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On September 02 2013 13:34 Arco wrote:
It's kind of mind boggling how David Kim hasn't figured out the key to fixing TvZ without nerfing Terran lies in the Infestor.
It was a crucial unit in bridging the gap from Lair to Hive tech in WoL. Vortix has said the Infestor needs a buff for TvZ. Now MC says it. I think they could do something like add a +Biological damage tag to Fungal Growth. Funny thing is, that might help with reducing Mutalisk usage in ZvZ too, since that's what they wanted. Additionally, maybe they could make Fungal Growth prevent Widow Mines from firing. Maybe this will actually force Terran to build some Siege Tanks to deal with Infestors, like Lurkers forced Siege Tanks in BW.
They should also take the flying attack away from Widow Mines to encourage Mutalisk harassment and make engaging Bio/Mine armies with Mutalisks less risky.
It'd be nice to buff/rework Zerg abilities/units that actually force Terran to build something other than Biomine. In Brood War once you reached the very late game, a mech transition was favorable so you could use Spider Mines and Siege Tanks to help deal with Ultralisks/Dark Swarm. Maybe do something so that Terran needs to incorporate Ravens into their composition earlier than
Finally, I'd like to see Scourge in LotV. This will allow for Zerg players to play more aggressive with their Mutalisks instead of having to take a map control/defensive stance to stop drops.
I think there is only one problem in current situation - David Kim. He failed in WoL and failing in HoTS. We need some talented and creative guy to replace him in order to save sc2.
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On September 02 2013 13:42 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:34 Arco wrote:
It's kind of mind boggling how David Kim hasn't figured out the key to fixing TvZ without nerfing Terran lies in the Infestor.
It was a crucial unit in bridging the gap from Lair to Hive tech in WoL. Vortix has said the Infestor needs a buff for TvZ. Now MC says it. I think they could do something like add a +Biological damage tag to Fungal Growth. Funny thing is, that might help with reducing Mutalisk usage in ZvZ too, since that's what they wanted. Additionally, maybe they could make Fungal Growth prevent Widow Mines from firing. Maybe this will actually force Terran to build some Siege Tanks to deal with Infestors, like Lurkers forced Siege Tanks in BW.
They should also take the flying attack away from Widow Mines to encourage Mutalisk harassment and make engaging Bio/Mine armies with Mutalisks less risky.
It'd be nice to buff/rework Zerg abilities/units that actually force Terran to build something other than Biomine. In Brood War once you reached the very late game, a mech transition was favorable so you could use Spider Mines and Siege Tanks to help deal with Ultralisks/Dark Swarm. Maybe do something so that Terran needs to incorporate Ravens into their composition earlier than
Finally, I'd like to see Scourge in LotV. This will allow for Zerg players to play more aggressive with their Mutalisks instead of having to take a map control/defensive stance to stop drops. I think there is only one problem in current situation - David Kim. He failed in WoL and failing in HoTS. We need some talented and creative guy to replace him in order to save sc2.
GUYS stop pitch forking vs David Kim, he isn't DESIGNING the game.
Blame Dustin Browder!
He makes decisions regarding design choices.
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I don't want to be a negative Nancy, but I highly doubt Blizzard would listen. People like David Kim are inside their special bubble.
But I do hope otherwise because MC actually says really good stuff!
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On September 02 2013 13:39 pigmanbear wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:34 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 02 2013 13:29 BronzeKnee wrote:On September 02 2013 13:24 pigmanbear wrote:It's the wrinkles (like MC's dropship example) that made BW such a great game. Blizzard would have to make huge, sweeping changes to game mechanics and tech trees to even begin to rival the subtle and amazing design of BW. SC2 games are fun to watch, but the strength/weakness trade-offs feel like they were hacked together in a two week design phase: hm, which unit will counter this unit? .... yea, sounds good, ok, which unit counters that unit? ok ... great. now let's see that these can be used in a composition ... ok, yea, makes sense.
