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I agree. i love tvz. it has always been the most fun to play and watch. i have fairly good mechanics for my level, and i could be a lot higher if i only went bio mine, but i dont find it as fun. ive going 2 fact blue flame, then into bio marine atacks, then into full on bio bat. i go mech sometimes, go to weird openings. i like having fun.
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On September 02 2013 14:15 Zenbrez wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:12 Die4Ever wrote:On September 02 2013 14:07 Zenbrez wrote:
It bothers me that on TL we're not allowed to call any imbalances, even when it's clearly happening. WoL pvz inbalance? NOPE, if you dare call brood infestor OP, you're banned. When HoTs came out, Wol didn't matter and everybody can easily say it was broken. What's the problem with this? TvZ right now is (more than a little) in the terran's favor. It's not unwinnable, as MC says - the zerg always has a chance to win the game, but the mistake it takes a zerg to "throw" it is a fraction of what it takes for the terran to lose it. I'm not angry about it, I even main terran, but it's just a little sad to watch sometimes (MC mentions this as a contribution to why it's not so popular)
Either way, that wasn't the core of MC's post, but which I do agree with. Unfortunately we can only rely on what Blizzard does to help the game grow. I'll continue to watch it because I love it, "the game is dying" isn't something I really care about or agree with, but it's certainly losing its position. there's a dedicated thread for balance, but balance whine really does ruin LR threads and many other threads too http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254 That's true I suppose. And I do agree, LR threads can get littered and it just becomes depressing to read, so I do agree rules should be in place. Butttttttttttttttttt as I type this, I guess I agree nothing should really change lol. Carry on.
When one player wins due to imbalance, everyone should pretend the game was awesome and the better player won by totally outplaying the other, thats how LR threads work these days. It feels like you're in some kind of dictatorship country where you have to pretend you're happy or they'll hang you.
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How did he find TvZ to be so boring when...
TvP has been screaming for 3 fucking years .......... I am the same thing everytime!......... Ten patches after release??? Same
Oh Cool bro new expo pack?!?!?!?!? TvP???????? SAME!
Whats messed up is that passed just going for the same composition (which is boring enough) its literally the same god damn opening tactics there's no deviation here either. 10 min pressure protoss, if you did dmg you win, if you didnt you lose.
3 years...................................................................................................................................................................
Yes TvZ is bad right now but, when you look at the overall states of MU's TvZ has had many revolutions while TvP has not........
If they fixed TvP and made a play style OTHER than bio it might be worth playing sc2 because at least TvZ would be micro intensive, and TvP would actually require a skill besides stutter stepping.
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On September 02 2013 14:11 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:08 ne4aJIb wrote:
add defilers to zerg, marines problem solved ;; load everything into medivac, boost out.
Change it so it grounds air units so they cant boost out
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almost everyone is saying that tvz is either broken or boring .. i love the matchup so match .. it has been my favorite since i started playing sc .. i hope blizz really makes this better ..
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Blizzard, Progamers and the Community have to work to improve Starcraft2?
This will never happen...just look at the Dota2 Fanbase growing everyday. The Community just wants to consume...there are to few people that put hard work in SC2 at the moment.
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T.O.P
469 Posts
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On September 02 2013 14:21 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:11 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 14:08 ne4aJIb wrote:
add defilers to zerg, marines problem solved ;; load everything into medivac, boost out. Change it so it grounds air units so they cant boost out
A simpler resolution is to bring Scourge back.
Boost out? Yeah my scourge is ready to 9/11 on your spot where the sun doesn't shine.
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On September 02 2013 14:01 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:55 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 13:49 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 13:43 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 13:42 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 13:34 Arco wrote:
It's kind of mind boggling how David Kim hasn't figured out the key to fixing TvZ without nerfing Terran lies in the Infestor.
