EPTSK MC's thoughts on the current state of SC2 - Page 11
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On September 02 2013 15:40 BillGates wrote: I agree with his balance analysis and feel the same way, but I also think there is a problem in PvT where protoss lack early game options, zealots just suck for pretty much anything and you can't send out 10 zealots to harass or do damage, stalkers are pretty much the same, so the game is overly dependant on Colossus. I think Colossus should be nerfed significantly and zealots and stalkers buffed. Around what timestamp are we actually talking about? As a terran player, TvP has probably the most frustrating early game for me... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 02 2013 15:59 bo1b wrote: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments There hasn't been a single non korean to win a premier tournament since hots was released. There have been 9 terran wins, 5 zerg wins, and 3 protoss wins. Interestingly enough, out of the 9 terran wins, 8 of them went to someone different. Polt is as always the exception, doubling up in premier tournaments, and winning despite being a full time student. Jaedong also appears the most amount of times with 4 second place finishes. Well, Zerg has as many final participations as Terran. I don't think we have a balance problem. It's just how MC says: TvZ in WoL was better. Imbalanced, yes, but better because it made sense and wasn't a low/mid tier unit spam for all game long. With much more positional play. | ||
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ARLEN
Sweden21 Posts
I've always watched Starcraft, from the old BW days til now and im not planning to stop watching either. | ||
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ReMinD_
Croatia846 Posts
On September 02 2013 13:17 hjkim1304 wrote: In my opinion, Blizzard is too big, old fashioned, and sluggish. It will never be able to act effectively enough to ever satisfy the eSports scene's needs. But with that said, Blizzard's heart is in the right place. At the end of the day, who doesn't want their product to be shown to tens of thousands of people? However, there are so many different ways that Starcraft eSports could grow, but we are too divided between the game developers, the community, and the players. We need the transparency and an effective communication system so that we can work towards a common vision. We could accomplish so much by just being on the same page, but turning to that page is just so damn hard. Anyway, the bolded part is what I agree the most with in this thread. Blizzard needs to pick up the pace if they want for this game to survive. While Dota 2 (and I presume LoL, too) are putting out new changes on a weekly basis, SC2 has had, what, 3 minor changes in 4-5 months. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
Edit: One thing I'd like to add is, that I think that Blizzard needs to try more risky changes with the game and change the game more frequently, as soon as they see something becoming stale. And I would wish that progamers stopped complaining publicly when the game changes or Blizzard tries something. I know they live on the balance of the game, but in the long run, faster and more drastic changes will keep the game interesting and the scene alive. As MC said, be professional in every aspect. Also pay pros to play the balance testmaps, more drastic changes have to be tested a lot of course. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7291 Posts
On September 02 2013 15:42 Myrddraal wrote: This is kind of how it seems to me, I feel like with HotS they had the opportunity to make some more drastic changes and bring more variety to the game, but it wasn't quite enough to get me fully interested in playing again or watching full time. To be honest I think I would find the game more interesting if they added all the campaign units to the game and let the pros work out the balance (toning down anything that was particularly broken). It may not be a popular opinion, but I think just having a larger variety of possible compositions and different ways to deal with certain things would make things more interesting though I think it would work best if "Terrible Terrible Damage" was toned down such that there were more benefits to having a mixed composition and individual unit micro played a bigger part in larger battles. This is getting a bit out there, but maybe even an enforced limit of the number of each unit that can be produced would be beneficial so varied compositions is a must. The main thing though, which I feel is most in line with your post, is that I just wish Blizzard would at least try some more interesting solutions so it felt like they were putting in more effort. At first they mostly seemed afraid to make significant changes, but lately it does just feel like a lack of care. I mean, they make Test Maps for players to test new changes, but the changes in those maps are usually pretty minor and uninteresting, why not try out some more significant changes to spice things up. One final idea that could potentially make the game more interesting, yet preserve what we already have, would be to introduce the possibility of different "versions" being simultaneously available. This way you could make changes that drastically affect the whole game and matchups, without negatively affecting matchmaking or tournaments and whichever version became most popular could become the standard. I don't really want to discuss the merits or flaws of my rambling suggestions, all I really want to say as that to get me interested in the game again, something significant would have to be done to provide additional variety. Edit: I should add that I understand that what made starcraft stand out initially was the fact that the races were so different yet it was still so balanced, and adding extra units or shaking things up too much could really disrupt this, but the fact is that I just don't find the game as interesting as I used to, and I don't think minor changes would be enough for me. I like how Blizzard is going about balance, its a delicate thing and they go about the actual changes very delicately. That being said, with the Patch test realm being a thing, having a Patch test realm with more dramatic changes on it that aren't necessarily planned for release ASAP, but more for the sake of experimentation could be a really cool idea. A place where Blizzard could experiment with the factors of SC2 that are more radical and more likely to dramatically influence the game could be a really interesting thing. For one it'd probably attract a lot more people due to the nature of extreme change on the game, and it could really help to have community feedback throughout the development of larger scale patches. Maybe I'm just being idealistic there, but it sounds like it could be really interesting. | ||
