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On October 16 2013 05:12 cutler wrote:
this thread is not about the hardest game or if mobas are better or worse...its about finding ideas to make sc2 grow.
My next suggestion is that people trying to reduce their elitism and start to contribute instead of bashing newbies.
I tried to read strategy forum on TL today after a long time...a lot of harsh answers...
exactly. and i think the root of the issue here is deciding if we think the best way for sc2 to grow is to support the ability for new or casual players to enter the game, or support the hardcore competitive players to continue playing the game (or obviously a compromise).
my opinion is that for growth we must support as many new players as possible without compromising the core competitiveness of the game. this means deciding what we NEED for top-tier sc2 and what we can strip down and change to allow for newcomers. complexity isn`t necessarily depth, and the ability for the masses to improve at the game and stay engaged is just as important in my mind as the ability for consistent strategic and competitive complexity to emerge within the game.
mobas these days are often updated, giving players an engagement with the changing balance and meta-game - but this approach sacrifices the things we are so comfortable with in starcraft. concrete build orders, community guides and in-depth analysis of games played over a lengthy period of time, etc. starcraft has one hell of a community holding it together - and it didn`t come from nowhere.
if we do approach this from the other angle, we have to try and see what is holding us back as a community. what makes community difficult in sc2, what holds us back from enjoying tournaments and getting together for barcrafts, etc. what do players struggle with when finding practice partners or new methods or improving aside from mass-laddering. how can we make this community support itself better, even if it means making it a little less approachable for players who aren`t likely to get ` ìnto ` it anyway.
aaaaand i need to sleep...
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To gain new players, they *HAVE TO* fix their ridiculous 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 errors.
It's not possible to play a 4v4 without lag (changing to low doesn't change anything).
The entire team- play thing is kind of broken as it results in a all in to one play who isn't able to defend (because the mate is miles away) in a lot cases.
Blizzard's mistake was to be focused on 1v1 only.
Restricting custom maps, screw up BNet 2.0 and disallow private networks is another mistake they'll hopefully pay for.
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On October 17 2013 15:42 wishr wrote:
1. Force to F2P model
2. Create as much achievements as you can
3. Upgrade Battle.net with something interesting, maybe a Live-chat on a main screen, which players could not quit
4. Fix "army dead in 1sec" problem
5. Create a good marketing platform, especially in Korea
6. Implement a Region Lock into WCS system
7. Support more "small" tournaments
8. Adopt the game for newjoiners: built-in build-orders which can be viewed ingame, guides, etc
9. Maybe create a small department in Blizzard, which will provide a Gaming Houses rent in Korea
1. Agreed, but not before the rest of the model is completed.
2. Agreed, Achievements like different unit models (Including Skins,models, Animations, Sounds, -random example: lasershooting marines), personalize your army.
If it is a free2play model, it needs a map-store for Arcade maps.
3. Agreed, Auto join "Lobby Chat" like in Broodwar, automatically creating new Lobby Chats after one chat is full.
3a)
This is a good one, I think everyone will agree. The Twitch chat is pretty nice, but wouldn't it be much better if the new Battle.net launcher would have an integrated WCS-Streaming-Window including a SC2-WCS-Chatroom ? (Besides the planned Friendchat) - just an idea
4. They should just show (like in every other common sport) some kind of a live short slow-mo replay of important events. I know that the game continues while the replay is showed but I think its no problem, it works with other sports as well.
5. What do you want more when its for free?
6. I don't know.
7. Agreed, The WCS-Stream (3a) should stream more than just the official wcs-tournaments.
8. No way, people should play for fun in the first line, not to learn build orders and stuff. People will learn this by themselves anyway.
9.WCS - Planet
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1. Rework the arcade
2. Add a weekly "campaign mission" which doesn't really have to add anything to the lore but bring people to play the game at least once a week to to try to clean the zerg army blocking Jim's raynor way to the bar. The next week you have to hold the bar against the waves of zerg army etc. (It can also be some coop mission from times to times)
3. Add some special features to FFA, 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4. More map turnover, more fun features on the map (healing area, TP areas, lava flooding some areas of the map, mineral and vespene gas spawning etc.). These mods can't be balanced, blizzard should acknowledge it and use it to their advantage.
