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I know some guy out there can do a better job then I did at this, but no one has yet, maybe a admin can edit a lot of this to help.
After hearing MLG dropping Starcraft for Columbus I've seen people like iNcontroL write up things (Geoff's thread http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1jz4u5/lets_have_a_chat/)
So I think we should all write something in here about what can make Starcraft a better environment for gamers and get the best possible viewership it can. Geoff's right we can all agree that Starcraft will never be the top game for people to watch. Why? Because the game in very repetitive. And because (I feel) it's 1v1 and because there is no tournament with a massive prize pool every-year like LoL, Dota, CoD, Fifa. but we do have WCS which I think in everyone's eyes hasn't done to well, no hate to Korea and ESL, they done great and NASL so far is looking extremely good with their look into the players before they play in Ro16.
Obviously everyone has different views on how the tournament would like to be. So why don't we share ideas? You never know, one idea may stand out and many of us agree on and why Starcraft is losing viewers and why WCS numbers aren't where they were aimed to be at.
So lets all write in comments how you think Starcraft can improve and Blizzard can get viewership it deserves
July 2013 Top 50 Streamers
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=423963
July 2012 Top 50 Streamers
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=357470
Although Viewers haven't really changed by a big margin, yes the top 10 have less viewers then a year ago but that's because of things like WCS, many more streamers now. So us an community are doing a good job still but we need to increase the viewers and I feel that's up to mainly Blizzard, they make MLG pay them for their game to be played, when other games don't, and they have limits etc that basically hurt future organisations who want to grow and be successful.
My view and to help you think:
What did WCS do wrong?
• Is WCS seasons too long?
• Is it to the fact WCS messed up and had 16 qualify and 16 invited first season which lead to players missing out a season and that should be in those 16 players ''invited'', I mean you look now the Ro32 players are much better then season one is EU and AM.
• Is it because the prize-pool is to small for such a drawn out 1 year tournament?
• Letting Koreans take part in an American and European section when they have their own? Fair enough the skill of Koreans is of much higher standard.
• Shouldn't WCS just give points to people who place well at LAN events then have a WCS Final that way?
• Wouldn't it help if MLG invited Kespa players so they get more viewers.
• Are Blizzard just too stubborn to listen to the community yet they try make SC a competitive game because they think they're always right?
EDIT/UPDATE
So who's happy with the current balance of the game and the new patch that might take place? And if not what would you do?
Poll: Happy with the current state of the gameNo.. Why? (52) 59% Yes (36) 41% 88 total votes Your vote: Happy with the current state of the game (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No.. Why?
Thank you
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WCS doesn't have that feeling of exclusivity at all and conflicts with many others tournaments as well. It feels like anyone can compete anywhere they want given enough effort. So with that being said it kinda waters down the entire experience for many. Yes some people want to watch Koreans just destroy all the foreigners but there are groups of people who enjoy foreigners competing against each other. Given the trend I have a feeling WCS viewership will bottom out eventually and it will be business as usual.
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We're 3 years into it, its kinda safe to say the SC2 boom has passed and we should be expecting a decline. The numbers never could touch the free to play games, to be honest speed running Zelda 64 today gets more viewers than some SC2 tournaments. Sad but true and it raises more money through donations whereas SC2 fans hate dropping $5 for a ticket. I'm speculating SC2 will have to go back to being a niche game like the old BW days but to be honest I know nothing.
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It's up to Blizzard to fix the game on a fundamental level, unfortunately Blizzard is the least likely to do anything because sc2 isn't their main source of income.
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the post by destiny was actually spot on regarding the issues of playerbase. honestly its mainly because most people couldnt wait 3 years for them to fix the fundamental issues that blizzard done wrong
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On August 09 2013 23:23 Esoterikk wrote:
It's up to Blizzard to fix the game on a fundamental level, unfortunately Blizzard is the least likely to do anything because sc2 isn't their main source of income.
They could "fix" anything. Realtime strategy still is not as attractive as a whole as other genres. One should rather look at the success of SC2: The first global esports RTS.
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On August 09 2013 23:31 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 23:23 Esoterikk wrote:
It's up to Blizzard to fix the game on a fundamental level, unfortunately Blizzard is the least likely to do anything because sc2 isn't their main source of income. They could "fix" anything. Realtime strategy still is not as attractive as a whole as other genres. One should rather look at the success of SC2: The first global esports RTS.
Honestly for most players sc2 isn't an rts game. It only is at the top levels of play. Sc2 is a very mechanical and motor-memory trained game and herein lies the problem. It's not a strategy game for most or a game that attracts a larger audience due to the subtlety in appreciating high level play. There is no "noob" fan base like they had in bw or in Moba games.
Lots of players will complain but to make sc2 more popular you need to dumb down the mechanics and up the excitement factors and flashy plays/strategies. If you look at all the memorable matches, they weren't your standard metagame games, they were either flashy, game breaking, or just awesomely cheesy or close.
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The learning curve for starcraft is pretty high and we can't expect new gamers to be into a game that is 3 yrs old and over 10 + for SC/BW. As of now, we should expect a decline in interest for gamers and a massive increase for F2P games like LoL, HoN, and DoTA2. The learning curve for these MoBA games aren't that high and anyone can pick it up.
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On August 09 2013 21:41 aka_star wrote:
We're 3 years into it, its kinda safe to say the SC2 boom has passed and we should be expecting a decline. The numbers never could touch the free to play games, to be honest speed running Zelda 64 today gets more viewers than some SC2 tournaments. Sad but true and it raises more money through donations whereas SC2 fans hate dropping $5 for a ticket. I'm speculating SC2 will have to go back to being a niche game like the old BW days but to be honest I know nothing.
BW was a niche game outside of Korea. In Korea, BW was one of the country's biggest sports. The problem today is that SC2 is a niche game in Korea.
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First of all, lets remember this is blizzard we're talking about if we go by their history of games releases the initial game is usually buggy but the expansions tend to fix most of the issues. WCS 2012 Was pretty good in a few regions kinda buggy and unsustainable. So were currently in blizzard WCS 1.2.0 so personally i cant wait for 2014 because right now blizzard cant change anything big for the wcs format till 2014. So i'm expecting in blizzard tradition for the WCS expansion (2014) pack to be a really good release  .
+ Show Spoiler +
Seriously Compare sc1 to scbw
diablo 2 to d2 lod
WC3 to TFT
wol to hots
Even in Wow vanilla had tons of issues and burning crusade helped it a ton
But anyway has WCS been a failure ... really? More players are getting payed. I've personally heard of and learned about more non koreans with the WCS then at the end of wings. At the end of wings other then koreans all you really heard about in tournaments were Stephano, Scarlett and right at the end Snute.
Look at this year however, things likeeurope Welmu just barely missing out on a place in premier the qualifiers was a big story. Strong finishes letting TLO, Stephano and Dimaga getting to the world finals. Moonglade and snute getting far in WCS America against the korean invasion. Suppy taking out both heart and ryung. Being exposed to the chinese and australian scenes.
I personally feel there hasnt been this much "interaction" with the non korean scene since 2010 and early 2011 before the koreans went global.
Additionally from an entertainment value point of view Korea has either stayed the same or got better. From what i've read it seems like since kespa switched over to sc2 popularity inside korea has improved. Then WCS EU in itself has been a massive success. WCS America was tricky but now in the hands of NASL it seems to be making great strides. Then i also like how the points system seems to be adding another dynamic to tournaments like dreamhack.
So personally i like the product they have but there are issues. I HOPE that in 2014 the scheduling is done and announced months in advance. I hope the events become more offline i dont think blizzard need to region lock it but i do think they need to disincentivize korean players going to america. Id also like to see more information on the non-compete rule. But if scheduling is done and released months in advance it would make it so much easier for other tournaments to plan around that. Also i'd like to see something more done with the american scene but i dont know what would help out. NASL are doing a great job with WCS US which will help. Maybe that Redbull thing thats been hinted will help out etc.
But essentially i dont see that korea/eu are having issues, america may have problems but NASL might be helping to solve that already.
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On August 09 2013 21:17 Batiste wrote:• Are Blizzard just too stubborn to listen to the community yet they try make SC a competitive game because they think they're always right?
I think this is such a huge thing that can't really be decided. Who knows how many people it takes to change a lightbulb at Blizzard. I dunno the inner-doings of that place, and those who know SOME THINGS often say that Blizzard understands and that they're trying to work on it. :S So who the hell knows.
I think that a community-driven shift in the way things are done will probably lead blizzard in a specific direction (i.e. less tournaments/change in leagues) and go along with it. On the other hand, Blizzard might not want to let go of the WCS and change it instead. Who knows, they can take a page from League of Legends and start paying people's salaries per region or something.
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battle net in general sucks too. The arcade system is horrible and why there isnt tournaments everyday like wc3 i have no idea...
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If playing starcraft 2 made you feel more like a general commanding a war, and less like a battle or a chess match, it would garner a highest viewership. No matter how cool the game looks from a spectator's point of view, it is lacking the element of "epicness" that can't come from cool laser beams.
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honestly sc2 just doesn't feel like a casual game, take 10 minutes to build up an army and lose it in seconds.. i think the game is just frustrating for new players with not much action just farming them minerals n gas. I don't have the answers but the community has been talking about these problems for years now but blizzard refuses to listen. The average gamer won't go on the forums to complain, they will just stop playing the game.
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I believe the problem is not WCS or any tournament at all,
the problem is sc2
It has so many flaws and right now the game is not in a good shape, everymatchup involving protoss is garbage
for example
Unit composition vs unit composition. The battle can end in an instant and its over.
Zerg cant beat a limit armee of protoss without swarmhosts, thats utterly bad and boring in the long run
Wol was like that for three years but zerg had eventually buffed infestor+broodlord which was also utterly boring and protoss had a really tough time to take that armee head on, so it was reversed there
Blizzard decided to wait, to let someone figure it out even if the unit composition was a discgrace to the name of starcraft and rts in general
THe deathball syndrome, which makes it really hard to
1) Get units outside the deathball to do some small battle/harassment
2) Get many workers (65 is standard, some matchups go higher but in general never over 100)
Get 3base, saturat, now macro up
Thats the standard thing which is terrible terrible terrible
Zerg can stack up over 50+ larva on 3bases with 4hatcheries
Terran can sack the precious Scv (workers) for bigger armee then anyone else because of mule
So many faults, i can name more but cant come up right now
but these are enough
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I do not read a lot of topics on TL.net and close to nothing on reddit, since I'm more or less the most casual Starcraft 2 gamer in existence. But I do watch my fair share of streams and tournaments and the only thing sparking my interest are personalities.
E.g. if TLO or Flash are not playing, I'm most of the time not watching. I think both players are really interesting both through their gaming history, growth and development overall. I care about how they do, it engages me on a emotional level.
Over the last few days, there popped a couple of threads regarding Stephano's retirement and he got to make a personal statement live within one of the biggest tournaments around. His personality is big in Starcraft 2 and I remember tournament streaming numbers went down considerably when he got eliminated.
Since Starcraft 2 is mainly a 1 on 1 game, teams are not that important overall, in my opinion. Although both Liquid and EvilGenius are doing a great job promoting them with behind the scene videos and such, which I very much like, in the end it comes down to the players and not the team since only one guy or girl can stand in the spotlight.
The other thing what really bothers me is that there is no clear structure (at least for me) within all the tournaments. I miss something like leagues in soccer (see Code A / Code S).
If there is a tournament, I don't want to search Liquipedia or such to know what format it uses and which players can participate how and most of all I don't want it to end with just winning some money.
I want a general league with ranking like the Power Rank (maybe just for the regions), which does not reset completely each season but - like soccer leagues - has up and downs for the last and first couple of players.
I want to see at a quick glance at which level the players are playing.
Yeah, so for me: It's more personalities and (self-)promoting and a clear league system instead of all the various independent tournaments, which fight for affection.
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On August 09 2013 23:38 peidongyang wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 23:31 [F_]aths wrote:On August 09 2013 23:23 Esoterikk wrote:
It's up to Blizzard to fix the game on a fundamental level, unfortunately Blizzard is the least likely to do anything because sc2 isn't their main source of income. They could "fix" anything. Realtime strategy still is not as attractive as a whole as other genres. One should rather look at the success of SC2: The first global esports RTS. Honestly for most players sc2 isn't an rts game. It only is at the top levels of play. Sc2 is a very mechanical and motor-memory trained game and herein lies the problem. It's not a strategy game for most or a game that attracts a larger audience due to the subtlety in appreciating high level play. There is no "noob" fan base like they had in bw or in Moba games. Lots of players will complain but to make sc2 more popular you need to dumb down the mechanics and up the excitement factors and flashy plays/strategies. If you look at all the memorable matches, they weren't your standard metagame games, they were either flashy, game breaking, or just awesomely cheesy or close.
Dumb downed mechanics and flashy plays make the game more boring in my opinion.
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Starcraft has way too many upsets, some may say this is good, but I think its bad. Some problems with the game
- too static. the game isn't made for dynamics so whenever something dynamic happens it upsets the flow - hence all the upsets
- the game isn't relaxing enough. after work I want to relax and play a game and Starcraft is too difficult mechanically and I don't find it fun. (was high masters WoL and Masters in HoTS)
- Way too much balance whine (main reason I quit playing). This is probably caused from how difficult the game is, people put so much effort into it and when they loose its natural to balance external factors
Compare it to Dota 2
- Built on dynamics and chaos, so much room for creativity
- Game is relaxing, and if you have a few friends that you play with its great fun
- Not as many upsets, generally the favorites win
Ideas
- Less balance whining and elitism in general by the community
- Allow more creativity in the game (not sure how this will be accomplished but I'm sure Blizzard's game developers could figure something out if they wanted to)
- Don't know how it can get more casual players into the game because if they make the game easier then the skill gap between top players will continue to narrow so its kind of a paradox right now. Maybe have two different "modes" of the game, easy and difficult? Prob a terrible idea but I'm sure someone else has better
EDIT: A major problem with the game not being fun is the lack of interaction. If u look at WoW, Dota2 these are games you can hop on with 5 or more friends, create a party and have lots of fun. Yes Starcraft has team play but it seriously sucks.
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There are several things regarding SC2 that are not going well.
The game/bnet itself:
- the game is basically balanced (though it has a protoss tendency recently. let's check next WCS before crying "go nerf", okay?), but, IMO, the required mechanics, micro and macro are on a totally different level for each race (T>Z>P)
- Battle.net-Lobby is not really designed for an online(community based) game. The only thing that is used by 100% of the players? The friend list. Everything else is either an unnecessary feature or used by a minority (e.g. channels - mostly used for tournament organisation)
- Arcade. I do not know about a more unprofessional matchmaking system than the Blizzard Arcade. Seriously. Arcade ruins some maps, the lobbies crash kinda often... This is not what I paid 40-60bucks (twice with HotS..) for.
- when adding new maps to the mappool, there's always 1-2 maps that are simply a joke. Those maps are known for being a joke before. Why still put them in? Where's the problem of filtering the map veto ladder data? Blizzard put so many game data features in lately.
- complete disregard of 2v2, 3v3, 4v4. Why? I do know that tournaments are always 1on1-based. But the watcher majority does not consist of pure 1on2-master/gm-players but of people that kind of enjoy playing a 3on3 with friends sometimes. I do not have proof of that, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.
WCS:
- get koreans out of NA/EU. Seriously. Where's the point of determining the "WCS EU winner", the very best man of EU, when he's a korean? Do you think that this will have a push impact on the scene? Yes, it will - professional foreigner support will be pushed back and back and back. Or is it for the chills of a foreigner beating a korean (because that is what we all want in our hearts..)? Then why don't you send the five best AM and EU players to a TRUELY global final - and watch innovation fall in a bo5 to sjow/hasuobs/scarlett/whoever? Yeah, might not happen too often. But, that way, you actually do support EU/NA scene with your prize money, you're not giving it to koreans for, well, basically free.
- well, here's a good thing: keep up the high value production. I really enjoy watching ESL/MLG/NASL-WCS-work - it's pretty badass, especially the ESL live events.
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On August 10 2013 00:19 Foxxan wrote:
I believe the problem is not WCS or any tournament at all,
the problem is sc2
It has so many flaws and right now the game is not in a good shape, everymatchup involving protoss is garbage
for example
Unit composition vs unit composition. The battle can end in an instant and its over.
Zerg cant beat a limit armee of protoss without swarmhosts, thats utterly bad and boring in the long run
Wol was like that for three years but zerg had eventually buffed infestor+broodlord which was also utterly boring and protoss had a really tough time to take that armee head on, so it was reversed there
Blizzard decided to wait, to let someone figure it out even if the unit composition was a discgrace to the name of starcraft and rts in general
THe deathball syndrome, which makes it really hard to
1) Get units outside the deathball to do some small battle/harassment
2) Get many workers (65 is standard, some matchups go higher but in general never over 100)
Get 3base, saturat, now macro up
Thats the standard thing which is terrible terrible terrible
Zerg can stack up over 50+ larva on 3bases with 4hatcheries
Terran can sack the precious Scv (workers) for bigger armee then anyone else because of mule
So many faults, i can name more but cant come up right now
but these are enough
You can name more even though you can't?
All "issues" you mention are no real issues in my eyes. Either you describe the existence of a standard strategy, which is a good thing since it gives the spectating experience some structure and allows for mind games. Or you explain some powerful capabilities as if it would be a bad thing that races have powerful abilities which however are balanced out by some vulnerabilities.
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Do something about it, instead of talking about it.
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Battle.net 2.0 is the epitome of everything that is wrong with the current RTS Esports scene.
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Why is there a new thread on improving "eSports" every single month
Can't you guys just all collaborate together and actually do something productive instead
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We need popular custom maps. My fondest memories of BW was 4v4 big game hunters and War3 had DotA.
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On August 10 2013 00:53 Whatson wrote:
Why is there a new thread on improving "eSports" every single month
Can't you guys just all collaborate together and actually do something productive instead
it usually just results in blaming blizzard and thats it
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sc2 is just not fun for people any more and no one can enforce ppl to enjoy what they don't like to do
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On August 10 2013 00:57 tshi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 00:53 Whatson wrote:
Why is there a new thread on improving "eSports" every single month
Can't you guys just all collaborate together and actually do something productive instead it usually just results in blaming blizzard and thats it
We should just make a "I hate Blizzard/battle.net and WCS thread". Then we should put it behind a spoiler tag that says "Do you want to dislike SC2 more, click here."
It worked for Balance, why not Blizzard hate.
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On August 10 2013 01:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 00:57 tshi wrote:On August 10 2013 00:53 Whatson wrote:
Why is there a new thread on improving "eSports" every single month
Can't you guys just all collaborate together and actually do something productive instead it usually just results in blaming blizzard and thats it We should just make a "I hate Blizzard/battle.net and WCS thread". Then we should put it behind a spoiler tag that says "Do you want to dislike SC2 more, click here." It worked for Balance, why not Blizzard hate.
I think this would be a pretty good topic and it would also get Blizzard´s attention eventually.
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On August 10 2013 01:04 Viserion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 01:01 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 00:57 tshi wrote:On August 10 2013 00:53 Whatson wrote:
Why is there a new thread on improving "eSports" every single month
Can't you guys just all collaborate together and actually do something productive instead it usually just results in blaming blizzard and thats it We should just make a "I hate Blizzard/battle.net and WCS thread". Then we should put it behind a spoiler tag that says "Do you want to dislike SC2 more, click here." It worked for Balance, why not Blizzard hate. I think this would be a pretty good topic and it would also get Blizzard´s attention eventually.
I thought the purpose would rather be to instantly know who to ignore...
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about wcs: decision to let ppl play in other regions is just bad. There are so many other tournaments with multiregion participants, why cant we have one that would be different? I'd love to watch EU or NA (ok maybe not NA not so much) only tournament instead of yet another korean stomp festival. I know that skill level of finals would be much lower this way but there is gsl if you want to watch super hiper top lvl play.
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On August 10 2013 01:05 Passion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 01:04 Viserion wrote:On August 10 2013 01:01 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 00:57 tshi wrote:On August 10 2013 00:53 Whatson wrote:
Why is there a new thread on improving "eSports" every single month
Can't you guys just all collaborate together and actually do something productive instead it usually just results in blaming blizzard and thats it We should just make a "I hate Blizzard/battle.net and WCS thread". Then we should put it behind a spoiler tag that says "Do you want to dislike SC2 more, click here." It worked for Balance, why not Blizzard hate. I think this would be a pretty good topic and it would also get Blizzard´s attention eventually. I thought the purpose would rather be to instantly know who to ignore...
It could do both, I guess. I just want the Blizzard, MLG, SC2 hate threads to end. They are tiresome after 3 years of the same crap being said over and over.
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I'm someone who is watching sometimes starcraft 2 but I don't play.
Two things make me close the stream of starcraft 2 tournaments:
-When in semifinals are 4 protoss
-When 9 players in the playoffs are asian
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On August 10 2013 01:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 01:05 Passion wrote:On August 10 2013 01:04 Viserion wrote:On August 10 2013 01:01 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 00:57 tshi wrote:On August 10 2013 00:53 Whatson wrote:
Why is there a new thread on improving "eSports" every single month
Can't you guys just all collaborate together and actually do something productive instead it usually just results in blaming blizzard and thats it We should just make a "I hate Blizzard/battle.net and WCS thread". Then we should put it behind a spoiler tag that says "Do you want to dislike SC2 more, click here." It worked for Balance, why not Blizzard hate. I think this would be a pretty good topic and it would also get Blizzard´s attention eventually. I thought the purpose would rather be to instantly know who to ignore... It could do both, I guess. I just want the Blizzard, MLG, SC2 hate threads to end. They are tiresome after 3 years of the same crap being said over and over.
I feel like the biggest enemy to sc2 growth is the community itself sometimes lol.
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Well there have been at least 20 major threads over the past 3-4 years with features, balance, gameplay, competition analysis and discussion.
I mean remember the rhino in the room, remember the "do you want chat channels", remember the unit spread, etc... threads?
These were all major threads discussion some of the issues with SC2, but what did it come out of them? Absolutely nothing, Blizzard doesn't listen.
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It's so natural, that videogames come and videogames go. There's only a handful of games, which have lived on for long, even longer than anyone might have expected. Remember Counterstrike, Broodwar or Dota (and surely a few others). They are legendary games. But Starcraft 2 just isn't one of them, or so it feels like. Much of it was based upon hype and the Broodwar legacy, not because the game itself is the best thing ever. Good, but not great.
And it's not necessary to want to force Starcraft 2 to be one of those legendary games. The community will shrink over the years, but a good amount of people will still be interested in it and more people will remain, than with many other games, just not the legendary games, which have lived for so long. It will not be the mainstream breakthrough, because as it is quite obvious, there is something missing in Starcraft 2. I personally have watched mainly because of a few interesting characters, but I'd have stopped waaay back, if I had been watching just because of the game itself. Hots was just a bandage, which delayed the bleeding.
Just looking at David Kim and the other clowns, how they are massacring this game and the scene with their poorly executed ideas and views ... it makes me sad and glad at the same time, because I've stopped caring by now and moved on. The two and a half people who I am still interested in and are left just don't do it for me anymore. The opposite of love for the game is not hate, but indifference for it. Each and every hate thread is better, than no one giving a fuck about it anymore.
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On August 10 2013 00:25 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 00:19 Foxxan wrote:
I believe the problem is not WCS or any tournament at all,
the problem is sc2
It has so many flaws and right now the game is not in a good shape, everymatchup involving protoss is garbage
for example
Unit composition vs unit composition. The battle can end in an instant and its over.
Zerg cant beat a limit armee of protoss without swarmhosts, thats utterly bad and boring in the long run
Wol was like that for three years but zerg had eventually buffed infestor+broodlord which was also utterly boring and protoss had a really tough time to take that armee head on, so it was reversed there
Blizzard decided to wait, to let someone figure it out even if the unit composition was a discgrace to the name of starcraft and rts in general
THe deathball syndrome, which makes it really hard to
1) Get units outside the deathball to do some small battle/harassment
2) Get many workers (65 is standard, some matchups go higher but in general never over 100)
Get 3base, saturat, now macro up
Thats the standard thing which is terrible terrible terrible
Zerg can stack up over 50+ larva on 3bases with 4hatcheries
Terran can sack the precious Scv (workers) for bigger armee then anyone else because of mule
So many faults, i can name more but cant come up right now
but these are enough
You can name more even though you can't? All "issues" you mention are no real issues in my eyes. Either you describe the existence of a standard strategy, which is a good thing since it gives the spectating experience some structure and allows for mind games. Or you explain some powerful capabilities as if it would be a bad thing that races have powerful abilities which however are balanced out by some vulnerabilities.
i dont quite understand you
I can name more but cant come up right now is what wrote
Not in your eyes its not a problem, u sure u understand rts games?
How can it not be a problem if for example you need the lame swarmhost to fight a big armee of protoss?
Swarm host...The turtle mushroom.
The most effective wayto play him right now (might change still) is to turtle behind mass static defence go heavy on corruptors and few vipers.
Send out a very small force to do some poking or defending some force of opponent (since your swarmhosts are so weak)
When iu mention small it is because u need woekrs and you need your armee (no supply left)
Is this a good RTS game to you?
For me, its garbage!
You wanna expand more than 3bases, guess what u do it for the gas 9/10 times. And not the minerals (because of deathball syndrome and no defenders advantage)
This game is not strategic or actionpacked its turtle packed
In Protoss vs terran it becomes colossous with hightemplars, against vikings and ghosts. Did you emp THAT HIGHTEMPAR? YOU WON THE FIGHT
did you miss the emp? you didnt emp at all? YOU LOSE THE FIGHT
edit: Before u ask me the same question, YES! I CAN! MENTION! MORE
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I think that the problem is that this game is too hard, and thats something that fundamentally built into this game. There is no casual following because this game is just too hard for people who want to chill out. With the casual following comes the huge viewer numbers, and that is the fundamental problem SC2 has and that's why it will never become the largest e-sport.
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always when i read that i think "burn lol and dota to the grounds" ^^ but jokes asides
i dont think wcs did anything wrong, sure less viewers when same time you can watch epic wcs events ...
all you write is wcs is making mistakes, but i rly dont think so
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I can't help but feel that the popularity of BW in korea was a bit of a fluke, and that we're really just seeing sc2 come down to where it ought to be popularity-wise. In Korea people played broodwar for the UMS games and casual maps, but I really doubt that people would have played those games back then had they had the free-to-play options of LoL and DOTA that we have today. It's not that sc2 is bad, it's just that competitive RTS is really only so appealing. That doesn't mean that sc2 is dying or will die, it just means that it probably won't be the big kid on the block. A redditor was right when he or she compared sc2 to tennis.
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CASUAL GAMERS
That's what this game needs more of. Just like so many people on this thread have stated, SC2 is not very casual friendly. With the inclusion of Unranked Play, and XP system, and Skins/Dance/Etc rewards, it has gotten a lot better. But, there is more that can, and should be done.
The problem is that you don't want to change the game for the people who enjoy competitive SC2, and for eSports competition.
So what should Blizzard do?
My Suggestion: Add in a "Casual Mode" option to ladder games.
When enabled, a ladder game in casual mode might change in the following ways (just ideas off the top of my head):
1. The tool-tips and information messages that are currently in the 'training mode' are now in multiplayer. (e.g., your supply count gets highlighted when you get close to being supply blocked; a message appears on screen when you have high energy on your queens/nexus/OC).
WHY: This helps casual players more easily deal with basic macro mechanics. It doesn't drop mules for you, just reminds you that you have high energy. Again, this is already built into the training mode.
2. In team games, Team Unit control is turned on by default. It can still be disabled by the player if he/she wishes.
WHY: Casual players, especially in team games, can get frustrated when they get attacked by multiple players. Combined with low APM, this creates a frustrating experience. Allowing your team-mates to help you out by microing your units for you would help. This is already in the game; it would just need to be turned on by default.
3. In team games, Allow automatic resource sharing. I'm not sure how this would work exactly, but for example, you could have all minerals and gas over 1000 to be automatically available to all team members.
WHY: Now team games can be played as a team, more easily than the resource sharing system currently in place. If you get attacked and lose your workers, at least you can try to get back into the game if your team-mates are floating money. It also allows you to help out your team if one of your team-mates are floating tons of resources without knowing how to spend them. Now you can easily spend the resources for them.
4. New watch-towers are added to the maps. Each team has one watch tower that belongs to them. As long as the watch tower exists, it gives that team full map vision. It can be destroyed in the same manner as destructible rocks.
WHY: I know this would be a big change. However, this would stop early, cheesy strategies that make the game not very fun for casual players. Casual players also have a difficult time scouting. This would make scouting easy. The location and HP of these towers could be adjusted for balance.
Those are just SOME ideas. Here's why I think they are good ideas.
A. It doesn't change the units or abilities of any units. This means you are still fundamentally playing the same game, just with extra help. This also makes it easier for Blizzard to manage.
B. Being able to see the entire map makes the game much much easier and less frustrating.
C. It doesn't affect the current ladder/competitive SC2 at all. It's a new mode. Casual mode can be turned off if you want to play a more challenging game.
Just some ideas! More casual players means more money for Blizzard means more eSports, etc etc.
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i think best idea to help sc2 is slap everyone who complains in your range about balance in the face  rly i think that would help, all the whiners flamers etc hurt esport and sc2 so much ...
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Free 2 play, more player = more viewer = bigger esports presence.
Replace bronze, silver and gold league with a leveling system. Let the noobs get rewarded while they learn the game. Let people enjoy it as a game instead of a none stop competition.
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On August 10 2013 01:38 Like a Boss wrote:
Free 2 play, more player = more viewer = bigger esports presence.
Replace bronze, silver and gold league with a leveling system. Let the noobs get rewarded while they learn the game. Let people enjoy it as a game instead of a none stop competition.
If the game was tons of fun to play, people would play it for sure
No need to do things like these
A casual player builds up his bases for 10minutes, and now banelings role in and he gets demolishes and the game ends
This is how sc2 works
there is no sustaining fighting going on, its just one big ball vs ball, fight ends in 10sec,now game is over!
This is not fun in the long run for a casual gamer and a professional gamer.
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On August 10 2013 01:35 The WingNut wrote:
CASUAL GAMERS
That's what this game needs more of. Just like so many people on this thread have stated, SC2 is not very casual friendly. With the inclusion of Unranked Play, and XP system, and Skins/Dance/Etc rewards, it has gotten a lot better. But, there is more that can, and should be done.
The problem is that you don't want to change the game for the people who enjoy competitive SC2, and for eSports competition.
So what should Blizzard do?
My Suggestion: Add in a "Casual Mode" option to ladder games.
When enabled, a ladder game in casual mode might change in the following ways (just ideas off the top of my head):
1. The tool-tips and information messages that are currently in the 'training mode' are now in multiplayer. (e.g., your supply count gets highlighted when you get close to being supply blocked; a message appears on screen when you have high energy on your queens/nexus/OC).
WHY: This helps casual players more easily deal with basic macro mechanics. It doesn't drop mules for you, just reminds you that you have high energy. Again, this is already built into the training mode.
2. In team games, Team Unit control is turned on by default. It can still be disabled by the player if he/she wishes.
WHY: Casual players, especially in team games, can get frustrated when they get attacked by multiple players. Combined with low APM, this creates a frustrating experience. Allowing your team-mates to help you out by microing your units for you would help. This is already in the game; it would just need to be turned on by default.
3. In team games, Allow automatic resource sharing. I'm not sure how this would work exactly, but for example, you could have all minerals and gas over 1000 to be automatically available to all team members.
WHY: Now team games can be played as a team, more easily than the resource sharing system currently in place. If you get attacked and lose your workers, at least you can try to get back into the game if your team-mates are floating money. It also allows you to help out your team if one of your team-mates are floating tons of resources without knowing how to spend them. Now you can easily spend the resources for them.
4. New watch-towers are added to the maps. Each team has one watch tower that belongs to them. As long as the watch tower exists, it gives that team full map vision. It can be destroyed in the same manner as destructible rocks.
WHY: I know this would be a big change. However, this would stop early, cheesy strategies that make the game not very fun for casual players. Casual players also have a difficult time scouting. This would make scouting easy. The location and HP of these towers could be adjusted for balance.
Those are just SOME ideas. Here's why I think they are good ideas.
A. It doesn't change the units or abilities of any units. This means you are still fundamentally playing the same game, just with extra help. This also makes it easier for Blizzard to manage.
B. Being able to see the entire map makes the game much much easier and less frustrating.
C. It doesn't affect the current ladder/competitive SC2 at all. It's a new mode. Casual mode can be turned off if you want to play a more challenging game.
Just some ideas! More casual players means more money for Blizzard means more eSports, etc etc.
I really think your idea is really smart, like really! You totally have it, making the game easier for casual while having the same game for "hardcore" player.
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Everything can be shit, but it's the casual/social interactions that drive a community... And that's exactly the point where sc2 is lacking... Also change the trial account system, the tutorials suck, the irl friends that got a trial account tried to play some tutorials then a custom still got overwhelmed completely, and most quit after a few customs.
- Maybe implement some sort of cooperative tutorial, where you are in a team with another complete newb, so you can progress together. Which also immediately removes the 'this game is a social waste' feeling.
- Spectate random ladder games, at every time there's at least 1 available. People can turn on/off the option to get their games featured. While spectating there would then be a lobby where people can talk about the games and thus bond. The chat rooms are desolated.
- A Cooperative campaign for LoTV, it would add to the replayability and social features of the game. People could play it diablo-style. Progress with friends, once completed, you just go one difficulty higher!!
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On August 10 2013 01:43 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 01:38 Like a Boss wrote:
Free 2 play, more player = more viewer = bigger esports presence.
Replace bronze, silver and gold league with a leveling system. Let the noobs get rewarded while they learn the game. Let people enjoy it as a game instead of a none stop competition. If the game was tons of fun to play, people would play it for sure No need to do things like these
Actually there are a lot other reasons why people are unwilling to pay for a game. Here in Hong Kong for instance, many student gamers are unwilling to pay for games because it cuts into their other expenses. I tried to convince my friends to play sc2 but when they heard that you have to pay for it(some even confused the payment as a monthly thing) they just back off and play free games with their friends. So I do think F2P helps a ton in getting new players and consequently viewers.
Another thing is I believe the aspect of team games. Yes I've heard things like 'sc2 is designed to be a 1v1 game, team games arent balanced'. Are Dota and LoL's 100 ish heros all balanced? No way! The bigger reason why I believe that team games are important is its much more accessible to the casual players. If you have free time and want to have fun with another friend, you will obviously pick 2v2 because for casual gamers that arent aggressively looking to get better, 2v2 is a way to relax and have fun which is what most F2P gamers wanted in the first place. I think team games are something that new comers can relate to better and they have to be put in the spotlight if one wants more casual gamers to come into watching sc2. Eventually when they are into sc2 long enough to realize the beauty in 1v1s they will switch over. It obviously requires a ton of investment(tournys, more macro oriented team play maps, better team play meta) but I think its a step in he right direction.
So in short, F2P and bigger emphasis on team games
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Try crowdfunding a LAN series in US or Canada? SC2 audience appears to be quite loyal, and a credible group of people with support of the major teams could make it happen. I'd gladly pay for something like that, and I barely even watch SC2 anymore.
TI3 was collaboratively funded by the developer and the audience. Yes, it was technically run by Valve and we got a lot of additional in-game and live content in return, whereas not as many people would actually have straight up donated an equivalent amount. But a third party organizer could offer some incentives as well, and you don't need to be TI-big to start off with, just make the first one a success no matter the size of it and snowball from there.
I feel like Shoutcraft series was on a good path while it was happening, and more people should have followed suit a long time ago, but it is not yet too late to start.
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On August 10 2013 01:38 Like a Boss wrote:
Free 2 play, more player = more viewer = bigger esports presence.
Replace bronze, silver and gold league with a leveling system. Let the noobs get rewarded while they learn the game. Let people enjoy it as a game instead of a none stop competition.
Amen
Bronze to master instead of ELO
is the most retarded shit Ive ever seen
It is (was?) used by HoN and it is just terrible
makes me boil
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On August 10 2013 02:00 uh-oh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 01:43 Foxxan wrote:On August 10 2013 01:38 Like a Boss wrote:
Free 2 play, more player = more viewer = bigger esports presence.
Replace bronze, silver and gold league with a leveling system. Let the noobs get rewarded while they learn the game. Let people enjoy it as a game instead of a none stop competition. If the game was tons of fun to play, people would play it for sure No need to do things like these Actually there are a lot other reasons why people are unwilling to pay for a game. Here in Hong Kong for instance, many student gamers are unwilling to pay for games because it cuts into their other expenses. I tried to convince my friends to play sc2 but when they heard that you have to pay for it(some even confused the payment as a monthly thing) they just back off and play free games with their friends. So I do think F2P helps a ton in getting new players and consequently viewers. Another thing is I believe the aspect of team games. Yes I've heard things like 'sc2 is designed to be a 1v1 game, team games arent balanced'. Are Dota and LoL's 100 ish heros all balanced? No way! The bigger reason why I believe that team games are important is its much more accessible to the casual players. If you have free time and want to have fun with another friend, you will obviously pick 2v2 because for casual gamers that arent aggressively looking to get better, 2v2 is a way to relax and have fun which is what most F2P gamers wanted in the first place. I think team games are something that new comers can relate to better and they have to be put in the spotlight if one wants more casual gamers to come into watching sc2. Eventually when they are into sc2 long enough to realize the beauty in 1v1s they will switch over. It obviously requires a ton of investment(tournys, more macro oriented team play maps, better team play meta) but I think its a step in he right direction. So in short, F2P and bigger emphasis on team games
I thought Blizzard's model was different in the Asian region? Or am I mixing up with WoW?
edit: felt like an ass just responding to this well-written informative piece with one sentence
It obviously all boils down to: more casual-friendly, more social interaction. The thing is with going F2P Blizzard needs to have a clearcut open way to profit, which should with an almost 100% guarantee outperform the current model in terms of revenue. Otherwise there's no way they'll even consider it.
You could of course sell unit skins etc, but there's no guarantee people will buy those. It's not like in LoL where you watch one champion the whole time. You don't even have time to notice them half of the time. So where woudl Blizz get their revenue from?
From a community perspective it's an obvious conclusion to draw, f2p would revitalize the scene/bring in more players, that's for sure. But Blizzard isn't willing to sacrifice profits for popularity, since making profits is their primary goal.
Earlier in this thread I made some suggestions to make the game more attractive to casuals/people playing the trial edition (which scares off more people than it draws in if you ask me)
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Anyone remember Starjeweled? Sc2 master, Aiur Chef? Blizzard promoted those custom games and gave rewards and achievements for them. What if they worked with the map makers to do the same for the best custom games? With spawning, who wouldn't want to bring their friend in to get the portrait for killing 10,000 units in marine arena? Or the soccerball decal for winning 25 games of star strikers or an infested day[9] portrait for playing every unit in a monobattle? If there is some cool reward every once in a while it will keep casual players interested and attract new ones.
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On August 10 2013 02:07 MstrJinbo wrote:
Anyone remember Starjeweled? Sc2 master, Aiur Chef? Blizzard promoted those custom games and gave rewards and achievements for them. What if they worked with the map makers to do the same for the best custom games? With spawning, who wouldn't want to bring their friend in to get the portrait for killing 10,000 units in marine arena? Or the soccerball decal for winning 25 games of star strikers or an infested day[9] portrait for playing every unit in a monobattle? If there is some cool reward every once in a while it will keep casual players interested and attract new ones.
That's a great idea man, I like it a lot. A lot of micro-rewards, not focused on pure skill on the ladder. The only thing I'm a bit sceptic about is it's ability to bring in new players.
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On August 10 2013 01:32 Daimai wrote:
I think that the problem is that this game is too hard, and thats something that fundamentally built into this game. There is no casual following because this game is just too hard for people who want to chill out. With the casual following comes the huge viewer numbers, and that is the fundamental problem SC2 has and that's why it will never become the largest e-sport.
some of part is right, but it can be applied to 1vs1 game only i think, BW is much harder to play than SC2
but In korea there were bunch of numbers on casual at all the times when BW was on the top.
(i know that gaming culture is different from korea and Other countries)
Howerver, most of fans, viewers of BW they have been played and loved teamplay which is 2vs2 3vs3 on hunters or Infinity Maps even they didn't play 1vs1 much as hardcore fan of, they just loved and enjoyed to watch 1vs1 tournament.
and they were the main of Fan base as casual
Basically, the fan base will increase when people enjoy to play the game itself
so it doesn't matter how game is hard to play, it does matter how many ppl could enjoy and love the game themself
but SC2 has NO attractive and NO element of fun to teamplay for casual
there is so less ppl who play teamplay with buddies on 2vs2,3vs3 and custom maps also temaplay mode in SC2
is not fun to play and watch.
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On August 10 2013 01:43 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 01:38 Like a Boss wrote:
Free 2 play, more player = more viewer = bigger esports presence.
Replace bronze, silver and gold league with a leveling system. Let the noobs get rewarded while they learn the game. Let people enjoy it as a game instead of a none stop competition. If the game was tons of fun to play, people would play it for sure No need to do things like these A casual player builds up his bases for 10minutes, and now banelings role in and he gets demolishes and the game ends This is how sc2 works there is no sustaining fighting going on, its just one big ball vs ball, fight ends in 10sec,now game is over! This is not fun in the long run for a casual gamer and a professional gamer.
Or a casual player builds his base, defends attacks, pushes back and wins the game. See how appealing I can make it when I cherry pick a scenario that justifies my position?
I'll ignore the oversimplification. Maybe the game isn't fun for you. That's fine, go play something else.
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On August 10 2013 02:13 Panozen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 02:07 MstrJinbo wrote:
Anyone remember Starjeweled? Sc2 master, Aiur Chef? Blizzard promoted those custom games and gave rewards and achievements for them. What if they worked with the map makers to do the same for the best custom games? With spawning, who wouldn't want to bring their friend in to get the portrait for killing 10,000 units in marine arena? Or the soccerball decal for winning 25 games of star strikers or an infested day[9] portrait for playing every unit in a monobattle? If there is some cool reward every once in a while it will keep casual players interested and attract new ones. That's a great idea man, I like it a lot. A lot of micro-rewards, not focused on pure skill on the ladder. The only thing I'm a bit sceptic about is it's ability to bring in new players.
Spawning gives full access to the arcade, if I need people for my star striker monobattle team it's easy to ask my friend to help Join in. There is also a attainable reward for them. I think It's a lot easier then team ladder games.
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On August 10 2013 02:20 brobrah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 01:43 Foxxan wrote:On August 10 2013 01:38 Like a Boss wrote:
Free 2 play, more player = more viewer = bigger esports presence.
Replace bronze, silver and gold league with a leveling system. Let the noobs get rewarded while they learn the game. Let people enjoy it as a game instead of a none stop competition. If the game was tons of fun to play, people would play it for sure No need to do things like these A casual player builds up his bases for 10minutes, and now banelings role in and he gets demolishes and the game ends This is how sc2 works there is no sustaining fighting going on, its just one big ball vs ball, fight ends in 10sec,now game is over! This is not fun in the long run for a casual gamer and a professional gamer. Maybe the game isn't fun for you. That's fine, go play something else.
Great idea, that attitude will make the game grow.
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HD Brood War remake is where its at.
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On August 10 2013 02:20 brobrah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 01:43 Foxxan wrote:On August 10 2013 01:38 Like a Boss wrote:
Free 2 play, more player = more viewer = bigger esports presence.
Replace bronze, silver and gold league with a leveling system. Let the noobs get rewarded while they learn the game. Let people enjoy it as a game instead of a none stop competition. If the game was tons of fun to play, people would play it for sure No need to do things like these A casual player builds up his bases for 10minutes, and now banelings role in and he gets demolishes and the game ends This is how sc2 works there is no sustaining fighting going on, its just one big ball vs ball, fight ends in 10sec,now game is over! This is not fun in the long run for a casual gamer and a professional gamer. Or a casual player builds his base, defends attacks, pushes back and wins the game. See how appealing I can make it when I cherry pick a scenario that justifies my position? I'll ignore the oversimplification. Maybe the game isn't fun for you. That's fine, go play something else.
you dont get it at all
1. Its not about winning or losing, its about having fun
What is fun?
Fun is tactic, use of units, how you use them, You can make expansions, you can be active you can do small fights here and there, big fights do not end in seconds, big fights is more sustained
In sc2, this is hard. The degree is atleast very small compared to broodwar for example
The game is bad in this aspect
You can move in with all your armee and retreat after some action
Building up for 10minutes, without any engagement whatsoever and then the games ends after a 5second fight which u have small power over
In broodwar, u had much more power in big fights, even if u lost the fight u still was active in it, you still did something
Beeing active, using your brain. Micro finesse, decision making. Everything like this is what is fun
Autopilot, no power is boring
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On August 10 2013 02:22 Panozen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 02:20 brobrah wrote:On August 10 2013 01:43 Foxxan wrote:On August 10 2013 01:38 Like a Boss wrote:
Free 2 play, more player = more viewer = bigger esports presence.
Replace bronze, silver and gold league with a leveling system. Let the noobs get rewarded while they learn the game. Let people enjoy it as a game instead of a none stop competition. If the game was tons of fun to play, people would play it for sure No need to do things like these A casual player builds up his bases for 10minutes, and now banelings role in and he gets demolishes and the game ends This is how sc2 works there is no sustaining fighting going on, its just one big ball vs ball, fight ends in 10sec,now game is over! This is not fun in the long run for a casual gamer and a professional gamer. Maybe the game isn't fun for you. That's fine, go play something else. Great idea, that attitude will make the game grow.
Since when was it my job to grow the game?
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SC2 died when Blizzard got too involved.
Only way to resurrect the game is to remove the problem.
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On August 10 2013 02:23 NukeD wrote:
HD Brood War remake is where its at.
i think people complain more about how the interface sucks and you feel lonley . more then how the gameplay is .
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It's funny, nearly all of these posts explaining the stuff that is wrong with the game, I don't find to be problems when playing or watching really. Yes there are a few times where it's a big deathball vs a big deathball but even then cool micro tricks can turn the battle. I think the incredible micro tricks and control was more obvious in BW, but it still exists in SC2, you just have to pay attention.
I love playing the game how it is, oddly enough. I love watching the game how it is, oddly enough.
I suppose I can see that people don't like the competitive and intense.. ness of the game, but I feel like that is some criteria to make a great eSport..
Oh well.. We'll see what happens in a couple years.
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On August 10 2013 02:30 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 02:20 brobrah wrote:On August 10 2013 01:43 Foxxan wrote:On August 10 2013 01:38 Like a Boss wrote:
Free 2 play, more player = more viewer = bigger esports presence.
Replace bronze, silver and gold league with a leveling system. Let the noobs get rewarded while they learn the game. Let people enjoy it as a game instead of a none stop competition. If the game was tons of fun to play, people would play it for sure No need to do things like these A casual player builds up his bases for 10minutes, and now banelings role in and he gets demolishes and the game ends This is how sc2 works there is no sustaining fighting going on, its just one big ball vs ball, fight ends in 10sec,now game is over! This is not fun in the long run for a casual gamer and a professional gamer. Or a casual player builds his base, defends attacks, pushes back and wins the game. See how appealing I can make it when I cherry pick a scenario that justifies my position? I'll ignore the oversimplification. Maybe the game isn't fun for you. That's fine, go play something else. you dont get it at all 1. Its not about winning or losing, its about having fun What is fun? Fun is tactic, use of units, how you use them, You can make expansions, you can be active you can do small fights here and there, big fights do not end in seconds, big fights is more sustained In sc2, this is hard. The degree is atleast very small compared to broodwar for example The game is bad in this aspect You can move in with all your armee and retreat after some action Building up for 10minutes, without any engagement whatsoever and then the games ends after a 5second fight which u have small power over In broodwar, u had much more power in big fights, even if u lost the fight u still was active in it, you still did something Beeing active, using your brain. Micro finesse, decision making. Everything like this is what is fun Autopilot, no power is boring
These exact complaints have been around for years, nothing's changed. What makes you think it will now? SC2 in its current form has an audience so obviously some people don't have a problem with the game. You do, so find a game you don't have a problem with.
It's fine to have minor complaints, like this gun is too accurate or this unit's cost is too low. But you have a fundamental problem with how the game is played. It's like not liking offsides in hockey or the shot clock in basketball. Your complaints cannot be addressed without alienating at least some of the current players/fans of the game. In essence, you want Blizzard to make your game and screw everyone else. You know what's really fun, they're only deluding themselves.
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On August 09 2013 23:54 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 21:41 aka_star wrote:
We're 3 years into it, its kinda safe to say the SC2 boom has passed and we should be expecting a decline. The numbers never could touch the free to play games, to be honest speed running Zelda 64 today gets more viewers than some SC2 tournaments. Sad but true and it raises more money through donations whereas SC2 fans hate dropping $5 for a ticket. I'm speculating SC2 will have to go back to being a niche game like the old BW days but to be honest I know nothing. BW was a niche game outside of Korea. In Korea, BW was one of the country's biggest sports. The problem today is that SC2 is a niche game in Korea.
It was a niche in Korea as well. TV Ratings and the like. RTS games have always been that way. Question for you bub and we're going to go back to one of the oldest examples. Do you think Wrestling is a niche market? Do you know how many people tune into stuff like Raw/Smackdown/TNA Impact etc. on weekly basis? Case in point, it's not for everybody yet they do good business. If there's one thing about niche markets it is that they're pretty consistent throughout. It helps knowing your base and that's what you got to utilize.
On August 10 2013 02:32 xsnac wrote:i think people complain more about how the interface sucks and you feel lonley . more then how the gameplay is .
I hear complaints about both and it sucks that people are only finding out about such communities like this until much later and that's why you got to take initiative and use a search engine or something! I've been fortunate though because back in the Vanilla SC days I knew a lot of the boys from places like the Ladder channel and then it just want on from there. You got to go places. For me SC/BW was never a ghost town and it's a shame we didn't get such features in B.Net 2.0 until much later. Anyway, I see bitching about both a lot. Like babysitting your goons nonstop because they're one of the clumsiest units. It's hard to appreciate something when you have no idea what the A.I. was like lol. The interface really wasn't that bad.
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I think the analogy on reddit about sc being like tennis in the world of sports is pretty on point. The casual spectator that you want to watch a game doesn't care about balance. All the whining about sc2 not being as good as bw and being death bally, static, containing broken mechanics, doesn't matter all that much imo. It just doesn't. Static game? Any main stream sport is horridly static. People don't watch games (video or physical) for dynamics. The wide majority of people who watch sports (casually) don't know all the intricate rules. What I think really matters is seeing a game that can be played with friends. It's more fun and enjoyable to take a group of 8 friends and split into 4's and play basketball even if everyone is terrible than it is to square off into 1v1 tournament brackets. Not THE reason, but A reason.
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region lock of WCS is definately required! It's not only hurting NA and EU players, but also pretty much unbalances the korean scene more and more where some teams and players can't afford playing in the easier NA and EU tournaments while others can. with a region lock, there would be some incentive to create focused esport centers like seoul is in korea around WCS. As it is now, there is little to nothing hope, that a foreigner can win any WCS tournament. - well in EU the summer of protoss sky rocketed the hopes a bit, but in the end duckdeok might grab it all  .
The current WCS system is just really hurting the whole tournament scene. It was very poorly planned and Blizzard definately needs to think about their plans for 2014.
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log in and play some games of starcraft.
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a western proleague with matches announced and a prize pool that matters, foreigners will train harder, be prepared more often and really get a lot of stage experience.
plus i love team leagues
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Stop with any balance talk for a while and ask how to make more innovative units and then balance it later.
The metagame is so stale that it's not even funny
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I actually like that there's no region lock in WCS. I have no interest in watching sloppy foreginers in boring games. If they can't compete with Koreans, they don't deserve a place in region nor global finals.