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
While I fully agree with his lambasting of TvZ as lacking in variety and depth, I still maintain that it's the single most exciting matchup to watch that we've ever had. | ||
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KarneEspada
United States72 Posts
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
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stuneedsfood
45 Posts
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manicshock
Canada741 Posts
On September 02 2013 12:57 saddaromma wrote: We don't even know if mech works or not. Since 4M is so reliable no one ever explored mech in tvz. So, please drop these claims that mech doesn't work. Rofl. Maybe you should ask yourself this one question: Why has no one tried mech in TvZ? Hmm. Well let's just take a look. Oh, neat. Zerg have this little used called the viper. It can pull all my tanks. So playing anything except MMMW is a waste in the late game. I think you've found the problem sir. No terran progamer is willing to risk their chance at winning big tourneys (especially not Flash, who loves BW tank style), and would rather just MMMW. I award you 1 TvZ point. You can spend it at any local store, and buy zerg paraphernalia like this T-Shirt with a giant zergling on the front. | ||
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SCnai
322 Posts
On September 02 2013 12:34 hjkim1304 wrote: Well anyway, here is MC's post. (...) Any RTS games tend to become boring as soon as the variety of build orders diminishes and the metagame becomes stagnant and one dimensional. That's not characteristic of RTS games but of badly designed competitive games in general. Once the design flaws are understood, they can (and must) be exploited. You'll notice that while the article is full of comparisons to BW, on this point it's conspicuously lacking. That's because BW was fresh with new strategies discovered and paradigm shifts till the last day of pro BW. That's years after the last patch. For that the depth must be in the game design itself though. Players and coaches cannot create it ex nihilo. | ||
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ImperialFist
790 Posts
On September 02 2013 15:59 bo1b wrote: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments There hasn't been a single non korean to win a premier tournament since hots was released. There have been 9 terran wins, 5 zerg wins, and 3 protoss wins. Interestingly enough, out of the 9 terran wins, 8 of them went to someone different. Polt is as always the exception, doubling up in premier tournaments, and winning despite being a full time student. Jaedong also appears the most amount of times with 4 second place finishes. Taeja also won 2 times | ||
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scr
Hungary1025 Posts
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Kishin2
United States7534 Posts
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UmberBane
Germany5450 Posts
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v1n1z1o
Mexico185 Posts
EXACTLY there is no need for unnecessary bm in the community what do ppl gain from being rude to other in the community? unless you are one of those who just like to watch the world burn for no reason. I myself was one of those ppl when I was a player, now Im a leader of an amateur team and i see how much it really impacts the ppl around you to just smile and say "its ok" after they've (my players) suffered a nasty loss instead of calling them a noob or saying things like wow you are bad. (ive seen this happen in other teams) I feel like if there is a way for the community to follow mcs words its with this quote. I hope you people really try and refrain from directing bm towards their opponent. sure we can say things like "fuck terran" or stuff like that. but when you say "fuck you fa***t" thats when it makes the community look really bad and makes people want to play the game less and less... sorry for long post. i really hope more pro players see this thread and are inspired to write more threads like these. this was right on the dot Thanks for translation! this was awesome! | ||
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Myrddraal
Australia937 Posts
On September 02 2013 16:06 Zambrah wrote: I like how Blizzard is going about balance, its a delicate thing and they go about the actual changes very delicately. That being said, with the Patch test realm being a thing, having a Patch test realm with more dramatic changes on it that aren't necessarily planned for release ASAP, but more for the sake of experimentation could be a really cool idea. A place where Blizzard could experiment with the factors of SC2 that are more radical and more likely to dramatically influence the game could be a really interesting thing. For one it'd probably attract a lot more people due to the nature of extreme change on the game, and it could really help to have community feedback throughout the development of larger scale patches. Maybe I'm just being idealistic there, but it sounds like it could be really interesting. Oh yeah, I am absolutely being idealistic haha, and while I agree that the delicate nature of balance worked well in the past, balance patches are much less frequent and change much less than they did early-mid WoL and with seemingly declining interest in the game I think it might be time to shake things up a bit. For example someone mentioned Vipers making mech useless in TvZ and we know Immortals shut down mech pretty hard in PvT, I think hard counters like these really restrict the viable strategies, but I think if we were to dull some hard counters, we would want to dull a lot of hard counters (in an attempt to preserve balance), which I would be really interested to see. But even if the balance team liked such ideas, they would also think that it sounds like a lot of work, and could potentially receive a lot of backlash (who am I kidding, they would receive a lot of backlash regardless) if they were to implement it even if it would be much better in the long run. Though if they were to just test things like this in Test Maps, and get community approval, including from community figureheads, before following through with any major changes, I think larger changes like that would become a greater possibility. | ||
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Joedaddy
United States1948 Posts
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