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This is the right attitude and a great post.
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On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 17:50 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 17:39 DoNuTs84 wrote:
wow point 1 about the metagame is like the exactly reason why i quitted Starcraft II. As a Zerg player it feel realllly annoying that the Terran can just stay on T1(Marines)+T2(Widowmines) while as Zerg you basically need both ground and air T3 to deal with it safely(Ultralisks+BroodLords).
Interesting that Blizzard wants to buff Ultralisks but lets be honest it not often Zerg survives the midgame and even get 1 Ultralisk out. Ultralisk buff is good but its not gonna make you survive midgame. Its more the Marine/Widowmine composition that needs to be changed.
Only thing i can come up with that can deal with Marine/Widowmine is the old WoL Infestor where its very hard to Terran to just dodge fungal. That would maybe force terran to actually make other units than BioMine.
Lets be honest again. Protoss would still crush BroodLord/Infestor in HotS(Because of Tempest and Voidrays). Terran would have a harder time beating that...but at least it would make the games interesting again. Well, terrans also need Medivacs which are critical part of sustaining the 4M push. Problem is that there is no other units once you go 4M. It is not like you can make a switch to Air like the zerg. And not sure how you feel that games with Infestor/BL were more interesting. At least with 4M, there are more engagements. Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers. Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms.
How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio.
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On September 02 2013 18:12 Lizarb wrote:
I'm just sad that JD's subpar ZvT made all this TvZ "is broken" talk happen, forcing Zerg players yet again to think that there is nothing they can change in how they play. ZvT is mainly in a bad state because Zerg players don't try something different. Scarlett did so much better vs. Bomber.
Fungal STILL stun locks units.
Blinding cloud isn't really used.
Muta is a super fast unit, hit the Terran base, don't throw 2/0 Muta at 2/2 marines with medivacs. (This is the main reason JD is 0-8 in ZvT finals.)
Try to use the swarm host for defense. Free units are good.
On bigger maps, nydus can bypass a huge distance.
I'm not saying all of these ideas will work, but not trying anything will not work either. And how easy do you think it will be as a Terran to guess what the Zerg does if you do the same thing every time?
While MC says that ultra just gets countered by marauders, and Broodlords by vikings, he forget to highlight that Zerg still can switch unit composition way faster than Terran. If you show that you intend on going ultras/Broodlords don't give the Terran 10+ mins to switch tech.
As I see it HotS mainly meant that its even harder to play now. Terran and Protoss was used to having to pick their engagements Zerg has to learn to be better at this now.
Zerg has been complaining terran since the hots beta. Life destroyed flash in an mlg finals then called the widow mine op, I don't think this has anything to do with jaedong.
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On September 02 2013 18:12 Lizarb wrote:
I'm just sad that JD's subpar ZvT made all this TvZ "is broken" talk happen, forcing Zerg players yet again to think that there is nothing they can change in how they play. ZvT is mainly in a bad state because Zerg players don't try something different. Scarlett did so much better vs. Bomber.
Fungal STILL stun locks units.
Blinding cloud isn't really used.
Muta is a super fast unit, hit the Terran base, don't throw 2/0 Muta at 2/2 marines with medivacs. (This is the main reason JD is 0-8 in ZvT finals.)
Try to use the swarm host for defense. Free units are good.
On bigger maps, nydus can bypass a huge distance.
I'm not saying all of these ideas will work, but not trying anything will not work either. And how easy do you think it will be as a Terran to guess what the Zerg does if you do the same thing every time?
While MC says that ultra just gets countered by marauders, and Broodlords by vikings, he forget to highlight that Zerg still can switch unit composition way faster than Terran. If you show that you intend on going ultras/Broodlords don't give the Terran 10+ mins to switch tech.
As I see it HotS mainly meant that its even harder to play now. Terran and Protoss was used to having to pick their engagements Zerg has to learn to be better at this now.
People started realising that TvZ was imbalanced way before Dong's losses against Bomber. We're talking about a match up where Soulkey (best zerg and zvter in the world) would look like he is winning, take a widow mine hit and proceed to lose in just about every game versus Innovation. and OKAY, innovation and Flash have exemplary TvZ, but then we see SK losing to supernova. And this is supported by the lower number of zergs in Code S etc.
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On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 17:50 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 17:39 DoNuTs84 wrote:
wow point 1 about the metagame is like the exactly reason why i quitted Starcraft II. As a Zerg player it feel realllly annoying that the Terran can just stay on T1(Marines)+T2(Widowmines) while as Zerg you basically need both ground and air T3 to deal with it safely(Ultralisks+BroodLords).
Interesting that Blizzard wants to buff Ultralisks but lets be honest it not often Zerg survives the midgame and even get 1 Ultralisk out. Ultralisk buff is good but its not gonna make you survive midgame. Its more the Marine/Widowmine composition that needs to be changed.