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the problem is not battle.net or gamedesign, or some issues with tournaments or marketing. The problem is that SC2 is not a relaxed, fun and simple game and especially not a team game, which is necessary for a mainstream game.
it's the problem of the genre 1v1 RTS.
of course there are little things that could be improved but it won't change much.
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People don't watch so much SC2 anymore because the game is not that fun and the improvements over the years have been minimal with much of the criticism and feedback ignored.
The problem is with the game itself not tournaments or presentation. The only exciting part was when HOTS launched, and it lasted just as long as people realized it's much the same thing as WOL (pre Queen buff). Fix the game and the viewers will return.
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On August 10 2013 01:43 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 01:38 Like a Boss wrote:
Free 2 play, more player = more viewer = bigger esports presence.
Replace bronze, silver and gold league with a leveling system. Let the noobs get rewarded while they learn the game. Let people enjoy it as a game instead of a none stop competition. If the game was tons of fun to play, people would play it for sure No need to do things like these A casual player builds up his bases for 10minutes, and now banelings role in and he gets demolishes and the game ends This is how sc2 works there is no sustaining fighting going on, its just one big ball vs ball, fight ends in 10sec,now game is over! This is not fun in the long run for a casual gamer and a professional gamer.
If the game rewarded micro more than macro, I think more people would enjoy playing the game. When I first came into SC, I thought about all the micro I could try out, not spamming keys just to have an army to work with. Also, it's supposed to be a strategy game. But it's hard to grow strategies when the primary predictor of winner and loser is macro.
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Enjoy the game and stop crying. Step 1.
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The biggest thing we can do to grow SC2 is to lock regions in WCS, so you can't compete unless your a citizen of said region.
Why? Because Korea has an existing system to develop talent and many other places don't. If you don't lock regions, then they export their talent elsewhere and make it that much harder for said scene to create a system to develop talent, since no one can win anything to get recognition and money, they all get crushed by Koreans.
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The game is boring to watch. Until you completely revamp the protoss race and make battles more exciting to watch then the decline is inevitable. I can only watch so much of collosus wars
On August 10 2013 03:04 phiinix wrote:
I think the analogy on reddit about sc being like tennis in the world of sports is pretty on point. The casual spectator that you want to watch a game doesn't care about balance. All the whining about sc2 not being as good as bw and being death bally, static, containing broken mechanics, doesn't matter all that much imo. It just doesn't. Static game? Any main stream sport is horridly static. People don't watch games (video or physical) for dynamics. The wide majority of people who watch sports (casually) don't know all the intricate rules. What I think really matters is seeing a game that can be played with friends. It's more fun and enjoyable to take a group of 8 friends and split into 4's and play basketball even if everyone is terrible than it is to square off into 1v1 tournament brackets. Not THE reason, but A reason.
You are COMPLETELY wrong about everything
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I can't say to a friend, hey try this game out. If we were to play I would completely crush him every game.
It's a really lonely game experience, which is probably the biggest problem.
If team games were better, arcade games better, then maybe.
I don't think this has anything to do with WCS, or even viewing experience, I'm a firm believer that SC2 has the best viewing experience out of any esport, the problem is no one is playing the game "right now"
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If you want to be where the "party" is, you're just gonna have to keep jumping on every new game that comes out.
If you stick with one game, the number of fans cheering next to you is going to diminish.
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On August 10 2013 03:32 ProxyKnoxy wrote:The game is boring to watch. Until you completely revamp the protoss race and make battles more exciting to watch then the decline is inevitable. I can only watch so much of collosus wars Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 03:04 phiinix wrote:
I think the analogy on reddit about sc being like tennis in the world of sports is pretty on point. The casual spectator that you want to watch a game doesn't care about balance. All the whining about sc2 not being as good as bw and being death bally, static, containing broken mechanics, doesn't matter all that much imo. It just doesn't. Static game? Any main stream sport is horridly static. People don't watch games (video or physical) for dynamics. The wide majority of people who watch sports (casually) don't know all the intricate rules. What I think really matters is seeing a game that can be played with friends. It's more fun and enjoyable to take a group of 8 friends and split into 4's and play basketball even if everyone is terrible than it is to square off into 1v1 tournament brackets. Not THE reason, but A reason. You are COMPLETELY wrong about everything
How is he completely wrong?
Casual spectators really don't care a lot about balance, it's true. When I took my friends out to a bar craft, they're not considering all the stuff that's going on. But they still did manage to enjoy the game, it's visually pleasing.
I think S2 IS growing. Considering that streams BARELY had 100 viewers in beta, it actually flabbergasts me to see multiple personal streams with 1k on Monday evenings!
If sc2 was to grow, wouldn't it make sense for us to contribue our small part? Play a few games, tune into the streams. Bring your friends to a barcraft, show up to a LAN. As long as there are people who are tuned into the game, it'll always be growing.
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sc2 can't grow unless it becomes a newb friendly game like LoL. macro is just too hard to manage for most people, training requires too much time also, i remember myself having to practice at least 20 games a day to maintain my high master. for most people the game is really hard to get into. was BW even big here? maybe bigger than sc2. but look at gaming back then, we were all children in 1997 with no other online games than cs 1.5, warcraft, and starcraft. what did you expect
what can help tho : 1-2million dollar blizzard tournament juste like vavle or riot did with alot of hype and lore/rivalries between teams/players/countries. why is rivalries between countries so moving? because its in our nature, we are predisposed to do what is called tribalism empathy (we feel good with our "own" kind") just like most immigrants are so exhalted when they go back to their countries to see family and stuff, i can speak for it.
emprical proof to be found in yesterday's liquid victory againstLGD china, liquid being the last american team in the tournament, the growd was loud and moved because liquid stood as their representative but also because they faced a very strong chinese team (let's agree chinese dota is so solid just like korean starcraft - it was an upset, they were the underdogs vs LGD)
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Starcraft 2 is no longer interesting to play nor watch for me. I think the biggest problems with SC2 are intrinsic to the game itself. The only thing that could possibly fix it in my eyes if is Blizzard swallowed their pride and took a loss to develop a true successor to Brood War alongside the community. This obviously, will never happen. I could see custom maps breaking through with something, but they botched that as well.
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SC2 doesn't need to grow, do we really want SC2 to be the only global esport?
I for one, don't.
I don't even want it to be the only RTS esport.
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Have Riot buyout Blizzard and we g00d
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Sc2 just doesnt have the potential to be entertaining forever. It gets repetitive real quick and "standard" builds and ways to play the game are figured out very quickly. From that point onward, standard macro games play out pretty much the same.
If you compare it with dota, there is NO perfect way to play the game. What worked perfectly last game might not work aswell in the next game due to how the enemy changes their starting lanes and overall strategy (or lineup alltogether).
There are just so many factors that have an effect on the outcome of a game (pickphase, starting lanes, ability to adapt and rotate the heroes around, item build, skill build, reaction, spidersenses, teamwork, knowledge of when to push/gank or farm, just to name a few), that you almost always have a different game at your hand.
Sure, there is a metagame when it comes to popular hero picks, but even within that meta there are just so many factors that can change the outcome of a game that it is not even comparable to a typical meta in sc2. (broodlord infestor towards the end of WoL).
I do think that sc2 still has a few years in it, but eventually i think it will die.
Dota and lol should only become more popular as time goes by.
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Not sure if it had been mention already but I would love if Blizzard made it possible to be able to watch tournaments with the client like how you can in Dota 2. I never really took interest in Dota 2, was just watching through stream when someone mentioned to me that I can watch it through the client and I can pick players prospective and what ever broadcasters I want.
I know a lot of people loved it when OSL had Innovation first person view.
Sc2 client , battle net w/e is just so primitive compared to other games' clients.
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On August 09 2013 23:31 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 23:23 Esoterikk wrote:
It's up to Blizzard to fix the game on a fundamental level, unfortunately Blizzard is the least likely to do anything because sc2 isn't their main source of income. They could "fix" anything. Realtime strategy still is not as attractive as a whole as other genres. One should rather look at the success of SC2: The first global esports RTS.
The problem is that Blizzard is limiting the variety of the gameplay by artificially keeping mech viability low. David Kim has basically admitted to that. More variety in styles of play would be better, but they fail at grasping basic "cause and effect problems" like "tight unit clumps = maximized clump dps = extremely short reaction time for the defender = bad for not-so-good players and unit balance must be super precise". Their argument is "but the players want the deathball" [Dustin Browder from 2012 in China] ... which is terrible, because sometimes you have to say NO to a child.
They are also keeping a tight grip on the whole scene when it comes to competitions. This isnt really a good thing because it restricts freedom for tournaments. Having to "ask for permission" each time just adds an unnecessary step ...
I also believe that the whole concept of the game and its focus on producing and using massive armies is bad, because that shifts the focus away from the STRATEGY part and more towards ACTION and RESOURCE MANAGEMENT. Those arent things I would want to see as the most important part in an RTS and I feel that this focus from Blizzard is actually keeping the several units useless because lots of cheap units are actually more viable, easier to produce and ultimately more effective due to the ability to tightly stack them. The Carrier for instance could be "useable" if opponents didnt have the ability to pack 20-30 AA units in a tight clump and focus the expensive unit down in a second or two.
In short:
Blizzard is responsible for quite a lot of problems which hold the game back and they are too arrogant to acknowledge and change.
On August 10 2013 03:49 renaissanceMAN wrote:
SC2 doesn't need to grow, do we really want SC2 to be the only global esport?
I for one, don't.
I don't even want it to be the only RTS esport.
No one wants that, but the question is: Can SC2 be better? For my part the answer is a clear YES, but the necessary changes seem unlikely to happen with the current dev team and managing directors.
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the casual factor is what makes games a success. And SC2 is just way too hard and demanding to have this casual factor. Funmaps, teamgames are not promoted enough within the game. the interface makes it way too focused on 1on1 ladder. I think the old BW or WC3 interface would've done a much better job. It was simple, had no big options, but it worked out well and everyone was doing what he wanted.
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I think the community has done as much as it could really, the game itself is what would have to change. In the end the game has to capture the attention of people, not the community.
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SC2 took too long to get things fixed. For almost a full year you had nothing but Infestor deathballs/Colossus Deathballs/MMM and Blizzard refused to fix the problem. HotS isn't much better; you still have the same old dynamics, just minor changes here and there. They failed to make a game that is both interesting to watch and to play, i.e. they sucked it up. Not surprising at all.
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As a long time SC2 player who recently began playing DotA2, I can't believe how awful the SC2 client is in comparison. As someone who is mainly a spectator, I'm not gonna sit around anymore hoping that it will get better. As much as I love the game, other scenes are just offering a better experience as a spectator.
Also, am I wrong for thinking that Blizzard has let the KeSPA Brood War past dictate their decisions as far as LAN and tournament licensing?
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On August 10 2013 03:49 gh0un wrote:
Sc2 just doesnt have the potential to be entertaining forever. It gets repetitive real quick and "standard" builds and ways to play the game are figured out very quickly. From that point onward, standard macro games play out pretty much the same.
If you compare it with dota, there is NO perfect way to play the game. What worked perfectly last game might not work aswell in the next game due to how the enemy changes their starting lanes and overall strategy (or lineup alltogether).
There are just so many factors that have an effect on the outcome of a game (pickphase, starting lanes, ability to adapt and rotate the heroes around, item build, skill build, reaction, spidersenses, teamwork, knowledge of when to push/gank or farm, just to name a few), that you almost always have a different game at your hand.
Sure, there is a metagame when it comes to popular hero picks, but even within that meta there are just so many factors that can change the outcome of a game that it is not even comparable to a typical meta in sc2. (broodlord infestor towards the end of WoL).
I do think that sc2 still has a few years in it, but eventually i think it will die.
Dota and lol should only become more popular as time goes by.
You know its funny because your reply with regards to SC2 about being repetitive because of standard builds and ways to play the game are figured out very quickly could be used to describe BW as well. I have been saying this for the longest time: I really hate replays. I know it's a great tool to have, but when Blizzard first introduced it a patch for BW the first thing I said was, "Shit, now everyone's strategies are going to be streamlined." As it stands there are plenty of tournaments and VODs we can watch to figure shit out and get intel on players but Replays really are the bane of creative play and were always that way. Not to say BW gameplay is stagnant oh no sir. We've always had new maps being implemented in with the formation of the Professional Scene. Maps like Lost Temple, Luna, etc. all had their place in time. In some periods used way too fucking much. If there is one thing I'd do as a developer designing a RTS game I wouldn't have a replay feature. Not only would it help with the games evolution but perhaps you wouldn't see as many smurfs. There would still be a lot of them, but you know this way players can keep their shit more hush, hush. Sometimes less is more.
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On August 10 2013 04:04 superstartran wrote:
SC2 took too long to get things fixed. For almost a full year you had nothing but Infestor deathballs/Colossus Deathballs/MMM and Blizzard refused to fix the problem. HotS isn't much better; you still have the same old dynamics, just minor changes here and there. They failed to make a game that is both interesting to watch and to play, i.e. they sucked it up. Not surprising at all.
Yeah, honestly watching SC2 is just painful for me now. After watching it since Beta, the same 15-20 minute games that play out exactly the same every single time are just so boring. Protoss turtles till death ball - wins, Zerg roach rushes, wins, Zerg stops Protoss all game - Loses, Terran kills things with marines. You can tout creativity as much as you want but in the end 90% of the games I watch are games i've seen countless times before.
Not to mention that the game is fizzling so hard that it's borderline depressing to even pay attention to now. Like it kills me the amount of viewers that people like Day 9 get now as opposed to what they once had. I love Day 9, but man is it depressing seeing numbers for these guys dwindling. Last night on twitch there were 4k viewers for SC2, 3.5k were Artosis and the last 500 were spread out across like 100 other streams.
I guess this isn't really a how to fix things post, but if you still like watching SC2, then watch it. Because honestly I think that's the only way this community can keep it alive right now. Personally I'll always be drawn to the biggest and baddest -- LoL finals at the Staples Center, TI3 with the biggest prize pool in history? Why in the world would I ever choose to watch a 20k viewer stream of a WCS FINALS when any random tournament game for League or Dota will fetch 2, 3 even 4 times the viewer numbers without breaking a sweat.
The community keeps the game going, and right now the community behind SC2 is dwindling while others thrive. Watch your game, because it goes a long way.
/rant
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On August 10 2013 04:21 Noro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:04 superstartran wrote:
SC2 took too long to get things fixed. For almost a full year you had nothing but Infestor deathballs/Colossus Deathballs/MMM and Blizzard refused to fix the problem. HotS isn't much better; you still have the same old dynamics, just minor changes here and there. They failed to make a game that is both interesting to watch and to play, i.e. they sucked it up. Not surprising at all. Yeah, honestly watching SC2 is just painful for me now. After watching it since Beta, the same 15-20 minute games that play out exactly the same every single time are just so boring. Protoss turtles till death ball - wins, Zerg roach rushes, wins, Zerg stops Protoss all game - Loses, Terran kills things with marines. You can tout creativity as much as you want but in the end 90% of the games I watch are games i've seen countless times before. Not to mention that the game is fizzling so hard that it's borderline depressing to even pay attention to now. Like it kills me the amount of viewers that people like Day 9 get now as opposed to what they once had. I love Day 9, but man is it depressing seeing numbers for these guys dwindling. Last night on twitch there were 4k viewers for SC2, 3.5k were Artosis and the last 500 were spread out across like 100 other streams. I guess this isn't really a how to fix things post, but if you still like watching SC2, then watch it. Because honestly I think that's the only way this community can keep it alive right now. Personally I'll always be drawn to the biggest and baddest -- LoL finals at the Staples Center, TI3 with the biggest prize pool in history? Why in the world would I ever choose to watch a 20k viewer stream of a WCS FINALS when any random tournament game for League or Dota will fetch 2, 3 even 4 times the viewer numbers without breaking a sweat. The community keeps the game going, and right now the community behind SC2 is dwindling while others thrive. Watch your game, because it goes a long way. /rant
Why does the number of people watching an event effect you watching what you want?
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The game needs to be less boring to watch/play
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On August 10 2013 04:23 renaissanceMAN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:21 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:04 superstartran wrote:
SC2 took too long to get things fixed. For almost a full year you had nothing but Infestor deathballs/Colossus Deathballs/MMM and Blizzard refused to fix the problem. HotS isn't much better; you still have the same old dynamics, just minor changes here and there. They failed to make a game that is both interesting to watch and to play, i.e. they sucked it up. Not surprising at all. Yeah, honestly watching SC2 is just painful for me now. After watching it since Beta, the same 15-20 minute games that play out exactly the same every single time are just so boring. Protoss turtles till death ball - wins, Zerg roach rushes, wins, Zerg stops Protoss all game - Loses, Terran kills things with marines. You can tout creativity as much as you want but in the end 90% of the games I watch are games i've seen countless times before. Not to mention that the game is fizzling so hard that it's borderline depressing to even pay attention to now. Like it kills me the amount of viewers that people like Day 9 get now as opposed to what they once had. I love Day 9, but man is it depressing seeing numbers for these guys dwindling. Last night on twitch there were 4k viewers for SC2, 3.5k were Artosis and the last 500 were spread out across like 100 other streams. I guess this isn't really a how to fix things post, but if you still like watching SC2, then watch it. Because honestly I think that's the only way this community can keep it alive right now. Personally I'll always be drawn to the biggest and baddest -- LoL finals at the Staples Center, TI3 with the biggest prize pool in history? Why in the world would I ever choose to watch a 20k viewer stream of a WCS FINALS when any random tournament game for League or Dota will fetch 2, 3 even 4 times the viewer numbers without breaking a sweat. The community keeps the game going, and right now the community behind SC2 is dwindling while others thrive. Watch your game, because it goes a long way. /rant Why does the number of people watching an event effect you watching what you want?
You don't think viewership adds to the experience? The LoL season 2 finals were held in this massive freaking stadium, every play that happened was followed by the screams of thousands and thousands of people while the stream numbers soared. You know you're sharing that experience with thousands and hundreds of thousands of people. And that makes it exciting. As opposed to a Starcraft game where there's one or two shouts from a crowd or no crowd at all, and there's barely 5k viewers. You tell me what's more exciting when those 5k viewers watch some korean they've never heard of cheese some NA kid to death.
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Need to look to the every-fan and get some high quality content out there. Unfortunately a lot of the problem is money, which the every-fan doesn't have.
For the record, willing to work pro-bono on video and graphics for any tournament. All it takes is a community call and people with some skill will work for free until things pick up, or for portfolio/general experience building reasons.
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On August 10 2013 04:23 renaissanceMAN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:21 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:04 superstartran wrote:
SC2 took too long to get things fixed. For almost a full year you had nothing but Infestor deathballs/Colossus Deathballs/MMM and Blizzard refused to fix the problem. HotS isn't much better; you still have the same old dynamics, just minor changes here and there. They failed to make a game that is both interesting to watch and to play, i.e. they sucked it up. Not surprising at all. Yeah, honestly watching SC2 is just painful for me now. After watching it since Beta, the same 15-20 minute games that play out exactly the same every single time are just so boring. Protoss turtles till death ball - wins, Zerg roach rushes, wins, Zerg stops Protoss all game - Loses, Terran kills things with marines. You can tout creativity as much as you want but in the end 90% of the games I watch are games i've seen countless times before. Not to mention that the game is fizzling so hard that it's borderline depressing to even pay attention to now. Like it kills me the amount of viewers that people like Day 9 get now as opposed to what they once had. I love Day 9, but man is it depressing seeing numbers for these guys dwindling. Last night on twitch there were 4k viewers for SC2, 3.5k were Artosis and the last 500 were spread out across like 100 other streams. I guess this isn't really a how to fix things post, but if you still like watching SC2, then watch it. Because honestly I think that's the only way this community can keep it alive right now. Personally I'll always be drawn to the biggest and baddest -- LoL finals at the Staples Center, TI3 with the biggest prize pool in history? Why in the world would I ever choose to watch a 20k viewer stream of a WCS FINALS when any random tournament game for League or Dota will fetch 2, 3 even 4 times the viewer numbers without breaking a sweat. The community keeps the game going, and right now the community behind SC2 is dwindling while others thrive. Watch your game, because it goes a long way. /rant Why does the number of people watching an event effect you watching what you want?
The age old question. Pretty pathetic, don't you think? "Oh I cannot enjoy this anymore because it isn't trendy anymore. Just look at those numbers wah wah wah" I really wish some of you could hear yourselves or reflect back on what you post sometime because it is borderline cuckoo cuckoo.
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On August 10 2013 04:30 Noro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:23 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 10 2013 04:21 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:04 superstartran wrote:
SC2 took too long to get things fixed. For almost a full year you had nothing but Infestor deathballs/Colossus Deathballs/MMM and Blizzard refused to fix the problem. HotS isn't much better; you still have the same old dynamics, just minor changes here and there. They failed to make a game that is both interesting to watch and to play, i.e. they sucked it up. Not surprising at all. Yeah, honestly watching SC2 is just painful for me now. After watching it since Beta, the same 15-20 minute games that play out exactly the same every single time are just so boring. Protoss turtles till death ball - wins, Zerg roach rushes, wins, Zerg stops Protoss all game - Loses, Terran kills things with marines. You can tout creativity as much as you want but in the end 90% of the games I watch are games i've seen countless times before. Not to mention that the game is fizzling so hard that it's borderline depressing to even pay attention to now. Like it kills me the amount of viewers that people like Day 9 get now as opposed to what they once had. I love Day 9, but man is it depressing seeing numbers for these guys dwindling. Last night on twitch there were 4k viewers for SC2, 3.5k were Artosis and the last 500 were spread out across like 100 other streams. I guess this isn't really a how to fix things post, but if you still like watching SC2, then watch it. Because honestly I think that's the only way this community can keep it alive right now. Personally I'll always be drawn to the biggest and baddest -- LoL finals at the Staples Center, TI3 with the biggest prize pool in history? Why in the world would I ever choose to watch a 20k viewer stream of a WCS FINALS when any random tournament game for League or Dota will fetch 2, 3 even 4 times the viewer numbers without breaking a sweat. The community keeps the game going, and right now the community behind SC2 is dwindling while others thrive. Watch your game, because it goes a long way. /rant Why does the number of people watching an event effect you watching what you want? You don't think viewership adds to the experience? The LoL season 2 finals were held in this massive freaking stadium, every play that happened was followed by the screams of thousands and thousands of people while the stream numbers soared. You know you're sharing that experience with thousands and hundreds of thousands of people. And that makes it exciting. As opposed to a Starcraft game where there's one or two shouts from a crowd or no crowd at all, and there's barely 5k viewers. You tell me what's more exciting when those 5k viewers watch some korean they've never heard of cheese some NA kid to death.
The number of people at the event, yes that makes a difference, but I'm not going to choose an event based on the # of people viewing a stream; which is what he was talking about.
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On August 10 2013 04:30 Noro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:23 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 10 2013 04:21 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:04 superstartran wrote:
SC2 took too long to get things fixed. For almost a full year you had nothing but Infestor deathballs/Colossus Deathballs/MMM and Blizzard refused to fix the problem. HotS isn't much better; you still have the same old dynamics, just minor changes here and there. They failed to make a game that is both interesting to watch and to play, i.e. they sucked it up. Not surprising at all. Yeah, honestly watching SC2 is just painful for me now. After watching it since Beta, the same 15-20 minute games that play out exactly the same every single time are just so boring. Protoss turtles till death ball - wins, Zerg roach rushes, wins, Zerg stops Protoss all game - Loses, Terran kills things with marines. You can tout creativity as much as you want but in the end 90% of the games I watch are games i've seen countless times before. Not to mention that the game is fizzling so hard that it's borderline depressing to even pay attention to now. Like it kills me the amount of viewers that people like Day 9 get now as opposed to what they once had. I love Day 9, but man is it depressing seeing numbers for these guys dwindling. Last night on twitch there were 4k viewers for SC2, 3.5k were Artosis and the last 500 were spread out across like 100 other streams. I guess this isn't really a how to fix things post, but if you still like watching SC2, then watch it. Because honestly I think that's the only way this community can keep it alive right now. Personally I'll always be drawn to the biggest and baddest -- LoL finals at the Staples Center, TI3 with the biggest prize pool in history? Why in the world would I ever choose to watch a 20k viewer stream of a WCS FINALS when any random tournament game for League or Dota will fetch 2, 3 even 4 times the viewer numbers without breaking a sweat. The community keeps the game going, and right now the community behind SC2 is dwindling while others thrive. Watch your game, because it goes a long way. /rant Why does the number of people watching an event effect you watching what you want? You don't think viewership adds to the experience? The LoL season 2 finals were held in this massive freaking stadium, every play that happened was followed by the screams of thousands and thousands of people while the stream numbers soared. You know you're sharing that experience with thousands and hundreds of thousands of people. And that makes it exciting. As opposed to a Starcraft game where there's one or two shouts from a crowd or no crowd at all, and there's barely 5k viewers. You tell me what's more exciting when those 5k viewers watch some korean they've never heard of cheese some NA kid to death.
You are sitting in a chair... watching a stream maybe with a few buddies? I know it gets loud when I'm with a few of my buds. Atmosphere is frigging excellent for me. It's not like your frigging there, so that energy your talking about is very minimal. If your there? Sure, the louder other people get the louder you will get because you have to talk over them. The stream numbers are irrelevant. We have a very, very good idea of what the turnouts are going to be. We know our base for each game that's been out for a few years. If your excited show your excitement. Stop being so insecure lol and I'd like to hear about this cheese you speak of because most people use it the wrong way. Just like all-in derp.
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What a depressing thread.
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We are not losing viewers and growing starcraft doesn't have jack to do with WCS.
Ofc there was a huge increase when HOTS was released, people checking the game out but not much more.
Theres one big thing to grow SC2, f2p.
I know much would have to be changed but thats the "easiest" thing to point at.
Other than just that Blizzard could support the local scene more as well as easying up on requiring organizers to actually pay to host events.
Local internet cafes, school clubs and LANs, give out some stuff so they can get hooked.
(this is actually already done but pretty small by Blizzard but in a really small extent)
Wouldn't it be cool if one of your local LANs that hold some smaller tournaments could easily contact Blizzard, get some copies of SC2 to give out and have a CE game or signed copy to give out as prizes?
Damn right it would!
(maybe even Blizzard could create special codes for HOTS so everyone could try out the full MP with Arcade, for 2-3days during the LAN but only during the dates when it's hold)
Theres tons of stuff that can grow our player base but sadly a lot relies on Blizzard actually letting people in.
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On August 10 2013 04:40 []Phase[] wrote:
What a depressing thread.
Who cares, I'm watching TI3. I'll play SC2 when I get home from work.
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On August 10 2013 04:33 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:23 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 10 2013 04:21 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:04 superstartran wrote:
SC2 took too long to get things fixed. For almost a full year you had nothing but Infestor deathballs/Colossus Deathballs/MMM and Blizzard refused to fix the problem. HotS isn't much better; you still have the same old dynamics, just minor changes here and there. They failed to make a game that is both interesting to watch and to play, i.e. they sucked it up. Not surprising at all. Yeah, honestly watching SC2 is just painful for me now. After watching it since Beta, the same 15-20 minute games that play out exactly the same every single time are just so boring. Protoss turtles till death ball - wins, Zerg roach rushes, wins, Zerg stops Protoss all game - Loses, Terran kills things with marines. You can tout creativity as much as you want but in the end 90% of the games I watch are games i've seen countless times before. Not to mention that the game is fizzling so hard that it's borderline depressing to even pay attention to now. Like it kills me the amount of viewers that people like Day 9 get now as opposed to what they once had. I love Day 9, but man is it depressing seeing numbers for these guys dwindling. Last night on twitch there were 4k viewers for SC2, 3.5k were Artosis and the last 500 were spread out across like 100 other streams. I guess this isn't really a how to fix things post, but if you still like watching SC2, then watch it. Because honestly I think that's the only way this community can keep it alive right now. Personally I'll always be drawn to the biggest and baddest -- LoL finals at the Staples Center, TI3 with the biggest prize pool in history? Why in the world would I ever choose to watch a 20k viewer stream of a WCS FINALS when any random tournament game for League or Dota will fetch 2, 3 even 4 times the viewer numbers without breaking a sweat. The community keeps the game going, and right now the community behind SC2 is dwindling while others thrive. Watch your game, because it goes a long way. /rant Why does the number of people watching an event effect you watching what you want? The age old question. Pretty pathetic, don't you think? "Oh I cannot enjoy this anymore because it isn't trendy anymore. Just look at those numbers wah wah wah" I really wish some of you could hear yourselves or reflect back on what you post sometime because it is borderline cuckoo cuckoo.
You're doing the same thing son, literally all these things are popping up and declining viewer numbers is at the root of it. Do you think MLG is dropping the game because of mechanics or gameplay or some other thing? They're dropping it because not enough people watch it and get excited about it anymore. Viewers is everything.
And I base watching SC2 on viewers because I honestly just find it so boring to watch now. But if there were tons of viewers obviously Id look to see what was going on.
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On August 10 2013 04:42 Noro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:33 StarStruck wrote:On August 10 2013 04:23 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 10 2013 04:21 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:04 superstartran wrote:
SC2 took too long to get things fixed. For almost a full year you had nothing but Infestor deathballs/Colossus Deathballs/MMM and Blizzard refused to fix the problem. HotS isn't much better; you still have the same old dynamics, just minor changes here and there. They failed to make a game that is both interesting to watch and to play, i.e. they sucked it up. Not surprising at all. Yeah, honestly watching SC2 is just painful for me now. After watching it since Beta, the same 15-20 minute games that play out exactly the same every single time are just so boring. Protoss turtles till death ball - wins, Zerg roach rushes, wins, Zerg stops Protoss all game - Loses, Terran kills things with marines. You can tout creativity as much as you want but in the end 90% of the games I watch are games i've seen countless times before. Not to mention that the game is fizzling so hard that it's borderline depressing to even pay attention to now. Like it kills me the amount of viewers that people like Day 9 get now as opposed to what they once had. I love Day 9, but man is it depressing seeing numbers for these guys dwindling. Last night on twitch there were 4k viewers for SC2, 3.5k were Artosis and the last 500 were spread out across like 100 other streams. I guess this isn't really a how to fix things post, but if you still like watching SC2, then watch it. Because honestly I think that's the only way this community can keep it alive right now. Personally I'll always be drawn to the biggest and baddest -- LoL finals at the Staples Center, TI3 with the biggest prize pool in history? Why in the world would I ever choose to watch a 20k viewer stream of a WCS FINALS when any random tournament game for League or Dota will fetch 2, 3 even 4 times the viewer numbers without breaking a sweat. The community keeps the game going, and right now the community behind SC2 is dwindling while others thrive. Watch your game, because it goes a long way. /rant Why does the number of people watching an event effect you watching what you want? The age old question. Pretty pathetic, don't you think? "Oh I cannot enjoy this anymore because it isn't trendy anymore. Just look at those numbers wah wah wah" I really wish some of you could hear yourselves or reflect back on what you post sometime because it is borderline cuckoo cuckoo. You're doing the same thing son, literally all these things are popping up and declining viewer numbers is at the root of it. Do you think MLG is dropping the game because of mechanics or gameplay or some other thing? They're dropping it because not enough people watch it and get excited about it anymore. Viewers is everything. And I base watching SC2 on viewers because I honestly just find it so boring to watch now. But if there were tons of viewers obviously Id look to see what was going on.
Son? I'm over 30. What am I doing? I'm mocking people like you. I am very secure with talking about SC2 with anyone. I don't push things. I accept the scene for what is. So you tell me how I'm doing the same thing as you because you and I couldn't be more different. Sorry bucko but I don't buy those can of worms for one second.
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On August 10 2013 04:45 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:42 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:33 StarStruck wrote:On August 10 2013 04:23 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 10 2013 04:21 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:04 superstartran wrote:
SC2 took too long to get things fixed. For almost a full year you had nothing but Infestor deathballs/Colossus Deathballs/MMM and Blizzard refused to fix the problem. HotS isn't much better; you still have the same old dynamics, just minor changes here and there. They failed to make a game that is both interesting to watch and to play, i.e. they sucked it up. Not surprising at all. Yeah, honestly watching SC2 is just painful for me now. After watching it since Beta, the same 15-20 minute games that play out exactly the same every single time are just so boring. Protoss turtles till death ball - wins, Zerg roach rushes, wins, Zerg stops Protoss all game - Loses, Terran kills things with marines. You can tout creativity as much as you want but in the end 90% of the games I watch are games i've seen countless times before. Not to mention that the game is fizzling so hard that it's borderline depressing to even pay attention to now. Like it kills me the amount of viewers that people like Day 9 get now as opposed to what they once had. I love Day 9, but man is it depressing seeing numbers for these guys dwindling. Last night on twitch there were 4k viewers for SC2, 3.5k were Artosis and the last 500 were spread out across like 100 other streams. I guess this isn't really a how to fix things post, but if you still like watching SC2, then watch it. Because honestly I think that's the only way this community can keep it alive right now. Personally I'll always be drawn to the biggest and baddest -- LoL finals at the Staples Center, TI3 with the biggest prize pool in history? Why in the world would I ever choose to watch a 20k viewer stream of a WCS FINALS when any random tournament game for League or Dota will fetch 2, 3 even 4 times the viewer numbers without breaking a sweat. The community keeps the game going, and right now the community behind SC2 is dwindling while others thrive. Watch your game, because it goes a long way. /rant Why does the number of people watching an event effect you watching what you want? The age old question. Pretty pathetic, don't you think? "Oh I cannot enjoy this anymore because it isn't trendy anymore. Just look at those numbers wah wah wah" I really wish some of you could hear yourselves or reflect back on what you post sometime because it is borderline cuckoo cuckoo. You're doing the same thing son, literally all these things are popping up and declining viewer numbers is at the root of it. Do you think MLG is dropping the game because of mechanics or gameplay or some other thing? They're dropping it because not enough people watch it and get excited about it anymore. Viewers is everything. And I base watching SC2 on viewers because I honestly just find it so boring to watch now. But if there were tons of viewers obviously Id look to see what was going on. Son? I'm over 30. What am I doing? I'm mocking people like you. I am very secure with talking about SC2 with anyone. I don't push things. I accept the scene for what is. So you tell me how I'm doing the same thing as you because you and I couldn't be more different. Sorry bucko but I don't buy those can of worms for one second.
boom roasted
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On August 10 2013 04:42 Noro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:33 StarStruck wrote:On August 10 2013 04:23 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 10 2013 04:21 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:04 superstartran wrote:
SC2 took too long to get things fixed. For almost a full year you had nothing but Infestor deathballs/Colossus Deathballs/MMM and Blizzard refused to fix the problem. HotS isn't much better; you still have the same old dynamics, just minor changes here and there. They failed to make a game that is both interesting to watch and to play, i.e. they sucked it up. Not surprising at all. Yeah, honestly watching SC2 is just painful for me now. After watching it since Beta, the same 15-20 minute games that play out exactly the same every single time are just so boring. Protoss turtles till death ball - wins, Zerg roach rushes, wins, Zerg stops Protoss all game - Loses, Terran kills things with marines. You can tout creativity as much as you want but in the end 90% of the games I watch are games i've seen countless times before. Not to mention that the game is fizzling so hard that it's borderline depressing to even pay attention to now. Like it kills me the amount of viewers that people like Day 9 get now as opposed to what they once had. I love Day 9, but man is it depressing seeing numbers for these guys dwindling. Last night on twitch there were 4k viewers for SC2, 3.5k were Artosis and the last 500 were spread out across like 100 other streams. I guess this isn't really a how to fix things post, but if you still like watching SC2, then watch it. Because honestly I think that's the only way this community can keep it alive right now. Personally I'll always be drawn to the biggest and baddest -- LoL finals at the Staples Center, TI3 with the biggest prize pool in history? Why in the world would I ever choose to watch a 20k viewer stream of a WCS FINALS when any random tournament game for League or Dota will fetch 2, 3 even 4 times the viewer numbers without breaking a sweat. The community keeps the game going, and right now the community behind SC2 is dwindling while others thrive. Watch your game, because it goes a long way. /rant Why does the number of people watching an event effect you watching what you want? The age old question. Pretty pathetic, don't you think? "Oh I cannot enjoy this anymore because it isn't trendy anymore. Just look at those numbers wah wah wah" I really wish some of you could hear yourselves or reflect back on what you post sometime because it is borderline cuckoo cuckoo. You're doing the same thing son, literally all these things are popping up and declining viewer numbers is at the root of it. Do you think MLG is dropping the game because of mechanics or gameplay or some other thing? They're dropping it because not enough people watch it and get excited about it anymore. Viewers is everything. And I base watching SC2 on viewers because I honestly just find it so boring to watch now. But if there were tons of viewers obviously Id look to see what was going on.
What are you basing that on?
If you actually looked at numbers you would see that the viewers are still here and actually increased.
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It isn't the fans responsibility to make it grow, its Blizzards. If Blizzard doesn't want to promote their game and allow other companies to prosper off of their game in turn making it bigger and more popular, than theres nothing more to say. As long as Korea continues with Proleague, GSL/OSL and there are some leagues for foreigner watching Sc2 will be around for a long time. Enjoy it and stop trying to make it a charity case..there are much other important causes to promote than whine about how Sc2 is getting its ass kicked by Mobas and we should spend more money to make it "grow".
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Blizzard should lower game prices for new gamers. Perhaps provide WOL and HOTS combo pack for $49.99 so people interested in sc2 will be more enticed to go out and buy it. Perhaps also a lower HOTS price for the expansion since its been out a bit. I still see a lot of gamers on WOL who haven't made the switch. The main issue I see between us and the other games is accessibly. LoL, Dota2, and I believe world of tanks might be wrong are all free to play. I'm not saying blizzard should go this route but we need to make the game more accessible to more gamers. I have spoken with a lot of gamers outside the scene and most of them are not interested in trying an RTS because it just isn't what they are use too. I believe offering SC2 WOL/HOTS at a lower rate will make it more accessible for those first time RTS players. We have a great product but we need to get a wider reach within the entire gaming community.
Just some food for thought.
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On August 10 2013 04:45 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:42 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:33 StarStruck wrote:On August 10 2013 04:23 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 10 2013 04:21 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:04 superstartran wrote:
SC2 took too long to get things fixed. For almost a full year you had nothing but Infestor deathballs/Colossus Deathballs/MMM and Blizzard refused to fix the problem. HotS isn't much better; you still have the same old dynamics, just minor changes here and there. They failed to make a game that is both interesting to watch and to play, i.e. they sucked it up. Not surprising at all. Yeah, honestly watching SC2 is just painful for me now. After watching it since Beta, the same 15-20 minute games that play out exactly the same every single time are just so boring. Protoss turtles till death ball - wins, Zerg roach rushes, wins, Zerg stops Protoss all game - Loses, Terran kills things with marines. You can tout creativity as much as you want but in the end 90% of the games I watch are games i've seen countless times before. Not to mention that the game is fizzling so hard that it's borderline depressing to even pay attention to now. Like it kills me the amount of viewers that people like Day 9 get now as opposed to what they once had. I love Day 9, but man is it depressing seeing numbers for these guys dwindling. Last night on twitch there were 4k viewers for SC2, 3.5k were Artosis and the last 500 were spread out across like 100 other streams. I guess this isn't really a how to fix things post, but if you still like watching SC2, then watch it. Because honestly I think that's the only way this community can keep it alive right now. Personally I'll always be drawn to the biggest and baddest -- LoL finals at the Staples Center, TI3 with the biggest prize pool in history? Why in the world would I ever choose to watch a 20k viewer stream of a WCS FINALS when any random tournament game for League or Dota will fetch 2, 3 even 4 times the viewer numbers without breaking a sweat. The community keeps the game going, and right now the community behind SC2 is dwindling while others thrive. Watch your game, because it goes a long way. /rant Why does the number of people watching an event effect you watching what you want? The age old question. Pretty pathetic, don't you think? "Oh I cannot enjoy this anymore because it isn't trendy anymore. Just look at those numbers wah wah wah" I really wish some of you could hear yourselves or reflect back on what you post sometime because it is borderline cuckoo cuckoo. You're doing the same thing son, literally all these things are popping up and declining viewer numbers is at the root of it. Do you think MLG is dropping the game because of mechanics or gameplay or some other thing? They're dropping it because not enough people watch it and get excited about it anymore. Viewers is everything. And I base watching SC2 on viewers because I honestly just find it so boring to watch now. But if there were tons of viewers obviously Id look to see what was going on. Son? I'm over 30. What am I doing? I'm mocking people like you. I am very secure with talking about SC2 with anyone. I don't push things. I accept the scene for what is. So you tell me how I'm doing the same thing as you because you and I couldn't be more different. Sorry bucko but I don't buy those can of worms for one second.
But if there aren't hundreds of thousands of other people liking it, how will I know whether or not I like it? 
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SC2 needs to be F2P if we want any substantial growth. I haven't seen stream viewership increase in a long time and the HotS bump did squat. The day and age of non-F2P esports is dead. Shootmania tried releasing its esports-driven shooter for $30 and no one bought it.
I think it should be done like this.
1. Make online matchmaking free
2. Dramatically increase the time it takes to gain levels and increase the level cap substantially
3. Make MANY more skins for units and buildings (give them a customization ability similar to DOTA2)
4. Put arcade and campaign access behind a paywall
5. Allow people to watch their friends play (with a time delay, or a locked perspective)
6. In-client tournament viewing (obviously)
7. People who pay full retail price get premium tournament content (1080p + more feeds) from major tournaments like NASL, MLG, GSL, etc.
8. Bring back the Facebook friends feature (this allowed me to play with friends I didn't know had SC2)
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On August 10 2013 04:45 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:42 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:33 StarStruck wrote:On August 10 2013 04:23 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 10 2013 04:21 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:04 superstartran wrote:
SC2 took too long to get things fixed. For almost a full year you had nothing but Infestor deathballs/Colossus Deathballs/MMM and Blizzard refused to fix the problem. HotS isn't much better; you still have the same old dynamics, just minor changes here and there. They failed to make a game that is both interesting to watch and to play, i.e. they sucked it up. Not surprising at all. Yeah, honestly watching SC2 is just painful for me now. After watching it since Beta, the same 15-20 minute games that play out exactly the same every single time are just so boring. Protoss turtles till death ball - wins, Zerg roach rushes, wins, Zerg stops Protoss all game - Loses, Terran kills things with marines. You can tout creativity as much as you want but in the end 90% of the games I watch are games i've seen countless times before. Not to mention that the game is fizzling so hard that it's borderline depressing to even pay attention to now. Like it kills me the amount of viewers that people like Day 9 get now as opposed to what they once had. I love Day 9, but man is it depressing seeing numbers for these guys dwindling. Last night on twitch there were 4k viewers for SC2, 3.5k were Artosis and the last 500 were spread out across like 100 other streams. I guess this isn't really a how to fix things post, but if you still like watching SC2, then watch it. Because honestly I think that's the only way this community can keep it alive right now. Personally I'll always be drawn to the biggest and baddest -- LoL finals at the Staples Center, TI3 with the biggest prize pool in history? Why in the world would I ever choose to watch a 20k viewer stream of a WCS FINALS when any random tournament game for League or Dota will fetch 2, 3 even 4 times the viewer numbers without breaking a sweat. The community keeps the game going, and right now the community behind SC2 is dwindling while others thrive. Watch your game, because it goes a long way. /rant Why does the number of people watching an event effect you watching what you want? The age old question. Pretty pathetic, don't you think? "Oh I cannot enjoy this anymore because it isn't trendy anymore. Just look at those numbers wah wah wah" I really wish some of you could hear yourselves or reflect back on what you post sometime because it is borderline cuckoo cuckoo. You're doing the same thing son, literally all these things are popping up and declining viewer numbers is at the root of it. Do you think MLG is dropping the game because of mechanics or gameplay or some other thing? They're dropping it because not enough people watch it and get excited about it anymore. Viewers is everything. And I base watching SC2 on viewers because I honestly just find it so boring to watch now. But if there were tons of viewers obviously Id look to see what was going on. Son? I'm over 30. What am I doing? I'm mocking people like you. I am very secure with talking about SC2 with anyone. I don't push things. I accept the scene for what is. So you tell me how I'm doing the same thing as you because you and I couldn't be more different. Sorry bucko but I don't buy those can of worms for one second.
Congrats on being alive for so long, son, and on being a condecending ass hole. "You" are the collective that keeps asking "how do we help things?" and the answer is, you can keep watching, but other than that, there's nothing you can do. I also accept the scene for what it is, a dying game still leeching off of it's predecessors glory. I never said you should stop watching it, I merely said why I am no longer watching it. I wondered why that was so hard for you to comprehend but really someone who would use the word "bucko" clearly doesn't have a shred of sense floating around in their brain. If you actually see the scene for what it is, you'll know I'm right.
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On August 10 2013 04:49 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:45 StarStruck wrote:On August 10 2013 04:42 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:33 StarStruck wrote:On August 10 2013 04:23 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 10 2013 04:21 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:04 superstartran wrote:
SC2 took too long to get things fixed. For almost a full year you had nothing but Infestor deathballs/Colossus Deathballs/MMM and Blizzard refused to fix the problem. HotS isn't much better; you still have the same old dynamics, just minor changes here and there. They failed to make a game that is both interesting to watch and to play, i.e. they sucked it up. Not surprising at all. Yeah, honestly watching SC2 is just painful for me now. After watching it since Beta, the same 15-20 minute games that play out exactly the same every single time are just so boring. Protoss turtles till death ball - wins, Zerg roach rushes, wins, Zerg stops Protoss all game - Loses, Terran kills things with marines. You can tout creativity as much as you want but in the end 90% of the games I watch are games i've seen countless times before. Not to mention that the game is fizzling so hard that it's borderline depressing to even pay attention to now. Like it kills me the amount of viewers that people like Day 9 get now as opposed to what they once had. I love Day 9, but man is it depressing seeing numbers for these guys dwindling. Last night on twitch there were 4k viewers for SC2, 3.5k were Artosis and the last 500 were spread out across like 100 other streams. I guess this isn't really a how to fix things post, but if you still like watching SC2, then watch it. Because honestly I think that's the only way this community can keep it alive right now. Personally I'll always be drawn to the biggest and baddest -- LoL finals at the Staples Center, TI3 with the biggest prize pool in history? Why in the world would I ever choose to watch a 20k viewer stream of a WCS FINALS when any random tournament game for League or Dota will fetch 2, 3 even 4 times the viewer numbers without breaking a sweat. The community keeps the game going, and right now the community behind SC2 is dwindling while others thrive. Watch your game, because it goes a long way. /rant Why does the number of people watching an event effect you watching what you want? The age old question. Pretty pathetic, don't you think? "Oh I cannot enjoy this anymore because it isn't trendy anymore. Just look at those numbers wah wah wah" I really wish some of you could hear yourselves or reflect back on what you post sometime because it is borderline cuckoo cuckoo. You're doing the same thing son, literally all these things are popping up and declining viewer numbers is at the root of it. Do you think MLG is dropping the game because of mechanics or gameplay or some other thing? They're dropping it because not enough people watch it and get excited about it anymore. Viewers is everything. And I base watching SC2 on viewers because I honestly just find it so boring to watch now. But if there were tons of viewers obviously Id look to see what was going on. Son? I'm over 30. What am I doing? I'm mocking people like you. I am very secure with talking about SC2 with anyone. I don't push things. I accept the scene for what is. So you tell me how I'm doing the same thing as you because you and I couldn't be more different. Sorry bucko but I don't buy those can of worms for one second. But if there aren't hundreds of thousands of other people liking it, how will I know whether or not I like it?
The community is a very good indicator of what is worth watching. The best shows on television have the most viewers. Its not an accident.
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On August 10 2013 04:21 Noro wrote:
Personally I'll always be drawn to the biggest and baddest -- LoL finals at the Staples Center, TI3 with the biggest prize pool in history? Why in the world would I ever choose to watch a 20k viewer stream of a WCS FINALS when any random tournament game for League or Dota will fetch 2, 3 even 4 times the viewer numbers without breaking a sweat.
Because you like the game? Or do you just like watching crowds of people and loud chanting?
I don't need to respond to the rest of your post because even where I disagree it is at least debatable but this..
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On August 10 2013 05:03 Noro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:49 zefreak wrote:On August 10 2013 04:45 StarStruck wrote:On August 10 2013 04:42 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:33 StarStruck wrote:On August 10 2013 04:23 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 10 2013 04:21 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:04 superstartran wrote:
SC2 took too long to get things fixed. For almost a full year you had nothing but Infestor deathballs/Colossus Deathballs/MMM and Blizzard refused to fix the problem. HotS isn't much better; you still have the same old dynamics, just minor changes here and there. They failed to make a game that is both interesting to watch and to play, i.e. they sucked it up. Not surprising at all. Yeah, honestly watching SC2 is just painful for me now. After watching it since Beta, the same 15-20 minute games that play out exactly the same every single time are just so boring. Protoss turtles till death ball - wins, Zerg roach rushes, wins, Zerg stops Protoss all game - Loses, Terran kills things with marines. You can tout creativity as much as you want but in the end 90% of the games I watch are games i've seen countless times before. Not to mention that the game is fizzling so hard that it's borderline depressing to even pay attention to now. Like it kills me the amount of viewers that people like Day 9 get now as opposed to what they once had. I love Day 9, but man is it depressing seeing numbers for these guys dwindling. Last night on twitch there were 4k viewers for SC2, 3.5k were Artosis and the last 500 were spread out across like 100 other streams. I guess this isn't really a how to fix things post, but if you still like watching SC2, then watch it. Because honestly I think that's the only way this community can keep it alive right now. Personally I'll always be drawn to the biggest and baddest -- LoL finals at the Staples Center, TI3 with the biggest prize pool in history? Why in the world would I ever choose to watch a 20k viewer stream of a WCS FINALS when any random tournament game for League or Dota will fetch 2, 3 even 4 times the viewer numbers without breaking a sweat. The community keeps the game going, and right now the community behind SC2 is dwindling while others thrive. Watch your game, because it goes a long way. /rant Why does the number of people watching an event effect you watching what you want? The age old question. Pretty pathetic, don't you think? "Oh I cannot enjoy this anymore because it isn't trendy anymore. Just look at those numbers wah wah wah" I really wish some of you could hear yourselves or reflect back on what you post sometime because it is borderline cuckoo cuckoo. You're doing the same thing son, literally all these things are popping up and declining viewer numbers is at the root of it. Do you think MLG is dropping the game because of mechanics or gameplay or some other thing? They're dropping it because not enough people watch it and get excited about it anymore. Viewers is everything. And I base watching SC2 on viewers because I honestly just find it so boring to watch now. But if there were tons of viewers obviously Id look to see what was going on. Son? I'm over 30. What am I doing? I'm mocking people like you. I am very secure with talking about SC2 with anyone. I don't push things. I accept the scene for what is. So you tell me how I'm doing the same thing as you because you and I couldn't be more different. Sorry bucko but I don't buy those can of worms for one second. But if there aren't hundreds of thousands of other people liking it, how will I know whether or not I like it? The community is a very good indicator of what is worth watching. The best shows on television have the most viewers. Its not an accident.
Ok, well if you know anything about film or music or literature you would know this is just wrong.
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On August 10 2013 05:05 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:21 Noro wrote:
Personally I'll always be drawn to the biggest and baddest -- LoL finals at the Staples Center, TI3 with the biggest prize pool in history? Why in the world would I ever choose to watch a 20k viewer stream of a WCS FINALS when any random tournament game for League or Dota will fetch 2, 3 even 4 times the viewer numbers without breaking a sweat. Because you like the game? Or do you just like watching crowds of people and loud chanting? I don't need to respond to the rest of your post because even where I disagree it is at least debatable but this..
I didn't know a thing about League until I watched the season 2 finals. And seeing that kind of response to a game was amazing. And it got me into the game, and now I enjoy it a great deal, and I like that there is such a massive community to share that with. The two are co-related.
