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I would like Scourge brought back too~~ but mass scourge popping at once would be an issue sooooo...... make it a 'trainable unit' (like marines are trained from a barracks) from the spire...50 min /50 gas / 1 supply / same speed as a phoenix / no AoE / Light Biological / 25 second build time / air attack - 110 dmg / HP 25.
This would solve the TvZ issue by making drops harder to pull off and make other Z compositions more viable whilst not breaking PvZ.
In MC we trust!
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On September 02 2013 14:48 synapse wrote:
tvz does indeed suck balls for zerg
Yeah when Idra complains on his stream I agree with him fully and watching it at pro level it looks really shitty for Zerg haha.
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On September 02 2013 14:46 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:41 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:39 goody153 wrote:On September 02 2013 14:34 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:32 goody153 wrote:On September 02 2013 14:28 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:26 goody153 wrote:On September 02 2013 14:23 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:21 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 02 2013 14:11 saddaromma wrote:
[quote]
load everything into medivac, boost out. Change it so it grounds air units so they cant boost out A simpler resolution is to bring Scourge back. Boost out? Yeah my scourge is ready to 9/11 on your spot where the sun doesn't shine. i think if you were to bring the scourge back you have to change the entire larva mechanic of zerg in sc2 .. imagine producing mass amount of scourges in one instance .. thats how it will happen if it is brought back ... no air would work vs zerg at that state .. unless they balance it out and make scourges cost like 500 gas and 500 min each so that its not gonna be as broken Then change it, and... On September 02 2013 14:26 Nasreth wrote:On September 02 2013 14:23 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:21 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 02 2013 14:11 saddaromma wrote:
[quote]
load everything into medivac, boost out. Change it so it grounds air units so they cant boost out A simpler resolution is to bring Scourge back. Boost out? Yeah my scourge is ready to 9/11 on your spot where the sun doesn't shine. The problem with bringing the scourge back is the impact it would have on ZvP give Pheonix splash damage. dude you cant just change the entire mechanic of zerg thats a lot of balancing and work .. and you also have to change the mechanics of other races to make it balanced just because of scourges
giving pheonix splash is too much .. with its speed + range + buildtime .. i dont think any air would ever work vs protoss that way .. it will be like siege tank that can kite like marines and are ridiculously fast That's when the scourges come into play! i think you dont understand how the sc2 pathing works the scourges will clump no matter what you do .. you cant also micro against it just look at zergling vs mines .. scourge vs phoenix will be harder than that .. .. that scourges cannot touch the pheonixes if you give them splash .. they can just micro their heart out .. small number of pheonix will kill any number of scourges and you forgot to consider how phoenix with splash will affect pvp and pvt in pvp it might be like zvz where it was only muta wars and it will eliminate air vs toss .. you are destroying all matchups that way So are you advocating against micromanaging units? You don't have to hide that no more. Scourge vs Pheonix will produce some high intensity moment in SC2. nope .. im just stating the game will be broken more than ever if they did that .. scourges only worked in sc1 because of the pathing mechanics that really sucked and because zerg cant pump out 70 of them at the same time if they dont have MASS amount of hatcheries and mass amount of resources .. in sc2 you could do that in with just 4 hatcheries with a few queens .. and in sc2 its not impossible since you have like 2000 min per minute in a normal macro game .. and the pathing will make the scourges clumped as fucked that it is either so easy to use or it is so easy to counter .. do you like coinflippy matchups ?
Oh boy you have no idea how gas intensive Scourges are. If you pump 70 of them, that's 35 supplies not spend on any other units right there. Once they see scourge, huge ground push incoming, GG for you.
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On September 02 2013 14:49 p14c wrote:
People are still whining about MMMM in TvZ, but if you force Terran players to go high-tech what is there? All high tier Terran units are useless. It will be an automatic loss. Mech is garbage. End of story. Vipers are too good in countering high tech units.
Well it's not even necessarily the units, there are so many more zvt's out there where the zerg is far ahead, but he makes 1 mistake and a few widow mine shots equalize what should have been a major advantage for zerg.
