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Bosstoss, telling it how it is. Beautiful, insightful, clear. I hope people listen.
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On September 02 2013 20:11 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 20:04 Sissors wrote:On September 02 2013 19:51 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 19:40 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:29 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:
[quote]
How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with. Dropping helbats onto swarmhosts works pretty well. Can't remember players, but it was a highlevel game. But you will have some roach/hydra or muta too (you don't need a lot, 20 supply of them) with swarm hosts which shuts down dropping onto swarm hosts very well. That's simply where ground mech stops working, but Skycompositions are still too far away to get going at that point imo. Not to mention that the Zerg is very often one step ahead of you in terms of skycompositions from a mutalisk or hydralisk midgame + having the vipers to pull skyunits one by one, which means you need quite some vikings first, before you can even start to add in the AtG units to counter the swarm hosts. The solution is just to make Viper/Swarm Host more even with ground Mech in itself by changing blinding cloud. Zerg can simply drop helbats into your base while you're sieging his natural. How you're gonna defend it? A few spines do that fine. And if needed a few mutas running around to kill the medivacs. On September 02 2013 19:45 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:
[quote]
What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms.
How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with. I don't think it is as simple as looking at unit comps in straight up fights. Even if mech CAN win a 200/200 engagement with the right comp. The immobility of mech up to that points means you are going to be on 3 bases (4th is too hard to defend from mutas/runbys). The zerg is likely on 5 bases with bank and larvae. Even IF you win a fight, unless you retain like 60% of your units, you just can't rebuild you army like the zerg. That is why in WoL, Mvp was famous for going mainly mech on 1 map. The map which had 2 chokes leading to 5 bases where he could use planetaries to defend those chokes with tanks behind. Imagine if you are Protoss with out blink stalkers and storms that can be magic boxed. And see how you can deal with mutas. That is the issue that the mech player faces in the mid game with mutas. Except that widow mines are added specifically to defend from runbys and muta harass. WoL analogy is quite irrelevant now. Yes except that doesn't work. The amount of mines you would need to defend muta harass is staggering and completely not viable. Sure once in a while you will pick off a muta with a mine, but you already need to group widow mines and turrets to even have a chance a widow mine fires. Also your idea of using banshees in midgame is simply bad. On the list of worst units in game banshees are fairly high. Cheaper cloak allowed some more early game shenanigans with banshees, but midgame and later they are still pointless. Put 3 spores around your swarmhosts and they are fine. Sure you can then get 10 banshees to break through that. And then you autolose to the first zerg techswitch. Ok, I'm trying to imagine your theory on mech tvz. Apparently, there are crapton of swarmhosts with vipers at your base, nearly 20 hydralisks to back it up. ~10 mutalisks are harassing your expansions, since few can't kill WM and turrets. Zerg base is covered with spines and spores. zerglings are running by everywhere. Is it platinum level you're talking about?
So if you cannot win an argument you go back to trolling?
I never claimed it was done all at once, they simply have a whole bunch of methods to screw over a mech player. I never even mentioned vipers with the swarmhosts. I also didn't mention anything about 20 hydralisks. 10 mutas aren't even a problem, some turrets deal with that fine, and why am I seriously replying on a troll?
Edit: Regarding MCs stuff: I do agree with him that the current TvZ metagame simply isn't much fun to watch anymore. At the same time imo he is way to fast with simply claiming terran OP, nerf terran. Also if you nerf widow mines I expect them to be another one of those units you can use a bit early game and which are useless later on. Already in TvT and TvP they are borderline useless after early game, and even early game they don't do much.
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On September 02 2013 20:00 Ameisenmann wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 19:54 Slydie wrote:
I would love to use tanks rather than mines in tvz, but they are just too weak, and the maps are too big.
4m is perfectly beatable by good zergs. That is where the exploring is happening now, Scarlett just gave a strong pointer in the right direction at WCS.
I hate that ppl talk about 4m as some a-move op strat! It is really hard to execute, just take a look at the difference from Maru to INnoVation. Mine positions, marinesplits, drops, drop escapes, macro... the skill cap is way up there, and of course the zergs should have to play equally fantastic to beat it.
The problems remains whether it's beatable or not: the matchup became really stagnant and boring to watch. It can't be argued that every TvZ right now looks very similar, and about that he is surely right. From a viewer's perspective now is like the first time in SC2 were I would almost say that PvZ is more interesting to watch than TvZ because at least there's a way bigger variety of unit comps and builds.
The problem starts with Blizzard NOT TRYING to make every unit viable in the game ... because this already limits the available choices for the players. So instead of a game with 16 or so viable units you only really have 5 ... which will make the game rather boring.
