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I'm not sure the problem is the lack of variety in strategy. I mean, this is a problem, but if you look at say LoL matchups, the variety isn't great either, people are more interested in watching the execution. Of course more variety would be great tough, but to me as a player (not pro of course, but still), the most frustrating thing are the economy mechanisms that allow really stupid shit to happen. Killing workers is hardly useful past early mid game, scouting 6 roaches doesn't mean 1mn later there won't be a roach bane all in, etc.
As a spectator I don't really have problems with the game except SH turtle fests, but thank god for jaedong and his mutas <3 I don't mind terrans using MMMM all the time cause I find it fun to watch, but I understand people who would like to see mech and such. Anyway, Blizzard probably won't give a damn, so better enjoy and support the game as it is I guess.
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On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 17:50 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 17:39 DoNuTs84 wrote:
wow point 1 about the metagame is like the exactly reason why i quitted Starcraft II. As a Zerg player it feel realllly annoying that the Terran can just stay on T1(Marines)+T2(Widowmines) while as Zerg you basically need both ground and air T3 to deal with it safely(Ultralisks+BroodLords).
Interesting that Blizzard wants to buff Ultralisks but lets be honest it not often Zerg survives the midgame and even get 1 Ultralisk out. Ultralisk buff is good but its not gonna make you survive midgame. Its more the Marine/Widowmine composition that needs to be changed.
Only thing i can come up with that can deal with Marine/Widowmine is the old WoL Infestor where its very hard to Terran to just dodge fungal. That would maybe force terran to actually make other units than BioMine.
Lets be honest again. Protoss would still crush BroodLord/Infestor in HotS(Because of Tempest and Voidrays). Terran would have a harder time beating that...but at least it would make the games interesting again. Well, terrans also need Medivacs which are critical part of sustaining the 4M push. Problem is that there is no other units once you go 4M. It is not like you can make a switch to Air like the zerg. And not sure how you feel that games with Infestor/BL were more interesting. At least with 4M, there are more engagements. Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers. Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push.
You provide example that shows mech is viable. Then tell mech is not viable because MVP stopped using it since. Pretty interesting logic. Didn't it occur to you that 4M might be so much better than mech that pros tend to use it, though mech is still viable?
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On September 02 2013 18:58 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:47 Everlong wrote:On September 02 2013 18:38 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:29 Everlong wrote:On September 02 2013 18:26 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:24 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:22 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:12 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:06 Decendos wrote:
agree 100%. blizz should really buff units that deal with mass units like infestor and viper to deal with MMMM and they should buff them so much that T cant stay on MMMM all game. but since MMMM also is the only way to really win for T they also should then buff tanks and make the transition into mech or air easier by buffing stuff like BC or raven buildtime or removing upgrades like raven energy oder BC energy upgrades, which would also fix the stalemate of TvP with MMMVG since years now. Well, vipers also hard counter tanks right now and so do infested terrans. The tank by itself is not a bad unit but there are just too many hard counters right now (both in vZ and vP). Most ridiculous thing I ever heard. -vikings/ghosts kill vipers. -infested terrans can be dealed with smart placing of turrets and raven. You don't need god-like micro or multitask for it. 2-1 mech timing can hit long before hive. Please, don't talk nonsense about strategies pro players haven't even played yet. Please, have you watched WoL TvZ? What WoL has to do with it? Sorry, but you are completely wrong with Vikings/Ghosts solving issues with Viper while going mech. Either get your facts together or stop speaking your ass off. Mind your speech, we're in civilized world. If we are on facts then tell me why exactly I'm wrong with Vikings/ghosts? Have you got any replays/vods it not working? Or is it your assumption? Alright, we can have a serious discussion. But please, make sure you know what you are talking about. To start it off, I will answer your question. No, I don't have any replays/vods where Terran gets Ghosts to counter Vipers. Vikings do the job just fine, but it is not solving the issue with Viper. We might get to this later. Now, my question. Do you have any replays/vods where it actually does work? P.S: "we're in civilized world" - I'm not sure I agree with that, but that is another discussion. Let me tell you from the beginning. Someone told "mech is unviable, thats why terran uses 4M only". I contradicted and said mech is unexplored area and its possibly viable. Its only assumption, theorycrafting. But my original point is its not proven if mech is unviable. Therefore, its you, who supposed to prove it. Since I'm not claiming anything 100%. P.S: Everyone lives in a world he thinks he lives in.
