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SK MC's thoughts on the current state of SC2 - Page 12

Forum Index > SC2 General
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bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
September 02 2013 07:41 GMT
#221
On September 02 2013 16:22 ImperialFist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 02 2013 15:59 bo1b wrote:
On September 02 2013 15:52 ImperialFist wrote:
Yeah lets remove the mines.

Terran isn't winning any games now anyway outside of 5-6 korean terrans and they will do good even without mines because God-Mode.

The few remaining pro-foreign Terrans should just switch race and get it over with.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments

There hasn't been a single non korean to win a premier tournament since hots was released. There have been 9 terran wins, 5 zerg wins, and 3 protoss wins.

Interestingly enough, out of the 9 terran wins, 8 of them went to someone different. Polt is as always the exception, doubling up in premier tournaments, and winning despite being a full time student.

Jaedong also appears the most amount of times with 4 second place finishes.


Taeja also won 2 times



Oh good eye, can't believe I missed that
theking1
Profile Joined June 2013
Romania658 Posts
September 02 2013 07:42 GMT
#222
mc speaks the truth.maybe somebody at blizzard can listen to him
jarod
Profile Joined September 2010
Romania766 Posts
September 02 2013 07:42 GMT
#223
MC is a pro as always. In all the ways i mean.
Thanks for the translation.
Maru | Life | herO
CrazyF1r3f0x
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2120 Posts
September 02 2013 07:45 GMT
#224
It's always nice to hear what MC has to say.
"Actual happiness always looks pretty squalid in comparison with the overcompensations for misery."
mongoose22
Profile Joined July 2012
174 Posts
September 02 2013 07:49 GMT
#225
I agree with a lot of what MC says. Blizzard really is in a no-win situation when it comes to balance, though. Either they're tweaking too much, or they're tweaking too little, and which accusation is leveled depends on which fan you ask. Plus I doubt they get a lot of valuable actual play data on those balance maps they release; whatever change they make, there will be more people talking about the changes they want Blizzard to make rather than the changes that are actually being tested. I almost wish they listened to fans less and balanced more frequently, like a balance patch after the end of every WCS season, because at least then they'd be taking a definite direction instead of trying to appease fans who will never be completely happy with whatever they decide. Not everything has to have an 80% online poll approval to go in.

As for the game balance itself, I do think something needs to be done about the widow mine. Its prevalence and power is one of the primary reasons for the lack of mech, when the mines can fill so many roles: AoE, drop harass, air defense, retreat cover. David Kim mentioned a while back that the balance team's determination was that the mine's splash radius was definitely too high, and yet they've become so tweak-shy and cautious from fan backlash IMO that they've tip-toed around any major changes and have yet to majorly alter the mine.
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-02 07:52:06
September 02 2013 07:49 GMT
#226
On September 02 2013 16:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
I'm surprised there was no mention of TvP. As a Zerg player, this match-up is so incredibly boring to watch. Every single game it's the same damn thing and most of the time there's not a single engagement till 15th minute. I just turn off stream when there's a PvT.

Show nested quote +
On September 02 2013 13:17 hjkim1304 wrote:
On September 02 2013 12:56 Whiplash wrote:
Very good post by MC. I would love to see blizzard's honest thoughts on his post.

In my opinion, Blizzard is too big, old fashioned, and sluggish. It will never be able to act effectively enough to ever satisfy the eSports scene's needs. But with that said, Blizzard's heart is in the right place. At the end of the day, who doesn't want their product to be shown to tens of thousands of people? However, there are so many different ways that Starcraft eSports could grow, but we are too divided between the game developers, the community, and the players. We need the transparency and an effective communication system so that we can work towards a common vision. We could accomplish so much by just being on the same page, but turning to that page is just so damn hard.


Anyway, the bolded part is what I agree the most with in this thread. Blizzard needs to pick up the pace if they want for this game to survive. While Dota 2 (and I presume LoL, too) are putting out new changes on a weekly basis, SC2 has had, what, 3 minor changes in 4-5 months.



I think Dota 2 and LoL are slightly different beasts when it comes to balance. Because players aren't 'attached' to a hero like SC2 players are attached to a race and they can pick the OP heroes for themselves plus you can ban OP'ed heros.