great work guys, now let's get these requirements to the dev team and get some testers on it! we'll tweak a couple stats and stuff if something doesn't work and if anything feels imba Frankly, Blizzard made SC1 and then got lucky everything worked out so nicely. It was not all planned, not even close. And that is why I don't understand the blind faith so many people have for the SC2 development team. Honestly, SC2 is a damn good game that is really well balanced considering all of what is in the game is entirely intentional. I mean the only thing that was potentially not intended is FF donuts that squeeze a bunch of units together that wont attack. Plenty of video games are balanced and fun to play. That doesn't make them rich or able to stand the test of time.
There is no secret trick for that either. You can try for it, but that is all you can do. You can't make a timeless classic on a whim or all the time.
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On September 02 2013 13:43 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:42 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 13:34 Arco wrote:
It's kind of mind boggling how David Kim hasn't figured out the key to fixing TvZ without nerfing Terran lies in the Infestor.
It was a crucial unit in bridging the gap from Lair to Hive tech in WoL. Vortix has said the Infestor needs a buff for TvZ. Now MC says it. I think they could do something like add a +Biological damage tag to Fungal Growth. Funny thing is, that might help with reducing Mutalisk usage in ZvZ too, since that's what they wanted. Additionally, maybe they could make Fungal Growth prevent Widow Mines from firing. Maybe this will actually force Terran to build some Siege Tanks to deal with Infestors, like Lurkers forced Siege Tanks in BW.
They should also take the flying attack away from Widow Mines to encourage Mutalisk harassment and make engaging Bio/Mine armies with Mutalisks less risky.
It'd be nice to buff/rework Zerg abilities/units that actually force Terran to build something other than Biomine. In Brood War once you reached the very late game, a mech transition was favorable so you could use Spider Mines and Siege Tanks to help deal with Ultralisks/Dark Swarm. Maybe do something so that Terran needs to incorporate Ravens into their composition earlier than
Finally, I'd like to see Scourge in LotV. This will allow for Zerg players to play more aggressive with their Mutalisks instead of having to take a map control/defensive stance to stop drops. I think there is only one problem in current situation - David Kim. He failed in WoL and failing in HoTS. We need some talented and creative guy to replace him in order to save sc2. GUYS stop pitch forking vs David Kim, he isn't DESIGNING the game. Blame Dustin Browder! He makes decisions regarding design choices.
Agreed, poor David Kim truly has a Sisyphean task.
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On September 02 2013 13:31 hjkim1304 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:24 pigmanbear wrote:It's the wrinkles (like MC's dropship example) that made BW such a great game. Blizzard would have to make huge, sweeping changes to game mechanics and tech trees to even begin to rival the subtle and amazing design of BW. SC2 games are fun to watch, but the strength/weakness trade-offs feel like they were hacked together in a two week design phase: hm, which unit will counter this unit? .... yea, sounds good, ok, which unit counters that unit? ok ... great. now let's see that these can be used in a composition ... ok, yea, makes sense.
great work guys, now let's get these requirements to the dev team and get some testers on it! we'll tweak a couple stats and stuff if something doesn't work and if anything feels imba I agree with you. I posted this on reddit, but I will post it here too. The problem with David Kim is not the fact that he's an evil person out to destroy all that is good in the Starcraft world. He's actually very competent, smart, and talented. The only problem is the fact that what HE sees and values in the game and what HE considers 'balanced' is different from what WE value in the game. I think he is way too hung up on statistics and numbers. In almost all the interviews that I have seen, he always talks about the win percentages and it really frustrates me. He doesn't think about the internal aspects of the game or the entertainment value, diversity, metagame. He only thinks, X amount of terran untis vs. Y amount of Zerg units, how is the engagement going to turn out? That is a very twisted way of designing a game in my opinion. But it is also a dilemma. If you start focusing too much on diversity, the balancing is going to be way too hard.