I think you are just wrong. :-)
I'll try to explain.
"Mech is unexplored area" - THIS is an assumption from your point of view. It is also completely not true. Many, many people have been trying to make it work (even Korean pros) and to some degree and in certain matchups it works (I've made it to high masters EU meching all matchups). And believe me, it is completely explored area.
Better players know exactly what to do against mech to abuse it's weakness and force situations where you flat out lose due to those weaknesses. You will win games here and there, sure. But it is absolutely not a reliable playstyle. We can get deeper into that. But I will stop for now, because I don't like how you are forcing me into "its you, who supposed to prove it". No, man, just no.. What on Earth would make you think in such way? It has been proven 1000x times mech is not "viable". It is even acknowledged by Blizzard and you come here to say I'm the one that needs to prove it once more?
Also, you live in a world you think you are living in until you face reality.
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On September 02 2013 19:05 chongu wrote:
TvZ & PvT has been un-entertaining for a while now (e.g, mine-into-gg and mass EMPs over the protoss army).
Blizzard needs to be bold and make unpopular bold patches to the game - and throw their O-so-comforting statistics about why the game is balance out the window.
I also hope professionals be more frank about the game and it's meta, to follow in MC's and Idra's footsteps.
The problem is sc2 is somewhat established and there are quite a few tournaments. They cant just make huge patches that leave the game imbalanced for some time with all the tournaments going on
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On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 17:50 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 17:39 DoNuTs84 wrote:
wow point 1 about the metagame is like the exactly reason why i quitted Starcraft II. As a Zerg player it feel realllly annoying that the Terran can just stay on T1(Marines)+T2(Widowmines) while as Zerg you basically need both ground and air T3 to deal with it safely(Ultralisks+BroodLords).
Interesting that Blizzard wants to buff Ultralisks but lets be honest it not often Zerg survives the midgame and even get 1 Ultralisk out. Ultralisk buff is good but its not gonna make you survive midgame. Its more the Marine/Widowmine composition that needs to be changed.
Only thing i can come up with that can deal with Marine/Widowmine is the old WoL Infestor where its very hard to Terran to just dodge fungal. That would maybe force terran to actually make other units than BioMine.
Lets be honest again. Protoss would still crush BroodLord/Infestor in HotS(Because of Tempest and Voidrays). Terran would have a harder time beating that...but at least it would make the games interesting again. Well, terrans also need Medivacs which are critical part of sustaining the 4M push. Problem is that there is no other units once you go 4M. It is not like you can make a switch to Air like the zerg. And not sure how you feel that games with Infestor/BL were more interesting. At least with 4M, there are more engagements. Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers. Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push.
Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with.
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On September 02 2013 19:13 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 18:58 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:47 Everlong wrote:On September 02 2013 18:38 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:29 Everlong wrote:On September 02 2013 18:26 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:24 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:22 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:12 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:06 Decendos wrote:
agree 100%. blizz should really buff units that deal with mass units like infestor and viper to deal with MMMM and they should buff them so much that T cant stay on MMMM all game. but since MMMM also is the only way to really win for T they also should then buff tanks and make the transition into mech or air easier by buffing stuff like BC or raven buildtime or removing upgrades like raven energy oder BC energy upgrades, which would also fix the stalemate of TvP with MMMVG since years now. Well, vipers also hard counter tanks right now and so do infested terrans. The tank by itself is not a bad unit but there are just too many hard counters right now (both in vZ and vP). Most ridiculous thing I ever heard. -vikings/ghosts kill vipers. -infested terrans can be dealed with smart placing of turrets and raven. You don't need god-like micro or multitask for it. 2-1 mech timing can hit long before hive. Please, don't talk nonsense about strategies pro players haven't even played yet. Please, have you watched WoL TvZ? What WoL has to do with it? Sorry, but you are completely wrong with Vikings/Ghosts solving issues with Viper while going mech. Either get your facts together