EPTIdeas to help Starcraft grow? - Page 5
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Kishin2
United States7534 Posts
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renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
I for one, don't. I don't even want it to be the only RTS esport. | ||
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SniXSniPe
United States1938 Posts
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gh0un
601 Posts
If you compare it with dota, there is NO perfect way to play the game. What worked perfectly last game might not work aswell in the next game due to how the enemy changes their starting lanes and overall strategy (or lineup alltogether). There are just so many factors that have an effect on the outcome of a game (pickphase, starting lanes, ability to adapt and rotate the heroes around, item build, skill build, reaction, spidersenses, teamwork, knowledge of when to push/gank or farm, just to name a few), that you almost always have a different game at your hand. Sure, there is a metagame when it comes to popular hero picks, but even within that meta there are just so many factors that can change the outcome of a game that it is not even comparable to a typical meta in sc2. (broodlord infestor towards the end of WoL). I do think that sc2 still has a few years in it, but eventually i think it will die. Dota and lol should only become more popular as time goes by. | ||
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Joxx
France82 Posts
I know a lot of people loved it when OSL had Innovation first person view. Sc2 client , battle net w/e is just so primitive compared to other games' clients. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 09 2013 23:31 [F_]aths wrote: They could "fix" anything. Realtime strategy still is not as attractive as a whole as other genres. One should rather look at the success of SC2: The first global esports RTS. The problem is that Blizzard is limiting the variety of the gameplay by artificially keeping mech viability low. David Kim has basically admitted to that. More variety in styles of play would be better, but they fail at grasping basic "cause and effect problems" like "tight unit clumps = maximized clump dps = extremely short reaction time for the defender = bad for not-so-good players and unit balance must be super precise". Their argument is "but the players want the deathball" [Dustin Browder from 2012 in China] ... which is terrible, because sometimes you have to say NO to a child. They are also keeping a tight grip on the whole scene when it comes to competitions. This isnt really a good thing because it restricts freedom for tournaments. Having to "ask for permission" each time just adds an unnecessary step ... I also believe that the whole concept of the game and its focus on producing and using massive armies is bad, because that shifts the focus away from the STRATEGY part and more towards ACTION and RESOURCE MANAGEMENT. Those arent things I would want to see as the most important part in an RTS and I feel that this focus from Blizzard is actually keeping the several units useless because lots of cheap units are actually more viable, easier to produce and ultimately more effective due to the ability to tightly stack them. The Carrier for instance could be "useable" if opponents didnt have the ability to pack 20-30 AA units in a tight clump and focus the expensive unit down in a second or two. In short: Blizzard is responsible for quite a lot of problems which hold the game back and they are too arrogant to acknowledge and change. On August 10 2013 03:49 renaissanceMAN wrote: SC2 doesn't need to grow, do we really want SC2 to be the only global esport? I for one, don't. I don't even want it to be the only RTS esport. No one wants that, but the question is: Can SC2 be better? For my part the answer is a clear YES, but the necessary changes seem unlikely to happen with the current dev team and managing directors. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
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Serpico
4285 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
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armada[sb]
United States432 Posts
Also, am I wrong for thinking that Blizzard has let the KeSPA Brood War past dictate their decisions as far as LAN and tournament licensing? | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On August 10 2013 03:49 gh0un wrote: Sc2 just doesnt have the potential to be entertaining forever. It gets repetitive real quick and "standard" builds and ways to play the game are figured out very quickly. From that point onward, standard macro games play out pretty much the same. If you compare it with dota, there is NO perfect way to play the game. What worked perfectly last game might not work aswell in the next game due to how the enemy changes their starting lanes and overall strategy (or lineup alltogether). There are just so many factors that have an effect on the outcome of a game (pickphase, starting lanes, ability to adapt and rotate the heroes around, item build, skill build, reaction, spidersenses, teamwork, knowledge of when to push/gank or farm, just to name a few), that you almost always have a different game at your hand. Sure, there is a metagame when it comes to popular hero picks, but even within that meta there are just so many factors that can change the outcome of a game that it is not even comparable to a typical meta in sc2. (broodlord infestor towards the end of WoL). I do think that sc2 still has a few years in it, but eventually i think it will die. Dota and lol should only become more popular as time goes by. You know its funny because your reply with regards to SC2 about being repetitive because of standard builds and ways to play the game are figured out very quickly could be used to describe BW as well. I have been saying this for the longest time: I really hate replays. I know it's a great tool to have, but when Blizzard first introduced it a patch for BW the first thing I said was, "Shit, now everyone's strategies are going to be streamlined." As it stands there are plenty of tournaments and VODs we can watch to figure shit out and get intel on players but Replays really are the bane of creative play and were always that way. Not to say BW gameplay is stagnant oh no sir. We've always had new maps being implemented in with the formation of the Professional Scene. Maps like Lost Temple, Luna, etc. all had their place in time. In some periods used way too fucking much. If there is one thing I'd do as a developer designing a RTS game I wouldn't have a replay feature. Not only would it help with the games evolution but perhaps you wouldn't see as many smurfs. There would still be a lot of them, but you know this way players can keep their shit more hush, hush. Sometimes less is more. | ||
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Noro
Canada991 Posts