Just two things about this:
One, don't assume that "you" means "we". What people value in SC2 differs enormously from person to person and from time period to time period. It's a common mistake to think what you value in the game and want from the game is shared by everyone else. At a stretch, everyone may identify and agree on areas where the game is at fault or can improve, but it's another step entirely to then also think that everyone shares your opinion in the "solution" to those areas.
Second, you may be too hard on DK with his publicly stated approach to balance. Bear in mind that SC2 was and is an overt vehicle for E-Sport and has a public balance team for that purpose. As such, and as part of such a large organisation, there would have been internal agreement regarding how best to balance. This would have been for internal and external purposes and would need to be publicly defensible. Given these constraints, a method based off statistical data is the only real way to do this and have any real credibility. It cannot be based on a whole host of "softer" factors such as those you have outlined. If balance were to be based on such criteria, and essentially it would be based on subjective assessments of how DK and the Blizzard balance team see the game at a certain snapshot in time, there would be even more QQ after balance patches.
I believe Blizzard have internal data that they use as part of the balance process. It would be nice to know the details of this method. But, at the same time, I can understand if they keep it internal. The point is that having agreed to a balance method (probably prior to HOTS), they have to follow it. If not, a new one has to agreed with all the resulting sign-offs in Blizzard.
Anyway, nice post from MC. And very interesting thoughts on TvZ.
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On September 02 2013 13:40 NoGasfOu wrote:
I disagree with having to learn English. If you're a Korean pro with personality and good English and can't win games, you will disappear sooner than those that win games but without personality. Nestea and MC both have won multiple Code S titles in the early days.
Well of course, you are correct in that you have to show results. MC didn't leave that part out. But knowing english and being able to connect with foreigner fans with the way SC2 is going... it doesn't hurt. It helps!
It shows MCs understanding of the fan-pro relationship in SC2.
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MC would be nothing if he has both personality and English but without the 390k under his belt. Nobody would remember him.
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On September 02 2013 13:43 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:42 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 13:34 Arco wrote:
It's kind of mind boggling how David Kim hasn't figured out the key to fixing TvZ without nerfing Terran lies in the Infestor.
It was a crucial unit in bridging the gap from Lair to Hive tech in WoL. Vortix has said the Infestor needs a buff for TvZ. Now MC says it. I think they could do something like add a +Biological damage tag to Fungal Growth. Funny thing is, that might help with reducing Mutalisk usage in ZvZ too, since that's what they wanted. Additionally, maybe they could make Fungal Growth prevent Widow Mines from firing. Maybe this will actually force Terran to build some Siege Tanks to deal with Infestors, like Lurkers forced Siege Tanks in BW.
They should also take the flying attack away from Widow Mines to encourage Mutalisk harassment and make engaging Bio/Mine armies with Mutalisks less risky.
It'd be nice to buff/rework Zerg abilities/units that actually force Terran to build something other than Biomine. In Brood War once you reached the very late game, a mech transition was favorable so you could use Spider Mines and Siege Tanks to help deal with Ultralisks/Dark Swarm. Maybe do something so that Terran needs to incorporate Ravens into their composition earlier than
Finally, I'd like to see Scourge in LotV. This will allow for Zerg players to play more aggressive with their Mutalisks instead of having to take a map control/defensive stance to stop drops. I think there is only one problem in current situation - David Kim. He failed in WoL and failing in HoTS. We need some talented and creative guy to replace him in order to save sc2. GUYS stop pitch forking vs David Kim, he isn't DESIGNING the game. Blame Dustin Browder! He makes decisions regarding design choices.
isn't he who's forcing bio/mine like no other day and Believing that the faster units run and die, the better the esports? Last time I checked he was a senior designer. And Dustin Browder is a more of a community guy who just leads his team and concerned about campaign and battle.net. DK directly works on multiplayer and decides how it should be. And his latest interviews showed that he has different views than the community's.