Stuff like Fungal Growth or Neural Parasite or Abduct really make expensive and slow to produce T3 units rather useless. Densely clustered ground units with AA capability make - the usually more expensive - flying units rather useless. So we end up with a game where every battle involves the cheapest stuff that can be reproduced in the fastest way. Good job Dustin and David!
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On September 02 2013 20:38 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 20:11 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 20:04 Sissors wrote:On September 02 2013 19:51 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 19:40 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:29 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:
[quote]
This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass.
Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable.
And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers.
Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding.
If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those.
The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with. Dropping helbats onto swarmhosts works pretty well. Can't remember players, but it was a highlevel game. But you will have some roach/hydra or muta too (you don't need a lot, 20 supply of them) with swarm hosts which shuts down dropping onto swarm hosts very well. That's simply where ground mech stops working, but Skycompositions are still too far away to get going at that point imo. Not to mention that the Zerg is very often one step ahead of you in terms of skycompositions from a mutalisk or hydralisk midgame + having the vipers to pull skyunits one by one, which means you need quite some vikings first, before you can even start to add in the AtG units to counter the swarm hosts. The solution is just to make Viper/Swarm Host more even with ground Mech in itself by changing blinding cloud. Zerg can simply drop helbats into your base while you're sieging his natural. How you're gonna defend it? A few spines do that fine. And if needed a few mutas running around to kill the medivacs. On September 02 2013 19:45 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:
[quote]
How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with. I don't think it is as simple as looking at unit comps in straight up fights. Even if mech CAN win a 200/200 engagement with the right comp. The immobility of mech up to that points means you are going to be on 3 bases (4th is too hard to defend from mutas/runbys). The zerg is likely on 5 bases with bank and larvae. Even IF you win a fight, unless you retain like 60% of your units, you just can't rebuild you army like the zerg. That is why in WoL, Mvp was famous for going mainly mech on 1 map. The map which had 2 chokes leading to 5 bases where he could use planetaries to defend those chokes with tanks behind. Imagine if you are Protoss with out blink stalkers and storms that can be magic boxed. And see how you can deal with mutas. That is the issue that the mech player faces in the mid game with mutas. Except that widow mines are added specifically to defend from runbys and muta harass. WoL analogy is quite irrelevant now. Yes except that doesn't work. The amount of mines you would need to defend muta harass is staggering and completely not viable. Sure once in a while you will pick off a muta with a mine, but you already need to group widow mines and turrets to even have a chance a widow mine fires. Also your idea of using banshees in midgame is simply bad. On the list of worst units in game banshees are fairly high. Cheaper cloak allowed some more early game shenanigans with banshees, but midgame and later they are still pointless. Put 3 spores around your swarmhosts and they are fine. Sure you can then get 10 banshees to break through that. And then you autolose to the first zerg techswitch. Ok, I'm trying to imagine your theory on mech tvz. Apparently, there are crapton of swarmhosts with vipers at your base, nearly 20 hydralisks to back it up. ~10 mutalisks are harassing your expansions, since few can't kill WM and turrets. Zerg base is covered with spines and spores. zerglings are running by everywhere. Is it platinum level you're talking about? So if you cannot win an argument you go back to trolling? I never claimed it was done all at once, they simply have a whole bunch of methods to screw over a mech player. I never even mentioned vipers with the swarmhosts. I also didn't mention anything about 20 hydralisks. 10 mutas aren't even a problem, some turrets deal with that fine, and why am I seriously replying on a troll?
Do you even know what trolling is? Someone disagreeing or not understanding you doesn't mean trolling.
Lets think of a scenario. I went mech, tanks, helbats, vikings, medivacs. Put turrets and widow mines to defend my expansions. And gearing up to 2-2 push. Whats your move?
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Nothing new being said by MC here. I do like his point about build order repetition making the gameplay feel stagnant, it is quite burdensome for people to see the same thing, dont think there's a way behind it though
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thank you for the translation, was a nice read.
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ah i agree with mc, the most important point here i think is that the koreans should learn the english language, i think, and this is just my opinion, it's a little bit disrespectful to go to US/EU tournament and being not even able to talk to the english community.
but i don't agree with terry here, neither seed nor jjakji disappeared into oblivion that's just wrong, everyone remembers this pvp when seed 4gatewarpprism'd mc like 4 times in a row and mc looked helpless, and everyone knows this tasteless prediction that leenock and jjiakji will make it to the finals and artosis just says "never gonna happen" and then jjakji becomes champion, i don't think people will ever forget them, but the point is just duckdeok saying "i respect the european culture" in korean when he wins wcs eu, doesn't really make him look like it, if he is not even able to talk in english. i wish that all koreans would be like MC in that regard or even as stardust with his broken english, i appreciated it so much when he walked on stage and tried to talk in english.
well, other than that, ye tvz maybe should change, but then again it's quite an interesting mu, until 3/3 hits for terran and then he just runs the zerg over. ye they definetely should change that but then again how? noone has a clue yet, i guess we will still need some time to figure out what should be changed.