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On August 10 2013 05:06 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 05:03 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:49 zefreak wrote:On August 10 2013 04:45 StarStruck wrote:On August 10 2013 04:42 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:33 StarStruck wrote:On August 10 2013 04:23 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 10 2013 04:21 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:04 superstartran wrote:
SC2 took too long to get things fixed. For almost a full year you had nothing but Infestor deathballs/Colossus Deathballs/MMM and Blizzard refused to fix the problem. HotS isn't much better; you still have the same old dynamics, just minor changes here and there. They failed to make a game that is both interesting to watch and to play, i.e. they sucked it up. Not surprising at all. Yeah, honestly watching SC2 is just painful for me now. After watching it since Beta, the same 15-20 minute games that play out exactly the same every single time are just so boring. Protoss turtles till death ball - wins, Zerg roach rushes, wins, Zerg stops Protoss all game - Loses, Terran kills things with marines. You can tout creativity as much as you want but in the end 90% of the games I watch are games i've seen countless times before. Not to mention that the game is fizzling so hard that it's borderline depressing to even pay attention to now. Like it kills me the amount of viewers that people like Day 9 get now as opposed to what they once had. I love Day 9, but man is it depressing seeing numbers for these guys dwindling. Last night on twitch there were 4k viewers for SC2, 3.5k were Artosis and the last 500 were spread out across like 100 other streams. I guess this isn't really a how to fix things post, but if you still like watching SC2, then watch it. Because honestly I think that's the only way this community can keep it alive right now. Personally I'll always be drawn to the biggest and baddest -- LoL finals at the Staples Center, TI3 with the biggest prize pool in history? Why in the world would I ever choose to watch a 20k viewer stream of a WCS FINALS when any random tournament game for League or Dota will fetch 2, 3 even 4 times the viewer numbers without breaking a sweat. The community keeps the game going, and right now the community behind SC2 is dwindling while others thrive. Watch your game, because it goes a long way. /rant Why does the number of people watching an event effect you watching what you want? The age old question. Pretty pathetic, don't you think? "Oh I cannot enjoy this anymore because it isn't trendy anymore. Just look at those numbers wah wah wah" I really wish some of you could hear yourselves or reflect back on what you post sometime because it is borderline cuckoo cuckoo. You're doing the same thing son, literally all these things are popping up and declining viewer numbers is at the root of it. Do you think MLG is dropping the game because of mechanics or gameplay or some other thing? They're dropping it because not enough people watch it and get excited about it anymore. Viewers is everything. And I base watching SC2 on viewers because I honestly just find it so boring to watch now. But if there were tons of viewers obviously Id look to see what was going on. Son? I'm over 30. What am I doing? I'm mocking people like you. I am very secure with talking about SC2 with anyone. I don't push things. I accept the scene for what is. So you tell me how I'm doing the same thing as you because you and I couldn't be more different. Sorry bucko but I don't buy those can of worms for one second. But if there aren't hundreds of thousands of other people liking it, how will I know whether or not I like it? The community is a very good indicator of what is worth watching. The best shows on television have the most viewers. Its not an accident. Ok, well if you know anything about film or music or literature you would know this is just wrong.
If there's only a handful of people devoted to the game as opposed to thousands, why would I want to become devoted to it? Community devotion shows worth in this industry. We can agree to disagree, but if people aren't watching or playing, then there's probably some issues there. OR it just isn't exposed enough, but SC2 is very well known.
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I'd like to mention something..
When I first got the feeling that starcraft was "dying", I got this hole in my stomach.. I felt that in just a short time, bnet would be empty and nobody would be playing the game anymore. I'm sure a SOMEWHAT similar feeling has hit a lot of other people. Because by the reactions we are seeing, this is a big deal for a lot of people - that sc2 is declining / stopped growing / too much competition via other games.
Now I'd just like to remind people that we love the game, and the game will still be played for years and years. I remember back when I was playing counter strike: source at a reasonably high level in the Norwegian scene. At tops, it would be 400 people idling the main channel, and there was very few tournaments with any good money. The best one could hope for was local lan parties and some online cups for nickles and dimes. But I still loved that game and had fun with it every day. Its no catastrophy if starcraft isn't a stadium sport with superstars earning millions.. I mean, I don't think a single game EVER will get to that stage (and keep there). When eSports grows (which I believe it will do for very many years, becoming huge), there will still be a lot of games being played, and they will vary in popularity globally. But that doesn't mean we can enjoy OUR game. Starcraft is in WAY WAY WAY better shape than CSS ever was, and CSS was perfectly enjoyable from a competitive standpoint even though basically nobody could be a PRO CSS player. I think the absolute best team earned like 50K USD a year or something..
TL;DR: We can all still enjoy our game, the competition doesn't matter to us, we will still have people that loves to play the game, great players will still play the game etcetc
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On August 10 2013 05:02 Noro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 04:45 StarStruck wrote:On August 10 2013 04:42 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:33 StarStruck wrote:On August 10 2013 04:23 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 10 2013 04:21 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:04 superstartran wrote:
SC2 took too long to get things fixed. For almost a full year you had nothing but Infestor deathballs/Colossus Deathballs/MMM and Blizzard refused to fix the problem. HotS isn't much better; you still have the same old dynamics, just minor changes here and there. They failed to make a game that is both interesting to watch and to play, i.e. they sucked it up. Not surprising at all. Yeah, honestly watching SC2 is just painful for me now. After watching it since Beta, the same 15-20 minute games that play out exactly the same every single time are just so boring. Protoss turtles till death ball - wins, Zerg roach rushes, wins, Zerg stops Protoss all game - Loses, Terran kills things with marines. You can tout creativity as much as you want but in the end 90% of the games I watch are games i've seen countless times before. Not to mention that the game is fizzling so hard that it's borderline depressing to even pay attention to now. Like it kills me the amount of viewers that people like Day 9 get now as opposed to what they once had. I love Day 9, but man is it depressing seeing numbers for these guys dwindling. Last night on twitch there were 4k viewers for SC2, 3.5k were Artosis and the last 500 were spread out across like 100 other streams. I guess this isn't really a how to fix things post, but if you still like watching SC2, then watch it. Because honestly I think that's the only way this community can keep it alive right now. Personally I'll always be drawn to the biggest and baddest -- LoL finals at the Staples Center, TI3 with the biggest prize pool in history? Why in the world would I ever choose to watch a 20k viewer stream of a WCS FINALS when any random tournament game for League or Dota will fetch 2, 3 even 4 times the viewer numbers without breaking a sweat. The community keeps the game going, and right now the community behind SC2 is dwindling while others thrive. Watch your game, because it goes a long way. /rant Why does the number of people watching an event effect you watching what you want? The age old question. Pretty pathetic, don't you think? "Oh I cannot enjoy this anymore because it isn't trendy anymore. Just look at those numbers wah wah wah" I really wish some of you could hear yourselves or reflect back on what you post sometime because it is borderline cuckoo cuckoo. You're doing the same thing son, literally all these things are popping up and declining viewer numbers is at the root of it. Do you think MLG is dropping the game because of mechanics or gameplay or some other thing? They're dropping it because not enough people watch it and get excited about it anymore. Viewers is everything. And I base watching SC2 on viewers because I honestly just find it so boring to watch now. But if there were tons of viewers obviously Id look to see what was going on. Son? I'm over 30. What am I doing? I'm mocking people like you. I am very secure with talking about SC2 with anyone. I don't push things. I accept the scene for what is. So you tell me how I'm doing the same thing as you because you and I couldn't be more different. Sorry bucko but I don't buy those can of worms for one second. Congrats on being alive for so long, son, and on being a condecending ass hole. "You" are the collective that keeps asking "how do we help things?" and the answer is, you can keep watching, but other than that, there's nothing you can do. I also accept the scene for what it is, a dying game still leeching off of it's predecessors glory. I never said you should stop watching it, I merely said why I am no longer watching it. I wondered why that was so hard for you to comprehend but really someone who would use the word "bucko" clearly doesn't have a shred of sense floating around in their brain. If you actually see the scene for what it is, you'll know I'm right.
Cute. I'm going to ignore all the fluff. I'm getting tired of people saying the game is dying when it isn't. Yes, you said why you aren't watching and I told you it's a pathetic excuse. I'm glad you don't watch it yet still post in the SC2 general section because I don't like bandwagoners. I'd argue you were never a real fan to begin with. I use bucko a lot on these boards when I find someone of your aptitude and it's not my fault you aren't familiar with it and bitch about it. I couldn't disagree more with your looking for acceptance from other's attitude. I find that very weak. While others were playing all the new trendy games guess what I was doing? Playing BW. I don't care what other people think. I don't go out of my way to fit into the crowd. That's not me. Dwelling on the fanbase is borderline idiotic. If you don't like how the game plays out then move on and stop bitching about numbers because as far as I'm concerned we don't need people like you around here.
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On August 10 2013 05:11 Noro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 05:06 zefreak wrote:On August 10 2013 05:03 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:49 zefreak wrote:On August 10 2013 04:45 StarStruck wrote:On August 10 2013 04:42 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:33 StarStruck wrote:On August 10 2013 04:23 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 10 2013 04:21 Noro wrote:On August 10 2013 04:04 superstartran wrote:
SC2 took too long to get things fixed. For almost a full year you had nothing but Infestor deathballs/Colossus Deathballs/MMM and Blizzard refused to fix the problem. HotS isn't much better; you still have the same old dynamics, just minor changes here and there. They failed to make a game that is both interesting to watch and to play, i.e. they sucked it up. Not surprising at all. Yeah, honestly watching SC2 is just painful for me now. After watching it since Beta, the same 15-20 minute games that play out exactly the same every single time are just so boring. Protoss turtles till death ball - wins, Zerg roach rushes, wins, Zerg stops Protoss all game - Loses, Terran kills things with marines. You can tout creativity as much as you want but in the end 90% of the games I watch are games i've seen countless times before. Not to mention that the game is fizzling so hard that it's borderline depressing to even pay attention to now. Like it kills me the amount of viewers that people like Day 9 get now as opposed to what they once had. I love Day 9, but man is it depressing seeing numbers for these guys dwindling. Last night on twitch there were 4k viewers for SC2, 3.5k were Artosis and the last 500 were spread out across like 100 other streams. I guess this isn't really a how to fix things post, but if you still like watching SC2, then watch it. Because honestly I think that's the only way this community can keep it alive right now. Personally I'll always be drawn to the biggest and baddest -- LoL finals at the Staples Center, TI3 with the biggest prize pool in history? Why in the world would I ever choose to watch a 20k viewer stream of a WCS FINALS when any random tournament game for League or Dota will fetch 2, 3 even 4 times the viewer numbers without breaking a sweat. The community keeps the game going, and right now the community behind SC2 is dwindling while others thrive. Watch your game, because it goes a long way. /rant Why does the number of people watching an event effect you watching what you want? The age old question. Pretty pathetic, don't you think? "Oh I cannot enjoy this anymore because it isn't trendy anymore. Just look at those numbers wah wah wah" I really wish some of you could hear yourselves or reflect back on what you post sometime because it is borderline cuckoo cuckoo. You're doing the same thing son, literally all these things are popping up and declining viewer numbers is at the root of it. Do you think MLG is dropping the game because of mechanics or gameplay or some other thing? They're dropping it because not enough people watch it and get excited about it anymore. Viewers is everything. And I base watching SC2 on viewers because I honestly just find it so boring to watch now. But if there were tons of viewers obviously Id look to see what was going on. Son? I'm over 30. What am I doing? I'm mocking people like you. I am very secure with talking about SC2 with anyone. I don't push things. I accept the scene for what is. So you tell me how I'm doing the same thing as you because you and I couldn't be more different. Sorry bucko but I don't buy those can of worms for one second. But if there aren't hundreds of thousands of other people liking it, how will I know whether or not I like it? The community is a very good indicator of what is worth watching. The best shows on television have the most viewers. Its not an accident. Ok, well if you know anything about film or music or literature you would know this is just wrong. If there's only a handful of people devoted to the game as opposed to thousands, why would I want to become devoted to it? Community devotion shows worth in this industry. We can agree to disagree, but if people aren't watching or playing, then there's probably some issues there. OR it just isn't exposed enough, but SC2 is very well known.
I much rather party with the die-hards who have the actual passion for the game then some fucking hipster who only follows some shit because everyone else does.
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On August 10 2013 05:11 Noro wrote:
If there's only a handful of people devoted to the game as opposed to thousands, why would I want to become devoted to it?
Because the game intrigues you? Maybe you have never really been captured by a game before. It happened to me with Go, and it happened with Starcraft. All of this hype, money, crowd, production etc is superfluous. If the game truly grabs your imagination, you won't care about who is watching what. If all you care about is the competitive storylines and production, you will go wherever the crowd goes. Your choice, but to me that is all flash and no substance.
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On August 10 2013 04:51 BlackPanther wrote:
SC2 needs to be F2P if we want any substantial growth. I haven't seen stream viewership increase in a long time and the HotS bump did squat. The day and age of non-F2P esports is dead. Shootmania tried releasing its esports-driven shooter for $30 and no one bought it.
1. Make online matchmaking free
Yes! This would have a huge impact. The new 'Spawning' feature is a good step towards this.
2. Dramatically increase the time it takes to gain levels and increase the level cap substantially
I agree. OR, they could just add more levels, each one taking exponentially more XP to achieve (top level is 100 instead of 60?)
3. Make MANY more skins for units and buildings (give them a customization ability similar to DOTA2)
Love it! Also, animations, voice packs, and effects. BUT, give a player the option to disable seeing them if they find that they are too distracting (maybe purchasing the full game would enable the option to disable them)?
Also, more portraits, decals, etc. Possibly of pro teams or pro players.
4. Put arcade and campaign access behind a paywall
Kind of like the app store on smart phones, etc? "Arcade" even sounds like that. You pay per game, or per hour to gain access. Buy the full game = full access?
8. Bring back the Facebook friends feature (this allowed me to play with friends I didn't know had SC2)
I really loved this feature. I wonder if Blizzard could talk with Facebook to get something like this back.
Overall, I like the idea of a F2P with rewards costing XP and/or a small amount of real money. Some rewards would only be available to people who buy the full game, etc. Lots of possibilities.
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all those people claiming that the game is dying, it isn't its just not growing as fast as league/dota you idiots take a look at league tournaments. waaaaay more people play league but if you compare the 170k they get for their biggest tournament it is not that much compared to their total active playerbase. but with sc2 that percentage of active players watching is bigger then with league.
i hate people stating that sc2 needs to go f2p because it clearly doesn't have to. like some people in this thread already stated, if they drop the price of WOL and make a WOL and HOTS package which has a discount, that could get people into the game as it is cheaper to buy, if a few days a year the trial version has full MP included that could get people into the game (because they would then experience ladder and arcade). i am going to continue to watch tournaments until the game is dead, and even then it won't stop me from looking up VODS. i love this game and people should stop whining and bitchin that this game is dying CUZ IT AIN'T so just drop the fucking hate and start loving more. fuck f2p and the dying shit, SC2 isn't #1 anymore but it damn sure is still #3 on E sports charts.
NOW STOP CLAIMING ITS DYING!
I COMMAND YOU!
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I think its pretty amaizing that sc2 got that big in the first place. 1on1 games are normally not that succesful. Quake Live is f2p and nearly dead. Shootmania costs money and has a much larger community. Even if it would be the most stupid thing ever, I'm sure that sc2 could compete with LoL and DotA 2 in terms of community size and viewer numbers if the game and tournaments would be balanced and centered around 4on4.
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Why did starcraft rise in korea and not other places? I think a lot has to do with presentation, schedule, and team play. Also a lot of it I think is that viewers paid money to watch them much like payperview for a fight. Starcraft matches have to be advertised other places like valve is doing with dota.
Yes, people have to invest in something to care about it. That is the secret to league of legends. You constantly have to pay or play to get get something. I don't think that gamers pay money for events and that is what hurts the leagues. Every person who likes starcraft should have an OSL, GSL, NASL, Dreamhack membership, but that is cluttered.
I think that the problem with starcraft is that it doesn't fit into the styles that they have. Starcraft is really hard for outsiders to get into. It doesn't has too little in game sponsorship. (there should be sponsors during the game.)
To get more attenation realize-
1. Most non-starcraft players don't come to teamliquid.
2. Most of the time you are rooting for individual players and not teams. Which is contrary to what people are used to.
3. its not clear to most new people what they are looking at in terms of match significance.
4. There are so many leagues and things. OSL, GLS, MLG, NASL, WCS, Dreamhack, GO4SC2, TeamstoryCup. Nobody really understands all of them nor their format. There is no context for all of them and how they relate. WCS tries to address that but there are no points listed anywhere, nor explanation of how the points are given that makes any sense.
5. Often brackets are hard to find.
6. There are too many games on too frequently.
7. There is not a lot of community investment into players.
I think the entire process should be redone and simplified. There are too many tournaments without an explanation of context for the major ones.If a player wins a match, does that mean that he is still doing ok? It feels like its presented like a fight when it should be more like golf. You should have the masters. The big events that pay a lot and a lot of lesser tournaments. I'm not really sure which tournaments are important. If you take 5th in MLG or at Dreamhack does one mean you are likely a better player?
Another big problem is the players themselves are presented poorly. When you go and you watch a fight. The fight lasts like 3 hours, but before the fight starts, they spend a lot of time on presentation. In golf they review the players season and talk about their points rankings and money earned.
In presentation events should explain specific players and go over recent events. They also promote more events. The only thing that does this is the NASL. They are probably the most viewer friendly, but lack a significant backing or timeline. I assume that there are major events, but the majority of pros don't go to them.
What it should be.
1. A lot more pay-per-view events or endorsing the sponsors.
1. 1 Day a week there are 3-4 1v1's in the off season.
2. The actual season of major tournaments should be about 5-6 months with a finale. .
3. preferably starting in the fall and going through until spring. (in the summer people are traveling and wanting to be outside.
4. There needs to be a general finale of all tournaments that is clearly addressed.
5. The issue of Player half-life needs to be addressed. Part of the reason that sports flourish is that the stars can be stars even in a bad environment. You can root for bad teams and you have up and coming and veterans. For example, Widow mines basically removed DRG's style of play. Maru beats innovation so every says innovation is slipping and is no longer good.
As much as i like these things, the idea of having all the star players play everywhere hurts things.
There needs to be annual tournaments in a physical location that people can go to. Especially in North America and Europe you should have a season listed all-in one at a time. All the games, all the times. This gives adequate times for sponsors to prepare, and the community time to figure out when to put aside time to watch the bigger events. The teamliquid calendar is confusing for new people.
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the argument "I'll stop watching/playing SC2 because less and less people are doing it" makes me question the level of maturity of this community. I remember like 4 years ago there was a poll and we were mostly over 20 in avrg, but the popularity being such a huge factor in your decision makes me cringe.
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As far as I'm concerned without the resignations of certain key Blizzard execs this game will never be good.
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On August 10 2013 07:32 JP Dayne wrote:
the argument "I'll stop watching/playing SC2 because less and less people are doing it" makes me question the level of maturity of this community. I remember like 4 years ago there was a poll and we were mostly over 20 in avrg, but the popularity being such a huge factor in your decision makes me cringe.
I disagree. knowing that there are tons of people enjoying something with you makes it alot more exciting.
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imo game design of sc2 is a big factor,1 clash games are not fun to watch especially in a tournament finals
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Facing maphackers isn't very fun as well on ladder maybe patch that to start?
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I believe it lies within the nature of a good RTS that it cant be played casual to the same extent as FPS or MOBA games. Even though sc2 was dumbed down a lot compared to BW (well, the mechanics gap was scaled down) it's still not enough. Playing the game often becomes stressful rather than relaxing. 1v1 being the most popular mode to play in also makes the game less casual friendly than 3v3 or 5v5 games. Personally I find it quite sad because in the end it is not the game that requires the most diverse skill that succeeds in esports, rather it is the game with the most casual friendly environment. It sort of a lose/lose scenario, make the game even easier to play and more casual friendly = more viewership, but lowers the learning curve and takes away a lot of whats actually impressive and fun (imo) about RTS as a genre. Make the game harder to play and less casual friendly = The skills top players need to possess will be much more impressive, the game itself more complex, but you will most certainly kill it off as an esport forever, due to shutting out casual players.
The way ive always felt about BW and SC2 is that those who watch for entertainment rarely plays the game. The same thing cannot be said for LoL, Dota2 etc.
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On August 10 2013 08:14 _Search_ wrote:
As far as I'm concerned without the resignations of certain key Blizzard execs this game will never be good.
This. I've had DOTA2 for a year now (only have played a lot in the last 6 months) and there is more content and features and just cool stuff coming into this game (or has come) in that time than I have seen in 3 years of SC2. Something has to be wrong at Blizzard, a company of that size, with that kind of resource pool has to be doing nothing to do this bad of a job.
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On August 09 2013 23:31 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 23:23 Esoterikk wrote:
It's up to Blizzard to fix the game on a fundamental level, unfortunately Blizzard is the least likely to do anything because sc2 isn't their main source of income. They could "fix" anything. Realtime strategy still is not as attractive as a whole as other genres. One should rather look at the success of SC2: The first global esports RTS.
Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Genres of games get less and more popular by time. Nowdays everyone is about action RTS or moba's as they call it. Same reason that if you made a quake like fps it simply won't get as popular as quake used to be cause everyone is into COD that that kind of games.
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So many things to think of from major to minor, the main thing though is that SC2 is hard and can be intimidating, Think it'd be a good idea to make a dumbed down mode for casuals to learn the basics and be a bridge from total newb to the ladder. Still essentially the same game but less macro and depth, streamline it and focus on the fun stuff, micro and battles without overwhelming people's multitasking capabilities. Perhaps lower the supply cap and alter the way resources work so you don't need as many workers or bases, smaller maps etc. It'll always be a shadow of the real game but if it was free to play, part of the arcade or a separate mode, would act as a nice gateway drug to get them hooked, or something to mess around with when you wanna dick about.Sounds horrible to the purists I know, and I'm sure I'll get shit for it, but it's not directed at them.
Probably worded it badly and haven't thought it out completely but I think there's something there. Doubt anything will come of it, but I think SC2 needs some sort of mechanism to make it easier for noobs to experience a taste of the game without having to devote so much time and energy. Something of the sort would act as a launching pad for new viewers and new players hopefully, or a way to introduce your friends to the game without melting their minds.
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I want to customize my units. Just something outside the game itself... Cause playing the same thing over and over again with no change is just boring... not interesting... I think most people feel the same about it and thats why people pick starcraft2 up and drop it or just try it and never buy it.
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On August 09 2013 21:41 aka_star wrote:
We're 3 years into it, its kinda safe to say the SC2 boom has passed and we should be expecting a decline. The numbers never could touch the free to play games, to be honest speed running Zelda 64 today gets more viewers than some SC2 tournaments. Sad but true and it raises more money through donations whereas SC2 fans hate dropping $5 for a ticket. I'm speculating SC2 will have to go back to being a niche game like the old BW days but to be honest I know nothing.
You're right. Cosmo consistently gets 4-5k+ every time he streams. He's been over 10k before.
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Grow starcraft? Mainstream advertising aimed at people who have never heard of eSports. Worked on me, but we can't all happen to have lunch with a masters level zerg.
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Starcraft has to be the only game where so many people vocally hate the game, it's design, it's genre, and the developer yet still spend most of their time dicussing it/watching it. It's pretty hilarious to be a part of.
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Stop worrying about streaming numbers my god. I would never watch someone ladder, I don't care who it is but I watch all of SPL, GSL, and OSL.
I don't watch EU one NA WCS but most of that is because it's not in front of a big audience like Korean tourneys and even the foreign finals are a bracket and not an actual finals like OSL et al.
Tournaments should be live in front of crowds. Finals should have at least a weeks worth of hype for one match. Without that it hardly feels like a sport.
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On August 10 2013 00:06 KJSharp wrote:
If playing starcraft 2 made you feel more like a general commanding a war, and less like a battle or a chess match, it would garner a highest viewership. No matter how cool the game looks from a spectator's point of view, it is lacking the element of "epicness" that can't come from cool laser beams.
It's harder to be more wrong than this. The whole point of Starcraft is that it's a fight, a chess match and a poker game all in one. This is the attraction from a spectator point of view.
You are talking about from a playing point of view, but those sorts of games cannot be eSports, their mechanical skill ceiling is simply far too low.
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One day computer can read our minds and use that information to play a game of starcraft without keyboards and mouse. Games these days are becoming simpler and "easier" to play that even SC2 a game where its been "dumbed" down alot is still considered difficult.
Until something new and innovative comes along and makes the game easier than LoL or DotA.. Its quite difficult to think of ways to bring SC2 at the top of the charts..
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Team games are easy and fun because you are with your friends. It's much more fun to blame your teammates for losing.
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Making the game free to play helps alot, and I mean ALOT.
But Blizzard would never do something like that,
Theres also HUGE problems with matchups like TvP being stagnant and boring. The only saving grace for this game from what I see is a complete revamp of protoss units in LoTV. Otherwise, this game is gonna be dead.
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It's unfortunate, but I don't think sc2 will ever come back to the numbers it had when it was at the top of eSports. With games like LoL and Dota 2 designed to be played by more people, you see unique games that are entertaining time and time again. Sc2 wears you out after awhile with the same builds and openings, but more importantly, it just leads up to the final fight to determine the winner almost every time. Plus, Blizzard pushed for WCS too early without fixing the problems that have arised. They literally "ripped" the heart out of the swarm for me. Blizzard doesn't deserve my viewership nor anybody elses. They have to EARN it and screwing up how WCS worked does not help.
Alas, I still watch sc2 from time to time, but it's not as enjoyable anymore with Korean players dominating nearly every scene and me not being as good anymore. If sc2 wants more viewers, maybe team games with bigger maps? Like iNcontroL said, sc2 won't die off so soon and people will still play it. People have said LoL viewership will plateau. Who knows? I know I'm watching TI3 this weekend and rooting for Na'Vi (always rooted for you TL, but you had an amazing run!).
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On August 10 2013 16:44 Nightsz wrote:
Making the game free to play helps alot, and I mean ALOT.
But Blizzard would never do something like that,
Theres also HUGE problems with matchups like TvP being stagnant and boring. The only saving grace for this game from what I see is a complete revamp of protoss units in LoTV. Otherwise, this game is gonna be dead.
I find this to be like one of the biggest things they overlook; but only because of how much work it would be. This has nothing to do with balance, but rather, Protoss base game design is completely abysmal. The play style is completely opposite from BW; which is okay in and of itself. The problem however, is how it ended up. I still maintain that things such as warpgate do more harm than good for the game, especially for protoss players. Even more so. is that for 3 years Protoss has not had one unit to "micro" in a manner that really showed exceptional skill. The closest thing is blink stalkers, but any high level player who has played around with mass blink stalkers knows it's nothing special. It'd be sick to be able to bring back a similar game style from BW that encourages skill and skill based units. When you have things like Immortals that cannot attack units being picked up and dropped by a medivac because they attack too slow it's just hilarious that you're supposed to be able to do anything about it.
I wrote a blog a while ago about spell casters as well, but people overlook this stuff and just accept the game for what it is. The issue is that it's these very things that make the game incredibly boring.
Sadly, the best way for the game to grow would be developer influence. As we all know, that's not going so well at the moment. Blizzard needs to directly confront pro players and get their advice instead of doing everything with their team of 4(?) WCS employees. I think it's definitely still something that can happen for Legacy of the Void, but something they'll need to focus very hard on if they want the growth the community is looking for at this point!
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too much whining on this thread.
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How about a bnet that doesnt suck. I mean batle net UI seems like it was designed for a console game and seriously.. the freaking arcade system?
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To be honest I don´t see the problems most of you guys have. There is plenty of SC2 content every single day! Mori09 for example, a german caster, has more viewers than he ever had before. We have a RO 16 with ~50k + viewers during the week.
And imo it is not Blizzards fault that more and more people are playing LoL. It would be if you consider LoL or DOTA a RTS-Game but they are not. If you want to play tennis, you go and play tennis and then it does not matter how often you are told that hockey is better because it might easier to follow or because you can play with friends as a team. It occurs to me that most of the criticism is about the RTS-Genre in general. Not about SC2.
Plus I don´t think that neither LoL nor DOTA are easier to get into. I tried both of them for countless (especially LoL because everyone seems to love it) hours and still I don´t have a clue what to do or what these games are about. Maybe I´m too stupid who knows...
Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaars ago CSS was Esport #1 now it´s LoL. So what?! Times change, still there are more than enough players for SC 2.
I love the game the way it is. Maybe there is sth wrong with me. :X
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its not going to grow. If you enjoy it just continue to watch and support it
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A lot of people posting here werent around for the bw days. unless u lived in korea and you played the game, actively looked for the content you wouldnt of known about it. I work with 11-16 yr olds, they have never heard of starcraft! It disgusts me to talk to them, you name any MLG type game and they have no clue but COD yo!
Starcraft is a VERY inaccessible;e game made inaccessible by us lot. we are far FAR TOO competitive and noone really wants to help anyone. Game after game i play i lose and get the BM, ive stopped responding in game totally now, i dont care if i win or lose but i certainly dont want some same league guy advising me how to play my race when looking at the stat screen at the end it was as even as it could have been till the crucial engagement. Anyway i digress. Starcraft is hard, starcraft has a VERY VERY steep learning curve to get anywhere (good) and everyone thinks they are going to get on the OSL finals stage, and make a living off it. Starcraft will maintain THIS level of popularity for the rest of its time, in fact so far i think there is way more exposure now than there ever was. Blizzard hasnt done anything wrong, the player base when they go on tilt lose interest, we get bored, (i dont but im not the person who thinks theres a problem here).
So TLDR, starcraft is just too hard and inaccessible for casual players to get in, no wonder it has a declining viewer/support base. Even the harcore players have issues . . look at me, nerf those fucking widow mines man!
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People complain that SC2 has less players than n00b games like LoL or Dota.
Most proposed solution -> make SC2 more like BW.
...
wtf?
And about that "static games" thing: balanced games that follow intrinsic "rules" ARE static when they are figured out, look at chess (or soccer or any positional-based game of sport). There is just no reason to attack if you can predict the outcome of the battle unless you have a tremendous advantage; and if you can't, that's just means the game is too random and therefore cannot be mastered in a competitive way whatsoever.
Here in EU tons of morons can watch soccer games for 90+ minutes where players are running on the grass doing basically nothing and still cheer loudly for their favorite player while having beer with friends, and they only are slightly disappointed when the result is a 0-0 at the end of the match.
If SC2 is like Tennis, let it be: it does not need mass viewers, it need to be balanced and fun FOR SOME PLAYERS. Those who wish to play another game (or BW), then go and play another game (or BW), they are out there waiting for you. And let Blizzard do their job.
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Get rid of bronze, silver, gold, platinum and diamond league, so everybody is master or grandmaster. People would love it!
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What Blizzard should do is rename Starcraft 2 something else.. like Warcraft 4. Then in 1 year they should say "SC2 is coming.." and make a new game from scratch without tarnishing the reputation of the best RTS in history.
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Well to be honest, LAN would be a great idea...
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might get warned for this... but ima say it anyway.
Balance the game properly (not being bias to and races here)
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I've not read through this thread, but an element which I think would make sc2 more exciting to watch and for players to play in competition is to create performance based bonuses similar to what the UFC do, something along the lines of:
UFC - Fight of the Night / SC2 Match/Series of the competition
UFC - Submission of the Night / SC2 Most Innovative Strategy of the competition
UFC - Knockout of the Night / SC2 Best Comeback of the competition
with fixed cash prizes for each and picked by the competition and not publicly so players who deserve it could pick up these extra cash bonuses for smart, strong and exciting play.
I'd also like to see Blizzard team up with one or some of the online tournament platforms and come to some way to include signups and run the tournaments through starcraft itself.
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Hi. I've been thinking a lot about this lately and decided to share my thoughts with you guys.
Battlenet
Back in the old days of SC1 what was the most social place you could go to on the internet? It was the chat rooms. Blizzard showed their brilliance back then by designing Battlenet user interface like a chat room.
Today we have social networks like Facebook and Twitter. Blizzard should have designed their new Battlenet just like those social networks.
Imagine if you had your page where you could write things about yourself and check out your statistics,
a page where you can see your friends, contact them, organise groups, teams,
chat rooms that are not in a small corner of your screen,
pages where you can read and follow tournaments, acces replays,
a way to follow your favorite players,
a good normal ladder (like ICCup) and maybe seperate regional ladders for example: UK, Germany, France and so on.
Game
Dota1 is an awesome game I loved to play it and to watch it. Valve took Dota1 and made the same game (minor differences) with better graphics, support and generally just better, more modern game.
Blizzard on the other hand took the concept of StarCraft and made a new game totally different. I think that was a mistake.
I played Zerg in Broodwar because I loved the "choo choo" train or "avalance" feeling it gave me. Let me explain. You play Zerg by expanding everywhere, macroing, harassing, delaying your opponent and then one beautiful glorious moment comes when you invade and overwhelm your opponent with millions of Zerglings.
In SC2 that's not the case, Zerg feels more like Terran in SC1, build your army of bl infestor or swarm host and just siege your opponent. While Terran in SC2 to me feels like Zerg in SC1, constant aggression. Everything changed for the worse. That’s my feeling at least. Does anyone feel the same or am I just stupid? In either case its a different game and if SC1 was/is so incredible then why rob us of it?
So what I think they should do is redesign the core mechanics: economy, mules, warpgates, injects, units like colossus, broodlords, medivacs, marauders, roaches and many more. They are badly designed and boring in my opinion.
One last thing that might sound counter-intuitive I think they should decrease movement speed of all units. That would allow for better micro, less volatile matches, more special tactics and higher entertainment overall for viewers.
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As I said in another thread, the 2 most important things Blizz should do to attract casual players are:
1) make WoL free to play
2) support team games in every possible way, from good maps to specific balance tweaks if needed.
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Make it harder to play. Get rid of the worker tabs and shit like that.
Starcraft should be the niche game, and hold the title of 'toughest game'. Thats its niche, always been that way. Since HOTS blizzard decided to go half and half, making it slightly more accessible like LOL but getting stuck in the middle, so all it did was anger old school starcraft fans while LOL players continued playng LOL.
Essentially I don't want or expect Starcraft to ever become 'mainstream'. If you dumb it down all you do is alienate your niche audience without really gaining anything since there are other games out there which do what you are aiming for much better.
Also fuck team games in starcraft. That shit is for fun, not esports. This is the 1v1 game bud, sorry. I doubt I'd be watching if this wasn't 1v1.
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On August 10 2013 20:07 Green_25 wrote:
Make it harder to play. Get rid of the worker tabs and shit like that.
Starcraft should be the niche game, and hold the title of 'toughest game'. Thats its niche, always been that way. Since HOTS blizzard decided to go half and half, making it slightly more accessible like LOL but getting stuck in the middle, so all it did was anger old school starcraft fans while LOL players continued playng LOL.
Essentially I don't want or expect Starcraft to ever become 'mainstream'. If you dumb it down all you do is alienate your niche audience without really gaining anything since there are other games out there which do what you are aiming for much better.
Also fuck team games in starcraft. That shit is for fun, not esports. This is the 1v1 game bud, sorry. I doubt I'd be watching if this wasn't 1v1.
If you don't cater to non-hardcore players in some way you can't have a lot of viewers, and if you don't have a lot of viewers the competitive scene eventually will fade out (edit: not saying this is the actual state of the game since there is probably an oversaturation of events that's hurting viewer numbers). Nobody is saying that there should be 4v4 or Starjeweled tournaments, the real competition will always be 1v1 (hopefully 2v2 as well!), but the game desperately needs something fun for the mass - actually it needs a "mass" in the first place, that's why f2p works.
Half the SC2 playerbase doesn't even try the multiplayer part, and most of the people are literally FRIGHTENED by 1v1. This can be ok because 1v1 is physically and mentally challenging, but it isn't ok at all if people run away from the Starcraft franchise because there is nothing left for them besides that scary 1v1 ladder. SC2 lacks connection between the competitive scene and the average player experience.
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SC2 is dying but at a slow rate. I'm no longer enjoying playing nor watching SC2 games anymore. I'm sure that I'm in the majority.
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I don't think it has anything to do with being 1v1 or repetitive. Most real life sports are much more repetitive and some of them (like tennis) are 1v1, yet they have huge viewership numbers. In anything, SC2 is not repetitive and simple enough to go mainstream.
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The technology needs to be there already. Add LAN.
Bring out LotV sooner and drop the single player to get substantial savings on development costs. Just perfect the multiplayer and bring it to market for free or at a marginal cost.
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* Too many tournaments. With all the same players no less. I watch NBA and Euroleague not for more basketball but for different basketball. If all the same teams played everywhere I wouldn't bother to watch. I can hardly care who wins, i.e., current OSL finals. It's just one of many tournaments. And blizzard, taking a page from xkcd book on standards, is solving this problem by adding one more tournament. Facepalm.
* Results are too unpredictable. Even casters fail to predict correctly so often. Even TL writers fail so often. And they have so much experience. Game is too random. I wouldn't have enough sugar to sugarcoat this elephant in the room even if I wanted to.
* Games are too similar. Too boring. Too unpredictable (Yes it all is possible all at once. Think of a coin toss tournament). In basketball I can watch advantage building up. Every point matters, every cool play matters. I can watch the team building up their advantage and winning eventually. Or I can watch the other team starting catching up, and winning eventually. I see very clearly why winner is winner. What I cannot see in basketball is Lakers leading by 25 pts but then Kobe running into a "nice conclave" of Thunders, losing a ball, Durant throwing a stupid three pointer from his own basket, hitting, and it suddenly counts for 30 pts and Thunder wins by five. It's just stupid when majority of the game doesn't matter at all. If it doesn't matter I do not care to watch it, as simple as that. Can we fast forward to moments that do matter? And the biggest facepalm is when casters say "one mistake can cost a game" as if it's a good thing. One mistake should cost the game only when players are extremely equal, situation is extremely equal, etc. etc., not virtually in every game.
* Casters are hyping it too much. Artificial hype sometimes makes me wanting to throw up. Figuratively. And not every caster. Just majority of them. Also, wtf, I am watching basketball for 20+ years and I have never ever heard any basketball caster asking me to go on twitter or stupid Facebook and tweet about the game/tournament/him. SC2 casters do it on a regular basis.
* Supply cap is too low. "Did some damage to opponent" usually means precisely jack$jh1t since the opponent immediately rebuilds back to cap. Imagine what if there was a cap how many pts you may get per quarter in basketball. Sooo retarded. Yes I am aware it's a different game, but the low supply cap has precisely this effect. Which again leads to "cool" plays that eventually won't matter, to being unable to assess the situation from a regular viewers point (or from casters point as well way too often).
* B.net is full of braindamaged kids. I have played basketball a lot in my life, I used to travel a lot too, meaning I used to play in lots of different places with lots of people I didn't know. Never ever, not once, I saw anything close to what I used to see on battle.net on a regular basis. No "lol noob", no "fucking cheeser", nothing. 2v2 in battle.net is plagued by this.
This is just my opinion, it's quite possible fixing all the things I listed won't help the game to become popular because other people may (dis)like different things. But that's why I can't imagine myself getting bored by basketball and stopping watching it for good. Which is already happening with SC2. And I've been watching basketball literally more than 10 times longer than SC2.
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On August 10 2013 20:53 Big G wrote:
Half the SC2 playerbase doesn't even try the multiplayer part, and most of the people are literally FRIGHTENED by 1v1. This can be ok because 1v1 is physically and mentally challenging, but it isn't ok at all if people run away from the Starcraft franchise because there is nothing left for them besides that scary 1v1 ladder. SC2 lacks connection between the competitive scene and the average player experience.
IMHO thats the negative side of so many progamers streaming and tournaments. You can see realy good players participating there all the time, this creates a more tense atmosphere when people want to play. They dont have to wait long to meet someone that says "but progamer X said this, so the way you play is shit". Regardless if they are right or not, this adds pressure, along with the need to look for buildorders and counters for units. There is always this aura of this super competative game.
Compare this to Dota2. Not only is the player only a part of a team (and thus his errors can potentially be made up by stronger teammates), he gets a list of items to buy for his hero. If you want to play at higher levels and learned the game you can and will alter this, but for a new player thats pure gold.
So one of the things that makes SC2 different compared to MOBA games (1v1/5v5) also is one of the big reasons there is not much influx of new players.
Only slightly related, but if you look at TCG, you can see how this 1v1 pressure can be avoided if the game itself promotes a more casual view. Magic the Gathering has a very good pro scene, there are "build orders" (decks, sideboarding) and it takes more money than the 30 € you have to pay for SC2, offering tournaments 24/7 (on MTGO) online or on several days offline. There is lots of money to win too.
But there are a TON of casual players on MTGO too, playing 1v1 all the time (not even counting those who use free programs like cockatrice). You can find all kinds of decks and they are not afraid to use them. Why? My guess is because MTG is more or less labeled as a fun cardgame you play on your kitchentable with friends. From there you can get to low lvl tournaments even with beginner decks and you even get cards for participating.
I hope its clear what I want to say, its kinda hard to describe.
Assuming Hearthstone is a decent game, wanna bet that there won't be "ladder anxiety"? That there will be tournaments and that the lobby will be always full with new players?
edit:
On August 10 2013 22:17 Sejanus wrote:
* Casters are hyping it too much. Artificial hype sometimes makes me wanting to throw up. Figuratively. And not every caster. Just majority of them. Also, wtf, I am watching basketball for 20+ years and I have never ever heard any basketball caster asking me to go on twitter or stupid Facebook and tweet about the game/tournament/him. SC2 casters do it on a regular basis.
Thats a realy good point too. I get so annoyed that each day we get bombarded with "OMG this is soooo epic". Sometimes I get the impression that Tastosis use the "Thats the best XvX I've ever casted" every match. Passion is good, but if casters hype the shit out of everything there is no real room for the plays that stand out more.
The social media crap is getting out of hand too. Its long past the point of inviting the viewers to participate, its gone full into lets show the sponsors you can get a few FB likes, reddit upvotes or twitter followers. And not only do they promote the sponsors (thats necessary), they promote themselves too all the time. Thats like a sports commentator begging for followers during every break or once a player scored a goal. "Wow, what a great shot, now follow #Messi on twitter and facebook".
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@ Gr33d: couldn't agree more. Thanks for elaborating on that point.
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On August 10 2013 22:17 Sejanus wrote:
* Casters are hyping it too much. Artificial hype sometimes makes me wanting to throw up. Figuratively. And not every caster. Just majority of them. Also, wtf, I am watching basketball for 20+ years and I have never ever heard any basketball caster asking me to go on twitter or stupid Facebook and tweet about the game/tournament/him. SC2 casters do it on a regular basis.
* B.net is full of braindamaged kids. I have played basketball a lot in my life, I used to travel a lot too, meaning I used to play in lots of different places with lots of people I didn't know. Never ever, not once, I saw anything close to what I used to see on battle.net on a regular basis. No "lol noob", no "fucking cheeser", nothing. 2v2 in battle.net is plagued by this.
First point is pretty valid, and I tend to agree. It's silly to watch a caster talk about how someone still has a chance when they're 50 supply down, if they get that "perfect engagement". It's very, very cheesy and it kind of downplays the skill of the person who's crushing his opponent. And the twitter shoutouts do get mighty old.
However, every game is full of braindamaged kids. I mean, have you even played another competitive online game? Comparing it to RL experience with sports doesn't really hold up when every single game has this issue. And it doesn't stop games like LoL and DotA2 from getting massive userbases and viewer numbers. There are other things, that are vastly more important than BM that can be looked at to improve numbers, though I won't deny that it couldn't hurt.
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Comparing it to RL experience with sports doesn't really hold up when every single game has this issue
And it doesn't stop games like LoL and DotA2 from getting massive userbases and viewer numbers
You are right, it probably won't stop the game from becoming mainstream. At most it adds a little bit to all the other reasons why SC2 is not becoming mainstream. But I just had to write it since it was the reason a few of my friends named when they stopped playing SC2.
From my own experience I can tell you Dawn of War and Dawn of War 2 playerbase is far better, but these games are even less popular, so yeah. You are right.
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They need to do the same thing they did with China for HotS in Korea. One of the main reason why BW was so popular to play was that it easy to access (they could go to any LAN to play, no need to create acc or bullshit like that), it could be torrented and played with friends over the LAN (yes, piracy actually helps game companies).
I guess now that Blizzard is money hungry including LAN and shit won't be possible for now, but it would be much better if they can. At least they should be releasing the LAN version for large scale tournaments, such as GSL, MLG, OSL, NASL, etc to use so that we won't see some of the disconnect bullshit.
They need to make Starcraft II more accessible for Koreans. Korea was where it all started, and for now almost all the koreans are into LoL, mainly because its free. This might also apply to other regions where people aren't willing to spend over 60USD to get both HotS and WoL and play SCII. As a Korean I've been trying to get more of my friends to play SCII but they won't because of the above reasons. (First thing is the fact that they have to buy the game, next is creating accounts, and the fact that even playing at LANs requie account)
The next problem would be its gameplay. Currently, other than TvZ and TvT all other match-up's late game battles only last 10 seconds, and most of the time it was about playing passively and not doing much until that final engagement. Back in Broodwar engagements lasted up to a minute, providing the viewers with an intense battle that you couldn't predict until the very end. Watch any balanced late game battles, whether its Zerg trying their best to break through terran's tank line, Protoss trying to hold off waves of zergs with their powerful zealot archon reaver army or Protoss gateway units charging at the Seige line from multiple directions. Those games were very exciting for viewers to watch and was intense as hell. Furthermore, we always saw small engagements around the map with players trying to get more map control, and insane micros such as mine dragging, lurker dodging, etc. We miss all of those.
Although this problem requires too much of change to be addressed now, I believe this is one of the problem that needs to be addressed. Watching 30 minute PvT isn't really that exciting, compared to Broodwar, or even SCII TvZ.
The last problem that I think needs to be addressed to help SCII is the casual scene. The custom games were what attracted all the casual players back then in BW - I remember sitting in front of my computer, wasting 3 hours playing various Custom games on Bnet. I don't know why, but now in SCII I don't have that same feeling with the SCII arcade. Also exactly what Gr33d pointed out - Not everyone wants to play 1v1s. This game needs to reduce its pressure on people to play competitive 1v1s, and play more casual stuff.
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surrender the IP rights as Blizzard did for South Korean promoters/tv show makers more than a decade ago.
go back to the "wild west" Brood War days in 2000-2003.
This is SC2's only chance to become what Brood War was early in this century.
This probably won't work. But, its SC2's only chance.
After this it boils down to people spending money to watch the best play.
Remember MLG's failed drive for 100,000 Gold Members? its these kinds of things that no one paid any attention to that greased the skids of MLG dropping SC2.
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And if you think the game's boring thats your oppinion. Do you have any arguements for that?
I know pretty well what's boring and what's not for me without any additional arguments. Not sure what are you trying to say. The rest of your post hardly makes any sense to me either, probably I am just missing something. You talk as if I have to prove something to you, and I believe I don't.
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Then its sort of a pointless thing to post. "Why do you dislike X?" - "because"
I explained why I dislike. At least a few people did understand. Again, not sure what do you want, but I am bored already. No I am not going to try and prove to you that I really dislike SC2 due to reasons listed above.
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I've pretty much given up the hope, maybe they do something amazing with LotV but most likely not.
We've gone through the discussions so many times before how there's a lot of things that could techincally improve the game from the point it is in now, but I don't know if it's too much work for Blizzard or too big of a risk to go for the changes.
Hell, right now I have a feeling that even Brood War was more fun for casual player.
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4713 Posts
You can't compare real sports to playing video games like that. The fact of the matter is, the barrier between the two opponents, the internet, distance, and time remove empathy from the equation.
When you play sports and you are running your ass off and sweating and suffering its much easier to respect the other guy that is also doing this but is maybe outplaying you, the proximity gives you a greater sense of connection and you can see and feel it in a much more palpable way, and thus respect it. Its far too easy in video games to fall into the trap of focusing on yourself and your own effort so much that you can't feel and thus even acknowledge the existence of the other guy's skill.
In my opinion there isn't anything more we can do to grow SC2 scene, as hard as you may try to tell more people about it and draw them in its ultimately up to the game to be exciting and dynamic enough to hook people and keep them in, and accessible enough that as many people as possible can pick it up.
What idea I have though, is maybe, more focus on fun and less on balance. Seriously we are too uptight, too obsessed with balanced, that we are forgetting what is really important, the fun of it, the big plays the exciting moments, we let our feelings of unfairness pollute or vision.
I say people should take a step back and complain less about balance and maybe focus more on having fun. If people keep seeing us qqing constantly about fairness and balance and perceive our frustration they will, naturally, conclude we aren't having fun or that we are masochists, and obviously lying about how awesome and fun the game is and that will, naturally drive people away.
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The problem with sc2 in my opinion is that it's too stale. The first 10 minutes of a game is like drone..drone...drone. Probe...probe....probe.....probe. It's not so exciting to watch when it's just all about being super greedy and take 3 bases asap. Not only that but i feel like there should be some tension going on aswell like these small but crucial battles that could happen early on in a match. All we see in the early game is pokes or all inns. Now im not gonna be too negative about this, i still like to watch sc2 atm. but i would love to see battles happening more often instead of just droning all the way to the late game and then just form a deathball.
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On August 10 2013 21:04 DarkSpectre wrote:
SC2 is dying but at a slow rate. I'm no longer enjoying playing nor watching SC2 games anymore. I'm sure that I'm in the majority.
This. For most people SC2 just isn't that fun to play and watch on a long term.
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Russian Federation823 Posts
On August 10 2013 22:17 Sejanus wrote:
* Results are too unpredictable. Even casters fail to predict correctly so often. Even TL writers fail so often. And they have so much experience. Game is too random. I wouldn't have enough sugar to sugarcoat this elephant in the room even if I wanted to.
* Games are too similar. Too boring. Too unpredictable (Yes it all is possible all at once. Think of a coin toss tournament). In basketball I can watch advantage building up. Every point matters, every cool play matters. I can watch the team building up their advantage and winning eventually. Or I can watch the other team starting catching up, and winning eventually. I see very clearly why winner is winner. What I cannot see in basketball is Lakers leading by 25 pts but then Kobe running into a "nice conclave" of Thunders, losing a ball, Durant throwing a stupid three pointer from his own basket, hitting, and it suddenly counts for 30 pts and Thunder wins by five. It's just stupid when majority of the game doesn't matter at all. If it doesn't matter I do not care to watch it, as simple as that. Can we fast forward to moments that do matter? And the biggest facepalm is when casters say "one mistake can cost a game" as if it's a good thing. One mistake should cost the game only when players are extremely equal, situation is extremely equal, etc. etc., not virtually in every game.
This is just my opinion, it's quite possible fixing all the things I listed won't help the game to become popular because other people may (dis)like different things. But that's why I can't imagine myself getting bored by basketball and stopping watching it for good. Which is already happening with SC2. And I've been watching basketball literally more than 10 times longer than SC2.
Unfortunately, these are the reasons why i don't really enjoy watching important games. The randomness kills any significance of this, as i safely can say that on some other day, Bogus 4 - 0 Maru for example.
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Russian Federation823 Posts
On August 10 2013 23:34 IronyDK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 23:29 kusto wrote:
Unfortunately, these are the reasons why i don't really enjoy watching important games. The randomness kills any significance of this, as i safely can say that on some other day, Bogus 4 - 0 Maru for example. So you dont think Maru just figured out how greedily Innovation plays and punished it? Rather that it was luck and a random win caused by the nature of SC2?
Yes, so next time Bogus prepares in such a way that he owns Maru 4 - 0. Completely possible in SC2.
For example, this is how all the PvX matchups work in the metagame. They all in until somebody figures them out and then they adjust with another all-in.
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On August 10 2013 21:04 DarkSpectre wrote:
SC2 is dying but at a slow rate. I'm no longer enjoying playing nor watching SC2 games anymore. I'm sure that I'm in the majority.
