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If anything, ravens' HSM is a better answer than both vikings and ghosts, and more versatile.
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4713 Posts
On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 17:50 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 17:39 DoNuTs84 wrote:
wow point 1 about the metagame is like the exactly reason why i quitted Starcraft II. As a Zerg player it feel realllly annoying that the Terran can just stay on T1(Marines)+T2(Widowmines) while as Zerg you basically need both ground and air T3 to deal with it safely(Ultralisks+BroodLords).
Interesting that Blizzard wants to buff Ultralisks but lets be honest it not often Zerg survives the midgame and even get 1 Ultralisk out. Ultralisk buff is good but its not gonna make you survive midgame. Its more the Marine/Widowmine composition that needs to be changed.
Only thing i can come up with that can deal with Marine/Widowmine is the old WoL Infestor where its very hard to Terran to just dodge fungal. That would maybe force terran to actually make other units than BioMine.
Lets be honest again. Protoss would still crush BroodLord/Infestor in HotS(Because of Tempest and Voidrays). Terran would have a harder time beating that...but at least it would make the games interesting again. Well, terrans also need Medivacs which are critical part of sustaining the 4M push. Problem is that there is no other units once you go 4M. It is not like you can make a switch to Air like the zerg. And not sure how you feel that games with Infestor/BL were more interesting. At least with 4M, there are more engagements. Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers. Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio.
This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass.
Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable.
And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers.
Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding.
If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those.
The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed.
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On September 02 2013 18:38 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:29 Everlong wrote:On September 02 2013 18:26 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:24 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:22 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:12 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:06 Decendos wrote:
agree 100%. blizz should really buff units that deal with mass units like infestor and viper to deal with MMMM and they should buff them so much that T cant stay on MMMM all game. but since MMMM also is the only way to really win for T they also should then buff tanks and make the transition into mech or air easier by buffing stuff like BC or raven buildtime or removing upgrades like raven energy oder BC energy upgrades, which would also fix the stalemate of TvP with MMMVG since years now. Well, vipers also hard counter tanks right now and so do infested terrans. The tank by itself is not a bad unit but there are just too many hard counters right now (both in vZ and vP). Most ridiculous thing I ever heard. -vikings/ghosts kill vipers. -infested terrans can be dealed with smart placing of turrets and raven. You don't need god-like micro or multitask for it. 2-1 mech timing can hit long before hive. Please, don't talk nonsense about strategies pro players haven't even played yet. Please, have you watched WoL TvZ? What WoL has to do with it? Sorry, but you are completely wrong with Vikings/Ghosts solving issues with Viper while going mech. Either get your facts together or stop speaking your ass off. Mind your speech, we're in civilized world. If we are on facts then tell me why exactly I'm wrong with Vikings/ghosts? Have you got any replays/vods it not working? Or is it your assumption?
Alright, we can have a serious discussion. But please, make sure you know what you are talking about. To start it off, I will answer your question.
No, I don't have any replays/vods where Terran gets Ghosts to counter Vipers. Vikings do the job just fine, but it is not solving the issue with Viper. We might get to this later.
Now, my question.
Do you have any replays/vods where it actually does work?
P.S: "we're in civilized world" - I'm not sure I agree with that, but that is another discussion.
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Really interesting thoughts. On a positive note, I like his opinion on current PvZ 
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On September 02 2013 18:30 Malphite wrote:
This is why I Feel League of Legends is the new BW.
BW is by far my favorite game of all time. It's a game full of small battles throughout the game. Rarely do you see max armies vs max armies aka SC2 before a big fight happens.
This is why League is similar to BW to koreans. From the start there is always little battles that impact the final fight. SC2 is No rush 15 than a 2 second boring fight, GG. This is where the SC2 team should start. STOP NERFING EARLY AND MID GAME UNITS FROM EVERY RACE. I mean for the first 10 minutes SC2 is the worst game to watch. Nothing happens. Ever. BW there are skirmishes and micro battles. League/dota has all in's level 3/4 which is 4 mins in.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, LISTEN TO MC/PRO KOREANS. Why are you guys making this game a nr 15... than one fight, GG??? I swear, if they port over BW over to sc2.. people would not complain.
Thank you, this post made my day. Havent had a good laugh like that in weeks.
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On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 17:50 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 17:39 DoNuTs84 wrote:
wow point 1 about the metagame is like the exactly reason why i quitted Starcraft II. As a Zerg player it feel realllly annoying that the Terran can just stay on T1(Marines)+T2(Widowmines) while as Zerg you basically need both ground and air T3 to deal with it safely(Ultralisks+BroodLords).