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On September 02 2013 13:45 ElMeanYo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:40 NoGasfOu wrote:
I disagree with having to learn English. If you're a Korean pro with personality and good English and can't win games, you will disappear sooner than those that win games but without personality. Nestea and MC both have won multiple Code S titles in the early days. Well of course, you are correct in that you have to show results. MC didn't leave that part out. But knowing english and being able to connect with foreigner fans with the way SC2 is going... it doesn't hurt. It helps! It shows MCs understanding of the fan-pro relationship in SC2.
But it also means that a portion of your time is put aside to learn English instead of using that as part of practice time.
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On September 02 2013 13:47 NoGasfOu wrote:
MC would be nothing if he has both personality and English but without the 390k under his belt. Nobody would remember him.
Good thing he has ALL of those things. And because he manages to have ALL of those things he will be remembered longer than the players who only have one or the other.
You're missing the point, MC says having results isnt everything. Connecting with fans is important, if MC didnt make himself so personable and connect with his fans like he does he wouldn't be very popular right now because his results aren't top notch right now.
Its a COMBINATION of the two.
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Thanks terry for the translation, that hit me right in the feels
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On September 02 2013 13:47 NoGasfOu wrote:
MC would be nothing if he has both personality and English but without the 390k under his belt. Nobody would remember him.
I understand your point. no one likes a pure trash talker who doesnt produce results.
But i think what MC was trying to say that results are not the be all and end all of a pro-gamers career. The point he is trying to make is that having an engaging personality is a very useful supplement.
Which is why i disagree with some elements of this preview: + Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=426274
MC is not only about money and results. He understands that pro gamers are in the entertainment business and he defines entertainment as more than what goes on in-game, but also what is presented out of the game. In this respect he behaves like a WWE wrestler (smack talk, crazy personality, dancing/ singing etc.)
And yes, i am a massive MC fan.
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On September 02 2013 13:49 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:43 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 13:42 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 13:34 Arco wrote:
It's kind of mind boggling how David Kim hasn't figured out the key to fixing TvZ without nerfing Terran lies in the Infestor.
It was a crucial unit in bridging the gap from Lair to Hive tech in WoL. Vortix has said the Infestor needs a buff for TvZ. Now MC says it. I think they could do something like add a +Biological damage tag to Fungal Growth. Funny thing is, that might help with reducing Mutalisk usage in ZvZ too, since that's what they wanted. Additionally, maybe they could make Fungal Growth prevent Widow Mines from firing. Maybe this will actually force Terran to build some Siege Tanks to deal with Infestors, like Lurkers forced Siege Tanks in BW.
They should also take the flying attack away from Widow Mines to encourage Mutalisk harassment and make engaging Bio/Mine armies with Mutalisks less risky.
It'd be nice to buff/rework Zerg abilities/units that actually force Terran to build something other than Biomine. In Brood War once you reached the very late game, a mech transition was favorable so you could use Spider Mines and Siege Tanks to help deal with Ultralisks/Dark Swarm. Maybe do something so that Terran needs to incorporate Ravens into their composition earlier than
Finally, I'd like to see Scourge in LotV. This will allow for Zerg players to play more aggressive with their Mutalisks instead of having to take a map control/defensive stance to stop drops. I think there is only one problem in current situation - David Kim. He failed in WoL and failing in HoTS. We need some talented and creative guy to replace him in order to save sc2. GUYS stop pitch forking vs David Kim, he isn't DESIGNING the game. Blame Dustin Browder! He makes decisions regarding design choices. isn't he who's forcing bio/mine like no other day and Believing that the faster units run and die, the better the esports? Last time I checked he was a senior designer. And Dustin Browder is a more of a community guy who just leads his team and concerned about campaign and battle.net. DK directly works on multiplayer and decides how it should be. And his latest interviews showed that he has different views than the community's.
Honestly, I don't really think Blizzard really care about SC2 anymore as they ain't making money from it anymore. Yes they still have LotV to come out but jusdging from the looks of it, HotS is just WoL with newly designed unit from the Editor and shuffled the balance stats there and there, work that can be done under a week by an above average programmer (But gotta admit that the cinematic were awe-inspiring). So for LotV, all they need is a minuscule task force that get paid for couple of thousands but in end, the game will still be a able to sell decently. Any surplus work the do is just more money they are losing.
