It's gone... The falling snow on this map has been removed and this change has been made in all regions.
We made this change because of issues with the clarity of the playing field for both players and spectators, especially in regards to how it looked for eSports broadcasts.
Season 1 of 2014 Ladder competition is less than two weeks away, and with it, we’re adding a number of new maps to the 1v1 and 2v2 map pools. We’ve already published the new maps below to the Custom Games list, so after you’ve given them a quick look here, be sure to log in and get a few practice games on each before the season rolls at Friday, Jan 03 12:01am GMT (GMT+00:00) for EU / Friday, Jan 03 8:01am GMT (GMT+00:00) for AM. Before we check out the new maps, David Kim had a few words to share on our current goals with ladder map pools as we head in to the new year:
Current Goals for the 2014 Ladder
We heard your feedback on Alterzim, but we really want to push for map diversity and our data at the highest level of ladder play shows no significant matchup balance concerns. We’re going to try Alterzim in the next WCS season, but because the feedback surrounding this map is important too, we’ll be extra careful in making sure the map works well and take extreme measures if a clear problem develops on this map at the pro level. Thanks for your feedback; it’s great to hear your feelings about Alterzim. Please keep sharing your thoughts with us throughout the next season, and we’ll watch together to see how it turns out. Here are a few of our goals for the ladder pool as we move in to 2014:
We’re still looking to align the WCS map pool with the 1v1 ladder map pool.
Ever since we heard your feedback in this area and executed on it, this has been a very positive experience and we’d like to continue to align the WCS pool with the ladder.
The 1v1 map pool will still feature seven maps with three or four rotated out per season.
We strongly believe map diversity in tournaments keeps the game fresh and continues to give pro players more to explore, so we’ll be pushing this area pretty hard.
We’ve heard some mixed feedback in this area and we’re also aware of our community members who might think rotating out so many maps per season might be too much, but we’ll check how the next season’s map pool goes and tweak this area if needed.
Two of our three team map pools will be changed every season, and each team map pool will still consist of eight maps per season.
We definitely heard your feedback and agree we could do more on the team maps side.
In subsequent seasons, we’ll be going with at least two new maps in two of the three team formats per season.
Because Season 1 will feature two new 2v2 maps, Season 2 of next year will be something like two 3v3 maps and two 4v4 maps, Season 3 will be two new 2v2s and two new 3v3s, and so on.
Please keep in mind that none of this is completely set in stone and that these are just our current plans. We’re sure that some of you will have feedback in this area as well and we’re very much open to suggestions that will positively impact our plans going forward. Now that you’ve got a closer look at our vision for the map pool, let’s take a look at the additions for Season 1.
The 1v1 Map Pool
We're adding three new maps to the 1v1 pool in Season 1, and as always, making additions to the ladder pool means we’ll be removing a few of last season’s maps. Ladder Season 1 will once again feature seven 1v1 maps in total. Here are the maps we’ll be removing, followed by the new additions
1v1 Removals Bel’Shir Vestige LE Star Station TE Derelict Watcher
We also watched all of the Red Bull games, coordinated with Team Liquid, and realized this was the clear best map among those in the map contest. The way the high yield expansion plays in this map is very unique and different.
Now that we’ve unveiled the new maps you’ll be playing on this season, we’re pleased to show you the complete 1v1 map pool for Ladder Season 1 and 2014 WCS Season 1:
We heard your feedback on Alterzim, but we really want to push for map diversity and our data at the highest level of ladder play shows no significant matchup balance concerns. We’re going to try Alterzim in the next WCS season, but because the feedback surrounding this map is important too, we’ll be extra careful in making sure the map works well and take extreme measures if a clear problem develops on this map at the pro level.
We also watched all of the Red Bull games, coordinated with Team Liquid, and realized this was the clear best map among those in the map contest. The way the high yield expansion plays in this map is very unique and different.
In addition to the changes being made to the 1v1 map pool, we’re also making changes to the 2v2 map pool. Below, you’ll find the list of removals, along with a description of each map that we’re adding.
On Avalanche, your team will start in a fortress that flows into another expansion area that’s easy to defend. There are four expansion locations available in these two safe spots, and we expect more buildup and macro type of gameplay on this map. The remaining expansions in the top left and bottom right corners of the map should also be easier to defend than most other 2v2 maps we have. We expect lots of mid to late game play on Avalanche and feel it will be fairly straight forward to work together with your ally on this map.
Due to the very close rush distance between mains, and the destructible rocks that protect mid-map expansions, we’re expecting a lot of early game action on Crooked Maw. However, because the primary ramp leading into the main base is fairly narrow for a 2v2 map, it’ll also be possible to play a more defensive playstyle as well. We’re hoping to encourage early aggression and fast gameplay experiences but not necessarily short matches.
Complete 2v2 Map Pool for 2014 Season 1 Avalanche Crooked Maw Geosync Quarry Graystone Ravine Isle of Slaughter Reclamation Resupply Tanker Hunting Ground
All five of the new maps have already been published to the custom games list in order to give you a chance to check them out before the season roll. Feel free to fire up a few games on the new maps and let us know what you think in the comment section below. Once Season 1 begins at Friday, Jan 03 12:01am GMT (GMT+00:00) for EU / Friday, Jan 03 8:01am GMT (GMT+00:00) for AM each of these maps will appear in matchmaking queues for competitive play.
Good luck and have fun on the 2014 Season 1 ladder!
I am skeptic towards Daedalus. The main+ second and third looks really boring. Habitation looks interesting. Heavy rain looks interesting but I am skeptic. Something feels off about it... Maybe its something new and innovating that will revolutionize map making forever!
Edit: Tried out Daedulus Point, are Blizzard trolling us? Distance between the ramp and the natural main building is extremely long, then the natural area is almost as big as the main area, and at the end of it there's like a 4 force field wide ramp or something. It's worse than Antiga Shipyard and Metalopolis.
Basically you can't do anything other than 10/12/13 pools with early speed all ins in ZvZ. Queens blocking ramp are sooo far away from the hatchery, and it's impossible to wall off anything. Easiest map veto I've done in HotS. About to look at the other map now.
Heavy Rain looks fun. Since I'm not a terran player I'm not sure but Heavy Rain and Daedalus Point looks somewhat good for terran and they need a bit of a boost, if not in balance I guess maps can do alot. But again I do not know what I'm talking about.
On December 21 2013 08:59 Zheryn wrote: Woahh gotta go online and check them out!
Edit: Tried out Daedulus Point, are Blizzard trolling us? Distance between the ramp and the natural main building is extremely long, then the natural area is almost as big as the main area, and at the end of it there's like a 4 force field wide ramp or something. It's worse than Antiga Shipyard and Metalopolis.
Basically you can't do anything other than 10/12/13 pools with early speed all ins in ZvZ. Queens blocking ramp are sooo far away from the hatchery, and it's impossible to wall off anything. Easiest map veto I've done in HotS. About to look at the other map now.
Or maybe you can come up with a strategy which involves an early pool and isn't all in.
Maybe it's good that maps force different strategies so every game plays out differently.
Well, at least they didn't butcher Habitation Station so that makes me happy lol. I see they removed all the single LoSBs I had around the map. It's nice that they took out the LoSB at the natural and made that spot a little bigger because otherwise it could be bunker rushed.
Also appears they took out some doodads, /cry. Although that's probably for the best because it does have a ton of them in the map. It'll help out the players with not as good of PCs.
Just so glad they didn't add a bunch of rocks and change up a ton of stuff.
Daedalus looks fairly standard, huuuge ramp into the natural and it seems very open, zergs gonna love that.
After trying out both maps I don't even understand why Blizzard keeps trying to make their own maps. The Blizzard map is an absolute joke (could just as well be a map taken from WoL beta), but the GSL map is very well done. It has a perfect distance main to natural, so overlords will just be able to spot 10p lings coming out. The distance between ramp and natural is perfect, defendable but not as easy on like Frost. The natural itself has a perfect width, possible to wall off with 3 of 3x3 buildings + a unit (like on Bel'shir), with a standard distance to the natural building.
The rest of the map feels a bit like a 2 player version of Red City, but not as choked up. Both thirds are quite open, almost a little bit too open. You certainly won't go 3 nexus of 1gate on this map. Rocks and collapsable rocks makes it possible to have the entire middle section walled off quite early, but protoss might still feel like it's hard to secure a third base. Personally I prefer to watch games on maps where there aren't 3 very safe bases tho, so I think it'll be nice. I think this might be quite a good zerg map so I'll not downvote this one!
I think Heavy Rain is even worse for TvP, in regards to the 2 base blink all in, than star station. That's a pretty impressive feat. Also the size of the main, definitely gonna be a popular map for the in-base 10/10. Think I'm gonna ignore it even exists.
Habitation station looks kinda fun. Not so sure about Daedalus... I'll have to play some matchups on it.
Edit: Wow, Alterzim is still in... thought for sure they'd pull it.
with heavy rain the next blink stalker map enters the pool. I´m really sick of those maps, where you have big mains, that can be entered by blink stalkers at every point. -_-
On December 21 2013 10:48 TeeTS wrote: with heavy rain the next blink stalker map enters the pool. I´m really sick of those maps, where you have big mains, that can be entered by blink stalkers at every point. -_-
it would be cool if we could veto maps based on the matchup. like 3 different sets of vetoes or something like that. Its annoying to have to veto maps because of 1 build in 1 matchup...
On December 21 2013 10:48 TeeTS wrote: with heavy rain the next blink stalker map enters the pool. I´m really sick of those maps, where you have big mains, that can be entered by blink stalkers at every point. -_-
it would be cool if we could veto maps based on the matchup. like 3 different sets of vetoes or something like that. Its annoying to have to veto maps because of 1 build in 1 matchup...
I'm liking the wide-openness that Daedalus has. It should be fun (as a zerg player). In addition, the design looks AWESOME!
Heavy Rain looks like Insideous from TLMC (which was one of my favorite entries, despite it getting dead last). I like how there is a fastish path to get from main to main, but is extremely chokey and shouldn't ever be used after early game. The circularity could be cool.
I'm definitely sick of belshir. I quite wish they would remove Alterzhim already, it just isn't fun to me.
On December 21 2013 10:45 NovemberstOrm wrote: The natural ramp on Daedalus is huge, also the 3rd is wide open with three potential attack paths.
Yeah, but the rush distance is shorter so more aggressive openings are more viable than in other more macro oriented maps.
I'm quite happy about the new maps, it shows how blizzard is changing his policy with new maps, and that can only be a good thing ^^ the only map i'm concerned about is Heavy Rain, the main bases are quite exposed to blink stalkers and the overall flow of the map is quite "broken" if you wish, but that's how i see it, koreans really like their circle syndrome.
Very mixed feelings about both Heavy Rain and Habitation Station. Daedalus Point is pretty bad. I don't like anything that is that unfriendly towards wall-offs for ANY of the races. Plus, it's size is so small that aggressive play-styles are basically forced. I like having options, ya know?
I don't particularly like golds in the game, and I don't love the layout of Habitation. I feel like positions are too close, especially by air. None of the bottom parts of the map will really be used and there's a random high-ground area with no expansion in the bottom-center of the map? The watch tower is also sort of stupid here.
As for Heavy Rain, it seems way too congested, at least for a Zerg or Terran. Protoss probably like that, I dunno. Maybe if they got rid of those destructible rocks, because that center path looks rather annoying. There really isn't enough open space for my tastes. Did I mention blink stalkers? Because those aren't cool. (Now, if they would nerf the mothership core a bit, maybe make it a bit slower and make its spells require more energy......)
Preference of maps in order: Yeonsu || Polar Night || Frost || Habitation Station || Alterzim || Heavy Rain || Daedalus.
Daedalus would be a decent map if the natural's ramp was about 2/3 as wide, was closer to the hatchery, but the hatchery still be out of siege-tank range from low-ground. The third is tucked a bit too close to the natural and the fourth. I'd like to see those distributed a bit more, maybe by just making the map a bit taller (Y axis).
As for what they removed, the three maps they removed were all in my top 5 maps of last season... (I wouldn't pick any of the new maps over any of the ones they removed)
Glad of the removed maps. Got all this maps vetoed at the moment. Especially Derelict thank god. Finally some free vetoes. Bel Shir was somehow ok but I lost some games that I shouldnt have lost there cause of the layout. But man Daedalus looks really short. Must be the rush map they were talking of. Habitation looks good , thrilled to see how it turns out. Heavy Rain looks nice too, finally a map again that dont got every expansion on the outside and got expos on the inside/middle of the map, so you can expand towards the enemy with Mech. Im fed up with maps that have expos on the outlines. But Im afraid it could be like Star Station : too good for blink all-ins. For team maps: Avalanche looks like Steppes of War for 2v2. Veeery short. And Holy Moly 6 (!) gold expos on Crooked Maw. Thats crazy.
Always shared bases for the 2v2 maps... im tired of this maps for noobs, please only 1 map where u and ur ally need to leave the base before 15min blizzard...thx.... T_T
I am tentatively looking forward to next season's maps. I think Heavy rain looks the most interesting, but for the most part it's the same old maps that blizz has being using. Nothing KESPA revolutionary
Judging these maps before playing them is impossible. I hope all three of them are good, or we're looking at a map pool with Polar Night as the only decent map. That's a...horrifying possibility.
Seriously Blizzard ? and TL community ? those are terrible map.