It was a crucial unit in bridging the gap from Lair to Hive tech in WoL. Vortix has said the Infestor needs a buff for TvZ. Now MC says it. I think they could do something like add a +Biological damage tag to Fungal Growth. Funny thing is, that might help with reducing Mutalisk usage in ZvZ too, since that's what they wanted. Additionally, maybe they could make Fungal Growth prevent Widow Mines from firing. Maybe this will actually force Terran to build some Siege Tanks to deal with Infestors, like Lurkers forced Siege Tanks in BW.
They should also take the flying attack away from Widow Mines to encourage Mutalisk harassment and make engaging Bio/Mine armies with Mutalisks less risky.
It'd be nice to buff/rework Zerg abilities/units that actually force Terran to build something other than Biomine. In Brood War once you reached the very late game, a mech transition was favorable so you could use Spider Mines and Siege Tanks to help deal with Ultralisks/Dark Swarm. Maybe do something so that Terran needs to incorporate Ravens into their composition earlier than
Finally, I'd like to see Scourge in LotV. This will allow for Zerg players to play more aggressive with their Mutalisks instead of having to take a map control/defensive stance to stop drops. I think there is only one problem in current situation - David Kim. He failed in WoL and failing in HoTS. We need some talented and creative guy to replace him in order to save sc2. GUYS stop pitch forking vs David Kim, he isn't DESIGNING the game. Blame Dustin Browder! He makes decisions regarding design choices. isn't he who's forcing bio/mine like no other day and Believing that the faster units run and die, the better the esports? Last time I checked he was a senior designer. And Dustin Browder is a more of a community guy who just leads his team and concerned about campaign and battle.net. DK directly works on multiplayer and decides how it should be. And his latest interviews showed that he has different views than the community's. Honestly, I don't really think Blizzard really care about SC2 anymore as they ain't making money from it anymore. Yes they still have LotV to come out but jusdging from the looks of it, HotS is just WoL with newly designed unit from the Editor and shuffled the balance stats there and there, work that can be done under a week by an above average programmer (But gotta admit that the cinematic were awe-inspiring). So for LotV, all they need is a minuscule task force that get paid for couple of thousands but in end, the game will still be a able to sell decently. Any surplus work the do is just more money they are losing. I hope they prove that statement wrong though but I wouldn't bet on it. Icefrog singlehandedly thrived dota back in wc3. I think if we put similar talented guy as head of multiplayer designer he could fix everything and make sc2 much better. Balancing is simple technically, changing numbers on SC2 Editor. You just have to make right decisions, and whoever is doing it in Blizzard is obviously failing right now.
I think SC2 needs more than just changing some #s to try get balance in order
I think SC2 needs better & interesting units to watch and play to make SC2 better
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This is awesome, thank you so much. Very good read.
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On September 02 2013 14:23 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:21 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 02 2013 14:11 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 14:08 ne4aJIb wrote:
add defilers to zerg, marines problem solved ;; load everything into medivac, boost out. Change it so it grounds air units so they cant boost out A simpler resolution is to bring Scourge back. Boost out? Yeah my scourge is ready to 9/11 on your spot where the sun doesn't shine.
The problem with bringing the scourge back is the impact it would have on ZvP
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On September 02 2013 14:23 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:21 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 02 2013 14:11 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 14:08 ne4aJIb wrote:
add defilers to zerg, marines problem solved ;; load everything into medivac, boost out. Change it so it grounds air units so they cant boost out A simpler resolution is to bring Scourge back. Boost out? Yeah my scourge is ready to 9/11 on your spot where the sun doesn't shine.
i think if you were to bring the scourge back you have to change the entire larva mechanic of zerg in sc2 ..
