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On September 02 2013 19:54 Slydie wrote:
I would love to use tanks rather than mines in tvz, but they are just too weak, and the maps are too big.
4m is perfectly beatable by good zergs. That is where the exploring is happening now, Scarlett just gave a strong pointer in the right direction at WCS.
I hate that ppl talk about 4m as some a-move op strat! It is really hard to execute, just take a look at the difference from Maru to INnoVation. Mine positions, marinesplits, drops, drop escapes, macro... the skill cap is way up there, and of course the zergs should have to play equally fantastic to beat it.
The problems remains whether it's beatable or not: the matchup became really stagnant and boring to watch. It can't be argued that every TvZ right now looks very similar, and about that he is surely right. From a viewer's perspective now is like the first time in SC2 were I would almost say that PvZ is more interesting to watch than TvZ because at least there's a way bigger variety of unit comps and builds.
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I think we all needed to hear this. MC is incredibly respected as both a player and a human being and I hope he continues being the badass he is. In addition, I do think that a lot lg what we say goes unanswered by Blizzard since we have no idea whether or not they are listening. If they would give us a tweet, or email, or a fucking letter carved in stone I don't really care. But the face of the matter is, all the theory crafting we do, all the balance that we try to analyze, all that we do balance wise goes FUCKING NOWHERE!
If blizzard had made some TL accounts and taken a look at how the communinity felt back in 2012 with BL infestor and now with HOTS we wouldn't be in this mess of TvX.
Please excuse my ramble. I've been holding that in since that rumor mill thread was created.
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Thank you so much for the translation!
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On September 02 2013 19:51 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 19:40 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:29 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:
[quote]
Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers.
Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with. Dropping helbats onto swarmhosts works pretty well. Can't remember players, but it was a highlevel game. But you will have some roach/hydra or muta too (you don't need a lot, 20 supply of them) with swarm hosts which shuts down dropping onto swarm hosts very well. That's simply where ground mech stops working, but Skycompositions are still too far away to get going at that point imo. Not to mention that the Zerg is very often one step ahead of you in terms of skycompositions from a mutalisk or hydralisk midgame + having the vipers to pull skyunits one by one, which means you need quite some vikings first, before you can even start to add in the AtG units to counter the swarm hosts. The solution is just to make Viper/Swarm Host more even with ground Mech in itself by changing blinding cloud. Zerg can simply drop helbats into your base while you're sieging his natural. How you're gonna defend it?
A few spines do that fine. And if needed a few mutas running around to kill the medivacs.
Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 19:45 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 17:50 vthree wrote:
[quote]
Well, terrans also need Medivacs which are critical part of sustaining the 4M push. Problem is that there is no other units once you go 4M. It is not like you can make a switch to Air like the zerg. And not sure how you feel that games with Infestor/BL were more interesting. At least with 4M, there are more engagements.
Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers. Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with. I don't think it is as simple as looking at unit comps in straight up fights. Even if mech CAN win a 200/200 engagement with the right comp. The immobility of mech up to that points means you are going to be on 3 bases (4th is too hard to defend from mutas/runbys). The zerg is likely on 5 bases with bank and larvae. Even IF you win a fight, unless you retain like 60% of your units, you just can't rebuild you army like the zerg. That is why in WoL, Mvp was famous for going mainly mech on 1 map. The map which had 2 chokes leading to 5 bases where he could use planetaries to defend those chokes with tanks behind. Imagine if you are Protoss with out blink stalkers and storms that can be magic boxed. And see how you can deal with mutas. That is the issue that the mech player faces in the mid game with mutas. Except that widow mines are added specifically to defend from runbys and muta harass. WoL analogy is quite irrelevant now.
Yes except that doesn't work. The amount of mines you would need to defend muta harass is staggering and completely not viable. Sure once in a while you will pick off a muta with a mine, but you already need to group widow mines and turrets to even have a chance a widow mine fires.
Also your idea of using banshees in midgame is simply bad. On the list of worst units in game banshees are fairly high. Cheaper cloak allowed some more early game shenanigans with banshees, but midgame and later they are still pointless. Put 3 spores around your swarmhosts and they are fine. Sure you can then get 10 banshees to break through that. And then you autolose to the first zerg techswitch.
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Thanks for the translation.