I've never really enjoyed playing that much, but always had enjoyed watching it. I'd been offracing a lot to try and make the game new and fun again, but I can't play more than a game without getting bored. I watched the Maru 4-0 and his comeback last night, and I could barely stay awake. I find myself more drawn to Dota2 in the last while.
I think the game needs a complete overhaul in order to grow. It's just not that fun, no amount of eSports support will help.
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My idea: run all tournaments at off-peak hours (like when WCS EU is on in NA) and dodge the hell out of LCS/DOTA tournaments to capture the people like me who will "watch" it on their other monitor and only pay attention when the casters start screaming.
edit: Food for thought, maybe having GOM charge $20+++ for VODs of any quality of the premier SC2 tournament (which also happens to be totally impractical to watch live for anyone who has a job or attends school outside of Korea) is not a great strategy for "growth."
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On August 10 2013 00:21 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 23:38 peidongyang wrote:On August 09 2013 23:31 [F_]aths wrote:On August 09 2013 23:23 Esoterikk wrote:
It's up to Blizzard to fix the game on a fundamental level, unfortunately Blizzard is the least likely to do anything because sc2 isn't their main source of income. They could "fix" anything. Realtime strategy still is not as attractive as a whole as other genres. One should rather look at the success of SC2: The first global esports RTS. Honestly for most players sc2 isn't an rts game. It only is at the top levels of play. Sc2 is a very mechanical and motor-memory trained game and herein lies the problem. It's not a strategy game for most or a game that attracts a larger audience due to the subtlety in appreciating high level play. There is no "noob" fan base like they had in bw or in Moba games. Lots of players will complain but to make sc2 more popular you need to dumb down the mechanics and up the excitement factors and flashy plays/strategies. If you look at all the memorable matches, they weren't your standard metagame games, they were either flashy, game breaking, or just awesomely cheesy or close. Dumb downed mechanics and flashy plays make the game more boring in my opinion.
LoL and Dota2 disagree.
No offense to those games (their just as difficult to master due to the team dynamic) but just because LoL and Dota are less mechanically limiting has not stopped their expansion.
Being harder to click is translating to less viewership.
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On August 10 2013 23:34 IronyDK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 23:29 kusto wrote:
Unfortunately, these are the reasons why i don't really enjoy watching important games. The randomness kills any significance of this, as i safely can say that on some other day, Bogus 4 - 0 Maru for example. So you dont think Maru just figured out how greedily Innovation plays and punished it? Rather that it was luck and a random win caused by the nature of SC2?
You still fail to get it. The reason behind Maru winning is not important for this purpose. Whatever, lets say Maru figured Innovation. I believe that was the case, by the way. It doesn't change a damn thing: the outcome of SC2 is too unpredictable. Maru owning Innovation wasn't an isolated case, and epic story of underdog winning. It was a regular coin toss result in SC2 world. I don't care much why the outcomes are so unpredictable, being it due to "figuring", or "random nature of SC2", or low skill ceiling, or bazillion other reasons or combination thereof.
Yes, so next time Bogus prepares in such a way that he owns Maru 4 - 0. Completely possible in SC2.
Exactly!
It may be fun to watch games like that once in a while, when they are exceptions. But it gets pretty boring pretty fast when every match becomes a rock/paper/scissors or a coin toss or how casters call it "mind games" *yawwn*
Dumb downed mechanics and flashy plays make the game more boring in my opinion.
SC 2 mechanics are not very complicated, mostly. Let's not pretend there's much complexity in injecting larvas. It's very hard to do right, but it's not complicated and it's not interesting to watch. It's a gimmicky mechanic and must go, in my opinion. Some others are better, but still SC2 doesn't have incredibly complex mechanics so there's not much dumbing down to do. What's important is making them interesting to play and to watch, not to dumb down or up.
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On August 10 2013 23:34 IronyDK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 23:29 kusto wrote:
Unfortunately, these are the reasons why i don't really enjoy watching important games. The randomness kills any significance of this, as i safely can say that on some other day, Bogus 4 - 0 Maru for example. So you dont think Maru just figured out how greedily Innovation plays and punished it? Rather that it was luck and a random win caused by the nature of SC2?
That was figured out a long, long time ago lmao.
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not a thread for bashing the game on empty arguements.
Nobody's bashing a game, you are fighting against windmills, imaginary opponents.
I am posting because I feel like it. If you can't understand what I am saying and why, the best course of action for you is to ignore me then. I enjoy talking to other people and I especially enjoy finding out it's not only me who dislikes the things I listed.
I dont see how its not an epic story of the underdog winning.
Fine, fine, go and enjoy the game then, good for you. We are talking what we don't like, if you do like the same things, it's very cool. People are different. Just that you do understand that your attempts to convince us we must like the same things you do are kinda pointless?
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Blizzard should make the balance and unit design more open source.
I'm honestly bored with the lack of creativity from their part.
I feel like they didn't grasp what made BW so awesome, and i fear the game really won't change even after the final expansion.
I hope they reserved all the crazy shit and upgrades for the last but I highly doubt about it.
They already screw the game with some of the existing units in my opinion.
Warp gate was a mistake for protoss, protoss has never been about mobility but about muscle. (Collossus and voidrays don't add much relevant things to the game play)
Swarm hosts, broodlord, roach and (what they did to the) hydra does not fit the zerg concept, and are very annoying to play with and against.
Hellions and mines are a sad way to avoid including the vulture into the game, Thor and marauder are boring units in my opinion, they are waaayyy too straight forward.
As long as they try to conserve those bad ideas, I don't expect much from this game. They introduced a lot of boring, and unidirectional units that won't produce interesting gameplay or strategies.
What is the concept behind the creation of the roach, the corruptor, the marauder, the voidray, the thor,... beside having A-move units that counters specific armor type ?
They even had the idea to add the warhound into that list :O
There probably won't be a great enthousiasm around a not-great game.
If Blizzard was more humble and listened more to the constructive criticism right from the start we wouldn't be here, it's not too late, but Blizz will have to really surprise me in order to correct the shot.
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Not sure about the growth, but imo something could be done to make SC2 more fun game. Imo, changing the standard bases from 8patches/2gas into something like 5-6 patches/1 rich gas would make the game more fun to watch, but obviously it would require pretty drastic balance changes in order to be successful.
In my eyes, the biggest flaw of SC2 was summed by Apollo in today's cast:
(after Grubby took the 4th base)
'He doesn't need to mine from those minerals until the main is depleted anyway.'
(And I am not saying if this isn't done SC2 will die or anything, because it won't. Just saying that SC2 probably could be a little bit better.)
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bumping this thread back up yo!
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The answer to growing StarCraft depends on where you want to grow it. People playing? People watching? Number of tournaments? A specific scene? Amount of money? Just 'growing StarCraft' is a vague and massive goal to aim for.
To grow StarCraft player base, you would need to frankly refocus the game elsewhere--1v1 RTS is an extremely small niche and SC2 has pretty exceptional size in that regard. Bigger FFAs/team games are the best way to go, but would likely require a much larger map size than anything currently available to pull off well--even at 256x256 maps are just too small to fit a good 8 player FFA or 2v2v2v2 or what have you. People have a lot more fun in these environments, hence why BGH was so popular back in the day. Customs of course offer lots of value too, but if you're talking purely StarCraft you really want people to grasp the core of what the game is and have fun with it.
To grow viewership? Part of that would be shifting the game specifically to avoid stagnance, doing production better, and seeing where viewer counts are lacking. Without sufficient information we do not know what the raw numbers mean--is it time zones? Is it the right players being there? Is it the lack of NA players meaning fewer NA viewers giving a damn? We can presume, but without information it is hard to tell what needs to be fixed. The one universal thing is of course to advertise and spread better. I don't see ads for big WCS events when I play other Blizzard games. I have no idea when most stuff is going on unless I peruse TL. New eyeballs may not be interested, but the more who know this thing exists, the more have that chance at least.
How to grow the amount of money in the scene? A good start would be to stop bleeding so much of it. I would question just how much money has gone to travel across StarCraft 2 as a whole--I can only imagine the numbers. That's all money that's going right out of the scene. We also have yet to properly explore any payment plans beyond the most basic and/or stupid. Heck for all we know a kickstarter or something of the like could land us a tournament on par with TI3--nobody knows because nobody's tried it. A PPV event could even work if done correctly for all we know. There's just so much stuff and so little people trying anything.
I could go on and on with this stuff, but honestly my voice doesn't mean that much at the end of the day. *shrug*
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1. bigger maps for big tournaments and Pro league
2. rebalance the entire game? meaning make useless units in Protoss and TErran useful again.
3. WCS? I did not like the idea from the start. I liked MLG with SC2.
4. More prize money for bigger tournaments
5. Make 2v2 matchups worth while again. maybe 3v3?
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On August 09 2013 23:23 Esoterikk wrote:
It's up to Blizzard to fix the game on a fundamental level, unfortunately Blizzard is the least likely to do anything because sc2 isn't their main source of income.
not as eloquent as needed but basically this. if sc2 was a better game i'd be all up in that shiz. I'm itching for RTS but I can't really fool myself into playing SC2 just because it's 'starcraft' and the only real competitive option.
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You could add a watch porno app to battle.net. Might improve popularity!
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ITT: People further the conspiracy that koreans are taking our money, and strategically putting themselves in foreign events to keep the money rolling to them.
edit: Here is an idea. If you don't want Koreans to win so much, why not train as hard as them and beat them? Its a known fact that Koreans train much harder and for longer periods of time then foreigners.
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On August 11 2013 03:22 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 23:23 Esoterikk wrote:
It's up to Blizzard to fix the game on a fundamental level, unfortunately Blizzard is the least likely to do anything because sc2 isn't their main source of income. not as eloquent as needed but basically this. if sc2 was a better game i'd be all up in that shiz. I'm itching for RTS but I can't really fool myself into playing SC2 just because it's 'starcraft' and the only real competitive option.
Yup, but income or not I don't think they really see it as something they care about. I highly doubt Valve or Riot went into their games thinking "this won't be big so lets half ass it!" No they found ways to monetize and grow and cultivate and put new, interesting features and content into their games. They spent time, money, and brain-power making it that much better, and with quality will come people willing to pay (...if money is all your after). Blizzard doesn't/hasn't done that at all. They have done nothing but prove 1 of 2 things; they don't care or they're having some serious time/managerial issues within the company and its development process. I'm going to vote a nice mix of both considering the amount we've seen from Blizzard in the content department over 3 years. Compare that to what Valve has done with DOTA2 in about 2 years.
At the very least you think Blizzard (which I think is just too much of a stubborn,old kook type of company, the kind that is just too big and too arrogant to get anything done) would see these good ideas and take note, attempt implementations of their own. But they don't, they hide in their offices, do a horrific job of communicating, and apparently get nothing done.
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On August 11 2013 03:35 Rumpus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 03:22 crms wrote:On August 09 2013 23:23 Esoterikk wrote:
It's up to Blizzard to fix the game on a fundamental level, unfortunately Blizzard is the least likely to do anything because sc2 isn't their main source of income. not as eloquent as needed but basically this. if sc2 was a better game i'd be all up in that shiz. I'm itching for RTS but I can't really fool myself into playing SC2 just because it's 'starcraft' and the only real competitive option. Yup, but income or not I don't think they really see it as something they care about. I highly doubt Valve or Riot went into their games thinking "this won't be big so lets half ass it!" No they found ways to monetize and grow and cultivate and put new, interesting features and content into their games. They spent time, money, and brain-power making it that much better, and with quality will come people willing to pay (...if money is all your after). Blizzard doesn't/hasn't done that at all. They have done nothing but prove 1 of 2 things; they don't care or they're having some serious time/managerial issues within the company and its development process. I'm going to vote a nice mix of both considering the amount we've seen from Blizzard in the content department over 3 years. Compare that to what Valve has done with DOTA2 in about 2 years. At the very least you think Blizzard (which I think is just too much of a stubborn,old kook type of company, the kind that is just too big and too arrogant to get anything done) would see these good ideas and take note, attempt implementations of their own. But they don't, they hide in their offices, do a horrific job of communicating, and apparently get nothing done.
Also LoL was also a freemium product where SC2 was never free and never available on LAN which could make it explode in PC cafes in Korea and China. I would have definetely made SC2 cheaper and or free with a freemium model. Let the competitive players with huge egos spend the money to upgrade and spend money for gold league/GM league access plus accessories .
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If more people are to watch the streams and follow the tournaments, more people have to play the game.
And this means that the game has to become more *noob* or casual friendly like snobists would say.
If the game should grow this is the only option. People must play and be able to enjoy the game.
If the game is just balanced out and focused on the high levels of play the casuals suffer and will turn their back on the game. This means fewer players, fewer people watching the streams, fewer companies sponsoring e sports, fewer tournaments and less money.
Look at games like LoL or Dota, they are relativ easy to learn and hard to master.
SC 2 is hard to learn and even harder to master. If you are a causal you might even enjoy playing with your friends vs the AI which is really nice in DOTA. If you play against an AI computer in SC 2 it can only win by cheating or doing unhuman micro tricks.
Blizzard should have invested in more possibilities for casuals to spend time in the game, to get achievements, skins, logos whatever. Or give more tech choices for the players from which they could choose or ban from the start of the game and what not. The possibilities are limitless, but Blizzard did not want to do anything new.
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Look at the international . TI2013 for Dota 2. look at the interest it has drawn because of the ridiculous prize pool that Valve is WILLING to invest to make the game grow. THat was a fundamental problem with Blizzard where they were NOT willing to invest in PRIZE money, create a super tournament that could last 1 month where the best SC2 players would battle like gladiators to gain the glory and money.
THe only real interest in these SC2 tournaments were when the prize money was at least 100K for the first place winner.
If Blizzard had guts and gumption they would make a super tournament where 200K to 500K would be placed to the first place winner in a super tournament once per year. Maybe make it a million. IT would be an open tournment where draws would be placed on qualifications based on continent.
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To clarify, the prize pool is so big because Valve enabled the community to grow the prize pool by buying compendiums.
SC2L seems to be doing something similar with D-Link (buy routers --> increase prize pool). I wonder if Blizzard has something similar in mind. It will probably always be on a smaller scale than DOTA2 because a F2P MOBA has a huge player pool to feed on (and also draws attention from the Steam store, because Valve).
e: That link is for reference. I'm not actually trying to sell stuff for Valve. I even added an SC2L link!
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On August 11 2013 03:40 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 03:35 Rumpus wrote:On August 11 2013 03:22 crms wrote:On August 09 2013 23:23 Esoterikk wrote:
It's up to Blizzard to fix the game on a fundamental level, unfortunately Blizzard is the least likely to do anything because sc2 isn't their main source of income. not as eloquent as needed but basically this. if sc2 was a better game i'd be all up in that shiz. I'm itching for RTS but I can't really fool myself into playing SC2 just because it's 'starcraft' and the only real competitive option. Yup, but income or not I don't think they really see it as something they care about. I highly doubt Valve or Riot went into their games thinking "this won't be big so lets half ass it!" No they found ways to monetize and grow and cultivate and put new, interesting features and content into their games. They spent time, money, and brain-power making it that much better, and with quality will come people willing to pay (...if money is all your after). Blizzard doesn't/hasn't done that at all. They have done nothing but prove 1 of 2 things; they don't care or they're having some serious time/managerial issues within the company and its development process. I'm going to vote a nice mix of both considering the amount we've seen from Blizzard in the content department over 3 years. Compare that to what Valve has done with DOTA2 in about 2 years. At the very least you think Blizzard (which I think is just too much of a stubborn,old kook type of company, the kind that is just too big and too arrogant to get anything done) would see these good ideas and take note, attempt implementations of their own. But they don't, they hide in their offices, do a horrific job of communicating, and apparently get nothing done. Also LoL was also a freemium product where SC2 was never free and never available on LAN which could make it explode in PC cafes in Korea and China. I would have definetely made SC2 cheaper and or free with a freemium model. Let the competitive players with huge egos spend the money to upgrade and spend money for gold league/GM league access plus accessories .
I saw a great idea early, whether it was in this thread or another about making multiplayer aspects free and campaign and the arcade a monetized service in some capacity. Either way free helps but there is a lot of context to that that I never see anyone explain and it always get it. I have no problem paying for a game, honestly I don't think really any game is worth $50-60 anymore but there are a lot of factors, but what does bother me is paying money for a game and then downloading a free one that has more features, events, and a gross amount of content and items/drop mechanics....pretty much all free.
If Blizzard had SC2 launch with new interesting features, smart and genuinely fun and good additions, I would drop money on it no problem, but they've taken years of development, and my money for nothing in comparison to what Valve has done with DOTA2. How do you justify that at all? I've said it a million times, make a quality product, make an interesting, good invest and people will buy it fairly regardless. But when you see Valve do DOTA2 and all they put into it, trying harder and harder to push limits. While Blizzard just...does nothing but destroy its own eSports image, let alone let the game rot away...it's sad.
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On August 11 2013 00:55 Sejanus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 23:34 IronyDK wrote:On August 10 2013 23:29 kusto wrote:
Unfortunately, these are the reasons why i don't really enjoy watching important games. The randomness kills any significance of this, as i safely can say that on some other day, Bogus 4 - 0 Maru for example. So you dont think Maru just figured out how greedily Innovation plays and punished it? Rather that it was luck and a random win caused by the nature of SC2? You still fail to get it. The reason behind Maru winning is not important for this purpose. Whatever, lets say Maru figured Innovation. I believe that was the case, by the way. It doesn't change a damn thing: the outcome of SC2 is too unpredictable. Maru owning Innovation wasn't an isolated case, and epic story of underdog winning. It was a regular coin toss result in SC2 world. I don't care much why the outcomes are so unpredictable, being it due to "figuring", or "random nature of SC2", or low skill ceiling, or bazillion other reasons or combination thereof. Show nested quote +
Yes, so next time Bogus prepares in such a way that he owns Maru 4 - 0. Completely possible in SC2.
Exactly! It may be fun to watch games like that once in a while, when they are exceptions. But it gets pretty boring pretty fast when every match becomes a rock/paper/scissors or a coin toss or how casters call it "mind games" *yawwn* Show nested quote +
Dumb downed mechanics and flashy plays make the game more boring in my opinion.
SC 2 mechanics are not very complicated, mostly. Let's not pretend there's much complexity in injecting larvas. It's very hard to do right, but it's not complicated and it's not interesting to watch. It's a gimmicky mechanic and must go, in my opinion. Some others are better, but still SC2 doesn't have incredibly complex mechanics so there's not much dumbing down to do. What's important is making them interesting to play and to watch, not to dumb down or up.
How is playing 4 different builds in 4 different maps equal translate to a cointoss scenario?
Maru attacked Innovation 4 different ways, Innovation was unable to stop his assault.
Maru attacked Rain 3 different ways, Rain was unable to stop the assault.
Rain was able to hold off Bomber's 3cc timing attacks, he was not able to hold off Maru's.
Maru beat both Rain and Innovation with heavy macro games, rush builds, and midgame timings. Rain and Innovation not being able to handle different strategies thrown at them is not the fault of the game.
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On August 11 2013 04:07 Holy_AT wrote:
If more people are to watch the streams and follow the tournaments, more people have to play the game.
And this means that the game has to become more *noob* or casual friendly like snobists would say.
BW wasn't noob friendly and it was a big hit in just one country instead of the international attention SC2 is getting!
....
I don't think that refuted your statement...
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On August 11 2013 04:56 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 00:55 Sejanus wrote:On August 10 2013 23:34 IronyDK wrote:On August 10 2013 23:29 kusto wrote:
Unfortunately, these are the reasons why i don't really enjoy watching important games. The randomness kills any significance of this, as i safely can say that on some other day, Bogus 4 - 0 Maru for example. So you dont think Maru just figured out how greedily Innovation plays and punished it? Rather that it was luck and a random win caused by the nature of SC2? You still fail to get it. The reason behind Maru winning is not important for this purpose. Whatever, lets say Maru figured Innovation. I believe that was the case, by the way. It doesn't change a damn thing: the outcome of SC2 is too unpredictable. Maru owning Innovation wasn't an isolated case, and epic story of underdog winning. It was a regular coin toss result in SC2 world. I don't care much why the outcomes are so unpredictable, being it due to "figuring", or "random nature of SC2", or low skill ceiling, or bazillion other reasons or combination thereof.
Yes, so next time Bogus prepares in such a way that he owns Maru 4 - 0. Completely possible in SC2.
Exactly! It may be fun to watch games like that once in a while, when they are exceptions. But it gets pretty boring pretty fast when every match becomes a rock/paper/scissors or a coin toss or how casters call it "mind games" *yawwn*
Dumb downed mechanics and flashy plays make the game more boring in my opinion.
SC 2 mechanics are not very complicated, mostly. Let's not pretend there's much complexity in injecting larvas. It's very hard to do right, but it's not complicated and it's not interesting to watch. It's a gimmicky mechanic and must go, in my opinion. Some others are better, but still SC2 doesn't have incredibly complex mechanics so there's not much dumbing down to do. What's important is making them interesting to play and to watch, not to dumb down or up. How is playing 4 different builds in 4 different maps equal translate to a cointoss scenario? Maru attacked Innovation 4 different ways, Innovation was unable to stop his assault. Maru attacked Rain 3 different ways, Rain was unable to stop the assault. Rain was able to hold off Bomber's 3cc timing attacks, he was not able to hold off Maru's. Maru beat both Rain and Innovation with heavy macro games, rush builds, and midgame timings. Rain and Innovation not being able to handle different strategies thrown at them is not the fault of the game.
You forget, Magpie. There is no strategy in this game. No tactics. No mindgames. Just mass army, fight, and a coin toss...
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On August 11 2013 04:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:07 Holy_AT wrote:
If more people are to watch the streams and follow the tournaments, more people have to play the game.
And this means that the game has to become more *noob* or casual friendly like snobists would say.
BW wasn't noob friendly and it was a big hit in just one country instead of the international attention SC2 is getting! .... I don't think that refuted your statement...
Yea Sc2 is infinitely bigger than BW ever was yet people seem to think the opposite.
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On August 10 2013 00:19 Foxxan wrote:
I believe the problem is not WCS or any tournament at all,
the problem is sc2
It has so many flaws and right now the game is not in a good shape, everymatchup involving protoss is garbage
for example
Unit composition vs unit composition. The battle can end in an instant and its over.
Zerg cant beat a limit armee of protoss without swarmhosts, thats utterly bad and boring in the long run
Wol was like that for three years but zerg had eventually buffed infestor+broodlord which was also utterly boring and protoss had a really tough time to take that armee head on, so it was reversed there
Blizzard decided to wait, to let someone figure it out even if the unit composition was a discgrace to the name of starcraft and rts in general
THe deathball syndrome, which makes it really hard to
1) Get units outside the deathball to do some small battle/harassment
2) Get many workers (65 is standard, some matchups go higher but in general never over 100)
Get 3base, saturat, now macro up
Thats the standard thing which is terrible terrible terrible
Zerg can stack up over 50+ larva on 3bases with 4hatcheries
Terran can sack the precious Scv (workers) for bigger armee then anyone else because of mule
So many faults, i can name more but cant come up right now
but these are enough
this
User was warned for this post
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I don´t get DotA if i watch it. They mix player names with Character names and somehow one team determines who will win after 40+ minutes of leveling vs NPCs. I don´t want to learn 1000 champions across Dota2/LoL/Hon.
Starcraft is a game of concentration, precision and skill. You have to determine what is good to do next. And be able to do it. In the OSL final today/yesterday Maru figured out how to beat Rain after two games. And thats the greatness in Starcraft2. The subtle little changes on the highest level that turn out to be amazing for those who know how hard it is.
In Dota even the biggest noob laughs at a "double kill" ot a gank.
SC2 had new features, and a new style that allows epic battle in high numbers CG-limit, (reasonable) more easy macro ( bulding hotkey etc.) With Chrono, inject and mules the games are faster, or dont rely on endless skirmishes.
WoL was really great, until the BL-Infestor dominated PvZ and Terran got nerfed away.
HotS was not what Blizzard could have done !
It was annoying to be honest. Mines/oracles got changed a lot.
But hey they fixed the boring 4gate vs 4gate PvPs and made Mech look more OP vs Zerg, but put the defiler back on.
But there is still Legacy of the Void coming and I hope Blizzard will make it complete, like BW completed sc1.
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On August 10 2013 00:19 Foxxan wrote:
I believe the problem is not WCS or any tournament at all,
the problem is sc2
I think it's a little of both. And it's not that SC2 is dying. It's just that there is so much potential that is missed, and that's disappointing.
In terms of games, the games are exciting and (mostly) balanced, but many are neither glamorous nor epic due to how SC2 works. There's a difference between:
- Build order + missed scout determines the game immediately.
- Build order + missed scout puts one side at a disadvantage, followed by several minutes of back-and-forth, tactical choices, and positioning, where one side can push their advantage while the other still has a chance to claw their way back.
The first is balanced and sometimes exciting. The latter is epic and makes for legendary battles.
The lack of glamour is a bit of a tragedy in a spectator sport. In a game, it's enough to be balanced, to make the math work. But for spectators, people need their idols, their epic battles, the glamour of rivalries between legends.
A lot of the glamour that people loved in BW and even early-mid WoL is not as evident in the current SC2 scene. Sometimes WCS feels like pros grinding WCS points like WoW dailies, rather than an epic league that culminates at Blizzcon. The talent is split up strategically between regions to maximum point grinding potential.
The last really glamorous tournament was probably MLG Dallas. Most of the top pros at that tournament haven't been seen at international tournaments since then. In more competitive regions, does grinding WCS points leave any time for tournaments? Many tournament regulars seem to be in WCS NA (least competitive region = more time for travel). Code S and OSL are so cut throat that travel during the league season can mean losing your place. I love the WCS games, but I can't help but wonder if WCS is a little too formulaic, as if someone has done the math but forgotten about the spectators.
With recent talk about Grubby & Moon, and TBLS, I realized that a lot of the WC3 and BW glamour comes from legends and rivalries between legends. Players who stayed on top long enough to be memorable and develop rivalries with similar players. It is difficult for this to happen in the current SC2 scene due to the constant turnover at the top due to:
- New expansion + patches
- WoL legends and potential legends falling off or retiring
- Region switching
- Large influx of talented players (KeSPA)
EU top 8 is completely different this season. Last season, Stephano vs. MVP drew a crowd. This season, they're both gone. KR looks like it might be stabilizing and growing new legends. Hopefully some of them stay on top long enough to develop rivalries. The ex-WoL, ex-BW, and ex-WC3 legends give the scene temporary glamour, but for the future perhaps time is the only solution.
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How is playing 4 different builds in 4 different maps equal translate to a cointoss scenario?
The one case of Maru vs Rain or Maru vs Innovation doesn't show anything by itself. Upsets/Underdog stories do happen everywhere for variety of reasons.
Coin toss is* SC 2 pro scene as a whole. You can hardly predict outcome of any match between two pros. No more than an outcome of a coin toss. Yes if we analyze a particular match we may see very different situations. "Figured out", "learned to outplay", "slumped", "tired after too many tournaments", "didn't learn hots yet" and so on, different valid reasons why someone lost/won even if he shouldn't have (according to predictions and perception of who's a better player). But as a whole it becomes a coin toss, you may never know who wins precisely because there are so many factors influencing it. I hope I made my point clear...
* Every time I say "is" I mean "feels like it is to me". I never did any statistics on it, right. But how the game feels is still very important from viewers perspective. If the game feels too boring/random virtually nobody gonna check statistics or listen to anybody's arguments why it really isn't boring/random, they will just go to watch something else.
But there is still Legacy of the Void coming and I hope Blizzard will make it complete, like BW completed sc1.
Precisely my hopes. Back in WoL I didn't even take the tournaments seriously, it was obviously a very large beta test of SC2, Blizzard had to feel how the game works in the wild before making it into something big, theres no way around it.
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4713 Posts
On August 11 2013 04:07 Holy_AT wrote:
If more people are to watch the streams and follow the tournaments, more people have to play the game.
And this means that the game has to become more *noob* or casual friendly like snobists would say.
If the game should grow this is the only option. People must play and be able to enjoy the game.
If the game is just balanced out and focused on the high levels of play the casuals suffer and will turn their back on the game. This means fewer players, fewer people watching the streams, fewer companies sponsoring e sports, fewer tournaments and less money.
Look at games like LoL or Dota, they are relativ easy to learn and hard to master.
SC 2 is hard to learn and even harder to master. If you are a causal you might even enjoy playing with your friends vs the AI which is really nice in DOTA. If you play against an AI computer in SC 2 it can only win by cheating or doing unhuman micro tricks.
Blizzard should have invested in more possibilities for casuals to spend time in the game, to get achievements, skins, logos whatever. Or give more tech choices for the players from which they could choose or ban from the start of the game and what not. The possibilities are limitless, but Blizzard did not want to do anything new.
I think you have it wrong, SC2 is easy to learn but hard to master still. The real problem is there aren't enough opportunities in SC2 to make "big plays" like in MoBAs, things that make you feel amazing when they succeed, it lacks in excitement because of that and it makes it immediately apparent to you that you need to put in a lot of hard work to pull off something great. SC2 lacks the Puck's, Bat riders, Pudges and Storm Spirits of DoTA or the Reavers, Spider Mines, Lurkers of BW.
Hell I'm willing to bet as much as you want that SC2 could be even harder then BW in terms of mechanics, but people would love it to death if they had enough exciting shit to keep them busy and make them feel great when they pull them off. That isn't the case, after a long, hard drawn out game of SC2 you sometimes feel more relieved then happy, it felt like a chore, like work, instead of giving you a huge buzz and make you feel excited, it just drains you. The design team focused too much on balance and too little on excitement and fun factor, they focused too much on ideas that are cool on paper from a design standpoint but are boring as shit in terms of actual gameplay. I'm going to go out on a limb and just say that perhaps SC2 just isn't exciting enough to attract as many viewers as we seek. Balance and fun aren't mutually exclusive it is still possible to have both, as BW proved, as DoTA is proving, its just a lot harder to achieve.
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1. Make the game free to play
2. Make the game free to play
3. Make the game free to play
The reason BW did so well in Korea and Asia is the same reason LoL is doing well, it was free (because everyone pirated it). Every other reason besides making the game free to play is much less important.
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On August 11 2013 04:07 Holy_AT wrote:
If more people are to watch the streams and follow the tournaments, more people have to play the game.
And this means that the game has to become more *noob* or casual friendly like snobists would say.
If the game should grow this is the only option. People must play and be able to enjoy the game.
If the game is just balanced out and focused on the high levels of play the casuals suffer and will turn their back on the game. This means fewer players, fewer people watching the streams, fewer companies sponsoring e sports, fewer tournaments and less money.
Look at games like LoL or Dota, they are relativ easy to learn and hard to master.
SC 2 is hard to learn and even harder to master. If you are a causal you might even enjoy playing with your friends vs the AI which is really nice in DOTA. If you play against an AI computer in SC 2 it can only win by cheating or doing unhuman micro tricks.
Blizzard should have invested in more possibilities for casuals to spend time in the game, to get achievements, skins, logos whatever. Or give more tech choices for the players from which they could choose or ban from the start of the game and what not. The possibilities are limitless, but Blizzard did not want to do anything new.
Yep ... basically correct.
Here is where Blizzard made a critical mistake:
Blizzard made the design decision to add unlimited unit selection and super tight unit movement to the game and claimed that this would make the game more "noob friendly". But is this true? Yes you can use your army easier and yes you only have one control group to worry about and yes the "smart group cast" allows you to use spellcasters and unit abilities while you have your whole army selected. But does this help the attacker AND the defender? Not really!
The problem is that the attacker will be looking at his units and the defender only might be looking at his units ... but because the army is concentrated in a small area the response time for the defender needs to be very very low. The classic example is "Banelings vs Marines". For lower level and new players the reaction time is longer and thus they are basically screwed by this general design decision from Blizzard.
A much more noob friendly design is shown in BW, where you can only have 12 units in a control group and the units are spread out while walking anywhere. The defender can prepare for defense by clumping up his army a bit tighter and as a consequence of these two the defender will not lose half his army because he wasnt looking for a second. Yes it is not as easy to control 3-4 control groups compared to just one, but if anyone claims that it is super hard or even "too hard" then he has never ever tried it. Its just something you get used to after a few games.
On August 11 2013 12:14 BuddhaMonk wrote:
1. Make the game free to play
2. Make the game free to play
3. Make the game free to play
The reason BW did so well in Korea and Asia is the same reason LoL is doing well, it was free (because everyone pirated it). Every other reason besides making the game free to play is much less important.
Very stupid ... because there is no way to make any money from SC as a free to play game ... and without money there is no game. If you cant afford a one-time-fee you shouldnt be playing computer games.
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if blizzard treated SC2 like Valve did Dota 2, maintained the core game and added some minor convenience features it would have been incredible. the failure of basic infrastructure (bnet 2.0) a major shift in game design in philosophy (bw->sc2) and the inability to adapt to the free2play game scene are the biggest failures of SC2.
People still debate to the death about how SC2 is a 'bad' game how BW was better, how the game design is bad etc., you don't hear that about Dota 2. Nobody in their right mind would want to play original Dota over Dota 2. Unfortunately that cannot ever be said for SC2. Next gen sequels should be improvements not 10 steps backwards.
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Why we might not be at the top:
1) Game is too hard (Steep learning curve, require multitasking/understanding/lots of time invested/outsourced tutorials for optimal builds/timings, very hard to play the game in a relaxed state)
2) Hard entry level (Up-front cost, Main focus being 1v1 thus very little social aspect or can't depend on others)
3) Spectating problems (Upper echelon of gaming is dominated by fairly emotionless Koreans (yes there are exceptions obv.), game needs some background knowledge of the game to understand what's happening, Sometimes need to wait 10-20 minutes before anything significant happens, Needs more spectating options)
4) WCS (Lower-mid tier tournaments effectively shut down, not properly done tournament in its initial stages)
5) Very minimal social aspects. (Chat channels have limited amounts of people and even more limited amount of relevant SC2 talks, interface/UI lack customizability, all major content is outsourced away from official Blizzard forums to team liquid)
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On August 11 2013 13:12 Rabiator wrote:
If you cant afford a one-time-fee you shouldnt be playing computer games.
It's not that they can't afford it. It's that it's a turn-off. I know a few friends (in their 20's) who only play free games. There are so many out there.
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Apart from all the obvious mismanagement of the esports scene from Blizzard, a massive issue for SC2 is very very poor game design.
- In Protoss matchups there are hardly any back and forth action. It's you win easily or lose easily.
- Most battles are just a big attack move battle that is over in 5 seconds. Typical SC2 game is nothing happens for 20 mins and then one attack move battle and the game is over. SC2 needs to dumb down the AI to let players differentiate themselves through micro.
- There is hardly any little skirmishes going around the map like in BW. Things like forcefield and concussive shells make poking around non viable because you will lose half your army.
- The game is too coin flippy, too many hard counters make build build order wins too common.
- A major root cause of all this is warp gate is so fundamentally flawed.
- Don't get me started on how bad and anti-social battle.net is
On a positive note, Terran vs Zerg is actually fun to watch, requires alot of micro and is very action packed (even though it is currently imbalanced).
I personally don't know how David Kim is still in a job because imo he is very very incompetent. At the end of the day if SC2 is not fun to watch then nothing will bring back the audience.
My message to Blizzard is to fix up the game design, in particularly Protoss a warp gate. Stop looking at balance numbers and look at how the games actually play out. Do qualitative analysis over quantitative ones because right now SC2 is not fun to watch at all.
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On August 11 2013 13:40 Highways wrote:
Apart from all the obvious mismanagement of the esports scene from Blizzard, a massive issue for SC2 is very very poor game design.
- In Protoss matchups there are hardly any back and forth action. It's you win easily or lose easily.
- Most battles are just a big attack move battle that is over in 5 seconds. Typical SC2 game is nothing happens for 20 mins and then one attack move battle and the game is over. SC2 needs to dumb down the AI to let players differentiate themselves through micro.
- There is hardly any little skirmishes going around the map like in BW. Things like forcefield and concussive shells make poking around non viable because you will lose half your army.
- The game is too coin flippy, too many hard counters make build build order wins too common.
- A major root cause of all this is warp gate is so fundamentally flawed.
- Don't get me started on how bad and anti-social battle.net is
On a positive note, Terran vs Zerg is actually fun to watch, requires alot of micro and is very action packed (even though it is currently imbalanced).
I personally don't know how David Kim is still in a job because imo he is very very incompetent. At the end of the day if SC2 is not fun to watch then nothing will bring back the audience.
My message to Blizzard is to fix up the game design, in particularly Protoss a warp gate. Stop looking at balance numbers and look at how the games actually play out. Do qualitative analysis over quantitative ones because right now SC2 is not fun to watch at all.
nobody is going to touch the subject of warp gate. just messing around with it will break the whole game. They should of fixed that during wol but they did not. you would have to wait for starcraft 3 for this change.
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On August 11 2013 13:39 julianto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 13:12 Rabiator wrote:
If you cant afford a one-time-fee you shouldnt be playing computer games. It's not that they can't afford it. It's that it's a turn-off. I know a few friends (in their 20's) who only play free games. There are so many out there.
No game is truly free ... you just have to know where the money comes from and basically all "free to play" games have optional ways to buy stuff which LoL does have too. There is nothing which could be marketed in SC2 however, because alternate skins on such tiny units are basically useless. So we are back to "pay a one-time-fee".
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On August 11 2013 14:17 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 13:39 julianto wrote:On August 11 2013 13:12 Rabiator wrote:
If you cant afford a one-time-fee you shouldnt be playing computer games. It's not that they can't afford it. It's that it's a turn-off. I know a few friends (in their 20's) who only play free games. There are so many out there. No game is truly free ... you just have to know where the money comes from and basically all "free to play" games have optional ways to buy stuff which LoL does have too. There is nothing which could be marketed in SC2 however, because alternate skins on such tiny units are basically useless. So we are back to "pay a one-time-fee".
By free, he means piracy.
This gaming generation has this idea that if all games were free/pirated that developers would still magically make money.
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On August 11 2013 14:17 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 13:39 julianto wrote:On August 11 2013 13:12 Rabiator wrote:
If you cant afford a one-time-fee you shouldnt be playing computer games. It's not that they can't afford it. It's that it's a turn-off. I know a few friends (in their 20's) who only play free games. There are so many out there. No game is truly free ... you just have to know where the money comes from and basically all "free to play" games have optional ways to buy stuff which LoL does have too. There is nothing which could be marketed in SC2 however, because alternate skins on such tiny units are basically useless. So we are back to "pay a one-time-fee".
dota 2 is truly free. The only things you can buy are cosmetics and doesn't change the game at all. Dota 2 is truly, the best game. Valve is the best company. Gabe Newell, our lord and saviour. Praise our lord and saviour, Gabe Newell!!
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On August 11 2013 13:45 askmc70 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 13:40 Highways wrote:
Apart from all the obvious mismanagement of the esports scene from Blizzard, a massive issue for SC2 is very very poor game design.
- In Protoss matchups there are hardly any back and forth action. It's you win easily or lose easily.
- Most battles are just a big attack move battle that is over in 5 seconds. Typical SC2 game is nothing happens for 20 mins and then one attack move battle and the game is over. SC2 needs to dumb down the AI to let players differentiate themselves through micro.
- There is hardly any little skirmishes going around the map like in BW. Things like forcefield and concussive shells make poking around non viable because you will lose half your army.
- The game is too coin flippy, too many hard counters make build build order wins too common.
- A major root cause of all this is warp gate is so fundamentally flawed.
- Don't get me started on how bad and anti-social battle.net is
On a positive note, Terran vs Zerg is actually fun to watch, requires alot of micro and is very action packed (even though it is currently imbalanced).
I personally don't know how David Kim is still in a job because imo he is very very incompetent. At the end of the day if SC2 is not fun to watch then nothing will bring back the audience.
My message to Blizzard is to fix up the game design, in particularly Protoss a warp gate. Stop looking at balance numbers and look at how the games actually play out. Do qualitative analysis over quantitative ones because right now SC2 is not fun to watch at all. nobody is going to touch the subject of warp gate. just messing around with it will break the whole game. They should of fixed that during wol but they did not. you would have to wait for starcraft 3 for this change.
I'm sure a large expansion (LotV) is eligible for a huge change in game mechanics, such as warp gates, economy, etc. Blizzard changed WC3 so much in TFT, HotS is just a big patch in comparison.
Anyway, has amateur tournaments been touched yet? After reading the comments in the recent Redbull thread, no one is interested in low level tournaments. Well, they were speaking of NA tournaments specifically, but that still seem to reflect how less people seem to care about skill level lower than a Code B Korean. There needs to be some kind of event that people who want to be competitive can look forward to and train for before they try and hit it big.
On August 11 2013 17:28 gosublade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 14:17 Rabiator wrote:On August 11 2013 13:39 julianto wrote:On August 11 2013 13:12 Rabiator wrote:
If you cant afford a one-time-fee you shouldnt be playing computer games. It's not that they can't afford it. It's that it's a turn-off. I know a few friends (in their 20's) who only play free games. There are so many out there. No game is truly free ... you just have to know where the money comes from and basically all "free to play" games have optional ways to buy stuff which LoL does have too. There is nothing which could be marketed in SC2 however, because alternate skins on such tiny units are basically useless. So we are back to "pay a one-time-fee". dota 2 is truly free. The only things you can buy are cosmetics and doesn't change the game at all. Dota 2 is truly, the best game. Valve is the best company. Gabe Newell, our lord and saviour. Praise our lord and saviour, Gabe Newell!!
Well, like he said, it's useless to having a bunch of varied skins for such small units. Maybe HUD skins? If we can buy in-game tickets to watch tournaments using the SC2 client, that would be perfect.
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You cant force viewers on a game that isnt great in the first place. Sc2 is good, but its not great. Like it needs to be if it wants any more viewers.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
Here's my opinion on Starcraft 2.
First of all, we all know that the game itself isn't "noob-friendly". It requires very good mechanics, knowledge and every Starcraft game is you putting 100% into it. Unless you go with matchmaking system and it puts you up against a Bronze league player, in which case, you stomp them, or have some fun with them.
The underlying problem is the problem of any Blizzard game, you have to know the game to understand what is being presented to you. What I mean by that is that all viewers (well, majority of them) want entertainment. And if you do not understand Starcraft II, you will get no entertainment at all. I realized this when I was watching a random SC2 tournament with my flatmate who doesn't play SC2. He found it dull and boring and didn't understand what was all the fuss about. When I tried to explain what Stephano did in that game, he couldn't understand. I, personally, get entertainment from very good Zergling control onto whatever levels beyond that, and we all know Stephano's ling control is one of the best.
Many say that SC2 is a boring game due to its design:
- macro up
- get an army
- stomp or be stomped
And it takes about 10 minutes to get to that point. Again, I find it entertaining that players hold off the old standard harassment with Marines/Hellions/Banshees with just a couple of Queens and Zerglings WHILE macroing up accordingly behind that. That's because I could never macro up accordingly behind it (lost way too many games because I queued up a bunch of Drones, thinking I was safe).
To argument that point, LoL isn't a fun game to watch either. "Macro" perspective? You see if the other team has 3 towers down and the other team has none, it's just a boring stompfest. Very rarely does LoL have major comebacks. "Combat" system? The fight is over faster than it is in SC2. Also, High Diamond Zerg here and Platinum Support in LoL, so I kinda got the grasp of both games.
The only real problem for me, as a player, is that I cannot play SC2 with my friends. Just yesterday, I told them on skype "man, wish you all played SC2", and my other friend said "I do, but you are better than me". And he doesn't have the patience to learn SC2 and I just realized, I cannot play this game with my friends. If I'm better than my friends, there's no point in playing SC2 unless they want me to teach them how to play.
Overall, SC2 cannot grow because it is not noob-friendly. It cannot expand to masses who just like to press buttons and kill stuff. And, quite frankly, that's why we enjoy this game, because it is too goddamn hard.
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It doesn't matter if the game is balanced, hard or easy to play, or even nice to watch.
What matters is people need to play the game and keep on playing the game.
The discussion needs to be about how do we make SC2 more popular because everything else falls into place depending on that.
Find a way to increase interest in the game. It might be hard to renew interest until LotV. Releasing Blizzard All-stars and requiring SC2 / HotS / LotV to play it might help a lot.
Make the game free to play. Find a way to make money off micro transactions. Increase the user-base as much as you can.
Keep the user-base. For God's sake, fix Bnet 0.2 so it's not a ghost town and return it to being the social networking experience that Bnet 1.0 was. Mark Zuckerberg said it best when detailing the importance of always being online and always being connected. If you log online and see your friends online, that is more incentive for you to stay online, and as long as the user is online, that is a chance he will play a game or bring more people online. It is a snowball you need to get rolling.
Do more for the casual gaming experience. Adding portraits and the leveling system was good. I knew a lot of people who kept playing as long as they did just to level up. Add more. Promote good custom games in a better way. I knew a lot of people who kept playing just for the custom games. Do more for team-games. Introduce new maps more frequently, optimize the game's programing so it's not such a piss-poor excuse for programing and aim to let more people with average computers play 3v3 and 4v4.
Add a reputation system so that good mannered players play other good mannered players and BM players get weeded out.
Make the game more fun to play and more addicting. Balance is not the first concern, it is the last concern. Just like in BW, if there are enough people playing the game, they might balance it for you. There are a lot of games that were never designed or intended to be competitive material and yet because of their popularity, they became a competitive game. Whenever you change anything, the first question you need to ask is does this make the game more fun? It's obvious with HotS's design, that question was not a high priority.
Once more people are playing / interested in the game, you can then start worrying about everything else.
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Atm local scenes in europe and america are beeing hamperd in their growth by former korean top players taking nearly all the top spots in wcs recently. I think manny fans like to see local heros and not neccesarely the highest lvl of play but as it is now local heros only have a verry small change to make meaningfull results.
So:make a sc world championship for national teams.
Each nation has a team of 2 (maybe 3) players wich can be decided upon in a national championship, and then thoose teams of 2 players play first for a regional championship (eg, europe, the whole of north and south america, korea, and south east pacific region). and then after that for a world championship.
Each player plays both the players of the other team wich gives 4 mini matches per team match, and then the result can be a draw for 1 point, a win for 2 points or a loss for 0 points, these teams play in groups of 4 countrys and then the top 2 goes into a knockout phase to determine the final winner, much like the world and european football championships are set up. I think such a championship can apeal to much more fans then the tournaments wich are run now.
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just an idea, do you not think sc2 is dying because you are not allowed to play your own game? Please hear me out and have a think about this before you go all fucking crazy.
Im a platinum player so of course i have no opinion on the game and the way it feels to me. Am i rite? i cant talk about balance, i cant talk about anything to do with the game at all as im just a scrub player who cannot simply have an opinion on it. Do you not think this is the reason the MAJORITY of players get tired of playing? They get to a rut in their play and ask for advice on how to beat it and all they get told is build more drones inject or whatever race macro mechanics you have to do? We lose players down to this. We all love Sc2 we all want to progress and some of us have a real desire to get to the masters, GM level. Ive been told on this site loads of time to stfu, ur too low to understand. So playing sc2 well gives you a special token in life? I dont understand what? everything? . . or just sc2? We know how the game feels to us, but the higher level player will just take a higher ground and claim all kinds of other shit . .when all we are doing is playing a game. It deters those new players and when they get this shit when they probably are asking for a legitimate thing to just ease their improvement road. do you get me with this i could talk about every last little nit pick here but over the last 10 years of me playing sc2 ive never felt so frustrated when people say . .well ur plat so inject, more drones, whatever. this of course is the problem but sometimes we just need to vent and what you get back is total negativity. when did anyone ever mention the things you did well.
EG, "welcome to the community statix, i see and understand what you are going through, you played well and i think you could have held the game better if instead of building these units, you built some more drones, it makes no sense at all does it? you have no units, but look at what you see, he just threw down a load of structures so he cant be building any units either, always try and send in those ovies just to popke to see if he is making more workers, buildings or balling up an army, you may not get the information all the time but if you work at it youll get a much better game sense over time. if you see buildings and upgrades going sat your bases, else build those units is a good place to start.Your game was good but remember all the pros practice the crap out of injecting and spending their money, you did well but if you ever see your money go over 500 just whack a hatch down as a reminder to not let it do it. Keep it up, add me as a friend and we can play together, glhf" - GM statix
Ive watched and played SC2 all my life(im 32) and tuned into thousands of games and i can honestly say, ive never been hyped to see many of them (i gotta bring out the idra fan boy in me, i always loved and was excited to see him play, especially when he lost his form and i wanted to see him get back up there) this is in disguise point two. I Dont think enough is done to build storylines in sc2 and noone seems to have any charisma. I literally am just watching a race vs race game. I think this is what lets the whole viewing of sc2 down. i mean back in the 2010-11, its was OMG Idra, Nestea, DRG, Hero, Teaja, people tuned in. i remember an MLG where they made you pay and they put idra on in the first free to watch game and it hit near 100k views! This is the shit we are now missing, love to hate characters but we know whay we love to hate them. Example, yesterday i watched maru and rain . . . so what i know they are both good players on the best teams in the world . . .did i care? no. Why? Becuase after thei game results over the last months i know nothing about them, and what can you say about them? Again let me remind you think before you go all crazy and look at the last 20 games you have seen. did you really watch them start to finish? I *watched* both the WCS AM and EU, but i was on the phone playing my own games of sc2 and just waiting for that engagement which would tip the game or set it up for a longer one. what did you know about the players, how interesting are they becuase im just a normal guy and i cant find any interesting things to say about anyone anymore, i just know that . .ye they are good theyve won or rounded top 8 in x tournie.
I dont find sc2 all that great to watch really. most of the time its just a balled up army and send it in. watching the hasuobs games yesterday actually made me drop what i was doing. But was it the game or something else? Yes the Casting made that game. They really did a good job of building up the drama of the build, i love apollo with his fake(or not... jk apollo i love ur casting when ur not slipping up with goof comments) drama voice of the builds we are seeing and what they may do with what they are doing.
