After a short delay to see a few more results (notably ASUS ROG Summer), it's time to roll out the power rank for this month. Last month's Power Rank saw INnoVation top the chart, and to no one's surprise, he's up at #1 again. But the players at #2 to #10? They might surprise you.
Before we continue, here is an overly simplified version of our criteria as always.
Results: Obviously, this will be the basis of any power rank. And since this is a monthly power rank, we'll be mainly focusing on results from the last month, that is the month of July. Previous HotS results will also be taken into account as well, but with less weight.
Difficulty of opponents: Let's put it this way: if the PR existed last year, we probably wouldn't have given PartinG the #1 spot for his BWC run.
Quality of play: How impressed were we with this player's performance, especially over the last month?
Summary, not a predictor: The PR is a rating based on previous results, not a scouting report for who will do well in the future. We can't believe this is not completely obvious.
Samsung_JangBi: The KHAN ace continues to have one the best winrates in HotS but manages to lose just enough games so that he never actually manages to accomplish anything substantial.
AX.Alicia & Azubu.San: Had statistically great months no one will care about because they didn't top it with a championship. Oh, to be Korean.
Close But No Cigar
KT_Flash: Being the only player to perform in the Proleague playoffs for KT wasn't enough to get Flash on the Power Rank this month. His disappointing exit from the OSL put a huge damper on his image and his past laurels and achievements were just not enough to put him through.
MVP.Dream: The youngster from MVP was their only player who significantly contributed for them in the GSTL finals against LG-IM. He also had a great run through the Challenger League, qualifying for Code S by showing impressive games against RorO and Fantasy. Dream finished the period with a 13 - 3 record, though a part of it is padded by a four-kill against ROOT in the ATC.
EG.Revival: Revival almost made it on the list, but our decision to wait a day saw him get knocked out of the WCS AM Ro16. Even though he has the case for possibly the best player on EG(?) by winning IEM Shanghai, following it up with such an immediate disappointment pushes him out of the PR.
IM_YongHwa: Yonghwa all-killed Axiom-Acer in GSTL, showing dominant play in each game. Throughout the entire series, it never looked as if Yonghwa was in any significant danger of ever losing a game. Yonghwa also defeated three of the strongest Protoss in the world (Trap, Super, Stats) on his way to qualifying for Premier League again. In total, Yonghwa is 11-2 this month. While he's just barely edged out this month, we'll be sure to remember him in next month's ranking should he continue this success.
sOs won gold over Flash in the Asian Indoor Games, re-qualified for Code S, and won his game in the Proleague playoffs.
It wasn't much to go by, but there really wasn't anything negative to say about sOs last month. It's a bit of a safe choice to go with an established player who has done nothing wrong than try and slot in a recently hot player, but we think it's the right choice given the CNBC candidates this month. sOs is obviously a great player and will probably retake his spot higher in the ranks once he gets more chances to show off what he can do in the coming months.
Supernova played his heart out this season and was just barely stopped from qualifying for the WCS Season 2 finals. In the quarter-final match against Rain, and then the fifth place match against First, Supernova lost 2 - 3 to two of the best PvT players in the world.
It was a fun ride for all of us though, as Supernova's consistently aggressive style made for very exciting games. He was also consistent and persistent in making hellbats post-hellbat nerf, a testament to his ability to invent and refine builds suitable to his style. He defeated Parting, Squirtle, Trap, and Soulkey during his OSL 6th place run, with his 2 - 1 victory over Soulkey being one of the most entertaining series of the season.
Though we probably won't see him for a while, we look forward to seeing more great results from Supernova once Code S starts up again.
As far as travel goes, Hyun is the MC of 2013. Having participated in last seven premier international tournaments of the year, Hyun certainly has had a lot of opportunities to prove himself. In June, Hyun earned a second place placing at MLG Spring, losing in a close 2-3 to Polt. In July, Hyun out ZvZed Jaedong to earn his first championship.
But attending so many tournaments comes at a price, at least in terms of Power Rank placement. Hyun has certainly won a lot more tournament games of SC2 than anyone in the world in the past few months, but he's also LOST quite few games in that time. The breadth of games does a good job to highlight his strengths, but it also serves to highlight his glaring weaknesses.
Hyun's current Kryptonite? Protoss. Hyun's path to win Dreamhack Valencia this month was clear of any notable Protoss players. Meanwhile, in each of the other tournament's he's participated in, he's completely fallen apart against almost every Protoss thrust upon him. Hyun was knocked out of IEM Shanghai with a 0-3 loss to HerO, ASUS ROG Summer with a 0-3 loss to San, and WCS AM Challenger League with a 1-2 to Puck. Hyun even struggled to defeat viPro and Welmu at ASUS ROG, barely defeating them by 3 - 2 mapscores largely thanks to his opponents' mistakes.
If power ranks were released near the middle of July, First would have placed much higher. He was the bandwagon king at that time, impressing everyone with his PvT against Fantasy in the OSL (Game 1, Game 2). Fantasy looked completely lost as he was played like a mandolin around the map. Days later, First showed equal skill at PvP against the supposed King of Protoss, Rain. He then proceeded to be an MVP for his team in the GSTL finals, starting his team off with a 2 map advantage, all the while playing the most entertaining TvP of the year.
If only the month had ended there.
Going into the OSL Ro8, First was looking to be a somewhat even match against Bomber. However, the result was anything but close. We gave First a lot of points for quality of play in his Ro16 matches, but we had to take almost as many away from him for his performance in the Ro8. Not only was the result a clean-cut 3-0, Bomber bullied him like the short kid on the playground in three straight games. This thrashing looked even more damning when fellow Protoss Rain soundly defeated Bomber in turn, showing that a top class player could brush off Bomber's shenanigans.
Though he's certainly redeemed himself with his qualification to the WCS Season Finals (especially that series against Supernova), those three Bomber games will leave the biggest impression for the foreseeable future.
Just as HerO gains strength in the winter and Protosses begin their reigns in the fall, TaeJa will most certainly win tournaments in the summer. TaeJa is the first player in the world to win two Premier HotS tournaments and he's looking to go for his third in WCS AM. His list of wins the past month spans over a page on TLPD and very few players have been able to take him down. Though he hasn't had the most difficult opponents, TaeJa is looking more and more like his old 2012 self once again.