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Right now there are some major problems with tournament viewability. The major two being there are no 'home-town' heros to root for and the open feel of every tournament both of which could be fixed quite easily with a region lock. If Blizzard forced players to play and do well in a local small LANs (like a 16+ man from people in your city) as a requirement to play the online challenger league qualifiers it would solve a lot of problems. These LANs would of course be organized by the community.
First off it would solve the region lock issue at the same time as making challenger leauge feel more exclusive (that player had to win/do well at a local LAN first). In addition you get a really strong home-town hero effect all the way up through the brackets because if you went out to your local LAN you will probably meet someone who made a decent run into the qualifiers and you would root for them all the way through. It also gives a multiple good reason for communities to organize a LAN and greatly incre(imagine some up and comer having to come out to your LAN so he could play in an online qualifier). This would strengthen the community by a huge margin.
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After seeing dota's 6.79 patch. I'm kinda thinking, maybe this is the way of keeping people interested in game in today's world? Dota 2 is a little bit stale now, and meta is shifting too slowly. This overhaul patch will refresh everything, eventually the game will stagnate again, and they'll do another patch. But people will still be there, hungry for actions and new adventures. Maybe thats what sc2 needs now?
I'll hate myself if patch turns out to be fake.
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On October 18 2013 03:08 saddaromma wrote:
After seeing dota's 6.79 patch. I'm kinda thinking, maybe this is the way of keeping people interested in game in today's world? Dota 2 is a little bit stale now, and meta is shifting too slowly. This overhaul patch will refresh everything, eventually the game will stagnate again, and they'll do another patch. But people will still be there, hungry for actions and new adventures. Maybe thats what sc2 needs now?
I'll hate myself if patch turns out to be fake.
Dota is like mirrormatch every time, so you basically cant break the balance by changing everything. Not possible in SC2.
Ontopic I think the build-in buildorderhelper is a nice idea. You can pick from ~3 BOs per matchup with listed strength and weaknesses and get highlighted in top corner what to build when.
Like:
PvZ:
4 Gate - strong early attack (strong on small maps, strong against fast expansions, weak economics, weak midgame+)
Gate Nexus - active expansion (~)
Forge FE - safe/passive expansion (~)
Then you get on top corner: make pylon at expansion in 15s - countdown
make forge at pylon in 15 - countdown
etc for the first few minutes.
You know what to do and what you are good/weak against instead of having no clue at all. But thats 3 years too late I guess.
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On October 18 2013 03:19 mTwRINE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 03:08 saddaromma wrote:
After seeing dota's 6.79 patch. I'm kinda thinking, maybe this is the way of keeping people interested in game in today's world? Dota 2 is a little bit stale now, and meta is shifting too slowly. This overhaul patch will refresh everything, eventually the game will stagnate again, and they'll do another patch. But people will still be there, hungry for actions and new adventures. Maybe thats what sc2 needs now?
I'll hate myself if patch turns out to be fake. Dota is like mirrormatch every time, so you basically cant break the balance by changing everything. Not possible in SC2.
I don't think so.
If say, sc2 receives such an overhaul patch, its gonna be tested really hard before reslease, then by the time pro's work out optimal builds and timings, the game will be refreshed again. Players won't have time to figure out the best strategy (or OP one). And most likely, game will become unpredictable, but I think in such scenarios smart/creative players will shine the most, its better than watching "robots" doing same strategy over and over again.
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On October 18 2013 17:31 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 03:19 mTwRINE wrote:On October 18 2013 03:08 saddaromma wrote:
After seeing dota's 6.79 patch. I'm kinda thinking, maybe this is the way of keeping people interested in game in today's world? Dota 2 is a little bit stale now, and meta is shifting too slowly. This overhaul patch will refresh everything, eventually the game will stagnate again, and they'll do another patch. But people will still be there, hungry for actions and new adventures. Maybe thats what sc2 needs now?