or stop speaking your ass off. Mind your speech, we're in civilized world. If we are on facts then tell me why exactly I'm wrong with Vikings/ghosts? Have you got any replays/vods it not working? Or is it your assumption? Alright, we can have a serious discussion. But please, make sure you know what you are talking about. To start it off, I will answer your question. No, I don't have any replays/vods where Terran gets Ghosts to counter Vipers. Vikings do the job just fine, but it is not solving the issue with Viper. We might get to this later. Now, my question. Do you have any replays/vods where it actually does work? P.S: "we're in civilized world" - I'm not sure I agree with that, but that is another discussion. Let me tell you from the beginning. Someone told "mech is unviable, thats why terran uses 4M only". I contradicted and said mech is unexplored area and its possibly viable. Its only assumption, theorycrafting. But my original point is its not proven if mech is unviable. Therefore, its you, who supposed to prove it. Since I'm not claiming anything 100%. P.S: Everyone lives in a world he thinks he lives in. I think you are just wrong. :-) I'll try to explain. "Mech is unexplored area" - THIS is an assumption from your point of view. It is also completely not true. Many, many people have been trying to make it work (even Korean pros) and to some degree and in certain matchups it works (I've made it to high masters EU meching all matchups). And believe me, it is completely explored area. Better players know exactly what to do against mech to abuse it's weakness and force situations where you flat out lose due to those weaknesses. You will win games here and there, sure. But it is absolutely not a reliable playstyle. We can get deeper into that. But I will stop for now, because I don't like how you are forcing me into "its you, who supposed to prove it". No, man, just no.. What on Earth would make you think in such way? It has been proven 1000x times mech is not "viable". It is even acknowledged by Blizzard and you come here to say I'm the one that needs to prove it once more? Also, you live in a world you think you are living in until you face reality.
You wanted serious discussion and say its proven 1000x times that mech is not viable. Then went rambling about your ladder. Don't even know how its relevant. But I'll repeat your exact words: Either get your facts together or stop speaking your ass off.
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On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 17:50 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 17:39 DoNuTs84 wrote:
wow point 1 about the metagame is like the exactly reason why i quitted Starcraft II. As a Zerg player it feel realllly annoying that the Terran can just stay on T1(Marines)+T2(Widowmines) while as Zerg you basically need both ground and air T3 to deal with it safely(Ultralisks+BroodLords).
Interesting that Blizzard wants to buff Ultralisks but lets be honest it not often Zerg survives the midgame and even get 1 Ultralisk out. Ultralisk buff is good but its not gonna make you survive midgame. Its more the Marine/Widowmine composition that needs to be changed.
Only thing i can come up with that can deal with Marine/Widowmine is the old WoL Infestor where its very hard to Terran to just dodge fungal. That would maybe force terran to actually make other units than BioMine.
Lets be honest again. Protoss would still crush BroodLord/Infestor in HotS(Because of Tempest and Voidrays). Terran would have a harder time beating that...but at least it would make the games interesting again. Well, terrans also need Medivacs which are critical part of sustaining the 4M push. Problem is that there is no other units once you go 4M. It is not like you can make a switch to Air like the zerg. And not sure how you feel that games with Infestor/BL were more interesting. At least with 4M, there are more engagements. Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers. Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with.
You are spot on. Once you scout Swarm hosts, you just need to turtle into 20 Ravens and take it to 1h game or go for some silly base trade immidiatelly. Otherwise Zerg will take whole map and throw at you tech switches until you die. I don't feel the need to comment on Vipers shuting down Tanks so insanely. It's even worse then Immortals.
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On September 02 2013 19:26 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 19:13 Everlong wrote:On September 02 2013 18:58 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:47 Everlong wrote:On September 02 2013 18:38 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:29 Everlong wrote:On September 02 2013 18:26 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:24 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:22 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:12 vthree wrote:
[quote]
Well, vipers also hard counter tanks right now and so do infested terrans. The tank by itself is not a bad unit but there are just too many hard counters right now (both in vZ and vP).