On August 10 2013 04:04 superstartran wrote: SC2 took too long to get things fixed. For almost a full year you had nothing but Infestor deathballs/Colossus Deathballs/MMM and Blizzard refused to fix the problem. HotS isn't much better; you still have the same old dynamics, just minor changes here and there. They failed to make a game that is both interesting to watch and to play, i.e. they sucked it up. Not surprising at all. Yeah, honestly watching SC2 is just painful for me now. After watching it since Beta, the same 15-20 minute games that play out exactly the same every single time are just so boring. Protoss turtles till death ball - wins, Zerg roach rushes, wins, Zerg stops Protoss all game - Loses, Terran kills things with marines. You can tout creativity as much as you want but in the end 90% of the games I watch are games i've seen countless times before. Not to mention that the game is fizzling so hard that it's borderline depressing to even pay attention to now. Like it kills me the amount of viewers that people like Day 9 get now as opposed to what they once had. I love Day 9, but man is it depressing seeing numbers for these guys dwindling. Last night on twitch there were 4k viewers for SC2, 3.5k were Artosis and the last 500 were spread out across like 100 other streams. I guess this isn't really a how to fix things post, but if you still like watching SC2, then watch it. Because honestly I think that's the only way this community can keep it alive right now. Personally I'll always be drawn to the biggest and baddest -- LoL finals at the Staples Center, TI3 with the biggest prize pool in history? Why in the world would I ever choose to watch a 20k viewer stream of a WCS FINALS when any random tournament game for League or Dota will fetch 2, 3 even 4 times the viewer numbers without breaking a sweat. The community keeps the game going, and right now the community behind SC2 is dwindling while others thrive. Watch your game, because it goes a long way. /rant | ||
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renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
On August 10 2013 04:21 Noro wrote: Yeah, honestly watching SC2 is just painful for me now. After watching it since Beta, the same 15-20 minute games that play out exactly the same every single time are just so boring. Protoss turtles till death ball - wins, Zerg roach rushes, wins, Zerg stops Protoss all game - Loses, Terran kills things with marines. You can tout creativity as much as you want but in the end 90% of the games I watch are games i've seen countless times before. Not to mention that the game is fizzling so hard that it's borderline depressing to even pay attention to now. Like it kills me the amount of viewers that people like Day 9 get now as opposed to what they once had. I love Day 9, but man is it depressing seeing numbers for these guys dwindling. Last night on twitch there were 4k viewers for SC2, 3.5k were Artosis and the last 500 were spread out across like 100 other streams. I guess this isn't really a how to fix things post, but if you still like watching SC2, then watch it. Because honestly I think that's the only way this community can keep it alive right now. Personally I'll always be drawn to the biggest and baddest -- LoL finals at the Staples Center, TI3 with the biggest prize pool in history? Why in the world would I ever choose to watch a 20k viewer stream of a WCS FINALS when any random tournament game for League or Dota will fetch 2, 3 even 4 times the viewer numbers without breaking a sweat. The community keeps the game going, and right now the community behind SC2 is dwindling while others thrive. Watch your game, because it goes a long way. /rant Why does the number of people watching an event effect you watching what you want? | ||
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Nathanias
United States290 Posts
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Noro
Canada991 Posts
On August 10 2013 04:23 renaissanceMAN wrote: Why does the number of people watching an event effect you watching what you want? You don't think viewership adds to the experience? The LoL season 2 finals were held in this massive freaking stadium, every play that happened was followed by the screams of thousands and thousands of people while the stream numbers soared. You know you're sharing that experience with thousands and hundreds of thousands of people. And that makes it exciting. As opposed to a Starcraft game where there's one or two shouts from a crowd or no crowd at all, and there's barely 5k viewers. You tell me what's more exciting when those 5k viewers watch some korean they've never heard of cheese some NA kid to death. | ||
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Noobity
United States871 Posts
For the record, willing to work pro-bono on video and graphics for any tournament. All it takes is a community call and people with some skill will work for free until things pick up, or for portfolio/general experience building reasons. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On August 10 2013 04:23 renaissanceMAN wrote: Why does the number of people watching an event effect you watching what you want? The age old question. Pretty pathetic, don't you think? "Oh I cannot enjoy this anymore because it isn't trendy anymore. Just look at those numbers wah wah wah" I really wish some of you could hear yourselves or reflect back on what you post sometime because it is borderline cuckoo cuckoo. | ||
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renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
On August 10 2013 04:30 Noro wrote: You don't think viewership adds to the experience? The LoL season 2 finals were held in this massive freaking stadium, every play that happened was followed by the screams of thousands and thousands of people while the stream numbers soared. You know you're sharing that experience with thousands and hundreds of thousands of people. And that makes it exciting. As opposed to a Starcraft game where there's one or two shouts from a crowd or no crowd at all, and there's barely 5k viewers. You tell me what's more exciting when those 5k viewers watch some korean they've never heard of cheese some NA kid to death. The number of people at the event, yes that makes a difference, but I'm not going to choose an event based on the # of people viewing a stream; which is what he was talking about. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On August 10 2013 04:30 Noro wrote: You don't think viewership adds to the experience? The LoL season 2 finals were held in this massive freaking stadium, every play that happened was followed by the screams of thousands and thousands of people while the stream numbers soared. You know you're sharing that experience with thousands and hundreds of thousands of people. And that makes it exciting. As opposed to a Starcraft game where there's one or two shouts from a crowd or no crowd at all, and there's barely 5k viewers. You tell me what's more exciting when those 5k viewers watch some korean they've never heard of cheese some NA kid to death. You are sitting in a chair... watching a stream maybe with a few buddies? I know it gets loud when I'm with a few of my buds. Atmosphere is frigging excellent for me. It's not like your frigging there, so that energy your talking about is very minimal. If your there? Sure, the louder other people get the louder you will get because you have to talk over them. The stream numbers are irrelevant. We have a very, very good idea of what the turnouts are going to be. We know our base for each game that's been out for a few years. If your excited show your excitement. Stop being so insecure lol and I'd like to hear about this cheese you speak of because most people use it the wrong way. Just like all-in derp. | ||
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[]Phase[]
Belgium927 Posts
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