TaeJa's style has also noticeably changed ever so slightly. In an interview, TaeJa admitted that he was getting too hard-countered because of his tendency for macro builds. But now that he's beginning to opt for more aggressive options, his win-rates have shot up and he's feeling more confident than ever. An even stronger TaeJa? We shudder at the thought.
In all seriousness, isn't Bomber's Law dead by now ([Editor's note: No])? A long time ago, Bomber, along with Mvp, was looking to be one of the best Terrans in the world. Then in GSL July 2011, Bomber hit the Ro8, matching up against Byun. The first two games were compete stomps by Bomber and he looked better than he ever had. The next three were slow, painful, and agonizing defeats, almost as if Bomber was trying to give the games away to his opponent. And so Bomber's Law was born and fans were forever destined to be disappointed. For those of you in the dark:
Corollary to Bomber's Law: If Bomber does not disappoint, it will be in order to set up a bigger disappointment later.
This narrative is all hunky dory, but it seems ill-suited when applied to Bomber in the month of July. After all, when taken to the extreme, couldn't any combination of results be said to have invoked Bomber's Law? In July, Bomber dodged his weakest matchup in TvZ and took out some impressive (though at the time all overrated) players in Innovation, Flash, and First. He then lost to the more recently accomplished Rain in the OSL and in his weak matchup to Life in the RSL.
I present to you this alternate narrative: Bomber is a fairly good, albeit inconsistent player with his personal strengths, weaknesses, and struggles. Due to variance, he will sometimes overperform and other times underperform his true skill level. A lot more boring, I know, but probably more accurate description of Bomber's current condition ([Editor's note: How about no?]).
At the beginning of the month, no one expected Maru to end up in the OSL finals. As the youngest son of a weakened and withering last place GSTL team, Maru had the odds against him. Sure, he might have gotten past his relatively easy Ro16 group, but after that, it seemed like he would be hard pressed to move onwards. Few thought he could get past Symbol and even fewer would have bet on him over Innovation.
But he beat both in style. Against Symbol, Maru employed his micro and his constant repair of his own medivacs to overpower the seemingly much sloppier player. Against Innovation, Maru deployed cheese after cheese, targeting his opponent's weakened mental state. With his 4-0, Maru achieved a 3.03% likelihood event (according to Aligulac.com).
Maru goes into the finals with the opponent he desires. He claims his TvP is his strongest matchup, but his opponent has already proven himself to be the strongest PvT player there is. Should Maru win, he'll complete the legend of the young prodigies: Maru, Life, and Creator will each have won a major title. Should he lose, he may fall into that cluster of just very good Koreans yet again.
Soulkey's live results this month actually put him only at 7-7. But I guess that's what happens when you face INoVation's TvZ four times in a row.
Funnily enough, even though Soulkey lost six games in ZvT this month, he still looked like the best Zerg in the world while doing so, especially in this game, one that will remain a classic for a long while. Soulkey's losses make you question not his ability but whether INnoVation's brand of TvZ is actually balanced.
We gave Soulkey a lot of benefit of the doubt this month for his stunning overall quality of his play and because he is still technically the defending Korean champion. But next month, a new WCS KR champion will be crowned and with Proleague finished for the year, Soulkey will have to impress us a lot more to keep from falling even further.
At the beginning of the month, we would have never dreamed that Rain would be this high on the power rank. He completely failed his team when they needed him most during the Proleague playoffs, going 0 - 3 including a loss in a crucial ace match. Rain also showed weakness in the OSL, having a particularly hard time getting out of his group. Eventually, he forced his group into tiebreakers, giving us this rather bizarre ending to an already bizarre situation.
Yet Rain was able to swallow to disappointment of his Proleague losses and return to his winning ways. He defeated Supernova in the OSL Ro8 and then proceeded to crush an on-fire Bomber in the semifinals. He even made it to the Ro8 in the WCG KR qualifiers, defeating sOs and a seemingly reformed Creator along the way.
But perhaps the biggest story is not that Rain won these games but the in manner in which he won them. In total, Rain played thirteen important PvT matches in the month of July, leaving him rather exposed in the matchup. So finally Rain was forced to mix it up, adapting his usually safe play for a more varied style. This month, we got to see Rain show off his creativity, and while it wasn't awe inspiring by any means, we liked what we saw.
No, it was not standard Rain, but his calculated plays certainly had a Rain-ish feel to them. This month, Rain showed his willingness to adapt to changing circumstances, a trait usually found in champions.
Yes, he lost 0-4 to Maru. But besides that hiccup, Innovation probably had one of the most dominant months we've ever seen from a single player since the TaeJa of Summer '12. He led his team to a Proleague championship and 4-0'd his Zerg rival, Soulkey, considered by most to be Korea's best Zerg at the moment.
But did you also know that Innovation qualified for IEM Shanghai (which he declined so he could go win Proleague instead) and also advanced to the Ro8 in the WCG KR qualifiers?
Not only does Innovation TvZ continue to look mostly unstoppable, he actually has not lost an offline macro TvP in four months. Going into the WCS Season 2 Finals, Innovation will be the strong favorite, and he'll have a chance to avenge himself against Maru and Bomber to prove that you only get lucky once.
Not the most controversial ranking, seems pretty accurate as far as current standings are. Happy to see HyuN on the power rankings for the first time too, but hope he can maintain it by not attending too many tournaments.
Pretty surprised that Jangbi isn't in the top10 this month*
I wouldnt call roflstomping his way back into Premier(code S) 4 : 0 against avenge and leenock and not even needing to go to Up&Downs "nothing accomplished of substantial".
Pretty good Power Rank, I only disagree with INnoVation being 1st again. Yes he's awesome, but I feel like you give him too much credit for winning Proleague when he hasn't lived up to expectations this month, and in the Bomber piece you concede that he's overrated? Just feels a bit weird. Other than that though spot on.
It is kinda stupid when you can have 5 new people in the top 10 of power rank in one month. This game is either to volatile or the skill gaps arent wide enough to even warrant a list then. Flash was in like the BW power rank for years in SC2 he drops out after 1 month. There is no need for a power rank if the guys that get through wcs korea are going to get top billing every month. All the quarter finalists from WCS Korea are in the top 10.... lets be serious how many of those guys if matched 1 on 1 in best of 5 vs Flash, would be considered favorite by the public?