Most ridiculous thing I ever heard. -vikings/ghosts kill vipers. -infested terrans can be dealed with smart placing of turrets and raven. You don't need god-like micro or multitask for it. 2-1 mech timing can hit long before hive. Please, don't talk nonsense about strategies pro players haven't even played yet. Please, have you watched WoL TvZ? What WoL has to do with it? Sorry, but you are completely wrong with Vikings/Ghosts solving issues with Viper while going mech. Either get your facts together or stop speaking your ass off. Mind your speech, we're in civilized world. If we are on facts then tell me why exactly I'm wrong with Vikings/ghosts? Have you got any replays/vods it not working? Or is it your assumption? Alright, we can have a serious discussion. But please, make sure you know what you are talking about. To start it off, I will answer your question. No, I don't have any replays/vods where Terran gets Ghosts to counter Vipers. Vikings do the job just fine, but it is not solving the issue with Viper. We might get to this later. Now, my question. Do you have any replays/vods where it actually does work? P.S: "we're in civilized world" - I'm not sure I agree with that, but that is another discussion. Let me tell you from the beginning. Someone told "mech is unviable, thats why terran uses 4M only". I contradicted and said mech is unexplored area and its possibly viable. Its only assumption, theorycrafting. But my original point is its not proven if mech is unviable. Therefore, its you, who supposed to prove it. Since I'm not claiming anything 100%. P.S: Everyone lives in a world he thinks he lives in. I think you are just wrong. :-) I'll try to explain. "Mech is unexplored area" - THIS is an assumption from your point of view. It is also completely not true. Many, many people have been trying to make it work (even Korean pros) and to some degree and in certain matchups it works (I've made it to high masters EU meching all matchups). And believe me, it is completely explored area. Better players know exactly what to do against mech to abuse it's weakness and force situations where you flat out lose due to those weaknesses. You will win games here and there, sure. But it is absolutely not a reliable playstyle. We can get deeper into that. But I will stop for now, because I don't like how you are forcing me into "its you, who supposed to prove it". No, man, just no.. What on Earth would make you think in such way? It has been proven 1000x times mech is not "viable". It is even acknowledged by Blizzard and you come here to say I'm the one that needs to prove it once more? Also, you live in a world you think you are living in until you face reality. You wanted serious discussion and say its proven 1000x times that mech is not viable. Then went rambling about your ladder. Don't even know how its relevant. But I'll repeat your exact words: Either get your facts together or stop speaking your ass off.
Poor Troll, not going to feed you anymore, enjoy your world you are living in. :-)
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On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 17:50 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 17:39 DoNuTs84 wrote:
wow point 1 about the metagame is like the exactly reason why i quitted Starcraft II. As a Zerg player it feel realllly annoying that the Terran can just stay on T1(Marines)+T2(Widowmines) while as Zerg you basically need both ground and air T3 to deal with it safely(Ultralisks+BroodLords).
Interesting that Blizzard wants to buff Ultralisks but lets be honest it not often Zerg survives the midgame and even get 1 Ultralisk out. Ultralisk buff is good but its not gonna make you survive midgame. Its more the Marine/Widowmine composition that needs to be changed.
Only thing i can come up with that can deal with Marine/Widowmine is the old WoL Infestor where its very hard to Terran to just dodge fungal. That would maybe force terran to actually make other units than BioMine.
Lets be honest again. Protoss would still crush BroodLord/Infestor in HotS(Because of Tempest and Voidrays). Terran would have a harder time beating that...but at least it would make the games interesting again. Well, terrans also need Medivacs which are critical part of sustaining the 4M push. Problem is that there is no other units once you go 4M. It is not like you can make a switch to Air like the zerg. And not sure how you feel that games with Infestor/BL were more interesting. At least with 4M, there are more engagements. Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers. Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with.
Dropping helbats onto swarmhosts works pretty well. Can't remember players, but it was a highlevel game.
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On September 02 2013 19:29 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 19:26 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 19:13 Everlong wrote:On September 02 2013 18:58 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:47 Everlong wrote:On September 02 2013 18:38 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:29 Everlong wrote:On September 02 2013 18:26 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:24 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:22 saddaromma wrote:
[quote]
Most ridiculous thing I ever heard.
-vikings/ghosts kill vipers.
-infested terrans can be dealed with smart placing of turrets and raven.
You don't need god-like micro or multitask for it.
2-1 mech timing can hit long before hive.