Map protoss can proxy everywhere, almost impossible to scout. Big cliff b1 so blink is almost impossible to defend...
And you keep Alterzim really ? i dont understand, honnestly, im a low master and i'm no one in this game, but i NEVER seen any player that like this map. The first time i saw it, i knew this will be never played in any tournament, veto by everyone. And guess what ? no one wants to play on it.
How can someone ilke me see it at first look and blizzard dont saw it ?
''We’re still looking to align the WCS map pool with the 1v1 ladder map pool. Ever since we heard your feedback in this area and executed on it, this has been a very positive experience and we’d like to continue to align the WCS pool with the ladder. The 1v1 map pool will still feature seven maps with three or four rotated out per season. We strongly believe map diversity in tournaments keeps the game fresh and continues to give pro players more to explore, so we’ll be pushing this area pretty hard.''
Heard some random caster the other day say he was excited because alterzim was being played. He basically said it was freakin cool because this map is vetoed 99.9% of the time by one of the players.
I'm a meching player and I like Alterzim. It is one of my favorite maps because I feel very safe to open CC first and taking and protecting my third is relatively easy to get my 5th and 6th gas. As I transition to Sky Terran over the game, the long distance to my opponents side is not as much of an issue if I was relying on just Thors and Tanks and Hellbats.
Dzerhinsky, also a meching player, seems to win 90% on that map.
The maps I dislike the most are the ones with easy blink stalkers (like Star Station), but I am improving on defending them, since on those maps, the blink all ins are so common, so while Heavy Rain is a concern, at least I get to practice my Blink defense.
All the crying about these maps without even playing them is hilarious. "Oh this map makes me play differently then I always do this sucks, just guna forget it even exists." I mean cmon it takes at least 20+ games on a map to get the feel for how it plays out, what's good on the map, and what you can do differently to compensate. If blink all-in will just happen every game, you should win 100% of the time because you will know it's coming before the game even starts? Just prepare a build that deals specifically with that situation? It's called problem-solving and critical thinking, something this game is supposed to force people to do!!
thank god for derelict.that was such a disgusting tvz map. now it's time u remove that alterzim joke or atleast make it 50% smaller, it's pathetic how big it is.
On December 21 2013 13:15 ArTiFaKs wrote: All the crying about these maps without even playing them is hilarious. "Oh this map makes me play differently then I always do this sucks, just guna forget it even exists." I mean cmon it takes at least 20+ games on a map to get the feel for how it plays out, what's good on the map, and what you can do differently to compensate. If blink all-in will just happen every game, you should win 100% of the time because you will know it's coming before the game even starts? Just prepare a build that deals specifically with that situation? It's called problem-solving and critical thinking, something this game is supposed to force people to do!!
Blizzard is actually just really bad at map-making and picking maps for a pool, for that matter. Instead of making a map where you have tons of options, they make these terrible maps which will OBVIOUSLY be abused by something. You don't even need to play on some of these maps to know certain things are going to be stupid on them. The ramp on Daedalus makes walling off (as Toss in particular) a huge pain in the ass. You know those lame-ass speedling all-ins that Zergs would do, sans-baneling? Well now it's guaranteed to do damage. I imagine Protoss will ignore walling off the whole ramp and just start a wall-off from their nexus to the beginning of the ramp, since they wouldn't be able to complete a wall-off until forever. But, the map is small, so aggressive plays are FORCED, due to all of these factors. I know Blizzard wants people to come up with new ideas, but these new ideas are only good because the map is so bad. Everyone is going to veto Daedalus because it's bad. No tournament organizer would be stupid enough to include it in their pool, either. So they might as well just add an actually good map.
What's actually hilarious is how you can't recognize a bad map by just looking at it.
And I agree with above (2) poster, Habitation Station looks like total shit. I would have much preferred if was a grassy map, to replace Bel'shir.
Zerg players, I wish you a lot of fun playing ZvZ on Daedalus. I think everyone else will veto it. That's literally impossible to wall off as protoss, I don't think I've ever seem such a no-brainer veto in my entire life.
People always ask for variety but when a map is in favor of one or the other races people dislike it, if map balance was the same for every map then that would create boring games which would be the same types of games over and over again, map disadvantages can create interesting situations, give the maps a chance and if they fail then they will be replaced.
The main problems I have with Heavy Rain and Deadalus Point is the huge area to defend Blink Allins. Closed off maps as Heavy Rain wheres theres a lot of things in the middle to block movement never seems to be a good idea if you want to have a good map.
Habitation Station as a addition is a great, we might start to see more games thats "different". (ofc we wont but lets be optimistic!)
And this new rule to always add on two new maps how about actually adding on NEW maps and not maps that look like every other map with the same shit added to them?
On December 21 2013 13:15 ArTiFaKs wrote: All the crying about these maps without even playing them is hilarious. "Oh this map makes me play differently then I always do this sucks, just guna forget it even exists."
You know that's EXACTLY how the pros feel about the maps too ? :<
Is it that hard for protoss to start with zealots defending their nexus expand? Why Protoss doing only FFE with walloffs? Zealots will be unable to kill anything if there will be zealots + nexus cannon nearby
Plus, make more building "attached" to nexus, so less zerglings can attack Nexus at time
I'm all for a wide variety of map styles. Smaller more rushy ones, gold minerals, I don't care. Anything for variety. Maps are so freaking boring nowadays. Haven't looked at the maps though, so if they're all very blink stalker friendly then this isn't good!
Ugh, disgusting, instead of choosing Neo Polaris Rhapsody, which had the most new and potentially awesome and untried feature, they go with the safe option.
Worst still the other maps look, ugh... I'm getting real tired of having to worry about blink all-ins on every single map, not even sure what to veto at this point, although.
Belshir?! Derelict watcher?!! Star station?!!!!!! Great, now im out of maps to play, fuck my poor little zerg life Good job keeping alterzim in there, everybody I know personally who plays sc2 absolutely hates it. But i guess its a blizzard map, so they dont want to remove it T.T Glad they kept polar night, atleast something... BTW habitation station is being removed after that season for 100% Can´t see it being a tournament map for a longer peroid of time, anyhow.
Nice that Delecrit and Star Station are out. But sad about Belshir, we need more green maps!
Daedalus looks like a normal Blizzard map, insta veto. Habitation Station looks good, looking forward to play some macro on it. Heavy Rain...i kinda like it after i look at the image, hopefully that will transition into the game. Hope its as big as Frost
Overall i am happy with the maps. My vetos will go to Polar Night and Daedalus.
It's always hard to tell from the portraits but is Daedulus Point really small? It looks like Stepps of War 2.0 with a huge open killzone in the middle.
Map are more and more blink allin friendly. My gosh... Daedalus is great to defend off 1 base, but if it is 2 bases blink allin and you have to keep your nat, it is instant lose. Habitation Station seems OK, if only he can't blink from the gold into your main, I need to look at that. Heavy Rain is the new starstation considering blink. I miss already so much Belshir. :'(
Finally Derelict gone, looks like the veto spot is going to Daedalus though, that natural will be hard to wall off against Zerg given the base distance. I dunno though, I'll probably give it a whirl first to see if I'm right or if one base is possible. This is one map I'd feel confident in PvT and playing aggressively in.
On December 21 2013 16:55 Existor wrote: Is it that hard for protoss to start with zealots defending their nexus expand? Why Protoss doing only FFE with walloffs? Zealots will be unable to kill anything if there will be zealots + nexus cannon nearby
Plus, make more building "attached" to nexus, so less zerglings can attack Nexus at time
Hint : a zealot is slow and is a melee unit too. You can kite/avoid it pretty much forever early game. MSC has a crappy DPS on its own and you can't nexus cannon if you can't have the nexus finish in the first place (not to mention when you do have the energy to cast it, expand is already late I guess so it was effectively delayed). There is no way to take a fast nexus on Deadalus versus Zerg. Zerg makes 8-10 zerglings and wait below B1 ramp. Behind Zerg just expands/drones a ton and voila it delayed Protoss expand pretty much effortlessly.
Also ZvZ must be "fun" on this map.
I don't have much of an opinion yet on the other 2 (maybe Habitation & Deadalus look pretty bad for a reaper opening?), but Deadalus does look very grim for anything that involves Zerg.
I'm glad that I stopped laddering. This map pool looks like garbage.
Daedalus and Heavy Rain both look awful for TvP. The third seems really easy for the Protoss to defend on Daedalus and Heavy Rain has the main being gigantic. Habitation Station is so small and badly designed that it seems like the games on it will be weird and Terran favored just because there's literally no distance between the mains. I haven't played on it but it seems like there's no way that it forces you to move to the lower side of the map and Terrans will just push through the upper half throughout the entire game against Zerg. Against Protoss, the gold third will be pretty vulnerable for both races, but the other third should be relatively safe. I'd imagine scouting for proxies will be a bit of a pain in the ass on this map.
Overall, I really don't like these maps as a Terran. They seem decent for the other matchups, but I just don't think that they're very good. They're all very boring and force a certain style of play that I don't enjoy watching. As bad as the maps in 2011-2012 may have been, at least the games on them were interesting. These maps make me miss Antiga, Shakuras, Daybreak, TDA, Whirlwind, Cloud Kingdom, and Ohana. Even if they weren't the most balanced maps in history (and many of them were), these new maps all play out very similarly and don't force the players to jockey for position in the middle of the map or to take a different attack path to avoid being scouted.
On December 21 2013 19:31 PVJ wrote: I didn't get a chance to see habitation station in action, why is the high yielding so unique?
Make Tempests. Watch the other player unable to mine its gold properly while you can. Laugh at how hilarious the situation is. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AtNAEJzYFw)
Daedalus Point is going to be a shit map for PvZ. enjoy the enourmous ramp on the natural + a wide open map with loads of easy defendable bases and narrow warp prism/medivac drop space! great blizz ty!
Decided to try out Daedalus against the AI. That ramp is enormous, walling that off in time for early pool rushes is pretty much impossible. There's Derelict's veto replacement done.
In a way its bad that Blizzard is able to enforce the entire ladder pool on to all its partners. At least in the past we had GSL that ran some ladder maps but still promoted 3-4 of its own maps, the map pool was richer for it and it was always getting updated with quality maps constantly.
Now its the other way around, Blizzard is polluting all the tournaments with bad maps.
What kind of bad joke is this... Back to Reactor Hellion expands in TvZ?
This new map pool looks awful. They even managed to create a map with even more Blink surface than Star Station—hats off!
Dwf, for someone who apparently knows so much about the game it seems you're very often happy for the map pool to be the same map with 5 different textures. Having different maps which favour different builds is a lot better for the game in general. I stopped watching SC2 entirely now because every game plays out the same as no maps favour different styles. It's good that these maps can't be played in exactly the same way every other map can. Why can't you see that?
What kind of bad joke is this... Back to Reactor Hellion expands in TvZ?
This new map pool looks awful. They even managed to create a map with even more Blink surface than Star Station—hats off!
Dwf, for someone who apparently knows so much about the game it seems you're very often happy for the map pool to be the same map with 5 different textures. Having different maps which favour different builds is a lot better for the game in general. I stopped watching SC2 entirely now because every game plays out the same as no maps favour different styles. It's good that these maps can't be played in exactly the same way every other map can. Why can't you see that?
There are no other styles for Terran to do in TvZ/TvP, and the Zerg/Protoss have all the options. Why is it fair that they get to choose how the game plays out but we don't?
What kind of bad joke is this... Back to Reactor Hellion expands in TvZ?
This new map pool looks awful. They even managed to create a map with even more Blink surface than Star Station—hats off!
Dwf, for someone who apparently knows so much about the game it seems you're very often happy for the map pool to be the same map with 5 different textures. Having different maps which favour different builds is a lot better for the game in general. I stopped watching SC2 entirely now because every game plays out the same as no maps favour different styles. It's good that these maps can't be played in exactly the same way every other map can. Why can't you see that?
Why can't you see that not being able to wall in PvZ and TvZ with less than 8 buildings is a huge problem? Speedlings are not magically wiped off the map because the playground is different... And just because a map has distinctive features doesn't mean they're good, interesting or fair (e. g. Alterzim has quite unique traits, yet it's bad and coinflippy). I have played enough team games on maps with very vulnerable naturals to know what it means.
What kind of bad joke is this... Back to Reactor Hellion expands in TvZ?
This new map pool looks awful. They even managed to create a map with even more Blink surface than Star Station—hats off!
Dwf, for someone who apparently knows so much about the game it seems you're very often happy for the map pool to be the same map with 5 different textures. Having different maps which favour different builds is a lot better for the game in general. I stopped watching SC2 entirely now because every game plays out the same as no maps favour different styles. It's good that these maps can't be played in exactly the same way every other map can. Why can't you see that?
There are no other styles for Terran to do in TvZ/TvP, and the Zerg/Protoss have all the options. Why is it fair that they get to choose how the game plays out but we don't?
glad we have habitation station then, where the standard for terran is pretty bad. Either way most Terrans prefer to stick to one style since they don't have to vary it for the matchups. That way they can achieve superior micro, because every game will train you for all matchups atleast to some degree. So they are happy if there are only maps, that doesn't block this one style of play. Just have to hope that the maps won't be put aside, because Terran Pros will get ran over for a few month. And maybe then there is no need to balance Terran around Korean Terran anymore .