On August 09 2013 00:26 Quateras wrote: Pretty surprised that Jangbi isn't in the top10 this month*
I wouldnt call roflstomping his way back into Premier(code S) 4 : 0 against avenge and leenock and not even needing to go to Up&Downs "nothing accomplished of substantial".
You make a good point. He was also pretty clutch in PL like sHy.
On August 09 2013 00:44 ChoiSulli wrote: It is kinda stupid when you can have 5 new people in the top 10 of power rank in one month. This game is either to volatile or the skill gaps arent wide enough to even warrant a list then. Flash was in like the BW power rank for years in SC2 he drops out after 1 month. There is no need for a power rank if the guys that get through wcs korea are going to get top billing every month. All the quarter finalists from WCS Korea are in the top 10.... lets be serious how many of those guys if matched 1 on 1 in best of 5 vs Flash, would be considered favorite by the public?
There's a lot of shit going on man. WCS tries hard to centralize shit, but the truth is it really doesn't. I honestly want to see all the big names competing in the same spot time and time again.
I don't understand why Teaja is 6th. Well, he won a tournament, but he only played with only one good Korean (Alicia) and he barely won that Bo5 with 3-2.
I think that "Difficulty of opponents" plays a role in those power ranks. Also Soulkey 3rd? I think he is maybe 4th or even 5th.
I think Flash is better than SuperNoVa at all times... Realize the TvT matchup when Flash exited the OSL... HellBats.. and Hellbats are something that require little micro and don't play to Flash's strengths
On August 09 2013 00:40 Sevre wrote: Pretty good Power Rank, I only disagree with INnoVation being 1st again. Yes he's awesome, but I feel like you give him too much credit for winning Proleague when he hasn't lived up to expectations this month, and in the Bomber piece you concede that he's overrated? Just feels a bit weird. Other than that though spot on.
seriously? who can you put as number 1 then? Maru?
On August 09 2013 00:40 Sevre wrote: Pretty good Power Rank, I only disagree with INnoVation being 1st again. Yes he's awesome, but I feel like you give him too much credit for winning Proleague when he hasn't lived up to expectations this month, and in the Bomber piece you concede that he's overrated? Just feels a bit weird. Other than that though spot on.
seriously? who can you put as number 1 then? Maru?
I'm noticing a pattern in all of the write ups for this power rank. Some variation of, "we thought based on ProLeague X when in reality Y."
Much improved power rank from last month. The heavy proleague bias is finally gone and instead replaced with a much more comprehensive power rank that's far more accurate imo than last month.
and BTW guys Innovation is still number 1 in the world. TL got this 100% right, one 4-0 in TvT doesn't change the fact that guy has looked completely unstoppable in both TvZ and TvP for all of season 2.
On August 09 2013 00:44 ChoiSulli wrote: It is kinda stupid when you can have 5 new people in the top 10 of power rank in one month. This game is either to volatile or the skill gaps arent wide enough to even warrant a list then. Flash was in like the BW power rank for years in SC2 he drops out after 1 month. There is no need for a power rank if the guys that get through wcs korea are going to get top billing every month. All the quarter finalists from WCS Korea are in the top 10.... lets be serious how many of those guys if matched 1 on 1 in best of 5 vs Flash, would be considered favorite by the public?
On August 09 2013 00:44 ChoiSulli wrote: It is kinda stupid when you can have 5 new people in the top 10 of power rank in one month. This game is either to volatile or the skill gaps arent wide enough to even warrant a list then. Flash was in like the BW power rank for years in SC2 he drops out after 1 month. There is no need for a power rank if the guys that get through wcs korea are going to get top billing every month. All the quarter finalists from WCS Korea are in the top 10.... lets be serious how many of those guys if matched 1 on 1 in best of 5 vs Flash, would be considered favorite by the public?
Hots was released very recently, the game still isn't fully figured out/patched. The volatility is part of what makes it exciting, I'm pretty sure Broodwar wasn't fully stable upon release either.
Oh and if you matched the quarterfinalists vs Flash I'd take Innovation and Rain without second thoughts. I'd probably take Maru too.
On August 09 2013 00:40 Sevre wrote: Pretty good Power Rank, I only disagree with INnoVation being 1st again. Yes he's awesome, but I feel like you give him too much credit for winning Proleague when he hasn't lived up to expectations this month, and in the Bomber piece you concede that he's overrated? Just feels a bit weird. Other than that though spot on.
seriously? who can you put as number 1 then? Maru?
Eh, probably Rain.
Rain went 0-3 in the playoffs (including losing to innovation in the ace) and played some pretty disappointing games. His only good results right now are in the WCS. Edit: I do think if he wins vs Maru he certainly deserves an argument though.
Hmm Hyun and Taeja I don't know really, they seem too weak for the top 10 really. I don't value results outside of korea much really and hyun especially just looked atrocious vs protoss that he isn't top 10 worthy imo. I'd put players like Symbol, Flash and Yongwha over them for sure.
That's basically the thing I dislike about WCS, it separates the community too much.
whenever i read these sc2 "powerranks" i shed a tear jd probably should ve been mentioned except his attrocious zvp he is actually looking like a good player right now
On August 09 2013 01:15 {ToT}ColmA wrote: whenever i read these sc2 "powerranks" i shed a tear jd probably should ve been mentioned except his attrocious zvp he is actually looking like a good player right now
I don't think so. His ZvZ strength is padded by playing a lot of foreign zergs. He's good, but not Power Rank good IMO.
While Flash is a top terran, the sad truth is that his only amazing match up atm is TvZ. He's superior to Taeja though, that's for sure.
Of the new entrants to the power rank the only two who I consider to have any real staying power based on quality of play are First and Bomber.
As for SK, he's the undisputed best zerg in the world (nobody else even comes close). Yeah his record in ZvT hasn't been great recently but that's to be expected when you're constantly facing Innovation.
On August 09 2013 01:16 PerSe wrote: While Flash is a top terran, the sad truth is that his only amazing match up atm is TvZ. He's superior to Taeja though, that's for sure.
Well, aligulac also ranks TaeJa above Flash. It's hard to compare the two though since they almost never play in the same competition. But seeing that TaeJa is winning tournaments and Flash is still struggeling in individual leagues it is understandable to place TaeJa above Flash.
his past laurels and achievements were just not enough to put him through
This should always be the case, esp. if most of his past laurels and achievements come from another game. Yeah, he's good in PL, but that seems to be all he's good at. Glad to see him finally dropped from the PR.