I'll hate myself if patch turns out to be fake. Dota is like mirrormatch every time, so you basically cant break the balance by changing everything. Not possible in SC2. I don't think so. If say, sc2 receives such an overhaul patch, its gonna be tested really hard before reslease, then by the time pro's work out optimal builds and timings, the game will be refreshed again. Players won't have time to figure out the best strategy (or OP one). And most likely, game will become unpredictable, but I think in such scenarios smart/creative players will shine the most, its better than watching "robots" doing same strategy over and over again.
As mTwRINE pointed out, this isn't DOTA2. In DOTA2 both teams have the same options open to them. If a particular hero is too broken then they can be banned. Or they can first pick it. There's minor differences between Dire vs Radiant and which pick order you get; but they're tiny compared to the differences of playing Zerg, Protoss or Terran where you most definitely don't have the same options. Balancing takes a LOT of time and it can be years before people develop strategies and "figure out" units. If you're throwing the meta about too hard then it doesn't develop.
To put it simply: If a Hero is OP it doesn't matter because both teams have the opportunity to either ban or pick it. Or they can choose to directly counter it. If an SC2 race gets patched to be OP, or even just a specific unit is patched to be OP, then it wins hard and the other players aren't simply able to choose to ban it or pick it themselves.
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Have the community stop bitching and looking for drama at every tiny opportunity they get. What differentiates SC2 from a lot of competitors is our average age and disposable income; this is why SC2 is still attractive to sponsors.
If we try to look as respectful as possible, more brands would want their name connected to SC2, IMO, but instead, bitching reigns surpreme and a vocal minority gives a really negative outlook on SC2s popularity.
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On October 18 2013 21:47 SC2Toastie wrote:
Have the community stop bitching and looking for drama at every tiny opportunity they get. What differentiates SC2 from a lot of competitors is our average age and disposable income; this is why SC2 is still attractive to sponsors.
If we try to look as respectful as possible, more brands would want their name connected to SC2, IMO, but instead, bitching reigns surpreme and a vocal minority gives a really negative outlook on SC2s popularity.
Actually I think its quite the opposite. Age is a factor thats holding us back. Think of LoL and DotA2 viewership, mostly younger demograpic compared to us, video games/esports are just more appealing to that audience. Not to mention their games are F2P which enables easier access for their younger demographic, and easier to play. Whereas SC2 requires a hefty up front free, and has a steep learning curve. I find it quite natural that they have much higher fanbases.
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On October 18 2013 21:27 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 17:31 saddaromma wrote:On October 18 2013 03:19 mTwRINE wrote:On October 18 2013 03:08 saddaromma wrote:
After seeing dota's 6.79 patch. I'm kinda thinking, maybe this is the way of keeping people interested in game in today's world? Dota 2 is a little bit stale now, and meta is shifting too slowly. This overhaul patch will refresh everything, eventually the game will stagnate again, and they'll do another patch. But people will still be there, hungry for actions and new adventures. Maybe thats what sc2 needs now?
I'll hate myself if patch turns out to be fake. Dota is like mirrormatch every time, so you basically cant break the balance by changing everything. Not possible in SC2. I don't think so. If say, sc2 receives such an overhaul patch, its gonna be tested really hard before reslease, then by the time pro's work out optimal builds and timings, the game will be refreshed again. Players won't have time to figure out the best strategy (or OP one). And most likely, game will become unpredictable, but I think in such scenarios smart/creative players will shine the most, its better than watching "robots" doing same strategy over and over again. As mTwRINE pointed out, this isn't DOTA2. In DOTA2 both teams have the same options open to them. If a particular hero is too broken then they can be banned. Or they can first pick it. There's minor differences between Dire vs Radiant and which pick order you get; but they're tiny compared to the differences of playing Zerg, Protoss or Terran where you most definitely don't have the same options. Balancing takes a LOT of time and it can be years before people develop strategies and "figure out" units. If you're throwing the meta about too hard then it doesn't develop. To put it simply: If a Hero is OP it doesn't matter because both teams have the opportunity to either ban or pick it. Or they can choose to directly counter it. If an SC2 race gets patched to be OP, or even just a specific unit is patched to be OP, then it wins hard and the other players aren't simply able to choose to ban it or pick it themselves.