On December 21 2013 12:19 mrRoflpwn wrote: Holy shit all the 1v1 maps look so similar its pathetic. Easy 3 bases in a triangle setup. Why cant we have that lava map to spice things up.
Because if you add that map all the non hardcore player base will whine.
This thread is giving me a headache, 50% of the posters whine about the new maps being imba and that you can't wall off on daedalus or that there's a tempest build that could be problematic on Habitation station without thinking once on the metagame that could develop from that, meanwhile to other 50% thinks that the map pool looks good and that variety is good for the game, but at the same time ~70% of the votes on the pools about the maps go to Approve....
This only further makes me think that you guys (that 50% that are whining) don't actually want to play on the weird/interesting maps, you just want to be able to wall-FE every single game and then whine about how the game is stale, while seeing how the pros play on funky maps.
On December 22 2013 00:21 Uvantak wrote: This only further makes me think that you guys (that 50% that are whining) don't actually want to play on the weird/interesting maps, you just want to be able to wall-FE every single game and then whine about how the game is stale, while seeing how the pros play on funky maps.
There is nothing interesting about a map that encourages Zerg to just go early pool rush everything, which is basically what they are going to do on Daedalus. >_>
On December 22 2013 00:21 Uvantak wrote: This only further makes me think that you guys (that 50% that are whining) don't actually want to play on the weird/interesting maps, you just want to be able to wall-FE every single game and then whine about how the game is stale, while seeing how the pros play on funky maps.
There is nothing interesting about a map that encourages Zerg to just go early pool rush everything, which is basically what they are going to do on Daedalus. >_>
There's nothing interesting with a map that encourages Zerg go 3 hatch every game either, for this map you don't need to go early pool, you can go 15 hatch with ease too, also the main's ramp on Daedalus is a 1x one, so there shouldn't be much problems with bane bust and stuff like that (unlike like it would happen if the map had a bigger ramp).
On December 22 2013 00:21 Uvantak wrote: This only further makes me think that you guys (that 50% that are whining) don't actually want to play on the weird/interesting maps, you just want to be able to wall-FE every single game and then whine about how the game is stale, while seeing how the pros play on funky maps.
There is nothing interesting about a map that encourages Zerg to just go early pool rush everything, which is basically what they are going to do on Daedalus. >_>
There's nothing interesting with a map that encourages Zerg go 3 hatch every game either, for this map you don't need to go early pool, you can go 15 hatch with ease too, also the main's ramp on Daedalus is a 1x one, so there shouldn't be much problems with bane bust and stuff like that (unlike like it would happen if the map had a bigger ramp).
That's exactly the point—if one side can still play its standard while the other side(s) cannot, this will lead to problems.
On December 22 2013 00:21 Uvantak wrote: This only further makes me think that you guys (that 50% that are whining) don't actually want to play on the weird/interesting maps, you just want to be able to wall-FE every single game and then whine about how the game is stale, while seeing how the pros play on funky maps.
There is nothing interesting about a map that encourages Zerg to just go early pool rush everything, which is basically what they are going to do on Daedalus. >_>
There's nothing interesting with a map that encourages Zerg go 3 hatch every game either, for this map you don't need to go early pool, you can go 15 hatch with ease too, also the main's ramp on Daedalus is a 1x one, so there shouldn't be much problems with bane bust and stuff like that (unlike like it would happen if the map had a bigger ramp).
That's exactly the point—if one side can still play its standard while the other side(s) cannot, this will lead to problems.
I don't think there's a problem if different maps force different races into doing certain things. Like, I think it's fine if Terran has to open reactor hellion on one map, as long as Zerg is forced to open a certain way on another map. I do agree, however, that if one race is constantly forced into doing the same things, regardless of map, it's a problem.
On December 22 2013 00:21 Uvantak wrote: This only further makes me think that you guys (that 50% that are whining) don't actually want to play on the weird/interesting maps, you just want to be able to wall-FE every single game and then whine about how the game is stale, while seeing how the pros play on funky maps.
There is nothing interesting about a map that encourages Zerg to just go early pool rush everything, which is basically what they are going to do on Daedalus. >_>
There's nothing interesting with a map that encourages Zerg go 3 hatch every game either, for this map you don't need to go early pool, you can go 15 hatch with ease too, also the main's ramp on Daedalus is a 1x one, so there shouldn't be much problems with bane bust and stuff like that (unlike like it would happen if the map had a bigger ramp).
That's exactly the point—if one side can still play its standard while the other side(s) cannot, this will lead to problems.
I don't think there's a problem if different maps force different races into doing certain things. Like, I think it's fine if Terran has to open reactor hellion on one map, as long as Zerg is forced to open a certain way on another map. I do agree, however, that if one race is constantly forced into doing the same things, regardless of map, it's a problem.
Terran will be forced to do reactor hellion opening, which is instant lose in the current meta in TvZ where the Z got fast 3rd. There was a reason ppl didn't go hellion expand at the end of wol.
On December 22 2013 00:21 Uvantak wrote: This only further makes me think that you guys (that 50% that are whining) don't actually want to play on the weird/interesting maps, you just want to be able to wall-FE every single game and then whine about how the game is stale, while seeing how the pros play on funky maps.
There is nothing interesting about a map that encourages Zerg to just go early pool rush everything, which is basically what they are going to do on Daedalus. >_>
There's nothing interesting with a map that encourages Zerg go 3 hatch every game either, for this map you don't need to go early pool, you can go 15 hatch with ease too, also the main's ramp on Daedalus is a 1x one, so there shouldn't be much problems with bane bust and stuff like that (unlike like it would happen if the map had a bigger ramp).
That's exactly the point—if one side can still play its standard while the other side(s) cannot, this will lead to problems.
I don't think there's a problem if different maps force different races into doing certain things. Like, I think it's fine if Terran has to open reactor hellion on one map, as long as Zerg is forced to open a certain way on another map. I do agree, however, that if one race is constantly forced into doing the same things, regardless of map, it's a problem.
Terran will be forced to do reactor hellion opening, which is instant lose in the current meta in TvZ where the Z got fast 3rd. There was a reason ppl didn't go hellion expand at the end of wol.
I don't think you understand what I mean. Obviously, if no opening is viable for race X on map Y, then map Y should either not be in the map pool, or be changed. But as long as there is a viable opening (and more than one on most maps) for a race, I don't see a problem with one race being forced to play more aggressively or more defensively than another on specific maps. I'm not talking about any specific maps right this moment, I haven't watched or played enough to judge myself.
On December 22 2013 00:21 Uvantak wrote: This only further makes me think that you guys (that 50% that are whining) don't actually want to play on the weird/interesting maps, you just want to be able to wall-FE every single game and then whine about how the game is stale, while seeing how the pros play on funky maps.
There is nothing interesting about a map that encourages Zerg to just go early pool rush everything, which is basically what they are going to do on Daedalus. >_>
There's nothing interesting with a map that encourages Zerg go 3 hatch every game either, for this map you don't need to go early pool, you can go 15 hatch with ease too, also the main's ramp on Daedalus is a 1x one, so there shouldn't be much problems with bane bust and stuff like that (unlike like it would happen if the map had a bigger ramp).
That's exactly the point—if one side can still play its standard while the other side(s) cannot, this will lead to problems.
I don't think there's a problem if different maps force different races into doing certain things. Like, I think it's fine if Terran has to open reactor hellion on one map, as long as Zerg is forced to open a certain way on another map. I do agree, however, that if one race is constantly forced into doing the same things, regardless of map, it's a problem.
Terran will be forced to do reactor hellion opening, which is instant lose in the current meta in TvZ where the Z got fast 3rd. There was a reason ppl didn't go hellion expand at the end of wol.
I don't think you understand what I mean. Obviously, if no opening is viable for race X on map Y, then map Y should either not be in the map pool, or be changed. But as long as there is a viable opening (and more than one on most maps) for a race, I don't see a problem with one race being forced to play more aggressively or more defensively than another on specific maps. I'm not talking about any specific maps right this moment, I haven't watched or played enough to judge myself.
That's a fine idea in principle and I also approve of it. But in practice it has a lot of downfalls, mainly, it becomes very predictable and stale very quickly, 2nd it fucks over the race with the fewest options.
If all races had the option to either macro or put on aggression nearly equally well and had a variety of ways of doing both, then it would be fantastic, unfortunately that's not how the game works right now.
What kind of bad joke is this... Back to Reactor Hellion expands in TvZ?
This new map pool looks awful. They even managed to create a map with even more Blink surface than Star Station—hats off!
Dwf, for someone who apparently knows so much about the game it seems you're very often happy for the map pool to be the same map with 5 different textures. Having different maps which favour different builds is a lot better for the game in general. I stopped watching SC2 entirely now because every game plays out the same as no maps favour different styles. It's good that these maps can't be played in exactly the same way every other map can. Why can't you see that?
Why can't you see that not being able to wall in PvZ and TvZ with less than 8 buildings is a huge problem? Speedlings are not magically wiped off the map because the playground is different... And just because a map has distinctive features doesn't mean they're good, interesting or fair (e. g. Alterzim has quite unique traits, yet it's bad and coinflippy). I have played enough team games on maps with very vulnerable naturals to know what it means.
Well build your CC in your base and then move out to take your natural when you have the units to defend it.
Early attacks should be able to do damage against greedy builds. Just like 11/11 should be very good against a hatch first on the map.
What kind of bad joke is this... Back to Reactor Hellion expands in TvZ?
This new map pool looks awful. They even managed to create a map with even more Blink surface than Star Station—hats off!
Dwf, for someone who apparently knows so much about the game it seems you're very often happy for the map pool to be the same map with 5 different textures. Having different maps which favour different builds is a lot better for the game in general. I stopped watching SC2 entirely now because every game plays out the same as no maps favour different styles. It's good that these maps can't be played in exactly the same way every other map can. Why can't you see that?
There are no other styles for Terran to do in TvZ/TvP, and the Zerg/Protoss have all the options. Why is it fair that they get to choose how the game plays out but we don't?
On December 22 2013 00:21 Uvantak wrote: This only further makes me think that you guys (that 50% that are whining) don't actually want to play on the weird/interesting maps, you just want to be able to wall-FE every single game and then whine about how the game is stale, while seeing how the pros play on funky maps.
There is nothing interesting about a map that encourages Zerg to just go early pool rush everything, which is basically what they are going to do on Daedalus. >_>
There's nothing interesting with a map that encourages Zerg go 3 hatch every game either, for this map you don't need to go early pool, you can go 15 hatch with ease too, also the main's ramp on Daedalus is a 1x one, so there shouldn't be much problems with bane bust and stuff like that (unlike like it would happen if the map had a bigger ramp).
That's exactly the point—if one side can still play its standard while the other side(s) cannot, this will lead to problems.
Exactly, and that's why the non economic player would go for aggression and punish the more greedy player, this map has a quite short rush distance making aggression openings more viable than let's say... Whirlwind or Polar Night, i don't see has a bad thing that terran can't 15cc every game on this map a bad thing per se.
Also fast 3rd base for Z on the current meta exists because the rush distances are long, on this map it would be madness for the zerg to do a fast third vs a terran that can't take his natural without making a small push and any kind of bio push would shred a 3 base Zerg that early on the game.
You guys can't place the current meta on these maps because those maps are not design to accept the current meta when played, they are design to shake the meta.
On December 22 2013 00:21 Uvantak wrote: This only further makes me think that you guys (that 50% that are whining) don't actually want to play on the weird/interesting maps, you just want to be able to wall-FE every single game and then whine about how the game is stale, while seeing how the pros play on funky maps.
There is nothing interesting about a map that encourages Zerg to just go early pool rush everything, which is basically what they are going to do on Daedalus. >_>
There's nothing interesting with a map that encourages Zerg go 3 hatch every game either, for this map you don't need to go early pool, you can go 15 hatch with ease too, also the main's ramp on Daedalus is a 1x one, so there shouldn't be much problems with bane bust and stuff like that (unlike like it would happen if the map had a bigger ramp).
That's exactly the point—if one side can still play its standard while the other side(s) cannot, this will lead to problems.
Exactly, and that's why the non economic player would go for aggression and punish the more greedy player, this map has a quite short rush distance making aggression openings more viable than let's say... Whirlwind or Polar Night, i don't see has a bad thing that terran can't 15cc every game on this map a bad thing per se.
Also fast 3rd base for Z on the current meta exists because the rush distances are long, on this map it would be madness for the zerg to do a fast third vs a terran that can't take his natural without making a small push and any kind of bio push would shred a 3 base Zerg that early on the game.
You guys can't place the current meta on these maps because those maps are not design to accept the current meta when played, they are design to shake the meta.
You can't reaper expand too. You have to fast hellion if you want an expand at all. + Hellions are shit to counter fast 3 hatch, long distance or not.
Anyway, it will be the ZvZ map since almost all terrans and protoss will veto it.
What kind of bad joke is this... Back to Reactor Hellion expands in TvZ?
This new map pool looks awful. They even managed to create a map with even more Blink surface than Star Station—hats off!
Dwf, for someone who apparently knows so much about the game it seems you're very often happy for the map pool to be the same map with 5 different textures. Having different maps which favour different builds is a lot better for the game in general. I stopped watching SC2 entirely now because every game plays out the same as no maps favour different styles. It's good that these maps can't be played in exactly the same way every other map can. Why can't you see that?