My 3rd point now, Casting. Whats a real let down is casting. there are few i just cant stand when they open their mouths as what they say is just filler the entire game. Apollo, idra, artosis, and a few others explain the game and never seem to call the early gg for any of the players (maybe artosis does a little) they really need to explain whats happening, why they are getting beat and what they could possibly do to get out of it even though we all know its GG, build the drama, build the excitement. This doesnt happen and its a shame. when you put a bunch of play by play casters together and casters who are so self aware it gets annoying, TotalBiscuit, day9(yes Day9 hes knowledgeable no doubt but i find every word out of his mouth is trying to make you laugh and rally with him somehow), husky. Now of course this is how i feel and many, WAY MORE than not love these people but in many games its all "im so super excited for this match, talk really fast, over comment on something when something else is happening which is the real threat. These people dont see it unless the observers are making them see it. it takes it away from the whole thing to hear just random goof shite talk and obvious crap like . . and he puts up 3 more rax. . . Well why did he do that? What can we expect to see with this, these are pro players, he didnt just build 3 random rax? the problem is most of the casters dont understand whats going on. If this is improved then the story and excitement can be built.
going back to point one and to finish up why sc2 declines over time because ive gone way overboard here. the game is now defined by korean meta. this is how you HAVE to play. So what we get is the same game over and over and over again at the pro level. Serious look at the next 10 games you see. Its going to be one of 3 builds from each race against their respected opps and then most likely will come down to one big ball engagement. It isnt fun to watch. as much as i love starcraft and will never stop playing and supporting it, its boring really. how can i love it so much if i feel its boring? Its just the way it is. I get streams up at friends houses who dont play it and they say how boring it looks and how geeky and awkward some of the casting sounds. these are the viewers starcraft is hoping to attract and they are not coming becuase of simple reasons. Its boring and sounds uncool. We as a community however dont see it like that as we love the game and the people in it, all of it. as much as i dont like a lot of the casters they need to be there to create that love/hate thing.
the numbers for sc2 have to be lower than the other esport games . . the other games are free, they are more accessible to more people. what 8 - 20 year old living at home with no income wont download a great game which errrr . . MILLIONS of players play as well? Of course when they learn the game and realise there is a scene behind it . . they tune in, but like i said above are they really watching it . . doesnt matter they are now in that community. sc2 is 30 quid . . which is not a lot of money but its still 30 quid that little kid and his 10 mates dont have . . but they have the internet . . .they can get dota and lol for free and all play together with a game which after the knowledge base of the characters i suppose . . is 5 buttons... its just very simple and you are playing right away. My gf hates sc2, she hates me now becuase of sc2, i let her play now and again to see . . shes seen me play 10s of thousands of games and yes she cant play it AT ALL. however she got maxed warlock and mass respect from a massive guild in wow and was like a key raid player . . i didnt even fucking know how well she was respected where i was bounding from guild to guild not doing much and basically pugging everything . . i was jealous as fuck! (then i tried to join her guild and got called a noob cos my gear score was too low . . holy shit wet fish in the face . . my gf didnt know you could equip a wand for 65 levels . . no fucking joke!) Point here. Easy to play, easy to do, easy to feel acomplishment. Starcaft doesnt have it.
balance, now remember i have no opinion! You cant do it. Woah i fucking said it. how do you balance a game like this? do one thing it effects another do another it does something else. what i find difficult, my mate doesnt, so if i was to balance the game for me . .remove the terran race. i cant beat 50:50 - games fucked rite? No. then comes the other side to the cheese, a phrase noone used ever . . . dont balance and change shit it goes stale and people leave becuase of that. so you have people leacving cos they cant win or frustrated and then you have people leaving as it stays the same . . .You cant balance sc2. Odd statement makes no sense. we can only get to an acceptable level. Everyone hating david kim is odd to me. Who the fuck else is there to do the balance task? us? Me? you? wait . . i cant deal with widow mines . .so fuck it remove them? You can deal with widow mines but not with mass thor, leave mines nerf thor, terran player loves the mines but hates the fact he loses all this shit and cant replace fast enough . . increase speed of all units from structs . . holy shit what would ANY of those things do to the game . . the game cant be balanced. we just have to accept a state . . do you get me? i dont even get myself here cos im plat . . .i have no opinion on the balance and yes i dont care cos ill play every game i queue for.
EDIT, just read a few posts above . . holy shit youve said most of this already, i agree with everyone above and made http://imgur.com/fxGIsHtthis
what the fuck have i just wrote
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On August 11 2013 17:28 gosublade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 14:17 Rabiator wrote:On August 11 2013 13:39 julianto wrote:On August 11 2013 13:12 Rabiator wrote:
If you cant afford a one-time-fee you shouldnt be playing computer games. It's not that they can't afford it. It's that it's a turn-off. I know a few friends (in their 20's) who only play free games. There are so many out there. No game is truly free ... you just have to know where the money comes from and basically all "free to play" games have optional ways to buy stuff which LoL does have too. There is nothing which could be marketed in SC2 however, because alternate skins on such tiny units are basically useless. So we are back to "pay a one-time-fee". dota 2 is truly free. The only things you can buy are cosmetics and doesn't change the game at all. Dota 2 is truly, the best game. Valve is the best company. Gabe Newell, our lord and saviour. Praise our lord and saviour, Gabe Newell!!
I disagree, he's a colossal cunt who won't work on half life 3, because a wanker like him only cares about making money as he does with games like dota and cs:go.
User was temp banned for this post.
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My question is certainly stupid.
I was struggling through all the random hate that WCS gets because this tournament isn't region locked. And someone mentioned that we already have a "region locked" tournament, WCG.
Why are WCG qualifiers getting so little hype? It seems they do a lot of what people expect WCS to do. If these events were hyped and bigger, couldn't we keep WCS in the same state and get on with it?
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On August 12 2013 01:20 Nebuchad wrote:
My question is certainly stupid.
I was struggling through all the random hate that WCS gets because this tournament isn't region locked. And someone mentioned that we already have a "region locked" tournament, WCG.
Why are WCG qualifiers getting so little hype? It seems they do a lot of what people expect WCS to do. If these events were hyped and bigger, couldn't we keep WCS in the same state and get on with it?
The same people also whine about lower level of skill.
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i hope this doesn't become another argument over the current WCS non-region locked format T_T
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On August 12 2013 01:20 Nebuchad wrote:
My question is certainly stupid.
I was struggling through all the random hate that WCS gets because this tournament isn't region locked. And someone mentioned that we already have a "region locked" tournament, WCG.
Why are WCG qualifiers getting so little hype? It seems they do a lot of what people expect WCS to do. If these events were hyped and bigger, couldn't we keep WCS in the same state and get on with it?
WCG is a great tournament imho. You can to see players from every country, only 3 Koreans each time, and a fun atmosphere.
But as stated before me, the people complaining about WCS being too Korean complain that WCG isn't Korean enough.
I personally find it great that a player from India, South Africa, or any lesser known esport country can play in WCG. It doesnt matter if he loses all his games, he brings awareness to his country, his scene. This is true esport.
It s the same in football (soccer). Yes Barcelona is great and all but the World Cup is the most beautiful of every competition, because you can see epic games, and teams from every part of the world
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On August 12 2013 01:55 WGT-Baal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 01:20 Nebuchad wrote:
My question is certainly stupid.
I was struggling through all the random hate that WCS gets because this tournament isn't region locked. And someone mentioned that we already have a "region locked" tournament, WCG.
Why are WCG qualifiers getting so little hype? It seems they do a lot of what people expect WCS to do. If these events were hyped and bigger, couldn't we keep WCS in the same state and get on with it? WCG is a great tournament imho. You can to see players from every country, only 3 Koreans each time, and a fun atmosphere. But as stated before me, the people complaining about WCS being too Korean complain that WCG isn't Korean enough. I personally find it great that a player from India, South Africa, or any lesser known esport country can play in WCG. It doesnt matter if he loses all his games, he brings awareness to his country, his scene. This is true esport. It s the same in football (soccer). Yes Barcelona is great and all but the World Cup is the most beautiful of every competition, because you can see epic games, and teams from every part of the world
#2.
Sadly WCG is not as good as it was around 2004 anymore.
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I didnt want to start a thread about this since I feel this thread is kinda on the subject Im thinking of:
Here's the scenario: I've been playing SC2 for a few weeks now over the summer with my gf, she got the starter edition so she's stuck with T. We do have tons of fun.. but we are silver 2v2 and often, pretty much most games, get CRUSHED unless we rush. What I feel is that we do good, but she doesn't really want to learn the game, so we get stuck on 2 bases and just wait for them to attack, she says that she think its so much fun to play. But is it really when you always loose? how do I get her to want to learn more and watch more of it? I'm afraid that she one day will stop just since its too much to learn and she wants a fun time.
My view of SC2s problem: as many have stated before, I think the problem for many is the steep learning curve for the game, you HAVE to know what you need to do all the time, you must know timings, counters and all that stuff, which means that you must always scout, be aggressive and poke. People don't have the time, or feel that they want to learn everything about the game, since its too much too fast to take in, its hard to just play SC2 for a relaxed fun evening. Whilst in LOL or dota you can pick it up for a day, just lolz around and win on poking in over and over.. you kinda get rewarded quickly. Meanwhile in SC2, you have to spend time and effort in building up a strong army, upgrade, keep an eye on the map etc. Then you see it all get crushed within seconds.. that puts people off! we need some way to let people in more calmly! then it will raise in popularity!
But what do I know? Im just silver/gold player for the past 3 seasons. sorry if alot of this didn't really make sense, im in bed with my laptop and its late, but hope I got my point and concerns out!
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On August 13 2013 07:28 Lotias wrote:
I didnt want to start a thread about this since I feel this thread is kinda on the subject Im thinking of:
Here's the scenario: I've been playing SC2 for a few weeks now over the summer with my gf, she got the starter edition so she's stuck with T. We do have tons of fun.. but we are silver 2v2 and often, pretty much most games, get CRUSHED unless we rush. What I feel is that we do good, but she doesn't really want to learn the game, so we get stuck on 2 bases and just wait for them to attack, she says that she think its so much fun to play. But is it really when you always loose? how do I get her to want to learn more and watch more of it? I'm afraid that she one day will stop just since its too much to learn and she wants a fun time.
My view of SC2s problem: as many have stated before, I think the problem for many is the steep learning curve for the game, you HAVE to know what you need to do all the time, you must know timings, counters and all that stuff, which means that you must always scout, be aggressive and poke. People don't have the time, or feel that they want to learn everything about the game, since its too much too fast to take in, its hard to just play SC2 for a relaxed fun evening. Whilst in LOL or dota you can pick it up for a day, just lolz around and win on poking in over and over.. you kinda get rewarded quickly. Meanwhile in SC2, you have to spend time and effort in building up a strong army, upgrade, keep an eye on the map etc. Then you see it all get crushed within seconds.. that puts people off! we need some way to let people in more calmly! then it will raise in popularity!
But what do I know? Im just silver/gold player for the past 3 seasons. sorry if alot of this didn't really make sense, im in bed with my laptop and its late, but hope I got my point and concerns out!
Learn a timing attack.
The best way to learn to leave the base to set up a build that forces you to leave the base. Once you're comfortable attacking you will have the mental will to be willing to have more macro oriented builds and playstyles.
A lot of people on these forums says timings are low skill, don't listen. If you're problem is not knowing when to attack, learn a timing attack and practice attacking.
It can be very simple goals.
"Attack at 4 Thors" or "Attack when +2/+2 finishes" etc...
It gives you a goal to reach. "When we hit 150 supply we attack" quickly turns into "I need to get to 150 supply as fast as possible" which quickly goes into "When I have ____, they only have _____ so I should attack at less than/greater than 150 supply instead of at 150," etc....
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On August 10 2013 00:20 Chaplin wrote:
...
If there is a tournament, I don't want to search Liquipedia or such to know what format it uses and which players can participate how and most of all I don't want it to end with just winning some money...
Said every person EVER when Polt won WCS America without even a trophy. What a terrible way to end such an amazing season of WCS America. So abrupt..
Anyway, I don't really feel like there's much I can say that would contribute to this thread. I just know that I hopped on youtube (which has a MUCH larger viewership overall than twitch) and was bored of the channels I was subbed to. Saw Totalbiscuit's SC2 youtube account in the recommended channels on the right and said "Why not check it out".. Looking through a bunch of "Ro#" and "Bo#" titled videos, I was trying to figure out what one was actually closer to finals since it was obviously a tournament (Shoutcraft America) of some sort. Finally found the videos of the finals, and recognized one of the player's team/clan tags: ROOT Gaming. I thought Kane was a straight-up douche to State when they were being interviewed at the beginning interviews, and so began my first Starcraft experience.
+ Show Spoiler +
I remember TB saying how players can sometimes end up fighting after games like that or something, thinking he was serious. It obviously seemed very competitive, and I was hooked instantly on this strange game I've heard seldom about from anyone, including on it's official release (Diablo 3 was the same way sorta, except people knew the game sucked). Watched all of the finals between State and Kane, Kane winning with 1 map lost or something. Felt pretty bad for State due to how confident and douchey Kane seemed to be. (31-2 vs Kane on ladder or something? Rly you gotta throw that in before you play..) Anyway.. Later on in the week/that day maybe, I ended up going to twitch because I was still bored (first time there) and saw Starcraft w/lots of viewers. Clicked on the biggest channel and voila. WCS America Up and Downs Season 1 2013. Haven't stopped watching SC2 for more than a few hours since.
Youtube. That's where I found Starcraft and it's community. There's little talk about Starcraft in any game, though fans exist in every single one of those games' communities. Spread the word, spread the love. I've come from a dying game to a game that's said to be dying (that being SC2). You don't know dead until the game is no longer walking on two feet. In fact, the game isn't dying until it's legs are blown off and it's hanging off the Grand Canyon's edge with one arm. If you have nothing good to say about the game, it should die (and that's why said game 1 died). If you've got passion for SC2 and you really think it's still worth watching on some level, or playing for that matter, you should tell everyone you know about it.
Based off of youtube/forum/etc communities of many other games I've played, the developers are not what make a game successful. It's the talk behind it from the fans and the people who have experienced the greatness it beholds. Sometimes it's not very strong, but there's always a chance at a slow build-up. (see: small youtube channels getting bigger with time via LIKES, FAVORITES, VIEWERSHIP, and TELLING PEOPLE ABOUT IT)
Starcraft 2 is far from being small, so I don't see how it'd be impossible for it to grow as well. Just tell people about it everywhere you can and hope that they enjoy themselves. It's the community that spreads the word, not flashy tournaments, spammy advertising, or anything else. If people are recommended it, they will check it out.
Edit: 4:20 am yolo'd this post, sorry if it seems a bit long. I just had a lot to say.
Edit2: Since it probably isn't obvious enough, I'll say that youtube is a very strong free asset to have. You can even get paid to produce good content there, just like twitch. The number of people who visit that site is ungodly. If you want to make SC2 more popular, make some good content for the boys over there and hope you get recommended/related videos on some other games/etc. I know Husky and Day9 have a ton of subs, but the more people that throw into the mix with interesting stuff, the better. Seriously, do not underestimate the free PR and advertising that youtube provides.
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I personally think the game started to get boring once maps got bigger.
I know, I know, many people asked for bigger maps, me including. I'm not talking about Metalopolis close positions or Steppes of War. What I'm trying to say is back when maps were smaller, the games were shorter, but also most of the times, much more intense.
As the maps got bigger, all the progamers do is just expand, macro-up, get an army, attack and hope to win. Terran matchups are somewhat different than this, as they utilize harrasment from multiple locations etc. but still, it doesn't really change the whole picture.
I remember watching Sen vs. Boxer in TSL on Metalopolis, that was such an intense and fun game.
Oh, and for those talking about steep learning curve in Sc2, try Dota. 1600 hours in and I still feel like a complete noob sometimes.
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I see a lot of brilliant suggestions in this thread but everything we want needs to be implemented on blizzard's side of the fence. 3 years of playing this game, I noticed that blizzard is waaaaay to slow in doing decisions to change the game.
somebody already said: free to play... I think that's it.
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1vs1 based game can NOT be surpass the number of users than Teamplay based games even if SC2 change to free to play
Quite a lot of people seems to think that why BW did success in korea is no need purchase to play at the PC cafe so it's free to play
and you might to think most koreans have been play BW for 1vs1 mostly since BW was hugely popular in the e-sports
BUT you totally wrong, as i posted before koreans have been play for teamplay with friends mostly at the PC cafe
also quite many of koreans have been play BW for teamplay at home
that's why most koreans understand and familiar to accept BW friendly.
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On August 13 2013 22:04 evaniss wrote:
1vs1 based game can NOT be surpass the number of users than Teamplay based games even if SC2 change to free to play
Quite a lot of people seems to think that why BW did success in korea is no need purchase to play at the PC cafe so it's free to play
and you might to think most koreans have been play BW for 1vs1 mostly since BW was hugely popular in the e-sports
BUT you totally wrong, as i posted before koreans have been play for teamplay with friends mostly at the PC cafe
also quite many of koreans have been play BW for teamplay at home
that's why most koreans understand and familiar to accept BW friendly.
u can make teamgames in sc2 also... so i think especially for the youth in korea wich doesnt want to pay for all the games the f2p model would give us some more players...
sure sc2´s main base is 1v1 but i met in EU and US servers alot of those low level players wich seems to not care about 1v1 and play alot of teamgames (2v2,3v3,4v4, ffa...)
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On August 13 2013 23:05 KOtical wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 22:04 evaniss wrote:
1vs1 based game can NOT be surpass the number of users than Teamplay based games even if SC2 change to free to play
Quite a lot of people seems to think that why BW did success in korea is no need purchase to play at the PC cafe so it's free to play
and you might to think most koreans have been play BW for 1vs1 mostly since BW was hugely popular in the e-sports
BUT you totally wrong, as i posted before koreans have been play for teamplay with friends mostly at the PC cafe
also quite many of koreans have been play BW for teamplay at home
that's why most koreans understand and familiar to accept BW friendly. u can make teamgames in sc2 also... so i think especially for the youth in korea wich doesnt want to pay for all the games the f2p model would give us some more players... sure sc2´s main base is 1v1 but i met in EU and US servers alot of those low level players wich seems to not care about 1v1 and play alot of teamgames (2v2,3v3,4v4, ffa...)
I've said it a thousand times, but the team aspect of the game needs to be supported! It is simply more fun to game with friends than it is to sit down and ladder by yourself. This is especially true given the aging gaming population- people who were kids when gaming first started taking off are now adults, with jobs and responsibilities. When we have the time to game, we want it to be social and fun, not stressful and solitary. I pretty much only play games these days when my friends are on- I even hate solo queuing MOBAs.
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The entire WCS should be offline. As in a designated city in America has challenger league, and premier league offline as well as qualifiers. That way only people in that city will be able to try out and if it is to expensive to fly back and forth from Korea than it will make Koreans more wary to try out. Same for Europe as well.
In addition, prize money should be taken from the 17th through 32 (like 250$ each) and evenly distributed in the challenger league. This will do 3 things,
1. Make it so that falling out of Premier league is not a huge deal.
2. allow more of a motivation for new players to try and break in to the challenger league since there is at least some money there.
3. Give more money to lower level players as motivation to try and get more in premier.
I mean who wants to work hard and spend hours practicing and making it through the qualifiers just to end up getting 25 WCS points that won't even count for anything since they are not good enough to get enough points to qualify for the season finals. It is stuipid and a BS way to give out something.
I would much rather see this than what they have now.
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On August 13 2013 23:05 KOtical wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 22:04 evaniss wrote:
1vs1 based game can NOT be surpass the number of users than Teamplay based games even if SC2 change to free to play
Quite a lot of people seems to think that why BW did success in korea is no need purchase to play at the PC cafe so it's free to play
and you might to think most koreans have been play BW for 1vs1 mostly since BW was hugely popular in the e-sports
BUT you totally wrong, as i posted before koreans have been play for teamplay with friends mostly at the PC cafe
also quite many of koreans have been play BW for teamplay at home
that's why most koreans understand and familiar to accept BW friendly. u can make teamgames in sc2 also... so i think especially for the youth in korea wich doesnt want to pay for all the games the f2p model would give us some more players... sure sc2´s main base is 1v1 but i met in EU and US servers alot of those low level players wich seems to not care about 1v1 and play alot of teamgames (2v2,3v3,4v4, ffa...)
BW was mainly team games, fastest map, legends, lurker defense, etc... only a select few were iccup grinders.
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SC2 never has been more fun than sc:bw to me. Too fast tech up, too fast reaching 200/200, too fast battles, too few decisions/actions that decide about win or lose (hellow widow mine shot), too many units that try to be special (hello oracle), too strong and easy to execute spells (bambambam I forcefielded all your army, I sniped all your army, I fungaled all your army, I emped all your army, I psied all your army, etc.).
Units like Colossus don't help it all that much. Too strong vs most ground units, too easy counterable from other units (vikings, viper pull insant death).
examples:
"I made perfect forcefields, sry you are dead"
"I missed a forcefield, sry I am dead"
"fuck I used psi 1 second too late and now am emped, sry you instant win"
"I fungled all your army, sry its gg you have no choice"
etc.
The way to make the game more interesting is to smooth things out. Why do perfect forcefields have to crush everything? Why does misuse of forcefields lead to instant death? Why do single mine shots can kill 10+ banelings?
Where is the strategy?
Answer: it isnt there
example: TvZ
There are no real decisions being made by the players. Its pure stupid mechanics. Its stupidly doing every single game the same thigns with some very minor variations. T goes bio+mine every game and drops/pushes always the same way. Every game is the same. No reason to watch it more than 50 times to see what it is about. Z has to do ling/bling vs the bio and muta vs the drops.
Things are not getting better without fundamental changes of race/unit/balance design. The chance of changing anything at the release of hots was given away. FF still decide within seconds about success or defeat, and the other stuff too.
I for myself have hope that it will get better but not in the near future. I play since days of WC2, SC1 and BW. I see friends stopping to play SC2 at all. Some other switch back to broodwar. Others just dont play at all or play other games. I dont enjoy the game anymore myself that much. Z (my sc2 main race) has become something like a 0 fun to play race for me. No room for a bit of individual play or any strategical decisions. Every game is more like a 100% memorized and copied build order with only few possible adaptions, new stuff that is introduced by blizzard made things worse instead of fixing it (mothership core allows no early aggression vs P, mines don't allow early aggression vs T, mines don't allow a comeback vs T when being behind etc.).
I also lose interest to watch streams. No matter if innovation vs soulkey or life vs sjow, in the end it is ZvT and about 95% the same that repeats again and again in every single game besides the also quite boring do or die stuff.
To help starcraft, these things should be adressed. There are simply more fun things to play than SC2 these days. Especially if you are not out for being a progamer and earning your money with SC2, stuff is different. I don't see why my 15 minute game of Protoss vs X solely depends on a few forcefields and if I miss that I instantly lose the game and if the opponent commits too much vs my forcefields and I do them well I instantly win the game. Why would casual players bother with this kind of stuff? Watching might be more fun for some time but not after things only keep to repeat exactly the same way in almost every game. In BW e.g. there were several openers for every race that the opponent had to find out and react on.
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On August 14 2013 01:34 LSN wrote:
SC2 never has been more fun than sc:bw to me. Too fast tech up, too fast reaching 200/200, too fast battles, too few decisions/actions that decide about win or lose (hellow widow mine shot), too many units that try to be special (hello oracle), too strong and easy to execute spells (bambambam I forcefielded all your army, I sniped all your army, I fungaled all your army, I emped all your army, I psied all your army, etc.).
Units like Colossus don't help it all that much. Too strong vs most ground units, too easy counterable from other units (vikings, viper pull insant death).
examples:
"I made perfect forcefields, sry you are dead"
"I missed a forcefield, sry I am dead"
"fuck I used psi 1 second too late and now am emped, sry you instant win"
"I fungled all your army, sry its gg you have no choice"
etc.
The way to make the game more interesting is to smooth things out. Why do perfect forcefields have to crush everything? Why does misuse of forcefields lead to instant death? Why do single mine shots can kill 10+ banelings?
Where is the strategy?
Answer: it isnt there
example: TvZ
There are no real decisions being made by the players. Its pure stupid mechanics. Its stupidly doing every single game the same thigns with some very minor variations. T goes bio+mine every game and drops/pushes always the same way. Every game is the same. No reason to watch it more than 50 times to see what it is about. Z has to do ling/bling vs the bio and muta vs the drops.
Things are not getting better without fundamental changes of race/unit/balance design. The chance of changing anything at the release of hots was given away. FF still decide within seconds about success or defeat, and the other stuff too.
I for myself have hope that it will get better but not in the near future. I play since days of WC2, SC1 and BW. I see friends stopping to play SC2 at all. Some other switch back to broodwar. Others just dont play at all or play other games. I dont enjoy the game anymore myself that much. Z (my sc2 main race) has become something like a 0 fun to play race for me. No room for a bit of individual play or any strategical decisions. Every game is more like a 100% memorized and copied build order with only few possible adaptions, new stuff that is introduced by blizzard made things worse instead of fixing it (mothership core allows no early aggression vs P, mines don't allow early aggression vs T, mines don't allow a comeback vs T when being behind etc.).
I also lose interest to watch streams. No matter if innovation vs soulkey or life vs sjow, in the end it is ZvT and about 95% the same that repeats again and again in every single game besides the also quite boring do or die stuff.
To help starcraft, these things should be adressed. There are simply more fun things to play than SC2 these days. Especially if you are not out for being a progamer and earning your money with SC2, stuff is different. I don't see why my 15 minute game of Protoss vs X solely depends on a few forcefields and if I miss that I instantly lose the game and if the opponent commits too much vs my forcefields and I do them well I instantly win the game. Why would casual players bother with this kind of stuff? Watching might be more fun for some time but not after things only keep to repeat exactly the same way in almost every game. In BW e.g. there were several openers for every race that the opponent had to find out and react on.
This. BTW Hi lonic.
Last time i told you this
Watching might be more fun for some time but not after things only keep to repeat exactly the same way in almost every game. In BW e.g. there were several openers for every race that the opponent had to find out and react on.
you told me iam wrong...
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What kind of changes are needed if we want to see multiple 200v200 battles in a single game?
Increase mineral/geyser size?
Even bigger maps?
SC2 need to try something drastic.
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On August 14 2013 01:34 LSN wrote:
SC2 never has been more fun than sc:bw to me. Too fast tech up, too fast reaching 200/200, too fast battles, too few decisions/actions that decide about win or lose (hellow widow mine shot), too many units that try to be special (hello oracle), too strong and easy to execute spells (bambambam I forcefielded all your army, I sniped all your army, I fungaled all your army, I emped all your army, I psied all your army, etc.).
Units like Colossus don't help it all that much. Too strong vs most ground units, too easy counterable from other units (vikings, viper pull insant death).
examples:
"I made perfect forcefields, sry you are dead"
"I missed a forcefield, sry I am dead"
"fuck I used psi 1 second too late and now am emped, sry you instant win"
"I fungled all your army, sry its gg you have no choice"
etc.
The way to make the game more interesting is to smooth things out. Why do perfect forcefields have to crush everything? Why does misuse of forcefields lead to instant death? Why do single mine shots can kill 10+ banelings?
Where is the strategy?
Answer: it isnt there
example: TvZ
There are no real decisions being made by the players. Its pure stupid mechanics. Its stupidly doing every single game the same thigns with some very minor variations. T goes bio+mine every game and drops/pushes always the same way. Every game is the same. No reason to watch it more than 50 times to see what it is about. Z has to do ling/bling vs the bio and muta vs the drops.
Things are not getting better without fundamental changes of race/unit/balance design. The chance of changing anything at the release of hots was given away. FF still decide within seconds about success or defeat, and the other stuff too.
I for myself have hope that it will get better but not in the near future. I play since days of WC2, SC1 and BW. I see friends stopping to play SC2 at all. Some other switch back to broodwar. Others just dont play at all or play other games. I dont enjoy the game anymore myself that much. Z (my sc2 main race) has become something like a 0 fun to play race for me. No room for a bit of individual play or any strategical decisions. Every game is more like a 100% memorized and copied build order with only few possible adaptions, new stuff that is introduced by blizzard made things worse instead of fixing it (mothership core allows no early aggression vs P, mines don't allow early aggression vs T, mines don't allow a comeback vs T when being behind etc.).
I also lose interest to watch streams. No matter if innovation vs soulkey or life vs sjow, in the end it is ZvT and about 95% the same that repeats again and again in every single game besides the also quite boring do or die stuff.
To help starcraft, these things should be adressed. There are simply more fun things to play than SC2 these days. Especially if you are not out for being a progamer and earning your money with SC2, stuff is different. I don't see why my 15 minute game of Protoss vs X solely depends on a few forcefields and if I miss that I instantly lose the game and if the opponent commits too much vs my forcefields and I do them well I instantly win the game. Why would casual players bother with this kind of stuff? Watching might be more fun for some time but not after things only keep to repeat exactly the same way in almost every game. In BW e.g. there were several openers for every race that the opponent had to find out and react on.
BW had very similar problems btw...
Walked in range of tank line? Half army is dead.
Didn't see the shuttle? 20 units die to Reavers.
Noticed one mine pop up without an observer? The other 12 mines kill your front line.
Forgot to scan? lol lurkers kill 30 marines.
Less than 30 turrets? lol 11 Mutalisks destroy your base.
BW very much had the same insta-gib scenarios as SC2 has.
The difference comes from difficulty of execution. Landing two storms in a mineral line was *HARD* in BW. Getting your spidermines to kill dragoons instead of getting dragged by zealots? HARD AS HELL!
Lurker Hold? Hard.
Muta ball? Hard.
etc...
So when you died to a Reaver Drop--you didn't curse the screen because when you yourself tried to do a reaver drop you realized it was so hard that it better be worth the output. And watching a game where all these difficult maneuvers happened all the time was breathtaking.
MKP vs Kyrix was a GREAT moment in SC2 because people saw something that was assumed was too difficult to do. Now everyone does it, so why is it impressive?
Parting Storms was breathtaking until even foreigners do it regularly.
Why were Jangi storms good? Because there were maybe 2-3 other people in the world who could do it.
Why were Bisu probes good? Because only Bisu had the skill to do it.
Even foreigners can land good forcefields. Even foreigners can micro widow mines while doing a hellbat drop.
BW had exclusivity at the cost of an awful foreign scene. SC2 has a great foreign scene, at the cost of exclusivity. MKP was amazing, until everyone could stutter stepped and marine split like he did. Losira was a godsend--until his APM efficiency became the minimum standard required to play the game.
Its a give and take. Without exclusivity, we won't have Terrorist Vultures, Zero Queens, Flash Turrets, and Jaedong Mutalisks. With exclusivity, we will have a greatly shrunk down foreign scene.
Take your pick.
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On August 14 2013 01:57 forumtext wrote:
What kind of changes are needed if we want to see multiple 200v200 battles in a single game?
Increase mineral/geyser size?
Even bigger maps?
SC2 need to try something drastic.
Slower game speed and more time between attack animations.
The fight has to be slow enough for players to partake in, and the attacks need to be stuttered enough that you can micro during the in-between moments.
Also, larger collision sizes as well as harsher collision punishment. Bisu could micro his probes vs lings because when the Ling ran into the probe there was a big enough delay before the first attack for the probe to get away. Larger collision sizes also makes it easier to select a group of units instead of being forced to just box the whole group.
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In some parts true but there were hardly any 2 second battles. Battles last much longer in bw (in the most cases). Which leads to a more positional and strategic gameplay which is much more enjoyable to watch (atleast for me).
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On August 14 2013 02:04 TaShadan wrote:
In some parts true but there were hardly any 2 second battles. Battles last much longer in bw (in the most cases). Which leads to a more positional and strategic gameplay which is much more enjoyable to watch (atleast for me).
I'm assuming this was in response to me
I wasn't disagreeing, simply clarifying.
It's not the fact that there are unfair maneuvers in SC2, the problem is that those maneuvers never feel *earned* by the player. Too often it feels like "the thing everyone does."
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On August 14 2013 02:07 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 02:04 TaShadan wrote:
In some parts true but there were hardly any 2 second battles. Battles last much longer in bw (in the most cases). Which leads to a more positional and strategic gameplay which is much more enjoyable to watch (atleast for me). I'm assuming this was in response to me I wasn't disagreeing, simply clarifying. It's not the fact that there are unfair maneuvers in SC2, the problem is that those maneuvers never feel *earned* by the player. Too often it feels like "the thing everyone does."
True. The other problems (in my oppinion) are Clumping, no high ground bonus and too high dps.
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hi tash, I knew and think I also told you that you were right but to give sc2 some time and another chance. And I am also refering to you and others that I talked with to build my opinion on in this post.
Still I see that blizzard is continuing to go the wrong path these days with hots. Instead of addressing severe game design issues like e.g. forcefields they are completely exluding it from their thoughts. Blizzard more and more is driven not to dissatisfy a certain group of players instead of clearly going for the issues. What they do is limiting the game experience more (mines, MSC, swarmhosts, oracle, viper) instead of widening it.
@magpie
I agree.
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My Points
* I Believe that Blizzard could introduce one or two more Races to get some dynamism, new tactics and strategies.
* Reduce "The death ball problem", i really don't know how to change this but here is an idea: the number of selected units could be limited, so you will need to control different groups of units, always.
* Have a big tournament like the WCS 2012, not season tournaments like this year.
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On August 13 2013 17:44 Bleak wrote:
I personally think the game started to get boring once maps got bigger.
I know, I know, many people asked for bigger maps, me including. I'm not talking about Metalopolis close positions or Steppes of War. What I'm trying to say is back when maps were smaller, the games were shorter, but also most of the times, much more intense.
As the maps got bigger, all the progamers do is just expand, macro-up, get an army, attack and hope to win. Terran matchups are somewhat different than this, as they utilize harrasment from multiple locations etc. but still, it doesn't really change the whole picture.
I remember watching Sen vs. Boxer in TSL on Metalopolis, that was such an intense and fun game.
Oh, and for those talking about steep learning curve in Sc2, try Dota. 1600 hours in and I still feel like a complete noob sometimes.
The map thing was big to me as well. Of all the times Blizzard did decide to listen to the community I thought they should have held their ground more on that one. SC2 was designed for the smaller maps, even if not perfectly balanced I think the idea was(and you can see this with the mechanics and economy) that the maps would be smaller, you could do more on less bases, and the action would be more constant from the start and tier 3 units would be tough to reach. But fans didn't like that. They didn't like fast games, bunker rushes, etc. They said they wanted macro games. And now look at what we have. 3 base turtle with the same unit compositions each game. The position TvT tank that was fun to watch is done because the maps are to big to control with tanks.
Then to compensate because they made maps bigger they end up buffing things like pheonix speed, muta speed, and boost for medivacs. Those units would have been fine in their old form on smaller maps.
I started to think of some of the games from way back on maps where you were fighting over 1 gold expansion. Where getting and securing your expansion as a zerg was huge. Right now, I don't know why you even start with 5 workers and 1 base. Why not just start the game giving everyone 3 bases and 40 workers? It seems like 90% that is where we end up anyway.
I wish they would have held strong on the smaller maps, and balanced the game that way instead of giving in for the bigger maps which the game wasn't designed for. If you went back to smaller maps, with more action, get back to making zerg more "swarmier" so that they could compete on even bases so you don't have to give a free 3rd, and you will see more action that people will like instead of these long boring games where everyone just builds up for 1 engagement. You'd also see more unit variety as well.
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On August 14 2013 02:58 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 17:44 Bleak wrote:
I personally think the game started to get boring once maps got bigger.
I know, I know, many people asked for bigger maps, me including. I'm not talking about Metalopolis close positions or Steppes of War. What I'm trying to say is back when maps were smaller, the games were shorter, but also most of the times, much more intense.
As the maps got bigger, all the progamers do is just expand, macro-up, get an army, attack and hope to win. Terran matchups are somewhat different than this, as they utilize harrasment from multiple locations etc. but still, it doesn't really change the whole picture.
I remember watching Sen vs. Boxer in TSL on Metalopolis, that was such an intense and fun game.
Oh, and for those talking about steep learning curve in Sc2, try Dota. 1600 hours in and I still feel like a complete noob sometimes. The map thing was big to me as well. Of all the times Blizzard did decide to listen to the community I thought they should have held their ground more on that one. SC2 was designed for the smaller maps, even if not perfectly balanced I think the idea was(and you can see this with the mechanics and economy) that the maps would be smaller, you could do more on less bases, and the action would be more constant from the start and tier 3 units would be tough to reach. But fans didn't like that. They didn't like fast games, bunker rushes, etc. They said they wanted macro games. And now look at what we have. 3 base turtle with the same unit compositions each game. The position TvT tank that was fun to watch is done because the maps are to big to control with tanks. Then to compensate because they made maps bigger they end up buffing things like pheonix speed, muta speed, and boost for medivacs. Those units would have been fine in their old form on smaller maps. I started to think of some of the games from way back on maps where you were fighting over 1 gold expansion. Where getting and securing your expansion as a zerg was huge. Right now, I don't know why you even start with 5 workers and 1 base. Why not just start the game giving everyone 3 bases and 40 workers? It seems like 90% that is where we end up anyway. I wish they would have held strong on the smaller maps, and balanced the game that way instead of giving in for the bigger maps which the game wasn't designed for. If you went back to smaller maps, with more action, get back to making zerg more "swarmier" so that they could compete on even bases so you don't have to give a free 3rd, and you will see more action that people will like instead of these long boring games where everyone just builds up for 1 engagement. You'd also see more unit variety as well.
I still miss Xel'Naga Caverns. I even miss Scrap Station (although I wish it didn't have a backdoor and simply was a giant U instead.
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Scrap station really gave entertaining games even if it had some issues. At this point, fast action, more map control with position, etc. would be great. There is just not enough tension anymore. It is hard to get excited with such big maps everything just happens so slow.
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On August 14 2013 03:25 FLuE wrote:
Scrap station really gave entertaining games even if it had some issues. At this point, fast action, more map control with position, etc. would be great. There is just not enough tension anymore. It is hard to get excited with such big maps everything just happens so slow.
Scrap station only sucked when the rocks came down. I LOVED the big fights in the bottom while drops/air harass happened at the top.
EDIT: Also, I want more islands
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On August 14 2013 03:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 03:25 FLuE wrote:
Scrap station really gave entertaining games even if it had some issues. At this point, fast action, more map control with position, etc. would be great. There is just not enough tension anymore. It is hard to get excited with such big maps everything just happens so slow. Scrap station only sucked when the rocks came down. I LOVED the big fights in the bottom while drops/air harass happened at the top. EDIT: Also, I want more islands
literally falling asleep right now watching TOD vs. Targa on this giant map. Just 2 blobs slowly walking around avoiding each other.
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The big maps are an issue in part because the economy is screwed up. Turtle + costefficiency's natural strategic-level counter - that is, the level when factions have been abstracted away - expand everywhere and throw money at the problem until it dies doesn't exist. The economy is too fast so the hard pop cap is relevant outside of pure zergtastic meatgrinder tactics, econ doesn't scale.
It gets into being so screwed up that harassment ought to be the counter to turtling - when logically it is what you do to push someone into turtling and then Sauron them, or punish someone playing Sauron style.
Small maps keep those issues from surfacing as much. Less resources, pop cap isn't reached really due to constant skirmishing, expansions used to be a bit farther apart. Expanding is more costly and actually an economic benefit and a defensive liability. In short, the game manages to work somehow.
EDIT: Map design obv. screwed up too, but as long as wtfgates and mapeditorfields exist there's jack that can be done about that.
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I agree on the size of the maps. Macro styles and making it work on smaller maps with constant aggression from the opponent is an amazing display of skill and really fun to watch, the current style of not being touched and attacking at 200 supply is pretty drawn out. From a Spectator standpoint, watching 2 big blobs avoid each other while getting to 200 supply or waiting for upgrades are really boring to watch, especially if there is no engagement or skirmish earlier in that game. Although this takes a lot of skill to execute and is a tense moment, it doesn't LOOK that way. Comparing to other games such as DoTA2 or LoL, killing creeps in the lane LOOKS more appealing and more skillful due to the fact that you are actually achieving something (last hits) while being in your opponents face.
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tbh creeping is boring as hell to me. A big part of it is that it (last hitting and esp. denying) just doesn't make any sense without an XP bar. Without it's existence, you'd want to annihilate opposing waves with extreme prejudice. It's the same problem in SC2 lategame, and in recent Street Fighter outings, where a screwed-up system design results in action that is, in and of itself, skillful but just looks horribly unnatural and just somehow wrong.
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I know they did it before but it would be interesting if they did another tournament with the old original season 1/2 maps from WoL with HotS and see how the game looked. I know the main issue that existed was Zerg always seemed to struggle to hold that 3rd when getting sieged or hit with a timing on the smaller maps. I wonder if simply lowering spine build time and making them stronger(something done in BW with sunkens that helped) coupled with some other useful tools such as SH might make it better.
I just feel like they gave up addressing balance with the game and simply just said screw it make the maps bigger people want that and didn't think through what would actually happen. It has led to boring games. It led to the infestor /BL turtle. It led to the 3 base toss ball. And it led to terran basically playing MMM with all matchups because you need the mobility. It is clear the game was designed for smaller maps and when they went bigger to many things were broken (economy, warp gates, etc.) and that in turn has hurt viewership and exciting games.
Also as far as viewership goes we dont have enough "player variety" when it comes to style of play. Everyone hated the Hyper aggressive "cheese" players, but to be honest there was a place for them in the community even if they were hated you still wanted to see if they could cheese to a win. The big maps have led us to a place where macro oriented players have an advantage and micro is disappearing because there aren't enough small engagements to let a micro player get an advantage over a macro player. Someone like boxer whose specialty was those small engagements and getting the most out of their units have disappeared and they were fun players to watch. Not saying players don't have great control now but we rarely see great micro because you can only do so much with your giant blob. Splitting marines use to be having to keep all of them alive. Now when you have 50 marines the goal is to have 10 left after the engagement. Before you use to split 20 marines and wanted to have 12 when it was all said and done left. Blink micro? It isn't individually blinking units hardly anymore, it is large blinks moving huge clumps. Zerg micro? send a few lings to die to the mines first then send the rest of the lings. Wow. People just don't see the precision anymore with this game. You want to get viewers back:
A - More variety of play style. Even if not everyone likes it, you develop more of a storyline that way. Nobody likes the cheesy player? Well you can root against him. Now we only really have macro players who also have decent micro. If you have bad macro but great micro you will struggle with the current game outside of 2 base protoss timings.
B - More variety of maps and map sizes. All the maps are to similar, and the maps don't dictate enough variation in play style. No island maps. No maps with unique shape or features. No small maps that have limited resources. You can pretty much play the same way on all maps and be relatively successful.
C - Make the caster units more valuable and more return on investment for the players with better skill. BW did this great, the caster units were really hard to use, but if you knew how they had great value. The caster units in SC2 are horrible, and lack creativity. It is fun watching players micro the caster units and pull off miracles with them, that just doesn't happen enough and mostly because the caster units suck overall.
D - Fix warpgate. This is one of the most broken things Ive ever seen in any game ever. Let me get this straight, I warp in units anywhere AND it takes less cooldown than making the units at my home base? Sign me up. The warpgate dynamic should exist in such a way that there is a trade-off between warpgate(longer cooldown but instant warp) and gateway(faster units but made at home). The best players should understand this and constantly be switching between warpgate and gateway. Maybe even keeping half as warpgates and half as gateways in late game. This would allow for warpgate units to be made stronger, less of a need for forcefields, and open the game up for protoss. This is sorta a balance thing but this feature is one of the things that breaks the game for viewers because anytime you do anything with protoss you always have to account for the fact that they can instantly warp in an army anywhere especially late game. This was meant for smaller maps, on large maps it is breaking the game. I just don't get this, why should you get less cooldown and warpin?
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Warp gates are broken inherently. The design is incompatible with a Starcraft-style game. They're just less of a problem in smaller maps. Among other hilarity it makes ambushing reinforcements impossible, completely negates the traditional tradeoffs of proxying. The front loaded production itself allows toss to get production up way, way later than T or Z could ever afford to. It's just the sort of mechanic that cliffwalking lings are - cool and super fun in single player, but a stupid, gamebreaking idea with tons of side effects for multiplayer. In short, a thing that shouldn't exist, period.
Just making them slower won't help that much. The design itself is fundamentally broken and ignores several fundamental assumptions about how this sort of game works in the first place.
A: Sorely needed, but the overarching design needs to be fixed for that to happen. It'd also help stabilize the balance. This faction's deathball is super duper strong? Well, thankfully I don't have to beat it in a deathball fight, I can Sauron him to even the odds. May still not be balanced, but will lessen the edge. Now you just don't have that option.
B: Would probably need actual terrain features and less stupidly volatile and gimmick-based Protoss to be anywhere near viable. Now terrain features are basically vision blocks and mobility blocks. Cliffs are both. You have chokes. That's it. Just having basic high ground damage reduction would split mobility advantage, vision advantage and general importance up.
High ground bushes? Great for ambushes and stuff, but easy to weed out with zerglings or marines.
Low ground canyon? Quick path, allows for ambush.
And so on and so on.
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Warp Gates are fine as a mechanic. But they're bad for not having a drawback.
Much like medivac boosters, there is no reason NOT to boost/warpgate. When you attach a drawback to an ability, you can afford to make it "broken" so long as the drawback is appropriate.
Stim, for example, is a great spell. Big drawback for HIGH gains.
Storm is a terrible example, Big drawback for medium gains.
Snipe *was* a great example. Big drawback for HIGH gains.
Fungal Growth was a terrible example. Low Drawback, Medium gains
etc...
Without either a tactical cost or a HIGH resource cost, a spell won't have the back and forth WOW feeling.
Reavers was less supply and as long a range as Colossus. They also had better splash and higher damage. They also had less weaknesses.
But reaver shots were painfully slow, cost minerals, and required physical actions to keep up. So the advantages were weighed down by the tactical and resource cost of the unit.
SC2 units need more drawbacks for bigger advantages.
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I agree that SC2 admittedly has gameplay mechanics that may undermine the game's true potential, but I don't think that this has contributed to SC2 stagnant or declining viewer base. From what I watched of TI3 there are inherent issues which make DoTA2 drag on and really detract from the excitement (I won't even get into my issues of balance and mechanics in LoL). None of these games has been able to completely encapsulate pure balance, absolutely varied gameplay, and constant excitement.
That being said, I think that the popularity of esports will swing like a pendulum. Starcraft has been around for a while and has more or less dominated esports. I think people are gravitating towards MOBAs because they're new and exciting. As long as Blizzard doesn't royally screw the NA scene with the WCS and continues to devote attention to patching the game and making it enjoyable/easy to watch, SC2 will continue to grow (although probably not as much as it once did).
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On August 14 2013 05:33 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Warp Gates are fine as a mechanic. But they're bad for not having a drawback.
Much like medivac boosters, there is no reason NOT to boost/warpgate. When you attach a drawback to an ability, you can afford to make it "broken" so long as the drawback is appropriate.
Stim, for example, is a great spell. Big drawback for HIGH gains.
Storm is a terrible example, Big drawback for medium gains.
Snipe *was* a great example. Big drawback for HIGH gains.
Fungal Growth was a terrible example. Low Drawback, Medium gains
etc...
Without either a tactical cost or a HIGH resource cost, a spell won't have the back and forth WOW feeling.
Reavers was less supply and as long a range as Colossus. They also had better splash and higher damage. They also had less weaknesses.
But reaver shots were painfully slow, cost minerals, and required physical actions to keep up. So the advantages were weighed down by the tactical and resource cost of the unit.
SC2 units need more drawbacks for bigger advantages.
The drawback thing is a very decent approach to improve quality of sc2.
Spells don't need drawbacks though. The only purpose of templars is to do a storm, of infestors to do fungals etc. Its like saying there should be a drawback for a hydra shooting.
But one big point of you is the warpgate mechanic. As already discussed and widely agreed on it should be part of the decision making of protoss how many warpgates he wants to use and how many usual gateways he needs. Right now warpgate only is just boring and unfair at all. E.g. warpprism + 7gate warpin + sentry drop forcefield ramp is just a big bullshit. This kind of stuff should not be able to end games, it is boring to watch and feels very undeserved. In general it would be much more exciting to see protoss vary between strategies that rely only on usual gateways, those that use a mixture and some that rely on pure warpgates. It would also require the opponents to identify what they are playing against and allow changes in unit production speed of usual gateways and warpgates. Warpgates should either be more costy in mins/gas or in time consumption, so macro style builds would go for gateways and later on use some warpgates to harrass expansions with e.g. dt warpins, zealot warpins. Early agression builds could go for earlier warpgates and so on.
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It seems like posts like this have been cropping up everywhere recently. HOWEVER, you guys are all forgetting that the business model for SC2 is COMPLETELY different from LoL/Dota 2. A game of SC2 is PAID UPFRONT versus LoL/Dota 2 which is FREE. Everyone wants the SC2 competitive scene to improve by leaps and bounds, but no one is considering whether this will MAKE BLIZZARD MORE MONEY.
WOL during release cost $60, and HOTS during release cost $40. If you are an eager SC2 gamer, you would have paid $100 to play this game. Would you pay LoL or Dota 2 $100 upfront just to play the game? Would ANYONE do so?
No matter how amazing all you guy's ideas are, there is always the MONEY BARRIER. Your ideas have to be so incredible that it will get people to pay up to $100 upfront for it.
The differing business model between Blizzard and LoL/Dota 2 results in different business strategies. Consider where ESPORTS stand in their respective business strategies:
Blizzard: loyal fanbase from previous games + strong promotion prior to game release -> people buying SC2 -> ESPORTS "community-building platform" increase loyalty of SC2 gamers -> more willing to buy other/future Blizzard games
LoL/Dota2 : ESPORTS -> attract viewers to try out FREE game -> limited gameplay entices player to spend money to expand their gameplay
As far as my limited knowledge goes, that how I see their business model in the most BASIC form. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Anyways, all you TL posters have really interesting ideas, but the key is how these ideas can be implemented into Blizzard's business model in order to generate a profit. In my SINCERE opinion, they cannot be implemented. Blizzard would have to completely change their business model and completely change their approach to utilizing esports.
Would that happen? Meh Idk :\
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Its not about 100$ if game design in its segment is well or not. LoL competes with other games of its kind like dota and that stuff.
Its not about generating money anymore. Blizzard has gotten the money already, people paid 100$ upfront for SC2+hots already. It is all about good game design and linked to this it is about blizzards reputation. After the fails of D3 blizzard can show their qualities in game design in SC2 to improve their reputation and generate future income with future products and this is what they are trying to do. But they are not very brave to rethink decisions that they have made in the past like changing fundamental things as the warpgate mechanic or forcefields.
This is not about making new people buy SC2. Its about bringing back people who bought the game already but lost interest to keep playing it. Sorry but your money argument is weak. If blizzard doesnt convince with its products anymore (see D3) they will see it in sales of future products. This topic is not at all about changing game design to make new people purchase the game!!!
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You can't force anybody to watch or play SC2.
It's a game. Games are ment to have fun. If people don't have fun in SC2, they will quit. It's just natural.
SC2 is 3 years old now, it's normal that people quit playing.
Yes, we had SC:BW 12 years long. But that was a different game in a different time! The whole game flow, the units, the other games - everything was different. Whereas SC2 is a very fast game, but also a very limited game in things you can do or things that can happen. Blizzard just designed it in that way; in my opinion SC2 is worse to watch and worse to play than SC:BW, but others may disagree. At the same time there are tons of other nice games around. And that's the reason SC2 is not SC:BW, it is a good game but just a normal game. Which will eventually die if more and more people will quit.
I think everyone knows now, SC2 will not be of the same longevity as SC:BW.
But why care what other people do? If you like SC2, just play it! Hence, some people even still play SC:BW after 15 years!
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On August 14 2013 10:36 LSN wrote:
Its not about 100$ if game design in its segment is well or not. LoL competes with other games of its kind like dota and that stuff.
Its not about generating money anymore.
umm, yes it is
Blizzard has gotten the money already, people paid 100$ upfront for SC2+hots already. It is all about good game design and linked to this it is about blizzards reputation. After the fails of D3 blizzard can show their qualities in game design in SC2 to improve their reputation and generate future income with future products and this is what they are trying to do. But they are not very brave to rethink decisions that they have made in the past like changing fundamental things as the warpgate mechanic or forcefields.
This is not about making new people buy SC2. Its about bringing back people who bought the game already but lost interest to keep playing it. Sorry but your money argument is weak. If blizzard doesnt convince with its products anymore (see D3) they will see it in sales of future products. This topic is not at all about changing game design to make new people purchase the game!!!
Ok I'm not even gonna attempt to argue with this... Perhaps I'll suggest people to read up on some fundamentals of business.
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On August 14 2013 10:47 Caladan wrote:
You can't force anybody to watch or play SC2.
It's a game. Games are ment to have fun. If people don't have fun in SC2, they will quit. It's just natural.
SC2 is 3 years old now, it's normal that people quit playing.
Yes, we had SC:BW 12 years long. But that was a different game in a different time! The whole game flow, the units, the other games - everything was different. Whereas SC2 is a very fast game, but also a very limited game in things you can do or things that can happen. Blizzard just designed it in that way; in my opinion SC2 is worse to watch and worse to play than SC:BW, but others may disagree. At the same time there are tons of other nice games around. And that's the reason SC2 is not SC:BW, it is a good game but just a normal game. Which will eventually die if more and more people will quit.
I think everyone knows now, SC2 will not be of the same longevity as SC:BW.
But why care what other people do? If you like SC2, just play it! Hence, some people even still play SC:BW after 15 years!
I actually heavily disagree with that.
I believe Starcraft 2 will last for at least 8 years or until Starcraft III comes out, because until then it is still the best RTS out there, and rather than switching to other genres I do believe that we will keep growing because we love the game.