Really surprised Taeja made it to #6. Even with his win, he didn't play that many good Korean players, yeah? GJ on the championship though.
What is the difference between "Close but No Cigar" and "Special Mentions," by the way? They seem like somewhat the same category.
On August 09 2013 00:51 lamiller wrote: I think Flash is better than SuperNoVa at all times... Realize the TvT matchup when Flash exited the OSL... HellBats.. and Hellbats are something that require little micro and don't play to Flash's strengths
I think Supernova on the list and Flash not is kind of crazy, except I think the writers, to some extent, want to write about different players from time to time. I know the Rolling Stones like causing controversy to get views, TL might be guilty to a lesser extent.
I don't think that any zerg should be in the top 5 at the moment. Soulkey also lost to Supernova in the WCS Season 2 qualifiers and zergs overall aren't doing too well lately.
For those who aren't giving enough credit to Innovation's carry through the Proleague, you have to realize that the PL is the most coveted trophy in the Starcarft world and while there are other leagues and trophies the Proleague is like the most important. It's like the English Premier League. While there's still the WCS Finals which is kind of like the UEFA Champions league, everyone knows that the EPL is the best and most competitive national league. To win the proleague and to be known to have carried the team, Innovation deserves the spot with the proleague trophy giving much weight.
Now, with Proleague over, I think it comes down to the 1 on 1 capability of players going into deep tournaments with long series. Bo5's and Bo7's are a whole new beast and KESPA players aren't as used to it, I don't think. The next power rank should be interesting because we will see if Innovation, Rain, and Soulkey can win extended series again.
On August 09 2013 01:16 PerSe wrote: While Flash is a top terran, the sad truth is that his only amazing match up atm is TvZ. He's superior to Taeja though, that's for sure.
Well, aligulac also ranks TaeJa above Flash. It's hard to compare the two though since they almost never play in the same competition. But seeing that TaeJa is winning tournaments and Flash is still struggeling in individual leagues it is understandable to place TaeJa above Flash.
Flash hasn't made into Ro 8 in osl gsl for consistent 5 seasons. I wouldn't rank him too high in this case despite the proleague results which there aren't much this month.
On August 09 2013 01:53 LittleRedBoy wrote: I don't think that any zerg should be in the top 5 at the moment. Soulkey also lost to Supernova in the WCS Season 2 qualifiers and zergs overall aren't doing too well lately.
Agreed. Soulkey definitely the best Zerg. But doesn't deserve top 3 for sure.
I feel like Innovation shouldn't be #1 after going 0-6 against bomber and maru, but then again I can't think of anyone else that should be there so #1 it is.
On August 09 2013 02:06 fuzzylogic44 wrote: I feel like Innovation shouldn't be #1 after going 0-6 against bomber and maru, but then again I can't think of anyone else that should be there so #1 it is.
His consistency is key though. He is the only Terran out of those 3 that advanced to the Ro8 in the WCG qualifiers (Bomber lost to Sora 0-2 in the qualifier final, and Maru lost 0-2 to Zest in the same stage), and beat a red hot Myungsik who was displaying some sick play (the classic online warrior type, given his offline performance) in the IEM qualifiers.
I don't think losing games after large metagame shifts (post Hellbat) is really representative of anything, but that's just my opinion.
Thank you for being against that bomber's law shit. Anybody who is at his level will win and then lose. Why the fuck do people think that that is exclusive to bomber? And the joke is so old, too. Unfortunately, the SC community is relatively large so even though it may be old to many people, there will still be enough people it won't be old to so they can join in on the fun and repeat the joke again and again so they can feel like they're "in"! Hooray!
On August 09 2013 01:53 LittleRedBoy wrote: I don't think that any zerg should be in the top 5 at the moment. Soulkey also lost to Supernova in the WCS Season 2 qualifiers and zergs overall aren't doing too well lately.
Agreed. Soulkey definitely the best Zerg. But doesn't deserve top 3 for sure.
*Looks at the guys who beat him* Even though Innovation won on the score sheet; SoulKey still looked scary in some of those games. He does have a tendency to overdo it when it comes to his macro decision-making though.
On August 09 2013 00:49 CNSnow wrote: I don't understand why Teaja is 6th. Well, he won a tournament, but he only played with only one good Korean (Alicia) and he barely won that Bo5 with 3-2.
I think that "Difficulty of opponents" plays a role in those power ranks. Also Soulkey 3rd? I think he is maybe 4th or even 5th.
I understand your point, but TaeJa won 2 tournaments, not one (HSC and ASUS ROG). He also qualified for wcs america ro8 defeating some tough opponents like Polt and aLive. At ASUS ROG he didn't beat only aLicia, but Hyun and San too. Also, TaeJa has always been reliable in teamleagues, scoring occasional all-kills or 4kills in the acer teamstory cup. If we want to talk about results, Flash didn't do so well in comparison, apart for a couple of good performances in pro league. By the way, i like the power rankings, but I think that every player in the top 10 is really close in term of skills, and it's difficult to give them an order.
On August 09 2013 01:53 LittleRedBoy wrote: I don't think that any zerg should be in the top 5 at the moment. Soulkey also lost to Supernova in the WCS Season 2 qualifiers and zergs overall aren't doing too well lately.
Agreed. Soulkey definitely the best Zerg. But doesn't deserve top 3 for sure.
*Looks at the guys who beat him* Even though Innovation won on the score sheet; SoulKey still looked scary in some of those games. He does have a tendency to overdo it when it comes to his macro decision-making though.
He also lost to supernova in straight macro game. I would not put supernova's t v z in the highest level. Soulkey is fearless in z v z and z v p maybe. But his z v t, I am really not sure. In fact he hasn't beat any high level Terran I can recall. So therefore soulkey is the best Zerg, I just don't think any Zerg deserve top 5 in this list.
On August 09 2013 00:44 ChoiSulli wrote: It is kinda stupid when you can have 5 new people in the top 10 of power rank in one month. This game is either to volatile or the skill gaps arent wide enough to even warrant a list then. Flash was in like the BW power rank for years in SC2 he drops out after 1 month. There is no need for a power rank if the guys that get through wcs korea are going to get top billing every month. All the quarter finalists from WCS Korea are in the top 10.... lets be serious how many of those guys if matched 1 on 1 in best of 5 vs Flash, would be considered favorite by the public?