Only thing i can come up with that can deal with Marine/Widowmine is the old WoL Infestor where its very hard to Terran to just dodge fungal. That would maybe force terran to actually make other units than BioMine.
Lets be honest again. Protoss would still crush BroodLord/Infestor in HotS(Because of Tempest and Voidrays). Terran would have a harder time beating that...but at least it would make the games interesting again. Well, terrans also need Medivacs which are critical part of sustaining the 4M push. Problem is that there is no other units once you go 4M. It is not like you can make a switch to Air like the zerg. And not sure how you feel that games with Infestor/BL were more interesting. At least with 4M, there are more engagements. Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers. Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio.
LOL. Yes, if the zerg is stupid enough to engage straight on to that comp. ling/bling/muta also beats 4M if the terran doesn't split... Not sure how you can defend 4 bases with WM/Thor/Raven comp vs mutas...
And yes, some pros did try going mech but it didn't go too well.
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On September 02 2013 18:12 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:06 Decendos wrote:
agree 100%. blizz should really buff units that deal with mass units like infestor and viper to deal with MMMM and they should buff them so much that T cant stay on MMMM all game. but since MMMM also is the only way to really win for T they also should then buff tanks and make the transition into mech or air easier by buffing stuff like BC or raven buildtime or removing upgrades like raven energy oder BC energy upgrades, which would also fix the stalemate of TvP with MMMVG since years now. Well, vipers also hard counter tanks right now and so do infested terrans. The tank by itself is not a bad unit but there are just too many hard counters right now (both in vZ and vP).
Most ridiculous thing I ever heard.
-vikings/ghosts kill vipers.
-infested terrans can be dealed with smart placing of turrets and raven.
You don't need god-like micro or multitask for it.
2-1 mech timing can hit long before hive.
Please, don't talk nonsense about strategies pro players haven't even played yet.
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On September 02 2013 18:21 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 17:50 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 17:39 DoNuTs84 wrote:
wow point 1 about the metagame is like the exactly reason why i quitted Starcraft II. As a Zerg player it feel realllly annoying that the Terran can just stay on T1(Marines)+T2(Widowmines) while as Zerg you basically need both ground and air T3 to deal with it safely(Ultralisks+BroodLords).
Interesting that Blizzard wants to buff Ultralisks but lets be honest it not often Zerg survives the midgame and even get 1 Ultralisk out. Ultralisk buff is good but its not gonna make you survive midgame. Its more the Marine/Widowmine composition that needs to be changed.
Only thing i can come up with that can deal with Marine/Widowmine is the old WoL Infestor where its very hard to Terran to just dodge fungal. That would maybe force terran to actually make other units than BioMine.
Lets be honest again. Protoss would still crush BroodLord/Infestor in HotS(Because of Tempest and Voidrays). Terran would have a harder time beating that...but at least it would make the games interesting again. Well, terrans also need Medivacs which are critical part of sustaining the 4M push. Problem is that there is no other units once you go 4M. It is not like you can make a switch to Air like the zerg. And not sure how you feel that games with Infestor/BL were more interesting. At least with 4M, there are more engagements. Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers. Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. LOL. Yes, if the zerg is stupid enough to engage straight on to that comp. ling/bling/muta also beats 4M if the terran doesn't split... Not sure how you can defend 4 bases with WM/Thor/Raven comp vs mutas... And yes, some pros did try going mech but it didn't go too well.
vods?
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Yeah, this also struck me as the most compelling argument for SC2's problems.
In the Reddit AMA Browder says that changing the way the resource mining works would be too big of a change for HoTS. That was the perfect chance to really fix the issues and he threw it away.
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On September 02 2013 18:22 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:12 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:06 Decendos wrote:
agree 100%. blizz should really buff units that deal with mass units like infestor and viper to deal with MMMM and they should buff them so much that T cant stay on MMMM all game. but since MMMM also is the only way to really win for T they also should then buff tanks and make the transition into mech or air easier by buffing stuff like BC or raven buildtime or removing upgrades like raven energy oder BC energy upgrades, which would also fix the stalemate of TvP with MMMVG since years now. Well, vipers also hard counter tanks right now and so do infested terrans. The tank by itself is not a bad unit but there are just too many hard counters right now (both in vZ and vP). Most ridiculous thing I ever heard. -vikings/ghosts kill vipers. -infested terrans can be dealed with smart placing of turrets and raven. You don't need god-like micro or multitask for it. 2-1 mech timing can hit long before hive. Please, don't talk nonsense about strategies pro players haven't even played yet.
Please, have you watched WoL TvZ?