Why can't you see that not being able to wall in PvZ and TvZ with less than 8 buildings is a huge problem?
I don't play at a high level so I don't really know if this is viable. It costs the same as a standard wall off but bunkers take 10 seconds longer to build than depots.
What kind of bad joke is this... Back to Reactor Hellion expands in TvZ?
This new map pool looks awful. They even managed to create a map with even more Blink surface than Star Station—hats off!
Dwf, for someone who apparently knows so much about the game it seems you're very often happy for the map pool to be the same map with 5 different textures. Having different maps which favour different builds is a lot better for the game in general. I stopped watching SC2 entirely now because every game plays out the same as no maps favour different styles. It's good that these maps can't be played in exactly the same way every other map can. Why can't you see that?
Why can't you see that not being able to wall in PvZ and TvZ with less than 8 buildings is a huge problem?
I don't play at a high level so I don't really know if this is viable. It costs the same as a standard wall off but bunkers take 10 seconds longer to build than depots.
No, that really isn't good, if the zerg sees you walling off like that he has a free pass to drone like a madman knowing very well that all the economy and the aggression of the terran has gone out the window.
What kind of bad joke is this... Back to Reactor Hellion expands in TvZ?
This new map pool looks awful. They even managed to create a map with even more Blink surface than Star Station—hats off!
Dwf, for someone who apparently knows so much about the game it seems you're very often happy for the map pool to be the same map with 5 different textures. Having different maps which favour different builds is a lot better for the game in general. I stopped watching SC2 entirely now because every game plays out the same as no maps favour different styles. It's good that these maps can't be played in exactly the same way every other map can. Why can't you see that?
Why can't you see that not being able to wall in PvZ and TvZ with less than 8 buildings is a huge problem?
I don't play at a high level so I don't really know if this is viable. It costs the same as a standard wall off but bunkers take 10 seconds longer to build than depots.
No, that really isn't good, if the zerg sees you walling off like that he has a free pass to drone like a madman knowing very well that all the economy and the aggression of the terran has gone out the window.
Call me a gold league scrub but doesn't the 6 depot/1 bunker wall off send exactly the same message?
What kind of bad joke is this... Back to Reactor Hellion expands in TvZ?
This new map pool looks awful. They even managed to create a map with even more Blink surface than Star Station—hats off!
Dwf, for someone who apparently knows so much about the game it seems you're very often happy for the map pool to be the same map with 5 different textures. Having different maps which favour different builds is a lot better for the game in general. I stopped watching SC2 entirely now because every game plays out the same as no maps favour different styles. It's good that these maps can't be played in exactly the same way every other map can. Why can't you see that?
Why can't you see that not being able to wall in PvZ and TvZ with less than 8 buildings is a huge problem?
I don't play at a high level so I don't really know if this is viable. It costs the same as a standard wall off but bunkers take 10 seconds longer to build than depots.
No, that really isn't good, if the zerg sees you walling off like that he has a free pass to drone like a madman knowing very well that all the economy and the aggression of the terran has gone out the window.
Call me a gold league scrub but doesn't the 6 depot/1 bunker wall off send exactly the same message?
Honestly i would drone after seeing that. I would still scout his main for a 3rd cc to truly determine if he going to be aggressive or not but 3 bunkers just send off that illusion of defensive/passive play. The reasoning behind this is that yes that wall off costs the same as the depo wall off BUT The terran still has to get those depos anyways for their units, which means overall they are still investing 200 minerals more into that wall off in their overall build instead of a standard depo wall.
What kind of bad joke is this... Back to Reactor Hellion expands in TvZ?
This new map pool looks awful. They even managed to create a map with even more Blink surface than Star Station—hats off!
Dwf, for someone who apparently knows so much about the game it seems you're very often happy for the map pool to be the same map with 5 different textures. Having different maps which favour different builds is a lot better for the game in general. I stopped watching SC2 entirely now because every game plays out the same as no maps favour different styles. It's good that these maps can't be played in exactly the same way every other map can. Why can't you see that?
Why can't you see that not being able to wall in PvZ and TvZ with less than 8 buildings is a huge problem?
I don't play at a high level so I don't really know if this is viable. It costs the same as a standard wall off but bunkers take 10 seconds longer to build than depots.
No, that really isn't good, if the zerg sees you walling off like that he has a free pass to drone like a madman knowing very well that all the economy and the aggression of the terran has gone out the window.
Call me a gold league scrub but doesn't the 6 depot/1 bunker wall off send exactly the same message?
Building a passive bunker is like building a depot that doesn't give supply.
What kind of bad joke is this... Back to Reactor Hellion expands in TvZ?
This new map pool looks awful. They even managed to create a map with even more Blink surface than Star Station—hats off!
Dwf, for someone who apparently knows so much about the game it seems you're very often happy for the map pool to be the same map with 5 different textures. Having different maps which favour different builds is a lot better for the game in general. I stopped watching SC2 entirely now because every game plays out the same as no maps favour different styles. It's good that these maps can't be played in exactly the same way every other map can. Why can't you see that?
Why can't you see that not being able to wall in PvZ and TvZ with less than 8 buildings is a huge problem?
I don't play at a high level so I don't really know if this is viable. It costs the same as a standard wall off but bunkers take 10 seconds longer to build than depots.
No, that really isn't good, if the zerg sees you walling off like that he has a free pass to drone like a madman knowing very well that all the economy and the aggression of the terran has gone out the window.
Call me a gold league scrub but doesn't the 6 depot/1 bunker wall off send exactly the same message?
Building a passive bunker is like building a depot that doesn't give supply.
On December 21 2013 19:31 PVJ wrote: I didn't get a chance to see habitation station in action, why is the high yielding so unique?
Make Tempests. Watch the other player unable to mine its gold properly while you can. Laugh at how hilarious the situation is. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AtNAEJzYFw)
Yes, Tempests are going to be so broken on this map. You can defend all 3 bases, one of which is a gold expansion with them while still being offensive and denying opponents gold.
There are not enough vetoes for all the CRAP maps. The ladder pool just gets worse and worse. *sigh Im so frustrated with the state of the game in general then they keep releasing utter garbage like alterzim.
it will kill the game for me if this trend continues. Things at blizzard have gone from bad to worse since activision took over.
On December 22 2013 02:35 verne wrote: There are not enough vetoes for all the CRAP maps. The ladder pool just gets worse and worse. *sigh Im so frustrated with the state of the game in general then they keep releasing utter garbage like alterzim.
it will kill the game for me if this trend continues. Things at blizzard have gone from bad to worse since activision took over.
Out of interest, in your opinion what is a good map?
What kind of bad joke is this... Back to Reactor Hellion expands in TvZ?
This new map pool looks awful. They even managed to create a map with even more Blink surface than Star Station—hats off!
Dwf, for someone who apparently knows so much about the game it seems you're very often happy for the map pool to be the same map with 5 different textures. Having different maps which favour different builds is a lot better for the game in general. I stopped watching SC2 entirely now because every game plays out the same as no maps favour different styles. It's good that these maps can't be played in exactly the same way every other map can. Why can't you see that?
Why can't you see that not being able to wall in PvZ and TvZ with less than 8 buildings is a huge problem?
(I removed the picture)
I don't play at a high level so I don't really know if this is viable. It costs the same as a standard wall off but bunkers take 10 seconds longer to build than depots.
I just tried some stuff and if you build your 3rd CC at the ramp you can wall off with: 1 bunker, 2 depots, 1 CC and 2 Ebays. It's still vulnerable to early speedlings, because with a standard build your ebays get added on quite late, so I don't know how it will work out in the end.
On December 22 2013 02:35 verne wrote: There are not enough vetoes for all the CRAP maps. The ladder pool just gets worse and worse. *sigh Im so frustrated with the state of the game in general then they keep releasing utter garbage like alterzim.
it will kill the game for me if this trend continues. Things at blizzard have gone from bad to worse since activision took over.
Out of interest, in your opinion what is a good map?
This is the question I'm always interested in hearing an answer to but I rarely get one. Unconventional maps are hated because they "don't work" for one reason or another, whereas standard maps are hated because they're either "stale" or because they "force me into playing a certain way".
On December 22 2013 02:35 verne wrote: There are not enough vetoes for all the CRAP maps. The ladder pool just gets worse and worse. *sigh Im so frustrated with the state of the game in general then they keep releasing utter garbage like alterzim.
it will kill the game for me if this trend continues. Things at blizzard have gone from bad to worse since activision took over.
Out of interest, in your opinion what is a good map?
This is the question I'm always interested in hearing an answer to but I rarely get one. Unconventional maps are hated because they "don't work" for one reason or another, whereas standard maps are hated because they're either "stale" or because they "force me into playing a certain way".
Sort of. Unconventional maps are hated when the emphasize hated ideas. If cool or neat ideas are used, people tend to love the unconventional map, even though it might not be feasible. Take the Redbull TLMC winner, which featured rising lava every five mins, as a good example. Such an idea is super radical and probably won't work, but it was loved by almost everyone.
On December 22 2013 02:35 verne wrote: There are not enough vetoes for all the CRAP maps. The ladder pool just gets worse and worse. *sigh Im so frustrated with the state of the game in general then they keep releasing utter garbage like alterzim.
it will kill the game for me if this trend continues. Things at blizzard have gone from bad to worse since activision took over.
Out of interest, in your opinion what is a good map?
This is the question I'm always interested in hearing an answer to but I rarely get one. Unconventional maps are hated because they "don't work" for one reason or another, whereas standard maps are hated because they're either "stale" or because they "force me into playing a certain way".
Because bashing shit without giving thoughtout arguments and avoiding the discussion is a lot easier than improving/fixing the situation with useful additions...
On December 22 2013 02:35 verne wrote: There are not enough vetoes for all the CRAP maps. The ladder pool just gets worse and worse. *sigh Im so frustrated with the state of the game in general then they keep releasing utter garbage like alterzim.
it will kill the game for me if this trend continues. Things at blizzard have gone from bad to worse since activision took over.
Out of interest, in your opinion what is a good map?
This is the question I'm always interested in hearing an answer to but I rarely get one. Unconventional maps are hated because they "don't work" for one reason or another, whereas standard maps are hated because they're either "stale" or because they "force me into playing a certain way".
Because bashing shit without giving thoughtout arguments and avoiding the discussion is a lot easier than improving/fixing the situation with useful additions...
See: politics :-)
It's cool to be a hater on the internet yo.
But really, Daedalus for example seems pretty similar to Metalopolis. And games were still exciting to watch back when that map was being used. But people complained super hard about how maps weren't "macro" enough, and what we have thus far happened. I don't mind seeing it tried again.
On December 22 2013 02:35 verne wrote: There are not enough vetoes for all the CRAP maps. The ladder pool just gets worse and worse. *sigh Im so frustrated with the state of the game in general then they keep releasing utter garbage like alterzim.
it will kill the game for me if this trend continues. Things at blizzard have gone from bad to worse since activision took over.
Out of interest, in your opinion what is a good map?
This is the question I'm always interested in hearing an answer to but I rarely get one. Unconventional maps are hated because they "don't work" for one reason or another, whereas standard maps are hated because they're either "stale" or because they "force me into playing a certain way".
To be fair my logic is usually whatever I think is good will turn out to be the opposite of what the populous thinks. I can't stand Polar Night, and to this day I'm amazed it made tournament play. On the other hand I really liked Alterzim, and that seemed to be veto'd by 80% of players and has never been played in a single tournament :\
All 3 new maps are vastly better than the ones they replace. However Heavy Rain looks like it will be a Blink-All in map. So much cliff space into the main.
On December 22 2013 08:31 Koesader wrote: I'm afraid that Daedalus point will see lots of blink stalker allins :/ Edit: Heavy Rain might actually be even worse in this case
or very few. it will be massively vetoed with alterzim and polar dump
TBH Blizz i.e. - DK - should question out the philosophy about units/balancing again - he clearly said that unit role changes won't happen until LotV..
I suggest he questions out that decision again, cause TBH I feel like a lot of people won't watch/play..
The matchups are looong ago figured out (or in the case of PvZ still not quite figured out matchup, but unfortunately stale in the late-game) and because of that - all we see are same games again and again..
Therefore - EVEN ONE bad map, or at least not well polished map, would impact the scene far greater than otherwise a single bad map would
On December 23 2013 06:14 VArsovskiSC wrote: TBH Blizz i.e. - DK - should question out the philosophy about units/balancing again - he clearly said that unit role changes won't happen until LotV..
I suggest he questions out that decision again, cause TBH I feel like a lot of people won't watch/play..
The matchups are looong ago figured out (or in the case of PvZ still not quite figured out matchup, but unfortunately stale in the late-game) and because of that - all we see are same games again and again..
Therefore - EVEN ONE bad map, or at least not well polished map, would impact the scene far greater than otherwise a single bad map would
maybe that's what necessary. Shut everyone up about balance, force EVERYONE to rethink everything. Would be a very interesting experiment. Everyone can still rely on their mechanics, but the metagame would completely shift around. Balance whine would be rampant the first months, but then something will be figured out.
Blizzard is really stupid tbh. It's seriously been impossible to enjoy laddering as a Terran over the past year because it is IMPOSSIBLE to cheese against Z or P, and ridiculously easy to lose to some 1-2 base cheeses from P and Z (mainly P). Too many maps are blink stalker all-in friendly (even PROMOTING). Worst map pool in history. SC2 is at its lowest enjoyment level in every aspect (matchups, high-level games, maps, tournaments, laddering). Please do something Blizz, this just isn't funny anymore.