"Game is bad because flash isn't in the power rank. Also, power rank is bad because flash isn't in it."
On August 09 2013 00:40 Sevre wrote: Pretty good Power Rank, I only disagree with INnoVation being 1st again. Yes he's awesome, but I feel like you give him too much credit for winning Proleague when he hasn't lived up to expectations this month, and in the Bomber piece you concede that he's overrated? Just feels a bit weird. Other than that though spot on.
Best TvZ and TvP in the entire world makes him #1 even if his TvT is slightly weak (losing to top Terrans). Nobody else on that list can claim matchup dominance on the level of Innovation. If Innovation had gone 0-6 but it was 0-2 in every matchup, I'd be saying "ok, maybe he isn't #1 right now", but it is literally ONLY TvT losses.
People who are like "AMG HE LOST" forgets that StarCraft 2 has multiple matchups.
Happy that Inno is still #1. Sure he had that hiccup against Maru, but he destroyed everything else. The games he lost to Maru weren't because Maru simply had more skill.
Monk, wouldn't you say Flash's 2 wins in playoffs (only for his team), 2-0 against Bbyong and 2-0 against Effort to return to Code S is enough to at least keep him on the top 10? The ranks are jumping around so much every month that at least half of the players are "New!" any time.
On August 09 2013 00:44 ChoiSulli wrote: It is kinda stupid when you can have 5 new people in the top 10 of power rank in one month. This game is either to volatile or the skill gaps arent wide enough to even warrant a list then. Flash was in like the BW power rank for years in SC2 he drops out after 1 month. There is no need for a power rank if the guys that get through wcs korea are going to get top billing every month. All the quarter finalists from WCS Korea are in the top 10.... lets be serious how many of those guys if matched 1 on 1 in best of 5 vs Flash, would be considered favorite by the public?
Hots was released very recently, the game still isn't fully figured out/patched. The volatility is part of what makes it exciting, I'm pretty sure Broodwar wasn't fully stable upon release either.
Oh and if you matched the quarterfinalists vs Flash I'd take Innovation and Rain without second thoughts. I'd probably take Maru too.
The volatility doesn't make it exciting, it makes it worse as an esport.
On August 09 2013 00:44 ChoiSulli wrote: It is kinda stupid when you can have 5 new people in the top 10 of power rank in one month. This game is either to volatile or the skill gaps arent wide enough to even warrant a list then. Flash was in like the BW power rank for years in SC2 he drops out after 1 month. There is no need for a power rank if the guys that get through wcs korea are going to get top billing every month. All the quarter finalists from WCS Korea are in the top 10.... lets be serious how many of those guys if matched 1 on 1 in best of 5 vs Flash, would be considered favorite by the public?
Hots was released very recently, the game still isn't fully figured out/patched. The volatility is part of what makes it exciting, I'm pretty sure Broodwar wasn't fully stable upon release either.
Oh and if you matched the quarterfinalists vs Flash I'd take Innovation and Rain without second thoughts. I'd probably take Maru too.
The volatility doesn't make it exciting, it makes it worse as an esport.
double standards... soulkey is 3rd and he got so many credits and there are doubts about bomber just because of his past??? if we look at past then why do we have flash out of top10 or symbol etc... power rank should look only results in one month and in description it is said like that but soulkey beats that description..
problem is with hyun and supernova too.. hyun lost in wcs am and that is bigger thing than his winning, he is not top10 player, jangbi is on the other hand.. supernova should be no10, maybe.. i doubt he deserves his spot
On August 09 2013 03:45 purgerinho wrote: double standards... soulkey is 3rd and he got so many credits and there are doubts about bomber just because of his past??? if we look at past then why do we have flash out of top10 or symbol etc... power rank should look only results in one month and in description it is said like that but soulkey beats that description..
problem is with hyun and supernova too.. hyun lost in wcs am and that is bigger thing than his winning, he is not top10 player, jangbi is on the other hand.. supernova should be no10, maybe.. i doubt he deserves his spot
I think Polt should've been on the list instead of Hyun. Pretty good list except no Polt lol.
So SuperNova SCV-pulling his heart out and consistently aggressive allins net him the 6th spot. Theres one thing Im sure about this dude: once he falls out of the league, hes out for good.
Taeja's place is actually not surprising. We all know he would get a spot whenever he won another yet another euro tourney
On August 09 2013 03:51 Arceus wrote: So SuperNova SCV-pulling his heart out and consistently aggressive allins net him the 6th spot. Theres one thing Im sure about this dude: once he falls out of the league, hes out for good.
Taeja's place is actually not surprising. We all know he would get a spot whenever he won another yet another euro tourney
To be fair, people said Supernova were out for good after he dropped out of the GSL just before getting his Nestea award, yet here he is again. If there is one thing you can never say in Starcraft, it's that someone is out for good. Look at July in BW or Mvp in WoL. These guys are good, even when they're not winning.
For the first time I really agree with this list.. I am glad to see more focus on WCS then proleague since that's how it should be. Also glad to see Flash get knocked out of PR, since all he has been doing is disappoint in WCS.. + Show Spoiler +
Hes still a beast in proleague do.. but i do think that WCS takes more skill.. + Show Spoiler +
On August 09 2013 03:59 ShadowBrood wrote: too much hype about innovation hes not that great....
why ? Because he lost 0-4 to Maru ? TvT is his weakest matchup, u just made non sense overall nice article, can't agree any more with this month PR
It had less to do with TvT and more to do with Maru cleverly manipulating Innovation's expectations. Maru gambled that he could break Innovation's composure and he succeeded.
On August 09 2013 03:51 Arceus wrote: So SuperNova SCV-pulling his heart out and consistently aggressive allins net him the 6th spot. Theres one thing Im sure about this dude: once he falls out of the league, hes out for good.
Taeja's place is actually not surprising. We all know he would get a spot whenever he won another yet another euro tourney
Lol, winning is winning. Also did you see his placement matches? He's actually really sick good at macro games too.
