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On September 16 2013 11:15 darkness wrote:
I think we should take small steps. First, lower tanks supply by 1, and replace thors with goliaths. This should make mech more viable as a start. Of course, you may consider siege tank's damage as well.
goliaths instead of thor is necessary. but you forget, thor is here. blizz wouldn't spend all that on a austrian accent for it to be gone in lotv.
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On September 16 2013 11:46 Phanekim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 11:15 darkness wrote:
I think we should take small steps. First, lower tanks supply by 1, and replace thors with goliaths. This should make mech more viable as a start. Of course, you may consider siege tank's damage as well. goliaths instead of thor is necessary. but you forget, thor is here. blizz wouldn't spend all that on a austrian accent for it to be gone in lotv.
Here's an idea. Remove the Thor and bring back the Warhound. Make it:
A) 1 supply
B) Greatly downsized, only costing about 75 Minerals and 25 Gas each.
C) Quick but weak aerial attack, does 3 damage but also minor splash.
D) Ground attack is slow and single target but decent vs Armored and Massive units.
E) Phalanx ability, lets them raise a shield, reducing their movement speed by 50% but reducing their damage taken by 80%. Basically, make them the Footmen of SC2.
F) Attack range of 4.
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On September 16 2013 11:30 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 11:27 ETisME wrote:On September 16 2013 11:21 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On September 16 2013 11:02 gobbledydook wrote:On September 16 2013 11:01 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
It became stagnant again after three consecutive hellbat nerfs,
- reintroduction of transformation servos
- increase of loading size from 2 to 4.
- reintroduction of the blue flame requirement
Thanks SC2 forum trolls. hellbat drops all day?  It was close to being solved by the meta, when anticipating hellbat drops, opponents would start turreting up and/or add in anti-air flying units to patrol the blind spots. It was beginning to look interesting with all that action around the map as T would try to sneak in a hellbat drop while pushing the front. But noooooooooooooooo, Big Daddy Designer had to come "save the day" with a hellbat nerf. I facepalmed so hard I didn't watch a game until last Friday. Sorry Blizzard, it is YOU who is killing SC2 scene. I think most people would agree that TvT is way better than before now. Exactly what the community wanted, you are in the minority here Except replace dropping Hellbats with dropping Marines and Marauders on everything. Bio is still broken in TvT and is phasing out Mech because of Stimivac drops.
I don't think you watched enough recent TvT games. Most of the times players would go bio-tank or one player would go mech. However, all builds need to use medivacs to both heal and drop in either styles. It gives mech a more harassment options than hellion runby and also make hellbat micro with medivacs become important and more effective against bio-army. Seriously, go watch Innovation vs Taeja game 3 of Seasons 2 Finals and DH Bucharest final game 1 and 3 to see how medivacs give a very dynamic game in the hand of best players.
Also...
When you can deny 6 - 7 Siege Tanks with a handful of Hellbats below by dropping about 3 medivacs full of MM on top and engaging with another force in a concave, it's not balanced
Dropping 3 medivacs full of units is a very big commitment. That's around 24 supply of army + 6 supply of medivacs (2400 mineral + hundreds of gas) that can be lost easily too with good positioning of mech players (with vikings and hellbat). Beside, tanks is not a unit that suppose to be alone without support from other units. Denying 6-7 tanks that are alone is not really a big deal.
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On September 13 2013 01:48 Clbull wrote:
I agree, the SC2 community is toxic-as-shit and in a way that would make League of Legends seem like kindergarten.
In my experience, the LoL community is easily 100x worse than the SC2 community. You get abused a lot more just playing the game, though the team aspect probably has something to do with that. Besides, just think about all the good community stuff we have related to SC2, including this very website. Nothing quite like Teamliquid exists in the LoL community.
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On September 16 2013 12:04 RyuuZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 01:48 Clbull wrote:
I agree, the SC2 community is toxic-as-shit and in a way that would make League of Legends seem like kindergarten. In my experience, the LoL community is easily 100x worse than the SC2 community. You get abused a lot more just playing the game, though the team aspect probably has something to do with that. Besides, just think about all the good community stuff we have related to SC2, including this very website. Nothing quite like Teamliquid exists in the LoL community.
You don't play protoss, do you? =)
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On September 16 2013 12:00 Veldril wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 11:30 Clbull wrote:On September 16 2013 11:27 ETisME wrote:On September 16 2013 11:21 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On September 16 2013 11:02 gobbledydook wrote:On September 16 2013 11:01 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
It became stagnant again after three consecutive hellbat nerfs,
- reintroduction of transformation servos
- increase of loading size from 2 to 4.