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On September 02 2013 20:42 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 20:38 Sissors wrote:On September 02 2013 20:11 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 20:04 Sissors wrote:On September 02 2013 19:51 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 19:40 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:29 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:
[quote]
MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions.
Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations.
If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with. Dropping helbats onto swarmhosts works pretty well. Can't remember players, but it was a highlevel game. But you will have some roach/hydra or muta too (you don't need a lot, 20 supply of them) with swarm hosts which shuts down dropping onto swarm hosts very well. That's simply where ground mech stops working, but Skycompositions are still too far away to get going at that point imo. Not to mention that the Zerg is very often one step ahead of you in terms of skycompositions from a mutalisk or hydralisk midgame + having the vipers to pull skyunits one by one, which means you need quite some vikings first, before you can even start to add in the AtG units to counter the swarm hosts. The solution is just to make Viper/Swarm Host more even with ground Mech in itself by changing blinding cloud. Zerg can simply drop helbats into your base while you're sieging his natural. How you're gonna defend it? A few spines do that fine. And if needed a few mutas running around to kill the medivacs. On September 02 2013 19:45 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:
[quote]
This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass.
Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable.
And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers.
Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding.
If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those.
The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with. I don't think it is as simple as looking at unit comps in straight up fights. Even if mech CAN win a 200/200 engagement with the right comp. The immobility of mech up to that points means you are going to be on 3 bases (4th is too hard to defend from mutas/runbys). The zerg is likely on 5 bases with bank and larvae. Even IF you win a fight, unless you retain like 60% of your units, you just can't rebuild you army like the zerg. That is why in WoL, Mvp was famous for going mainly mech on 1 map. The map which had 2 chokes leading to 5 bases where he could use planetaries to defend those chokes with tanks behind. Imagine if you are Protoss with out blink stalkers and storms that can be magic boxed. And see how you can deal with mutas. That is the issue that the mech player faces in the mid game with mutas. Except that widow mines are added specifically to defend from runbys and muta harass. WoL analogy is quite irrelevant now. Yes except that doesn't work. The amount of mines you would need to defend muta harass is staggering and completely not viable. Sure once in a while you will pick off a muta with a mine, but you already need to group widow mines and turrets to even have a chance a widow mine fires. Also your idea of using banshees in midgame is simply bad. On the list of worst units in game banshees are fairly high. Cheaper cloak allowed some more early game shenanigans with banshees, but midgame and later they are still pointless. Put 3 spores around your swarmhosts and they are fine. Sure you can then get 10 banshees to break through that. And then you autolose to the first zerg techswitch. Ok, I'm trying to imagine your theory on mech tvz. Apparently, there are crapton of swarmhosts with vipers at your base, nearly 20 hydralisks to back it up. ~10 mutalisks are harassing your expansions, since few can't kill WM and turrets. Zerg base is covered with spines and spores. zerglings are running by everywhere. Is it platinum level you're talking about? So if you cannot win an argument you go back to trolling? I never claimed it was done all at once, they simply have a whole bunch of methods to screw over a mech player. I never even mentioned vipers with the swarmhosts. I also didn't mention anything about 20 hydralisks. 10 mutas aren't even a problem, some turrets deal with that fine, and why am I seriously replying on a troll? Do you even know what trolling is? Someone disagreeing or not understanding you doesn't mean trolling. Lets think of a scenario. I went mech, tanks, helbats, vikings, medivacs. Put turrets and widow mines to defend my expansions. And gearing up to 2-2 push. Whats your move?
Yep I know what trolling is, your post was trolling. It had nothing to do with disagreeing.
Get some 20-30 mutas, harass the shit out of you (nop, widow mines and turrets aren't going to stop that). Happily expand since you are stuck trying to defend mutas, tech switch to either broodlords or ultras, attack you until you are dead.
or
Get whole bunch of swarmhosts, with a few roach/hydra to defend against drops on top of them. Burrow, release locusts, move, burrow again. At home you will then need some spores/spines. Meanwhile tech to vipers. As soon as vipers are there put blinding cloud on tanks which need to be clumped up to deal with locusts, proceed to kill all tanks with locusts.
or
Same but now add broodlords and some corrupters. Funny thing: tanks need to be unsieged vs broodlords and sieged vs locusts.
or
Roach hydra army, with some early pushes you can really ruin terrans day if he took third fast. If he didn't he is way behind economically. Meanwhile expand, get vipers, gg. In your description you have siege tanks but no thors, so then this isn't the best idea. You completely lack any kind of air defense so mutas make more sense. If you got a bunch of thors then roach hydra do fine.
and (with the whole bunch of them)
load 32 cracklings into a bunch of ovis. Drop them in terrans base when his 200/200 army moves out.