imagine producing mass amount of scourges in one instance .. thats how it will happen if it is brought back ... no air would work vs zerg at that state .. unless they balance it out and make scourges cost like 500 gas and 500 min each so that its not gonna be as broken
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On September 02 2013 14:19 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:16 NoGasfOu wrote:On September 02 2013 13:51 Zambrah wrote:On September 02 2013 13:47 NoGasfOu wrote:
MC would be nothing if he has both personality and English but without the 390k under his belt. Nobody would remember him. Good thing he has ALL of those things. And because he manages to have ALL of those things he will be remembered longer than the players who only have one or the other. You're missing the point, MC says having results isnt everything. Connecting with fans is important, if MC didnt make himself so personable and connect with his fans like he does he wouldn't be very popular right now because his results aren't top notch right now. Its a COMBINATION of the two. MC's popularity is a result of his winnings during the 'golden age' of SC2 in which there were a lot more SC2 fans than now. Look at Mvp, Nestea and Flash! None of them has no personality or jack. I've never heard any of them speaking English. The opposite of reaching out to fans can result in a 'rare' product, too, which Kespa has been using all these years on their star players. Once you've exposed yourself out to the fans too much, you're not of a rare star (or product) anymore. Star power can also come from being hard-to-reach by fans. Just look at Jaedong! He's exposing himself too much by streaming and interacting with fans. This morning he typed something in the chat like this: "my fucking 4 hatch" to create interaction with fans. If you compare the current Jaedong to the superstar Jaedong under Kespa who was a 'rare product' and didn't have to do or say silly stuffs to win fans. If you compare the number of viewers he has had when started streaming after leaving a Kespa team with that of present. Just to show you that exposing yourself too much to the fans is not always a good thing. Being 'rare' and not 'reachable' can also make you a superstar. You just need to win a ton of tournaments and things will go your way. Too much interaction with fans can also result in a bad thing. i think he wasnt interacting .. he was typing out his frustration
Either way, he's gaining his 'personality' power, but losing 'star' power.
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On September 02 2013 14:24 udgnim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:01 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 13:55 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 13:49 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 13:43 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 13:42 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 13:34 Arco wrote:
It's kind of mind boggling how David Kim hasn't figured out the key to fixing TvZ without nerfing Terran lies in the Infestor.
It was a crucial unit in bridging the gap from Lair to Hive tech in WoL. Vortix has said the Infestor needs a buff for TvZ. Now MC says it. I think they could do something like add a +Biological damage tag to Fungal Growth. Funny thing is, that might help with reducing Mutalisk usage in ZvZ too, since that's what they wanted. Additionally, maybe they could make Fungal Growth prevent Widow Mines from firing. Maybe this will actually force Terran to build some Siege Tanks to deal with Infestors, like Lurkers forced Siege Tanks in BW.
They should also take the flying attack away from Widow Mines to encourage Mutalisk harassment and make engaging Bio/Mine armies with Mutalisks less risky.
It'd be nice to buff/rework Zerg abilities/units that actually force Terran to build something other than Biomine. In Brood War once you reached the very late game, a mech transition was favorable so you could use Spider Mines and Siege Tanks to help deal with Ultralisks/Dark Swarm. Maybe do something so that Terran needs to incorporate Ravens into their composition earlier than
Finally, I'd like to see Scourge in LotV. This will allow for Zerg players to play more aggressive with their Mutalisks instead of having to take a map control/defensive stance to stop drops. I think there is only one problem in current situation - David Kim. He failed in WoL and failing in HoTS. We need some talented and creative guy to replace him in order to save sc2. GUYS stop pitch forking vs David Kim, he isn't DESIGNING the game. Blame Dustin Browder! He makes decisions regarding design choices. isn't he who's forcing bio/mine like no other day and Believing that the faster units run and die, the better the esports? Last time I checked he was a senior designer. And Dustin Browder is a more of a community guy who just leads his team and concerned about campaign and battle.net. DK directly works on multiplayer and decides how it should be. And his latest interviews showed that he has different views than the community's. Honestly, I don't really think Blizzard really care about SC2 anymore as they ain't making money from it anymore. Yes they still have LotV to come out but jusdging from the looks of it, HotS is just WoL with newly designed unit from the Editor and shuffled the balance stats there and there, work that can be done under a week by an above average programmer (But gotta admit that the cinematic were awe-inspiring). So for LotV, all they need is a minuscule task force that get paid for couple of thousands but in end, the game will still be a able to sell decently. Any surplus work the do is just more money they are losing. I hope they prove that statement wrong though but I wouldn't bet on it. Icefrog singlehandedly thrived dota back in wc3. I think if we put similar talented guy as head of multiplayer designer he could fix everything and make sc2 much better. Balancing is simple technically, changing numbers on SC2 Editor. You just have to make right decisions, and whoever is doing it in Blizzard is obviously failing right now. I think SC2 needs more than just changing some #s to try get balance in order I think SC2 needs better & interesting units to watch and play to make SC2 better