- reintroduction of the blue flame requirement
Thanks SC2 forum trolls. hellbat drops all day? It was close to being solved by the meta, when anticipating hellbat drops, opponents would start turreting up and/or add in anti-air flying units to patrol the blind spots. It was beginning to look interesting with all that action around the map as T would try to sneak in a hellbat drop while pushing the front. But noooooooooooooooo, Big Daddy Designer had to come "save the day" with a hellbat nerf. I facepalmed so hard I didn't watch a game until last Friday. Sorry Blizzard, it is YOU who is killing SC2 scene. I think most people would agree that TvT is way better than before now. Exactly what the community wanted, you are in the minority here Except replace dropping Hellbats with dropping Marines and Marauders on everything. Bio is still broken in TvT and is phasing out Mech because of Stimivac drops. I don't think you watched enough recent TvT games. Most of the times players would go bio-tank or one player would go mech. However, all builds need to use medivacs to both heal and drop in either styles. It gives mech a more harassment options than hellion runby and also make hellbat micro with medivacs become important and more effective against bio-army. Seriously, go watch Innovation vs Taeja game 3 of Seasons 2 Finals and DH Bucharest final game 1 and 3 to see how medivacs give a very dynamic game in the hand of best players. Also... Show nested quote +When you can deny 6 - 7 Siege Tanks with a handful of Hellbats below by dropping about 3 medivacs full of MM on top and engaging with another force in a concave, it's not balanced Dropping 3 medivacs full of units is a very big commitment. That's around 24 supply of army + 6 supply of medivacs (2400 mineral + hundreds of gas) that can be lost easily too with good positioning of mech players (with vikings and hellbat). Beside, tanks is not a unit that suppose to be alone without support from other units. Denying 6-7 tanks that are alone is not really a big deal.
That example isn't good enough. TaeJa got really far ahead in that game with really successful Banshee harassment. It was a given that Innovation was going to struggle economically in the later game.
Getting a supply advantage as a mech player is never where you want to be as a Bio playing Terran. Generally you want a superior supply, to constantly pressure the Mech player and prevent him from going 2-2 and 200/200 with a strong army.
My problem is that stimivacs completely negate things such as missile turret walls that were originally designed to greatly ward off doom drops. Now, you can stim past them, escape unmolested, drop straight in the production, stim and rape it all.
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On September 16 2013 12:04 RyuuZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 01:48 Clbull wrote:
I agree, the SC2 community is toxic-as-shit and in a way that would make League of Legends seem like kindergarten. In my experience, the LoL community is easily 100x worse than the SC2 community. You get abused a lot more just playing the game, though the team aspect probably has something to do with that. Besides, just think about all the good community stuff we have related to SC2, including this very website. Nothing quite like Teamliquid exists in the LoL community.
True but I have never been called a ni**er or an autistic fuck in LoL once. I have been called that numerous times in SC2 just from opponents who have either wanted to shit on me for losing to their cheese, asking then kindly for a rematch or for playing a style they found frustrating.
LoL has far more BM but the quality of it is quite bad, and if you ask me they are far better at banning offenders than they are in SC2. The game will also tell you that you've recently been reported and try to warn you against your behaviour too. Unlike SC2, they also implement mutes as penalties.
I have to agree that the LoL community is very toxic but their choice of offensive language isn't very great. There is also a great justification for raging at somebody for playing the game. Pick a wrong champion or build a wrong way or mismicro an engagement and that affects your entire team composition. Unfortunately League is balanced on a really static meta that makes HotS's stagnant, one-dimensional metagame look varied.
I asked someone in SC2 for a regame a week ago, I got called a "fucking ni**er." I also tried to play Mech and Sky Terran 2 days ago and got called an autistic fuck and a massive cunt by some guy who couldn't figure out how to make Hydralisks vs mass BC Raven Viking.
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On September 12 2013 14:57 rezoacken wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 14:50 saddaromma wrote:On September 12 2013 14:38 rezoacken wrote:
To me esport is at an alltime low.
Moba are the big thing right now but I really dont get the hype for those and can't get myself to watch them without getting bored out of my mind. It's way too slow and unexciting from a viewer point of view.
And SC2 hasn't been interesting to me for a long time due to design decisions Blizzard doesn't want to get rid off making the game way too volatile and battles way too quick and too decisive to make the game exciting.