Interesting that Blizzard wants to buff Ultralisks but lets be honest it not often Zerg survives the midgame and even get 1 Ultralisk out. Ultralisk buff is good but its not gonna make you survive midgame. Its more the Marine/Widowmine composition that needs to be changed.
Only thing i can come up with that can deal with Marine/Widowmine is the old WoL Infestor where its very hard to Terran to just dodge fungal. That would maybe force terran to actually make other units than BioMine.
Lets be honest again. Protoss would still crush BroodLord/Infestor in HotS(Because of Tempest and Voidrays). Terran would have a harder time beating that...but at least it would make the games interesting again. Well, terrans also need Medivacs which are critical part of sustaining the 4M push. Problem is that there is no other units once you go 4M. It is not like you can make a switch to Air like the zerg. And not sure how you feel that games with Infestor/BL were more interesting. At least with 4M, there are more engagements. Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers. Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio.
Mech was often used in WoL. Do you really think that when HotS came every pro who used mech thought: "Well lets completely ignore mech and go play bio and not see if we can make mech work"? Of course not. They tried it, others tried it, but the facts simply are that there have been so many buffs against mech that it simply is way worse than 4M.
It already starts with mutas. Look at any 4M player who isn't agressive enough: he will lose to mutas raiding the crap out of him. For 4M the solution is simple, you simply keep attacking so he can't use mutas against you. And if he does you always have a bunch of marines popping out. The muta numbers shouldn't be too high, simply because you are always attacking.
Now go to mech. You cannot keep attacking since you cannot quickly replace a lost mech army, and a mech army cannot retreat if the zerg doesn't want you to retreat. That means you cannot play as agressive, and you will face a large muta ball that keeps raiding you. In WoL you had thors, two good shots of thors and you were happy, since his muta ball was now weaker. In HotS 10 seconds later they are back to full health.
Then we have swarmhosts which can really abuse the immobility of mech while being way more mobile themselves. Ultras which now go right through any kind of hellion meatshield (hellbats being bit stronger doesn't compensate for the way higher ultra attack vs them), and last but not least, the viper ruining the day of mech, and especially tanks. And no a few vikings don't change that. Even if you have 10 vikings, only a few blinding clouds need to land to screw over the mech army.
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On September 02 2013 18:34 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:30 Malphite wrote:
This is why I Feel League of Legends is the new BW.
Good one.. :D
If you solely look at Korea there are very good points you can make for it. There are actually many people that love Korean BW to death and also Korean LoL, but were disappointed with SC2. Especially for Koreans themselves this often seems to be the case. It's never ever black and white, just sayin'. I'd rather like if we could be a bit more humble about SC2 as a game so we can actually get into a position to get shit done and make it work again. Of course statements like he did are naturally going to get a lot of strong reactions on TL, so I don't blame you specifically for it. Just saying that we might should try and be more humble.
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On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 17:50 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 17:39 DoNuTs84 wrote:
wow point 1 about the metagame is like the exactly reason why i quitted Starcraft II. As a Zerg player it feel realllly annoying that the Terran can just stay on T1(Marines)+T2(Widowmines) while as Zerg you basically need both ground and air T3 to deal with it safely(Ultralisks+BroodLords).
Interesting that Blizzard wants to buff Ultralisks but lets be honest it not often Zerg survives the midgame and even get 1 Ultralisk out. Ultralisk buff is good but its not gonna make you survive midgame. Its more the Marine/Widowmine composition that needs to be changed.
Only thing i can come up with that can deal with Marine/Widowmine is the old WoL Infestor where its very hard to Terran to just dodge fungal. That would maybe force terran to actually make other units than BioMine.
Lets be honest again. Protoss would still crush BroodLord/Infestor in HotS(Because of Tempest and Voidrays). Terran would have a harder time beating that...but at least it would make the games interesting again. Well, terrans also need Medivacs which are critical part of sustaining the 4M push. Problem is that there is no other units once you go 4M. It is not like you can make a switch to Air like the zerg. And not sure how you feel that games with Infestor/BL were more interesting. At least with 4M, there are more engagements. Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers. Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed.
MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions.
Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations.
If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out.
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Thanks for translating!
MC really is a boss, well thought post.