the problem is the balance team thinks its interesting when it is fast paced rather than having variety and tactics .. oh how i loved the 2011 tvz
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On September 02 2013 14:26 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:23 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:21 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 02 2013 14:11 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 14:08 ne4aJIb wrote:
add defilers to zerg, marines problem solved ;; load everything into medivac, boost out. Change it so it grounds air units so they cant boost out A simpler resolution is to bring Scourge back. Boost out? Yeah my scourge is ready to 9/11 on your spot where the sun doesn't shine. i think if you were to bring the scourge back you have to change the entire larva mechanic of zerg in sc2 .. imagine producing mass amount of scourges in one instance .. thats how it will happen if it is brought back ... no air would work vs zerg at that state .. unless they balance it out and make scourges cost like 500 gas and 500 min each so that its not gonna be as broken
With how great AI is in SC2 you can just a-move flock of scourges to take out all medivacs and colossi :D.
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On September 02 2013 14:26 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:23 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:21 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 02 2013 14:11 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 14:08 ne4aJIb wrote:
add defilers to zerg, marines problem solved ;; load everything into medivac, boost out. Change it so it grounds air units so they cant boost out A simpler resolution is to bring Scourge back. Boost out? Yeah my scourge is ready to 9/11 on your spot where the sun doesn't shine. i think if you were to bring the scourge back you have to change the entire larva mechanic of zerg in sc2 .. imagine producing mass amount of scourges in one instance .. thats how it will happen if it is brought back ... no air would work vs zerg at that state .. unless they balance it out and make scourges cost like 500 gas and 500 min each so that its not gonna be as broken
Then change it,
and...
On September 02 2013 14:26 Nasreth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:23 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:21 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 02 2013 14:11 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 14:08 ne4aJIb wrote:
add defilers to zerg, marines problem solved ;; load everything into medivac, boost out. Change it so it grounds air units so they cant boost out A simpler resolution is to bring Scourge back. Boost out? Yeah my scourge is ready to 9/11 on your spot where the sun doesn't shine. The problem with bringing the scourge back is the impact it would have on ZvP
give Pheonix splash damage.
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I've noticed that I find myself skipping games and/or tournaments entirely very often these days, even if they involve my favorite players... something that I wouldn't have done a couple of years ago.
It's very sad to see the game that was supposed to carry the torch of BW reduced to a small niche in Korea while some other one appears to be true successor, I guess you can't force a game to become an #esport without it being popular or appealing to the masses first.
Thank you based Terry!
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On September 02 2013 14:16 NoGasfOu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:51 Zambrah wrote:On September 02 2013 13:47 NoGasfOu wrote:
MC would be nothing if he has both personality and English but without the 390k under his belt. Nobody would remember him. Good thing he has ALL of those things. And because he manages to have ALL of those things he will be remembered longer than the players who only have one or the other. You're missing the point, MC says having results isnt everything. Connecting with fans is important, if MC didnt make himself so personable and connect with his fans like he does he wouldn't be very popular right now because his results aren't top notch right now. Its a COMBINATION of the two. MC's popularity is a result of his winnings during the 'golden age' of SC2 in which there were a lot more SC2 fans than now. Look at Mvp, Nestea and Flash! None of them has no personality or jack. I've never heard any of them speaking English. The opposite of reaching out to fans can result in a 'rare' product, too, which Kespa has been using all these years on their star players. Once you've exposed yourself out to the fans too much, you're not of a rare star (or product) anymore. Star power can also come from being hard-to-reach by fans. Just look at Jaedong! He's exposing himself too much by streaming and interacting with fans. This morning he typed something in the chat like this: "my fucking 4 hatch" to create interaction with fans. If you compare the current Jaedong to the superstar Jaedong under Kespa who was a 'rare product' and didn't have to do or say silly stuffs to win fans. If you compare the number of viewers he has had when started streaming after leaving a Kespa team with that of present. Just to show you that exposing yourself too much to the fans is not always a good thing. Being 'rare' and not 'reachable' can also make you a superstar. You just need to win a ton of tournaments and things will go your way. Too much interaction with fans can also result in a bad thing.