Important part here is that a zerg player should be way ahead economically vs a terran mech player, since the zerg should have complete map control.
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On September 02 2013 20:58 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 20:42 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 20:38 Sissors wrote:On September 02 2013 20:11 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 20:04 Sissors wrote:On September 02 2013 19:51 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 19:40 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:29 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:
[quote]
For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring.
Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with. Dropping helbats onto swarmhosts works pretty well. Can't remember players, but it was a highlevel game. But you will have some roach/hydra or muta too (you don't need a lot, 20 supply of them) with swarm hosts which shuts down dropping onto swarm hosts very well. That's simply where ground mech stops working, but Skycompositions are still too far away to get going at that point imo. Not to mention that the Zerg is very often one step ahead of you in terms of skycompositions from a mutalisk or hydralisk midgame + having the vipers to pull skyunits one by one, which means you need quite some vikings first, before you can even start to add in the AtG units to counter the swarm hosts. The solution is just to make Viper/Swarm Host more even with ground Mech in itself by changing blinding cloud. Zerg can simply drop helbats into your base while you're sieging his natural. How you're gonna defend it? A few spines do that fine. And if needed a few mutas running around to kill the medivacs. On September 02 2013 19:45 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:
[quote]
MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions.
Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations.
If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with. I don't think it is as simple as looking at unit comps in straight up fights. Even if mech CAN win a 200/200 engagement with the right comp. The immobility of mech up to that points means you are going to be on 3 bases (4th is too hard to defend from mutas/runbys). The zerg is likely on 5 bases with bank and larvae. Even IF you win a fight, unless you retain like 60% of your units, you just can't rebuild you army like the zerg. That is why in WoL, Mvp was famous for going mainly mech on 1 map. The map which had 2 chokes leading to 5 bases where he could use planetaries to defend those chokes with tanks behind. Imagine if you are Protoss with out blink stalkers and storms that can be magic boxed. And see how you can deal with mutas. That is the issue that the mech player faces in the mid game with mutas. Except that widow mines are added specifically to defend from runbys and muta harass. WoL analogy is quite irrelevant now. Yes except that doesn't work. The amount of mines you would need to defend muta harass is staggering and completely not viable. Sure once in a while you will pick off a muta with a mine, but you already need to group widow mines and turrets to even have a chance a widow mine fires. Also your idea of using banshees in midgame is simply bad. On the list of worst units in game banshees are fairly high. Cheaper cloak allowed some more early game shenanigans with banshees, but midgame and later they are still pointless. Put 3 spores around your swarmhosts and they are fine. Sure you can then get 10 banshees to break through that. And then you autolose to the first zerg techswitch. Ok, I'm trying to imagine your theory on mech tvz. Apparently, there are crapton of swarmhosts with vipers at your base, nearly 20 hydralisks to back it up. ~10 mutalisks are harassing your expansions, since few can't kill WM and turrets. Zerg base is covered with spines and spores. zerglings are running by everywhere. Is it platinum level you're talking about? So if you cannot win an argument you go back to trolling? I never claimed it was done all at once, they simply have a whole bunch of methods to screw over a mech player. I never even mentioned vipers with the swarmhosts. I also didn't mention anything about 20 hydralisks. 10 mutas aren't even a problem, some turrets deal with that fine, and why am I seriously replying on a troll? Do you even know what trolling is? Someone disagreeing or not understanding you doesn't mean trolling. Lets think of a scenario. I went mech, tanks, helbats, vikings, medivacs. Put turrets and widow mines to defend my expansions. And gearing up to 2-2 push. Whats your move? Yep I know what trolling is, your post was trolling. It had nothing to do with disagreeing. Get some 20-30 mutas, harass the shit out of you (nop, widow mines and turrets aren't going to stop that). Happily expand since you are stuck trying to defend mutas, tech switch to either broodlords or ultras, attack you until you are dead. or Get whole bunch of swarmhosts, with a few roach/hydra to defend against drops on top of them. Burrow, release locusts, move, burrow again. At home you will then need some spores/spines. Meanwhile tech to vipers. As soon as vipers are there put blinding cloud on tanks which need to be clumped up to deal with locusts, proceed to kill all tanks with locusts. or Same but now add broodlords and some corrupters. Funny thing: tanks need to be unsieged vs broodlords and sieged vs locusts. or Roach hydra army, with some early pushes you can really ruin terrans day if he took third fast. If he didn't he is way behind economically. Meanwhile expand, get vipers, gg. In your description you have siege tanks but no thors, so then this isn't the best idea. You completely lack any kind of air defense so mutas make more sense. If you got a bunch of thors then roach hydra do fine. and (with the whole bunch of them) load 32 cracklings into a bunch of ovis. Drop them in terrans base when his 200/200 army moves out. Important part here is that a zerg player should be way ahead economically vs a terran mech player, since the zerg should have complete map control.