Well hes really good but im just saying he doesn't look like number 1, he has a weakness, and thats TvT and Cheese. Hes also lost to best in the proleague playoffs, he wasn't unstoppable. i mean if we take out matchup weaknesses jaedong should be up there
I dont see how you can argue Innovation falling from 1st. So he lost to 2 terrans. online + offline since July 1st vZ: In these games, INnoVation is 14–2 (88%) in games and 8–1 (89%) in matches. vP: In these games, INnoVation is 9–3 (75%) in games and 6–1 (86%) in matches. vT: In these games, INnoVation is 7–7 (50%) in games and 4–2 (67%) in matches. oh no! 50%! and over half his losses came in 1 series. so bad!!! /sarcasm
overall: In these games, INnoVation is 30–12 (71%) in games and 18–4 (82%) in matches. poor guy only won 71% of his maps last month. SLUMP!!
Rain by comparison vZ: In these games, Rain is 5–3 (63%) in games and 3–1 (75%) in matches. vP: In these games, Rain is 6–6 (50%) in games and 4–4 (50%) in matches. vT: In these games, Rain is 12–4 (75%) in games and 5–1 (83%) in matches. overall: In these games, Rain is 23–13 (64%) in games and 12–6 (67%) in matches.
Rain has been coming on strong towards the end of the month but he still had a meh start. Innovation will still be the odds on favorite going into the S2 finals imo since he beat Rain in their last meeting and Maru/Bomber won't have as much time to prepare. His TvZ is still ridiculously dominant and his TvP is getting close to being the same
On August 09 2013 03:51 Arceus wrote: So SuperNova SCV-pulling his heart out and consistently aggressive allins net him the 6th spot. Theres one thing Im sure about this dude: once he falls out of the league, hes out for good.
Taeja's place is actually not surprising. We all know he would get a spot whenever he won another yet another euro tourney
he fell out not long ago and he's back in top 6 yo
I like this month powerrank. Innovation seems bit overhyped his TvT is not looking very good at all he is 0-6 after patch, but guess there is no one to really take that first place throne from him.
Just realized Flash has not played a lot matches lately, hope he will make it back to the top 10 next month
Also Maru's position is good. It's not just that he beat 4-0 Innovation, he also beat: sOs,Effort,Trap,Supernova and Symbol. None of them are easy opponents IMO it is far more impressive to beat those koreans than for example TaeJa beating bunch of foreigners and couple koreans. (He has also same record as Innovation last 10 games)
On August 09 2013 03:51 Arceus wrote: So SuperNova SCV-pulling his heart out and consistently aggressive allins net him the 6th spot. Theres one thing Im sure about this dude: once he falls out of the league, hes out for good.
Taeja's place is actually not surprising. We all know he would get a spot whenever he won another yet another euro tourney
he fell out not long ago and he's back in top 6 yo
On August 09 2013 03:51 Arceus wrote: So SuperNova SCV-pulling his heart out and consistently aggressive allins net him the 6th spot. Theres one thing Im sure about this dude: once he falls out of the league, hes out for good.
Taeja's place is actually not surprising. We all know he would get a spot whenever he won another yet another euro tourney
he fell out not long ago and he's back in top 6 yo
Top upsidedown 6?
Top 6 in OSL
opterown and Arceus were arguing about his GSL/OSL/WCS korea results
I feel like Polt should have been in there if Hyun is in the top ten and his only real loss in a tournament was 3-2 to Revival, the guy who won the tournament, but seeing as he hasn't played Ro16 of WCS AM yet, I guess I can see. I would rank him above Hyun, though. Especially since Hyun bombed the fuck out of AM.
On August 09 2013 00:40 Sevre wrote: Pretty good Power Rank, I only disagree with INnoVation being 1st again. Yes he's awesome, but I feel like you give him too much credit for winning Proleague when he hasn't lived up to expectations this month, and in the Bomber piece you concede that he's overrated? Just feels a bit weird. Other than that though spot on.
You know Innovation was 17-4 in matches in July, right?
Summary, not a predictor: The PR is a rating based on previous results, not a scouting report for who will do well in the future. We can't believe this is not completely obvious.
And yet, the reason that Innovation was chosen over Soulkey after Soulkey him defeated in the WCS KR Finals was:
On June 05 2013 09:11 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Think of it this way: you have to bet your life on either Soulkey or Innovation in a bo1 against an arbitrary player. Who would you choose?
Still can't believe it isn't completely obvious? Good.
I can't believe your love for Innovation is so ridiculous.
The power rank should be based on who the best player in the month. Innovation had some good game, he did. He also plays a lot and he is a great player. He had a lot of opportunities to show skills, many in team league formats.
But Maru smashed him. And he smashed Symbol.
Yet since he isn't on a Kespa team and thus doesn't to play as much, and since you love Innovation, you're going to rank Innovation ahead of the man that smashed him.
Perfect.
It makes absolutely no sense, and no other ranking system in the world works like this. When GSP lost to Matt Serra, Matt Serra shot to the top of the Welterweight rankings in MMA and did not cede that ranking until GSP beat him again. Sure, everybody thought Matt Serra wasn't the best, they thought GSP got unlucky and would beat him the rematch. But what we think doesn't matter, results matter. And GSP's ranking wouldn't have mattered if went and won some fights against lesser opponents either later. But for Innovation it does matter with you guys, because you're blinded by him.
Or maybe you guys just hate Maru, because Rain has an easier time to the same OSL finals spot (according to your very own rankings!), yet he is ranked ahead of Maru. Maybe I just fail to see how some WCG qualifiers (remember how far Combatex got last WCG... yeah... tough tournament...) and a team league should hold the same weight as an individual league when deciding who is the best individual player .
I mean, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team after they just won Proleague (though I believe that is a rhetorical question, I have my doubts you'd agree due to this crazy power rank... though Innovation is on STX and you guys love him so...)? So why argue that Maru isn't better than Innovation when Maru just swept him?
Don't ever forget, the better player at the moment, always wins. And Maru was a lot better when it counted (to the tune of sweeping your beloved #1). And he was the best SC2 player of July.
There is a very significant difference between MMA and Starcraft that you're forgetting about: match-ups.
I don't think you understand MMA then. Some fighters are better on the ground, some standing, ect... and it breaks down further, some are good with submissions, some good wrestling, some good with kicks...Travis Lutter was a superb jiu jitsu fighter on the ground, though his wrestling wasn't great and his standup was poor, so he never held the belt. Think of him as being awesome in TvP, but terrible in TvT and TvP. He matches up well with a kick boxer (Patrick Cote who he beat), but very poorly against someone who can strike and is good at defending submissions (Rich Franklin, who he lost too). The best champions are well rounded, both in MMA and SC2.