There are games where zergs are 50-60 food ahead of terran and still lose, people say "god zerg threw the game hard" and yet he tried to end the game and lost. If he sits back and waits to tech that gives terran more then enough time to get back into the game (unless he's like insanely insanely far behind). Terran can fight a 4-5 base zerg on 3 bases for 25-30 minutes before he dries out and loses.
While I do agree mech is garbage, I see no way for it being viable in tvz, right now tvz is just 1-2 build orders.
Terran goes CC first or 1 rax reaper expo into -> MMMM -> does he roach/bane bust? -> did it fail? -> win
Same thing for muta ling bane MMMM -> is he going muta/ling/bane -> normally win in a macro game.
Maybe I am biased (I will admit I am), but most zvt's I see that go into macro games (neither side does anything gimicky or cheesy/allin) the terran wins most of them.
While zvt is more entertaining to watch, the diversity in zvp he is 100% correct about as well.
both sides have a lot of different options, roach/hydra/corruptor, roach/hydra/viper, ultralisk play, ling/infestor/ultra, mutaliks play, swarmhost play
and protoss has a million 2 base all ins, lots of 3 base varations, colossi voidray/ templar/chargelot, immortal/chargelot/templar,etc
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On September 02 2013 14:50 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:43 NoGasfOu wrote:On September 02 2013 14:30 Zambrah wrote:On September 02 2013 14:16 NoGasfOu wrote:On September 02 2013 13:51 Zambrah wrote:On September 02 2013 13:47 NoGasfOu wrote:
MC would be nothing if he has both personality and English but without the 390k under his belt. Nobody would remember him. Good thing he has ALL of those things. And because he manages to have ALL of those things he will be remembered longer than the players who only have one or the other. You're missing the point, MC says having results isnt everything. Connecting with fans is important, if MC didnt make himself so personable and connect with his fans like he does he wouldn't be very popular right now because his results aren't top notch right now. Its a COMBINATION of the two. MC's popularity is a result of his winnings during the 'golden age' of SC2 in which there were a lot more SC2 fans than now. Look at Mvp, Nestea and Flash! None of them has no personality or jack. I've never heard any of them speaking English. The opposite of reaching out to fans can result in a 'rare' product, too, which Kespa has been using all these years on their star players. Once you've exposed yourself out to the fans too much, you're not of a rare star (or product) anymore. Star power can also come from being hard-to-reach by fans. Just look at Jaedong! He's exposing himself too much by streaming and interacting with fans. This morning he typed something in the chat like this: "my fucking 4 hatch" to create interaction with fans. If you compare the current Jaedong to the superstar Jaedong under Kespa who was a 'rare product' and didn't have to do or say silly stuffs to win fans. If you compare the number of viewers he has had when started streaming after leaving a Kespa team with that of present. Just to show you that exposing yourself too much to the fans is not always a good thing. Being 'rare' and not 'reachable' can also make you a superstar. You just need to win a ton of tournaments and things will go your way. Too much interaction with fans can also result in a bad thing. Winning a ton of tournaments isnt really going to happen for most players though, the added popularity mileage gained through learning a phrase or two of english to repeat in an interview can help cement yourself a fanbase. I mean, is Innovation going to have a ton of fans if he stops putting up results? Results aren't everything, fans appreciate the effort taken to convey a pro's personality to them. If you dont win you dont have the opportunity to sell yourself to the community, but if you just win and aren't winning in any notable way or showing any real degree of personability to kind of wind up like aLive. The point is that the combination of skill and personality is the most solid way to go about creating a fanbase and keeping it if you're not going to dominate consistently like very few players are capable. Not like any pro is going to sink super hard in skill level spending a small amount of their free time learning even a single sentence of english to say in an interview. I mean read an LR thread, when a Korean speaks even a few words of english the fans EAT DAT SHIT UP. I've mentioned before, but if you understand Kespa's policy and way of maintaining a superstar and raise the value of their 'products' vs that of being a personality or superstar in a foreigner way. If you understand the results of these different ways of creating and maintaining fan base, you will know what I mean. You have two choices: Being a star in the foreigner way or being a star in the Kespa way. You can analyze the popularity, the professionalism, the benefits of each of two sides just by looking at past results for yourself. I didn't watch Broodwar so I have no idea what KeSPA's policies with regards to promoting their stars are. If Im just looking at results of the "foreigner way" and the "KesPA way" they BOTH seem to work. MC is the greatest example of someone maintaining stardom the "foreigner way." Polt is another highly successful example of someone being a star in the "foreigner way." I don't understand what you're trying to tell me here, is it that the "foreigner way" is less professional, leaves players less popular, and is less beneficial than the "KeSPA way?" I'm taking "KeSPA way" to mean to solely show results, and the "foreigner way" to mean attempting interviews in English and fan interaction and what not.