Why don't you just stop feeding him? It's obvious..
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On September 02 2013 18:19 PerSe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:12 Lizarb wrote:
I'm just sad that JD's subpar ZvT made all this TvZ "is broken" talk happen, forcing Zerg players yet again to think that there is nothing they can change in how they play. ZvT is mainly in a bad state because Zerg players don't try something different. Scarlett did so much better vs. Bomber.
Fungal STILL stun locks units.
Blinding cloud isn't really used.
Muta is a super fast unit, hit the Terran base, don't throw 2/0 Muta at 2/2 marines with medivacs. (This is the main reason JD is 0-8 in ZvT finals.)
Try to use the swarm host for defense. Free units are good.
On bigger maps, nydus can bypass a huge distance.
I'm not saying all of these ideas will work, but not trying anything will not work either. And how easy do you think it will be as a Terran to guess what the Zerg does if you do the same thing every time?
While MC says that ultra just gets countered by marauders, and Broodlords by vikings, he forget to highlight that Zerg still can switch unit composition way faster than Terran. If you show that you intend on going ultras/Broodlords don't give the Terran 10+ mins to switch tech.
As I see it HotS mainly meant that its even harder to play now. Terran and Protoss was used to having to pick their engagements Zerg has to learn to be better at this now. People started realising that TvZ was imbalanced way before Dong's losses against Bomber. We're talking about a match up where Soulkey (best zerg and zvter in the world) would look like he is winning, take a widow mine hit and proceed to lose in just about every game versus Innovation. and OKAY, innovation and Flash have exemplary TvZ, but then we see SK losing to supernova. And this is supported by the lower number of zergs in Code S etc.
I still think that Zerg players are the slowest to change when the META changes. I think its a side effect to how much the race focuses on mechanics. People get tricked into thinking that there is one correct way to play Zerg. I brought JD up because there was a shit storm after both of his loses. And while his ZvZ and now ZvP are awesome, his ZvT is not good enough to win a championship game.
Hellbats needed the change, but I'm still not convinced that ZvT is imbalanced as it is now. Widow mines forces zerg to micro, just like the baneling has forced marine splitting micro since WoL. Early on in HotS we saw Life trigger widow mines with a few lings, even blowing up marines in the process. There are tons of things Zerg could try, that we hardly ever see even attempted. Even in none tournament play when people just ladder on stream. I can only recall Symbol/TLO doing some Nydus action, and a few other doing some drop play. There is more to winning than good mechanics, at least at the very top.
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General problem is just that the tweaking that happens is focussed too much on balance instead of diversity and balance at the same time.
Otherwise we'd be having viable mech already and more meaningfull transitions. Terran is stuck too much into hyperaggressive bio styles and Z too much on lair massing just because the benefit of teching further doesn't pay off well enough.
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On September 02 2013 20:28 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 20:20 Vanadiel wrote:
He can probably play terran in offracen better than you'll ever do and understand SC2 better than anyone her, the fact that he talk about a match up he doesn't play in pro match means he is unbiased on this subject. "Terrans are basically immune to the roach attacks" "Terrans don’t even need to scout." "This allows Terrans to just send their boosted medivacs to harass. They don’t care if they lose it because it’s not risky at all" "Ultralisks -> meal for marauders, broodlords -> meal for vikings." So knowledgeable, so unbiased.
It's easy to quote things out of context and disregard the fact that he's only talking about one matchup, not Terran as a whole, and more importantly he's talking about high level Korean play, not gold/platinum/diamond whatever.
On September 02 2013 21:05 Markwerf wrote:
General problem is just that the tweaking that happens is focussed too much on balance instead of diversity and balance at the same time.
Otherwise we'd be having viable mech already and more meaningfull transitions. Terran is stuck too much into hyperaggressive bio styles and Z too much on lair massing just because the benefit of teching further doesn't pay off well enough.