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On September 02 2013 18:35 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:28 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:26 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:24 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:22 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:12 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:06 Decendos wrote:
agree 100%. blizz should really buff units that deal with mass units like infestor and viper to deal with MMMM and they should buff them so much that T cant stay on MMMM all game. but since MMMM also is the only way to really win for T they also should then buff tanks and make the transition into mech or air easier by buffing stuff like BC or raven buildtime or removing upgrades like raven energy oder BC energy upgrades, which would also fix the stalemate of TvP with MMMVG since years now. Well, vipers also hard counter tanks right now and so do infested terrans. The tank by itself is not a bad unit but there are just too many hard counters right now (both in vZ and vP). Most ridiculous thing I ever heard. -vikings/ghosts kill vipers. -infested terrans can be dealed with smart placing of turrets and raven. You don't need god-like micro or multitask for it. 2-1 mech timing can hit long before hive. Please, don't talk nonsense about strategies pro players haven't even played yet. Please, have you watched WoL TvZ? What WoL has to do with it? Because you said buff infestors... Infestors deals with ghosts and vikings pretty well. First of all I didn't say buff infestors, but I'm not against it. Secondly, Ghosts can snipe and emp infestors. Tanks are good vs infestors. If I remember it correctly siege and HSM upgrades were removed. armor for air and ground were merged. Helbats are added. Thors have a better weapon to fight air. Banshees are easily accessible now. So much things changed from WoL. Just because terrans are lazy to split and leapfrog with tanks doesn't mean mech is not viable. biomine is so good that mech is not even considered, but you can't use mech to run around like stimpacked MMM.
And you just pointed out the key issue with mech. Mech gives up a SO much mobility and get very little in return. Even in straight up fight, it is at best even. WoL showed us that ghosts and tanks cannot match pre-nerf infestors. Hellbats were added and then nerfed. One of the core issues with mech is that you have very little map control.
And if you think terrans are too lazy to split and leapfrog. What do you think they are doing now? They are splitting bio and leap frogging WMs. They didn't do that with tanks is that it simply wasn't good because once you got on creep, the zerg would come in from 2 angles and the tanks got 1 shot off before the zerg got into melee range. Basically the WM is doing as much damage as the tank (1 shot) but costs significantly less. Bomber showed that you can mix tanks in but you still need WMs to kill the first wave.
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On September 02 2013 18:50 UmberBane wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:34 Everlong wrote:On September 02 2013 18:30 Malphite wrote:
This is why I Feel League of Legends is the new BW.
Good one.. :D If you solely look at Korea there are very good points you can make for it. There are actually many people that love Korean BW to death and also Korean LoL, but were disappointed with SC2. Especially for Koreans themselves this often seems to be the case. It's never ever black and white, just sayin'. I'd rather like if we could be a bit more humble about SC2 as a game so we can actually get into a position to get shit done and make it work again.
I agree with you. It just sounds so funny to say something like this. I'm all for being humble. But it doesn't help that game developers are forcing you to just squeeze all the juice from this game and have no long-term plan involving strategy/depth, etc.. You know what I mean?
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On September 02 2013 18:47 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:38 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:29 Everlong wrote:On September 02 2013 18:26 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:24 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:22 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:12 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:06 Decendos wrote:
agree 100%. blizz should really buff units that deal with mass units like infestor and viper to deal with MMMM and they should buff them so much that T cant stay on MMMM all game. but since MMMM also is the only way to really win for T they also should then buff tanks and make the transition into mech or air easier by buffing stuff like BC or raven buildtime or removing upgrades like raven energy oder BC energy upgrades, which would also fix the stalemate of TvP with MMMVG since years now. Well, vipers also hard counter tanks right now and so do infested terrans. The tank by itself is not a bad unit but there are just too many hard counters right now (both in vZ and vP). Most ridiculous thing I ever heard. -vikings/ghosts kill vipers. -infested terrans can be dealed with smart placing of turrets and raven. You don't need god-like micro or multitask for it. 2-1 mech timing can hit long before hive. Please, don't talk nonsense about strategies pro players haven't even played yet. Please, have you watched WoL TvZ? What WoL has to do with it? Sorry, but you are completely wrong with Vikings/Ghosts solving issues with Viper while going mech. Either get your facts together or stop speaking your ass off. Mind your speech, we're in civilized world. If we are on facts then tell me why exactly I'm wrong with Vikings/ghosts? Have you got any replays/vods it not working? Or is it your assumption? Alright, we can have a serious discussion. But please, make sure you know what you are talking about. To start it off, I will answer your question. No, I don't have any replays/vods where Terran gets Ghosts to counter Vipers. Vikings do the job just fine, but it is not solving the issue with Viper. We might get to this later. Now, my question. Do you have any replays/vods where it actually does work? P.S: "we're in civilized world" - I'm not sure I agree with that, but that is another discussion.