On December 23 2013 08:17 TimENT wrote: Blizzard is really stupid tbh. It's seriously been impossible to enjoy laddering as a Terran over the past year because it is IMPOSSIBLE to cheese against Z or P, and ridiculously easy to lose to some 1-2 base cheeses from P and Z (mainly P). Too many maps are blink stalker all-in friendly (even PROMOTING). Worst map pool in history. SC2 is at its lowest enjoyment level in every aspect (matchups, high-level games, maps, tournaments, laddering). Please do something Blizz, this just isn't funny anymore.
I feel exactly the same as you right now. I don't know why but everytime the game looks kinda balanced (post hellbat patch HOTS and in the middle of 2011 for WoL), blizzard makes the game worst by applying unnecessary patchs and using retarded maps for ladder instead of picking the great ones from GSL/GSTL or another tournament. I'm starting to think that Blizzard doesn't like SCII when it's correctly balanced and rather to make some strategies/races easy to play so foreigners are making results and non koreans are watching more often tournaments.
On December 23 2013 08:17 TimENT wrote: Blizzard is really stupid tbh. It's seriously been impossible to enjoy laddering as a Terran over the past year because it is IMPOSSIBLE to cheese against Z or P, and ridiculously easy to lose to some 1-2 base cheeses from P and Z (mainly P). Too many maps are blink stalker all-in friendly (even PROMOTING). Worst map pool in history. SC2 is at its lowest enjoyment level in every aspect (matchups, high-level games, maps, tournaments, laddering). Please do something Blizz, this just isn't funny anymore.
I prefer to insta gg and put needles in my eyes vs Protoss
It's not that bad, it's just so hard to figure out whats going on and then when you do, its still damn hard to come up with the perfect solution. Terran lacks options
as terran and protoss Daedalus Point is going to be really hard vs zerg because of the walls but i guess the pros will figure it out but besides that all the maps are really fun to play on and i hope that blizz will keep the gold on habitation station has made for fun games so far for me
GUYS! GUYS! Yo, Custom Map forum bros! THEY LISTENED!
Ooooooooooopen Naturaaaaaaaaaaals! Fuck yes!
This map pool looks insanely awesome. But you know what's depressing? All these people who are bitching and moaning their yaps off because they don't like maps that might actually force a change in the way they play. Good fucking grief.
If an SC2 map can do that, then that's fucking AWESOME!
On December 23 2013 06:14 VArsovskiSC wrote: TBH Blizz i.e. - DK - should question out the philosophy about units/balancing again - he clearly said that unit role changes won't happen until LotV..
I suggest he questions out that decision again, cause TBH I feel like a lot of people won't watch/play..
The matchups are looong ago figured out (or in the case of PvZ still not quite figured out matchup, but unfortunately stale in the late-game) and because of that - all we see are same games again and again..
Therefore - EVEN ONE bad map, or at least not well polished map, would impact the scene far greater than otherwise a single bad map would
maybe that's what necessary. Shut everyone up about balance, force EVERYONE to rethink everything. Would be a very interesting experiment. Everyone can still rely on their mechanics, but the metagame would completely shift around. Balance whine would be rampant the first months, but then something will be figured out.
That's a pretty big assumption to make.
Its been 3 years and there hasn't been a major shift the way TvP is played outside the early game.
On December 23 2013 06:14 VArsovskiSC wrote: TBH Blizz i.e. - DK - should question out the philosophy about units/balancing again - he clearly said that unit role changes won't happen until LotV..
I suggest he questions out that decision again, cause TBH I feel like a lot of people won't watch/play..
The matchups are looong ago figured out (or in the case of PvZ still not quite figured out matchup, but unfortunately stale in the late-game) and because of that - all we see are same games again and again..
Therefore - EVEN ONE bad map, or at least not well polished map, would impact the scene far greater than otherwise a single bad map would
maybe that's what necessary. Shut everyone up about balance, force EVERYONE to rethink everything. Would be a very interesting experiment. Everyone can still rely on their mechanics, but the metagame would completely shift around. Balance whine would be rampant the first months, but then something will be figured out.
That's a pretty big assumption to make.
Its been 3 years and there hasn't been a major shift the way TvP is played outside the early game.
Pretty much every map has been the same for 3 years.
Yeah David Kim got that right, sc2 need about 8 new retarded maps each season to stay fresh and fun, map not tested who look COOL are what this game needed!!
Btw how many map Broodwar got in 8 year to stay the most and best RTS ever ???
Why sc2 can't hire someone not totally retarded ??? ... Damn I would balance this game better that all of them !!! ( most sc2 pro gamer with rts exp would do just the same... Not saying I'm special... )
just thinking about the way they go and what they patch and change make my mind go wtf each time....
Also just want to add that I'm REALY sad they do something like that, sc2 could have been such a good game... Played about 3k game before the patchzerg era...I have even try the exp and I'm sad that the balance and the overall game don't allow me to play again ( I'm terran so that 5x WORST )
im alway looking at patch and change for see if the game allow me to comeback but they do worst and worst shit each time... that just crazy...
signed: a sad player who realy love rts with all my heart and played the first sc for about 10 year.....
I think I'm most interested in Daedalus Point and least interested in Heavy Rain. Probably won't veto anything just to try them out at first but I guess I'll have to see how it goes. Not a fan of joint 2v2 bases :/
On December 23 2013 06:14 VArsovskiSC wrote: TBH Blizz i.e. - DK - should question out the philosophy about units/balancing again - he clearly said that unit role changes won't happen until LotV..
I suggest he questions out that decision again, cause TBH I feel like a lot of people won't watch/play..
The matchups are looong ago figured out (or in the case of PvZ still not quite figured out matchup, but unfortunately stale in the late-game) and because of that - all we see are same games again and again..
Therefore - EVEN ONE bad map, or at least not well polished map, would impact the scene far greater than otherwise a single bad map would
maybe that's what necessary. Shut everyone up about balance, force EVERYONE to rethink everything. Would be a very interesting experiment. Everyone can still rely on their mechanics, but the metagame would completely shift around. Balance whine would be rampant the first months, but then something will be figured out.
That's a pretty big assumption to make.
Its been 3 years and there hasn't been a major shift the way TvP is played outside the early game.
Pretty much every map has been the same for 3 years.
All these maps are fine. The problems that plague this game can be fixed by altering unit HP, vision, food cap, unit speed, reducing effectiveness of AOE and hard counters, etc.
On December 23 2013 22:53 quebecman77 wrote: Yeah David Kim got that right, sc2 need about 8 new retarded maps each season to stay fresh and fun, map not tested who look COOL are what this game needed!!
Btw how many map Broodwar got in 8 year to stay the most and best RTS ever ???
Why sc2 can't hire someone not totally retarded ??? ... Damn I would balance this game better that all of them !!! ( most sc2 pro gamer with rts exp would do just the same... Not saying I'm special... )
just thinking about the way they go and what they patch and change make my mind go wtf each time....
Also just want to add that I'm REALY sad they do something like that, sc2 could have been such a good game... Played about 3k game before the patchzerg era...I have even try the exp and I'm sad that the balance and the overall game don't allow me to play again ( I'm terran so that 5x WORST )
im alway looking at patch and change for see if the game allow me to comeback but they do worst and worst shit each time... that just crazy...
signed: a sad player who realy love rts with all my heart and played the first sc for about 10 year.....
New maps are necessary playing the same maps with the same fast 3 base expansion style of gameplay can get boring. Maps should change up the styles of play we see.
On December 23 2013 22:53 quebecman77 wrote: Yeah David Kim got that right, sc2 need about 8 new retarded maps each season to stay fresh and fun, map not tested who look COOL are what this game needed!!
Btw how many map Broodwar got in 8 year to stay the most and best RTS ever ???
Why sc2 can't hire someone not totally retarded ??? ... Damn I would balance this game better that all of them !!! ( most sc2 pro gamer with rts exp would do just the same... Not saying I'm special... )
just thinking about the way they go and what they patch and change make my mind go wtf each time....
Also just want to add that I'm REALY sad they do something like that, sc2 could have been such a good game... Played about 3k game before the patchzerg era...I have even try the exp and I'm sad that the balance and the overall game don't allow me to play again ( I'm terran so that 5x WORST )
im alway looking at patch and change for see if the game allow me to comeback but they do worst and worst shit each time... that just crazy...
signed: a sad player who realy love rts with all my heart and played the first sc for about 10 year.....
New maps are necessary playing the same maps with the same fast 3 base expansion style of gameplay can get boring. Maps should change up the styles of play we see.
On the other hand, it'd be kind of nice to, you know, be able to wall off a natural for example...
On December 24 2013 09:14 starslayer wrote: http://i.imgur.com/XX2IgIq.jpg if this works i found that this wall off is really good on Daedalus Point
Zerg auto-wins with Roach/Baneling bust.
well it is the rush map and thats if you dont scout it also its terran we can somehow hold roach bane bust with 3cc so we will have to see, tanks might have to be a regular thing on this map shouldnt be to hard to fit them in
all the new maps sucks beside habitation station also why get rid of the best map in the pools bel shire. also all of these maps are perfect for toss all ins. Learn to make maps blizzards. Husky's IMBA league maps are more balanced than this.
On December 23 2013 22:53 quebecman77 wrote: Yeah David Kim got that right, sc2 need about 8 new retarded maps each season to stay fresh and fun, map not tested who look COOL are what this game needed!!
Btw how many map Broodwar got in 8 year to stay the most and best RTS ever ???
Why sc2 can't hire someone not totally retarded ??? ... Damn I would balance this game better that all of them !!! ( most sc2 pro gamer with rts exp would do just the same... Not saying I'm special... )
just thinking about the way they go and what they patch and change make my mind go wtf each time....
Also just want to add that I'm REALY sad they do something like that, sc2 could have been such a good game... Played about 3k game before the patchzerg era...I have even try the exp and I'm sad that the balance and the overall game don't allow me to play again ( I'm terran so that 5x WORST )
im alway looking at patch and change for see if the game allow me to comeback but they do worst and worst shit each time... that just crazy...
signed: a sad player who realy love rts with all my heart and played the first sc for about 10 year.....
New maps are necessary playing the same maps with the same fast 3 base expansion style of gameplay can get boring. Maps should change up the styles of play we see.
On the other hand, it'd be kind of nice to, you know, be able to wall off a natural for example...
On December 24 2013 13:21 blastyblast21 wrote: all the new maps sucks beside habitation station also why get rid of the best map in the pools bel shire. also all of these maps are perfect for toss all ins. Learn to make maps blizzards. Husky's IMBA league maps are more balanced than this.
Cause that map has been in the pool forever and is long overdue to be rotated out
On December 24 2013 17:57 Sapphire.lux wrote: First impression is that Habitation Station looks very ugly, aesthetic wise, and Heavy Rain is a blink Stalker all in map. Otherwise, looks good.
Also, i laugh out loud at the Alterzim rationalization. Bassicaly saying we hear your feedback but fuck you, we do what we want haha
Yeah I can't believe they are keeping alterzim looool.
On December 27 2013 01:37 [OPR] Phoenix wrote: Damn Blizzard. These map pools are only getting worse and worse. Habitation station. really...
Best map of the bunch -- just because it is slightly different. All the rest of the maps are the same bore as previous maps. Standard/boring maps are fine, but it is about time we had something more interesting. Even if it is "imbalanced".
the problem is that standard and boring often means balanced in certain contexts. interesting can often mean horribly imbalanced. which i guess would be interesting, but not cohesive to competition.
On December 27 2013 01:45 Mortal wrote: the problem is that standard and boring often means balanced in certain contexts. interesting can often mean horribly imbalanced. which i guess would be interesting, but not cohesive to competition.
Yeah, I'm fine with most maps being standard, but throwing in 1 different/experimental (possibly imbalanced) map is cool. People have vetoes for a reason. Sure, professional players may not necessarily like it, but there is no way to grow a game without experimentation with things that possibly could be better. Considering LotV is still yet to come to throw off, refresh, and re-balance SC2, there are many opportunities that we should explore. Maps are one of the easier avenues of experimentation.
Habitation I think is going to end up being fun for one season, but if it gets figured out the gold bases are too strong for one race, if it stays in the map pool for another season (since maps so often get played to the ground) it'll go from being an exciting new map to the "oh my god they really kept that stupid gold map in" map.
Alterzim really should have been removed I don't know 1 player that actually enjoys it. If it was just big and a similar shape it is now but removing the expansion in the base it would be ok. The only way an expo in the back of the main actually works and would be balanced is if it was a 2 player map that is small. So it stops players from being too greedy. Like you see ridiculous builds by protoss players specifically on Alterzim, like nexus first into gate which really shouldn't work with regular Zerg timings but it does because of the map. So then the Zerg wants to go super greedy but either realizes oh if the protoss goes forge first we auto lose. So it means you have to do super safe builds that work vs really greedy openers and the forge and the super greedy players get away with everything.
On December 27 2013 01:45 Mortal wrote: the problem is that standard and boring often means balanced in certain contexts. interesting can often mean horribly imbalanced. which i guess would be interesting, but not cohesive to competition.
