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On August 09 2013 07:34 Elroi wrote:
This isnt what we used to call a power rank... This is a ranking by results when it used to be about level of play. I dont think anyone would favor Taeja or Hyun in a box vs flash or jangbi for example.
The power rank is based on both results and level of play. The old power rank was also very centric around results. I don't know why you'd imply it wasn't. Players were often dropped from the historical BW power rank for a lack of results.
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On August 09 2013 06:37 BronzeKnee wrote:
But those are performances from a team league... this is individual rankings. There is a big difference.
And again:
There is an individual league where the best players play, WCS KR. These are the statistics (of games won/lost, not matches won lost) from this month of that league:
Maru: 11-5
Innovation: 7-6
When I used to drag race my car (at the track), there was an old saying, "We don't race dyno sheets, we race cars." You might think the 900 HP Supra is going to beat the 700 HP Viper, but we actually race the cars to figure out who wins.
Now we play the game to find out who is better right, we don't just look at statistics, right?
This was the winner when they went head to head :
Maru 4-0 - Advances to the Final.
Innovation 0-4 - Eliminated.
So who was better?
It's individual results, and that includes the results of an individual in a team league.
Also as far as your Innovation beat Maru, he's better argument: Haypro beat Nestea and barely lost to MVP once at an MLG. According to your formula since we're apparently taking nothing into account other than head to head it goes
1. MVP
2. Haypro
3. Nestea
Would that be what you took away from that MLG?
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On August 09 2013 06:26 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 06:24 Rhaegal wrote:
Do the people arguing for Maru actually believe he is better than Innovation, or are they just arguing for the sake of it?
Maru was 0-2'd by Zest and Losira.... guess that makes them better? And Bomber beat Innovation... the point is, if these rankings don't predict, and they are based on the results from this month, and they are individual and not team rankings, that putting Innovation first is insane. He lost, badly. Maru should be first, he just beat the #1 individually ranked player! And he has the recent results to back it up. I suppose much of this comes down to how far off they weight the rankings from previous months. But to do that, and not predict is foolish, because with a ranking system like this you look in the past to predict the future. Either make the results based on the performance of the month, or go back further and do some predicting. There is a reason the vast majority of rankings, in any sport do the former.
Look in the month of July: http://www.aligulac.com/players/49-Maru/
http://www.aligulac.com/players/48-INnoVation/results/
Basically, you're saying against similar levels of competition, a 29-8 should be weighted less than an 11-8 purely because of one 4-0 that would bring the records to 29-12 vs 15-8? I think many of us disagree with that value judgment. Not much else to say.
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Regarding head to head: Losira beat Maru. So he should be here! What a terrible ranking. Unofficial world champion so much more legit!
But seriously: no way Innovation isn't at the top. Yes Maru swept him, and yes I actually think Maru could do it again. But I still can't see Maru as conclusively better across the board.
The 4-0 means a lot. But it doesn't negate all of innovations other wins as some people seem to think.
Overall: I'm pretty happy with these rankings. Of course it's the power rank though, so fanboys and haters gonna hate it.
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On August 09 2013 07:34 Elroi wrote:
This isnt what we used to call a power rank... This is a ranking by results when it used to be about level of play. I dont think anyone would favor Taeja or Hyun in a box vs flash or jangbi for example.
If people were able to base their predictions on recent results and not on their fanboyism, I'm pretty sure most of TL would favor HyuN or TaeJa in a BoX against Flash or JangBi. And yes, a power rank can only rank level of play on the most recent results because they represent the current skill of the player as of late.
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On August 09 2013 08:05 PhoenixVoid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 07:34 Elroi wrote:
This isnt what we used to call a power rank... This is a ranking by results when it used to be about level of play. I dont think anyone would favor Taeja or Hyun in a box vs flash or jangbi for example. If people were able to base their predictions on recent results and not on their fanboyism, I'm pretty sure most of TL would favor HyuN or TaeJa in a BoX against Flash or JangBi. And yes, a power rank can only rank level of play on the most recent results because they represent the current skill of the player as of late.
Sure, assuming they`re playing in the same tourneys. Flash and jangbi are code S while the other two are farming wins vs foreigners and koreans who ran from the real competition. Hyun loses in AM challenger league and you really think he`d be favoured vs flash/jangbi in a BoX? Taeja at #6 is a joke considering the caliber of opposition.
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Good Power Rank!! Slightly disagree with TaeJa at #6. He is definitely good and has come a long way since his injuries but being that high up when players like sOs, Flash, Life, and JangBi are lower... well, it doesn't make much sense except TL bias!
Edit: Kidding about the last part 
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On August 09 2013 00:40 Sevre wrote:
Pretty good Power Rank, I only disagree with INnoVation being 1st again. Yes he's awesome, but I feel like you give him too much credit for winning Proleague when he hasn't lived up to expectations this month, and in the Bomber piece you concede that he's overrated? Just feels a bit weird. Other than that though spot on.
umm so he loses to maru then he's not livin up to his expectations?
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On August 09 2013 07:54 Qaatar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 06:26 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 09 2013 06:24 Rhaegal wrote:
Do the people arguing for Maru actually believe he is better than Innovation, or are they just arguing for the sake of it?