We get it, some other people don't think it's as good as SC:BW. I'm a fan of both. But I became addicted to Starcraft II and not Starcraft Broodwar, and that is where my love is and where I hope many others' lie as well.
Even while some pros and staff members believe that SC2 didn't become the "promised child" like it was meant to be, I still believe it will end up being the greatest E-Sport of this generation. I don't think that the attention that MOBA's like LoL will last because to me they're just the passing fancy of the modern age, while Starcraft II attracts a deeper sentiment than just a game which is fun.
It's a game which we love and because of that I don't think it'll ever truly die, and even when it eventually becomes surpassed, it will still remain forever in memory much like SC:BW.
People nowadays are so defeatist, they ignore how far we've come and how we are still growing and instead point to individual faults. We've been continually growing, but it's that our growth is outshadowed by others. And I don't believe it'll stay that way.
On topic: Get your friends involved. Email sponsors and tell them thanks. Subscribe to r/starcraft and make a TL account.
Post and make cheerfulls.
Show your passion, not only to us but to the world, and this passion will light a flame much reminiscent of the torch in JFK's speech, but instead we light it for E-Sports.
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The problem is that the game is too slow paced compared to others, it's kinda of niche.
Dota, lol, CoD, etc, any time you tune in there is something happening, there is someone getting killed.
If someone who never played SC2 before decides to watch WCS finals he will be there stuck with 10 minutes of scv's collecting minerals/very passive gameplay, and most people don't have the patience for it.
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On August 14 2013 11:36 DDie wrote:
The problem is that the game is too slow paced compared to others, it's kinda of niche.
Dota, lol, CoD, etc, any time you tune in there is something happening, there is someone getting killed.
If someone who never played SC2 before decides to watch WCS finals he will be there stuck with 10 minutes of scv's collecting minerals/very passive gameplay, and most people don't have the patience for it.
That's a weak argument. In Dota and lol, (coming from a new TI3 watcher as well as a person who watches part of the korean lol scene), there are plenty of times where they are just creep killing.
There's more downtime in Moba's than Starcraft in my opinion.
I see your point, I just respectfully disagree.
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On August 14 2013 11:40 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 11:36 DDie wrote:
The problem is that the game is too slow paced compared to others, it's kinda of niche.
Dota, lol, CoD, etc, any time you tune in there is something happening, there is someone getting killed.
If someone who never played SC2 before decides to watch WCS finals he will be there stuck with 10 minutes of scv's collecting minerals/very passive gameplay, and most people don't have the patience for it.
That's a weak argument. In Dota and lol, (coming from a new TI3 watcher as well as a person who watches part of the korean lol scene), there are plenty of times where they are just creep killing. There's more downtime in Moba's than Starcraft in my opinion. I see your point, I just respectfully disagree.
I don't see how moba's have more downtime than SC2, it's not even close in my opinion. But again, I've stopped following the scene at the end of WoL where almost every game was a build up to that 200/200 engagement, usually with brood lords on one side..
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On August 14 2013 10:19 FrogsAreDogs wrote:
It seems like posts like this have been cropping up everywhere recently. HOWEVER, you guys are all forgetting that the business model for SC2 is COMPLETELY different from LoL/Dota 2. A game of SC2 is PAID UPFRONT versus LoL/Dota 2 which is FREE. Everyone wants the SC2 competitive scene to improve by leaps and bounds, but no one is considering whether this will MAKE BLIZZARD MORE MONEY.
WOL during release cost $60, and HOTS during release cost $40. If you are an eager SC2 gamer, you would have paid $100 to play this game. Would you pay LoL or Dota 2 $100 upfront just to play the game? Would ANYONE do so?
No matter how amazing all you guy's ideas are, there is always the MONEY BARRIER. Your ideas have to be so incredible that it will get people to pay up to $100 upfront for it.
The differing business model between Blizzard and LoL/Dota 2 results in different business strategies. Consider where ESPORTS stand in their respective business strategies:
Blizzard: loyal fanbase from previous games + strong promotion prior to game release -> people buying SC2 -> ESPORTS "community-building platform" increase loyalty of SC2 gamers -> more willing to buy other/future Blizzard games
LoL/Dota2 : ESPORTS -> attract viewers to try out FREE game -> limited gameplay entices player to spend money to expand their gameplay
As far as my limited knowledge goes, that how I see their business model in the most BASIC form. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Anyways, all you TL posters have really interesting ideas, but the key is how these ideas can be implemented into Blizzard's business model in order to generate a profit. In my SINCERE opinion, they cannot be implemented. Blizzard would have to completely change their business model and completely change their approach to utilizing esports.
Would that happen? Meh Idk :\
Well writtend
I also want to note that Legacy of the Void is coming out and which will be another 40$. So buy the time Legacy of the Void is out, a new person tryning to play sc2 will have to play a whopping 140$ just to play Legacy of the Void which I find obsurd. I will never buy a never buy an alternate account because of how expensive it is.
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On August 14 2013 12:08 DDie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 11:40 Pandain wrote:On August 14 2013 11:36 DDie wrote:
The problem is that the game is too slow paced compared to others, it's kinda of niche.
Dota, lol, CoD, etc, any time you tune in there is something happening, there is someone getting killed.
If someone who never played SC2 before decides to watch WCS finals he will be there stuck with 10 minutes of scv's collecting minerals/very passive gameplay, and most people don't have the patience for it.
That's a weak argument. In Dota and lol, (coming from a new TI3 watcher as well as a person who watches part of the korean lol scene), there are plenty of times where they are just creep killing. There's more downtime in Moba's than Starcraft in my opinion. I see your point, I just respectfully disagree. I don't see how moba's have more downtime than SC2, it's not even close in my opinion. But again, I've stopped following the scene at the end of WoL where almost every game was a build up to that 200/200 engagement, usually with brood lords on one side..
In Hots aggression hits earlier(normally around 7 minutes as a general rule.)
You rarely even see Broodlords anymore, instead they're the coveted hard to use late game unit which they were intended to be.
I really can't think of a pure downtime match-up besides PvP, and even that is getting more diverse by the day. See Hasuobs v. Grubby for instance, or any of the Proleague matches.
20% of PvP matches are just awful, 20% are really really good, and the rest are just positional wars which are in fact pretty bland.
However with players straying from colossus nowadays it's getting more action packed and dare I say interesting?
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As a former player of all the current major RTS/Moba games at a high level (not professional, a step below it) and currently playing LoL at Diamond level, I'll offer some views as a generally Moba player.
When I played SC2 for a little over a year from the day it came out, I watched all the tournaments. It was very volatile back then since people were still figuring out the game, and it was a lot of fun to watch all the crazy strategies although a whole ton of it was "cheesy".
Then I hit a wall in improving my playskill, stopped playing, and the games got boring to watch.
To me, the fundamental "problem" with the game is that there's only two things to do --- 1) get better, or 2)lose. The game is unforgiving in that there's really nothing for lower level players to do, or even decent players once they stop feeling the desire to improve. It just doesn't have room for casual players, and in that sense I don't think it'll ever match the FtP games. Skill is everything.
On the flipside, that's what makes the game desirable for the people that actually still play the game. It's a 1v1 game, and there isn't much room for luck compared to other games. I love volatility, and I love how every game is vastly different just from the heroes/champs chosen in MOBA games. This feeling is not shared by the SC2 community, as can be clearly seen by the overwhelming hate for 'cheesy' strategies. You guys like to see a "clean good fight" in a fairly controlled environment, and I think you guys are already a minority in this sense.
I don't really know a solution to this dilemma. The most popular games out there right now appeal to casual gamers(starting by being Free to Play), but the most basic appeal of SC2 doesn't allow that.
As for the WCS, it also doesn't help that that Korean players are just better. If I'm going to watch a game where skill is everything, I'd rather be watching the best of the best. Comparatively, I love watching NA tournaments the most for League of Legends because every game is just chaos.
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On August 14 2013 10:19 FrogsAreDogs wrote:
It seems like posts like this have been cropping up everywhere recently. HOWEVER, you guys are all forgetting that the business model for SC2 is COMPLETELY different from LoL/Dota 2. A game of SC2 is PAID UPFRONT versus LoL/Dota 2 which is FREE. Everyone wants the SC2 competitive scene to improve by leaps and bounds, but no one is considering whether this will MAKE BLIZZARD MORE MONEY.
WOL during release cost $60, and HOTS during release cost $40. If you are an eager SC2 gamer, you would have paid $100 to play this game. Would you pay LoL or Dota 2 $100 upfront just to play the game? Would ANYONE do so?
No matter how amazing all you guy's ideas are, there is always the MONEY BARRIER. Your ideas have to be so incredible that it will get people to pay up to $100 upfront for it.
Considering the amount of time I spent playing Dota 2 (+1600 hours), 100 Dollars is really nothing. Now ofcourse, if you don't know anything about the game and not sure whether to buy it or not, then the price can be a barrier.
But SC2's problem is just more than an entry barrier. As others have said, the game is better designed for smaller maps and lots of small skirmishes, not blobs of 200 supplies crashing into each other.
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Is anyone else tired of part time comedian casters? I feel like the casters in TI3 blew away what we usually get from SC2 largely because they always took every minute of the game seriously and sounded genuinely interested. It's like everyone viewed Tastosis as the best so every caster took the make jokes during so called downtime and ran with it, there are some exceptions of course.
1) it makes the casters sound like they are bored of the game they are watching, they are supposed to be keeping people interested
2) downtime would be better filled with more detailed talk of the builds the players are using, and why the builds fit into the meta game, what came before it, etc. If you are watching SC2, you are probably more interested in this stuff, as people will scour through vods to find build timings that casters have decided is too boring to talk about
3) more often than not joke time stretches much longer than it should and important details are missed - on GOMTV the observer will often do a better job casting the game if you watch what he circles with the mouse as they talk about meaningless crap
I think better casting would help get more views
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On August 14 2013 16:35 Treemonkeys wrote:
Is anyone else tired of part time comedian casters? I feel like the casters in TI3 blew away what we usually get from SC2 largely because they always took every minute of the game seriously and sounded genuinely interested. It's like everyone viewed Tastosis as the best so every caster took the make jokes during so called downtime and ran with it, there are some exceptions of course.
1) it makes the casters sound like they are bored of the game they are watching, they are supposed to be keeping people interested
2) downtime would be better filled with more detailed talk of the builds the players are using, and why the builds fit into the meta game, what came before it, etc. If you are watching SC2, you are probably more interested in this stuff, as people will scour through vods to find build timings that casters have decided is too boring to talk about
3) more often than not joke time stretches much longer than it should and important details are missed - on GOMTV the observer will often do a better job casting the game if you watch what he circles with the mouse as they talk about meaningless crap
I think better casting would help get more views
i think the exact opposite what you have written down.
I love the fact they are silly as hell and this is why they are the best they dont only talk about build orders and tactics cause then you will hear the same stuff for a week. They keep me watching because there's good game to watch and alot of the times im laughing my ass off. about 3) there you have a point sometimes they miss detailed stuff or important actions but next to that i have to totally disagree this is why they are populair and why i did not like the casters in TI3 at dota
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I was wondering, considering all the varied discussion this thread has recieved, what would you rate SC2 now as a game?
I'd give it 7.4/10.
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On August 14 2013 12:13 Rickyvalle21 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 10:19 FrogsAreDogs wrote:
It seems like posts like this have been cropping up everywhere recently. HOWEVER, you guys are all forgetting that the business model for SC2 is COMPLETELY different from LoL/Dota 2. A game of SC2 is PAID UPFRONT versus LoL/Dota 2 which is FREE. Everyone wants the SC2 competitive scene to improve by leaps and bounds, but no one is considering whether this will MAKE BLIZZARD MORE MONEY.
WOL during release cost $60, and HOTS during release cost $40. If you are an eager SC2 gamer, you would have paid $100 to play this game. Would you pay LoL or Dota 2 $100 upfront just to play the game? Would ANYONE do so?
No matter how amazing all you guy's ideas are, there is always the MONEY BARRIER. Your ideas have to be so incredible that it will get people to pay up to $100 upfront for it.
The differing business model between Blizzard and LoL/Dota 2 results in different business strategies. Consider where ESPORTS stand in their respective business strategies:
Blizzard: loyal fanbase from previous games + strong promotion prior to game release -> people buying SC2 -> ESPORTS "community-building platform" increase loyalty of SC2 gamers -> more willing to buy other/future Blizzard games
LoL/Dota2 : ESPORTS -> attract viewers to try out FREE game -> limited gameplay entices player to spend money to expand their gameplay
As far as my limited knowledge goes, that how I see their business model in the most BASIC form. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Anyways, all you TL posters have really interesting ideas, but the key is how these ideas can be implemented into Blizzard's business model in order to generate a profit. In my SINCERE opinion, they cannot be implemented. Blizzard would have to completely change their business model and completely change their approach to utilizing esports.
Would that happen? Meh Idk :\ Well writtend I also want to note that Legacy of the Void is coming out and which will be another 40$. So buy the time Legacy of the Void is out, a new person tryning to play sc2 will have to play a whopping 140$ just to play Legacy of the Void which I find obsurd. I will never buy a never buy an alternate account because of how expensive it is.
Hmm that seems silly indeed, 140$ realy?
If lotv will cost 40$ you should be able to play online with it without needing the earlier releases.
Can you even still get wol in shops? maybe some have it on discount but manny shops probably dont have it annymore.
Seems like a huge drawback for someone getting interested in the game but then not beeing able to easily buy all the disks needed to play it.
The expansions should be completely playable with all features needed for online play, the only thing missing should be the campaign.Better make expansions 60$ then 40$ and having to buy all the previous disks, this realy is a HUGE drawback for new players.
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On August 13 2013 23:30 KaiserKieran wrote:
The entire WCS should be offline. As in a designated city in America has challenger league, and premier league offline as well as qualifiers. That way only people in that city will be able to try out and if it is to expensive to fly back and forth from Korea than it will make Koreans more wary to try out. Same for Europe as well.
In addition, prize money should be taken from the 17th through 32 (like 250$ each) and evenly distributed in the challenger league. This will do 3 things,
1. Make it so that falling out of Premier league is not a huge deal.
2. allow more of a motivation for new players to try and break in to the challenger league since there is at least some money there.
3. Give more money to lower level players as motivation to try and get more in premier.
I mean who wants to work hard and spend hours practicing and making it through the qualifiers just to end up getting 25 WCS points that won't even count for anything since they are not good enough to get enough points to qualify for the season finals. It is stuipid and a BS way to give out something.
I would much rather see this than what they have now.
I kind of agree with this. It's hard to be able to afford it all but maybe Blizzard can do it. Perhaps crowd funding would be a good way of supporting this idea. Maybe post this on the reddit to see how people like it?
Edit: Paying to join might be a cool idea, even if it's online. That would support the funding very well imo.
As for the first bit with the korean thing, they're not going to fly across the world constantly just to win $250 anyway. If they do end up losing early, well whatever. Shitty luck and turns off international support. I think KeSPA would rage at it as well, boycotting WCS. I don't think region locking is going to help anyone until na and eu are as popularized as the korean sc2 is.
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About prices: WoL+HotS was being sold by Blizzard for $60. There was even a hube outcry in BNet Forums of WoL players feeling they had lost their money (...). So LotV will likely be sold to new players with better prices, not to mention the Starter/Spawning will be probably be improved until there.
I think the Blizzard is already making almost everything they can do to help SCII grow. They're:
1) Supporting e-sports (which keeps the community close/brings few more people).
2) Incentiving people to play Arcade games (which are essential to keep people playing SCII, and potentially bring in more players like DotA did to WC3).
Of course both things could be improved. Specially incentives to play Arcade games.
Next things to do would be:
3) Improve the map editor and pretty much listen more to the mod community. The editor isn't only hard, it's also very limited in many ways.
4) Support a casual approach to melee. I mean incentiving people to play team games and also the idea of "casual melee maps" (maps with unique features).
5) Improve BN's social aspect with Clans Wars, daily tournaments and other ideas.
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On August 13 2013 23:05 KOtical wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 22:04 evaniss wrote:
1vs1 based game can NOT be surpass the number of users than Teamplay based games even if SC2 change to free to play
Quite a lot of people seems to think that why BW did success in korea is no need purchase to play at the PC cafe so it's free to play
and you might to think most koreans have been play BW for 1vs1 mostly since BW was hugely popular in the e-sports
BUT you totally wrong, as i posted before koreans have been play for teamplay with friends mostly at the PC cafe
also quite many of koreans have been play BW for teamplay at home
that's why most koreans understand and familiar to accept BW friendly. u can make teamgames in sc2 also... so i think especially for the youth in korea wich doesnt want to pay for all the games the f2p model would give us some more players... sure sc2´s main base is 1v1 but i met in EU and US servers alot of those low level players wich seems to not care about 1v1 and play alot of teamgames (2v2,3v3,4v4, ffa...)
SC2 is messed Balance for teamplay and it's not fun to play and watch
it could just personal Opinion but i know teamplay is Minority of play in SC2
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The makers of the game have decided its fate already. It is not meant for casual players. The only objective of this game is adapting to/exploiting meta play styles and superior mechanics that are adopted through countless playing hours.
SC2 will reach the same grandness of BW, but it will only be when Blizzard stops patching and all of the expansions are finished. Then the meta will be more solidified and the game will have a smaller learning curve for casual players. This is the greatest opportunity for the "growth" of SC2, but that competes with Blizzard Entertainment as a corporation, because the makers of the game are dependent on profit, which requires more expansions/games, which requires changes to the meta if people choose to adopt the new games.
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On August 14 2013 12:08 DDie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 11:40 Pandain wrote:On August 14 2013 11:36 DDie wrote:
The problem is that the game is too slow paced compared to others, it's kinda of niche.
Dota, lol, CoD, etc, any time you tune in there is something happening, there is someone getting killed.
If someone who never played SC2 before decides to watch WCS finals he will be there stuck with 10 minutes of scv's collecting minerals/very passive gameplay, and most people don't have the patience for it.
That's a weak argument. In Dota and lol, (coming from a new TI3 watcher as well as a person who watches part of the korean lol scene), there are plenty of times where they are just creep killing. There's more downtime in Moba's than Starcraft in my opinion. I see your point, I just respectfully disagree. I don't see how moba's have more downtime than SC2, it's not even close in my opinion. But again, I've stopped following the scene at the end of WoL where almost every game was a build up to that 200/200 engagement, usually with brood lords on one side..
Do you prefer the bitbybit era of sc2? I think SC2 is currently in the best shape it has ever been.
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On August 14 2013 10:18 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 05:33 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Warp Gates are fine as a mechanic. But they're bad for not having a drawback.
Much like medivac boosters, there is no reason NOT to boost/warpgate. When you attach a drawback to an ability, you can afford to make it "broken" so long as the drawback is appropriate.
Stim, for example, is a great spell. Big drawback for HIGH gains.
Storm is a terrible example, Big drawback for medium gains.
Snipe *was* a great example. Big drawback for HIGH gains.
Fungal Growth was a terrible example. Low Drawback, Medium gains
etc...
Without either a tactical cost or a HIGH resource cost, a spell won't have the back and forth WOW feeling.
Reavers was less supply and as long a range as Colossus. They also had better splash and higher damage. They also had less weaknesses.
But reaver shots were painfully slow, cost minerals, and required physical actions to keep up. So the advantages were weighed down by the tactical and resource cost of the unit.
SC2 units need more drawbacks for bigger advantages. The drawback thing is a very decent approach to improve quality of sc2. Spells don't need drawbacks though. The only purpose of templars is to do a storm, of infestors to do fungals etc. Its like saying there should be a drawback for a hydra shooting. But one big point of you is the warpgate mechanic. As already discussed and widely agreed on it should be part of the decision making of protoss how many warpgates he wants to use and how many usual gateways he needs. Right now warpgate only is just boring and unfair at all. E.g. warpprism + 7gate warpin + sentry drop forcefield ramp is just a big bullshit. This kind of stuff should not be able to end games, it is boring to watch and feels very undeserved. In general it would be much more exciting to see protoss vary between strategies that rely only on usual gateways, those that use a mixture and some that rely on pure warpgates. It would also require the opponents to identify what they are playing against and allow changes in unit production speed of usual gateways and warpgates. Warpgates should either be more costy in mins/gas or in time consumption, so macro style builds would go for gateways and later on use some warpgates to harrass expansions with e.g. dt warpins, zealot warpins. Early agression builds could go for earlier warpgates and so on.
The drawback doesn't have to be so direct
For example, the 200/200 cost + research time of Storm is a BIG weakness, but when you need 2 storms to kill workers and you can't cast more than 2-3 storms a templar, what's the point of it?
Fungal Growth doesn't deal a lot of damage. About as much as a Siege tank shot, but has a "longer cooldown" of 4 seconds per 35 damage. But it's such a low risk unit because of its root ability that you don't mind waiting 4 seconds to cast the 2nd, 3rd, 4rth, nth fungal in a row.
If fungal was a root, but did no damage, or it had higher damage, but was a slow instead, then you can get dynamic game play.
As a point of comparison, let's look at the Lurker. Can't shoot while moving, long attack cool down, and costs 125 gas to make after you spend 300 gas on lair/upgrade. It comes with splash+cloak. Its easy to "counter" but it can also be abused. The Infestor on the other hand is hard to counter, and easy to abuse. Infestors are 10x stronger than Lurkers which are pretty much just Blueflame Hellions with cloak instead of speed. Lurkers are able to destroy an enemy base better, but a proper timed scan kills them all.
The drawbacks are always needed in game design. Without drawbacks, there is no sense of choice. Why make Hydralisks when Infestors fight air better? Why make roaches when Infestors hold the front lines better? etc...
i'm not asking for nerfs; I'm asking for massive buffs across the board. Buffs that carry with them trojan horses of tactical or resource weaknesses.
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On August 15 2013 02:32 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 12:08 DDie wrote:On August 14 2013 11:40 Pandain wrote:On August 14 2013 11:36 DDie wrote:
The problem is that the game is too slow paced compared to others, it's kinda of niche.
Dota, lol, CoD, etc, any time you tune in there is something happening, there is someone getting killed.
If someone who never played SC2 before decides to watch WCS finals he will be there stuck with 10 minutes of scv's collecting minerals/very passive gameplay, and most people don't have the patience for it.
That's a weak argument. In Dota and lol, (coming from a new TI3 watcher as well as a person who watches part of the korean lol scene), there are plenty of times where they are just creep killing. There's more downtime in Moba's than Starcraft in my opinion. I see your point, I just respectfully disagree. I don't see how moba's have more downtime than SC2, it's not even close in my opinion. But again, I've stopped following the scene at the end of WoL where almost every game was a build up to that 200/200 engagement, usually with brood lords on one side.. Do you prefer the bitbybit era of sc2? I think SC2 is currently in the best shape it has ever been.
We have much better early games and mid games now, but the late game fights of 2010 were marvels to behold.
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Really in my opinion, what made me lose interest as a player and viewer of sc2, it all comes down to the following:
too many boring attack move units(collossus roach marauder hellion corrupter immortal ... etc) and too many too gimmicky units( like forcefield one forcefield can change everything.. ,on the other hand a lot of spells were barely any useful in normal multiplayer gameplay at least in the countless games i played most abilitys were used almost never!)
Some units abilitys can be either super effective or useless, like a widow mine shot can be useless hitting a single zergling but if it hits in a clusterd junk of units one good shot can decide the game, or hellionharras can be useless but if for some reason the drones are lined up a few attacks from one unit makes it gg, or when an engagement gets decided because of one single forcefield and all that other jazz, well at least thats what i think, peace.
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WCS mistakes, balance, and unit design really have little to do with growing SC2 or SC2 tournament viewership. It's really:
1) SC2 is far less casual-friendly than dota2 or LoL.
2) SC2 is not free to play.
3) SC2 is completely dominated by 1 country of 60 million people.
I doubt SC2 player-base or viewership will grow in a significant way if you aren't addressing one of those 3.
However, I don't think that means the sky is falling. Its ok if the mobas are bigger. I'm optimistic that there's enough interest to sustain an esports scene for SC2. And as far as us mortals go, we can still have fun laddering and such.
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On August 14 2013 16:46 Zaxon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 16:35 Treemonkeys wrote:
Is anyone else tired of part time comedian casters? I feel like the casters in TI3 blew away what we usually get from SC2 largely because they always took every minute of the game seriously and sounded genuinely interested. It's like everyone viewed Tastosis as the best so every caster took the make jokes during so called downtime and ran with it, there are some exceptions of course.
1) it makes the casters sound like they are bored of the game they are watching, they are supposed to be keeping people interested
2) downtime would be better filled with more detailed talk of the builds the players are using, and why the builds fit into the meta game, what came before it, etc. If you are watching SC2, you are probably more interested in this stuff, as people will scour through vods to find build timings that casters have decided is too boring to talk about
3) more often than not joke time stretches much longer than it should and important details are missed - on GOMTV the observer will often do a better job casting the game if you watch what he circles with the mouse as they talk about meaningless crap
I think better casting would help get more views i think the exact opposite what you have written down. I love the fact they are silly as hell and this is why they are the best they dont only talk about build orders and tactics cause then you will hear the same stuff for a week. They keep me watching because there's good game to watch and alot of the times im laughing my ass off. about 3) there you have a point sometimes they miss detailed stuff or important actions but next to that i have to totally disagree this is why they are populair and why i did not like the casters in TI3 at dota
It's ok on smaller scale tournaments to be silly and tell jokes. But keep it out at least from WCS. WCS AM was simply horrible to watch with Bitterdam telling their internal jokes and being completely unprofessional.
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Right now I think SC2 as a game is at best form, most exciting games and most skillful.
Only insanely good players can actually win tournaments now.
It's just too bad that when the game's at it's peak, the community is at a low.
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Fire the two lead game designs and actually bring on individuals who have experience within the community (IE Pros/retired pros/advocates for the game) to actually have a input and say in what happens with the game play.
Bring back Blizzard Invitational that was held in Brood War.
Get rid of the all at once battle and whoever pushes through win, make the game actually take some skill and require players to actually work instead of build basically one strategy and a move. (Flame me for this saying this statement, truly don't care about the community/game anymore in the current state with everything going on).
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Blizzard need to balance the 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 game. Obviously esports would still be only 1v1 but the fundemental problem with Sc2 is no ones actually playing it because solo grinding 1v1 isn't fun for most people.
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the gaming climate of 1998 and 2010 were very different times. the output of game studios is monumental compared to 1998, not to mention the wide array of types of games and genres. Besides, isn't SC2 already a whopping success worldwide compared to BW, at least as far as audiences go?
I also think there's a contradiction sometimes from what the community says it wants. There's nostalgia for all the modding and the noob friendly player base,something that plenty of games now offer. Then we also want something radically different (I think).
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On August 15 2013 05:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
Fire the two lead game designs and actually bring on individuals who have experience within the community (IE Pros/retired pros/advocates for the game) to actually have a input and say in what happens with the game play.
Bring back Blizzard Invitational that was held in Brood War.
Get rid of the all at once battle and whoever pushes through win, make the game actually take some skill and require players to actually work instead of build basically one strategy and a move. (Flame me for this saying this statement, truly don't care about the community/game anymore in the current state with everything going on).
I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth, but it sounds like you're saying making the game harder would grow the scene? If so, I have to completely disagree.
4.5 million+ copies of SC2 that have sold, but the multi-player/esports scene is *much* smaller than that. I really doubt that's because all the owner's of SC2 said to themselves "Man, if only I had to work harder at this game, I'd still be playing it".
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On August 15 2013 05:29 Smackzilla wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 05:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
Fire the two lead game designs and actually bring on individuals who have experience within the community (IE Pros/retired pros/advocates for the game) to actually have a input and say in what happens with the game play.
Bring back Blizzard Invitational that was held in Brood War.
Get rid of the all at once battle and whoever pushes through win, make the game actually take some skill and require players to actually work instead of build basically one strategy and a move. (Flame me for this saying this statement, truly don't care about the community/game anymore in the current state with everything going on). I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth, but it sounds like you're saying making the game harder would grow the scene? If so, I have to completely disagree. 4.5 million+ copies of SC2 that have sold, but the multi-player/esports scene is *much* smaller than that. I really doubt that's because all the owner's of SC2 said to themselves "Man, if only I had to work harder at this game, I'd still be playing it".
I come from 12 years of sc1 as opposed to 3.5 years in sc2 and I enjoyed Sc1 much more than Sc2. Reason being because it actually took alot of dedication and skill to be good and continue to stay at top performance. Guarantee that if they reverted the style of gameplay from how it is now to SC1 you would not see half of the crap you see now. Its been said on numerous occasions by numerous bw pros and competitors that sc2 is much more dumbed down and requires alot less skill and its frustrating to them as it is myself.
Personally, I believe Blizzard made the game much more dumbed down and less skill intensive just for money value so they can sell more. But as I said thats just my opinion personally.
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So here is my take on it. This might be a little long but I have not seen this take on it in the posts I read so far.
Emotions in esport
The main thing that makes any sports big is the emotional connection people have to it. Either because the just sympathies/likes the player, or because the player represent them in some regard, nation/city etc. Then there is of course the minority that watches just because they like the sport in itself, but that is a super minority. Additionally it is an issue because it means that the basis for enjoying a game is to have great understanding of what is going on, which mean that the people that start watching the game will like it as they won’t get it.
I know people like to argue against this, mainly because that the superior minority that enjoys the game just by itself are drawn to TL like flies to a lamp in the night, and thus people start to perceive it is as the norm. It is not, it is far from it and if you think that is a norm you are just plain wrong.
So if establish that emotion is the basis of sport then SC2 have a big problem. First are 99% of all the players that win / gets top 4 all from the same country, even the same city. That means that emotional connect through national representation goes out the window for SC2 (big problem). Then it is also plain boring that the same country wins everything cause it prevents any national tension or rivalry.
This problem is however even worse in SC2 due to Korean culture. First are Koreans almost nonexclusively monolingual Korean speaking, a language which extremely few people understand outside of Korea, thus making them unable to directly interact with an audience. The problem becomes more sever by the fact that Korean culture is honor driven and therefor teaches you to not express weakness in public and thus Koreans tend to be very introverted in public environments.
So to sum it up, the same nation wins all the time, thus making geographical connection close to zero, because it is always the same country winning people cheer for the underdog (everyone else) but because it very rarely happens that the underdog wins does the audience constantly get disappointed in SC2, then the people that do win all the time cannot directly interact with the audiences and as they do win makes an effort to express as little emotion as possible. Probably an event producers worst nightmare.
Koreans effect on this matter
Now of course you can say that all this not new, and to some extent it is not, but over the last year it became significantly worse. The main issue is KESPA. Korea went in an instant from having 90-95 out of the 100 best players in the world, which already was absurdly dominant, to have 190-195 out the best 200. The combination of WCS not being region locked and the competition being super strong in Korea removed any reason for Koreans to compete in the Korean region, except glory. Thus causing a flooding of all the other scenes. Further is SC2 almost entirely revolving around WCS, meaning that there is few other places to go.
Then there is a thing regarding Korean dominance of which I am uncertain what is cause and effect but it is a matter a fact that foreigners are starting to drop off. Stephano was the foreign hope for the longest time, if he had not been in the equation the Korea dominace would have been twice as severe during 2011-2012 were Stephano earned more prize money than any other SC2 player. The list keeps going, Idra, xlord, Jinro, Feast and oognis for instance have retired while other former carriers of foreign hope such as Huk and Sen (+Thorzain?) are fairly irrelevant. So while Korea got twice as strong has the foreign scene declined. So where Koreans before used to almost win everything before do they actually win everything now.
Now I realize that this was the case in BW but there are many difference now to then. First BW was a lot bigger in Korea and could therefor rely on Korea to much larger extent. Reversely is the foreign audience the driving force of SC2, it is what makes SC2 as an esport function. Third is the amount people that the game is supporting, professional players, casters, hosts, event producers and so on many times more now. Meaning that even if we could scale it down to the microcosm that was BW it is still going to put the majority of the people out of job.
So to summarize, we need to region lock WCS. From a competitive point of view it is wrong, but for viability of SC2 as a major esport it is a necessary. The flooding of Koreans to the other regions dissociates the audience with the players and also effect players in the way that it becomes harder and harder to justify playing SC2 as a full time due to limited chances of earning money. I think however you should be allowed to play were you live as it is not the few players like Polt, Demuslim and ForGG that is creating the issue. This should not be a matter of principles, it is a matter of building a system that SC2 as viable esport can prevail in.
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On August 15 2013 06:01 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 05:29 Smackzilla wrote:On August 15 2013 05:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
Fire the two lead game designs and actually bring on individuals who have experience within the community (IE Pros/retired pros/advocates for the game) to actually have a input and say in what happens with the game play.
Bring back Blizzard Invitational that was held in Brood War.
Get rid of the all at once battle and whoever pushes through win, make the game actually take some skill and require players to actually work instead of build basically one strategy and a move. (Flame me for this saying this statement, truly don't care about the community/game anymore in the current state with everything going on). I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth, but it sounds like you're saying making the game harder would grow the scene? If so, I have to completely disagree. 4.5 million+ copies of SC2 that have sold, but the multi-player/esports scene is *much* smaller than that. I really doubt that's because all the owner's of SC2 said to themselves "Man, if only I had to work harder at this game, I'd still be playing it". I come from 12 years of sc1 as opposed to 3.5 years in sc2 and I enjoyed Sc1 much more than Sc2. Reason being because it actually took alot of dedication and skill to be good and continue to stay at top performance. Guarantee that if they reverted the style of gameplay from how it is now to SC1 you would not see half of the crap you see now. Its been said on numerous occasions by numerous bw pros and competitors that sc2 is much more dumbed down and requires alot less skill and its frustrating to them as it is myself. Personally, I believe Blizzard made the game much more dumbed down and less skill intensive just for money value so they can sell more. But as I said thats just my opinion personally.
Don't think that's what Smackzilla was getting at. If Blizzard did what you said, they would most definitely have a better game. But better games don't necessarily have a big scene. It's simplicity that sells these days; what's shallow, shiny and instantly gratifying.
Like don't get me wrong, I agree with everything you're saying as a big old schooler myself (although not an ex-pro by any means) but at the same time you have to understand that in the current state of gaming that would only serve to further decrease SC2's playerbase.
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On August 15 2013 06:01 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 05:29 Smackzilla wrote:On August 15 2013 05:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
Fire the two lead game designs and actually bring on individuals who have experience within the community (IE Pros/retired pros/advocates for the game) to actually have a input and say in what happens with the game play.
Bring back Blizzard Invitational that was held in Brood War.
Get rid of the all at once battle and whoever pushes through win, make the game actually take some skill and require players to actually work instead of build basically one strategy and a move. (Flame me for this saying this statement, truly don't care about the community/game anymore in the current state with everything going on). I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth, but it sounds like you're saying making the game harder would grow the scene? If so, I have to completely disagree. 4.5 million+ copies of SC2 that have sold, but the multi-player/esports scene is *much* smaller than that. I really doubt that's because all the owner's of SC2 said to themselves "Man, if only I had to work harder at this game, I'd still be playing it". I come from 12 years of sc1 as opposed to 3.5 years in sc2 and I enjoyed Sc1 much more than Sc2. Reason being because it actually took alot of dedication and skill to be good and continue to stay at top performance. Guarantee that if they reverted the style of gameplay from how it is now to SC1 you would not see half of the crap you see now. Its been said on numerous occasions by numerous bw pros and competitors that sc2 is much more dumbed down and requires alot less skill and its frustrating to them as it is myself. Personally, I believe Blizzard made the game much more dumbed down and less skill intensive just for money value so they can sell more. But as I said thats just my opinion personally.
So do you think *your* experience and that of pro gamers is representative of gamers at large? Again, the topic here is how to grow the SC2 scene, and my hunch is that your particular frustration with SC2 has very little to do with a solution for growing the SC2 player base or tournament viewership. I really doubt that *most people* quit SC2 or never got into multi-player and esports because SC2 was too dumbed down or was too easy to play.
Personally, I think that if you can improve the SC2 scene, the solution will have nothing to do with hardcore play or making the game harder. I think that direction would probably hurt more than it helps.
I think free-to-play multi-player would help more. Also, perhaps giving an account a ladder rating for each race might encourage less-stressful and more-casual off-racing. Maybe people would explore the game more since there's less of a barrier to doing so.
That said, I still don't think SC2 will be the biggest esport. Even if SC2 is not harder than BW, it's less casual-friendly than its competitors. Its more stressful than its competitors. That is what will limit the scenes size. Appeal to hardcore BW fans will have nothing to do with it.
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A bunch of kids whining about balance and Korean domination. The fact of the matter is there simply isn't a massive potential viewer base for a game like SC2 or any RTS. Maybe Brood War was popular in Korea but it was a novelty at a time where there weren't games like LoL to occupy more casual people's times, and no one outside of Korea and a small core of foreign followers cared about the game. If Brood War was released the same time as these other 'esports' then it may have never done anything at all.
Games like LoL are popular in esports because of the f2p model instead of paying $40 or whatever, there are 10 players in a match to draw viewers opposed to 2, and it's a fairly simple game to understand with a lot of different possible variations in how a game can go with so many heroes and players. Whine all you want about Blizzard being a failure, Koreans, etc. but there aren't many people who want to spend all their time watching 3 races duke it out for more than a week or two before the novelty wears off. It's not like any RTS has ever been relatively popular in the world.
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On August 15 2013 06:01 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 05:29 Smackzilla wrote:On August 15 2013 05:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
Fire the two lead game designs and actually bring on individuals who have experience within the community (IE Pros/retired pros/advocates for the game) to actually have a input and say in what happens with the game play.
Bring back Blizzard Invitational that was held in Brood War.
Get rid of the all at once battle and whoever pushes through win, make the game actually take some skill and require players to actually work instead of build basically one strategy and a move. (Flame me for this saying this statement, truly don't care about the community/game anymore in the current state with everything going on). I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth, but it sounds like you're saying making the game harder would grow the scene? If so, I have to completely disagree. 4.5 million+ copies of SC2 that have sold, but the multi-player/esports scene is *much* smaller than that. I really doubt that's because all the owner's of SC2 said to themselves "Man, if only I had to work harder at this game, I'd still be playing it". I come from 12 years of sc1 as opposed to 3.5 years in sc2 and I enjoyed Sc1 much more than Sc2. Reason being because it actually took alot of dedication and skill to be good and continue to stay at top performance. Guarantee that if they reverted the style of gameplay from how it is now to SC1 you would not see half of the crap you see now. Its been said on numerous occasions by numerous bw pros and competitors that sc2 is much more dumbed down and requires alot less skill and its frustrating to them as it is myself. Personally, I believe Blizzard made the game much more dumbed down and less skill intensive just for money value so they can sell more. But as I said thats just my opinion personally.
So you want the Starcraft to go back to BW where only one country had a scene and the rest of the world pretty much ignored it as an esport?
You want to go back to the BW days where WC3 was the esport played by foreigners and starcraft was the esport played by Korea?
You want to go back to time when the world played other games than Starcraft?
Please, enlighten us. Show us how this "grows" the scene?
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Microing Kings and Queens. 16th, I will be doing something for our beloved starcraft. If you are located in Mississauga Ontario Canada, come to celebration square, beside square one 4pm-8pm. An act for the ages my friends, for the company and for the starcrafts!
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Maybe do the opposite of what brood war did? I mean, that scene is pretty dead, so maybe there's something to learn from that?
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On August 15 2013 09:17 tshi wrote:
Maybe do the opposite of what brood war did? I mean, that scene is pretty dead, so maybe there's something to learn from that?
of course the scene is dead with your attitude my American Comrade. Just put that U.S.A. patriotism into the game Starcraft is user grown not by the parent company!
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On August 15 2013 09:19 KhaliWear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 09:17 tshi wrote:
Maybe do the opposite of what brood war did? I mean, that scene is pretty dead, so maybe there's something to learn from that? of course the scene is dead with your attitude my American Comrade. Just put that U.S.A. patriotism into the game Starcraft is user grown not by the parent company!
It's hard when the parent company is fucking up so bad, haha. I like that joke someone made (iforget who) where they were like "I'll become Blizzard's new PR guy now that ROB Simpson was gone, 'ill just say "We understand and we are working on solving this problem" to everything that happens.
oh it was nony, i think
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On August 15 2013 09:49 tshi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 09:19 KhaliWear wrote:On August 15 2013 09:17 tshi wrote:
Maybe do the opposite of what brood war did? I mean, that scene is pretty dead, so maybe there's something to learn from that? of course the scene is dead with your attitude my American Comrade. Just put that U.S.A. patriotism into the game Starcraft is user grown not by the parent company! It's hard when the parent company is fucking up so bad, haha. I like that joke someone made (iforget who) where they were like "I'll become Blizzard's new PR guy now that ROB Simpson was gone, 'ill just say "We understand and we are working on solving this problem" to everything that happens. oh it was nony, i think
Rep what you love, nothing else will matter.
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On August 15 2013 08:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 06:01 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On August 15 2013 05:29 Smackzilla wrote:On August 15 2013 05:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
Fire the two lead game designs and actually bring on individuals who have experience within the community (IE Pros/retired pros/advocates for the game) to actually have a input and say in what happens with the game play.
Bring back Blizzard Invitational that was held in Brood War.
Get rid of the all at once battle and whoever pushes through win, make the game actually take some skill and require players to actually work instead of build basically one strategy and a move. (Flame me for this saying this statement, truly don't care about the community/game anymore in the current state with everything going on). I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth, but it sounds like you're saying making the game harder would grow the scene? If so, I have to completely disagree. 4.5 million+ copies of SC2 that have sold, but the multi-player/esports scene is *much* smaller than that. I really doubt that's because all the owner's of SC2 said to themselves "Man, if only I had to work harder at this game, I'd still be playing it". I come from 12 years of sc1 as opposed to 3.5 years in sc2 and I enjoyed Sc1 much more than Sc2. Reason being because it actually took alot of dedication and skill to be good and continue to stay at top performance. Guarantee that if they reverted the style of gameplay from how it is now to SC1 you would not see half of the crap you see now. Its been said on numerous occasions by numerous bw pros and competitors that sc2 is much more dumbed down and requires alot less skill and its frustrating to them as it is myself. Personally, I believe Blizzard made the game much more dumbed down and less skill intensive just for money value so they can sell more. But as I said thats just my opinion personally. So you want the Starcraft to go back to BW where only one country had a scene and the rest of the world pretty much ignored it as an esport? You want to go back to the BW days where WC3 was the esport played by foreigners and starcraft was the esport played by Korea? You want to go back to time when the world played other games than Starcraft? Please, enlighten us. Show us how this "grows" the scene?
Did he say those things?
No he didnt
why are you so negative?
i have no idea
Lets say sc2 was hard like broodwar, you actually believe only koreans would be good?
We have teamhouses outside of korea, the game is more streamlined. Its a much bigger game outside of korea, that means more people outside of korea will play.
People will try to earn a living outside of korea, more so than the total people who tried that in broodwar
I persnally believe people would have a more fun time playing the game.
You practice, you get better, and you feel it. And it feels great, you wanna play more.
Make a deathball with tight defence and than literally amove wouldnt work at all.
Someone wins a fight, and the game is far from over. Even lowlevels would have a funnier time with a game like that . They will feel imrpovement even if they are bronze, and no worry to build up your bases for 10min and than amoveattack and game is over
It can still be unlimited unit selection, have all your macrobuilding in one hotkey, automining, better unit pathing. Those things are not what makes a game "hardcore".
A skillfull game that lets both sides at all time show their skill and with that i wanna mention forcefield.
It lets protoss show their skill but their opponent not as much.
Thats not good
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On August 15 2013 10:34 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 08:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 15 2013 06:01 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On August 15 2013 05:29 Smackzilla wrote:On August 15 2013 05:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
Fire the two lead game designs and actually bring on individuals who have experience within the community (IE Pros/retired pros/advocates for the game) to actually have a input and say in what happens with the game play.
Bring back Blizzard Invitational that was held in Brood War.
Get rid of the all at once battle and whoever pushes through win, make the game actually take some skill and require players to actually work instead of build basically one strategy and a move. (Flame me for this saying this statement, truly don't care about the community/game anymore in the current state with everything going on). I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth, but it sounds like you're saying making the game harder would grow the scene? If so, I have to completely disagree. 4.5 million+ copies of SC2 that have sold, but the multi-player/esports scene is *much* smaller than that. I really doubt that's because all the owner's of SC2 said to themselves "Man, if only I had to work harder at this game, I'd still be playing it". I come from 12 years of sc1 as opposed to 3.5 years in sc2 and I enjoyed Sc1 much more than Sc2. Reason being because it actually took alot of dedication and skill to be good and continue to stay at top performance. Guarantee that if they reverted the style of gameplay from how it is now to SC1 you would not see half of the crap you see now. Its been said on numerous occasions by numerous bw pros and competitors that sc2 is much more dumbed down and requires alot less skill and its frustrating to them as it is myself. Personally, I believe Blizzard made the game much more dumbed down and less skill intensive just for money value so they can sell more. But as I said thats just my opinion personally. So you want the Starcraft to go back to BW where only one country had a scene and the rest of the world pretty much ignored it as an esport? You want to go back to the BW days where WC3 was the esport played by foreigners and starcraft was the esport played by Korea? You want to go back to time when the world played other games than Starcraft? Please, enlighten us. Show us how this "grows" the scene? Did he say those things? No he didnt why are you so negative? i have no idea Lets say sc2 was hard like broodwar, you actually believe only koreans would be good? We have teamhouses outside of korea, the game is more streamlined. Its a much bigger game outside of korea, that means more people outside of korea will play. People will try to earn a living outside of korea, more so than the total people who tried that in broodwar I persnally believe people would have a more fun time playing the game. You practice, you get better, and you feel it. And it feels great, you wanna play more. Make a deathball with tight defence and than literally amove wouldnt work at all. Someone wins a fight, and the game is far from over. Even lowlevels would have a funnier time with a game like that . They will feel imrpovement even if they are bronze, and no worry to build up your bases for 10min and than amoveattack and game is over It can still be unlimited unit selection, have all your macrobuilding in one hotkey, automining, better unit pathing. Those things are not what makes a game "hardcore". A skillfull game that lets both sides at all time show their skill and with that i wanna mention forcefield. It lets protoss show their skill but their opponent not as much. Thats not good
Preach!
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-Remove the colossus
-Remove Warpgate
-Fix Protoss
-Slow the game speed down. Battles should not end in 4 seconds; players should feel involved even when losing a battle.
-Remove "Blizzard time" in-game clock and give us real time like BW.
-Give us proper high ground advantage.
-Fix tanks
The reason SC2 isn't "as interesting" isn't because of mechanical difficulty (which hardly exists) it's because the game-play is based around death ball syndrome; just working on the issues noted above (that have been complained about for 3 years) would make the game a lot more interesting to play.
Basically a lot of the things that made BW so fun have been neglected by the SC2 team since release out of a stubborn sense of pride (remember these minds are the ones behind Warpgate which is probably the single most poorly designed thing in the history of Starcraft gameplay). These kind of gameplay fixes combined with continued improvements (it shouldn't take like 3 days to get max level. wtf?) to battle.net 2.0 (HotS was a strong start in that direction) could make SC2 the game it should've been at release.
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On August 15 2013 10:34 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 08:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 15 2013 06:01 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On August 15 2013 05:29 Smackzilla wrote:On August 15 2013 05:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
Fire the two lead game designs and actually bring on individuals who have experience within the community (IE Pros/retired pros/advocates for the game) to actually have a input and say in what happens with the game play.
Bring back Blizzard Invitational that was held in Brood War.
Get rid of the all at once battle and whoever pushes through win, make the game actually take some skill and require players to actually work instead of build basically one strategy and a move. (Flame me for this saying this statement, truly don't care about the community/game anymore in the current state with everything going on). I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth, but it sounds like you're saying making the game harder would grow the scene? If so, I have to completely disagree. 4.5 million+ copies of SC2 that have sold, but the multi-player/esports scene is *much* smaller than that. I really doubt that's because all the owner's of SC2 said to themselves "Man, if only I had to work harder at this game, I'd still be playing it". I come from 12 years of sc1 as opposed to 3.5 years in sc2 and I enjoyed Sc1 much more than Sc2. Reason being because it actually took alot of dedication and skill to be good and continue to stay at top performance. Guarantee that if they reverted the style of gameplay from how it is now to SC1 you would not see half of the crap you see now. Its been said on numerous occasions by numerous bw pros and competitors that sc2 is much more dumbed down and requires alot less skill and its frustrating to them as it is myself. Personally, I believe Blizzard made the game much more dumbed down and less skill intensive just for money value so they can sell more. But as I said thats just my opinion personally. So you want the Starcraft to go back to BW where only one country had a scene and the rest of the world pretty much ignored it as an esport? You want to go back to the BW days where WC3 was the esport played by foreigners and starcraft was the esport played by Korea? You want to go back to time when the world played other games than Starcraft? Please, enlighten us. Show us how this "grows" the scene? Did he say those things? No he didnt why are you so negative? i have no idea Lets say sc2 was hard like broodwar, you actually believe only koreans would be good? We have teamhouses outside of korea, the game is more streamlined. Its a much bigger game outside of korea, that means more people outside of korea will play. People will try to earn a living outside of korea, more so than the total people who tried that in broodwar I persnally believe people would have a more fun time playing the game. You practice, you get better, and you feel it. And it feels great, you wanna play more. Make a deathball with tight defence and than literally amove wouldnt work at all. Someone wins a fight, and the game is far from over. Even lowlevels would have a funnier time with a game like that . They will feel imrpovement even if they are bronze, and no worry to build up your bases for 10min and than amoveattack and game is over It can still be unlimited unit selection, have all your macrobuilding in one hotkey, automining, better unit pathing. Those things are not what makes a game "hardcore". A skillfull game that lets both sides at all time show their skill and with that i wanna mention forcefield. It lets protoss show their skill but their opponent not as much. Thats not good
Because when BW with its difficulty was around, the foreign scene instead supported the less mechanically demanding WC3
And when SC2 got big, the foreign scene shifted to the less mechanically demanding MOBA games.
The people who are upset that they are bronze will be upset whether they play BW, SC2, or tic-tac-toe. The people who only play casually and don't 1v1 competitively--they will go to whatever is the most casual friendly game.
It has all happened before, and it will all happen again.
I'm not being negative, I'm being pragmatic. In a thread that is attempting to discuss how to increase participation and viewership of the game, the last thing we need is to talk about making it MORE difficult for people to get good at it.
Why?
Because what's killing starcraft is not how much fewer clicks it takes to move an army. What's killing starcraft is not whether or not units are clumped or not.
The reason SC2 is behind in comparison to MOBA games is that more people play MOBA games than they play SC2.
Why?
Because it is less mechanically difficult to play a MOBA game. You have mouse clicks and 4-10 buttons. That's it. There are less buttons to worry about, less tedious tasks to manage, and less blame being doled on your failures.
MOBA games are not easy, and the upper echelons of its competitions will shred any BW/SC2 player thinking otherwise. But if you're a sub-bronze casual that logs in for 15-20 minutes a week, you can still play a MOBA game and feel like you're getting tasks done.
Can't kill the enemy players? Kill minions.
Dying all the time? Earning gold anyway--can still buy items.
3v1 on one of the lanes? Kill monsters in the jungle.
etc...
You can, as a noob, literally forget complete aspects of the game and still be fighting for half an hour to an hour. You can fight bots because you're playing with 4 other crappy players and you don't feel alone.
You know something League of Legends have over SC2 that is very relevant? Government support. The US is willing to help LoL players with their Visas because the US Government thinks they're legit enough as a sport. Why? Because they have a big enough base for the US government to take them seriously.
Now we can easily go down the road of "harder game makes each successful blah blah blah worth it!" "people will feel like they earn their wins" etc...
But do you honestly feel that the gold player who is sick of losing 50% of his games no matter how hard he tries would feel better if the game was harder to play?