Yeah, I'm fine with most maps being standard, but throwing in 1 different/experimental (possibly imbalanced) map is cool. People have vetoes for a reason. Sure, professional players may not necessarily like it, but there is no way to grow a game without experimentation with things that possibly could be better. Considering LotV is still yet to come to throw off, refresh, and re-balance SC2, there are many opportunities that we should explore. Maps are one of the easier avenues of experimentation.
Agreed. Moreover, even if a map is bad, playing with it allows for identifying ways to tweak the map and put it back on rotation a season or two later rather than just throwing it out because there is no safe third (for example). In that same spirit, I wonder if Blizzard gives us too many ladder vetoes. Two vetoes, maybe even just one, could be better. So that we are forced to play in different ways and get out of our comfort zone when it comes to builds and strategies. SC2 players can be lazy, IMO.
If Habitation Station proves to be completely imbalanced I will be the first to email blizzard and tell them to take my map off ladder. I do think it should be fairly interesting because of the huge meta game change that we've seen so far in the handful of games played. I'm scared for ladder games, I think it could result in a lot of cheese and proxies and all-ins, although I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the meta breaking interesting to watch games we've seen during TLMC and Red Bull will happen a lot.
Can't wait to see how it all plays out. I'm excited!
On December 27 2013 11:51 SidianTheBard wrote: If Habitation Station proves to be completely imbalanced I will be the first to email blizzard and tell them to take my map off ladder. I do think it should be fairly interesting because of the huge meta game change that we've seen so far in the handful of games played. I'm scared for ladder games, I think it could result in a lot of cheese and proxies and all-ins, although I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the meta breaking interesting to watch games we've seen during TLMC and Red Bull will happen a lot.
Can't wait to see how it all plays out. I'm excited!
You won't have the stats through to back that statement up through. Only Blizzard themselves have. Besides they will very rarely remove a map mid-season unless it is outright broken. It is here to stay for awhile. Should be fun to try out.
So having played on Daedalus Point. What the actual fuck, that ramp is GIGANTIC. You can't actually go FFE on that unless you nexus wall (in which case your wall can be attacked from the low ramp). Aside from nexus walls having always been terrible.
On January 03 2014 03:06 DarkLordOlli wrote: So having played on Daedalus Point. What the actual fuck, that ramp is GIGANTIC. You can't actually go FFE on that unless you nexus wall (in which case your wall can be attacked from the low ramp). Aside from nexus walls having always been terrible.
Immediately going to veto that.
I was wondering about that. Either Nexus-forge-gate wall (like people used to do on Antiga Shipyard) or always gateway expand. Either is not a good option because of how the third is on that map. Would make for easy fast 3 hatch in PvZ with little Protoss can do.
I wonder how broken late 2011/early 2012 3 immortal all-ins will be on that map in PvT. The natural is so wide that no amount of bunkers could safely defend it. That all-in is strong on any map with a wide open natural, and this is the widest, openest yet. It is like Crossfire wide and then some.
So funny to read protoss whine... they got best defence with nexus cannon, warpings, slow-field, etc, and they even can't change their tactics a bit. Only FFE!!!111, anything from that seems autolose for them, lol
On January 03 2014 03:50 Existor wrote: So funny to read protoss whine... they got best defence with nexus cannon, warpings, slow-field, etc, and they even can't change their tactics a bit. Only FFE!!!111, anything from that seems autolose for them, lol
If you had any idea about the game at all you'd see the concern. It's not about warpins, timewarp, nexus cannon, forcefields. It's about the fact that when forge expand isn't an option zerg can get massively ahead every single game by doing greedy 3base openings without risking anything as long as they scout for proxies.
Now, I'm not saying that's how it's going to be and that there's nothing that can be done about it. The rush distance for example is short so you may be able to work with that by chronoboosting units, who knows. But the concern is definitely there.
On January 03 2014 03:50 Existor wrote: So funny to read protoss whine... they got best defence with nexus cannon, warpings, slow-field, etc, and they even can't change their tactics a bit. Only FFE!!!111, anything from that seems autolose for them, lol
Yea, it's funny how protoss cannot wall-off their expansion in time for a simple speedling attack. None of the things you mentioned matter if protoss doesn't have a wall to work with. Apparently you don't like protoss, that's fine, though this is no reason to not use your brain before you write something.
On January 03 2014 03:50 Existor wrote: So funny to read protoss whine... they got best defence with nexus cannon, warpings, slow-field, etc, and they even can't change their tactics a bit. Only FFE!!!111, anything from that seems autolose for them, lol
Yea, it's funny how protoss cannot wall-off their expansion in time for a simple speedling attack. None of the things you mentioned matter if protoss doesn't have a wall to work with. Apparently you don't like protoss, that's fine, though this is no reason to not use your brain before you write something.
Yeah, I dunno what he means by "change their tactics." I don't think losing every game to speedling allin, early pools and roach/ling is a tactic. The openness of the natural is reminiscent of Dual Site, which had an International ZvP winrate of 57% and a 59% winrate in Korea just because of the natural.
On December 27 2013 11:51 SidianTheBard wrote: If Habitation Station proves to be completely imbalanced I will be the first to email blizzard and tell them to take my map off ladder. I do think it should be fairly interesting because of the huge meta game change that we've seen so far in the handful of games played. I'm scared for ladder games, I think it could result in a lot of cheese and proxies and all-ins, although I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the meta breaking interesting to watch games we've seen during TLMC and Red Bull will happen a lot.
Can't wait to see how it all plays out. I'm excited!
please just leave it in :D or you can ask for stats and see how to improve the map from there on, I really don't mind the map being slightly imbalanced if it is interesting
also Daedalus Point is looking great for TvP with all the open spot for drops, as seen from taeja sen game yesterday
yeah I don't know what's up with the FPS issues on these newer maps. Last season it was crappy Polar night FPS issues. Now it's Habitation. Don't think we ever had map causing FPS issues in wings of lib maps or the start of HOTS.
Daedalus Point is just plain bad for both P (pvz) and Z (zvt). Gonna be a TvT festival there. The other 2 are interesting, wonder whether the gold expo will proove to be imba.
On January 03 2014 19:49 LingBlingBling wrote: yeah I don't know what's up with the FPS issues on these newer maps. Last season it was crappy Polar night FPS issues. Now it's Habitation. Don't think we ever had map causing FPS issues in wings of lib maps or the start of HOTS.
Metropolis actually had such bad FPS issues that they had to remove it from the map pool and they never got around to putting it back in.
On January 03 2014 03:50 Existor wrote: So funny to read protoss whine... they got best defence with nexus cannon, warpings, slow-field, etc, and they even can't change their tactics a bit. Only FFE!!!111, anything from that seems autolose for them, lol
Yea, it's funny how protoss cannot wall-off their expansion in time for a simple speedling attack. None of the things you mentioned matter if protoss doesn't have a wall to work with. Apparently you don't like protoss, that's fine, though this is no reason to not use your brain before you write something.
Yeah, I dunno what he means by "change their tactics." I don't think losing every game to speedling allin, early pools and roach/ling is a tactic. The openness of the natural is reminiscent of Dual Site, which had an International ZvP winrate of 57% and a 59% winrate in Korea just because of the natural.
I try to make an effort to play on every map but this and polar night just ruin my day haha. At least on polar night you can take a natural =(
Well, if what I'm, reading here on the forum is true, then you can kiss Habitation Station goodbye. Back when they introduced Metropolis into the pool it was quickly cut due to causing FPS issues, and it was never reintroduced.
Now this would be quite a shame because, despite me not liking Habitation Station all that much, its still a far better map then the other 2 that Blizzard is introducing.
On January 03 2014 19:49 LingBlingBling wrote: yeah I don't know what's up with the FPS issues on these newer maps. Last season it was crappy Polar night FPS issues. Now it's Habitation. Don't think we ever had map causing FPS issues in wings of lib maps or the start of HOTS.
Simply put. Because they aren't Blizzard maps. If there is one thing that community map makers are terribad at, it is to mind their limits. All Blizzard maps are designed to run smoothly even on the lowest end machines (at appropriate graphic options of course), where as a lot of community map makers tend to focus a little too much on making stuff pretty.
Metropolis in WOL was the extreme example of this phenomenon with a flipping million or so moving doodads. That map tanked even the highest end of machines and was a complete disaster when it got to ladder.
But as long as people keep screaming for community map makers to get more influence on ladder, we will keep seeing this happen. Especially because community maps are often matched up against each other in competitions and shiny stuff sells.
From what i see , there are a lot of stacked doodads on Habitation Station , which create fps drops. Someone should really remove some of them. I bet that map has at least 1500 doodads , and a lot of them are moving/spinning.
Habitation Station is quite a fun entry to the map pool, played a game on it last night, looks funky and interesting gold base position. Probably will not be the most balanced map for pro games, but fun for laddering.
On January 03 2014 19:49 LingBlingBling wrote: yeah I don't know what's up with the FPS issues on these newer maps. Last season it was crappy Polar night FPS issues. Now it's Habitation. Don't think we ever had map causing FPS issues in wings of lib maps or the start of HOTS.
Simply put. Because they aren't Blizzard maps. If there is one thing that community map makers are terribad at, it is to mind their limits. All Blizzard maps are designed to run smoothly even on the lowest end machines (at appropriate graphic options of course), where as a lot of community map makers tend to focus a little too much on making stuff pretty.
Metropolis in WOL was the extreme example of this phenomenon with a flipping million or so moving doodads. That map tanked even the highest end of machines and was a complete disaster when it got to ladder.
But as long as people keep screaming for community map makers to get more influence on ladder, we will keep seeing this happen. Especially because community maps are often matched up against each other in competitions and shiny stuff sells.
In my opinion, the community maps are a lot better than the maps that Blizzard produces. I think if Blizzard uses these maps then they have a responsibility to check for these kind of things and to fix them.
On January 03 2014 19:49 LingBlingBling wrote: yeah I don't know what's up with the FPS issues on these newer maps. Last season it was crappy Polar night FPS issues. Now it's Habitation. Don't think we ever had map causing FPS issues in wings of lib maps or the start of HOTS.
Simply put. Because they aren't Blizzard maps. If there is one thing that community map makers are terribad at, it is to mind their limits. All Blizzard maps are designed to run smoothly even on the lowest end machines (at appropriate graphic options of course), where as a lot of community map makers tend to focus a little too much on making stuff pretty.
Metropolis in WOL was the extreme example of this phenomenon with a flipping million or so moving doodads. That map tanked even the highest end of machines and was a complete disaster when it got to ladder.
But as long as people keep screaming for community map makers to get more influence on ladder, we will keep seeing this happen. Especially because community maps are often matched up against each other in competitions and shiny stuff sells.
Sorry but this is just wrong. You are sugesting that maps have low fps because of "doodads" and shiny stuff but on that argument we would see that old pc´s have more problems then new one. But its the opposite there is no consistancy in the framerate drop on some maps, i personally never had problems on metropolis with a dual core and 8800, now i have an i7 and a 770 but have ~40 frames on some new maps.
I think there are just some effects that are badly made. Blizzards map guy know these effects and just doesn´t use them.
Yeah count me in on the daedalus is ridiculous camp. As if the ramp wasn't bad enough, the distance between your outer gas geysers on just 2 bases is freaking ENORMOUS. Muta and drop play are just incredible for maps like this, any less mobile comps are basically fucked.
Its like they created a map that were protoss would be as weak as possible to counteract all the protoss OP talk, but every protoss players will veto this map anyway.
Habitation Station is hell for PvZ if zerg goes swarmhost. So many ledges to abduct stuff from. I have no idea how you want to engage a swarmhost turtle there.
On January 03 2014 23:31 Ravomat wrote: Habitation Station is hell for PvZ if zerg goes swarmhost. So many ledges to abduct stuff from. I have no idea how you want to engage a swarmhost turtle there.
Tempest early gives a frgee gold / strong position vs Main while Z cannot take a gold tho...
On January 03 2014 23:31 Ravomat wrote: Habitation Station is hell for PvZ if zerg goes swarmhost. So many ledges to abduct stuff from. I have no idea how you want to engage a swarmhost turtle there.
Tempest early gives a frgee gold / strong position vs Main while Z cannot take a gold tho...
BLOWS MY MIND THAT PEOPLE CAN BUILD A MAP LIKE DEADALUS AND THINK "GEE THIS MAP WILL WORK GREAT"
it's like those idiots at blizzard don't play their own fuking game, look at the size of that ramp it's absolutely absurd everything about the whole thing
it's like dustin took his 3 year old and said hey let's troll the people that play the game, build a map for them gogo
On January 04 2014 02:14 shivver wrote: BLOWS MY MIND THAT PEOPLE CAN BUILD A MAP LIKE DEADALUS AND THINK "GEE THIS MAP WILL WORK GREAT"
it's like those idiots at blizzard don't play their own fuking game, look at the size of that ramp it's absolutely absurd everything about the whole thing
it's like dustin took his 3 year old and said hey let's troll the people that play the game, build a map for them gogo
I'm a mapmaker and i have done maps with more exposed naturals that Daedalus please explain why open naturals are bad.
The thing that blows my mind is not so the mere existence of Daedalus Point on ladder (which is already quite mesmerizing) but the fact that the poll in the OP seems to indicate that people were eager to play on that astonishingly stupid map.
Come on, couldn't they make it so that it's at least wallable with Nexus ? PvZ is just unplayable on that map if you don't go 3 gate expand à la WoL, and then you just die to mutas which didn't have regen back then. Instant veto.