Maru was 0-2'd by Zest and Losira.... guess that makes them better? And Bomber beat Innovation... the point is, if these rankings don't predict, and they are based on the results from this month, and they are individual and not team rankings, that putting Innovation first is insane. He lost, badly. Maru should be first, he just beat the #1 individually ranked player! And he has the recent results to back it up. I suppose much of this comes down to how far off they weight the rankings from previous months. But to do that, and not predict is foolish, because with a ranking system like this you look in the past to predict the future. Either make the results based on the performance of the month, or go back further and do some predicting. There is a reason the vast majority of rankings, in any sport do the former. Look in the month of July: http://www.aligulac.com/players/49-Maru/http://www.aligulac.com/players/48-INnoVation/results/Basically, you're saying against similar levels of competition, a 29-8 should be weighted less than an 11-8 purely because of one 4-0 that would bring the records to 29-12 vs 15-8? I think many of us disagree with that value judgment. Not much else to say.
Take another look here at the stats: Maru is 6-2 (75%) in matches 15-8 (65%) in games. Innovation is 17-4 (80%) in matches and 29-12 (70%) in games.
So we have Innovation 5% better in both categories. But did they play a similar level of competition?
Let's find out!
This is average Aligulac rating of Maru's opponents from July: 1603
This is average Aligulac rating of Innovation's opponents from July: 1429
So the answer is no. The closest people to a rating of 1603 are Nerchio and Genius (1602 apiece). The closest people to a rating of 1429 is SaSe, Goswser and MacSed (1430 for Sase and 1431 for the others).
Innovation padded his record with wins against low level Kespa players. That is very clear.
So statistically Maru has played better opponents, but Innovation has a better record. And that is completely ignoring the fact Maru swept Innovation in a best of 7.
But here is what you really should be asking, this isn't the regular season anymore, this is the playoffs, the semi finals, a loss eliminates you. If the #4 seed goes up against the #1, really in anything, and the #4 prevails, how dare you rank the #1 ahead of them after the #4 prevails?
That is the slap in the face of the #4. Of course their better, they just won! And it isn't like this is the start of 32 man tournament, where if the #16 upsets the #1, it says more about the #1 being bad than the #16 being good, this is the final four, they are all good.
That is how every other power rank works. Again, when the Patriots defeated the Rams in 2001, they were #1 in every football power rank, even though the Rams were heavily favored and had a recent Superbowl victory. The NCCA does the same with basketball. The #1 ceases to be the #1 when they lose in the final 4.
But I can just see all the Innovation lovers and the TL writers running up to Maru after the match saying "Wow, you're so good, you just beat Innovation, you're #4 in our Power Rank!" then quickly running over to Innovation saying "Oh man, nice try, but you're still #1 in our Power Rank, don't worry, you're still the best! We know you won't drop a map to Combatex in WCG!"
But the definition of "best" says otherwise.
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the power rank doesn't provide the stability in rankings yet, that the BW power rank had. This is not the authors fault, as they try to pick the exact best 10 people for the powerrank and give a lot of thought to it, but it is "inside the game"
Im afraid sc2 is to volatile to have a good PR in the near future. Perhaps it will slow down in a while, that remains to be seen.
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On August 09 2013 08:49 Cele wrote:
the power rank doesn't provide the stability in rankings yet, that the BW power rank had. This is not the authors fault, as they try to pick the exact best 10 people for the powerrank and give a lot of thought to it, but it is "inside the game"
Im afraid sc2 is to volatile to have a good PR in the near future. Perhaps it will slow down in a while, that remains to be seen.
well, they put a lot of focus on Proleague in the last 2PRs. This PR there was hardly any Proleague to consider and now suddenly all the Kespa players "fall off" and the eSF guys "rise".
The thing is, it's not like Maru and Bomber and Hyun "just recently" becaome good. They were simply underrated because of the overwhealming amount of games played in Proleague.
The problem is not the game, the problem is that we have a thousand different leagues/tournaments that take place all the time and the PR depends on who played where, which just means that it will hugely favor players that play a lot, over player that don't play as much because their tournaments/leagues just ended. It's not the skill that is fluctuating.
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Best Power Rank i've seen so far, well done.
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Due to the way the Aligulac system works, a lot of Kespa players are currently underrated. They need to play enough games with eSF players for points to start transferring. Their default points are extremely low. It's the same reason why Lucifron is rated higher than Jangbi.
Besides these Kespa 'no-namers' are already beginning to break into Code A and Code S (pigbaby anyone?).
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Where in the hell is Classic? He wasn't even mentioned in the special slots, despite playing like a beast in PL.
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disagree with taeja, but lets just wait and see i suppose.
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I can't wait for this finals tomorrow going to be phyco
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On August 09 2013 08:58 PerSe wrote:
Due to the way the Aligulac system works, a lot of Kespa players are currently underrated. They need to play enough games with eSF players for points to start transferring. Their default points are extremely low. It's the same reason why Lucifron is rated higher than Jangbi.
Besides these Kespa 'no-namers' are already beginning to break into Code A and Code S (pigbaby anyone?).
I know, we really shouldn't weigh statistics and matchups too heavily, but we should be looking at head to head results. And Maru 4-0ed Innovation.
That's all we needed to know. Remember, "We don't race dynosheets, we race cars."
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On August 09 2013 09:08 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 08:58 PerSe wrote:
Due to the way the Aligulac system works, a lot of Kespa players are currently underrated. They need to play enough games with eSF players for points to start transferring. Their default points are extremely low. It's the same reason why Lucifron is rated higher than Jangbi.
Besides these Kespa 'no-namers' are already beginning to break into Code A and Code S (pigbaby anyone?).
I know, we really shouldn't weigh statistics and matchups too heavily, but we should be looking at head to head results. And Maru 4-0ed Innovation. That's all we needed to know. Remember, "We don't race dynosheets, we race cars."
So my Haypro>Nestea argument is true? Cool I always knew he was the one true WoL Banjo.
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EPT