And how a fighters skillsets matchup with another is incredibly important in MMA.
Even so, let's ignore that piece of the argument. How bout the rest?
I mean, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team after they just won Proleague (though I believe that is a rhetorical question, I have my doubts you'd agree due to this crazy power rank... though Innovation is on STX and you guys love him so...)? So why argue that Maru isn't better than Innovation when Maru just swept him?
Surprisingly, this is a good power rank overall this month, taking into consideration that some August results got factored in as well.
Soulkey's placement is the only one I really disagree with. He's still #2 in my book over Rain due to also making the ro8 in WCG, having an excuse for going out 0-3 in the ro8 (RoBogus too stronk), having a more dominant run up until Bogus, and he had much better results than Rain up until this season.
There is a very significant difference between MMA and Starcraft that you're forgetting about: match-ups.
I don't think you understand MMA then. Some fighters are better on the ground, some standing, ect... and it breaks down further, some are good with submissions, some good wrestling, some good with kicks...Travis Lutter was a superb jiu jitsu fighter on the ground, though his wrestling wasn't great and his standup was poor, so he never held the belt. Think of him as being awesome in TvP, but terrible in TvT and TvP. He matches up well with a kick boxer (Patrick Cote who he beat), but very poorly against someone who can strike and is good at defending submissions (Rich Franklin, who he lost too). The best champions are well rounded, both in MMA and SC2.
And how a fighters skillsets matchup with another is incredibly important in MMA.
Even so, let's ignore that piece of the argument. How bout the rest?
I mean, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team after they just won Proleague (though I believe that is a rhetorical question, I have my doubts you'd agree due to this crazy power rank... though Innovation is on STX and you guys love him so...)? So why argue that Maru isn't better than Innovation when Maru just swept him?
Innovation: 17-4. Maru: 6-2. The only games Innovation has dropped were to Maru's sweep, and it's extremely unlikely that Maru could ever repeat that feat again.
MMA is not comparable. When Maru beats Innovation he's beating a Terran, not a player who's Terran is really good, Protoss somewhat good and Zerg shaky. It's black and white; the answer is very clear. Innovation's other match-ups are statistically much stronger right now than Maru's.
There is a very significant difference between MMA and Starcraft that you're forgetting about: match-ups.
I don't think you understand MMA then. Some fighters are better on the ground, some standing, ect... and it breaks down further, some are good with submissions, some good wrestling, some good with kicks...Travis Lutter was a superb jiu jitsu fighter on the ground, though his wrestling wasn't great and his standup was poor, so he never held the belt. Think of him as being awesome in TvP, but terrible in TvT and TvP. He matches up well with a kick boxer (Patrick Cote who he beat), but very poorly against someone who can strike and is good at defending submissions (Rich Franklin, who he lost too). The best champions are well rounded, both in MMA and SC2.
And how a fighters skillsets matchup with another is incredibly important in MMA.
Even so, let's ignore that piece of the argument. How bout the rest?
I mean, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team after they just won Proleague (though I believe that is a rhetorical question, I have my doubts you'd agree due to this crazy power rank... though Innovation is on STX and you guys love him so...)? So why argue that Maru isn't better than Innovation when Maru just swept him?
Innovation: 17-4. Maru: 11-5. The only games Innovation has dropped were to Maru's sweep, and it's extremely unlikely that Maru could ever repeat that feat again.
MMA is not comparable. When Maru beats Innovation he's beating a Terran, not a player who's Terran is really good, Protoss somewhat good and Zerg shaky. It's black and white; the answer is very clear. Innovation's other match-ups are statistically much stronger right now than Maru's.
First, you're breaking one of the Power Rank rules that the writers seem to occasionally follow. This is based on results, not prediction. It doesn't matter if Maru could or couldn't repeat the feat, he already did it, it is done and it is the results.
Second, MMA is a great comparison. vP, vZ and vT are the three matchups that each player focuses on, and pretty much everybody is better in some than others. In the case of both Maru and Innovation, it is TvP, TvZ and TvT. The same can be said about MMA, you go up against people who are good at wrestling, good at submissions and good at striking. Depending on what your skillset is, it changes the matchup. So if you're a good wrestler, you'll face other good wrestlers, submission artists or strikers. Or it could be said WvW, WvSA, WvS. Of course the best of both MMA and SC2 are great at all three.
Maru had a great run this month in WCS, and that combined with sweeping Innovation should be more than enough to rank him ahead of Innovation. I mean, he just swept the #1 guy in the world...
Finally, I don't understand how you think you can get away with saying things are black and white, and then say that Innovation is better than Maru, and Maru just 4-0ed Innovation.
Innovation is better than Maru, inc. this month. Innovation is also clearly superior in TvZ and TvP. Maru 4-sweeping Inno is well within the possibilities of variance.
i would place jaedong atleast to 10 or 9, before hyun... whos not even wcs premier america next season!!! lol on that... @Sevre winning a proleague is imho still count a lot more, than anything else. and he carried his team literaly to the titel for the whole 2013...
There is a very significant difference between MMA and Starcraft that you're forgetting about: match-ups.
I don't think you understand MMA then. Some fighters are better on the ground, some standing, ect... and it breaks down further, some are good with submissions, some good wrestling, some good with kicks...Travis Lutter was a superb jiu jitsu fighter on the ground, though his wrestling wasn't great and his standup was poor, so he never held the belt. Think of him as being awesome in TvP, but terrible in TvT and TvP. He matches up well with a kick boxer (Patrick Cote who he beat), but very poorly against someone who can strike and is good at defending submissions (Rich Franklin, who he lost too). The best champions are well rounded, both in MMA and SC2.
And how a fighters skillsets matchup with another is incredibly important in MMA.
Even so, let's ignore that piece of the argument. How bout the rest?
I mean, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team after they just won Proleague (though I believe that is a rhetorical question, I have my doubts you'd agree due to this crazy power rank... though Innovation is on STX and you guys love him so...)? So why argue that Maru isn't better than Innovation when Maru just swept him?
Innovation: 17-4. Maru: 11-5. The only games Innovation has dropped were to Maru's sweep, and it's extremely unlikely that Maru could ever repeat that feat again.