I doubt fixing that without a massive game design overhaul is even possible, let alone likely, and even if Blizzard would be willing to concede and do that, it would most likely not be until LotV beta that we can see some significant changes.
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On September 02 2013 20:58 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 20:42 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 20:38 Sissors wrote:On September 02 2013 20:11 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 20:04 Sissors wrote:On September 02 2013 19:51 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 19:40 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:29 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:
[quote]
For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring.
Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with. Dropping helbats onto swarmhosts works pretty well. Can't remember players, but it was a highlevel game. But you will have some roach/hydra or muta too (you don't need a lot, 20 supply of them) with swarm hosts which shuts down dropping onto swarm hosts very well. That's simply where ground mech stops working, but Skycompositions are still too far away to get going at that point imo. Not to mention that the Zerg is very often one step ahead of you in terms of skycompositions from a mutalisk or hydralisk midgame + having the vipers to pull skyunits one by one, which means you need quite some vikings first, before you can even start to add in the AtG units to counter the swarm hosts. The solution is just to make Viper/Swarm Host more even with ground Mech in itself by changing blinding cloud. Zerg can simply drop helbats into your base while you're sieging his natural. How you're gonna defend it? A few spines do that fine. And if needed a few mutas running around to kill the medivacs. On September 02 2013 19:45 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:
[quote]
MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions.
Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations.
If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with. I don't think it is as simple as looking at unit comps in straight up fights. Even if mech CAN win a 200/200 engagement with the right comp. The immobility of mech up to that points means you are going to be on 3 bases (4th is too hard to defend from mutas/runbys). The zerg is likely on 5 bases with bank and larvae. Even IF you win a fight, unless you retain like 60% of your units, you just can't rebuild you army like the zerg. That is why in WoL, Mvp was famous for going mainly mech on 1 map. The map which had 2 chokes leading to 5 bases where he could use planetaries to defend those chokes with tanks behind. Imagine if you are Protoss with out blink stalkers and storms that can be magic boxed. And see how you can deal with mutas. That is the issue that the mech player faces in the mid game with mutas. Except that widow mines are added specifically to defend from runbys and muta harass. WoL analogy is quite irrelevant now. Yes except that doesn't work. The amount of mines you would need to defend muta harass is staggering and completely not viable. Sure once in a while you will pick off a muta with a mine, but you already need to group widow mines and turrets to even have a chance a widow mine fires. Also your idea of using banshees in midgame is simply bad. On the list of worst units in game banshees are fairly high. Cheaper cloak allowed some more early game shenanigans with banshees, but midgame and later they are still pointless. Put 3 spores around your swarmhosts and they are fine. Sure you can then get 10 banshees to break through that. And then you autolose to the first zerg techswitch. Ok, I'm trying to imagine your theory on mech tvz. Apparently, there are crapton of swarmhosts with vipers at your base, nearly 20 hydralisks to back it up. ~10 mutalisks are harassing your expansions, since few can't kill WM and turrets. Zerg base is covered with spines and spores. zerglings are running by everywhere. Is it platinum level you're talking about? So if you cannot win an argument you go back to trolling? I never claimed it was done all at once, they simply have a whole bunch of methods to screw over a mech player. I never even mentioned vipers with the swarmhosts. I also didn't mention anything about 20 hydralisks. 10 mutas aren't even a problem, some turrets deal with that fine, and why am I seriously replying on a troll? Do you even know what trolling is? Someone disagreeing or not understanding you doesn't mean trolling. Lets think of a scenario. I went mech, tanks, helbats, vikings, medivacs. Put turrets and widow mines to defend my expansions. And gearing up to 2-2 push. Whats your move? Yep I know what trolling is, your post was trolling. It had nothing to do with disagreeing. Get some 20-30 mutas, harass the shit out of you (nop, widow mines and turrets aren't going to stop that). Happily expand since you are stuck trying to defend mutas, tech switch to either broodlords or ultras, attack you until you are dead. or Get whole bunch of swarmhosts, with a few roach/hydra to defend against drops on top of them. Burrow, release locusts, move, burrow again. At home you will then need some spores/spines. Meanwhile tech to vipers. As soon as vipers are there put blinding cloud on tanks which need to be clumped up to deal with locusts, proceed to kill all tanks with locusts. or Same but now add broodlords and some corrupters. Funny thing: tanks need to be unsieged vs broodlords and sieged vs locusts. or Roach hydra army, with some early pushes you can really ruin terrans day if he took third fast. If he didn't he is way behind economically. Meanwhile expand, get vipers, gg. In your description you have siege tanks but no thors, so then this isn't the best idea. You completely lack any kind of air defense so mutas make more sense. If you got a bunch of thors then roach hydra do fine. and (with the whole bunch of them) load 32 cracklings into a bunch of ovis. Drop them in terrans base when his 200/200 army moves out. Important part here is that a zerg player should be way ahead economically vs a terran mech player, since the zerg should have complete map control.