Please, don't talk nonsense about strategies pro players haven't even played yet. Please, have you watched WoL TvZ? What WoL has to do with it? Sorry, but you are completely wrong with Vikings/Ghosts solving issues with Viper while going mech. Either get your facts together or stop speaking your ass off. Mind your speech, we're in civilized world. If we are on facts then tell me why exactly I'm wrong with Vikings/ghosts? Have you got any replays/vods it not working? Or is it your assumption? Alright, we can have a serious discussion. But please, make sure you know what you are talking about. To start it off, I will answer your question. No, I don't have any replays/vods where Terran gets Ghosts to counter Vipers. Vikings do the job just fine, but it is not solving the issue with Viper. We might get to this later. Now, my question. Do you have any replays/vods where it actually does work? P.S: "we're in civilized world" - I'm not sure I agree with that, but that is another discussion. Let me tell you from the beginning. Someone told "mech is unviable, thats why terran uses 4M only". I contradicted and said mech is unexplored area and its possibly viable. Its only assumption, theorycrafting. But my original point is its not proven if mech is unviable. Therefore, its you, who supposed to prove it. Since I'm not claiming anything 100%. P.S: Everyone lives in a world he thinks he lives in. I think you are just wrong. :-) I'll try to explain. "Mech is unexplored area" - THIS is an assumption from your point of view. It is also completely not true. Many, many people have been trying to make it work (even Korean pros) and to some degree and in certain matchups it works (I've made it to high masters EU meching all matchups). And believe me, it is completely explored area. Better players know exactly what to do against mech to abuse it's weakness and force situations where you flat out lose due to those weaknesses. You will win games here and there, sure. But it is absolutely not a reliable playstyle. We can get deeper into that. But I will stop for now, because I don't like how you are forcing me into "its you, who supposed to prove it". No, man, just no.. What on Earth would make you think in such way? It has been proven 1000x times mech is not "viable". It is even acknowledged by Blizzard and you come here to say I'm the one that needs to prove it once more? Also, you live in a world you think you are living in until you face reality. You wanted serious discussion and say its proven 1000x times that mech is not viable. Then went rambling about your ladder. Don't even know how its relevant. But I'll repeat your exact words: Either get your facts together or stop speaking your ass off. Poor Troll, not going to feed you anymore, enjoy your world you are living in. :-)
Now you're accusing me of trolling. gj.
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...Of course MC would like Faker... BossToss likes BossNinja :D
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On September 02 2013 19:29 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 17:50 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 17:39 DoNuTs84 wrote:
wow point 1 about the metagame is like the exactly reason why i quitted Starcraft II. As a Zerg player it feel realllly annoying that the Terran can just stay on T1(Marines)+T2(Widowmines) while as Zerg you basically need both ground and air T3 to deal with it safely(Ultralisks+BroodLords).
Interesting that Blizzard wants to buff Ultralisks but lets be honest it not often Zerg survives the midgame and even get 1 Ultralisk out. Ultralisk buff is good but its not gonna make you survive midgame. Its more the Marine/Widowmine composition that needs to be changed.
Only thing i can come up with that can deal with Marine/Widowmine is the old WoL Infestor where its very hard to Terran to just dodge fungal. That would maybe force terran to actually make other units than BioMine.
Lets be honest again. Protoss would still crush BroodLord/Infestor in HotS(Because of Tempest and Voidrays). Terran would have a harder time beating that...but at least it would make the games interesting again. Well, terrans also need Medivacs which are critical part of sustaining the 4M push. Problem is that there is no other units once you go 4M. It is not like you can make a switch to Air like the zerg. And not sure how you feel that games with Infestor/BL were more interesting. At least with 4M, there are more engagements. Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers. Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with. Dropping helbats onto swarmhosts works pretty well. Can't remember players, but it was a highlevel game.
But you will have some roach/hydra or muta too (you don't need a lot, 20 supply of them) with swarm hosts which shuts down dropping onto swarm hosts very well. That's simply where ground mech stops working, but Skycompositions are still too far away to get going at that point imo. Not to mention that the Zerg is very often one step ahead of you in terms of skycompositions from a mutalisk or hydralisk midgame + having the vipers to pull skyunits one by one, which means you need quite some vikings first, before you can even start to add in the AtG units to counter the swarm hosts.
The solution is just to make Viper/Swarm Host more even with ground Mech in itself by changing blinding cloud.
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Oh thank god one person in the world who looks on matchups the same way I do. And I do agree PvZ is worlds above TvZ right now, the sheer options in toss and zerg unit compositions is so nice and creates so many different games. TvZ really made me bored of drops, where is the excitement when medivacs fly around every game? His point that drops were way more exciting in bw due to the bigger investement and higher risks of it is soooo nice and true. I think terran is the real issue of hots right now, and I think making mech viable in all matchups would at least add the variety of going mech vs bio back into it. But Blizzard is Blizzard so we may actually have to wait for lotv.