Let me tell you from the beginning. Someone told "mech is unviable, thats why terran uses 4M only". I contradicted and said mech is unexplored area and its possibly viable. Its only assumption, theorycrafting. But my original point is its not proven if mech is unviable. Therefore, its you, who supposed to prove it. Since I'm not claiming anything 100%.
P.S: Everyone lives in a world he thinks he lives in.
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MC together with a whole bunch of pros knows that the popularity of SC2 is declining, and I fear that there is nothing that we as a community can do about it. Those who are faithful will remain, the ones with diminishing interest have or will leave the scene.
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On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 17:50 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 17:39 DoNuTs84 wrote:
wow point 1 about the metagame is like the exactly reason why i quitted Starcraft II. As a Zerg player it feel realllly annoying that the Terran can just stay on T1(Marines)+T2(Widowmines) while as Zerg you basically need both ground and air T3 to deal with it safely(Ultralisks+BroodLords).
Interesting that Blizzard wants to buff Ultralisks but lets be honest it not often Zerg survives the midgame and even get 1 Ultralisk out. Ultralisk buff is good but its not gonna make you survive midgame. Its more the Marine/Widowmine composition that needs to be changed.
Only thing i can come up with that can deal with Marine/Widowmine is the old WoL Infestor where its very hard to Terran to just dodge fungal. That would maybe force terran to actually make other units than BioMine.
Lets be honest again. Protoss would still crush BroodLord/Infestor in HotS(Because of Tempest and Voidrays). Terran would have a harder time beating that...but at least it would make the games interesting again. Well, terrans also need Medivacs which are critical part of sustaining the 4M push. Problem is that there is no other units once you go 4M. It is not like you can make a switch to Air like the zerg. And not sure how you feel that games with Infestor/BL were more interesting. At least with 4M, there are more engagements. Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers. Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out.
And what are those crapton of ravens going to do exactly? If you are going to SM swarmhosts until they are all gone you better have alot of patience. Especially since meanwhile all your buildings are dying due to locusts. Don't say you have siege tanks for that, you won't have enough siege tanks to stop them if you have a crapton of ravens. Not to mention what happens when he brings out the ultras. Also going to SM the ultras?
Also zergs pretty well figured out how to counter hellbat drops. The issue for them was the really early ones. But if you want to go heavy on hellbat drops they simply place 3 spines and two spores per base and your hellbats wont do anything. Or if they went into muta first before SH transition they simply intercept all your hellbat drops.
Many tried out mech in HotS. Mech was used quite a bit in WoL, in HotS with hellbat added and armor upgrade merged enough tried it out against zerg. But the boosts for zerg against mech are simply too large.
I contradicted and said mech is unexplored area and its possibly viable
And there you are wrong.
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Very interesting read, thanks for the translation. Wonder how Korean pro's have reacted to section 2? Backlash or not?
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On September 02 2013 18:59 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 17:50 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 17:39 DoNuTs84 wrote:
wow point 1 about the metagame is like the exactly reason why i quitted Starcraft II. As a Zerg player it feel realllly annoying that the Terran can just stay on T1(Marines)+T2(Widowmines) while as Zerg you basically need both ground and air T3 to deal with it safely(Ultralisks+BroodLords).
Interesting that Blizzard wants to buff Ultralisks but lets be honest it not often Zerg survives the midgame and even get 1 Ultralisk out. Ultralisk buff is good but its not gonna make you survive midgame. Its more the Marine/Widowmine composition that needs to be changed.
Only thing i can come up with that can deal with Marine/Widowmine is the old WoL Infestor where its very hard to Terran to just dodge fungal. That would maybe force terran to actually make other units than BioMine.
Lets be honest again. Protoss would still crush BroodLord/Infestor in HotS(Because of Tempest and Voidrays). Terran would have a harder time beating that...but at least it would make the games interesting again. Well, terrans also need Medivacs which are critical part of sustaining the 4M push. Problem is that there is no other units once you go 4M. It is not like you can make a switch to Air like the zerg. And not sure how you feel that games with Infestor/BL were more interesting. At least with 4M, there are more engagements. Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers. Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. And what are those crapton of ravens going to do exactly? If you are going to SM swarmhosts until they are all gone you better have alot of patience. Especially since meanwhile all your buildings are dying due to locusts. Don't say you have siege tanks for that, you won't have enough siege tanks to stop them if you have a crapton of ravens. Not to mention what happens when he brings out the ultras. Also going to SM the ultras? Also zergs pretty well figured out how to counter hellbat drops. The issue for them was the really early ones. But if you want to go heavy on hellbat drops they simply place 3 spines and two spores per base and your hellbats wont do anything. Or if they went into muta first before SH transition they simply intercept all your hellbat drops. Many tried out mech in HotS. Mech was used quite a bit in WoL, in HotS with hellbat added and armor upgrade merged enough tried it out against zerg. But the boosts for zerg against mech are simply too large. And there you are wrong.