Edit : Open naturals are bad because you can't expand out of 1 gate or 1 forge on them, and then are just eaten alive by any serious muta play.
On January 04 2014 02:14 shivver wrote: BLOWS MY MIND THAT PEOPLE CAN BUILD A MAP LIKE DEADALUS AND THINK "GEE THIS MAP WILL WORK GREAT"
it's like those idiots at blizzard don't play their own fuking game, look at the size of that ramp it's absolutely absurd everything about the whole thing
it's like dustin took his 3 year old and said hey let's troll the people that play the game, build a map for them gogo
I'm a mapmaker and i have done maps with more exposed naturals that Daedalus please explain why open naturals are bad.
Also Daedalus is not a Blizzard map.
It's nice for PvZ to be a playable match-up.
On January 04 2014 03:01 The_Templar wrote: Looks like on daedalus point you have to do a gateway expand
Free Hatch first for everybody! 3 Hatch before Pool is also good! And early Pools because of the open nat and short rush distance!
On January 04 2014 02:14 shivver wrote: BLOWS MY MIND THAT PEOPLE CAN BUILD A MAP LIKE DEADALUS AND THINK "GEE THIS MAP WILL WORK GREAT"
it's like those idiots at blizzard don't play their own fuking game, look at the size of that ramp it's absolutely absurd everything about the whole thing
it's like dustin took his 3 year old and said hey let's troll the people that play the game, build a map for them gogo
I'm a mapmaker and i have done maps with more exposed naturals that Daedalus please explain why open naturals are bad.
Also Daedalus is not a Blizzard map.
Are you sure? Liquipedia says its a map by Blizzard.
On January 04 2014 02:14 shivver wrote: BLOWS MY MIND THAT PEOPLE CAN BUILD A MAP LIKE DEADALUS AND THINK "GEE THIS MAP WILL WORK GREAT"
it's like those idiots at blizzard don't play their own fuking game, look at the size of that ramp it's absolutely absurd everything about the whole thing
it's like dustin took his 3 year old and said hey let's troll the people that play the game, build a map for them gogo
I'm a mapmaker and i have done maps with more exposed naturals that Daedalus please explain why open naturals are bad.
Also Daedalus is not a Blizzard map.
explain?
Why do you think people started 3 gate sentry expanding in wings of liberty vs z for? Can you tell me the answer to that before I go any further?
On January 04 2014 02:14 shivver wrote: BLOWS MY MIND THAT PEOPLE CAN BUILD A MAP LIKE DEADALUS AND THINK "GEE THIS MAP WILL WORK GREAT"
it's like those idiots at blizzard don't play their own fuking game, look at the size of that ramp it's absolutely absurd everything about the whole thing
it's like dustin took his 3 year old and said hey let's troll the people that play the game, build a map for them gogo
I'm a mapmaker and i have done maps with more exposed naturals that Daedalus please explain why open naturals are bad.
Also Daedalus is not a Blizzard map.
Are you sure? Liquipedia says its a map by Blizzard.
You are right i messed the maps up it is Heavy Rain the one made by Crux ~.~
On January 04 2014 02:55 SidianTheBard wrote: Probably the best type of wall you can do on Daedlus Point. Still can be pretty rough but at least it forces them to funnel in from one location.
I don't think this wall is actually tight where the cannon is due to the corners of the nexus (also its not great having the cannon exposed like that).
On January 04 2014 02:55 SidianTheBard wrote: Probably the best type of wall you can do on Daedlus Point. Still can be pretty rough but at least it forces them to funnel in from one location.
I don't think this wall is actually tight where the cannon is due to the corners of the nexus (also its not great having the cannon exposed like that).
Ahh yeah, that's right, always forget about that. You are correct sir! Well, now it is a lot harder then I originally though haha
On January 04 2014 02:14 shivver wrote: BLOWS MY MIND THAT PEOPLE CAN BUILD A MAP LIKE DEADALUS AND THINK "GEE THIS MAP WILL WORK GREAT"
it's like those idiots at blizzard don't play their own fuking game, look at the size of that ramp it's absolutely absurd everything about the whole thing
it's like dustin took his 3 year old and said hey let's troll the people that play the game, build a map for them gogo
I'm a mapmaker and i have done maps with more exposed naturals that Daedalus please explain why open naturals are bad.
Also Daedalus is not a Blizzard map.
explain?
Why do you think people started 3 gate sentry expanding in wings of liberty vs z for? Can you tell me the answer to that before I go any further?
The rush distance here on daedalus is considerably longer than the maps with open naturals that we had on WoL, also HotS is no WoL, mothership core plays a role that goes beyond the PO and that can't be denied, openings that could have considered All in or suicidal in WoL now are viable because of recall. You can't apply openings of the current metagame to maps which design is to shake the metagame because they won't work, as simple as that, that's what blizzard seeks now, also that's what the community wants to see on pro games, so yeah, even tho open naturals didn't quite worked in WoL it doesn't mean that they won't work now in HotS, even more without having spent a good amount of time developing a metagame for daedalus and other maps with open naturals it can't be claimed that maps with open naturals aren't balanced applying old WoL BO's.
On January 04 2014 02:14 shivver wrote: BLOWS MY MIND THAT PEOPLE CAN BUILD A MAP LIKE DEADALUS AND THINK "GEE THIS MAP WILL WORK GREAT"
it's like those idiots at blizzard don't play their own fuking game, look at the size of that ramp it's absolutely absurd everything about the whole thing
it's like dustin took his 3 year old and said hey let's troll the people that play the game, build a map for them gogo
I'm a mapmaker and i have done maps with more exposed naturals that Daedalus please explain why open naturals are bad.
Also Daedalus is not a Blizzard map.
explain?
Why do you think people started 3 gate sentry expanding in wings of liberty vs z for? Can you tell me the answer to that before I go any further?
The rush distance here on daedalus is considerably longer than the maps with open naturals that we had on WoL, also HotS is no WoL, mothership core plays a role that goes beyond the PO and that can't be denied, openings that could have considered All in or suicidal in WoL now are viable because of recall. You can't apply openings of the current metagame to maps which design is to shake the metagame because they won't work, as simple as that, that's what blizzard seeks now, also that's what the community wants to see on pro games, so yeah, even tho open naturals didn't quite worked in WoL it doesn't mean that they won't work now in HotS, even more without having spent a good amount of time developing a metagame for daedalus and other maps with open naturals it can't be claimed that maps with open naturals aren't balanced applying old WoL BO's.
Tell us then, having explained all that how would you open on this map as protoss vs a zerg?
On January 04 2014 02:14 shivver wrote: BLOWS MY MIND THAT PEOPLE CAN BUILD A MAP LIKE DEADALUS AND THINK "GEE THIS MAP WILL WORK GREAT"
it's like those idiots at blizzard don't play their own fuking game, look at the size of that ramp it's absolutely absurd everything about the whole thing
it's like dustin took his 3 year old and said hey let's troll the people that play the game, build a map for them gogo
I'm a mapmaker and i have done maps with more exposed naturals that Daedalus please explain why open naturals are bad.
Also Daedalus is not a Blizzard map.
explain?
Why do you think people started 3 gate sentry expanding in wings of liberty vs z for? Can you tell me the answer to that before I go any further?
The rush distance here on daedalus is considerably longer than the maps with open naturals that we had on WoL, also HotS is no WoL, mothership core plays a role that goes beyond the PO and that can't be denied, openings that could have considered All in or suicidal in WoL now are viable because of recall. You can't apply openings of the current metagame to maps which design is to shake the metagame because they won't work, as simple as that, that's what blizzard seeks now, also that's what the community wants to see on pro games, so yeah, even tho open naturals didn't quite worked in WoL it doesn't mean that they won't work now in HotS, even more without having spent a good amount of time developing a metagame for daedalus and other maps with open naturals it can't be claimed that maps with open naturals aren't balanced applying old WoL BO's.
Tell us then, having explained all that how would you open on this map as protoss vs a zerg?
Economic 1 base pressure, make damage, recall back, Expand.
There's no such thing as economic 1 base pressure in PvZ, plus the chances are high the Z opens with a 14/14 here which would destroy any attempt at a pressure. No, I think if you're P and ever play that map against Z I think you should go 3 gates sentry expand WoL-style. MsC will definitely help but walling the nat will be a hell.
On January 04 2014 02:14 shivver wrote: BLOWS MY MIND THAT PEOPLE CAN BUILD A MAP LIKE DEADALUS AND THINK "GEE THIS MAP WILL WORK GREAT"
it's like those idiots at blizzard don't play their own fuking game, look at the size of that ramp it's absolutely absurd everything about the whole thing
it's like dustin took his 3 year old and said hey let's troll the people that play the game, build a map for them gogo
I'm a mapmaker and i have done maps with more exposed naturals that Daedalus please explain why open naturals are bad.
Also Daedalus is not a Blizzard map.
explain?
Why do you think people started 3 gate sentry expanding in wings of liberty vs z for? Can you tell me the answer to that before I go any further?
The rush distance here on daedalus is considerably longer than the maps with open naturals that we had on WoL, also HotS is no WoL, mothership core plays a role that goes beyond the PO and that can't be denied, openings that could have considered All in or suicidal in WoL now are viable because of recall. You can't apply openings of the current metagame to maps which design is to shake the metagame because they won't work, as simple as that, that's what blizzard seeks now, also that's what the community wants to see on pro games, so yeah, even tho open naturals didn't quite worked in WoL it doesn't mean that they won't work now in HotS, even more without having spent a good amount of time developing a metagame for daedalus and other maps with open naturals it can't be claimed that maps with open naturals aren't balanced applying old WoL BO's.
Tell us then, having explained all that how would you open on this map as protoss vs a zerg?
Economic 1 base pressure, make damage, recall back, Expand.
lol see I mean, forgive me mods but stuff like this is just engraging because as an actual PLAYER of my race I just look at this and think "silver"
On January 04 2014 02:14 shivver wrote: BLOWS MY MIND THAT PEOPLE CAN BUILD A MAP LIKE DEADALUS AND THINK "GEE THIS MAP WILL WORK GREAT"
it's like those idiots at blizzard don't play their own fuking game, look at the size of that ramp it's absolutely absurd everything about the whole thing
it's like dustin took his 3 year old and said hey let's troll the people that play the game, build a map for them gogo
I'm a mapmaker and i have done maps with more exposed naturals that Daedalus please explain why open naturals are bad.
Also Daedalus is not a Blizzard map.
explain?
Why do you think people started 3 gate sentry expanding in wings of liberty vs z for? Can you tell me the answer to that before I go any further?
The rush distance here on daedalus is considerably longer than the maps with open naturals that we had on WoL, also HotS is no WoL, mothership core plays a role that goes beyond the PO and that can't be denied, openings that could have considered All in or suicidal in WoL now are viable because of recall. You can't apply openings of the current metagame to maps which design is to shake the metagame because they won't work, as simple as that, that's what blizzard seeks now, also that's what the community wants to see on pro games, so yeah, even tho open naturals didn't quite worked in WoL it doesn't mean that they won't work now in HotS, even more without having spent a good amount of time developing a metagame for daedalus and other maps with open naturals it can't be claimed that maps with open naturals aren't balanced applying old WoL BO's.
Tell us then, having explained all that how would you open on this map as protoss vs a zerg?
Economic 1 base pressure, make damage, recall back, Expand.
it's nice to confirm the fact that some map makers don't actually play/understand the game.
You can't even put your CC as part of the wall on Heavy Rain because the gas is too close... I can't believe how amateurish this is. Worst map pool since like more than one year.
On January 04 2014 04:33 Uvantak wrote: Meh, wherever you wish.
I jumped to the editor to check the walls and here are a couple for you guys.
Weak
Stronger
It's still fucking vulnerable to everything, and you lose the highground advantage.
Anyway, better veto this map and wait for the next season :p.
High ground advantage doesn't exist. Sure there's the difference in vision but that disappears after a single unit gets up the ramp, which takes only a fraction of a second from when the units start attacking.
lol @ heavy rain and how big the area for blink allins, reaper entry and drops is. Blizzard doesn't say, "here's a map with weird design, let's see what players do with it," instead they say, "we want players to get 0 risk reaper scouting, to do blink allins and to drop a lot." They do the same thing with their balance patches. "We want players to make burrowed Roaches a lot so we buffed it. Players still aren't doing it so we buffed it again."
If they nerf blink somehow I'm going to be really pissed. Not because I blink allin all the time (I've only done it once), but because they make maps that are so good for blink that you can't not do it.
If wasn't for the ramp I think that Daedalus Point would not be a bad map. What if Blizzard placed a destructible rock in one corner of the natural ramp?
I really don't like Heavy Rain, i think it is ugly and adds nothing new to the map pool. Can we change it with one of the new proleague maps? any of the 2 new...
After playing on them, both Heavy Rain and Habitation Station actually aren't that bad. I'd even say I enjoy playing them both. Daedalus though, hahahahahahah wow.... I play zerg and I still hate it. All things considered, I guess it could be worse
On January 08 2014 06:13 Lobotomist wrote: Daedalus does seem pretty ridiculous for TvZ, what's to stop me from simply going all in with ling/baneling or ling/roach every game?
For 2v2 though, what's with all the crooked maw hate? That map looks super sick.