I hope they prove that statement wrong though but I wouldn't bet on it.
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On September 02 2013 13:47 NoGasfOu wrote:
MC would be nothing if he has both personality and English but without the 390k under his belt. Nobody would remember him.
Wait, you're saying if he had personality and was more Western-friendly (with his English), but had no results(390k), nobody would remember him?
I don't know about you, but that sounds like the opposite of what this community cares about (and it's a shame too). I always hear people going on and on about "personality" this and "faceless Korean" that no matter how good they are. The added results just seem like a nice bonus unfortunately. :/
I mean look at Dragon.
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Cool perspective on the state of the games. I do find it interesting he says TvZ WoL was better than it is now. You have the 80% used 4m, the occasional tank bio army, mech though rarely shows up sometimes, and we have end game raven bc transitions used by polt. WoL TvZ was bio tank viking vs infestor broodlord, guarenteed. There were no non stop micro skirmishes, it was just positioning battles thanks to tanks and those OP fungals.
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On September 02 2013 13:57 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:47 NoGasfOu wrote:
MC would be nothing if he has both personality and English but without the 390k under his belt. Nobody would remember him. Wait, you're saying if he had personality and was more Western-friendly (with his English), but had no results(390k), nobody would remember him? I don't know about you, but that sounds like the opposite of what this community cares about (and it's a shame too). I always hear people going on and on about "personality" this and "faceless Korean" that no matter how good they are. The added results just seem like a nice bonus unfortunately. :/
If he didnt have his money he wouldn't have as many chances to display his personality though! 'Tis a delicate balance.
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On September 02 2013 13:45 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:31 hjkim1304 wrote:On September 02 2013 13:24 pigmanbear wrote:It's the wrinkles (like MC's dropship example) that made BW such a great game. Blizzard would have to make huge, sweeping changes to game mechanics and tech trees to even begin to rival the subtle and amazing design of BW. SC2 games are fun to watch, but the strength/weakness trade-offs feel like they were hacked together in a two week design phase: hm, which unit will counter this unit? .... yea, sounds good, ok, which unit counters that unit? ok ... great. now let's see that these can be used in a composition ... ok, yea, makes sense.
great work guys, now let's get these requirements to the dev team and get some testers on it! we'll tweak a couple stats and stuff if something doesn't work and if anything feels imba I agree with you. I posted this on reddit, but I will post it here too. The problem with David Kim is not the fact that he's an evil person out to destroy all that is good in the Starcraft world. He's actually very competent, smart, and talented. The only problem is the fact that what HE sees and values in the game and what HE considers 'balanced' is different from what WE value in the game. I think he is way too hung up on statistics and numbers. In almost all the interviews that I have seen, he always talks about the win percentages and it really frustrates me. He doesn't think about the internal aspects of the game or the entertainment value, diversity, metagame. He only thinks, X amount of terran untis vs. Y amount of Zerg units, how is the engagement going to turn out? That is a very twisted way of designing a game in my opinion. But it is also a dilemma. If you start focusing too much on diversity, the balancing is going to be way too hard. Just two things about this: One, don't assume that "you" means "we". What people value in SC2 differs enormously from person to person and from time period to time period. It's a common mistake to think what you value in the game and want from the game is shared by everyone else. At a stretch, everyone may identify and agree on areas where the game is at fault or can improve, but it's another step entirely to then also think that everyone shares your opinion in the "solution" to those areas. Second, you may be too hard on DK with his publicly stated approach to balance. Bear in mind that SC2 was and is an overt vehicle for E-Sport and has a public balance team for that purpose. As such, and as part of such a large organisation, there would have been internal agreement regarding how best to balance. This would have been for internal and external purposes and would need to be publicly defensible. Given these constraints, a method based off statistical data is the only real way to do this and have any real credibility. It cannot be based on a whole host of "softer" factors such as those you have outlined. If balance were to be based on such criteria, and essentially it would be based on subjective assessments of how DK and the Blizzard balance team see the game at a certain snapshot in time, there would be even more QQ after balance patches. I believe Blizzard have internal data that they use as part of the balance process. It would be nice to know the details of this method. But, at the same time, I can understand if they keep it internal. The point is that having agreed to a balance method (probably prior to HOTS), they have to follow it. If not, a new one has to agreed with all the resulting sign-offs in Blizzard. Anyway, nice post from MC. And very interesting thoughts on TvZ.
