacks should be able to do damage against greedy builds. Just like 11/11 should be very good against a hatch first on the map. | ||
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sparklyresidue
United States5523 Posts
On December 22 2013 00:03 MtlGuitarist97 wrote: There are no other styles for Terran to do in TvZ/TvP, and the Zerg/Protoss have all the options. Why is it fair that they get to choose how the game plays out but we don't? ask blizz for a bio nerf and something else buff | ||
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Uvantak
Uruguay1381 Posts
On December 22 2013 00:43 TheDwf wrote: That's exactly the point—if one side can still play its standard while the other side(s) cannot, this will lead to problems. Exactly, and that's why the non economic player would go for aggression and punish the more greedy player, this map has a quite short rush distance making aggression openings more viable than let's say... Whirlwind or Polar Night, i don't see has a bad thing that terran can't 15cc every game on this map a bad thing per se. Also fast 3rd base for Z on the current meta exists because the rush distances are long, on this map it would be madness for the zerg to do a fast third vs a terran that can't take his natural without making a small push and any kind of bio push would shred a 3 base Zerg that early on the game. You guys can't place the current meta on these maps because those maps are not design to accept the current meta when played, they are design to shake the meta. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On December 22 2013 01:11 Uvantak wrote: Exactly, and that's why the non economic player would go for aggression and punish the more greedy player, this map has a quite short rush distance making aggression openings more viable than let's say... Whirlwind or Polar Night, i don't see has a bad thing that terran can't 15cc every game on this map a bad thing per se. Also fast 3rd base for Z on the current meta exists because the rush distances are long, on this map it would be madness for the zerg to do a fast third vs a terran that can't take his natural without making a small push and any kind of bio push would shred a 3 base Zerg that early on the game. You guys can't place the current meta on these maps because those maps are not design to accept the current meta when played, they are design to shake the meta. You can't reaper expand too. You have to fast hellion if you want an expand at all. + Hellions are shit to counter fast 3 hatch, long distance or not. Anyway, it will be the ZvZ map since almost all terrans and protoss will veto it. | ||
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Snusmumriken
Sweden1717 Posts
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