BW was balanced around maps. But the way SC2 is designed, the map structure gives very little defensive bonus so it is hard for maps to help with balance unless they do something drastic with base locations. And most sc2 maps are built around easy to take 3rds (hard to take 3rds basically promotes 2 base all-ins), so it is quite difficult to balance small things just using maps.
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-02 07:52:38
September 02 2013 07:50 GMT
#227
Interesting to hear from him, but it really isn't anything we can't read on everyday basis.

I still don't think Starcraft 2's problems have much to do with strategy at all. Especially not lack in variety. Brood War strategies - especially when it comes to opening builds and early mid game - were pretty stagnant at times.

The problem with the game is the inability to express and display mechanical skill. I've watched WCS finals - the entirety of WCS finals - and there were 3 moments where I was impressed with a player - some cute moves by Taeja vs Rain, and the last was Scarlett's Drone control vs Reapers. That's it. A couple impressive moments in a whole tournament. Might have missed some because god knows they don't last very long (or have much impact on the outcome of the game).

When MC said he wanted to become a progamer by being inspired by Bisu - I can get that. Because when you watched Bisu play at his best, you see things on your screen that should not be humanly possible to execute. That you could never replicate in your games no matter how much you tried. That even other progamers couldn't reliably replicate. You see all that and you appreciate all the insane hours he put in, because you can SEE the result of hard work combined with talent combined with a professional-level training environment. So you can rightfully say "this guy is amazing, I want to play the game and be just like him".

But now watch MC play, and you see none of that. There is no insane multitasking, there is very little genuine skill on display there. You see smart new build orders and perfect timings unfold, you see excellent decision making, but that just doesn't have the same impact and doesn't feel as amazing. How many new kids can MC really inspire playing a game like that? Not as many as Bisu did, rest assured. Not because he's necessarily bad and doesn't have the potential to be great, but because the game doesn't LET HIM be great at... anything really.

When everything your game has is strategy, and when the only fun (both for players and viewers) comes from variety of strategies, of course it will be more susceptible to stagnation, imbalance, luck and randomness. Blizzard needs to tweak things all the time just to keep the game watchable, and there's no way to fix a game like that "permanently".
+
aliquis
Profile Joined September 2012
Austria38 Posts
September 02 2013 07:52 GMT
#228
I agree with Mc s opinion, and i think we will need to wait till the last expansion to see what SC2 will finally be like.

Just to remind you guys, radical changes with expansion packs have been made in past blizzard rts games
In the first and only Wc3 addon they added not only new units but completly changed the armor system, changed the upkeep system ( which was kind of the core mechanic of the whole game) they added neutral heroes and a ton of other stuff, so much you could write a whole essay about it ...they really changed the game a whole lot and for the better i dare to say.
Its to early to give up hope just yet, blizzard has done radical changes with expansions in the past maybe they will do again in the future
FetusThrower
Profile Joined August 2013
United States50 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-02 07:58:51
September 02 2013 07:56 GMT
#229
Great post by MC, thanks for translating it, Terry! Also, I like your thoughts on MC's post. I don't wanna go deep into discussing this since I've done it a hundred times over by now, but I agree with what you guys said. I really hate that whenever something is buffed/nerfed, it either becomes 100% useless/unused or it becomes overused and. It really makes SC2 a lot more boring than it could/should be, having to watch the same games over and over basically. The only real things that change are the maps and the matchups for a game. Everything else never changes.
{~Ever gotten so mad you could just throw babies?~} - Frequent twitch viewer/web personality with "sub-bronze" SC2 analysis
Aelfric
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Turkey1496 Posts
September 02 2013 08:00 GMT
#230
Blizzard just seem to be too afraid of making any bold changes unless it is a new expansion or something. They want the game to be completely broken to make that kind of a change so they stay passive like always. But from observer viewpoint it's not like what he describes watching the games to me. I mean they (progamers) play a lot of games so it may feel stagnant to them but i am just an observer and i used to be a mid-high master player but i can still enjoy the games i watch because i am not used to the styles they describe i guess.