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On September 02 2013 18:24 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:22 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:12 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:06 Decendos wrote:
agree 100%. blizz should really buff units that deal with mass units like infestor and viper to deal with MMMM and they should buff them so much that T cant stay on MMMM all game. but since MMMM also is the only way to really win for T they also should then buff tanks and make the transition into mech or air easier by buffing stuff like BC or raven buildtime or removing upgrades like raven energy oder BC energy upgrades, which would also fix the stalemate of TvP with MMMVG since years now. Well, vipers also hard counter tanks right now and so do infested terrans. The tank by itself is not a bad unit but there are just too many hard counters right now (both in vZ and vP). Most ridiculous thing I ever heard. -vikings/ghosts kill vipers. -infested terrans can be dealed with smart placing of turrets and raven. You don't need god-like micro or multitask for it. 2-1 mech timing can hit long before hive. Please, don't talk nonsense about strategies pro players haven't even played yet. Please, have you watched WoL TvZ?
What WoL has to do with it?
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On September 02 2013 18:26 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:24 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:22 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:12 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:06 Decendos wrote:
agree 100%. blizz should really buff units that deal with mass units like infestor and viper to deal with MMMM and they should buff them so much that T cant stay on MMMM all game. but since MMMM also is the only way to really win for T they also should then buff tanks and make the transition into mech or air easier by buffing stuff like BC or raven buildtime or removing upgrades like raven energy oder BC energy upgrades, which would also fix the stalemate of TvP with MMMVG since years now. Well, vipers also hard counter tanks right now and so do infested terrans. The tank by itself is not a bad unit but there are just too many hard counters right now (both in vZ and vP). Most ridiculous thing I ever heard. -vikings/ghosts kill vipers. -infested terrans can be dealed with smart placing of turrets and raven. You don't need god-like micro or multitask for it. 2-1 mech timing can hit long before hive. Please, don't talk nonsense about strategies pro players haven't even played yet. Please, have you watched WoL TvZ? What WoL has to do with it?
Because you said buff infestors... Infestors deals with ghosts and vikings pretty well.
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On September 02 2013 18:26 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:24 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:22 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:12 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:06 Decendos wrote:
agree 100%. blizz should really buff units that deal with mass units like infestor and viper to deal with MMMM and they should buff them so much that T cant stay on MMMM all game. but since MMMM also is the only way to really win for T they also should then buff tanks and make the transition into mech or air easier by buffing stuff like BC or raven buildtime or removing upgrades like raven energy oder BC energy upgrades, which would also fix the stalemate of TvP with MMMVG since years now. Well, vipers also hard counter tanks right now and so do infested terrans. The tank by itself is not a bad unit but there are just too many hard counters right now (both in vZ and vP). Most ridiculous thing I ever heard. -vikings/ghosts kill vipers. -infested terrans can be dealed with smart placing of turrets and raven. You don't need god-like micro or multitask for it. 2-1 mech timing can hit long before hive. Please, don't talk nonsense about strategies pro players haven't even played yet. Please, have you watched WoL TvZ? What WoL has to do with it?
Sorry, but you are completely wrong with Vikings/Ghosts solving issues with Viper while going mech. Either get your facts together or stop speaking your ass off.
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Broodwar is far superior to SC2. i knew it already and thats what i got from this post as well. Blizzard needs to do an overhaul with the next expansion to salvage the BW legacy. this game just doesnt cut it in its current form / shape.
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I feel like SC2 would be a much better esport if it were a free to play game. The need to sell copies introduces a problem for an esport because there is too great an incentive to make a game too accessible and lower the skill ceiling (e.g. HALO and Call of Duty). The need to increase the maximum potential amount of sales by introducing expansions and/or sequels has another major drawback; a disincentive to create a complex meta game that doesn't need to last longer than one to two years and renders a large proportion of a player's game knowledge worthless after every new release. There is a further incentive to introduce randomness to the game that allows for a lesser skilled player to be able to be successful on occasion and convince themselves that they are talented(Call of Duty is one of the biggest perpetrators of this concept through auto aim and kill streaks); most players are capable of taking a game off of a professional player with a cheesy all in, no casual player will ever ever ever take a set off of a professional tennis player or beat a professional unreal tournament player.
In a free to play game, it is much easier to get a lot more people to try your game because of the lack of a monetary investment for them to do so. Instead of making a game that is easy and accessible to everyone, you can focus on making a complex game with a very high skill ceiling that is much more targeted to your specific audience; you won't retain as many players percentage wise, but you can get the game in front of a lot more people and the ones that stay will be much more loyal. Additionally, you can create a very complex game that takes a long time to figure out. It is very easy to create a game with so many viable choices that no player could possibly try every combination of decisions in a lifetime. You can create a strong core of viable strategies that most players will learn and allow room for players to innovate and change the way the game is played.