You quite don't get it. Blizzard will never release a patch with something obviously OP. Most of the OP stuff will show up later, when the game will get figured out (3-6 months I guess) and players still need time to learn the mechanics, timings and build orders. By that time Blizzard will release another patch which will reboot everything again. Players start exploring again and surprise us with new strats and all.
And frankly I don't get you people, so much denial and NO's. You're not even expert to know if it works in SC2 or not, you just say NO because its safe to say NO. Because most likely it will never happen. And thats the biggest problem of SC2. People are so afraid to do any ballzy moves because they're scared it will break the game, but who cares the game is already in dire situation. We can try every last ditch effort ffs.
LoL/Dota 2 are doing major changes even if the game is fine, its because they know how stuff works, the game needs to be refreshed. And frankly, their community also would call you IDIOT if you proposed such changes (before the patch realeased), but guess what, ITS POSSIBLE to be done and happens.
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On October 19 2013 00:52 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 21:27 -Celestial- wrote:On October 18 2013 17:31 saddaromma wrote:On October 18 2013 03:19 mTwRINE wrote:On October 18 2013 03:08 saddaromma wrote:
After seeing dota's 6.79 patch. I'm kinda thinking, maybe this is the way of keeping people interested in game in today's world? Dota 2 is a little bit stale now, and meta is shifting too slowly. This overhaul patch will refresh everything, eventually the game will stagnate again, and they'll do another patch. But people will still be there, hungry for actions and new adventures. Maybe thats what sc2 needs now?
I'll hate myself if patch turns out to be fake. Dota is like mirrormatch every time, so you basically cant break the balance by changing everything. Not possible in SC2. I don't think so. If say, sc2 receives such an overhaul patch, its gonna be tested really hard before reslease, then by the time pro's work out optimal builds and timings, the game will be refreshed again. Players won't have time to figure out the best strategy (or OP one). And most likely, game will become unpredictable, but I think in such scenarios smart/creative players will shine the most, its better than watching "robots" doing same strategy over and over again. As mTwRINE pointed out, this isn't DOTA2. In DOTA2 both teams have the same options open to them. If a particular hero is too broken then they can be banned. Or they can first pick it. There's minor differences between Dire vs Radiant and which pick order you get; but they're tiny compared to the differences of playing Zerg, Protoss or Terran where you most definitely don't have the same options. Balancing takes a LOT of time and it can be years before people develop strategies and "figure out" units. If you're throwing the meta about too hard then it doesn't develop. To put it simply: If a Hero is OP it doesn't matter because both teams have the opportunity to either ban or pick it. Or they can choose to directly counter it. If an SC2 race gets patched to be OP, or even just a specific unit is patched to be OP, then it wins hard and the other players aren't simply able to choose to ban it or pick it themselves. You quite don't get it. Blizzard will never release a patch with something obviously OP. Most of the OP stuff will show up later, when the game will get figured out (3-6 months I guess) and players still need time to learn the mechanics, timings and build orders. By that time Blizzard will release another patch which will reboot everything again. Players start exploring again and surprise us with new strats and all. And frankly I don't get you people, so much denial and NO's. You're not even expert to know if it works in SC2 or not, you just say NO because its safe to say NO. Because most likely it will never happen. And thats the biggest problem of SC2. People are so afraid to do any ballzy moves because they're scared it will break the game, but who cares the game is already in dire situation. We can try every last ditch effort ffs. LoL/Dota 2 are doing major changes even if the game is fine, its because they know how stuff works, the game needs to be refreshed. And frankly, their community also would call you IDIOT if you proposed such changes (before the patch realeased), but guess what, ITS POSSIBLE to be done and happens.
I think you dont get it, he is completely right, in mobas its ok if things are obviously better than other things, cause everybody can play/ban it. Why do you think there are so many champs that are picked/banned in almost 100% of the games? Cause they are better, some would say op. If thats the case in a rts game, you will only see one unit being made (kinda like warhound).