1. Mutas are easily repelled with couple of widow mines and 3-4 turrets.
2. You'll be killed before you reach broodlords. If you mean to rush to them.
3. You get swarmhosts/roach/hydra/spores/spines/viper and you think terran will have bunch of clumped up tanks meantime?
4. Tanks are known counter to roach/hydra.
5. Helbats eat cracklings.
All of your assumption that zerg beats mech terran is around zerg getting literally every tech tree. And you call me troll.
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The flaws in SC2 are fundamentally ingrained there's no easy fix. I am mean think about how many problems unit clumping brings? What are the advantages of unit clumping as opposed to disadvantages? Terrans know, their seige tanks suck and their hellbats and widow mines are suspect for nerfs.
And unit clumping IMO shit's all over the zerg race. Blizzard had to design swarm hosts and broodlords just to create the swarmy feel again.
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Really wise words from MC. Couldn't agree more that TvZ was always the most entertaining match up to watch, for me at least, but now the stagnation has made it boring.
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Good State of the Union address by the Protoss President.
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This has always been the problem of SC2. Very few micro, and hard counter units system based.
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On September 02 2013 21:07 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 21:05 Markwerf wrote:
General problem is just that the tweaking that happens is focussed too much on balance instead of diversity and balance at the same time.
Otherwise we'd be having viable mech already and more meaningfull transitions. Terran is stuck too much into hyperaggressive bio styles and Z too much on lair massing just because the benefit of teching further doesn't pay off well enough. I doubt fixing that without a massive game design overhaul is even possible, let alone likely, and even if Blizzard would be willing to concede and do that, it would most likely not be until LotV beta that we can see some significant changes.
Why do you need a massive game overhaul for that? There are not fundamental problems that need to be adressed to create more variety, just balance problems. Like MC says, the matchup was better in WoL (though more imbalanced).
E.g.:
Mech/tank is too weak. Solution? Buff Mech/tank and/or nerf its strongest counters.
Bio/Mine forces a zerg into muta/ling/bling. Solution? Tweak other zerg units so that they become stronger against those Terran units.
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On September 02 2013 20:28 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 20:20 Vanadiel wrote:
He can probably play terran in offracen better than you'll ever do and understand SC2 better than anyone her, the fact that he talk about a match up he doesn't play in pro match means he is unbiased on this subject. "Terrans are basically immune to the roach attacks" "Terrans don’t even need to scout." "This allows Terrans to just send their boosted medivacs to harass. They don’t care if they lose it because it’s not risky at all" "Ultralisks -> meal for marauders, broodlords -> meal for vikings." So knowledgeable, so unbiased.
I thought the same.  MC does sound a bit biased.
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On September 02 2013 21:10 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 20:58 Sissors wrote:On September 02 2013 20:42 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 20:38 Sissors wrote:On September 02 2013 20:11 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 20:04 Sissors wrote:On September 02 2013 19:51 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 19:40 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:29 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with. Dropping helbats onto swarmhosts works pretty well. Can't remember players, but it was a highlevel game. But you will have some roach/hydra or muta too (you don't need a lot, 20 supply of them) with swarm hosts which shuts down dropping onto swarm hosts very well. That's simply where ground mech stops working, but Skycompositions are still too far away to get going at that point imo. Not to mention that the Zerg is very often one step ahead of you in terms of skycompositions from a mutalisk or hydralisk midgame + having the vipers to pull skyunits one by one, which means you need quite some vikings first, before you can even start to add in the AtG units to counter the swarm hosts. The solution is just to make Viper/Swarm Host more even with ground Mech in itself by changing blinding cloud. Zerg can simply drop helbats into your base while you're sieging his natural. How you're gonna defend it? A few spines do that fine. And if needed a few mutas running around to kill the medivacs. On September 02 2013 19:45 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:
[quote]
For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring.
Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with. I don't think it is as simple as looking at unit comps in straight up fights. Even if mech CAN win a 200/200 engagement with the right comp. The immobility of mech up to that points means you are going to be on 3 bases (4th is too hard to defend from mutas/runbys). The zerg is likely on 5 bases with bank and larvae. Even IF you win a fight, unless you retain like 60% of your units, you just can't rebuild you army like the zerg. That is why in WoL, Mvp was famous for going mainly mech on 1 map. The map which had 2 chokes leading to 5 bases where he could use planetaries to defend those chokes with tanks behind. Imagine if you are Protoss with out blink stalkers and storms that can be magic boxed. And see how you can deal with mutas. That is the issue that the mech player faces in the mid game with mutas. Except that widow mines are added specifically to defend from runbys and muta harass. WoL analogy is quite irrelevant now. Yes except that doesn't work. The amount of mines you would need to defend muta harass is staggering and completely not viable. Sure once in a while you will pick off a muta with a mine, but you already need to group widow mines and turrets to even have a chance a widow mine fires. Also your idea of using banshees in midgame is simply bad. On the list of worst units in game banshees are fairly high. Cheaper cloak allowed some more early game shenanigans with banshees, but midgame and later they are still pointless. Put 3 spores around your swarmhosts and they are fine. Sure you can then get 10 banshees to break through that. And then you autolose to the first zerg techswitch. Ok, I'm trying to imagine your theory on mech tvz. Apparently, there are crapton of swarmhosts with vipers at your base, nearly 20 hydralisks to back it up. ~10 mutalisks are harassing your expansions, since few can't kill WM and turrets. Zerg base is covered with spines and spores. zerglings are running by everywhere. Is it platinum level you're talking about? So if you cannot win an argument you go back to trolling? I never claimed it was done all at once, they simply have a whole bunch of methods to screw over a mech player. I never even mentioned vipers with the swarmhosts. I also didn't mention anything about 20 hydralisks. 10 mutas aren't even a problem, some turrets deal with that fine, and why am I seriously replying on a troll? Do you even know what trolling is? Someone disagreeing or not understanding you doesn't mean trolling. Lets think of a scenario. I went mech, tanks, helbats, vikings, medivacs. Put turrets and widow mines to defend my expansions. And gearing up to 2-2 push. Whats your move? Yep I know what trolling is, your post was trolling. It had nothing to do with disagreeing. Get some 20-30 mutas, harass the shit out of you (nop, widow mines and turrets aren't going to stop that). Happily expand since you are stuck trying to defend mutas, tech switch to either broodlords or ultras, attack you until you are dead. or Get whole bunch of swarmhosts, with a few roach/hydra to defend against drops on top of them. Burrow, release locusts, move, burrow again. At home you will then need some spores/spines. Meanwhile tech to vipers. As soon as vipers are there put blinding cloud on tanks which need to be clumped up to deal with locusts, proceed to kill all tanks with locusts. or Same but now add broodlords and some corrupters. Funny thing: tanks need to be unsieged vs broodlords and sieged vs locusts. or Roach hydra army, with some early pushes you can really ruin terrans day if he took third fast. If he didn't he is way behind economically. Meanwhile expand, get vipers, gg. In your description you have siege tanks but no thors, so then this isn't the best idea. You completely lack any kind of air defense so mutas make more sense. If you got a bunch of thors then roach hydra do fine. and (with the whole bunch of them) load 32 cracklings into a bunch of ovis. Drop them in terrans base when his 200/200 army moves out. Important part here is that a zerg player should be way ahead economically vs a terran mech player, since the zerg should have complete map control. 1. Mutas are easily repelled with couple of widow mines and 3-4 turrets. 2. You'll be killed before you reach broodlords. If you mean to rush to them. 3. You get swarmhosts/roach/hydra/spores/spines/viper and you think terran will have bunch of clumped up tanks meantime? 4. Tanks are known counter to roach/hydra. 5. Helbats eat cracklings. All of your assumption that zerg beats mech terran is around zerg getting literally every tech tree. And you call me troll.
1. Really? 20-30 mutas repelled by a few turrets and widow mines? They one shot both, widow mines before they can fire. Against 10 mutas turrets do fine, if they get more than turrets become insufficient and you need thor(s). Really your lack of experience shows pretty badly here if you think muta flocks are repelled by a few widow mines and 3-4 turrets.
2. I don't mean to rush them, you are happily playing with swarmhosts and meanwhile slowly teching to broods.
3. Oh your tanks aren't bunched up? Nevermind then, just stay on swarmhost tech and win the game directly because your tanks are dying one at a time. You cannot just spread out your tanks. Against ling/bling that works, because then you trade your first tanks so your tanks behind can keep firing longer. Trading tanks against free units is a bad idea.
4. With just a few tanks roach/hydra is known to walk right over them. When you got many tanks, yes. Tanks are known to be surpringly bad when under blinding cloud...
5. Good. Now those slow ass hellbats in the middle of the map will eat the cracklings in your base. Sadly they arent there.
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EPT