MC was Iron from Kespa. He didn't became popular due to having a "personality", he trained his asses off to become a champ and THEN he worked on personality to further bolster his "star power".
In terms of priorities, you must always set them straight as results weigh more than being able to trashtalk or joke properly in the realm of StarCraft.
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On September 02 2013 14:53 AxiomBlurr wrote:
I would like Scourge brought back too~~ but mass scourge popping at once would be an issue sooooo...... make it a 'trainable unit' (like marines are trained from a barracks) from the spire...50 min /50 gas / 1 supply / same speed as a phoenix / no AoE / Light Biological / 25 second build time / air attack - 110 dmg / HP 25.
This would solve the TvZ issue by making drops harder to pull off and make other Z compositions more viable whilst not breaking PvZ.
In MC we trust!
Maybe they can do something with Infestors and make them spawn some sort of scourge-like AA (replacing Infested Terrans).
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mc should not be talking about TvZ omg, he is not playing either of one races...
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On September 02 2013 14:55 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:46 goody153 wrote:On September 02 2013 14:41 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:39 goody153 wrote:On September 02 2013 14:34 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:32 goody153 wrote:On September 02 2013 14:28 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:26 goody153 wrote:On September 02 2013 14:23 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:21 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
Change it so it grounds air units so they cant boost out A simpler resolution is to bring Scourge back. Boost out? Yeah my scourge is ready to 9/11 on your spot where the sun doesn't shine. i think if you were to bring the scourge back you have to change the entire larva mechanic of zerg in sc2 .. imagine producing mass amount of scourges in one instance .. thats how it will happen if it is brought back ... no air would work vs zerg at that state .. unless they balance it out and make scourges cost like 500 gas and 500 min each so that its not gonna be as broken Then change it, and... On September 02 2013 14:26 Nasreth wrote:On September 02 2013 14:23 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:21 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
Change it so it grounds air units so they cant boost out A simpler resolution is to bring Scourge back. Boost out? Yeah my scourge is ready to 9/11 on your spot where the sun doesn't shine. The problem with bringing the scourge back is the impact it would have on ZvP give Pheonix splash damage. dude you cant just change the entire mechanic of zerg thats a lot of balancing and work .. and you also have to change the mechanics of other races to make it balanced just because of scourges
giving pheonix splash is too much .. with its speed + range + buildtime .. i dont think any air would ever work vs protoss that way .. it will be like siege tank that can kite like marines and are ridiculously fast That's when the scourges come into play! i think you dont understand how the sc2 pathing works the scourges will clump no matter what you do .. you cant also micro against it just look at zergling vs mines .. scourge vs phoenix will be harder than that .. .. that scourges cannot touch the pheonixes if you give them splash .. they can just micro their heart out .. small number of pheonix will kill any number of scourges and you forgot to consider how phoenix with splash will affect pvp and pvt in pvp it might be like zvz where it was only muta wars and it will eliminate air vs toss .. you are destroying all matchups that way So are you advocating against micromanaging units? You don't have to hide that no more. Scourge vs Pheonix will produce some high intensity moment in SC2. nope .. im just stating the game will be broken more than ever if they did that .. scourges only worked in sc1 because of the pathing mechanics that really sucked and because zerg cant pump out 70 of them at the same time if they dont have MASS amount of hatcheries and mass amount of resources .. in sc2 you could do that in with just 4 hatcheries with a few queens .. and in sc2 its not impossible since you have like 2000 min per minute in a normal macro game .. and the pathing will make the scourges clumped as fucked that it is either so easy to use or it is so easy to counter .. do you like coinflippy matchups ? Oh boy you have no idea how gas intensive Scourges are. If you pump 70 of them, that's 35 supplies not spend on any other units right there. Once they see scourge, huge ground push incoming, GG for you.