It was my mistake to assume that everyone was on my side  My point was just the fact that David Kim is too number/data focused and some parts of the community aren't, which can be seen in this very thread. Win percentage wise, HotS is probably pretty damn fucking well balanced, but it's also probably very one dimensional in many of the match ups. However, I can see that focusing on data may be the most objective approach to the game as a balance designer. It's just a trade off in my opinion of balancing and variety.
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On September 02 2013 13:55 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:49 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 13:43 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 13:42 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 13:34 Arco wrote:
It's kind of mind boggling how David Kim hasn't figured out the key to fixing TvZ without nerfing Terran lies in the Infestor.
It was a crucial unit in bridging the gap from Lair to Hive tech in WoL. Vortix has said the Infestor needs a buff for TvZ. Now MC says it. I think they could do something like add a +Biological damage tag to Fungal Growth. Funny thing is, that might help with reducing Mutalisk usage in ZvZ too, since that's what they wanted. Additionally, maybe they could make Fungal Growth prevent Widow Mines from firing. Maybe this will actually force Terran to build some Siege Tanks to deal with Infestors, like Lurkers forced Siege Tanks in BW.
They should also take the flying attack away from Widow Mines to encourage Mutalisk harassment and make engaging Bio/Mine armies with Mutalisks less risky.
It'd be nice to buff/rework Zerg abilities/units that actually force Terran to build something other than Biomine. In Brood War once you reached the very late game, a mech transition was favorable so you could use Spider Mines and Siege Tanks to help deal with Ultralisks/Dark Swarm. Maybe do something so that Terran needs to incorporate Ravens into their composition earlier than
Finally, I'd like to see Scourge in LotV. This will allow for Zerg players to play more aggressive with their Mutalisks instead of having to take a map control/defensive stance to stop drops. I think there is only one problem in current situation - David Kim. He failed in WoL and failing in HoTS. We need some talented and creative guy to replace him in order to save sc2. GUYS stop pitch forking vs David Kim, he isn't DESIGNING the game. Blame Dustin Browder! He makes decisions regarding design choices. isn't he who's forcing bio/mine like no other day and Believing that the faster units run and die, the better the esports? Last time I checked he was a senior designer. And Dustin Browder is a more of a community guy who just leads his team and concerned about campaign and battle.net. DK directly works on multiplayer and decides how it should be. And his latest interviews showed that he has different views than the community's. Honestly, I don't really think Blizzard really care about SC2 anymore as they ain't making money from it anymore. Yes they still have LotV to come out but jusdging from the looks of it, HotS is just WoL with newly designed unit from the Editor and shuffled the balance stats there and there, work that can be done under a week by an above average programmer (But gotta admit that the cinematic were awe-inspiring). So for LotV, all they need is a minuscule task force that get paid for couple of thousands but in end, the game will still be a able to sell decently. Any surplus work the do is just more money they are losing. I hope they prove that statement wrong though but I wouldn't bet on it.
Icefrog singlehandedly thrived dota back in wc3.
I think if we put similar talented guy as head of multiplayer designer he could fix everything and make sc2 much better. Balancing is simple technically, changing numbers on SC2 Editor. You just have to make right decisions, and whoever is doing it in Blizzard is obviously failing right now.
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EPT