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On October 19 2013 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2013 00:52 saddaromma wrote:On October 18 2013 21:27 -Celestial- wrote:On October 18 2013 17:31 saddaromma wrote:On October 18 2013 03:19 mTwRINE wrote:On October 18 2013 03:08 saddaromma wrote:
After seeing dota's 6.79 patch. I'm kinda thinking, maybe this is the way of keeping people interested in game in today's world? Dota 2 is a little bit stale now, and meta is shifting too slowly. This overhaul patch will refresh everything, eventually the game will stagnate again, and they'll do another patch. But people will still be there, hungry for actions and new adventures. Maybe thats what sc2 needs now?
I'll hate myself if patch turns out to be fake. Dota is like mirrormatch every time, so you basically cant break the balance by changing everything. Not possible in SC2. I don't think so. If say, sc2 receives such an overhaul patch, its gonna be tested really hard before reslease, then by the time pro's work out optimal builds and timings, the game will be refreshed again. Players won't have time to figure out the best strategy (or OP one). And most likely, game will become unpredictable, but I think in such scenarios smart/creative players will shine the most, its better than watching "robots" doing same strategy over and over again. As mTwRINE pointed out, this isn't DOTA2. In DOTA2 both teams have the same options open to them. If a particular hero is too broken then they can be banned. Or they can first pick it. There's minor differences between Dire vs Radiant and which pick order you get; but they're tiny compared to the differences of playing Zerg, Protoss or Terran where you most definitely don't have the same options. Balancing takes a LOT of time and it can be years before people develop strategies and "figure out" units. If you're throwing the meta about too hard then it doesn't develop. To put it simply: If a Hero is OP it doesn't matter because both teams have the opportunity to either ban or pick it. Or they can choose to directly counter it. If an SC2 race gets patched to be OP, or even just a specific unit is patched to be OP, then it wins hard and the other players aren't simply able to choose to ban it or pick it themselves. You quite don't get it. Blizzard will never release a patch with something obviously OP. Most of the OP stuff will show up later, when the game will get figured out (3-6 months I guess) and players still need time to learn the mechanics, timings and build orders. By that time Blizzard will release another patch which will reboot everything again. Players start exploring again and surprise us with new strats and all. And frankly I don't get you people, so much denial and NO's. You're not even expert to know if it works in SC2 or not, you just say NO because its safe to say NO. Because most likely it will never happen. And thats the biggest problem of SC2. People are so afraid to do any ballzy moves because they're scared it will break the game, but who cares the game is already in dire situation. We can try every last ditch effort ffs. LoL/Dota 2 are doing major changes even if the game is fine, its because they know how stuff works, the game needs to be refreshed. And frankly, their community also would call you IDIOT if you proposed such changes (before the patch realeased), but guess what, ITS POSSIBLE to be done and happens. I think you dont get it, he is completely right, in mobas its ok if things are obviously better than other things, cause everybody can play/ban it. Why do you think there are so many champs that are picked/banned in almost 100% of the games? Cause they are better, some would say op. If thats the case in a rts game, you will only see one unit being made (kinda like warhound).
if we make raven's build time 50s down from 60s, will it break the game?
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Even the UI revamp patch got people really excited.
people just want new things that feels refreshing, even if it isn't going to change anything significantly to their gameplay experience
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On October 19 2013 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2013 00:52 saddaromma wrote:On October 18 2013 21:27 -Celestial- wrote:On October 18 2013 17:31 saddaromma wrote:On October 18 2013 03:19 mTwRINE wrote:On October 18 2013 03:08 saddaromma wrote:
After seeing dota's 6.79 patch. I'm kinda thinking, maybe this is the way of keeping people interested in game in today's world? Dota 2 is a little bit stale now, and meta is shifting too slowly. This overhaul patch will refresh everything, eventually the game will stagnate again, and they'll do another patch. But people will still be there, hungry for actions and new adventures. Maybe thats what sc2 needs now?