In my case the game is declining because people like me, who has a job or social responsibilities unlike when i was just a student and had to do good in my school is that Starcraft is just not fun if you don't play it hardcore. I used to play it hardcore because i could, i could win games. Now if i want to play a game after i get back from home it is just stupid mistakes i make that pisses me off because i am way too out of practice and i don't like to see myself playing like that. The game always demands you to stay in shape if you want to stay competitive. And the game is just not fun for me if i can't stay competitive. The other reason is the game is socially lacking in 1v1 point of view which i enjoyed to play but that's the design of the game i believe it can't be fixed.

Now when i get back from work i just go play a few games of dota 2 with friends and i actually enjoy my time rather than being pissed off to myself how i lose by doing stupid mistakes. It's just this way for me, my 2 cents i guess.
Tomorrow never comes until its too late...
theking1
Profile Joined June 2013
Romania658 Posts
September 02 2013 08:00 GMT
#231
On September 02 2013 16:49 vthree wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 02 2013 16:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
I'm surprised there was no mention of TvP. As a Zerg player, this match-up is so incredibly boring to watch. Every single game it's the same damn thing and most of the time there's not a single engagement till 15th minute. I just turn off stream when there's a PvT.

On September 02 2013 13:17 hjkim1304 wrote:
On September 02 2013 12:56 Whiplash wrote:
Very good post by MC. I would love to see blizzard's honest thoughts on his post.

In my opinion, Blizzard is too big, old fashioned, and sluggish. It will never be able to act effectively enough to ever satisfy the eSports scene's needs. But with that said, Blizzard's heart is in the right place. At the end of the day, who doesn't want their product to be shown to tens of thousands of people? However, there are so many different ways that Starcraft eSports could grow, but we are too divided between the game developers, the community, and the players. We need the transparency and an effective communication system so that we can work towards a common vision. We could accomplish so much by just being on the same page, but turning to that page is just so damn hard.


Anyway, the bolded part is what I agree the most with in this thread. Blizzard needs to pick up the pace if they want for this game to survive. While Dota 2 (and I presume LoL, too) are putting out new changes on a weekly basis, SC2 has had, what, 3 minor changes in 4-5 months.



I think Dota 2 and LoL are slightly different beasts when it comes to balance. Because players aren't 'attached' to a hero like SC2 players are attached to a race and they can pick the OP heroes for themselves plus you can ban OP'ed heros.

BW was balanced around maps. But the way SC2 is designed, the map structure gives very little defensive bonus so it is hard for maps to help with balance unless they do something drastic with base locations. And most sc2 maps are built around easy to take 3rds (hard to take 3rds basically promotes 3 base all-ins), so it is quite difficult to balance small things just using maps.


there are literally 5 viable heroes in lol for each position and no progamer stirs form the meta.not to mention most of them are only good at max 3.
wptlzkwjd
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada1240 Posts
September 02 2013 08:01 GMT
#232
Mechanics in SCII is such a double edge sword. It feels so good to play it and when it's done right it's inspiring to watch but at the same time, it prevents any casual gamers from playing it more deeply compared to LoL. There is just so much physical effort playing SCII. I've played LoL and honestly enjoy playing it because it's a more relaxing atmosphere even during losing games because I have time to breathe or think.
Feel free to add me on steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/MagnusAskeland/
iloveav
Profile Joined November 2008
Poland1478 Posts
September 02 2013 08:01 GMT
#233
Interesting. I always thought that SC2 was less interesting to me than BW due to the Hard counters that unit vs unit has.

I mean, I cant outmicro marauders vs Imortals for example. Its too one sided.
In bw you could outmicro lings vs firebats. The firebat guy had the upper hand, sure, but you could do it.

In SC2, between the improven AI (so you dont ahve to babysit your units so much), and the stronger counters, the game gets too one sided if you think outside the box, making it safer to go for the same build over and over again.
aka LRM)Cats_Paw.
Adreme
Profile Joined June 2011
United States5574 Posts
September 02 2013 08:05 GMT
#234
I find it interesting that he picked TvZ but I guess that's because he could be viewed as having more objectivity if he talked about race he doesn't play.
ARze
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia45 Posts
September 02 2013 08:07 GMT
#235
MC such a boss.
UmberBane
Profile Joined March 2013
Germany5450 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-02 08:10:46
September 02 2013 08:08 GMT
#236
On September 02 2013 17:01 wptlzkwjd wrote:
Mechanics in SCII is such a double edge sword. It feels so good to play it and when it's done right it's inspiring to watch but at the same time, it prevents any casual gamers from playing it more deeply compared to LoL. There is just so much physical effort playing SCII. I've played LoL and honestly enjoy playing it because it's a more relaxing atmosphere even during losing games because I have time to breathe or think.