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Thanks for the translation.
I agree with a lot of statements MC makes in his post.
My interest in SCII isn't the same it was in the beginning or even as it was for SCBW, but I hope that the comunity can work things out. There are already many people investing a lot of time and money into SCII. With the help of Blizzard and maybe a slight change of many peoples mindset SCII could be big imo.
Biggest problem imo is the negativity in most people. Balance QQ instead of working on own skills is something that ruins a lot of posibilities for game developers. Imagine you are trying to implement a new balance patch and at least 1/3 of tghe community starts crying and insulting everyone who doesnt play their race...
Decide what you want:
1.)A game that can still develop strategies for years or
2.)a 100% finished game with perfect balance and only one "correct" build order per MU.
I for myself like option 1 more. When I look back to my countless time I spent with SC:BW and how it never got boring at all, I really hope that people see the chance we have with SCII and stop seeing their loss of 12 ladder points as the most important factor when it comes to game development!
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On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 17:50 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 17:39 DoNuTs84 wrote:
wow point 1 about the metagame is like the exactly reason why i quitted Starcraft II. As a Zerg player it feel realllly annoying that the Terran can just stay on T1(Marines)+T2(Widowmines) while as Zerg you basically need both ground and air T3 to deal with it safely(Ultralisks+BroodLords).
Interesting that Blizzard wants to buff Ultralisks but lets be honest it not often Zerg survives the midgame and even get 1 Ultralisk out. Ultralisk buff is good but its not gonna make you survive midgame. Its more the Marine/Widowmine composition that needs to be changed.
Only thing i can come up with that can deal with Marine/Widowmine is the old WoL Infestor where its very hard to Terran to just dodge fungal. That would maybe force terran to actually make other units than BioMine.
Lets be honest again. Protoss would still crush BroodLord/Infestor in HotS(Because of Tempest and Voidrays). Terran would have a harder time beating that...but at least it would make the games interesting again. Well, terrans also need Medivacs which are critical part of sustaining the 4M push. Problem is that there is no other units once you go 4M. It is not like you can make a switch to Air like the zerg. And not sure how you feel that games with Infestor/BL were more interesting. At least with 4M, there are more engagements. Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers. Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with.
I don't think it is as simple as looking at unit comps in straight up fights. Even if mech CAN win a 200/200 engagement with the right comp. The immobility of mech up to that points means you are going to be on 3 bases (4th is too hard to defend from mutas/runbys). The zerg is likely on 5 bases with bank and larvae. Even IF you win a fight, unless you retain like 60% of your units, you just can't rebuild you army like the zerg.
That is why in WoL, Mvp was famous for going mainly mech on 1 map. The map which had 2 chokes leading to 5 bases where he could use planetaries to defend those chokes with tanks behind.
Imagine if you are Protoss with out blink stalkers and storms that can be magic boxed. And see how you can deal with mutas. That is the issue that the mech player faces in the mid game with mutas.
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A lot of progamers that I have met only focus on the internal aspects which are the games and its skills and no one focuses on the external aspects (fan interactions, entertainment value) I believe that internal aspect at the end of the day is the most important, but you are a fucking progamer. you are pro at something, which means, you are nothing at the end of the day if no one remembers you. 20 years from now, do you want to be known as the motherfucking Nestea who created a universe or bosstoss MC? Or just another unknown Korean pro that won a tournament and disappeared into oblivion? (Sting, Seed, Jjakji comes to mind).
Could we take this and the corresponding words of MC and paste it to the walls of Blizzard, Kespa, MLG, NASL and ESL-headquarters? Just to be sure that this point gets heard!
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On September 02 2013 19:40 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 19:29 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 17:50 vthree wrote:
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Well, terrans also need Medivacs which are critical part of sustaining the 4M push. Problem is that there is no other units once you go 4M. It is not like you can make a switch to Air like the zerg. And not sure how you feel that games with Infestor/BL were more interesting. At least with 4M, there are more engagements.
Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers. Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with. Dropping helbats onto swarmhosts works pretty well. Can't remember players, but it was a highlevel game. But you will have some roach/hydra or muta too (you don't need a lot, 20 supply of them) with swarm hosts which shuts down dropping onto swarm hosts very well. That's simply where ground mech stops working, but Skycompositions are still too far away to get going at that point imo. Not to mention that the Zerg is very often one step ahead of you in terms of skycompositions from a mutalisk or hydralisk midgame + having the vipers to pull skyunits one by one, which means you need quite some vikings first, before you can even start to add in the AtG units to counter the swarm hosts. The solution is just to make Viper/Swarm Host more even with ground Mech in itself by changing blinding cloud.
Zerg can simply drop helbats into your base while you're sieging his natural. How you're gonna defend it?
On September 02 2013 19:45 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 19:23 Big J wrote:On September 02 2013 19:06 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:52 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:45 Destructicon wrote:On September 02 2013 18:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 18:01 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 17:50 vthree wrote:On September 02 2013 17:39 DoNuTs84 wrote:
wow point 1 about the metagame is like the exactly reason why i quitted Starcraft II. As a Zerg player it feel realllly annoying that the Terran can just stay on T1(Marines)+T2(Widowmines) while as Zerg you basically need both ground and air T3 to deal with it safely(Ultralisks+BroodLords).
Interesting that Blizzard wants to buff Ultralisks but lets be honest it not often Zerg survives the midgame and even get 1 Ultralisk out. Ultralisk buff is good but its not gonna make you survive midgame. Its more the Marine/Widowmine composition that needs to be changed.
Only thing i can come up with that can deal with Marine/Widowmine is the old WoL Infestor where its very hard to Terran to just dodge fungal. That would maybe force terran to actually make other units than BioMine.
Lets be honest again. Protoss would still crush BroodLord/Infestor in HotS(Because of Tempest and Voidrays). Terran would have a harder time beating that...but at least it would make the games interesting again. Well, terrans also need Medivacs which are critical part of sustaining the 4M push. Problem is that there is no other units once you go 4M. It is not like you can make a switch to Air like the zerg. And not sure how you feel that games with Infestor/BL were more interesting. At least with 4M, there are more engagements. Blizzard: here, we give you single viable strategy for TvZ which is OP btw. It will force more engagements, but eventually terran will win. Because zergs are losers. Players: YaY! What I am trying to say is that the solution probably isn't simply nerf mines! As we saw in Bomber/Scarlett G1, if the zerg can push the parade push back. It is almost impossible for the terran to hold a 4th base even with planetaries. And the zerg just gets more and more mutas and harrasses the terran to death. The only way terrans were keeping the mutas back was by constantly attacking. Blizzard probably has to look into Thors. They simply cannot deal with mutas in a meaningful way right now. Ps at least have blink stalk and storms. How would you know, did any pro ever tried well polished and thought-out mech build vs zerg? No. Because 4M is so good and versatile that they didn't even care to explore mech. WM+Thor+Raven will demolish mutas in couple of volleys, builds and timings need to be learned. But "thanks" to DK, he thinks that mech is dull and forces us to play/watch only bio. This is slightly off topic but no, Mech isn't viable at all, and not because it hasn't been explored, but it just flat out isn't viable. In fact it has been explored multiple times by different people, most notably Mvp. Mech is like a weaker Protoss deathball, is very strong straight up until you get to the appropriate unit composition, but its far, far more immobile and far more susceptible to harass. Just because you don't see mech being tried at all in tournaments doesn't mean its not being explored, considering there are hunderds of Korean pro gamers practicing 40+ games per day I think its a fair bet that at least some of them have tried mech at some point, most notably during HoTS release. To say mech hasn't been explored is incredibly ignorant, its probably been explored as much as sky toss vs BL/Infestor or the fabled Raven transition in TvZ WoL, the reason why you don't see it almost at all is because it just isn't viable. And mech is extremely weak to not only several timings but also to tech switches and SH and Vipers. Even if say players figure out how to survive various zerg timings and tech switches (and both at the same time), it still boils down to mech flat out sucking late game vs SH and Viper. And yes DK is right, mech is dull and is most of the time passive and boring and worst then BL/Infestor, this isn't BW mech, that was tactical, calculated and rewarding. If at all you see mech its as a result of the map being extremely favorable for mech like say Akilon wastes or