Last e-sport thing I've watched were some pro matches of Age of Conquerors (aoe2)... Speak for yourself. I'm mostly on the edge of my seat while watching high profile LCS games. Ofc, boring games happen, every sports have boring games. Yeah of course I'm just expressing my point of view, that's pretty obvious from my post unless you want me to add "imo" at every sentences... I doubt the dozens of thousands of viewers just watch out of boredom.
I believe you're from english speaking country. You should word it better: "It's way too slow and unexciting from a viewer point of view" - is generalization. "I don't like watching LoL coz its too slow and unexciting" - is more of personal opinion.
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How is the game still stagnant when everything they did in HOTS was an attempt to create variation?
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To me, having a conversation like this at all is a bad sign in general. yikes
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On September 16 2013 13:47 Xahhk wrote:
How is the game still stagnant when everything they did in HOTS was an attempt to create variation?
Terrible damage syndrome and hard counters make the game impossible to have variations. There will be always one and only optimal build.
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On September 16 2013 12:47 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 12:04 RyuuZer0 wrote:On September 13 2013 01:48 Clbull wrote:
I agree, the SC2 community is toxic-as-shit and in a way that would make League of Legends seem like kindergarten. In my experience, the LoL community is easily 100x worse than the SC2 community. You get abused a lot more just playing the game, though the team aspect probably has something to do with that. Besides, just think about all the good community stuff we have related to SC2, including this very website. Nothing quite like Teamliquid exists in the LoL community. True but I have never been called a ni**er or an autistic fuck in LoL once. I have been called that numerous times in SC2 just from opponents who have either wanted to shit on me for losing to their cheese, asking then kindly for a rematch or for playing a style they found frustrating. LoL has far more BM but the quality of it is quite bad, and if you ask me they are far better at banning offenders than they are in SC2. The game will also tell you that you've recently been reported and try to warn you against your behaviour too. Unlike SC2, they also implement mutes as penalties. I have to agree that the LoL community is very toxic but their choice of offensive language isn't very great. There is also a great justification for raging at somebody for playing the game. Pick a wrong champion or build a wrong way or mismicro an engagement and that affects your entire team composition. Unfortunately League is balanced on a really static meta that makes HotS's stagnant, one-dimensional metagame look varied. I asked someone in SC2 for a regame a week ago, I got called a "fucking ni**er." I also tried to play Mech and Sky Terran 2 days ago and got called an autistic fuck and a massive cunt by some guy who couldn't figure out how to make Hydralisks vs mass BC Raven Viking.
You contradict yourself a half dozen times in this post.. not quite sure what your point is. As someone who has played both Gamez I can say that LoL has the more poisonous community by far.
Age and the team aspect has a lot to do with it. I'd ballpark the average league player to be from 15-18, where the average sc2 player would be from the ages of 18-24. Something about moba games elicits this weird deep-rooted anger in people.. its not often I see someone play dota or league without a torrent of expletives and shouting.
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On September 16 2013 14:00 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 13:47 Xahhk wrote:
How is the game still stagnant when everything they did in HOTS was an attempt to create variation? Terrible damage syndrome and hard counters make the game impossible to have variations. There will be always one and only optimal build.
This is basically at the core of the problem. Units in small numbers are FINE and BALANCED, but the game is designed to be all about large armies which are constantly replaced AND they are fighting in a maximized concentration due to the "improved" movement AI system and the unlimited unit selection. This maximizes the dps of the "clump" and creates the "critical number problem" where units get more efficient if you have more than X of them in a tight clump. There isnt any point to really micro in a battle anymore, because units die far too fast to react to one of them being shot at. The only "micro" possible is a general movement of "sub-clumps" to get into a better firing position.
This possible focus fire makes a lot of units useless - like many air units which need to be present in critical number to make them worth it in the first place - and it certainly is very boring to watch a Colossus being abducted into the middle of a clump of Hydras and Roaches and watch it die in less than a second. There simply is no way to "parry" that kind of attack and the game should have that option. Thus the game is dumber than it should and could be and all that is needed to correct it is to lower the unit density by A LOT.
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On September 16 2013 11:56 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 11:46 Phanekim wrote:On September 16 2013 11:15 darkness wrote:
I think we should take small steps. First, lower tanks supply by 1, and replace thors with goliaths. This should make mech more viable as a start. Of course, you may consider siege tank's damage as well. goliaths instead of thor is necessary. but you forget, thor is here. blizz wouldn't spend all that on a austrian accent for it to be gone in lotv. Here's an idea. Remove the Thor and bring back the Warhound. Make it: A) 1 supply B) Greatly downsized, only costing about 75 Minerals and 25 Gas each. C) Quick but weak aerial attack, does 3 damage but also minor splash. D) Ground attack is slow and single target but decent vs Armored and Massive units. E) Phalanx ability, lets them raise a shield, reducing their movement speed by 50% but reducing their damage taken by 80%. Basically, make them the Footmen of SC2. F) Attack range of 4.