Or to stop me from going speedling expand in ZvP and delay his natural for a few minutes. I honestly have no idea how I would lose ZvP on that map. Downvoted it now tho cause autowinning ZvP and just playing 13pool vs 13pool in ZvZ isn't really that useful spending of my time.
My god is Daedalus point ever bad. Gave it 3 games to win me over, couldn't bear it, had to veto. Havn't played a single habitation station game yet.. does everyone have that veto'd for some reason or something ?
On January 08 2014 06:38 ffadicted wrote: My god is Daedalus point ever bad. Gave it 3 games to win me over, couldn't bear it, had to veto. Havn't played a single habitation station game yet.. does everyone have that veto'd for some reason or something ?
Wth. What is your secret!? I veto'd that map and then had to play it 3-4 times in a row.
As Protoss you can't play against Zerg. It's just impossible to hold your natural and 1 base builds are obviously not viable.
As Terran both Protoss and Zerg allins are way too strong. Distance from main to natural as well as the huge cliff makes Mothership Core + Stalkers wayyyyyy too strong and any Roach / Ling / Bane allin can't be walled off reasonably in time.
On January 08 2014 06:58 DinoMight wrote: Daedalus is fucking awful.
As Protoss you can't play against Zerg. It's just impossible to hold your natural and 1 base builds are obviously not viable.
As Terran both Protoss and Zerg allins are way too strong. Distance from main to natural as well as the huge cliff makes Mothership Core + Stalkers wayyyyyy too strong and any Roach / Ling / Bane allin can't be walled off reasonably in time.
Veto because RNG decides the outcome of the battle in pretty much every matchup, ZvZ is a cheesefest and PvP is 1 base only?
With all the knowledge we have accumulated during the lifetime of sc2 I cant believe a map designed like Daedalus is in the map pool and even WCS. I wish they would just fix the natural and the obvious stuff because it might be a fun map if they did.
On January 08 2014 06:58 DinoMight wrote: Daedalus is fucking awful.
As Protoss you can't play against Zerg. It's just impossible to hold your natural and 1 base builds are obviously not viable.
As Terran both Protoss and Zerg allins are way too strong. Distance from main to natural as well as the huge cliff makes Mothership Core + Stalkers wayyyyyy too strong and any Roach / Ling / Bane allin can't be walled off reasonably in time.
Veto because RNG decides the outcome of the battle in pretty much every matchup, ZvZ is a cheesefest and PvP is 1 base only?
Yeah, I don't see PvP going > 1 base on this map. Blink all-ins or DTs or Stargate allins. But the huge cliff to the main combined with the huge distance from main to natural and huuuuuuge ramp at the natural makes it unplayable.
ZvZ is the same - it takes a queen 45 minutes to get from main to natural and another 45 minutes to spread creep between the two. Ramp is too wide to be walled off. Cheesier player wins IMO.
PvZ requires the zerg to be able to hold a 4 gate because that's pretty much the only viable build on this map lol. PvT on this map is insanely in the favor of P if T tries to play a macro game.
TvX on this map is limited to 1 base because the natural is impossible to hold.
Garbage map. It takes everyone we know about map design and shits all over it.
EDI - I quite like habitation station though.
Heavy Rain is meh but playable. Ugly tileset though.
Polar Night and Alterzim contenders for 2nd worst map after Daedalus.
After playing a 20 games on the new map pool I can say that, my choice to veto Alterzim, Yeonsu and Deadelus was the correct one. Alterzim is just stupid with that setup, I'm not a fan of free bases. Yeonsu is too blink friendly, even though I like TvT and TvZ on it, the map is horrible for TvP, thanks but no thanks. Deadelus is like a 2010 map, worst possible architecture, distance from main to nat a bit too long and awkwardly placed ramp, huge nat ramp, huge surface area for blink surrounding the main, unimaginative middle.
Deadelus forces Terran to go Rax, Gas into fast Hellions, which is just terrible in TvZ because you fall behind on eco and have no reliable way to catch up, terran pressures and all-ins aren't strong enough to cause zerg to play cautiously so they just gain a free advantage. Its even worst in TvP because pressures and all-ins vs Toss are nearly non existent on the terran side, meanwhile the toss can do several pressures, which can turn into kill moves, especially with that ramp, and they still have a plethora of other obnoxious tricks, like blink and Oracles.
So, thanks but no thanks.
Habitation Station has been my favorite and most interesting new map so far. Its always fun when a Zerg takes the gold as his third and I end up doing a small tank push from my own gold to his. Heavy Rain isn't too bad either, however I'd say it heavily favors mech over bio, because of all the tight chokes and narrow corridors. I guess it could go either way in TvZ bio vs ling bling muta, if you push down a narrow corridor the zerg can't flank and they have to run trough a deep minefield, but you can't marine split as well either, mech and SH seem strongest here. In TvT it will be hard to get surrounds and flanks on tank lines, so the best approach would probably be to hold your ground with a small force while trying to pull your opponent out off position with small task forces going around the map. In TvP, you can't get storm flanked as easily because of the corridors and chokes, but you can't split as easily either, so storm drops via WP will hurt like hell, same for Ghost drops though. Vikings should be ok on the map, because you can position them on some of the cliffs to the sides, giving more surface area where storms need to be placed to be efficient, limiting their power, while also forcing the toss to move around in a weird way.
So, from my perspective Heavy Rain is ok, not the best I've seen but not the worst.
I mean Starstation and Derelict were horrible maps too. But to be replaced by maps that are not a bit better is again just a terrible job done by Blizzard. I really wish them to just abandon SC2 and leave the balancing and mappool stuff to the community.
On January 08 2014 11:53 Squat wrote: Seeing the poll for Daedalus makes my brain hurt.
Bah, I guess many people blindly vote under the assumption that "new is good". All the GM/pros I have seen talk about Daedalus say how bad the map is. Apparently even Zergs don't like it because of ZvZ.
I haven't played SC2 at all this season, but I'll probably try to ladder some tonight and mess around with the new maps. I've heard only bad things about them so I'm curious to see exactly why.
On January 08 2014 11:53 Squat wrote: Seeing the poll for Daedalus makes my brain hurt.
Bah, I guess many people blindly vote under the assumption that "new is good". All the GM/pros I have seen talk about Daedalus say how bad the map is. Apparently even Zergs don't like it because of ZvZ.
They all say how bad it is because it forces them to do something different. It's always been the same, always. Pros should feel uncomfortable on some maps, without that the game stagnates like it has done since release.
On January 08 2014 11:53 Squat wrote: Seeing the poll for Daedalus makes my brain hurt.
Bah, I guess many people blindly vote under the assumption that "new is good". All the GM/pros I have seen talk about Daedalus say how bad the map is. Apparently even Zergs don't like it because of ZvZ.
They all say how bad it is because it forces them to do something different. It's always been the same, always. Pros should feel uncomfortable on some maps, without that the game stagnates like it has done since release.
They all say how bad it is because in at least two match-ups, one side has the advantage by default even if the other side does its best to adapt to the map. And there are far more elements in the game itself which are responsible for limiting the variety in SC2. Even regarding maps, map making is limited by SC2 (at least for fair competitive play) rather than the reverse.
On January 08 2014 07:51 Teoita wrote: I seriously can't believe Daedalus is in the WCS map pool. PvZ and TvZ are just not playable on it.
This.
It's like they didn't even play it ONCE before publishing it and throwing it in the map pool.
Did you play on it? Zerg has huge problem if Terran comes with hellions. Just put 2 evo's to make a wall with queens doesnt work on daedalus.
So what? Reactor Hellions was defendable before the Queen patch even on maps like Metalopolis or XNC with a similar wide open natural, so don't pretend it's no longer possible now that your Queens have range 5. You simply forgot how it was done in 2011.
On January 08 2014 11:53 Squat wrote: Seeing the poll for Daedalus makes my brain hurt.
Bah, I guess many people blindly vote under the assumption that "new is good". All the GM/pros I have seen talk about Daedalus say how bad the map is. Apparently even Zergs don't like it because of ZvZ.
They all say how bad it is because it forces them to do something different. It's always been the same, always. Pros should feel uncomfortable on some maps, without that the game stagnates like it has done since release.
Its unplayable for protoss. Not one build will be viable PvZ.
The only "viable" build could be 3 gate sentry expo but that build loses terribly to zerg if they get 3 hatches quick. If you scout and see a quick 3rd hatch, you have already committed to 2 gas opening and there's not much you can do at that point but 3 gate sentry expand.
you can't even pressure because you would need 200 energy on a mothership core to move out recall and overcharge should anything bad happen. And even then there is no way to do enough damage to slow down the Z economy or be even close to even on econ with them.
On January 08 2014 11:53 Squat wrote: Seeing the poll for Daedalus makes my brain hurt.
Bah, I guess many people blindly vote under the assumption that "new is good". All the GM/pros I have seen talk about Daedalus say how bad the map is. Apparently even Zergs don't like it because of ZvZ.
They all say how bad it is because it forces them to do something different. It's always been the same, always. Pros should feel uncomfortable on some maps, without that the game stagnates like it has done since release.
There is a border between good, fresh and flat out stupid.
It's gone. The falling snow has been removed from this map.
This change has been made in all regions.
Remember when It was Bel'Shir Beach and then it got changed to Bel'Shir Beach Winter? They should change the textures to a beach and name it Polar Night Summer.
It's gone. The falling snow has been removed from this map.
This change has been made in all regions.
Remember when It was Bel'Shir Beach and then it got changed to Bel'Shir Beach Winter? They should change the textures to a beach and name it Polar Night Summer.
It's gone. The falling snow has been removed from this map.
This change has been made in all regions.
Remember when It was Bel'Shir Beach and then it got changed to Bel'Shir Beach Winter? They should change the textures to a beach and name it Polar Night Summer.
Welp... I like the structure of Heavy Rain, but I both love and hate the color scheme simutaneously. It feels so remote and distant, yet there's something nostalgic about it...
On February 02 2014 12:48 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Welp... I like the structure of Heavy Rain, but I both love and hate the color scheme simutaneously. It feels so remote and distant, yet there's something nostalgic about it...
And then you get blink stalker all-inned on it. A bitter-sweet taste. Like the unfulfilled promise of a summer all too cold and grim, yet eerily melodious.
On February 02 2014 15:33 SidianTheBard wrote: I'd love to hear feedback on Hab Station after all you players have had plenty of time to play games on it. <3
Honestly as a masters terran, I love the map, I always take the gold as my third and I feel that it creates good games. The only thing I guess is an issue is that it has the tendency to get split so you get long drawn out games which some people tend to dislike. I feel that this is more of an issue with zvp but I can't really comment to much on that. I think more attack paths could help but I am not to sure about this, so far it is my fav map by far this season and I really did miss the gold bases in sc2. Good job and please keep striving to make interesting and unique maps. It gets so old with every map playing the same almost all the time, on Habitation there is actually a reason to try and mix in tanks to army comps that normally would not include them.
On February 02 2014 15:33 SidianTheBard wrote: I'd love to hear feedback on Hab Station after all you players have had plenty of time to play games on it. <3
Love it as Terran too. The gold bases seem pretty balanced because of the watch tower and because of how risky they are. I keep seeing Zergs play greedy and go for, and I love punishing them. Also a good mech map because of all the chokes, and short distances. Had a bunch of really great games on it.
Also love the nat since it can be blocked by 3 depots and a barracks.
After 1+ year of boring long distances maps I think this one is a fair compromise.
I think the craziest thing I've seen from the map is that from the stats I've seen it is actually zerg favored in every matchup. (at least at the moment) and it's weird because not only are there a lot of chokes through out the map, but it also has a very short rush distance nat to nat. Both things which have been said time and time again are "anti-zerg". Maybe it's just because the gold is a viable 3rd, although we still see plenty of zergs taking the standard blue base 3rd so /shrug. Could also be the fact that swarm host is pretty strong on the map and a lot of zergs are abusing that as well.
Either way, maybe it isn't the most enjoyable map for players to play on since there are so many things that are viable on the map, but I'll tell you what, spectating games played on the map is usually always enjoyable.
On February 02 2014 15:33 SidianTheBard wrote: I'd love to hear feedback on Hab Station after all you players have had plenty of time to play games on it. <3
Map is great. I think having both a gold base and a normal base for your 3rd's choice is a really clever decision.
I can see you put quite a lot of thoughts on the 4th and 5th location as well, sadly I haven't really got around utilizing those features.
On February 02 2014 15:33 SidianTheBard wrote: I'd love to hear feedback on Hab Station after all you players have had plenty of time to play games on it. <3
Skeptical at first i really like it.
The goldbase is really well placed, high risk high reward like it should be, i like the main bases too, not too big and not too small. I think it is a bit P favored in TvP because of all the chokes and the relative small open places but in times with Frost, Yonsue and Heavy Rain that is very forgivable.
Going back on the gold base what might be interesting would be to make it mineral only, but it is just a quick thought of me.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/p4gCZtj.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bRZYKPN.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/V8rBnS2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jss0ahw.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/M4DHBml.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/B2Yt8Dc.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eaPe7xS.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JL3CPXg.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Z6IhZGW.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eGUWLWL.jpg)
wish they removed alterzim though
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DQz2zI3.jpg?1)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/396_Xel'Naga%20Caverns.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GZzwDCP.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/D4uPJax.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1po95Hr.jpg)