Newkirk, but that is more the exception, not the rule, and you can't balance mech by making more maps like that because they lead to a very turtly and passive sort of gameplay, and we don't need any more of those. The real travesty though is not taking the appropriate actions to not only make mech viable but also fun and action packed. MVP tried mech back in WoL which is irrelevant now. It hadn't got harass potential of helbat drops, it hadn't got WM to defend far away expansions. Strelok tried mech vs TLO in HOTS and failed. But I don't think its indication it doesn't work. Since it was a new strategy and we know how TLO is comfortable in such situations. If zerg is building lots of swarmhosts, you just build crap ton of ravens. And drop him to death with helbats. Or transition into skyterran. There is a huge room to explore, its not like all figured out. For your information, Mvp played a brilliant game of mech vs Dimaga on Newkirk Precinct (the old map), the the semi-final of the the the WCS EU S1. That says to me that he had practiced it extensively, and now that he isn't using it any more says to me it just isn't viable. Note Mvp still has spine issues, even if its better now then before I doubt he can maintain the same pace all game long, mech was a better fit for him in WoL, it probably is a better fit for him in HoTS as well, he has every practical reason to play more mech then 4M, he has the mind and the mechanics to make it work. Why hasn't Mvp played mech since then? Because it just not viable. The army is too immobile, too expensive and too rigid, oh and its boring. Edit: Banshees vs SH, how amusing, not only do they detract gas from the rest of your army, which is already quite gas intensive, they also get shut down hard by any number of hydras or the token spores brought with the push. Well, though I agree with you that Mech is in general not a good strategy in TvZ, I think it is not far from viable. Basically any form of ground army gets beaten by Tank/Thor and with hellions and hellbat(drops) Mech has a much more stable way to harass zerg than in WoL. The dealbreaker are in my opinion Viper's Blinding Clouds, which just shut down tanklines very efficiently, making Mech very weak to certain timings, but also making it very easy to break a Mechpush in the lategame. Especially the Viper/Swarm Host combo that trades energy+locusts against tanks is just too hard to deal with. I don't think it is as simple as looking at unit comps in straight up fights. Even if mech CAN win a 200/200 engagement with the right comp. The immobility of mech up to that points means you are going to be on 3 bases (4th is too hard to defend from mutas/runbys). The zerg is likely on 5 bases with bank and larvae. Even IF you win a fight, unless you retain like 60% of your units, you just can't rebuild you army like the zerg. That is why in WoL, Mvp was famous for going mainly mech on 1 map. The map which had 2 chokes leading to 5 bases where he could use planetaries to defend those chokes with tanks behind. Imagine if you are Protoss with out blink stalkers and storms that can be magic boxed. And see how you can deal with mutas. That is the issue that the mech player faces in the mid game with mutas.
Except that widow mines are added specifically to defend from runbys and muta harass. WoL analogy is quite irrelevant now.
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And this is why you shouldn't talk about match-ups you don't play; so many simplistic shortcuts about TvZ. Quite sad that he sounds like an ordinary Zerg in the balance discussion thread.
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I would love to use tanks rather than mines in tvz, but they are just too weak, and the maps are too big.
4m is perfectly beatable by good zergs. That is where the exploring is happening now, Scarlett just gave a strong pointer in the right direction at WCS.
I hate that ppl talk about 4m as some a-move op strat! It is really hard to execute, just take a look at the difference from Maru to INnoVation. Mine positions, marinesplits, drops, drop escapes, macro... the skill cap is way up there, and of course the zergs should have to play equally fantastic to beat it.
To the interview: I think he is plain wrong and totally missing the mark. Meta games etc. might look like the answer for progamers, but what about other games having way more players, being FTP and way easier for beginners? Just to get a rough understanding of SC2 you need lots of hours of playing it yourself. You either need a super huge player base, or a game as intuitive as say football to make it take off. So far SC2 gets by having dedicated fans and a strong community.
I personally hate how FTP games try to lure money out of me, but I have accept that is is the new wine:-(
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On September 02 2013 19:53 TheDwf wrote:
And this is why you shouldn't talk about match-ups you don't play; so many simplistic shortcuts about TvZ. Quite sad that he sounds like an ordinary Zerg in the balance discussion thread.
What are you talking about? He is known for offracing Zerg a lot, known for playing Zerg at GM level in Korea (at least he did in 2012) and he was e.g. the trainings partner of Mvp for his WCS EU matches against Dimaga and Stephano.
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EPT