Just yesterday I was talking about this issue in TvZ and I have to say, he almost paraphrased me :D.
I think that shows that most issues are rather obvious, though hard to fix.
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I so much agree with the mines problem. Mines are too strong, and as he said : theorically it's not if you micro perfectly, but it's not possible to micro perfectly during a whole game while terran can do several mistakes, zerg can't do any.
I also think that MC is telling really interesting about how to act as a programmer.
But I am a bit sad when I read this, because I went to GAMESCOM watching the WCS Season 2 finals during the friday, and the only person I wasn't able to reach was him because he directly left after his games (and he was playing early in the day, not even being tired or something).
Luckily, I was able to get an autograph from all the players/casters I wished on my TL mousepad, but I also really wanted to see (I'm Protoss) MC and he just left so fast.
Well, luckily, I finally had a picture with Apollo, JD and Grubby as a bonus, but I still think that MC should have stay at least 1-2 hours if he really wanted to act as professional gamer.
Talking about that, Grubby was the one acting the more like a "pro", I clearly understand why he is having such a huge fan base.
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On September 02 2013 20:04 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 19:51 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 19:40 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:29 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:
[quote]
What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms.
How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with. Dropping helbats onto swarmhosts works pretty well. Can't remember players, but it was a highlevel game. But you will have some roach/hydra or muta too (you don't need a lot, 20 supply of them) with swarm hosts which shuts down dropping onto swarm hosts very well. That's simply where ground mech stops working, but Skycompositions are still too far away to get going at that point imo. Not to mention that the Zerg is very often one step ahead of you in terms of skycompositions from a mutalisk or hydralisk midgame + having the vipers to pull skyunits one by one, which means you need quite some vikings first, before you can even start to add in the AtG units to counter the swarm hosts. The solution is just to make Viper/Swarm Host more even with ground Mech in itself by changing blinding cloud. Zerg can simply drop helbats into your base while you're sieging his natural. How you're gonna defend it? A few spines do that fine. And if needed a few mutas running around to kill the medivacs. Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 19:45 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:
[quote]
Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers.
Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with. I don't think it is as simple as looking at unit comps in straight up fights. Even if mech CAN win a 200/200 engagement with the right comp. The immobility of mech up to that points means you are going to be on 3 bases (4th is too hard to defend from mutas/runbys). The zerg is likely on 5 bases with bank and larvae. Even IF you win a fight, unless you retain like 60% of your units, you just can't rebuild you army like the zerg. That is why in WoL, Mvp was famous for going mainly mech on 1 map. The map which had 2 chokes leading to 5 bases where he could use planetaries to defend those chokes with tanks behind. Imagine if you are Protoss with out blink stalkers and storms that can be magic boxed. And see how you can deal with mutas. That is the issue that the mech player faces in the mid game with mutas. Except that widow mines are added specifically to defend from runbys and muta harass. WoL analogy is quite irrelevant now. Yes except that doesn't work. The amount of mines you would need to defend muta harass is staggering and completely not viable. Sure once in a while you will pick off a muta with a mine, but you already need to group widow mines and turrets to even have a chance a widow mine fires. Also your idea of using banshees in midgame is simply bad. On the list of worst units in game banshees are fairly high. Cheaper cloak allowed some more early game shenanigans with banshees, but midgame and later they are still pointless. Put 3 spores around your swarmhosts and they are fine. Sure you can then get 10 banshees to break through that. And then you autolose to the first zerg techswitch.
Ok, I'm trying to imagine your theory on mech tvz. Apparently, there are crapton of swarmhosts with vipers at your base, nearly 20 hydralisks to back it up. ~10 mutalisks are harassing your expansions, since few can't kill WM and turrets. Zerg base is covered with spines and spores. zerglings are running by everywhere. Is it platinum level you're talking about?
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On September 02 2013 19:51 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 19:40 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:29 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:
[quote]
Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers.
Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with. Dropping helbats onto swarmhosts works pretty well. Can't remember players, but it was a highlevel game. But you will have some roach/hydra or muta too (you don't need a lot, 20 supply of them) with swarm hosts which shuts down dropping onto swarm hosts very well. That's simply where ground mech stops working, but Skycompositions are still too far away to get going at that point imo. Not to mention that the Zerg is very often one step ahead of you in terms of skycompositions from a mutalisk or hydralisk midgame + having the vipers to pull skyunits one by one, which means you need quite some vikings first, before you can even start to add in the AtG units to counter the swarm hosts. The solution is just to make Viper/Swarm Host more even with ground Mech in itself by changing blinding cloud. Zerg can simply drop helbats into your base while you're sieging his natural. How you're gonna defend it? Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 19:45 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 17:50 vthree wrote:
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Well, terrans also need Medivacs which are critical part of sustaining the 4M push. Problem is that there is no other units once you go 4M. It is not like you can make a switch to Air like the zerg. And not sure how you feel that games with Infestor/BL were more interesting. At least with 4M, there are more engagements.
Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers. Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with. I don't think it is as simple as looking at unit comps in straight up fights. Even if mech CAN win a 200/200 engagement with the right comp. The immobility of mech up to that points means you are going to be on 3 bases (4th is too hard to defend from mutas/runbys). The zerg is likely on 5 bases with bank and larvae. Even IF you win a fight, unless you retain like 60% of your units, you just can't rebuild you army like the zerg. That is why in WoL, Mvp was famous for going mainly mech on 1 map. The map which had 2 chokes leading to 5 bases where he could use planetaries to defend those chokes with tanks behind. Imagine if you are Protoss with out blink stalkers and storms that can be magic boxed. And see how you can deal with mutas. That is the issue that the mech player faces in the mid game with mutas. Except that widow mines are added specifically to defend from runbys and muta harass. WoL analogy is quite irrelevant now.
Except it didn't turn out like Blizzard expected, widows mines actually need marine support. Because with naked widow mines, the Zerg just runs in a couple zerglings to detonate the mines. And for mutas, as long as Zerg has overseer, they are pretty easy to deal with. The thing that makes 4 M so good is the synergy. The Zerg can't detonate mines unless they engage with a lot of forces, and the mutas are kept back by marines. And the Zerg can't just bum rush the marines due to mines. It is the role that tanks were suppose to play by tanks where just too expensive to replace compare with ling bling kits.
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On September 02 2013 19:59 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 19:53 TheDwf wrote:
And this is why you shouldn't talk about match-ups you don't play; so many simplistic shortcuts about TvZ. Quite sad that he sounds like an ordinary Zerg in the balance discussion thread. What are you talking about? He is known for offracing Zerg a lot, known for playing Zerg at GM level in Korea (at least he did in 2012) and he was e.g. the trainings partner of Mvp for his WCS EU matches against Dimaga and Stephano.
I remember watching drg lose to mc on stream when mc was off racing as zerg, during drgs god mode time.
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sc2 has to be (one of) the first game(s) designed to "look fun" rather than "being fun". I know it's a detail, but DK keeps saying what is exciting to watch and what is not, yet I'd like to hear where is the fun factor when using hellbats, mines, tempests or swarm hosts. That's a weird approach, a game is meant to be fun first, and if it's good enough it can evolve into some sort of a broadcasted show.
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Wise words, thanks for the translation.
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MC is so smart and so right, especially about the korean progamers who don't speak english.
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On September 02 2013 19:53 TheDwf wrote:
And this is why you shouldn't talk about match-ups you don't play; so many simplistic shortcuts about TvZ. Quite sad that he sounds like an ordinary Zerg in the balance discussion thread.
He can probably play terran in offracen better than you'll ever do and understand SC2 better than anyone her, the fact that he talk about a match up he doesn't play in pro match means he is unbiased on this subject.
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On September 02 2013 20:15 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
sc2 has to be (one of) the first game(s) designed to "look fun" rather than "being fun". I know it's a detail, but DK keeps saying what is exciting to watch and what is not, yet I'd like to hear where is the fun factor when using hellbats, mines, tempests or swarm hosts. That's a weird approach, a game is meant to be fun first, and if it's good enough it can evolve into some sort of a broadcasted show.
Exactly. Thats how LoL works. Make the game->make it fun -> more players -> more viewers -> esports.
SC2 started it in wrong order. Make the game->esports->game is boring->less players->less viewers.
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The gameplay is becoming really boring, stagnant and people are looking at other games. That is the truth. You can only watch 4M vs Ling/Bling/Muta so many times before you get completely bored. I for example watch only certain parts of games nowadays, because I can tell 100% what is going to happen in other parts.