Here's the truth; the difficulty of the game does not matter. Chess isn't popular because it is hard, it is popular because people enjoy playing it. Futbol is not popular because it is hard, it is popular because people enjoy playing it.
When the scene starts talking about players more than it talks about race, balance, and mechanics, only then can a scene grow.
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On August 10 2013 00:19 Foxxan wrote:
The battle can end in an instant and its over.
THe deathball syndrome, which makes it really hard to
1) Get units outside the deathball to do some small battle/harassment
Get 3base, saturat, now macro up
Thats the standard thing which is terrible terrible terrible
I think this is the reason it hasn't, at least, kept more it's original player base.
This game, as awesome as it is, doesn't seem committed to true-RTS play.
There aren't small skirmishes anymore; that was Starcraft, or so I was thinking.
(I was terrible at BW).
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Guys, not to be that guy.. but I think this discussion about how skill requiring the game is pointless x) That is not the issue so you can drop it. Only a fraction of the audience would even notice it.
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My idea would be that blizzard sells the whole starcraft2 franchise to valve and that they develop the final addon.
I am not even kidding .. , dota was "kind of" a blizzard franchise once too, its succesor of course still has its flaws but just try to imagine how the game would have turned out if blizzard had made it (which they didnt because they thought of dota not beeing a good enough game to develop a succesor in the first place ) ...
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Cash flow, that's the most important thing we can do. If organisations are to pay on time we have to start paying for content more (subscriptions, passes, donations...). Of course the problem is how the money gets spend, for example MLG's inefficiency and so on...
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I got it! ... Starcraft 3!
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On August 15 2013 11:34 DemigodcelpH wrote:
-Remove the colossus
-Remove Warpgate
-Fix Protoss
-Slow the game speed down. Battles should not end in 4 seconds; players should feel involved even when losing a battle.
-Remove "Blizzard time" in-game clock and give us real time like BW.
-Give us proper high ground advantage.
-Fix tanks
The reason SC2 isn't "as interesting" isn't because of mechanical difficulty (which hardly exists) it's because the game-play is based around death ball syndrome; just working on the issues noted above (that have been complained about for 3 years) would make the game a lot more interesting to play.
Basically a lot of the things that made BW so fun have been neglected by the SC2 team since release out of a stubborn sense of pride (remember these minds are the ones behind Warpgate which is probably the single most poorly designed thing in the history of Starcraft gameplay). These kind of gameplay fixes combined with continued improvements (it shouldn't take like 3 days to get max level. wtf?) to battle.net 2.0 (HotS was a strong start in that direction) could make SC2 the game it should've been at release.
I have to agree, I've been asking myself If I really enjoy playing Sc2 lately and the resounding answer I get from myself is I don't really enjoy macroing up to 185/200 and posturing around the middle of the map while using 15 supply to harass until someone fucks up.
It's not fun, I'd like to be able to have more than one real battle, I'd like to not have a big giant battle and I would like to feel more involved in the fights.
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On August 15 2013 11:34 DemigodcelpH wrote:
-Remove the colossus
-Remove Warpgate
-Fix Protoss
-Slow the game speed down. Battles should not end in 4 seconds; players should feel involved even when losing a battle.
-Remove "Blizzard time" in-game clock and give us real time like BW.
-Give us proper high ground advantage.
-Fix tanks
The reason SC2 isn't "as interesting" isn't because of mechanical difficulty (which hardly exists) it's because the game-play is based around death ball syndrome; just working on the issues noted above (that have been complained about for 3 years) would make the game a lot more interesting to play.
Basically a lot of the things that made BW so fun have been neglected by the SC2 team since release out of a stubborn sense of pride (remember these minds are the ones behind Warpgate which is probably the single most poorly designed thing in the history of Starcraft gameplay). These kind of gameplay fixes combined with continued improvements (it shouldn't take like 3 days to get max level. wtf?) to battle.net 2.0 (HotS was a strong start in that direction) could make SC2 the game it should've been at release.
Basically you agree with me that ...
- economic speed boosts,
- production speed boosts,
- unlimited unit selection and
- clumped up unit movement
have to go. These four general mechanics are the reason why there are too many units on the battlefield AND they are in a too small area. More units in a smaller area means the army dps per area is higher and thus the kill speed ... which reduces the duration of battles.
An analogy I came up with is that SC2 is a gunfight in a western. You have two guys standing on opposite ends of an empty lane and whoever pulls out his gun first wins. Any decent hit is lethal. In comparison BW is more like a duel of two knights with sword and shield ... much slower AND you have the opportunity to defend with your shield, which means that you can micro your units to save them in a battle. In SC2 that is only very very rarely possible, because the game has been designed with aggression (=offense) in mind and not with a balance between offense and defense.
I really like battles of micro skill like we get to see in the "Zergling phase" at the beginning of a ZvZ and I absolutely hate the non-skill mass battles and "impossible to counter" skills like Abduct and Fungal Growth. I also hate the explosive shots of Siege Tanks, because they only give the illusion of dealing damage while not doing much at all against Zerglings.
Warp Gate would only be ok if there was a choice to be made between "Gateways producing units faster" or "Warp Gates producing units slower but anywhere with power". The production difference needs to be significant!
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I have honestly been thinking about why I dislike SC2 since the game came out, and what they could do to fix it, and I just don't think it is possible with the games current engine. I would sell my soul for a DOTA2 style rework on broodwar. Maybe I'm just a negative-nancy or a broodwar fanboy, feel free to flame me for that. But I hope people understand that most people that still play broodwar WANT to like SC2 so bad, but the game is like a completely different genre to me.
This thread is full of interesting ideas, and I'm so glad the community wants SC2 to be a better game. Blizzard, however, is clearly not interested in these kinds of ideas though. Didn't the head SC2 guy say when people asked him if they would ever make SC2 more like BW, that people who wanna play BW should just play BW?
And I'm not even saying the game should be more like Broodwar per-say, I just think the game should incorporate the same style, because really the only thing they really have in common is unit names.
I will follow SC2 until LotV, and I will hope and pray that by then we have a worthy successor, because like I said, I WANT to love and play SC2 like I love and play broodwar even now.
I don't believe for a second though, that they will change the game engine at all with the unit clumping etc, or that they will change major race mechanics like warpgates, or even stuff like defenders advantage. I wish they would prove me wrong.
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On August 15 2013 20:55 sh4w wrote:
I have honestly been thinking about why I dislike SC2 since the game came out, and what they could do to fix it, and I just don't think it is possible with the games current engine. I would sell my soul for a DOTA2 style rework on broodwar. Maybe I'm just a negative-nancy or a broodwar fanboy, feel free to flame me for that. But I hope people understand that most people that still play broodwar WANT to like SC2 so bad, but the game is like a completely different genre to me.
This thread is full of interesting ideas, and I'm so glad the community wants SC2 to be a better game. Blizzard, however, is clearly not interested in these kinds of ideas though. Didn't the head SC2 guy say when people asked him if they would ever make SC2 more like BW, that people who wanna play BW should just play BW?
And I'm not even saying the game should be more like Broodwar per-say, I just think the game should incorporate the same style, because really the only thing they really have in common is unit names.
I will follow SC2 until LotV, and I will hope and pray that by then we have a worthy successor, because like I said, I WANT to love and play SC2 like I love and play broodwar even now.
I don't believe for a second though, that they will change the game engine at all with the unit clumping etc, or that they will change major race mechanics like warpgates, or even stuff like defenders advantage. I wish they would prove me wrong.
There is a difference between
"I miss the small skirmishes in BW"
and
"Bring back the lurker!"
One misses the aspect of BW that they enjoyed.
The other misses BW as a game in and of itself.
There is nothing wrong with missing the abstract aspects that made BW a joy to watch, but the specificity of unit design/gameplay mechanics is not what will bring those back.
What's needed is a triad of rock-paper-scissor map mechanic that encourages multi-skirmish tactics.
-Expanding should be better than turtling
-So expansions should be far away from each other so they're difficult to defend
-Attacking then becomes better than expanding
-So defensive advantage must be high enough that turtling defeats attacking
-Resources must then be scarce, in order to encourage expanding
This was perfectly embodied in the small/midsized maps of 2010-2011 wherein the action was non-stop because expansions were so easy to hit. When a person turtled on 2base, the opponent would grab a third, upon grabbing his opponent grabbing a third, the turtler would shift to flat out aggression. Once that starts, one usually lost the third and turtled in response. The turtler then expands, causing the a counterattack.
Remember Xel'Naga? How the gold bases were barely mined usually having 2-4 different town halls built on it per game.
Or Shakuras where the map would be split and they would constantly trade each other's 4rths?
Or do you remember how great the Scrap Station games were to watch up until the rocks fell down and suddenly it was steppes of war?
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Mod edit: No
User was warned for this post
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On August 11 2013 04:47 Rumpus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 03:40 chatuka wrote:On August 11 2013 03:35 Rumpus wrote:On August 11 2013 03:22 crms wrote:On August 09 2013 23:23 Esoterikk wrote:
It's up to Blizzard to fix the game on a fundamental level, unfortunately Blizzard is the least likely to do anything because sc2 isn't their main source of income. not as eloquent as needed but basically this. if sc2 was a better game i'd be all up in that shiz. I'm itching for RTS but I can't really fool myself into playing SC2 just because it's 'starcraft' and the only real competitive option. Yup, but income or not I don't think they really see it as something they care about. I highly doubt Valve or Riot went into their games thinking "this won't be big so lets half ass it!" No they found ways to monetize and grow and cultivate and put new, interesting features and content into their games. They spent time, money, and brain-power making it that much better, and with quality will come people willing to pay (...if money is all your after). Blizzard doesn't/hasn't done that at all. They have done nothing but prove 1 of 2 things; they don't care or they're having some serious time/managerial issues within the company and its development process. I'm going to vote a nice mix of both considering the amount we've seen from Blizzard in the content department over 3 years. Compare that to what Valve has done with DOTA2 in about 2 years. At the very least you think Blizzard (which I think is just too much of a stubborn,old kook type of company, the kind that is just too big and too arrogant to get anything done) would see these good ideas and take note, attempt implementations of their own. But they don't, they hide in their offices, do a horrific job of communicating, and apparently get nothing done. Also LoL was also a freemium product where SC2 was never free and never available on LAN which could make it explode in PC cafes in Korea and China. I would have definetely made SC2 cheaper and or free with a freemium model. Let the competitive players with huge egos spend the money to upgrade and spend money for gold league/GM league access plus accessories . I saw a great idea early, whether it was in this thread or another about making multiplayer aspects free and campaign and the arcade a monetized service in some capacity. Either way free helps but there is a lot of context to that that I never see anyone explain and it always get it. I have no problem paying for a game, honestly I don't think really any game is worth $50-60 anymore but there are a lot of factors, but what does bother me is paying money for a game and then downloading a free one that has more features, events, and a gross amount of content and items/drop mechanics....pretty much all free. If Blizzard had SC2 launch with new interesting features, smart and genuinely fun and good additions, I would drop money on it no problem, but they've taken years of development, and my money for nothing in comparison to what Valve has done with DOTA2. How do you justify that at all? I've said it a million times, make a quality product, make an interesting, good invest and people will buy it fairly regardless. But when you see Valve do DOTA2 and all they put into it, trying harder and harder to push limits. While Blizzard just...does nothing but destroy its own eSports image, let alone let the game rot away...it's sad.
Well said.
I have more fun reading this thread than playing the game.
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One of the biggest factors towards Valve's success is its focus on ingame personalization. I'm talking about the various cosmetic items in TF2 (hats) and in DotA 2 (costumes). When I play TF2, I'm not just some random Spy that looks just like every other Spy, no, I have a yellow hat (Fancy Fedora), a yellow turtleneck beneath my sharp suit (Rogue's Col Roule), and a team-colored scarf that matches my suit (Merc's Pride). Do any of these items make me better at what I do? No, on the contrary, the bright yellow apparel makes it easier for enemies to spot me when I'm sneaking around. However, when I take out that Heavy/Medic combo ravaging my team, they will remember that Eternal Dalek, the Spy in yellow, ended their killstreak.
Basically, just add more options for personalization to give people a sense of achievement and ownership. Perhaps alternate color schemes (dark protoss instead of golden protoss), or alternate skins for buildings such as an infested look for terran, or a hybrid look for protoss and zerg. Each building and unit would still be recognizable and distinguishable, but they would look subtly different.
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Blizzard should swallow the pride in their digital download service and release a bundle on steam with bw, sc2 and Hots for a good discount the first week or so. I dare say that around 80-85 % of pc gamers use steam and a bundle like that would make it easier to find and get into the game. Normally, you can get WoL + HoTS for like 60-80 dollars, which is a real turnoff for some people. I think that a steam bundle would help tremendously.
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How to get more people interested in starcraft? Money! Money makes people interested in all sorts of things.
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Updated and a poll been put in
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I genuinely feel Starcraft is growing. I think everyone is starting to get over the pity we have put on ourselves for not being number 1 in e sports. Blizzard recently stated they are looking into region locking, they continue to buff/nerf and let's not forget there is still an expansion left.
For me personally, I get discouraged at the amount of games I have to play in order to rank up. The new system seems to demote players at the start of the season due to the fact you can no longer be demoted during the season. I work full time so it's frustrating to go from diamond one season, to plat to start out the next season, finish rank 2 plat, only to get demoted again the next season to gold. Something isn't right there...
I think the gameplay can definitely be tweaked, but the precedent has been set with SC2 wol and hots, so I don't know how Blizz can change anything like game speed or unit pathing at this point.
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I think now even TL regulars start to realize that they have to invest time and passion into sc2 if they want to make it grow. In the case of SCBW i loved tons of threads with tutorials, instructions etc...people trying to figure out stuff and tring some crazy things. I loved and hated ICCUP...
There are already great sc2 projects...but most of the community only consumes...cause Valve/Riot serves them everything on a plate for free.
I complained a lot about sc2 until i joined an small practise group...now it is really fun cause you can improve daily.
I will try to join daily cups when i am back home although i am only in silver/gold league.
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Like one popular diablo3 streamer (baudusau) already said...it is easy to blame the developer for missing features. Finding your own way around it or creating something that is fun for you in that game that is an real challenge.
In Diablo3 a lot of people are doing legendary competitions...
In Starcraft2 i miss that kind of attitude on the majority of the community. Even if you dont have ideas...support people who ideas and real passion instead of non stop complaining.
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Big tournaments need to be more exclusive. And please no more noobs in the pro-scene, like incontrol who always says he is in the best shape of his life, or idra, or tlo and others who cant really compete on the highest level.
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On October 16 2013 00:28 Orangered wrote:
Big tournaments need to be more exclusive. And please no more noobs in the pro-scene, like incontrol who always says he is in the best shape of his life, or idra, or tlo and others who cant really compete on the highest level.
Sorry to burst your bubble brah, but welcome to 2013 idra and incontrol are already retired as players, pretty much the same thing for TLO
edit:
though TLO is still competing despite health problems, and doing kinda good.
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woah why u flaming tlo he did fine in his recent events.
the reason sc2 is on the decline is because the hype is mostly gone and the game is just plain too hard for most people and most ppl are simply watching and not playing.
sc2 is just way too hard and stressful to be enjoyed. unlike the alternatives like dota and lol.
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On October 16 2013 00:39 aintz wrote:
woah why u flaming tlo he did fine in his recent events.
the reason sc2 is on the decline is because the hype is mostly gone and the game is just plain too hard for most people and most ppl are simply watching and not playing.
sc2 is just way too hard and stressful to be enjoyed. unlike the alternatives like dota and lol.
nice how u make Sc2 way to hard and downplay Dota and LoL.
can't be possible that all 3 games are just as hard and stressful hm?.
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Make SC2 Multiplayer for free, Arcade maps and other stuff (Skins, animations) should be sold on an "Arcade map market place" or something. People who bought the full game will still have everything for free.
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On October 16 2013 00:43 rasers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 00:39 aintz wrote:
woah why u flaming tlo he did fine in his recent events.
the reason sc2 is on the decline is because the hype is mostly gone and the game is just plain too hard for most people and most ppl are simply watching and not playing.
sc2 is just way too hard and stressful to be enjoyed. unlike the alternatives like dota and lol. nice how u make Sc2 way to hard and downplay Dota and LoL. can't be possible that all 3 games are just as hard and stressful hm?.
ive played alot of games at high levels (css in cal-m, wow 3v3 against many mlg teams, dota2 against pro players, sc2 in high masters)
sc2 is by far the hardest game and requires the most practise to get better because it is a much more complex game than your fps and moba. its a very good game if i have nothing to do and want to tryhard at something. not a very good game when i just want to chill.
have you played dota/lol/hon? those games are jokes compared to sc2 in terms of skill.
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On October 16 2013 01:22 Crackpot wrote:
Make SC2 Multiplayer for free, Arcade maps and other stuff (Skins, animations) should be sold on an "Arcade map market place" or something. People who bought the full game will still have everything for free.
No. This isn't a MOBA. This is a buy to play game and always will be. Starter edition is enough for people to try the game to see if they like it.
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On October 16 2013 01:23 aintz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 00:43 rasers wrote:On October 16 2013 00:39 aintz wrote:
woah why u flaming tlo he did fine in his recent events.
the reason sc2 is on the decline is because the hype is mostly gone and the game is just plain too hard for most people and most ppl are simply watching and not playing.
sc2 is just way too hard and stressful to be enjoyed. unlike the alternatives like dota and lol. nice how u make Sc2 way to hard and downplay Dota and LoL. can't be possible that all 3 games are just as hard and stressful hm?. ive played alot of games at high levels (css in cal-m, wow 3v3 against many mlg teams, dota2 against pro players, sc2 in high masters) sc2 is by far the hardest game and requires the most practise to get better because it is a much more complex game than your fps and moba. its a very good game if i have nothing to do and want to tryhard at something. not a very good game when i just want to chill. have you played dota/lol/hon? those games are jokes compared to sc2 in terms of skill.
ive played alot of games at high levels (css in cal-m, wow 3v3 against many mlg teams, dota2 against pro players, sc2 in high masters)
Mobas are by far the hardest game and requires the most practise to get better because they are much more complex game than your RTS. its a very good kind of game if i have nothing to do and want to tryhard at something. not a very good game when i just want to chill.
have you played SC2 this game is a joke compared to dota/lol/hon in terms of skill.
NICE i did it 2. now we both just talk out of our asses.
No one cares how freaking OMG pro u are. and saying "it's the hardest." also means nothing. no reason why and whatsoever.
to me it rather sounds that u don't have any idea of the depth of "mobas". but hey u played vs pros in pubs or some low shit tournaments. must mean somethign hm?.
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this thread is not about the hardest game or if mobas are better or worse...its about finding ideas to make sc2 grow.
My next suggestion is that people trying to reduce their elitism and start to contribute instead of bashing newbies.
I tried to read strategy forum on TL today after a long time...a lot of harsh answers...
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On October 16 2013 05:12 cutler wrote:
this thread is not about the hardest game or if mobas are better or worse...its about finding ideas to make sc2 grow.
My next suggestion is that people trying to reduce their elitism and start to contribute instead of bashing newbies.
I tried to read strategy forum on TL today after a long time...a lot of harsh answers...
I agree, butI actually think the community is going in the right direction as we are seeing a lot of maps that try many of the "suggested" improved gameplay stuff, and they can be really cool to play (even if it is just to try something new, see something different), so at least there are people trying to show that their ideas actually work!
Now we just need more people actually testing these maps and not just randomly saying stuff like "but this will be imbalanced, this will suck do this instead" without trying it themselves!
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On October 16 2013 02:55 Applesmack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 01:22 Crackpot wrote:
Make SC2 Multiplayer for free, Arcade maps and other stuff (Skins, animations) should be sold on an "Arcade map market place" or something. People who bought the full game will still have everything for free.
No. This isn't a MOBA. This is a buy to play game and always will be. Starter edition is enough for people to try the game to see if they like it.
MOBA? Why a MOBA ? I said nothing about any MOBA ? There are plenty of other free2play - models out there, even the Battlefield franchise has a free2play game.
But that is interesting, as soon as people want to talk about change something in StarCraft 2, others compare it in general with MOBAs or particular with LoL. Why?
LoL is no game made for progaming imo, it is not balanced and has tons of imbalanced matchup possibilities, it is just fun or fun to watch. If you play a StarCraft 2 1o1 match you can count on that the guy who plays the better match/tactics/decisions will win. Of course some races are easier, but it depends on personality and playstyle. In MOBAs exist heroes who doesn't have any chance against specific other heroes and when you picked the wrong ones, your game is doomed from the beginning.
I still think my SC2 free2play model would work fine with any kind of gamers.
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Russian Federation262 Posts
1. Force to F2P model
2. Create as much achievements as you can
3. Upgrade Battle.net with something interesting, maybe a Live-chat on a main screen, which players could not quit
4. Fix "army dead in 1sec" problem
5. Create a good marketing platform, especially in Korea
6. Implement a Region Lock into WCS system
7. Support more "small" tournaments
8. Adopt the game for newjoiners: built-in build-orders which can be viewed ingame, guides, etc
9. Maybe create a small department in Blizzard, which will provide a Gaming Houses rent in Korea
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At first, I do not think it makes any sense if you tell what Blizzard has to or has not do. This is just my opinion, I don't want to discourage you from doing it.
To the comparisons with MOBAs: To me it is like comparing apples with pears, as if one says that tennis is better than badminton, and that badminton has to us a tennis racket to become more popular.
My proposal would be the following:
Even if Blizzard is doing what they want (I personally do not think so, but ok), it would be more helpful to propose something what we as a community can do.
Stop bragging about starcraft or blizzard! Be positive, tell everyone that you like the game, if you do so. If not, then go play something else. It could save you from a heart attack.
Go to offline events, take friends with you and cheer for players loudly! All in all, stop spreading a "baaaw the game is dying"-mood. Instead create a positive atmosphere
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Russian Federation262 Posts
On October 17 2013 17:53 papalion wrote:At first, I do not think it makes any sense if you tell what Blizzard has to or has not do. This is just my opinion, I don't want to discourage you from doing it. To the comparisons with MOBAs: To me it is like comparing apples with pears, as if one says that tennis is better than badminton, and that badminton has to us a tennis racket to become more popular. My proposal would be the following: Even if Blizzard is doing what they want (I personally do not think so, but ok), it would be more helpful to propose something what we as a community can do. Stop bragging about starcraft or blizzard! Be positive, tell everyone that you like the game, if you do so. If not, then go play something else. It could save you from a heart attack. Go to offline events, take friends with you and cheer for players loudly! All in all, stop spreading a "baaaw the game is dying"-mood. Instead create a positive atmosphere
Agreed, please, follow this!
Also, i'd love to see something in Battle.net, which can help people to communicate better and force them to play more competive matches, standart custom games, maybe small automated built-in tournaments every week or twice a week (as i remember, something similar was in WC3)
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On October 17 2013 17:53 papalion wrote:At first, I do not think it makes any sense if you tell what Blizzard has to or has not do. This is just my opinion, I don't want to discourage you from doing it. To the comparisons with MOBAs: To me it is like comparing apples with pears, as if one says that tennis is better than badminton, and that badminton has to us a tennis racket to become more popular. My proposal would be the following: Even if Blizzard is doing what they want (I personally do not think so, but ok), it would be more helpful to propose something what we as a community can do. Stop bragging about starcraft or blizzard! Be positive, tell everyone that you like the game, if you do so. If not, then go play something else. It could save you from a heart attack. Go to offline events, take friends with you and cheer for players loudly! All in all, stop spreading a "baaaw the game is dying"-mood. Instead create a positive atmosphere
wrong.
your example of badminton and tennis is wrong because that is like asking RTS to be reworked to be more similar to MOBA.
If both games are supposed to be spectator interesting, then obviously you can learn from one and another.
Even badminton had to change their scoring rules to keep the match more entertaining:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/144589-the-new-badminton-rules/
was it because of tennis? possibly not.
did it learn from tennis? possibly not.
but one thing we know is that games can be improved upon and sometimes you CAN analysis and find out the ways and means to improve the game.
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Making custom maps function as a ladder would be a good feature. I mean separate ladder with separate MMR for each map or map pool.
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It is up to Blizzard, Starcraft 2 in the beginning has been marketed to death by hardcore Starcraft fans and sponsors (both from BW and War3). A decent game doesn't need excessive marketing if it stands good on its own (especially in today's information age). SC2 itself is a good game, but it being hyped as BW's successor is still an overstatement.
Battle.net 2.0 is an utter failure since it totally neglects the accessbility from Asian gamers, a no LAN, P2P system with expansion is beyond ridiculous for afterschool Asian kids who want to have fun in a PC cafe. Remember how the west got into the professional BW, or even Warcraft 3? Yes Korean leagues. Korea has always been the forerunner of RTS esports and Blizzard's first decision is to fuck it up with Bnet 2.0 and the Kespa issue.
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On October 16 2013 05:03 rasers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 01:23 aintz wrote:On October 16 2013 00:43 rasers wrote:On October 16 2013 00:39 aintz wrote:
woah why u flaming tlo he did fine in his recent events.
the reason sc2 is on the decline is because the hype is mostly gone and the game is just plain too hard for most people and most ppl are simply watching and not playing.
sc2 is just way too hard and stressful to be enjoyed. unlike the alternatives like dota and lol. nice how u make Sc2 way to hard and downplay Dota and LoL. can't be possible that all 3 games are just as hard and stressful hm?. ive played alot of games at high levels (css in cal-m, wow 3v3 against many mlg teams, dota2 against pro players, sc2 in high masters) sc2 is by far the hardest game and requires the most practise to get better because it is a much more complex game than your fps and moba. its a very good game if i have nothing to do and want to tryhard at something. not a very good game when i just want to chill. have you played dota/lol/hon? those games are jokes compared to sc2 in terms of skill. ive played alot of games at high levels (css in cal-m, wow 3v3 against many mlg teams, dota2 against pro players, sc2 in high masters) Mobas are by far the hardest game and requires the most practise to get better because they are much more complex game than your RTS. its a very good kind of game if i have nothing to do and want to tryhard at something. not a very good game when i just want to chill. have you played SC2 this game is a joke compared to dota/lol/hon in terms of skill. NICE i did it 2. now we both just talk out of our asses. No one cares how freaking OMG pro u are. and saying "it's the hardest." also means nothing. no reason why and whatsoever. to me it rather sounds that u don't have any idea of the depth of "mobas". but hey u played vs pros in pubs or some low shit tournaments. must mean somethign hm?.
It's not about the difference between pros and casuals or even the games depth. Playing an RTS (not just SC2) is stressful and difficult. You're also completely on your own and any loss is 100% on you. Go onto any random gaming board and read threads on why people quit RTS but in particular games like SC2. They're just littered with people saying they quit because the game was too hard or stressful or whatever. A pretty common sentiment is that they go play MOBA's because it's less stressful. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are better or that they are closer to pro level but they feel less stressed and under less pressure (and they have someone to blame when they fuck up).
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Make it so PC bangs can purchase SC2 versions at a reasonably low price.
Make it so multiplayer becomes F2P either from the beginning, or after a couple of months.
Create more attractive opportunities to feature sponsors.
Don´t be afraid to significantly change the game, come LotV.
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On October 17 2013 15:42 wishr wrote:
1. Force to F2P model
2. Create as much achievements as you can
3. Upgrade Battle.net with something interesting, maybe a Live-chat on a main screen, which players could not quit
4. Fix "army dead in 1sec" problem
5. Create a good marketing platform, especially in Korea
6. Implement a Region Lock into WCS system
7. Support more "small" tournaments
8. Adopt the game for newjoiners: built-in build-orders which can be viewed ingame, guides, etc
9. Maybe create a small department in Blizzard, which will provide a Gaming Houses rent in Korea
cool
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Make the WoL campaign f2p.
Reward a lot of playing, like give HotS for free at 2000 ladderwins.
Lower the price of the game and the expaansions.
The community needs to not look down on lowet league players. Smurfing can be very discouraging for the smurfed!
Make battle.net a more social experience right from the start, and fix some interface problems.
Make it easier to organize smaller tournaments and clanwars ingame.
Direct access to streams and progames ingame.
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I like the skin/item trading system of dota2 and betting items- stream the game. Bliz implemented the exp and portriat thing and still they need to keep on doing it. better if it can be traded and farmed. I want to see more skins, even like a little zergling horn or just minor color detail, or even like an extra hydra arm or something. You cant just stop at tier ones and supplies.
It makes the longetivity of the game better.
Also the less pressure because I play with other people, maybe some better maps or balance is needed for 3v3 and 4v4. Just enough for the casuals to dive in, and if they want to be serious and play better then can go 1v1.
also free access to tournaments watch live using the Sc2 client. Watch your friend's game of what he is watching, a semi alt tab chat. that I must commend valve because it made dota compete with the moba dota 1 copies.
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On October 17 2013 17:53 papalion wrote:
To the comparisons with MOBAs: To me it is like comparing apples with pears, as if one says that tennis is better than badminton, and that badminton has to us a tennis racket to become more popular.
Aren't MOBA's are generally better to watch because they are team sports?
Starcraft is like golf, tennis, swimming, darts, gymnastics, snooker, chess, marathon
MOBA's are like basketball, futbol, rugby, baseball.
I'm not sure why the latter group of sports are more exciting to most people, but I think they are. And that's a disadvantage that Starcraft will always have and can really do nothing about (the closest solution now is the GSTL type format, which makes it like a track or swimming relay).
It really isn't about skill. I know that the 13 year old gymnast from china is probably as athletic and skilled as Lebron. I just can't relate though.
Also, I personally watch all of the first group of sports that are included in the Olympics when it comes around, but I really don't want to watch swimming year round...
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On October 16 2013 05:12 cutler wrote:
this thread is not about the hardest game or if mobas are better or worse...its about finding ideas to make sc2 grow.
My next suggestion is that people trying to reduce their elitism and start to contribute instead of bashing newbies.
I tried to read strategy forum on TL today after a long time...a lot of harsh answers...
exactly. and i think the root of the issue here is deciding if we think the best way for sc2 to grow is to support the ability for new or casual players to enter the game, or support the hardcore competitive players to continue playing the game (or obviously a compromise).
my opinion is that for growth we must support as many new players as possible without compromising the core competitiveness of the game. this means deciding what we NEED for top-tier sc2 and what we can strip down and change to allow for newcomers. complexity isn`t necessarily depth, and the ability for the masses to improve at the game and stay engaged is just as important in my mind as the ability for consistent strategic and competitive complexity to emerge within the game.
mobas these days are often updated, giving players an engagement with the changing balance and meta-game - but this approach sacrifices the things we are so comfortable with in starcraft. concrete build orders, community guides and in-depth analysis of games played over a lengthy period of time, etc. starcraft has one hell of a community holding it together - and it didn`t come from nowhere.
if we do approach this from the other angle, we have to try and see what is holding us back as a community. what makes community difficult in sc2, what holds us back from enjoying tournaments and getting together for barcrafts, etc. what do players struggle with when finding practice partners or new methods or improving aside from mass-laddering. how can we make this community support itself better, even if it means making it a little less approachable for players who aren`t likely to get ` ìnto ` it anyway.
aaaaand i need to sleep...
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To gain new players, they *HAVE TO* fix their ridiculous 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 errors.
It's not possible to play a 4v4 without lag (changing to low doesn't change anything).
The entire team- play thing is kind of broken as it results in a all in to one play who isn't able to defend (because the mate is miles away) in a lot cases.
Blizzard's mistake was to be focused on 1v1 only.
Restricting custom maps, screw up BNet 2.0 and disallow private networks is another mistake they'll hopefully pay for.
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On October 17 2013 15:42 wishr wrote:
1. Force to F2P model
2. Create as much achievements as you can
3. Upgrade Battle.net with something interesting, maybe a Live-chat on a main screen, which players could not quit
4. Fix "army dead in 1sec" problem
5. Create a good marketing platform, especially in Korea
6. Implement a Region Lock into WCS system
7. Support more "small" tournaments
8. Adopt the game for newjoiners: built-in build-orders which can be viewed ingame, guides, etc
9. Maybe create a small department in Blizzard, which will provide a Gaming Houses rent in Korea
1. Agreed, but not before the rest of the model is completed.
2. Agreed, Achievements like different unit models (Including Skins,models, Animations, Sounds, -random example: lasershooting marines), personalize your army.
If it is a free2play model, it needs a map-store for Arcade maps.
3. Agreed, Auto join "Lobby Chat" like in Broodwar, automatically creating new Lobby Chats after one chat is full.
3a)
This is a good one, I think everyone will agree. The Twitch chat is pretty nice, but wouldn't it be much better if the new Battle.net launcher would have an integrated WCS-Streaming-Window including a SC2-WCS-Chatroom ? (Besides the planned Friendchat) - just an idea
4. They should just show (like in every other common sport) some kind of a live short slow-mo replay of important events. I know that the game continues while the replay is showed but I think its no problem, it works with other sports as well.
5. What do you want more when its for free?
6. I don't know.
7. Agreed, The WCS-Stream (3a) should stream more than just the official wcs-tournaments.
8. No way, people should play for fun in the first line, not to learn build orders and stuff. People will learn this by themselves anyway.
9.WCS - Planet
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1. Rework the arcade
2. Add a weekly "campaign mission" which doesn't really have to add anything to the lore but bring people to play the game at least once a week to to try to clean the zerg army blocking Jim's raynor way to the bar. The next week you have to hold the bar against the waves of zerg army etc. (It can also be some coop mission from times to times)
3. Add some special features to FFA, 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4. More map turnover, more fun features on the map (healing area, TP areas, lava flooding some areas of the map, mineral and vespene gas spawning etc.). These mods can't be balanced, blizzard should acknowledge it and use it to their advantage.
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Right now there are some major problems with tournament viewability. The major two being there are no 'home-town' heros to root for and the open feel of every tournament both of which could be fixed quite easily with a region lock. If Blizzard forced players to play and do well in a local small LANs (like a 16+ man from people in your city) as a requirement to play the online challenger league qualifiers it would solve a lot of problems. These LANs would of course be organized by the community.
First off it would solve the region lock issue at the same time as making challenger leauge feel more exclusive (that player had to win/do well at a local LAN first). In addition you get a really strong home-town hero effect all the way up through the brackets because if you went out to your local LAN you will probably meet someone who made a decent run into the qualifiers and you would root for them all the way through. It also gives a multiple good reason for communities to organize a LAN and greatly incre(imagine some up and comer having to come out to your LAN so he could play in an online qualifier). This would strengthen the community by a huge margin.
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After seeing dota's 6.79 patch. I'm kinda thinking, maybe this is the way of keeping people interested in game in today's world? Dota 2 is a little bit stale now, and meta is shifting too slowly. This overhaul patch will refresh everything, eventually the game will stagnate again, and they'll do another patch. But people will still be there, hungry for actions and new adventures. Maybe thats what sc2 needs now?
I'll hate myself if patch turns out to be fake.
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On October 18 2013 03:08 saddaromma wrote:
After seeing dota's 6.79 patch. I'm kinda thinking, maybe this is the way of keeping people interested in game in today's world? Dota 2 is a little bit stale now, and meta is shifting too slowly. This overhaul patch will refresh everything, eventually the game will stagnate again, and they'll do another patch. But people will still be there, hungry for actions and new adventures. Maybe thats what sc2 needs now?
I'll hate myself if patch turns out to be fake.
Dota is like mirrormatch every time, so you basically cant break the balance by changing everything. Not possible in SC2.
Ontopic I think the build-in buildorderhelper is a nice idea. You can pick from ~3 BOs per matchup with listed strength and weaknesses and get highlighted in top corner what to build when.
Like:
PvZ:
4 Gate - strong early attack (strong on small maps, strong against fast expansions, weak economics, weak midgame+)
Gate Nexus - active expansion (~)
Forge FE - safe/passive expansion (~)
Then you get on top corner: make pylon at expansion in 15s - countdown
make forge at pylon in 15 - countdown
etc for the first few minutes.
You know what to do and what you are good/weak against instead of having no clue at all. But thats 3 years too late I guess.
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On October 18 2013 03:19 mTwRINE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 03:08 saddaromma wrote:
After seeing dota's 6.79 patch. I'm kinda thinking, maybe this is the way of keeping people interested in game in today's world? Dota 2 is a little bit stale now, and meta is shifting too slowly. This overhaul patch will refresh everything, eventually the game will stagnate again, and they'll do another patch. But people will still be there, hungry for actions and new adventures. Maybe thats what sc2 needs now?
I'll hate myself if patch turns out to be fake. Dota is like mirrormatch every time, so you basically cant break the balance by changing everything. Not possible in SC2.
I don't think so.
If say, sc2 receives such an overhaul patch, its gonna be tested really hard before reslease, then by the time pro's work out optimal builds and timings, the game will be refreshed again. Players won't have time to figure out the best strategy (or OP one). And most likely, game will become unpredictable, but I think in such scenarios smart/creative players will shine the most, its better than watching "robots" doing same strategy over and over again.
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On October 18 2013 17:31 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 03:19 mTwRINE wrote:On October 18 2013 03:08 saddaromma wrote:
After seeing dota's 6.79 patch. I'm kinda thinking, maybe this is the way of keeping people interested in game in today's world? Dota 2 is a little bit stale now, and meta is shifting too slowly. This overhaul patch will refresh everything, eventually the game will stagnate again, and they'll do another patch. But people will still be there, hungry for actions and new adventures. Maybe thats what sc2 needs now?
I'll hate myself if patch turns out to be fake. Dota is like mirrormatch every time, so you basically cant break the balance by changing everything. Not possible in SC2. I don't think so. If say, sc2 receives such an overhaul patch, its gonna be tested really hard before reslease, then by the time pro's work out optimal builds and timings, the game will be refreshed again. Players won't have time to figure out the best strategy (or OP one). And most likely, game will become unpredictable, but I think in such scenarios smart/creative players will shine the most, its better than watching "robots" doing same strategy over and over again.
As mTwRINE pointed out, this isn't DOTA2. In DOTA2 both teams have the same options open to them. If a particular hero is too broken then they can be banned. Or they can first pick it. There's minor differences between Dire vs Radiant and which pick order you get; but they're tiny compared to the differences of playing Zerg, Protoss or Terran where you most definitely don't have the same options. Balancing takes a LOT of time and it can be years before people develop strategies and "figure out" units. If you're throwing the meta about too hard then it doesn't develop.
To put it simply: If a Hero is OP it doesn't matter because both teams have the opportunity to either ban or pick it. Or they can choose to directly counter it. If an SC2 race gets patched to be OP, or even just a specific unit is patched to be OP, then it wins hard and the other players aren't simply able to choose to ban it or pick it themselves.
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Have the community stop bitching and looking for drama at every tiny opportunity they get. What differentiates SC2 from a lot of competitors is our average age and disposable income; this is why SC2 is still attractive to sponsors.
If we try to look as respectful as possible, more brands would want their name connected to SC2, IMO, but instead, bitching reigns surpreme and a vocal minority gives a really negative outlook on SC2s popularity.
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On October 18 2013 21:47 SC2Toastie wrote:
Have the community stop bitching and looking for drama at every tiny opportunity they get. What differentiates SC2 from a lot of competitors is our average age and disposable income; this is why SC2 is still attractive to sponsors.
If we try to look as respectful as possible, more brands would want their name connected to SC2, IMO, but instead, bitching reigns surpreme and a vocal minority gives a really negative outlook on SC2s popularity.
Actually I think its quite the opposite. Age is a factor thats holding us back. Think of LoL and DotA2 viewership, mostly younger demograpic compared to us, video games/esports are just more appealing to that audience. Not to mention their games are F2P which enables easier access for their younger demographic, and easier to play. Whereas SC2 requires a hefty up front free, and has a steep learning curve. I find it quite natural that they have much higher fanbases.
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On October 18 2013 21:27 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 17:31 saddaromma wrote:On October 18 2013 03:19 mTwRINE wrote:On October 18 2013 03:08 saddaromma wrote:
After seeing dota's 6.79 patch. I'm kinda thinking, maybe this is the way of keeping people interested in game in today's world? Dota 2 is a little bit stale now, and meta is shifting too slowly. This overhaul patch will refresh everything, eventually the game will stagnate again, and they'll do another patch. But people will still be there, hungry for actions and new adventures. Maybe thats what sc2 needs now?
I'll hate myself if patch turns out to be fake. Dota is like mirrormatch every time, so you basically cant break the balance by changing everything. Not possible in SC2. I don't think so. If say, sc2 receives such an overhaul patch, its gonna be tested really hard before reslease, then by the time pro's work out optimal builds and timings, the game will be refreshed again. Players won't have time to figure out the best strategy (or OP one). And most likely, game will become unpredictable, but I think in such scenarios smart/creative players will shine the most, its better than watching "robots" doing same strategy over and over again. As mTwRINE pointed out, this isn't DOTA2. In DOTA2 both teams have the same options open to them. If a particular hero is too broken then they can be banned. Or they can first pick it. There's minor differences between Dire vs Radiant and which pick order you get; but they're tiny compared to the differences of playing Zerg, Protoss or Terran where you most definitely don't have the same options. Balancing takes a LOT of time and it can be years before people develop strategies and "figure out" units. If you're throwing the meta about too hard then it doesn't develop. To put it simply: If a Hero is OP it doesn't matter because both teams have the opportunity to either ban or pick it. Or they can choose to directly counter it. If an SC2 race gets patched to be OP, or even just a specific unit is patched to be OP, then it wins hard and the other players aren't simply able to choose to ban it or pick it themselves.
You quite don't get it. Blizzard will never release a patch with something obviously OP. Most of the OP stuff will show up later, when the game will get figured out (3-6 months I guess) and players still need time to learn the mechanics, timings and build orders. By that time Blizzard will release another patch which will reboot everything again. Players start exploring again and surprise us with new strats and all.
And frankly I don't get you people, so much denial and NO's. You're not even expert to know if it works in SC2 or not, you just say NO because its safe to say NO. Because most likely it will never happen. And thats the biggest problem of SC2. People are so afraid to do any ballzy moves because they're scared it will break the game, but who cares the game is already in dire situation. We can try every last ditch effort ffs.
LoL/Dota 2 are doing major changes even if the game is fine, its because they know how stuff works, the game needs to be refreshed. And frankly, their community also would call you IDIOT if you proposed such changes (before the patch realeased), but guess what, ITS POSSIBLE to be done and happens.
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On October 19 2013 00:52 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 21:27 -Celestial- wrote:On October 18 2013 17:31 saddaromma wrote:On October 18 2013 03:19 mTwRINE wrote:On October 18 2013 03:08 saddaromma wrote:
After seeing dota's 6.79 patch. I'm kinda thinking, maybe this is the way of keeping people interested in game in today's world? Dota 2 is a little bit stale now, and meta is shifting too slowly. This overhaul patch will refresh everything, eventually the game will stagnate again, and they'll do another patch. But people will still be there, hungry for actions and new adventures. Maybe thats what sc2 needs now?
I'll hate myself if patch turns out to be fake. Dota is like mirrormatch every time, so you basically cant break the balance by changing everything. Not possible in SC2. I don't think so. If say, sc2 receives such an overhaul patch, its gonna be tested really hard before reslease, then by the time pro's work out optimal builds and timings, the game will be refreshed again. Players won't have time to figure out the best strategy (or OP one). And most likely, game will become unpredictable, but I think in such scenarios smart/creative players will shine the most, its better than watching "robots" doing same strategy over and over again. As mTwRINE pointed out, this isn't DOTA2. In DOTA2 both teams have the same options open to them. If a particular hero is too broken then they can be banned. Or they can first pick it. There's minor differences between Dire vs Radiant and which pick order you get; but they're tiny compared to the differences of playing Zerg, Protoss or Terran where you most definitely don't have the same options. Balancing takes a LOT of time and it can be years before people develop strategies and "figure out" units. If you're throwing the meta about too hard then it doesn't develop. To put it simply: If a Hero is OP it doesn't matter because both teams have the opportunity to either ban or pick it. Or they can choose to directly counter it. If an SC2 race gets patched to be OP, or even just a specific unit is patched to be OP, then it wins hard and the other players aren't simply able to choose to ban it or pick it themselves. You quite don't get it. Blizzard will never release a patch with something obviously OP. Most of the OP stuff will show up later, when the game will get figured out (3-6 months I guess) and players still need time to learn the mechanics, timings and build orders. By that time Blizzard will release another patch which will reboot everything again. Players start exploring again and surprise us with new strats and all. And frankly I don't get you people, so much denial and NO's. You're not even expert to know if it works in SC2 or not, you just say NO because its safe to say NO. Because most likely it will never happen. And thats the biggest problem of SC2. People are so afraid to do any ballzy moves because they're scared it will break the game, but who cares the game is already in dire situation. We can try every last ditch effort ffs. LoL/Dota 2 are doing major changes even if the game is fine, its because they know how stuff works, the game needs to be refreshed. And frankly, their community also would call you IDIOT if you proposed such changes (before the patch realeased), but guess what, ITS POSSIBLE to be done and happens.
I think you dont get it, he is completely right, in mobas its ok if things are obviously better than other things, cause everybody can play/ban it. Why do you think there are so many champs that are picked/banned in almost 100% of the games? Cause they are better, some would say op. If thats the case in a rts game, you will only see one unit being made (kinda like warhound).
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On October 19 2013 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2013 00:52 saddaromma wrote:On October 18 2013 21:27 -Celestial- wrote:On October 18 2013 17:31 saddaromma wrote:On October 18 2013 03:19 mTwRINE wrote:On October 18 2013 03:08 saddaromma wrote:
After seeing dota's 6.79 patch. I'm kinda thinking, maybe this is the way of keeping people interested in game in today's world? Dota 2 is a little bit stale now, and meta is shifting too slowly. This overhaul patch will refresh everything, eventually the game will stagnate again, and they'll do another patch. But people will still be there, hungry for actions and new adventures. Maybe thats what sc2 needs now?
I'll hate myself if patch turns out to be fake. Dota is like mirrormatch every time, so you basically cant break the balance by changing everything. Not possible in SC2. I don't think so. If say, sc2 receives such an overhaul patch, its gonna be tested really hard before reslease, then by the time pro's work out optimal builds and timings, the game will be refreshed again. Players won't have time to figure out the best strategy (or OP one). And most likely, game will become unpredictable, but I think in such scenarios smart/creative players will shine the most, its better than watching "robots" doing same strategy over and over again. As mTwRINE pointed out, this isn't DOTA2. In DOTA2 both teams have the same options open to them. If a particular hero is too broken then they can be banned. Or they can first pick it. There's minor differences between Dire vs Radiant and which pick order you get; but they're tiny compared to the differences of playing Zerg, Protoss or Terran where you most definitely don't have the same options. Balancing takes a LOT of time and it can be years before people develop strategies and "figure out" units. If you're throwing the meta about too hard then it doesn't develop. To put it simply: If a Hero is OP it doesn't matter because both teams have the opportunity to either ban or pick it. Or they can choose to directly counter it. If an SC2 race gets patched to be OP, or even just a specific unit is patched to be OP, then it wins hard and the other players aren't simply able to choose to ban it or pick it themselves. You quite don't get it. Blizzard will never release a patch with something obviously OP. Most of the OP stuff will show up later, when the game will get figured out (3-6 months I guess) and players still need time to learn the mechanics, timings and build orders. By that time Blizzard will release another patch which will reboot everything again. Players start exploring again and surprise us with new strats and all. And frankly I don't get you people, so much denial and NO's. You're not even expert to know if it works in SC2 or not, you just say NO because its safe to say NO. Because most likely it will never happen. And thats the biggest problem of SC2. People are so afraid to do any ballzy moves because they're scared it will break the game, but who cares the game is already in dire situation. We can try every last ditch effort ffs. LoL/Dota 2 are doing major changes even if the game is fine, its because they know how stuff works, the game needs to be refreshed. And frankly, their community also would call you IDIOT if you proposed such changes (before the patch realeased), but guess what, ITS POSSIBLE to be done and happens. I think you dont get it, he is completely right, in mobas its ok if things are obviously better than other things, cause everybody can play/ban it. Why do you think there are so many champs that are picked/banned in almost 100% of the games? Cause they are better, some would say op. If thats the case in a rts game, you will only see one unit being made (kinda like warhound).
if we make raven's build time 50s down from 60s, will it break the game?
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Even the UI revamp patch got people really excited.
people just want new things that feels refreshing, even if it isn't going to change anything significantly to their gameplay experience
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On October 19 2013 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2013 00:52 saddaromma wrote:On October 18 2013 21:27 -Celestial- wrote:On October 18 2013 17:31 saddaromma wrote:On October 18 2013 03:19 mTwRINE wrote:On October 18 2013 03:08 saddaromma wrote:
After seeing dota's 6.79 patch. I'm kinda thinking, maybe this is the way of keeping people interested in game in today's world? Dota 2 is a little bit stale now, and meta is shifting too slowly. This overhaul patch will refresh everything, eventually the game will stagnate again, and they'll do another patch. But people will still be there, hungry for actions and new adventures. Maybe thats what sc2 needs now?
I'll hate myself if patch turns out to be fake. Dota is like mirrormatch every time, so you basically cant break the balance by changing everything. Not possible in SC2. I don't think so. If say, sc2 receives such an overhaul patch, its gonna be tested really hard before reslease, then by the time pro's work out optimal builds and timings, the game will be refreshed again. Players won't have time to figure out the best strategy (or OP one). And most likely, game will become unpredictable, but I think in such scenarios smart/creative players will shine the most, its better than watching "robots" doing same strategy over and over again. As mTwRINE pointed out, this isn't DOTA2. In DOTA2 both teams have the same options open to them. If a particular hero is too broken then they can be banned. Or they can first pick it. There's minor differences between Dire vs Radiant and which pick order you get; but they're tiny compared to the differences of playing Zerg, Protoss or Terran where you most definitely don't have the same options. Balancing takes a LOT of time and it can be years before people develop strategies and "figure out" units. If you're throwing the meta about too hard then it doesn't develop. To put it simply: If a Hero is OP it doesn't matter because both teams have the opportunity to either ban or pick it. Or they can choose to directly counter it. If an SC2 race gets patched to be OP, or even just a specific unit is patched to be OP, then it wins hard and the other players aren't simply able to choose to ban it or pick it themselves. You quite don't get it. Blizzard will never release a patch with something obviously OP. Most of the OP stuff will show up later, when the game will get figured out (3-6 months I guess) and players still need time to learn the mechanics, timings and build orders. By that time Blizzard will release another patch which will reboot everything again. Players start exploring again and surprise us with new strats and all. And frankly I don't get you people, so much denial and NO's. You're not even expert to know if it works in SC2 or not, you just say NO because its safe to say NO. Because most likely it will never happen. And thats the biggest problem of SC2. People are so afraid to do any ballzy moves because they're scared it will break the game, but who cares the game is already in dire situation. We can try every last ditch effort ffs. LoL/Dota 2 are doing major changes even if the game is fine, its because they know how stuff works, the game needs to be refreshed. And frankly, their community also would call you IDIOT if you proposed such changes (before the patch realeased), but guess what, ITS POSSIBLE to be done and happens. I think you dont get it, he is completely right, in mobas its ok if things are obviously better than other things, cause everybody can play/ban it. Why do you think there are so many champs that are picked/banned in almost 100% of the games? Cause they are better, some would say op. If thats the case in a rts game, you will only see one unit being made (kinda like warhound).
Roaches are obviously better than hydras or stalkers or banelings.
Marines are obviously better than marauders or roaches.
Yes, that does mean we will see more roach or marine play in general, then hydralisk or marauder play. But no, that does not mean we will
only see one unit being made .
Because as much as the roach outshines the hydralisk, as much it simply cannot attack air. And as much roach/hydra is stronger than monoroach. And as much you cannot build only marines without being countered by only banelings.
Fact of the matter is, that some units are just better overall and if you'd have to choose blindly against a random composition, they would perform statistically better. But for as long as every unit has some downsides that you can abuse against them by dynamic play(styles), for that long we won't
only see one unit being made .