Starcraft needs a lot more units per race and a stronger defenders advantage to allow for looser timings where a pro player will need to defend against a timing they potentially have never seen before, but have enough knowledge of the game to be able to conceive of a proper defense for it. Alternatively, die to it being caught off guard by an innovative player instead of missing a pylon by a hair's width or flipping a coin on a build order choice. It needs better choices to block certain strategies, where players are forced to be able to play more than one style per match up to be successful and produce more variation between matches. It's needs a more stable early game where mistakes can build up and influence a player's position in the mid and late game without outright deciding the game.
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This is why I Feel League of Legends is the new BW.
BW is by far my favorite game of all time. It's a game full of small battles throughout the game. Rarely do you see max armies vs max armies aka SC2 before a big fight happens.
This is why League is similar to BW to koreans. From the start there is always little battles that impact the final fight. SC2 is No rush 15 than a 2 second boring fight, GG. This is where the SC2 team should start. STOP NERFING EARLY AND MID GAME UNITS FROM EVERY RACE. I mean for the first 10 minutes SC2 is the worst game to watch. Nothing happens. Ever. BW there are skirmishes and micro battles. League/dota has all in's level 3/4 which is 4 mins in.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, LISTEN TO MC/PRO KOREANS. Why are you guys making this game a nr 15... than one fight, GG??? I swear, if they port over BW over to sc2.. people would not complain.
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I'm a zerg and i also find it quite frustraiting that you never have to transition out of marine+mines+medivacs.. Just throw in a few vikings if they even manage to get broods and get marauders if they go ultralisks..
I'm a gold Zerg so i can't really know if the changes can impact the game in such a way.
Since mines aren't really important in TvT and TvP(except for harrassment):
- remove the upgrade for mines (they are slower and easier to deal with)
- remove it's air attack (better for broods, vipers, overlords, overseers and MUTAS)
- make them a little less efective with their damage
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On September 02 2013 18:30 Malphite wrote:
This is why I Feel League of Legends is the new BW.
Good one.. :D
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i just love him and i am so happy i met him personally and had the chance to hang out with him 
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On September 02 2013 18:28 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:26 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:24 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:22 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:12 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:06 Decendos wrote:
agree 100%. blizz should really buff units that deal with mass units like infestor and viper to deal with MMMM and they should buff them so much that T cant stay on MMMM all game. but since MMMM also is the only way to really win for T they also should then buff tanks and make the transition into mech or air easier by buffing stuff like BC or raven buildtime or removing upgrades like raven energy oder BC energy upgrades, which would also fix the stalemate of TvP with MMMVG since years now. Well, vipers also hard counter tanks right now and so do infested terrans. The tank by itself is not a bad unit but there are just too many hard counters right now (both in vZ and vP). Most ridiculous thing I ever heard. -vikings/ghosts kill vipers. -infested terrans can be dealed with smart placing of turrets and raven. You don't need god-like micro or multitask for it. 2-1 mech timing can hit long before hive. Please, don't talk nonsense about strategies pro players haven't even played yet. Please, have you watched WoL TvZ? What WoL has to do with it? Because you said buff infestors... Infestors deals with ghosts and vikings pretty well.
First of all I didn't say buff infestors, but I'm not against it.
Secondly, Ghosts can snipe and emp infestors. Tanks are good vs infestors. If I remember it correctly siege and HSM upgrades were removed. armor for air and ground were merged. Helbats are added. Thors have a better weapon to fight air. Banshees are easily accessible now. So much things changed from WoL. Just because terrans are lazy to split and leapfrog with tanks doesn't mean mech is not viable. biomine is so good that mech is not even considered, but you can't use mech to run around like stimpacked MMM.
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On September 02 2013 18:29 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:26 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:24 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:22 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:12 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:06 Decendos wrote:
agree 100%. blizz should really buff units that deal with mass units like infestor and viper to deal with MMMM and they should buff them so much that T cant stay on MMMM all game. but since MMMM also is the only way to really win for T they also should then buff tanks and make the transition into mech or air easier by buffing stuff like BC or raven buildtime or removing upgrades like raven energy oder BC energy upgrades, which would also fix the stalemate of TvP with MMMVG since years now. Well, vipers also hard counter tanks right now and so do infested terrans. The tank by itself is not a bad unit but there are just too many hard counters right now (both in vZ and vP). Most ridiculous thing I ever heard. -vikings/ghosts kill vipers. -infested terrans can be dealed with smart placing of turrets and raven. You don't need god-like micro or multitask for it. 2-1 mech timing can hit long before hive. Please, don't talk nonsense about strategies pro players haven't even played yet. Please, have you watched WoL TvZ? What WoL has to do with it? Sorry, but you are completely wrong with Vikings/Ghosts solving issues with Viper while going mech. Either get your facts together or stop speaking your ass off.
Mind your speech, we're in civilized world. If we are on facts then tell me why exactly I'm wrong with Vikings/ghosts? Have you got any replays/vods it not working? Or is it your assumption?
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EPT