I just wish thor is smaller and fast like immortal 
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On September 16 2013 14:57 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 14:00 saddaromma wrote:On September 16 2013 13:47 Xahhk wrote:
How is the game still stagnant when everything they did in HOTS was an attempt to create variation? Terrible damage syndrome and hard counters make the game impossible to have variations. There will be always one and only optimal build. This is basically at the core of the problem. Units in small numbers are FINE and BALANCED, but the game is designed to be all about large armies which are constantly replaced AND they are fighting in a maximized concentration due to the "improved" movement AI system and the unlimited unit selection. This maximizes the dps of the "clump" and creates the "critical number problem" where units get more efficient if you have more than X of them in a tight clump. There isnt any point to really micro in a battle anymore, because units die far too fast to react to one of them being shot at. The only "micro" possible is a general movement of "sub-clumps" to get into a better firing position. This possible focus fire makes a lot of units useless - like many air units which need to be present in critical number to make them worth it in the first place - and it certainly is very boring to watch a Colossus being abducted into the middle of a clump of Hydras and Roaches and watch it die in less than a second. There simply is no way to "parry" that kind of attack and the game should have that option. Thus the game is dumber than it should and could be and all that is needed to correct it is to lower the unit density by A LOT.
Yes... same as for widow mine.
It's ok in small numbers (can dodge or bait), but when it is all over the place, shabby zerg like me die and rage quit
Edit: how about reintroducing limited selection? obviously it should more than 12 :p
I think blizzard made limited selection on purpose in bw, didn't they?
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On September 16 2013 15:56 SsDrKosS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 14:57 Rabiator wrote:On September 16 2013 14:00 saddaromma wrote:On September 16 2013 13:47 Xahhk wrote:
How is the game still stagnant when everything they did in HOTS was an attempt to create variation? Terrible damage syndrome and hard counters make the game impossible to have variations. There will be always one and only optimal build. This is basically at the core of the problem. Units in small numbers are FINE and BALANCED, but the game is designed to be all about large armies which are constantly replaced AND they are fighting in a maximized concentration due to the "improved" movement AI system and the unlimited unit selection. This maximizes the dps of the "clump" and creates the "critical number problem" where units get more efficient if you have more than X of them in a tight clump. There isnt any point to really micro in a battle anymore, because units die far too fast to react to one of them being shot at. The only "micro" possible is a general movement of "sub-clumps" to get into a better firing position. This possible focus fire makes a lot of units useless - like many air units which need to be present in critical number to make them worth it in the first place - and it certainly is very boring to watch a Colossus being abducted into the middle of a clump of Hydras and Roaches and watch it die in less than a second. There simply is no way to "parry" that kind of attack and the game should have that option. Thus the game is dumber than it should and could be and all that is needed to correct it is to lower the unit density by A LOT. Yes... same as for widow mine. It's ok in small numbers (can dodge or bait), but when it is all over the place, shabby zerg like me die and rage quit Edit: how about reintroducing limited selection? obviously it should more than 12 :p I think blizzard made limited selection on purpose in bw, didn't they?
It's never going to happen, you might as well say that Blizzard should remove protoss and focus on two races only. I think the only thing you can hope for is that they'll keep certain arguments in mind come WC4/SC3, but who knows if Blizzard is ever going to make another RTS game.