I'll hate myself if patch turns out to be fake. Dota is like mirrormatch every time, so you basically cant break the balance by changing everything. Not possible in SC2. I don't think so. If say, sc2 receives such an overhaul patch, its gonna be tested really hard before reslease, then by the time pro's work out optimal builds and timings, the game will be refreshed again. Players won't have time to figure out the best strategy (or OP one). And most likely, game will become unpredictable, but I think in such scenarios smart/creative players will shine the most, its better than watching "robots" doing same strategy over and over again. As mTwRINE pointed out, this isn't DOTA2. In DOTA2 both teams have the same options open to them. If a particular hero is too broken then they can be banned. Or they can first pick it. There's minor differences between Dire vs Radiant and which pick order you get; but they're tiny compared to the differences of playing Zerg, Protoss or Terran where you most definitely don't have the same options. Balancing takes a LOT of time and it can be years before people develop strategies and "figure out" units. If you're throwing the meta about too hard then it doesn't develop. To put it simply: If a Hero is OP it doesn't matter because both teams have the opportunity to either ban or pick it. Or they can choose to directly counter it. If an SC2 race gets patched to be OP, or even just a specific unit is patched to be OP, then it wins hard and the other players aren't simply able to choose to ban it or pick it themselves. You quite don't get it. Blizzard will never release a patch with something obviously OP. Most of the OP stuff will show up later, when the game will get figured out (3-6 months I guess) and players still need time to learn the mechanics, timings and build orders. By that time Blizzard will release another patch which will reboot everything again. Players start exploring again and surprise us with new strats and all. And frankly I don't get you people, so much denial and NO's. You're not even expert to know if it works in SC2 or not, you just say NO because its safe to say NO. Because most likely it will never happen. And thats the biggest problem of SC2. People are so afraid to do any ballzy moves because they're scared it will break the game, but who cares the game is already in dire situation. We can try every last ditch effort ffs. LoL/Dota 2 are doing major changes even if the game is fine, its because they know how stuff works, the game needs to be refreshed. And frankly, their community also would call you IDIOT if you proposed such changes (before the patch realeased), but guess what, ITS POSSIBLE to be done and happens. I think you dont get it, he is completely right, in mobas its ok if things are obviously better than other things, cause everybody can play/ban it. Why do you think there are so many champs that are picked/banned in almost 100% of the games? Cause they are better, some would say op. If thats the case in a rts game, you will only see one unit being made (kinda like warhound).
Roaches are obviously better than hydras or stalkers or banelings.
Marines are obviously better than marauders or roaches.
Yes, that does mean we will see more roach or marine play in general, then hydralisk or marauder play. But no, that does not mean we will
only see one unit being made .
Because as much as the roach outshines the hydralisk, as much it simply cannot attack air. And as much roach/hydra is stronger than monoroach. And as much you cannot build only marines without being countered by only banelings.
Fact of the matter is, that some units are just better overall and if you'd have to choose blindly against a random composition, they would perform statistically better. But for as long as every unit has some downsides that you can abuse against them by dynamic play(styles), for that long we won't
only see one unit being made .
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On October 19 2013 00:59 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2013 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 19 2013 00:52 saddaromma wrote:On October 18 2013 21:27 -Celestial- wrote:On October 18 2013 17:31 saddaromma wrote:On October 18 2013 03:19 mTwRINE wrote:On October 18 2013 03:08 saddaromma wrote:
After seeing dota's 6.79 patch. I'm kinda thinking, maybe this is the way of keeping people interested in game in today's world? Dota 2 is a little bit stale now, and meta is shifting too slowly. This overhaul patch will refresh everything, eventually the game will stagnate again, and they'll do another patch. But people will still be there, hungry for actions and new adventures. Maybe thats what sc2 needs now?