It is really sad that they went with this "look, this kinda TvZ is so action packed, must be interesting". So the next step to make this game more interesting would be to make banelings explosions more graphical appealing? Because I don't get ANYTHING from those games in terms of strategy and depth. Only thing you get is the commentator's forced hype and see how far is Terran's rally point.
TvP is absolutely the same as WoL (at least for Terran). You don't even use those few mines poeple used to get at the very beginning of the game. Protoss is less prone to die early in the game so we can get to the MMMVG vs Splash fest faster.
TvT, on the other hand is the best matchup there is. Even better than it was in WoL. New tricks are popping here and there. People go Bio, Marine/Tank, Mech, even Sky Terran. Nearly all units are used in some way and all parts of strategy/micro/macro/decision making are important and decide who wins. Like Innovation vs TeaJa game, beautiful. There is even cheese possible, but you can scout it and react and then punish your opponent, etc..
They should take example of what is going on in TvT and apply changes to TvZ and TvP. People are getting sick of this stagnant TvX gameplay.
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On September 02 2013 20:20 Vanadiel wrote:
He can probably play terran in offracen better than you'll ever do and understand SC2 better than anyone her, the fact that he talk about a match up he doesn't play in pro match means he is unbiased on this subject.
"Terrans are basically immune to the roach attacks"
"Terrans don’t even need to scout."
"This allows Terrans to just send their boosted medivacs to harass. They don’t care if they lose it because it’s not risky at all"
"Ultralisks -> meal for marauders, broodlords -> meal for vikings."
So knowledgeable, so unbiased.
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On September 02 2013 20:00 Ameisenmann wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 19:54 Slydie wrote:
I would love to use tanks rather than mines in tvz, but they are just too weak, and the maps are too big.
4m is perfectly beatable by good zergs. That is where the exploring is happening now, Scarlett just gave a strong pointer in the right direction at WCS.
I hate that ppl talk about 4m as some a-move op strat! It is really hard to execute, just take a look at the difference from Maru to INnoVation. Mine positions, marinesplits, drops, drop escapes, macro... the skill cap is way up there, and of course the zergs should have to play equally fantastic to beat it.
The problems remains whether it's beatable or not: the matchup became really stagnant and boring to watch. It can't be argued that every TvZ right now looks very similar, and about that he is surely right. From a viewer's perspective now is like the first time in SC2 were I would almost say that PvZ is more interesting to watch than TvZ because at least there's a way bigger variety of unit comps and builds.
This. I have a gom subscription and don't watch ZvT anymore, it is just not interesting.
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MC the boss toss saying things just as they are. Except maybe the ultras being too weak. But still, much love for the guy as always :D
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I appreciate MC's input and willingness to communicate. However, I think that blaming the decrease in popularity of the SC brand primarily on SC2's design is wishful thinking.
Blizzard made several strategic mistakes when they released SC2 and kept swearing by them for quite a long time. They thoroughly botched Battle.net and stonewalled the Korean gaming booths which helped BW so much, pushing for terms that were almost abusive given their level of service. But, ultimately, what matters is that their business model for SC2 focusses on the production and sale of individual releases, not on the mantainance of a large and active community with an interest in competition. Single player is what drives the sales, and the price is high in a world of F2P.
This might have changed a bit in the past year or so, but there is still no comparison to what Riot and Valve have been doing from the get-go.
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On September 02 2013 20:15 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
sc2 has to be (one of) the first game(s) designed to "look fun" rather than "being fun". I know it's a detail, but DK keeps saying what is exciting to watch and what is not, yet I'd like to hear where is the fun factor when using hellbats, mines, tempests or swarm hosts. That's a weird approach, a game is meant to be fun first, and if it's good enough it can evolve into some sort of a broadcasted show.
Yup they totally botched that part. And I am always surprised when someone -while bashing LoL- says that BW was popular because it was better (in some abstract, objective metric); while the truth on the other hand is that BW was widely accessible for all ages, and was casual as fuck with all the UMSs, chat windows, team games, and laddering was just, like, a thing for a small dedicated portion of all the gamers. Well, whatever, it's behind us now.
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EPT