dont take it literally about pumping 70 scourges .. i was just stating how powerful larva mechanic is for zerg .. unless you make it work like in queue like purchasing a queen or marines
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On September 02 2013 15:00 NovusRex wrote:
mc should not be talking about TvZ omg, he is not playing either of one races...
And MC is not a pro player with an extremely high understanding of the game...with plenty of pro-level friends and associates who cumulatively play all the MUs...I guess he also hasn't been playing RTS games for many years, either, come to think of it...
And MC is also not at all echoed by a large percentage of other players who think that the current state of ZvT is ridiculous...
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On September 02 2013 15:00 NovusRex wrote:
mc should not be talking about TvZ omg, he is not playing either of one races...
Well, it is pretty well known that players like Mvp, MC (and others) off race at a very high level (KR masters/GM). He is probably more knowledgable then 99% of these forums on ALL matchups.
The fact that he doesn't play these races COMPETITIVELY actually gives him less reason to be bias.
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On September 02 2013 14:58 ssxsilver wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:53 AxiomBlurr wrote:
I would like Scourge brought back too~~ but mass scourge popping at once would be an issue sooooo...... make it a 'trainable unit' (like marines are trained from a barracks) from the spire...50 min /50 gas / 1 supply / same speed as a phoenix / no AoE / Light Biological / 25 second build time / air attack - 110 dmg / HP 25.
This would solve the TvZ issue by making drops harder to pull off and make other Z compositions more viable whilst not breaking PvZ.
In MC we trust!
Maybe they can do something with Infestors and make them spawn some sort of scourge-like AA (replacing Infested Terrans).
that could work .. or make scourges be made like how marines/queens/marauders/you-get-my-point not in a larvae
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That was a very inspiring post from MC. Hope is not lost yet.
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On September 02 2013 15:03 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 15:00 NovusRex wrote:
mc should not be talking about TvZ omg, he is not playing either of one races... Well, it is pretty well known that players like Mvp, MC (and others) off race at a very high level (KR masters/GM). He is probably more knowledgable then 99% of these forums on ALL matchups. The fact that he doesn't play these races COMPETITIVELY actually gives him less reason to be bias.