I'll hate myself if patch turns out to be fake. Dota is like mirrormatch every time, so you basically cant break the balance by changing everything. Not possible in SC2. I don't think so. If say, sc2 receives such an overhaul patch, its gonna be tested really hard before reslease, then by the time pro's work out optimal builds and timings, the game will be refreshed again. Players won't have time to figure out the best strategy (or OP one). And most likely, game will become unpredictable, but I think in such scenarios smart/creative players will shine the most, its better than watching "robots" doing same strategy over and over again. As mTwRINE pointed out, this isn't DOTA2. In DOTA2 both teams have the same options open to them. If a particular hero is too broken then they can be banned. Or they can first pick it. There's minor differences between Dire vs Radiant and which pick order you get; but they're tiny compared to the differences of playing Zerg, Protoss or Terran where you most definitely don't have the same options. Balancing takes a LOT of time and it can be years before people develop strategies and "figure out" units. If you're throwing the meta about too hard then it doesn't develop. To put it simply: If a Hero is OP it doesn't matter because both teams have the opportunity to either ban or pick it. Or they can choose to directly counter it. If an SC2 race gets patched to be OP, or even just a specific unit is patched to be OP, then it wins hard and the other players aren't simply able to choose to ban it or pick it themselves. You quite don't get it. Blizzard will never release a patch with something obviously OP. Most of the OP stuff will show up later, when the game will get figured out (3-6 months I guess) and players still need time to learn the mechanics, timings and build orders. By that time Blizzard will release another patch which will reboot everything again. Players start exploring again and surprise us with new strats and all. And frankly I don't get you people, so much denial and NO's. You're not even expert to know if it works in SC2 or not, you just say NO because its safe to say NO. Because most likely it will never happen. And thats the biggest problem of SC2. People are so afraid to do any ballzy moves because they're scared it will break the game, but who cares the game is already in dire situation. We can try every last ditch effort ffs. LoL/Dota 2 are doing major changes even if the game is fine, its because they know how stuff works, the game needs to be refreshed. And frankly, their community also would call you IDIOT if you proposed such changes (before the patch realeased), but guess what, ITS POSSIBLE to be done and happens. I think you dont get it, he is completely right, in mobas its ok if things are obviously better than other things, cause everybody can play/ban it. Why do you think there are so many champs that are picked/banned in almost 100% of the games? Cause they are better, some would say op. If thats the case in a rts game, you will only see one unit being made (kinda like warhound). if we make raven's build time 50s down from 60s, will it break the game?
No, it wouldn't break the game. In fact, I would so far as to say it wouldn't change a single thing about the metagame or the attitudes of the people playing/watching it.
Starcraft is not a MOBA, and cannot be changed like a MOBA can. If a gigantic overhaul patch came through and made say Protoss super overpowered, Terran and Zerg players can not simply ban Protoss from being played that game. And neither can they simply play Protoss instead, because a race in Starcraft is infinitely more complex than a League of Legends of Dota hero.
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On October 18 2013 21:47 SC2Toastie wrote:
Have the community stop bitching and looking for drama at every tiny opportunity they get. What differentiates SC2 from a lot of competitors is our average age and disposable income; this is why SC2 is still attractive to sponsors.
If we try to look as respectful as possible, more brands would want their name connected to SC2, IMO, but instead, bitching reigns surpreme and a vocal minority gives a really negative outlook on SC2s popularity.
Good point but hard to judge.
How many casual games did the average SC2 viewer/player purchase recently? How often do you (/need to, referring to last question) upgrade your PC, would you spend money on "pointless" cosmetics in and outside of games?
We are a niche inside a niche, maybe thats a bit too much too be good, but Im not sure about the demographics/consume habits.
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On October 19 2013 01:15 HystericaLaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2013 00:59 saddaromma wrote:On October 19 2013 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 19 2013 00:52 saddaromma wrote:On October 18 2013 21:27 -Celestial- wrote:On October 18 2013 17:31 saddaromma wrote:On October 18 2013 03:19 mTwRINE wrote:On October 18 2013 03:08 saddaromma wrote:
After seeing dota's 6.79 patch. I'm kinda thinking, maybe this is the way of keeping people interested in game in today's world? Dota 2 is a little bit stale now, and meta is shifting too slowly. This overhaul patch will refresh everything, eventually the game will stagnate again, and they'll do another patch. But people will still be there, hungry for actions and new adventures. Maybe thats what sc2 needs now?