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On September 16 2013 14:25 BrassMonkey27 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 12:47 Clbull wrote:On September 16 2013 12:04 RyuuZer0 wrote:On September 13 2013 01:48 Clbull wrote:
I agree, the SC2 community is toxic-as-shit and in a way that would make League of Legends seem like kindergarten. In my experience, the LoL community is easily 100x worse than the SC2 community. You get abused a lot more just playing the game, though the team aspect probably has something to do with that. Besides, just think about all the good community stuff we have related to SC2, including this very website. Nothing quite like Teamliquid exists in the LoL community. True but I have never been called a ni**er or an autistic fuck in LoL once. I have been called that numerous times in SC2 just from opponents who have either wanted to shit on me for losing to their cheese, asking then kindly for a rematch or for playing a style they found frustrating. LoL has far more BM but the quality of it is quite bad, and if you ask me they are far better at banning offenders than they are in SC2. The game will also tell you that you've recently been reported and try to warn you against your behaviour too. Unlike SC2, they also implement mutes as penalties. I have to agree that the LoL community is very toxic but their choice of offensive language isn't very great. There is also a great justification for raging at somebody for playing the game. Pick a wrong champion or build a wrong way or mismicro an engagement and that affects your entire team composition. Unfortunately League is balanced on a really static meta that makes HotS's stagnant, one-dimensional metagame look varied. I asked someone in SC2 for a regame a week ago, I got called a "fucking ni**er." I also tried to play Mech and Sky Terran 2 days ago and got called an autistic fuck and a massive cunt by some guy who couldn't figure out how to make Hydralisks vs mass BC Raven Viking. You contradict yourself a half dozen times in this post.. not quite sure what your point is. As someone who has played both Gamez I can say that LoL has the more poisonous community by far. Age and the team aspect has a lot to do with it. I'd ballpark the average league player to be from 15-18, where the average sc2 player would be from the ages of 18-24. Something about moba games elicits this weird deep-rooted anger in people.. its not often I see someone play dota or league without a torrent of expletives and shouting.
What I'm saying is comparing LoL BM to SC2 BM is like comparing Dennis the Menace to /b/ on 4chan. The latter is going to offend you.
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pretty sure i've hurled incredibly offensive racist abuse in LoL almost every other game; stuff too obscene to be printed here else i will be banned. no i don't play LoL anymore.
to me it is almost pointless insulting someone over sc2 (1v1). it's not gonna make the loss turn into a win. okay, so that's true for LoL as well, but at least it makes others feel bad about themselves. if you do so in sc2 there is a good chance your victorious opponent will just gloat over your terribleness.
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On September 16 2013 21:31 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 14:25 BrassMonkey27 wrote:On September 16 2013 12:47 Clbull wrote:On September 16 2013 12:04 RyuuZer0 wrote:On September 13 2013 01:48 Clbull wrote:
I agree, the SC2 community is toxic-as-shit and in a way that would make League of Legends seem like kindergarten. In my experience, the LoL community is easily 100x worse than the SC2 community. You get abused a lot more just playing the game, though the team aspect probably has something to do with that. Besides, just think about all the good community stuff we have related to SC2, including this very website. Nothing quite like Teamliquid exists in the LoL community. True but I have never been called a ni**er or an autistic fuck in LoL once. I have been called that numerous times in SC2 just from opponents who have either wanted to shit on me for losing to their cheese, asking then kindly for a rematch or for playing a style they found frustrating. LoL has far more BM but the quality of it is quite bad, and if you ask me they are far better at banning offenders than they are in SC2. The game will also tell you that you've recently been reported and try to warn you against your behaviour too. Unlike SC2, they also implement mutes as penalties. I have to agree that the LoL community is very toxic but their choice of offensive language isn't very great. There is also a great justification for raging at somebody for playing the game. Pick a wrong champion or build a wrong way or mismicro an engagement and that affects your entire team composition. Unfortunately League is balanced on a really static meta that makes HotS's stagnant, one-dimensional metagame look varied. I asked someone in SC2 for a regame a week ago, I got called a "fucking ni**er." I also tried to play Mech and Sky Terran 2 days ago and got called an autistic fuck and a massive cunt by some guy who couldn't figure out how to make Hydralisks vs mass BC Raven Viking. You contradict yourself a half dozen times in this post.. not quite sure what your point is. As someone who has played both Gamez I can say that LoL has the more poisonous community by far. Age and the team aspect has a lot to do with it. I'd ballpark the average league player to be from 15-18, where the average sc2 player would be from the ages of 18-24. Something about moba games elicits this weird deep-rooted anger in people.. its not often I see someone play dota or league without a torrent of expletives and shouting. What I'm saying is comparing LoL BM to SC2 BM is like comparing Dennis the Menace to /b/ on 4chan. The latter is going to offend you.
Weird that I find it the other way around, LoL community and people playing it has made me stop playing that game entirely. Before that, I was playing with friends only in premade groups. You get flamed for basically everything in LoL, starting by your nickname, over picking a hero the other guy doesn't like and ofc usual stuff while playing the game.
I started playing Dota2 with friends recently and there is way less flaming going on there than LoL but I think that will change when it gets more popular than it is right now.
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I almost never had any flaming on LoL unless I was doing really badly but in SC2 I get called out sometimes on a team game lol
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EPT