edit this .. its not doesnt .. its does
so that people wont misunderstand this
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On September 02 2013 14:58 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:50 Zambrah wrote:On September 02 2013 14:43 NoGasfOu wrote:On September 02 2013 14:30 Zambrah wrote:On September 02 2013 14:16 NoGasfOu wrote:On September 02 2013 13:51 Zambrah wrote:On September 02 2013 13:47 NoGasfOu wrote:
MC would be nothing if he has both personality and English but without the 390k under his belt. Nobody would remember him. Good thing he has ALL of those things. And because he manages to have ALL of those things he will be remembered longer than the players who only have one or the other. You're missing the point, MC says having results isnt everything. Connecting with fans is important, if MC didnt make himself so personable and connect with his fans like he does he wouldn't be very popular right now because his results aren't top notch right now. Its a COMBINATION of the two. MC's popularity is a result of his winnings during the 'golden age' of SC2 in which there were a lot more SC2 fans than now. Look at Mvp, Nestea and Flash! None of them has no personality or jack. I've never heard any of them speaking English. The opposite of reaching out to fans can result in a 'rare' product, too, which Kespa has been using all these years on their star players. Once you've exposed yourself out to the fans too much, you're not of a rare star (or product) anymore. Star power can also come from being hard-to-reach by fans. Just look at Jaedong! He's exposing himself too much by streaming and interacting with fans. This morning he typed something in the chat like this: "my fucking 4 hatch" to create interaction with fans. If you compare the current Jaedong to the superstar Jaedong under Kespa who was a 'rare product' and didn't have to do or say silly stuffs to win fans. If you compare the number of viewers he has had when started streaming after leaving a Kespa team with that of present. Just to show you that exposing yourself too much to the fans is not always a good thing. Being 'rare' and not 'reachable' can also make you a superstar. You just need to win a ton of tournaments and things will go your way. Too much interaction with fans can also result in a bad thing. Winning a ton of tournaments isnt really going to happen for most players though, the added popularity mileage gained through learning a phrase or two of english to repeat in an interview can help cement yourself a fanbase. I mean, is Innovation going to have a ton of fans if he stops putting up results? Results aren't everything, fans appreciate the effort taken to convey a pro's personality to them. If you dont win you dont have the opportunity to sell yourself to the community, but if you just win and aren't winning in any notable way or showing any real degree of personability to kind of wind up like aLive. The point is that the combination of skill and personality is the most solid way to go about creating a fanbase and keeping it if you're not going to dominate consistently like very few players are capable. Not like any pro is going to sink super hard in skill level spending a small amount of their free time learning even a single sentence of english to say in an interview. I mean read an LR thread, when a Korean speaks even a few words of english the fans EAT DAT SHIT UP. I've mentioned before, but if you understand Kespa's policy and way of maintaining a superstar and raise the value of their 'products' vs that of being a personality or superstar in a foreigner way. If you understand the results of these different ways of creating and maintaining fan base, you will know what I mean. You have two choices: Being a star in the foreigner way or being a star in the Kespa way. You can analyze the popularity, the professionalism, the benefits of each of two sides just by looking at past results for yourself. I didn't watch Broodwar so I have no idea what KeSPA's policies with regards to promoting their stars are. If Im just looking at results of the "foreigner way" and the "KesPA way" they BOTH seem to work. MC is the greatest example of someone maintaining stardom the "foreigner way." Polt is another highly successful example of someone being a star in the "foreigner way." I don't understand what you're trying to tell me here, is it that the "foreigner way" is less professional, leaves players less popular, and is less beneficial than the "KeSPA way?" I'm taking "KeSPA way" to mean to solely show results, and the "foreigner way" to mean attempting interviews in English and fan interaction and what not. MC was Iron from Kespa. He didn't became popular due to having a "personality", he trained his asses off to become a champ and THEN he worked on personality to further bolster his "star power". In terms of priorities, you must always set them straight as results weigh more than being able to trashtalk or joke properly in the realm of StarCraft.
Okay, I'll say it again, ITS A MATTER OF BOTH. Its not like you have to rearrange your priorities to become a good personality, ONE SENTENCE OF ENGLISH will seriously suffice, one single sentence repeated in an interview is all the commitment it takes. Not every player can winwinwinwinwin constantly, being able to say a few words of English does a lot to help someone foster and maintain a fanbase. Its not like I'm trying to say that every player needs to enroll in English classes three times a week for six hours a session.
This is my overall point:
Interacting with your fanbase does not require a heavy commitment. It will help players gain and maintain their fanbase. Its worth learning a sentence of english for the benefits to popularity. A combination of results and personality will result in more fans than just one or the other.
I don't know why people are assuming that I think results are unimportant. :|
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China6331 Posts
On September 02 2013 15:03 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 15:00 NovusRex wrote:
mc should not be talking about TvZ omg, he is not playing either of one races... Well, it is pretty well known that players like Mvp, MC (and others) off race at a very high level (KR masters/GM). He is probably more knowledgable then 99% of these forums on ALL matchups. The fact that he doesn't play these races COMPETITIVELY actually gives him less reason to be bias.