You're wrong. Can't you add a couple of banshees to kill off swarmhosts?
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TvZ & PvT has been un-entertaining for a while now (e.g, mine-into-gg and mass EMPs over the protoss army).
Blizzard needs to be bold and make unpopular bold patches to the game - and throw their O-so-comforting statistics about why the game is balance out the window.
I also hope professionals be more frank about the game and it's meta, to follow in MC's and Idra's footsteps.
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4713 Posts
On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 17:50 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 17:39 DoNuTs84 wrote:
wow point 1 about the metagame is like the exactly reason why i quitted Starcraft II. As a Zerg player it feel realllly annoying that the Terran can just stay on T1(Marines)+T2(Widowmines) while as Zerg you basically need both ground and air T3 to deal with it safely(Ultralisks+BroodLords).
Interesting that Blizzard wants to buff Ultralisks but lets be honest it not often Zerg survives the midgame and even get 1 Ultralisk out. Ultralisk buff is good but its not gonna make you survive midgame. Its more the Marine/Widowmine composition that needs to be changed.
Only thing i can come up with that can deal with Marine/Widowmine is the old WoL Infestor where its very hard to Terran to just dodge fungal. That would maybe force terran to actually make other units than BioMine.
Lets be honest again. Protoss would still crush BroodLord/Infestor in HotS(Because of Tempest and Voidrays). Terran would have a harder time beating that...but at least it would make the games interesting again. Well, terrans also need Medivacs which are critical part of sustaining the 4M push. Problem is that there is no other units once you go 4M. It is not like you can make a switch to Air like the zerg. And not sure how you feel that games with Infestor/BL were more interesting. At least with 4M, there are more engagements. Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers. Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out.
For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring.
Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push.
Edit2: I should really stop posting balance related stuff here, its a topic regarding MC's thoughts, not regarding mech or balance.
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Thank you hjkim1304 for translating!!!
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On September 02 2013 19:01 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:59 Sissors wrote:On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 17:50 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 17:39 DoNuTs84 wrote:
wow point 1 about the metagame is like the exactly reason why i quitted Starcraft II. As a Zerg player it feel realllly annoying that the Terran can just stay on T1(Marines)+T2(Widowmines) while as Zerg you basically need both ground and air T3 to deal with it safely(Ultralisks+BroodLords).
Interesting that Blizzard wants to buff Ultralisks but lets be honest it not often Zerg survives the midgame and even get 1 Ultralisk out. Ultralisk buff is good but its not gonna make you survive midgame. Its more the Marine/Widowmine composition that needs to be changed.
Only thing i can come up with that can deal with Marine/Widowmine is the old WoL Infestor where its very hard to Terran to just dodge fungal. That would maybe force terran to actually make other units than BioMine.
Lets be honest again. Protoss would still crush BroodLord/Infestor in HotS(Because of Tempest and Voidrays). Terran would have a harder time beating that...but at least it would make the games interesting again. Well, terrans also need Medivacs which are critical part of sustaining the 4M push. Problem is that there is no other units once you go 4M. It is not like you can make a switch to Air like the zerg. And not sure how you feel that games with Infestor/BL were more interesting. At least with 4M, there are more engagements. Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers. Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. And what are those crapton of ravens going to do exactly? If you are going to SM swarmhosts until they are all gone you better have alot of patience. Especially since meanwhile all your buildings are dying due to locusts. Don't say you have siege tanks for that, you won't have enough siege tanks to stop them if you have a crapton of ravens. Not to mention what happens when he brings out the ultras. Also going to SM the ultras? Also zergs pretty well figured out how to counter hellbat drops. The issue for them was the really early ones. But if you want to go heavy on hellbat drops they simply place 3 spines and two spores per base and your hellbats wont do anything. Or if they went into muta first before SH transition they simply intercept all your hellbat drops. Many tried out mech in HotS. Mech was used quite a bit in WoL, in HotS with hellbat added and armor upgrade merged enough tried it out against zerg. But the boosts for zerg against mech are simply too large. I contradicted and said mech is unexplored area and its possibly viable And there you are wrong. You're wrong. Can't you add a couple of banshees to kill off swarmhosts?
Mech terrans are already gas starved. Considering the macro unit for zerg (Queens) plus one overseers can easily deal with banshees. That is why you don't see banshees as a core unit. They just aren't cost effective after the early game in engagement unless you have killed all the anti-air (like in mech TvT where you have air control).
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EPT