I'll hate myself if patch turns out to be fake. Dota is like mirrormatch every time, so you basically cant break the balance by changing everything. Not possible in SC2. I don't think so. If say, sc2 receives such an overhaul patch, its gonna be tested really hard before reslease, then by the time pro's work out optimal builds and timings, the game will be refreshed again. Players won't have time to figure out the best strategy (or OP one). And most likely, game will become unpredictable, but I think in such scenarios smart/creative players will shine the most, its better than watching "robots" doing same strategy over and over again. As mTwRINE pointed out, this isn't DOTA2. In DOTA2 both teams have the same options open to them. If a particular hero is too broken then they can be banned. Or they can first pick it. There's minor differences between Dire vs Radiant and which pick order you get; but they're tiny compared to the differences of playing Zerg, Protoss or Terran where you most definitely don't have the same options. Balancing takes a LOT of time and it can be years before people develop strategies and "figure out" units. If you're throwing the meta about too hard then it doesn't develop. To put it simply: If a Hero is OP it doesn't matter because both teams have the opportunity to either ban or pick it. Or they can choose to directly counter it. If an SC2 race gets patched to be OP, or even just a specific unit is patched to be OP, then it wins hard and the other players aren't simply able to choose to ban it or pick it themselves. You quite don't get it. Blizzard will never release a patch with something obviously OP. Most of the OP stuff will show up later, when the game will get figured out (3-6 months I guess) and players still need time to learn the mechanics, timings and build orders. By that time Blizzard will release another patch which will reboot everything again. Players start exploring again and surprise us with new strats and all. And frankly I don't get you people, so much denial and NO's. You're not even expert to know if it works in SC2 or not, you just say NO because its safe to say NO. Because most likely it will never happen. And thats the biggest problem of SC2. People are so afraid to do any ballzy moves because they're scared it will break the game, but who cares the game is already in dire situation. We can try every last ditch effort ffs. LoL/Dota 2 are doing major changes even if the game is fine, its because they know how stuff works, the game needs to be refreshed. And frankly, their community also would call you IDIOT if you proposed such changes (before the patch realeased), but guess what, ITS POSSIBLE to be done and happens. I think you dont get it, he is completely right, in mobas its ok if things are obviously better than other things, cause everybody can play/ban it. Why do you think there are so many champs that are picked/banned in almost 100% of the games? Cause they are better, some would say op. If thats the case in a rts game, you will only see one unit being made (kinda like warhound). if we make raven's build time 50s down from 60s, will it break the game? No, it wouldn't break the game. In fact, I would so far as to say it wouldn't change a single thing about the metagame or the attitudes of the people playing/watching it. Starcraft is not a MOBA, and cannot be changed like a MOBA can. If a gigantic overhaul patch came through and made say Protoss super overpowered, Terran and Zerg players can not simply ban Protoss from being played that game. And neither can they simply play Protoss instead, because a race in Starcraft is infinitely more complex than a League of Legends of Dota hero.
There are no such patches in Mobas either, so your point is simply not realistic. Of course noone proposes patches that make stalkers free or roaches fly. Starcraft is not as volatile as you put it. MC/Nestea could win GSLs at a time which we consider quite pro-Terran these days.
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A major part of starcraft is how much power your opponent has to prevent you from playing the game you want to play,
from a casual point of view that can make playing stressful and not something you really want to do with your free time.
From a competitive point of view that is a strength and part of the strategy. Although even some pro players have problems with it insulting an opponent who beats them basically because they played against their weaknesses and prevented them from using their strengths.
I think I am right in remembering that at the start of Wol there were practice matches available which were at a slower speed and had destructible rocks blocking ground routes to the starting bases, would making say bronze league play at fast speed instead of faster make it more accessible or is that going to far?
Also some of the arcade maps like monobattles can be more fun, they could be made more of a feature.
Take an idea like fun day monday, create a mode that gives you some random 'dumb' goals to achieve, beyond just trying to win and move up a ladder. Perhaps many people that don't play don't realise how many other games the arcade provides,
that may get more people playing and even if they don't play in the ladder they may take more notice when a tournament is on and be drawn in.
I would guess for most people watching the high level tournaments is always going to be more entertaining than stressing out trying to improve in the 1v1 ladder.
This is just like every other sport, how many watch but don't play, even for those that do how many actually play in a competitive league instead of just for fun with friends?
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EPT