Winning a ton of tournaments isnt really going to happen for most players though, the added popularity mileage gained through learning a phrase or two of english to repeat in an interview can help cement yourself a fanbase. I mean, is Innovation going to have a ton of fans if he stops putting up results? Results aren't everything, fans appreciate the effort taken to convey a pro's personality to them.
If you dont win you dont have the opportunity to sell yourself to the community, but if you just win and aren't winning in any notable way or showing any real degree of personability to kind of wind up like aLive.
The point is that the combination of skill and personality is the most solid way to go about creating a fanbase and keeping it if you're not going to dominate consistently like very few players are capable. Not like any pro is going to sink super hard in skill level spending a small amount of their free time learning even a single sentence of english to say in an interview. I mean read an LR thread, when a Korean speaks even a few words of english the fans EAT DAT SHIT UP.
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On September 02 2013 14:22 cutler wrote:
Blizzard, Progamers and the Community have to work to improve Starcraft2?
This will never happen...just look at the Dota2 Fanbase growing everyday. The Community just wants to consume...there are to few people that put hard work in SC2 at the moment.
Spot on, when you have millions of people spending there time writing guides, playing non-stop during free time,
I like the idea of consuming the game, that is the sign of a good game. Reminds me of the good Wc3 days specifically on the WCreplays.com. You wouldnt find any threads like "Elephant in the room", or WC3 SHOULD BE LIKE WC2. It was just full of people focusing every bit of there freetime on a game that they truly loved. Sure there was some balance whines here and there was nothing in that game that was like what we have with SC2
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On September 02 2013 14:28 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:26 goody153 wrote:On September 02 2013 14:23 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:21 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 02 2013 14:11 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 14:08 ne4aJIb wrote:
add defilers to zerg, marines problem solved ;; load everything into medivac, boost out. Change it so it grounds air units so they cant boost out A simpler resolution is to bring Scourge back. Boost out? Yeah my scourge is ready to 9/11 on your spot where the sun doesn't shine. i think if you were to bring the scourge back you have to change the entire larva mechanic of zerg in sc2 .. imagine producing mass amount of scourges in one instance .. thats how it will happen if it is brought back ... no air would work vs zerg at that state .. unless they balance it out and make scourges cost like 500 gas and 500 min each so that its not gonna be as broken Then change it, and... Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:26 Nasreth wrote:On September 02 2013 14:23 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:21 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 02 2013 14:11 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 14:08 ne4aJIb wrote:
add defilers to zerg, marines problem solved ;; load everything into medivac, boost out. Change it so it grounds air units so they cant boost out A simpler resolution is to bring Scourge back. Boost out? Yeah my scourge is ready to 9/11 on your spot where the sun doesn't shine. The problem with bringing the scourge back is the impact it would have on ZvP give Pheonix splash damage.
dude you cant just change the entire mechanic of zerg thats a lot of balancing and work .. and you also have to change the mechanics of other races to make it balanced just because of scourges
giving pheonix splash is too much .. with its speed + range + buildtime .. i dont think any air would ever work vs protoss that way ..
it will be like siege tank that can kite like marines and are ridiculously fast
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EPT