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On October 19 2013 00:59 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2013 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 19 2013 00:52 saddaromma wrote:On October 18 2013 21:27 -Celestial- wrote:On October 18 2013 17:31 saddaromma wrote:On October 18 2013 03:19 mTwRINE wrote:On October 18 2013 03:08 saddaromma wrote:
After seeing dota's 6.79 patch. I'm kinda thinking, maybe this is the way of keeping people interested in game in today's world? Dota 2 is a little bit stale now, and meta is shifting too slowly. This overhaul patch will refresh everything, eventually the game will stagnate again, and they'll do another patch. But people will still be there, hungry for actions and new adventures. Maybe thats what sc2 needs now?
I'll hate myself if patch turns out to be fake. Dota is like mirrormatch every time, so you basically cant break the balance by changing everything. Not possible in SC2. I don't think so. If say, sc2 receives such an overhaul patch, its gonna be tested really hard before reslease, then by the time pro's work out optimal builds and timings, the game will be refreshed again. Players won't have time to figure out the best strategy (or OP one). And most likely, game will become unpredictable, but I think in such scenarios smart/creative players will shine the most, its better than watching "robots" doing same strategy over and over again. As mTwRINE pointed out, this isn't DOTA2. In DOTA2 both teams have the same options open to them. If a particular hero is too broken then they can be banned. Or they can first pick it. There's minor differences between Dire vs Radiant and which pick order you get; but they're tiny compared to the differences of playing Zerg, Protoss or Terran where you most definitely don't have the same options. Balancing takes a LOT of time and it can be years before people develop strategies and "figure out" units. If you're throwing the meta about too hard then it doesn't develop. To put it simply: If a Hero is OP it doesn't matter because both teams have the opportunity to either ban or pick it. Or they can choose to directly counter it. If an SC2 race gets patched to be OP, or even just a specific unit is patched to be OP, then it wins hard and the other players aren't simply able to choose to ban it or pick it themselves. You quite don't get it. Blizzard will never release a patch with something obviously OP. Most of the OP stuff will show up later, when the game will get figured out (3-6 months I guess) and players still need time to learn the mechanics, timings and build orders. By that time Blizzard will release another patch which will reboot everything again. Players start exploring again and surprise us with new strats and all. And frankly I don't get you people, so much denial and NO's. You're not even expert to know if it works in SC2 or not, you just say NO because its safe to say NO. Because most likely it will never happen. And thats the biggest problem of SC2. People are so afraid to do any ballzy moves because they're scared it will break the game, but who cares the game is already in dire situation. We can try every last ditch effort ffs. LoL/Dota 2 are doing major changes even if the game is fine, its because they know how stuff works, the game needs to be refreshed. And frankly, their community also would call you IDIOT if you proposed such changes (before the patch realeased), but guess what, ITS POSSIBLE to be done and happens. I think you dont get it, he is completely right, in mobas its ok if things are obviously better than other things, cause everybody can play/ban it. Why do you think there are so many champs that are picked/banned in almost 100% of the games? Cause they are better, some would say op. If thats the case in a rts game, you will only see one unit being made (kinda like warhound). if we make raven's build time 50s down from 60s, will it break the game?
No, it wouldn't break the game. In fact, I would so far as to say it wouldn't change a single thing about the metagame or the attitudes of the people playing/watching it.
Starcraft is not a MOBA, and cannot be changed like a MOBA can. If a gigantic overhaul patch came through and made say Protoss super overpowered, Terran and Zerg players can not simply ban Protoss from being played that game. And neither can they simply play Protoss instead, because a race in Starcraft is infinitely more complex than a League of Legends of Dota hero.
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On October 18 2013 21:47 SC2Toastie wrote:
Have the community stop bitching and looking for drama at every tiny opportunity they get. What differentiates SC2 from a lot of competitors is our average age and disposable income; this is why SC2 is still attractive to sponsors.
If we try to look as respectful as possible, more brands would want their name connected to SC2, IMO, but instead, bitching reigns surpreme and a vocal minority gives a really negative outlook on SC2s popularity.
Good point but hard to judge.
How many casual games did the average SC2 viewer/player purchase recently? How often do you (/need to, referring to last question) upgrade your PC, would you spend money on "pointless" cosmetics in and outside of games?
We are a niche inside a niche, maybe thats a bit too much too be good, but Im not sure about the demographics/consume habits.
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On October 19 2013 01:15 HystericaLaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2013 00:59 saddaromma wrote:On October 19 2013 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 19 2013 00:52 saddaromma wrote:On October 18 2013 21:27 -Celestial- wrote:On October 18 2013 17:31 saddaromma wrote:On October 18 2013 03:19 mTwRINE wrote:On October 18 2013 03:08 saddaromma wrote:
After seeing dota's 6.79 patch. I'm kinda thinking, maybe this is the way of keeping people interested in game in today's world? Dota 2 is a little bit stale now, and meta is shifting too slowly. This overhaul patch will refresh everything, eventually the game will stagnate again, and they'll do another patch. But people will still be there, hungry for actions and new adventures. Maybe thats what sc2 needs now?
I'll hate myself if patch turns out to be fake. Dota is like mirrormatch every time, so you basically cant break the balance by changing everything. Not possible in SC2. I don't think so. If say, sc2 receives such an overhaul patch, its gonna be tested really hard before reslease, then by the time pro's work out optimal builds and timings, the game will be refreshed again. Players won't have time to figure out the best strategy (or OP one). And most likely, game will become unpredictable, but I think in such scenarios smart/creative players will shine the most, its better than watching "robots" doing same strategy over and over again. As mTwRINE pointed out, this isn't DOTA2. In DOTA2 both teams have the same options open to them. If a particular hero is too broken then they can be banned. Or they can first pick it. There's minor differences between Dire vs Radiant and which pick order you get; but they're tiny compared to the differences of playing Zerg, Protoss or Terran where you most definitely don't have the same options. Balancing takes a LOT of time and it can be years before people develop strategies and "figure out" units. If you're throwing the meta about too hard then it doesn't develop. To put it simply: If a Hero is OP it doesn't matter because both teams have the opportunity to either ban or pick it. Or they can choose to directly counter it. If an SC2 race gets patched to be OP, or even just a specific unit is patched to be OP, then it wins hard and the other players aren't simply able to choose to ban it or pick it themselves. You quite don't get it. Blizzard will never release a patch with something obviously OP. Most of the OP stuff will show up later, when the game will get figured out (3-6 months I guess) and players still need time to learn the mechanics, timings and build orders. By that time Blizzard will release another patch which will reboot everything again. Players start exploring again and surprise us with new strats and all. And frankly I don't get you people, so much denial and NO's. You're not even expert to know if it works in SC2 or not, you just say NO because its safe to say NO. Because most likely it will never happen. And thats the biggest problem of SC2. People are so afraid to do any ballzy moves because they're scared it will break the game, but who cares the game is already in dire situation. We can try every last ditch effort ffs. LoL/Dota 2 are doing major changes even if the game is fine, its because they know how stuff works, the game needs to be refreshed. And frankly, their community also would call you IDIOT if you proposed such changes (before the patch realeased), but guess what, ITS POSSIBLE to be done and happens. I think you dont get it, he is completely right, in mobas its ok if things are obviously better than other things, cause everybody can play/ban it. Why do you think there are so many champs that are picked/banned in almost 100% of the games? Cause they are better, some would say op. If thats the case in a rts game, you will only see one unit being made (kinda like warhound). if we make raven's build time 50s down from 60s, will it break the game? No, it wouldn't break the game. In fact, I would so far as to say it wouldn't change a single thing about the metagame or the attitudes of the people playing/watching it. Starcraft is not a MOBA, and cannot be changed like a MOBA can. If a gigantic overhaul patch came through and made say Protoss super overpowered, Terran and Zerg players can not simply ban Protoss from being played that game. And neither can they simply play Protoss instead, because a race in Starcraft is infinitely more complex than a League of Legends of Dota hero.
There are no such patches in Mobas either, so your point is simply not realistic. Of course noone proposes patches that make stalkers free or roaches fly. Starcraft is not as volatile as you put it. MC/Nestea could win GSLs at a time which we consider quite pro-Terran these days.
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A major part of starcraft is how much power your opponent has to prevent you from playing the game you want to play,
from a casual point of view that can make playing stressful and not something you really want to do with your free time.
From a competitive point of view that is a strength and part of the strategy. Although even some pro players have problems with it insulting an opponent who beats them basically because they played against their weaknesses and prevented them from using their strengths.
I think I am right in remembering that at the start of Wol there were practice matches available which were at a slower speed and had destructible rocks blocking ground routes to the starting bases, would making say bronze league play at fast speed instead of faster make it more accessible or is that going to far?
Also some of the arcade maps like monobattles can be more fun, they could be made more of a feature.
Take an idea like fun day monday, create a mode that gives you some random 'dumb' goals to achieve, beyond just trying to win and move up a ladder. Perhaps many people that don't play don't realise how many other games the arcade provides,
that may get more people playing and even if they don't play in the ladder they may take more notice when a tournament is on and be drawn in.
I would guess for most people watching the high level tournaments is always going to be more entertaining than stressing out trying to improve in the 1v1 ladder.
This is just like every other sport, how many watch but don't play, even for those that do how many actually play in a competitive league instead of just for fun with friends?
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Ok, so I was asked to post my ideas in this thread if I wanted to have it in General. Kind of lame, but here it goes.. lol.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cdvQFXi.jpg)
P.S. Haven't posted on B.Net forums yet due to authenticator issues, please feel free to post it there if no one has done so yet.
INTRODUCTION:
I remember how I used to stay up late so I could watch the GSL Open Seasons live, seeing new players come upon the scene seemingly out of nowhere and old heroes from Brood Wars, Boxer and NaDa shining in the new game. I remember how everything in the game held a sense of excitement for me, and how I was excited about Blizzard’s new ladder feature, and used to ask friends “what rank are you?” when I saw them. I remember when there weren’t tons of Starcraft 2 tournaments, but every one of them held meaning and I was excited to watch them all.
Nowadays, I find myself watching only parts of tournaments, and don’t feel that need to stay awake and watch games live. I like to watch really good games, but if not, what keeps me up late at night are the amazing storylines that come from foreigners doing well, or watching powerhouse players blow through their opponents with ease. However, there aren’t many consistantly dominant players on the scene. There aren’t many new players on the scene, and when there are, they don’t have the means to make a name for themselves right away, because tournaments have so many leagues to go through before you reach the top.
And most players play similar styles, unlike in early WoL when people were coming up with amazing new builds. Like when Jinro used mech on MC in TvP for the first time and slaughtered him, leaving him bewildered (I will not really touch on balance in this article). I wish that players could use multiple effective styles to make their name known.
I also find that WCS has stunted the scene by how much time they have taken away from other tournaments to be focused upon and how little they accomplished compared to what the fanbase had hoped for.
I also don’t feel that excited to log in the game because besides I am mostly a watcher of SC2 games, and don’t have that incentive to play the game, having gotten used to all the units and daunted by the task of reaching the highest leagues, with no short-term benefit.
Thus I have written this article, Fix Starcraft 2 for Legend of the Void, to showcase the potential the game could hold if Blizzard decided to push all the right buttons.
First off, a TL;DR:
The best route for Blizzard to take if they want to maximize their game potential by spending minimum money is to increase the amount of people that play the game.
By improving the interface through the use of social features and aspects that make people want to play more, you will keep them invested in a game. More invested people = more people that watch tournaments = more money for tournaments and more awareness for the game. More awareness = more sponsors for Blizzard. And by including features that can make Blizzzard money, more players playing the game = more $$$.
Also, they should make use of the player community to develop things. Therefore they should have the community develop maps, arcade games, tournaments, and most importantly balancing, having interface options that allow for the community to maximize their effect on the game. They should also take note that many of the features on a site like Team Liquid should be incorporated in the game, such as in-game player and tournament observing, practice partners, and many different types of search options.
Finally, they should adapt their game like a sport and have the proper tournament system and player ranking options as well as a Hall of Fame to remember those who inspired us.
A word of caution:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XoAhTCx.jpg)
I want to note beforehand that many of these options will require a substantial investment through Blizzard’s part, and they would of course have to analyze if those features would be making or losing them money. Many suggestions might also generate a negative reaction from some of you. However, I feel obliged to give them the best possible features that I could think of and it is up to them to decide whether they can implement it. This article will be a success if it creates lots of discussion among the SC2 community.
INTERFACE:
The main goal for the interface change will be to facilitate the social aspect of the game. A good example of Brood Wars and WC3 was how a chat box that filled up the majority of the screen as soon as you logged in. I propose the following:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xLnWIfK.jpg)
-You start the game with the standard loading screen, which brings you into a starting screen that gives you two options: Single Player, Multiplayer, Options, Replays etc. If you enter singleplayer, you are left on your own. However, if you enter multiplayer you are automatically placed in the default Blizzard chat channel. You can disable this through in-game options, as well as edit the channel you enter.
-The chat screen should not feel like a small box but a sizable part of the screen. I recommend the complete bottom portion of the screen. As an option I would allow the user to disable the chat box and have a larger screen for whatever else you are looking at, an example being to enlarge a list in a selection screen.
-The center of the screen will showcase different things, depending on the tab you select on a small box that when you click on it gives a large list of options (you can set the default tab in the options section):
-News feed: A small part where all of your friends can post things (like Facebook’s News Feed) and you can see it and comment on it
-In-Game Player Observing
-Different searches: Tournament search, clan search, coaching, practice partners, replay search, player search
-Calendar
-Player profile (that pops up when you select someone’s name in chat channel or friend list, search in chat box)
-Arcade
-Campaign
-Custom Games
-Ladder
-Achievements
-In-game Points and options (UI modifications, unit modifications, sounds, icons, etc)
-Strategy
-Practice Partners
-Hall of Fame
-etc...
By doing this, the chat section will always be available and the interface will feel more social and less complex.
-Featured: A thin corner on the left hand side of the screen that showcases upcoming events, featured arcade games that rotate, featured articles and other featured things that the creators pay a premium for and that everyone can see right away
-A small part on the top of the screen where reminders (friend/tournament/other invites, calendar events) pop-up. An example would be if a WCS tournament is starting on twitch, an announcement beforehand would show up in this area and a box would pop-up when the stream starts, and when you click on it would cause the center of the screen to go to the twitch stream.
-A tiny corner on the top left side of the screen with your account name, in-game points, experience, player icon and clan name/icon
-A tiny corner on the top right hand corner of the screen with the time and date, and when you click on it it will open up the calendar
-Any other ideas?
POPULARITY:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0cLdHEN.jpg)
A design to up-vote things that you deem are of superior quality. Will be able to up/downvote many things (maps, arcade games, strategies, players (for in-game observing), clans, coaching, practice partners, replays, etc). Will be part of search options in many areas of the game. Having a certain amount of popularity in each section will unlock the ability to be featured.
IN-GAME LEVELS:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5MVvFYq.jpg)
Continues the function it currently serves in HotS, showing the amount of experience the player has accumulated in the game.
-Only used to show game experience (tournament > ladder > comp games in experience)
-Not used to unlock decals or any other bonuses anymore, but the in-game points gained through playing ladder games can be used towards these bonuses
IN-GAME POINTS:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pidcn4V.jpg)
An alternative to spending money in-game for many of the new game additions, the use of in-game points will reward players who play the game more. This is similar to League of Legend’s Influence Points.
-Gained through laddering (including unranked ladder games), playing in Blizzard tournaments, through more people observing in-game laddering, achievements, and also through purchasing with real money
-Any other ideas?
CASH PURCHASES:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4thFwYg.jpg)
-This feature would apply to in-game modifications (icons, UI, etc) as well as real money tournaments, and other features discussed in this document
-Got any other good ideas where people could spend real money? Give your ideas! I am especially looking forward to feedback of what options people think should be used for real money versus in-game points, as I had trouble thinking of how to keep as many benefits accessible to the masses without giving Blizzard the option to make more money and hence put more effort into the success of the game in the future.
OTHER BENEFITS OF IN-GAME POINTS AND REAL CASH
-Transferability: being able to transfer the points you made in SC2 into any other Blizzard game (make those use point system too) so that people play the game just to build up points for other games too. Points are also server-wide, so points accumulated in one server will show up in the other.
-Featuring: being able to feature tournament/clan/strategy/arcade or custom game/etc on main SC2 page (these rotate often, every X seconds per day). However, to not be able to abuse this privilege, this option can only be done every X days, and the thing you are featuring must have a certain amount of popularity first
-Donations: The ability to donate money towards your favorite players in an easy to find location for any player. This could work through Paypal, with Blizzard obtaining a percentage of the money donated. A benefit towards donating in this way would be that the money you spend here would be counted towards the yearly total money invested in the game which would give you a chance at winning the prizes associated with that (trip to Blizzcon, other gifts)
-Any other ideas?
ACHIEVEMENTS:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1523119.jpg)
These provide in-game points (on a scale of easy, medium, hard, rare), with an experience bar showing how many achievements you have completed and how many remain:
-making it into a new league
-joining your first clan
-creating your first strategy guide
-trying out your first coaching session
-creating your first tournament/playing in your first tournament
-winning X amount of ladder games
-winning X amount of tournament games
-playing your first 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, FFA game etc
-using voice/video chat for the first time
-using in-game points for the first time
-using real cash for the first time
-using X amount of cash
-accumulating a total of X in-game points lifetime
-winning X ladder games in one day
-winning a game in under five minutes
-playing a ladder game that is over X minutes
-playing a ladder game for X consecutive days
etc…
-Any other ideas?
Note that for each achievement with X would scale up depending on the difficulty as a separate achievement
TOURNAMENTS:
Before you read this section, I would just like to remind you of the online gambling laws in places such as the USA. Nevertheless, I still included cash tournaments because of the potential they offer, should it be feasible.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ovVZYzt.jpg)
I propose the following changes to revitalize the competitive scene of the game:
-Weekly in-game Blizzard-run tournaments. Consists of 1v1, 2v2, Clan War (Proleague All-Kill/Regular format each week, with the date determined by the clan), and FFA. WCS points are gained for these Blizzard-run tournaments except for FFA (this provides an outlet for good players to gain that extra edge in WCS points through the weekly tournaments)
-Like the WC3 tournament system, has its own in-game ladder ranking, and you can get special icons and decals, etc through tournament achievements that cannot be purchased through in-game points)
-Player-driven tournaments: You create your own tournaments by paying a entry fee with the winner receiving most of the money, and Blizzard getting a percentage of the pool. The money is only taken if the tournament format you choose becomes full.Any format allowed (XvX, FFA, Clan Wars [Both Standard and All-Kill])
-Hosted tournaments: Hosts like MLG and other smaller venues or even individuals can create their own tournaments through Blizzard’s in-game interface by putting in their own prize pool, with the money going to the winners and Blizzard getting a percentage of the pool. By hosting a tournament Blizzard gives you a page where you can put your own tournament banner and other information about the tournament, as well as giving the ability to send invites through the game to players to enter the tournament through either friends list or player search, and the option to allow players in-game to observe (obviously through a delay), or allow viewing of twitch/other video streams on this page. Any format allowed (XvX, FFA, Clan Wars [Both Standard and All-Kill])
-All tournaments are done through the In-Game Blizzard Interface, even for open tournaments like WCS Qualifiers. This makes it a lot more accessible to enter the tournaments and the brackets can be automatically adjusted for the amount of people that join (no limit). This tournament requires in-game points to enter, so either you have to pay a small fee or use your WCS points.
NEW WCS FORMAT:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XtJWlFt.jpg)
A new WCS system is needed to revitalize the competitive scene. Someone once mentioned comparing competitive Starcraft to tennis in terms of rankings and seeding, and I tend to agree. I propose the following:
Elimination of WCS Challenger & Premier Leagues and the institution of seasonal WCS tournaments, similar to the GSL Open Seasons, starting with an unlimited bracket and leading to a grand champion. Use of seeding in all tournaments that give WCS points, like in tennis, will ensure that a lot of your favorite players will still make it far in the tournament.
-WCS points are now enabled for 2v2 and Clan Wars
-Every individual tournaments will give WCS points, scaled in amount depending on the size of the prize pool.
-The WCS points, effectively generating a World Ranking system, are used towards seeding in all tournaments.
-WCS points are now enabled for 2v2. Team games are a less stressful way of playing the game and would appeal to the casual gamer. Currently the tournaments supported would be the weekly in-game tournaments by Blizzard, as well as the WCS Seasonal tournaments. If other tournaments adopt this format then WCS points will be attributed to those as well.
-WCS Seasonal tournaments: Will last only one week as opposed to the current WCS system, which goes on for far too long and hurts the ability for other tournaments to exist.
The following players will get an invite to the offline Seasonal WCS tournaments:
-The top 16 1v1 players in WCS points
The following players will get an invite to the online Seasonal WCS tournaments:
-The top 8 2v2 teams in WCS points
-The top 4 clans in WCS points
-The top 32 1v1 players in WCS points
The following players will get an invite to the offline Blizzcon WCS tournament:
-The top 4 2v2 teams in WCS points
-The top 2 clans in WCS points
-The top 16 1v1 players in WCS points
-Any clan is allowed to participate in Clan Wars so that means the best clans will probably participate
-Regions will be locked in the interest of giving an even battle ground for every player in their own region and for rejuvenating the foreign scenes (like it or not, foreigners want to believe they have a chance providing they put in the hard work)
-A good thing about being able to make in-game purchases as well as advertisement in the Starter Edition could give Blizzard money that they could potentially reinvest in increasing the WCS prize pool.
IN-GAME OBSERVING:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KsPa8Cu.jpg)
LotV should herald a new era of accessibility for watching Starcraft. I propose the following:
-The In-Game Observing feature: Similar to LoL and Dota, this gives the player the ability to watch in-game any player or tournament (Blizzard, Hosted, or Player-Driven) through a selection screen that allows the user to narrow their search.
-This feature lags the game by a few minutes to avoid cheating, and can be disabled by Tournaments and players, respectively (players have no control over the tournament settings). I would assume that large tournaments such as Dreamhack, IEM, GSL etc would disable this option and have all viewers watch through a streaming program like Twitch. This leads me to my next feature:
-The Out-of-Game Observing feature: An announcement for every large tournament leading up to the starting date would show up in a rectangular portion on the top of the main interface screen. This announcement would be replaced by a button when the stream starts, and when you click on it the center of the screen to go to the twitch stream.
-Users can access the In-Game Observing feature by paying or using in-game points.
-Players can obviously still stream on twitch if they want to, but this gives a higher quality viewpoint from the observer’s perspective, without the lag and data usage of viewing streams.
-Players gain in-game points relative to the amount of viewers that are watching them and a portion of any payments made to watch them (provided they enter their credit card information)
-The money garnered through in-game observing through hosted tournaments goes partly to Blizzard, and partly to the creator of the tournament, while the money hosted by player-driven tournaments goes partly to Blizzard, and partly to the tournament prize pool
-Provide the ability to sort through player streams through an interface by-WCS points, ladder ranking, player level, viewers, etc
BETTER OBSERVING INTERFACE:
Having the ability for game analysts to use drawing tools to further their explanations such as the ones available in GameHeart Classic (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=400600) would be beneficial to the scene
GAME MODIFICATIONS:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oxJaBFr.jpg)
Customizability is an important part of the uniqueness of a user’s experience. I am hoping that Blizzard offers us more than just better features for observing and mapmaking. I propose the following additions:
Icons:
-Special icons for achievements: being in WCS, having been to Blizzcon, having been to other big tournaments (Dreamhack, IEM etc), icons for WCS world ranking, number of ladder wins as examples
-Free icons: Player country, player clan logo as examples
-Frame for player in chat designed based on ladder league (grandmaster = gold, diamond = blue, etc)
-Icons achievable by using in-game points or paying cash
Modifiable in-game UI:
-Selection of UI that can be purchased using in-game points or money
-The ability to move around different elements of the UI and place them where you want (akin to action bars in WoW and other MMOs)
-The ability to create your own in-game UI and put them up for sale for in-game points or cash, with Blizzard getting part of every purchase
-Includes the ability to customize hotkeys (so people can implement hotkeys like TheCore http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341878)
Other:
-Moddable skins (or can use in-game points): parts of each of the units (e.g. marines helmets, shoulderpads, weapons, mutaling wings, etc), pay to have team logo, home screen picture
other payable things:
-The ability to always see someone’s statistics before the game starts
-The ability to change your name (exists now, but will require cash)
-The ability to have different unit sounds & different race gameplay music (including original BW music)
-Any other ideas?
COACHING:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GsSf83G.jpg)
By making coaching accessible to the masses, the level of the players will increase as a whole
-Coaching done through a selection screen, Blizzard makes a small fee for placement and a portion of the price charged. Can search coaches based on WCS rank, ladder rank, race, popularity, moniker, price charged (can also select free coaching). Each coach has their own profile page where they write information about their coaching.
-Looking for a coach: Players can also post their requirements and a coach can see it in the looking for coach section and message them.
STRATEGY:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iP1r2a5.jpg)
Looking for that next strategy to up your game, or think you’ve come up with one but wondering where people can find it?
-Will consist of player-generated strategies that players can search through in an interface by player rank, race, popularity, type of play, type of unit used, etc.
CLANS:
Looking for people to train with? Or just a group of friends you can hang out with while you’re on the game?
-Include a clan interface where the user can search all of the different clans based on selectable criteria (league, type of things the clan does, amount of time required to play, etc), there is a clan search on Teamliquid.net now but it would be much more usable if there was something like this in the interface (Blizzard auction house-like selection screen). In addition, each clan will have their own profile page with their logo, roster and information about the team, clan rankings
-Players can also post their own clan requirements for clans to invite (I call it free agency)
-The ability to create a clan icon and use that as an icon for your moniker
-Clan channel with moderator privileges
PRACTICE PARTNERS:
For people who don’t want to be in a clan, or just looking for specific training partners, Blizzard should implement the following:
-An interface where users can enter themselves as practice partners and enter in description what they are looking for in a selection box, so people can narrow by search options for suitable practice partners. Also an additional field to enter further useful information.
CALENDAR:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vpHYaJ4.jpg)
To organize all information, I propose that Blizzard adds a calendar unique to every player
-Includes all clan-related information
-Includes all events (Blizzard tournaments, other WCS point tournaments, bonus in-game point days)
-Includes the ability to add events to the calendar
PLAYER PROFILE:
An important part of preserving the uniqueness of every player, I propose that Blizzard design player profiles with a complexity that harkens to Facebook
-Every player is unique: You can post information about yourself here, including your background, strengths and weaknesses, age, location (including country flag), and even include your own picture or any picture that you deem represents yourself
-Will include generated information like league, race, clan, achievements, wcs points and ranking (1v1, 2v2, clan, FFA), level in an easy-to-read graphical format.
-This information becomes all part of a database where people can search other similar people in a database and clans can find potential members (once again part of Blizzard auction house type selection screen). Also this is really cool since you can look up the player you beat afterwards and gain a more intimate knowledge of the kind of players they are, connecting players together. can even have pictures of the players if the person wants to put it there.
-A generated timeline that shows when the player started playing the game, and how their ladder rank has changed since then.
-For every WCS ranked player Blizzard should create GSL-like player stats (offence, defence, macro, micro, strategy, cheese, popularity). See http://terrancraft.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/wcs-korea-player-stats.jpg
-The ability to link twitter account/other social media (either as a link or with the ability to see the twitter chat on the bottom of the profile)
-On the bottom of every chat will be a section where people can write things and that player can see it forever. Think, a person’s Facebook Wall. The player can delete whatever is written if he wants, have only friends write here, have only friends read it, or disable this feature.
-Any other ideas?
FRIENDS LIST:
-Add a people-you-may-know section: Like Facebook, this suggests a list of people who are friends with many of your current friends. This leads me to my next feature.
PLAYER SEARCH:
Ability to search for players based on location, age, etc for people to find others with similarities, or to invite to games, tournaments, or just to a message.
IN-GAME NEWS:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/N2rlDnU.jpg)
An essential way for users to keep up-to-date with the goings-on in SC2
-An in-game newspaper like interface talking all about sc2 esports (tournaments, players, strategies etc) somewhere on the screen that you can click and will open up in-game and not in a browser (maybe hire TL to do stuff like this through Blizzard). If Blizzard does not want to do this I suggest another option:
-Using the user base to create a news section similar to Digg. Users can post a link from an internet site and the community can upvote or downvote it, with the highest voted links on the top of the list. Users can also flag inappropriate links and they will be looked at by one of Blizzard staff and removed if necessary. This option would save Blizzard money and ensure that all of the available news is being put in this section.
-Another useful feature could be a twitter feed that shows up in game, whenever a player tweets something with #starcraft it shows up in a box in-game.
-A Liquipedia-esque section in-game.
REPLAYS:
SC2 needs a centralized database for replays. I suggest Blizzard facilitate that in-game.
-The ability to view replays through a replay watching site interface, where you can search by player name, game length, races, map, votes, etc (and there is always a replay of the week) through a auction house type selection screen.
VOICE & VIDEO INTERACTION:
A good voice and video interaction system is the next step in player immersion and the social aspect.
-A good in-game voice & video system is needed for people playing in tournaments, when observing, or even just in chat (make a deal with skype, teamspeak or ventrilo for this)
-The ability for the host to disable/enable voice/video interaction in custom/tournament games(for example, disabling for observers and enabling for caster for in-game tournaments. note that the caster would be commentating on the delayed feed in this case)
SPECIAL EVENTS:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MOhjuEL.jpg)
Nothing spells excitement like a surprise. I propose Blizzard keeps the player base eager to log on through the following:
-Tournaments (as previously mentioned)
-Extra points days: making a kind of Day9 Daily thing where every day you get more in-game points for winning a game with one type of unit that Blizzard selects, and Blizzard can select units that aren’t being used as much, which would shed more light on new strategies or showcase possible units in need of being nerfed or buffed
-Balance testing: testing balance maps and units and giving feedback (voting included, potentially on balance & fun options separately) gives a good amount of in-game points and allows for the community to voice their opinion. the good thing about doing this in-game is that Blizzard can easily sort out opinions by league & race. This could especially be useful during beta testing for LotV in looking at what units people like and what they find in terms of balance.
-Mapmaking & Arcade-Game making contests
-VIP rewards: Inviting the person who spends the most money in-game every year to Blizzcon (assuming they make money by implementing this) and offering other prizes to the second place onwards.
-The Starcraft 2 home screen changing depending on special events (for example, large tournaments, Hall of Fame inductions)
-Reductions in in-game points or real cash requirements for purchases on select days
-Any other ideas?
HALL OF FAME:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hAX58vu.jpg)
Like in any professional sport, this section designates the most accomplished players to ever play the game.
Every year, five players are added to the Starcraft Hall of Fame, each of them having their own special Hall of Fame profile with a lengthy player biography, defining replays of that player. To build up the suspense before the announcement, every week during the month of the announcement, a new temporary SC2 home screen lasting X days is made with that player, ending at the end of the month with the final player and the announcement.
In addition, these home screens will be purchasable using in-game points or real cash after the announcement.
METHODS TO GET NEW PLAYERS IN THE GAME:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/b3WB44l.jpg)
This is one area where the in-game points system will help. Currently there is the SC2 starter edition which is free.
I would like the following things to be added to the SC2 starter edition:
-Levels
-All races unlocked
-Clans
-Custom Games (can only play featured arcade games which rotate)
-Voice chat
-Chat channels
-Unranked ladder (gives in-game points)
-All news-related information (strategies, tournaments, headlines etc)
Advertisements for Starter Edition:
Blizzard can make additional cash by accepting advertisements from different companies and rotating them in a rectangular area throughout the top portion of the screen.
Other potential areas for advertisement:
-Loading screen for games
-In the actual game itself
(Note that advertisements would only be enabled in the Starter Edition and by purchasing the game would be removable)
I propose to allow the following to be enabled by using in-game points:
-Ranked ladder (enabled for X games)
-Coaching (enabled for X hours)
-In-game observing (one use)
-Items (permanent)
-Moddable skins (permanent)
While keeping certain things like tournaments off limit to these players. This would give them the social features of the game and the ability to work their way to getting part of the full game temporarily. What I hope this would do is give them enough information to truly decide if they would like to purchase the game or not.
COMMERCIALS/ONLINE ADVERTISEMENTS:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cybOjyK.jpg)
-This isn’t exactly related to the game but I thought I would post my thoughts on a potential advertisement that would showcase what Starcraft has to offer. I remember reading a post of LiquidRet’s on how he is still awed by how multitasking and micro can produce spectacular effects in a game. The following idea is inspired by that example:
The cutscene starts with two young kids playing chess, which turns into two older players playing chess, and then two grandmasters playing chess. Then the chess pieces turn into Starcraft units and then the whole board changes into the Starcraft game and you get examples of the truly amazing things skilled players can do (marine splitting, storm dodging, muta control), as well as amazingly huge battles. A voice says “Test your mettle in the world’s most challenging video game”. Starcraft 2 LotV logo follows.
THE END:
Finally, I would like to thank everyone for reading this, even those who skimmed through it really fast
I can only hope this stimulates meaningful discussions related to the steps Blizzard can take to “fix” the game, and encourage you to spread the word if you care about the game as much as I do!
Who knows? Maybe Blizzard is listening.
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Replace Blizz management and decision makers?
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On October 20 2013 13:04 Aristotle7 wrote:
Replace Blizz management and decision makers?
These kind of comments are not only absurd but give this thread an unnecessary negative feel. Please stop.
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I think a 4v4 f2p will be a huge boost to starcraft
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I don't believe most of my ideas are considered original, but I'll try to add my thoughts about some of the ideas.
Surprisingly, I don't necessarily think the community itself will be the sole solution of helping starcraft 2 to grow. I think there needs to be a large amount of responsibility that Blizzard itself needs to take in order for SC2 to actually grow.... and I believe they should take a large amount of the responsibility.
Here is an exert of a post that somebody and I had a brief discussion on on some other TL post regarding the business practices of Blizzard:
On October 20 2013 11:00 Iblis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2013 10:18 unifo wrote:On October 20 2013 09:59 Iblis wrote:I sadly agree with you all that Blizzard has just decided to treat Starcraft as a money maker asset and do the bare minimum to assure the game is not considered a scam but not invest so much money into it that would make it a risky investment. We have seen multiple Esport game company throwing millions to players of their games even in beta stages to try and promote their game and give incentive to players to want to invest time on it and be the best. Blizzard likes its money and doesn't seem to like to give it to players in any form. Before WCS and that seemingly income that player could get from blizzard I would always be disgusted seeing Dustin Broder in the audience of GSL to make some Public appearance in the Esport scene to make it seems like they care... They could have just thrown some money around to make this game into a revolution: -Sponsor big tournament with big money, stimulate the community -Develop features around the fucking game: * Daily/Weekly for the fun tournament ingame like in Warcraft 3, 1v1, 2v2, different format, map pool *Clan support *Solid chat system *A custom map system more friendly and rewarding toward newly created with high potential *Strengthen their hardware infrastructure so the strong player base can actually play without hindrance + Show Spoiler +I'm still waiting for a popular game to not have issues keeping the service up without hindrance before the bulk of the community gets tired of this shit and just quit relieving the servers load.It's been the same movie every time for years now, the infrastructure is nowhere near sufficient, the company makes a big announcement "WE ARE ADDING X SERVERS DON'T WORRY". And nothing changes until most people give up trying to play and the more patient at long last can try it. As an European player with LoL, Diablo 3, Hearthstone not playable 80% of the time I have free time for it this is one of the worst feeling. *Have their own fully featured replay manager I was really enthusiastic before SC2 beta and thought it was going to be the next gen game everyone was waiting for, you could watch any competition happening in the world for a fee, you could have access to other games into the games through the custom map because map creator will be able to have a donate/price for a map so they can make great ones and maintains them. And most of all I really thought Blizzard would have some kind of money commitment in form of salary to some of the best SC2 players making it into a viable job for the gifted and dedicated. I'm still shocked about how wrong I was and how much faith I put into Blizzard. They could do so much and it would just make the game so much more wanted by tons of more people but they seem to have decided to just exploit the licence to squeeze out money out of people by dedicating just one of their development team and don't put that much features in so the Battlenet cheap infrastructure they made wouldn't blow up and force them to invest in it. TL DR: SC2 is now just maintained to stay the RTS leader of the market, they have no interest in investing more money in it because their goal is just to make profit so strategically no need to make a revolution when you are already the leader with your basic product. If the players and community want to make it into something more, they'll do it at their cost. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Interesting post. To expand on some of the ideas, I'm wondering why Blizzard hasn't actually implemented some of the ideas that the community has brought up especially some of the ideas that has a return in investments (eg. name tag change, maybe battle.net plus... etc...). Also Blizzard appears to be extremely late to the party in terms of investment, and even now, their input into e-sports is extremely minimal compared to other companies (Valve with Dota2, Riot and LoL). It might be to suggest that Blizzard doesn't actually understand the current market on managing online game and that they are running all their games on an outdated business models. I mean if one takes a look at League of Legends and various other online games, there are micro-transactions that are non-game breaking, yet these companies rack up lots of cash though these transaction. Also a lot of these games are free to play, hence players have full access to the game. Starcraft 2 on the other hand, is a simple pay XX bucks to access the game (though it has a demo), no microtransaction, and limited support to the community. I simply don't understand how the game is actually staying afloat especially with server maintenance cost which is monthly, and Starcraft 2 having no income generated beyond the initial pay in. A related article about Activision Blizzard strategy handling line: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-09-26-activision-were-taking-some-of-the-biggest-risks (you can google "Activision blizzard takes risks" if you want other sources) It looks like they are trying to make everyone forget that they are behind Call of Duty IP that have yearly release but no definitive changes between a release and its next. WoW is probably the Blizzard title with the best "metagame" evolution, the addon system allowed user to complete the game and make it great where it lack some user friendly features. You can say that WoW is what it is now because it reflect needs that were seen by users and then the game interface would evolve and take this in. And in recent Blizzard title they just don't take feedback from user at all for a basic product and then react more or less in the forms of paid expansion. Diablo 3, Starcraft 2 and Battlenet2.0 v1.0 were them taking exactly 0 risks and even then the Battlenet structure never did satisfy client expectation when released. TL DR: They just just do what they do best, copy features from other games and just offer them polished like they do with addons in wow and in other games in the past, just copy every feature from Dota 2 for starter.
Basically the brief summary: Blizzard's business model + philosophy of developing games is really negatively impacting the growth of SC2.
My take on F2P
If Blizzard was to change the business model of how Starcraft 2 works, then a huge analysis would be necessary. A lot of people is suggesting that SC2 should use the F2P model and it would work miracles to save it. Although that would be the "best" solution, there are always cons in switching the current model to a F2P model. Here are some advantages/disadvantages:
Advantages of F2P:
- Lots and lots and lots of people having access to SC2, and hopefully expected result is that there is a heck load of players playing the game
- More people playing game result in a positive growth cycle of SC2 (which may or may not be likely)
Disadvantages of F2P:
- Blizzard will have to spend lots of money to practically change some of its internal system so they can get cash... ie.. possibly a buy to get features (note: depending on certain features that it will be charging, it could end up destroying the game)
- Likely we will see a heck load of ADs in b.net 2.0 to justify F2P
- Current server loads may not be sufficient, hence Blizzard will need to spend more on upgrading/maintaining servers
(Feel free to msg me to add to this list, as this is definitely not comprehensive just yet)
Bottom line: Basically the way F2P changes how money is coming into blizzard is something Blizzard currently have no plans for, nor I don't think they truly understand that particular model, since they have never used it. However, the current model of buying to play the game is a huge hindrance of player growth in SC2, and that should be changed. However, that is outside of our control.
My Take on Community Building
Blizzard has certainly doesn't have a freaking clue on how to properly build a community, nor is providing adequate tools within SC2 to do so (either within the client of Sc2 such as expanded chat boxes, advance clan options, or outside of client, such as funding external tournaments). Other games have certainly done a much better job of building it, most notably Dota 2 and LoL, especially on the large amounts of money they are pumping into the scene.
When talking about in client community building, I don't think Blizzard has a good track record for that. Just SC2, when it was launched, there were no clans, no chat channels, and completely impossible to really reach new people. Yes they did "integrate Facebook", but that proves to be a complete failure. Only later, they added these features.... in which these same features were part of the previous games they had made before. Also, anybody tried Diablo 3? Man I swear it was a single player game, with multiplayer elements such as a chat box in the bottom right that was so tiny that I didn't care about it. Diablo 3 should be a multiplayer experience with single player elements, not the other way around.
Outside of the client, and tournament support, they are definitely not doing the best job to support the community. Besides the WCS, they practically do nothing to support grass-root organizations to build SC2. Basically, to run tournament in SC2, you basically have to ask them for permission to use the game for tournament, and they take a whole bunch of money from tourney organizers just for them to run the game (not certain that this is fully correct, feel free to correct this point) On top of that, the WCS pretty much occupies all the premier time slots, hence no opportunity for any small tourneys to really get good screen time, hence crushing any hopes for any smaller tourneys for exposure. Sure they are attempting to copy the LCS in LoL, but this is just not working well for growth.
This relates heavily on Blizzard's philosophy of Sc2 on how they run it and how they develop the game further. If they were serious about growing SC2, then they need to really take risks with their money and pump a lot into the community and develop tools within the client that facilitates social aspect (unlike now), and money into the e-sports scene, and have many many tournaments (man miss the 2011 days where there was like 8 MLGs)
(Blizzard, you really need to think about having imbalances among the 3 races rather sticking to the 50% win rate in all matchups, and that is a risk I think should be taken. I mean SC:BW was really "imbalanced" at times, and somehow it worked out)
What can we do as a community to grow SC2
As much as Blizzard makes the game, it is us the players, who plays the game, that is also responsible for the growth of SC2. The more "we" as the general community gets involved with SC2, the more likely it will grow.
I hear all this "Starcraft 2 is dead" nonsense, or that the "metagame is garbage" message. However, this is just creating negative energy around Sc2, and less people will join.
As a SC2 community member, what we really should do is to PROMOTE how good SC2 really is, rather than just looking at viewer numbers at Twitch.tv. Create a positive energy about SC2 and how good it really is. Creating great vibes about the game will certainly help the growth of SC2.
Finally, get more involved (if you have the time) and support Starcaft 2 events, sponsers of events, and even blizzard itself, either by spending time or money to support them.
Conclusion
These are my ideas on aspects of growth. I do hope blizzard is listening (though I highly doubt that will happen), and thanks for reading this wall of text.
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I don´t think the community can do much about the growth of this game. It is Blizzard alone who needs to change a lot. If its the interface, balance or other stuff which needs to be changed. Would love to see Dustin "terribleDAMAGE" Browder retire and get back to F2P comand and conquer or something. I think about D3 and how much it helped that Jay "fuckyoucommunity" Wilson retired...
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On October 21 2013 00:54 Suikakuju wrote:
I don´t think the community can do much about the growth of this game. It is Blizzard alone who needs to change a lot. If its the interface, balance or other stuff which needs to be changed. Would love to see Dustin "terribleDAMAGE" Browder retire and get back to F2P comand and conquer or something. I think about D3 and how much it helped that Jay "fuckyoucommunity" Wilson retired...
lol that was such a funny piece of drama XD. Dustin Browder did a reasonable job though, I think he can be satisfied that he made a fun game. If Blizzard really want to get the magic back, I think they'll have to rehire the talent that was behind the original Starcraft. At this point I don't think that's very likely, so it will probably stagnate and fade into obscurity
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On October 21 2013 01:11 radscorpion9 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2013 00:54 Suikakuju wrote:
I don´t think the community can do much about the growth of this game. It is Blizzard alone who needs to change a lot. If its the interface, balance or other stuff which needs to be changed. Would love to see Dustin "terribleDAMAGE" Browder retire and get back to F2P comand and conquer or something. I think about D3 and how much it helped that Jay "fuckyoucommunity" Wilson retired... lol that was such a funny piece of drama XD. Dustin Browder did a reasonable job though, I think he can be satisfied that he made a fun game. If Blizzard really want to get the magic back, I think they'll have to rehire the talent that was behind the original Starcraft. At this point I don't think that's very likely, so it will probably stagnate and fade into obscurity
At least I can dream.... And yes I want Bill Roper back ! xD
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Canada11298 Posts
-You start the game in the default Blizzard chat channel. You can disable this through in-game options, as well as edit the channel you enter
I like the idea in principle, but not exactly how it is worded. The user needs an option on whether they want to play singleplayer (campaign) or multiplayer. BEFORE chat screens start popping up. If all you want to do is play the campaign that day, it would be irritating to be forced into a chat channel.
However if there was a giant button that said Multiplayer (and maybe a some helpful descriptions underneath that this is not only ladder, but UMS, etc, then when you click on that you get chat channels and the interface you are showing. Right now you can bypass the entire social aspect while playing with other people simply because 'Play" aka ladder is entirely separated from the social aspect. In fact chat is a tiny button that you must press and is entirely periphery. I like the idea of chat channels being the portal to get to any game, but only for multiplayer. Singleplayer can play their game in silence.
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Canada13379 Posts
Why can't we just make the arcade F2P? Its where most people will spend their super casual time anyway and allow a single player or multiplayer or combo tier to upgrade the game up from starter
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Its great that many people in this thread have wonderful dreams and hopes about what Starcraft2 could become....
but, lets get back to the reality of the entertainment software marketplace:
basebuilding/resource gathering RTS games are a narrow niche market due to their complexity and PC-centric nature.
With WC3 and SC2 Blizzard got maximum possible sale totals from this narrow niche genre.
Blizzard attained maximum possible long term popularity from these games as well.
No other RTS since 2001 has come close to doing anything near waht WC3 and SC2 did. As franchises, C&C and CoH are in big trouble. Gearbox just brought some amount of life to the Homeworld sequel which was on the verge of being a still-born baby.
Without Blizzard the entire RTS genre is basically on life-support as of 2013.
Take a critical look at CoH2, Rome2, the new F2P C&C... its ugly out there folks.
Blizzard has done as good a job as can be expected with SC2... Dustin Browder, David Kim, Mike Morhaime... take a bow gentlemen because you've done yoeman's service to the genre and every RTS fan should be thankful you guys are around to put out the only real solid RTS title in the past 5+ years.
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Why can't we just make the arcade F2P? Its where most people will spend their super casual time anyway and allow a single player or multiplayer or combo tier to upgrade the game up from starter
This might actually be good...
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On October 20 2013 13:00 dgwow wrote:
Ok, so I was asked to post my ideas in this thread if I wanted to have it in General. Kind of lame, but here it goes.. lol.
Attach this to your resume and get a job at Blizzard already =P
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The problem is the game itself, not cute little gimmick functions. I would be more concerned with keeping fans than trying to pick up fans from outside the world of video games or from other games. The problem is the game is set up so that you want to have 3 bases worth of mining, and every balance change has been made so that race X has an easier/harder time to get to 3 bases worth of mining.. and guess what? It is really boring to watch a game where both players understand they can get 3 base economy safely, greedily, and then max out. There is not enough variance in games anymore and the best players are the ones that are the safest and the greediest. That's where the game has been headed, and I believe we have been here for the last few months (if not a year+). The game was beautiful when it was hard to play greedy, but now it's very easy to predict what is going to happen and it is only entertaining to watch games where players try to fight this trend.
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Just a couple of theories and ideas:
Bring back positional play and make siege tanks matter again. In bw, all 3 matchups pretty much revolved around this unit. Then taking the center of the map would actually mean something (map control of expansions and attack paths, or forcing army confrontations). Means no ground hard counters to tanks, but doesn't mean one can't do anything about it. bw terran was like a slowly crawling snake eating up prime estate that were valuable to hold (towards the opponent's base). When armies clashed, both sides lose a lot of stuff in explosions (tanks included) and the battles were grand. In SC2, the land you hold is worthless and can be changed instantly due to mobile deathballs.
Couple positional play with some more ground cloaked units (lurkers, mines, dt's) to build tension and excitement (remember mines/lurkers cutting off retreat pathways? Or a bunch of marines parked on top of a hold lurker?). SC2 had burrowed banes and widow mines, but I think the lack of importance of army positioning and dancing deathballs (estate market is too volatile) destroyed the tension these units could've built.
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On October 21 2013 01:49 lamprey1 wrote:
Its great that many people in this thread have wonderful dreams and hopes about what Starcraft2 could become....
but, lets get back to the reality of the entertainment software marketplace:
basebuilding/resource gathering RTS games are a narrow niche market due to their complexity and PC-centric nature.
With WC3 and SC2 Blizzard got maximum possible sale totals from this narrow niche genre.
Blizzard attained maximum possible long term popularity from these games as well.
No other RTS since 2001 has come close to doing anything near waht WC3 and SC2 did. As franchises, C&C and CoH are in big trouble. Gearbox just brought some amount of life to the Homeworld sequel which was on the verge of being a still-born baby.
Without Blizzard the entire RTS genre is basically on life-support as of 2013.
Take a critical look at CoH2, Rome2, the new F2P C&C... its ugly out there folks.
Blizzard has done as good a job as can be expected with SC2... Dustin Browder, David Kim, Mike Morhaime... take a bow gentlemen because you've done yoeman's service to the genre and every RTS fan should be thankful you guys are around to put out the only real solid RTS title in the past 5+ years.
It has become a niche genre because of the problems with sc2. bw had millions of viewers on korean national television.
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On October 21 2013 03:13 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2013 01:49 lamprey1 wrote:
Its great that many people in this thread have wonderful dreams and hopes about what Starcraft2 could become....
but, lets get back to the reality of the entertainment software marketplace:
basebuilding/resource gathering RTS games are a narrow niche market due to their complexity and PC-centric nature.
With WC3 and SC2 Blizzard got maximum possible sale totals from this narrow niche genre.
Blizzard attained maximum possible long term popularity from these games as well.
No other RTS since 2001 has come close to doing anything near waht WC3 and SC2 did. As franchises, C&C and CoH are in big trouble. Gearbox just brought some amount of life to the Homeworld sequel which was on the verge of being a still-born baby.
Without Blizzard the entire RTS genre is basically on life-support as of 2013.
Take a critical look at CoH2, Rome2, the new F2P C&C... its ugly out there folks.
Blizzard has done as good a job as can be expected with SC2... Dustin Browder, David Kim, Mike Morhaime... take a bow gentlemen because you've done yoeman's service to the genre and every RTS fan should be thankful you guys are around to put out the only real solid RTS title in the past 5+ years. It has become a niche genre because of the problems with sc2. bw had millions of viewers on korean national television.
it was wrapped up in k-pop...
the vast majority of viewers had no clue about build orders. the vast majority of the female audience could care less about the nuances of strategy. and a not much larger minority of the male audience was in the same boat.
if Brood War were not being propped up by a marketing machine it would've had as much mainstream popularity as it had in dozens of other 1st world countries... which is to say ..none at all.
just to finish this off...
if you'd like to just list off the top of your head the plethora of mainsteam RTS titles that'd be great.
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On October 21 2013 01:37 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +
-You start the game in the default Blizzard chat channel. You can disable this through in-game options, as well as edit the channel you enter
I like the idea in principle, but not exactly how it is worded. The user needs an option on whether they want to play singleplayer (campaign) or multiplayer. BEFORE chat screens start popping up. If all you want to do is play the campaign that day, it would be irritating to be forced into a chat channel. However if there was a giant button that said Multiplayer (and maybe a some helpful descriptions underneath that this is not only ladder, but UMS, etc, then when you click on that you get chat channels and the interface you are showing. Right now you can bypass the entire social aspect while playing with other people simply because 'Play" aka ladder is entirely separated from the social aspect. In fact chat is a tiny button that you must press and is entirely periphery. I like the idea of chat channels being the portal to get to any game, but only for multiplayer. Singleplayer can play their game in silence.
Totally agree with this, thanks for mentioning, I will update my post with this.
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At some point blizzard is going to have to do their share, we can't do everything.
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EPT