I always thought this was somewhat of a weak argument, though. BW's mechanics were a thousand times harder than SC2's yet it was also a thousand times more popular in Korea than SC2 is. In comparison to BW, you don't really need that much of of a physical effort for SC2, either. That's just not a cutting factor for the popularity of a game.

On September 02 2013 17:00 theking1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 02 2013 16:49 vthree wrote:
On September 02 2013 16:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
I'm surprised there was no mention of TvP. As a Zerg player, this match-up is so incredibly boring to watch. Every single game it's the same damn thing and most of the time there's not a single engagement till 15th minute. I just turn off stream when there's a PvT.

On September 02 2013 13:17 hjkim1304 wrote:
On September 02 2013 12:56 Whiplash wrote:
Very good post by MC. I would love to see blizzard's honest thoughts on his post.

In my opinion, Blizzard is too big, old fashioned, and sluggish. It will never be able to act effectively enough to ever satisfy the eSports scene's needs. But with that said, Blizzard's heart is in the right place. At the end of the day, who doesn't want their product to be shown to tens of thousands of people? However, there are so many different ways that Starcraft eSports could grow, but we are too divided between the game developers, the community, and the players. We need the transparency and an effective communication system so that we can work towards a common vision. We could accomplish so much by just being on the same page, but turning to that page is just so damn hard.


Anyway, the bolded part is what I agree the most with in this thread. Blizzard needs to pick up the pace if they want for this game to survive. While Dota 2 (and I presume LoL, too) are putting out new changes on a weekly basis, SC2 has had, what, 3 minor changes in 4-5 months.



I think Dota 2 and LoL are slightly different beasts when it comes to balance. Because players aren't 'attached' to a hero like SC2 players are attached to a race and they can pick the OP heroes for themselves plus you can ban OP'ed heros.

BW was balanced around maps. But the way SC2 is designed, the map structure gives very little defensive bonus so it is hard for maps to help with balance unless they do something drastic with base locations. And most sc2 maps are built around easy to take 3rds (hard to take 3rds basically promotes 3 base all-ins), so it is quite difficult to balance small things just using maps.


there are literally 5 viable heroes in lol for each position and no progamer stirs form the meta.not to mention most of them are only good at max 3.


In my opinion you can only judge a game by its highest level, which is of course Korea. What you just said is the equivalent of saying 4 gate is broken because it works so well in platinum. Not really a good basis to judge on.
cCav
Profile Joined July 2013
62 Posts
September 02 2013 08:14 GMT
#237
Wow thank for doing this Terry, its really interesting to see the perspective of a Korean player, especially one as well regarded as MC. Great job translating, I could hear it in MC's voice.
Ex-Clarity Gaming General Manager, Flipsid3 Tactics Team Manager @CavThinks
RobbieF
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia28 Posts
September 02 2013 08:14 GMT
#238
MC has gained a lot of respect from me after reading this. I am really refreshed to hear some responsibility being taken. Too many pro gamers and fans just want Blizzard to make the game more popular and better but it is not up to them. It is up to us to be supportive and positive and I am glad that someone like MC said it. Maybe now we can start to turn the corner were we change from being the spoilt brats of eSports to the main drivers of its success.
If only I was smart enough to write something clever.
DJHelium
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden13480 Posts
September 02 2013 08:15 GMT
#239
I think Blizzard should listen to Lalush, who has imo been spot on regarding the problems with SC2 and how it only allows for ~3 base saturation, creating a cap of economic growth in the midgame.

I feel like this is the biggest limiting factor to SC2 atm, and that it would provide some solutions to what MC is talking about here.

Some links if you're interested!

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191702
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/19sg1x/we_are_dustin_browder_alan_dabiri_and_david_kim/c8qwk2t
#1 player in the world atm: J-god | Follow me on twitter! @DJHelium
bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
September 02 2013 08:19 GMT
#240
99 times out of a 100 it really irritates me when people talk about sc2 not needing a heavier mechanical floor. It's like people forget that their opponent also has that mechanical restriction.
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