Go watch MC playing Zerg against LosirA in the 2011 GSL August Code S final pre-game showmatch, his mechanics are amazing, some even say his Zerg at that time is Code S level.
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MC is the man. speaking for the people
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On September 02 2013 15:02 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:55 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:46 goody153 wrote:On September 02 2013 14:41 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:39 goody153 wrote:On September 02 2013 14:34 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:32 goody153 wrote:On September 02 2013 14:28 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:26 goody153 wrote:On September 02 2013 14:23 Xiphos wrote:
[quote]
A simpler resolution is to bring Scourge back.
Boost out? Yeah my scourge is ready to 9/11 on your spot where the sun doesn't shine. i think if you were to bring the scourge back you have to change the entire larva mechanic of zerg in sc2 .. imagine producing mass amount of scourges in one instance .. thats how it will happen if it is brought back ... no air would work vs zerg at that state .. unless they balance it out and make scourges cost like 500 gas and 500 min each so that its not gonna be as broken Then change it, and... On September 02 2013 14:26 Nasreth wrote:On September 02 2013 14:23 Xiphos wrote:
[quote]
A simpler resolution is to bring Scourge back.
Boost out? Yeah my scourge is ready to 9/11 on your spot where the sun doesn't shine. The problem with bringing the scourge back is the impact it would have on ZvP give Pheonix splash damage. dude you cant just change the entire mechanic of zerg thats a lot of balancing and work .. and you also have to change the mechanics of other races to make it balanced just because of scourges
giving pheonix splash is too much .. with its speed + range + buildtime .. i dont think any air would ever work vs protoss that way .. it will be like siege tank that can kite like marines and are ridiculously fast That's when the scourges come into play! i think you dont understand how the sc2 pathing works the scourges will clump no matter what you do .. you cant also micro against it just look at zergling vs mines .. scourge vs phoenix will be harder than that .. .. that scourges cannot touch the pheonixes if you give them splash .. they can just micro their heart out .. small number of pheonix will kill any number of scourges and you forgot to consider how phoenix with splash will affect pvp and pvt in pvp it might be like zvz where it was only muta wars and it will eliminate air vs toss .. you are destroying all matchups that way So are you advocating against micromanaging units? You don't have to hide that no more. Scourge vs Pheonix will produce some high intensity moment in SC2. nope .. im just stating the game will be broken more than ever if they did that .. scourges only worked in sc1 because of the pathing mechanics that really sucked and because zerg cant pump out 70 of them at the same time if they dont have MASS amount of hatcheries and mass amount of resources .. in sc2 you could do that in with just 4 hatcheries with a few queens .. and in sc2 its not impossible since you have like 2000 min per minute in a normal macro game .. and the pathing will make the scourges clumped as fucked that it is either so easy to use or it is so easy to counter .. do you like coinflippy matchups ? Oh boy you have no idea how gas intensive Scourges are. If you pump 70 of them, that's 35 supplies not spend on any other units right there. Once they see scourge, huge ground push incoming, GG for you. dont take it literally about pumping 70 scourges .. i was just stating how powerful larva mechanic is for zerg .. unless you make it work like in queue like purchasing a queen or marines
The point is that Zerg heavily relies on Gas. Really, you are going to spend 2625 Gas JUST for scourges? You are going to abort plans of making any other units for ground defence? One can even make the same comment on Zerglings, another expendable units with even more destructive potential than Scourge and at a lower price too but somehow fits perfectly fine into the sequel.
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On September 02 2013 15:00 NovusRex wrote:
mc should not be talking about TvZ omg, he is not playing either of one races...
Rofl.
Just because MC doesn't play T or Z in tournaments doesn't mean:
A) He has no clue
B) He doesn't off race. He i probably is pretty high in KR league in T/Z. Way higher than most posters here making comment on balance and game design.
I'd say his pro status and GSL titles gives him the right to say something about all races in SC2.
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EPT