MMA is not comparable. When Maru beats Innovation he's beating a Terran, not a player who's Terran is really good, Protoss somewhat good and Zerg shaky. It's black and white; the answer is very clear. Innovation's other match-ups are statistically much stronger right now than Maru's.
First, you're breaking one of the Power Rank rules. This is based on results, not prediction. It doesn't matter if Maru could repeat the feat, he already did it, it is done and it is the results.
Second, MMA is a great comparison.
Finally, I don't understand how you think you can get away with saying things are black and white, and then say that Innovation is better than Maru, and Maru just 4-0ed Innovation.
This isn't prediction, these are the odds that Maru has given their past results. As mentioned above, it's probable to be within range of variance that Maru pulls out a 4-0. Without better results, theres nothing to show within reasonable doubt Maru can consistently repeat this feat. There is a lack of data. Innovation has more positive data. So instead of overreacting and declaring Maru is the best player in the world right now, it's simply acknowledged with that he took a series off Innovation.
MMA is not a good comparison. If you need to compare how stats work then cite the stats in SC2, don't fall back on vague MMA analogies that don't translate completely.
I most certainly can get away with saying it's black and white. I never said Innovation is better than Maru, I said Innovation is statistically better than Maru, most especially this month. 17-4 17-4 vs 6-2. Which one looks better?
On August 09 2013 06:09 PerSe wrote: Innovation is better than Maru, inc. this month. Innovation is also clearly superior in TvZ and TvP. Maru 4-sweeping Inno is well within the possibilities of variance.
Again, you're breaking one of the Power Rank rules that the writers seem to occasionally follow. This is based on results, not prediction. It doesn't matter if Maru could or couldn't repeat the feat, or that it was within "variance."
Summary, not a predictor: The PR is a rating based on previous results, not a scouting report for who will do well in the future. We can't believe this is not completely obvious.
There is a very significant difference between MMA and Starcraft that you're forgetting about: match-ups.
I don't think you understand MMA then. Some fighters are better on the ground, some standing, ect... and it breaks down further, some are good with submissions, some good wrestling, some good with kicks...Travis Lutter was a superb jiu jitsu fighter on the ground, though his wrestling wasn't great and his standup was poor, so he never held the belt. Think of him as being awesome in TvP, but terrible in TvT and TvP. He matches up well with a kick boxer (Patrick Cote who he beat), but very poorly against someone who can strike and is good at defending submissions (Rich Franklin, who he lost too). The best champions are well rounded, both in MMA and SC2.
And how a fighters skillsets matchup with another is incredibly important in MMA.
Even so, let's ignore that piece of the argument. How bout the rest?
I mean, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team after they just won Proleague (though I believe that is a rhetorical question, I have my doubts you'd agree due to this crazy power rank... though Innovation is on STX and you guys love him so...)? So why argue that Maru isn't better than Innovation when Maru just swept him?
Innovation: 17-4. Maru: 11-5. The only games Innovation has dropped were to Maru's sweep, and it's extremely unlikely that Maru could ever repeat that feat again.
MMA is not comparable. When Maru beats Innovation he's beating a Terran, not a player who's Terran is really good, Protoss somewhat good and Zerg shaky. It's black and white; the answer is very clear. Innovation's other match-ups are statistically much stronger right now than Maru's.
First, you're breaking one of the Power Rank rules. This is based on results, not prediction. It doesn't matter if Maru could repeat the feat, he already did it, it is done and it is the results.
Second, MMA is a great comparison.
Finally, I don't understand how you think you can get away with saying things are black and white, and then say that Innovation is better than Maru, and Maru just 4-0ed Innovation.
This isn't prediction, these are the odds that Maru has given their past results. MMA is not a good comparison. If you need to compare how stats work then cite the stats in SC2, don't fall back on vague MMA analogies that don't translate completely.
Well I can get away with being black and white. I never said Innovation is better than Maru, I said Innovation is statistically better than Maru, this month. 17-4 vs 11-5. Which one looks better?
These are individual rankings. There is an individual league where the best players play, WCS KR.
These are the statistics from this month.
Maru: 11-5 Innovation: 7-6
When I used to drag race my car (at the track), there was an old saying, "We don't race dyno sheets, we race cars." You might think the 900 HP Supra is going to beat the 700 HP Viper, but we actually race the cars to figure out who wins.
Now we play the game to find out who is better right, we don't just look at statistics, right?
This was the winner when they went head to head :
Maru 4-0 - Advances to the Final. Innovation 0-4 - Eliminated.
On August 09 2013 06:09 PerSe wrote: Innovation is better than Maru, inc. this month. Innovation is also clearly superior in TvZ and TvP. Maru 4-sweeping Inno is well within the possibilities of variance.
Again, you're breaking one of the Power Rank rules that the writers seem to occasionally follow. This is based on results, not prediction. It doesn't matter if Maru could or couldn't repeat the feat, or that it was within "variance."
Summary, not a predictor: The PR is a rating based on previous results, not a scouting report for who will do well in the future. We can't believe this is not completely obvious.
He did it, it is done and it is the results.
Again, it's not prediction. It's statistics. Even if you disclude the odds that were and still are against Maru, Innovation's match-ups are STILL much stronger than Maru's right now.
On August 09 2013 06:09 PerSe wrote: Innovation is better than Maru, inc. this month. Innovation is also clearly superior in TvZ and TvP. Maru 4-sweeping Inno is well within the possibilities of variance.
Again, you're breaking one of the Power Rank rules that the writers seem to occasionally follow. This is based on results, not prediction. It doesn't matter if Maru could or couldn't repeat the feat, or that it was within "variance."
Summary, not a predictor: The PR is a rating based on previous results, not a scouting report for who will do well in the future. We can't believe this is not completely obvious.
He did it, it is done and it is the results.
Again, it's not prediction. It's statistics. Even if you disclude the odds that were and still are against Maru, Innovation's match-ups are STILL much stronger than Maru's right now.
11-5 to 7-6, in the finals versus eliminated after being swept, but you're right Innovation individually is still stronger based on WCG and a team league.
On August 09 2013 06:09 PerSe wrote: Innovation is better than Maru, inc. this month. Innovation is also clearly superior in TvZ and TvP. Maru 4-sweeping Inno is well within the possibilities of variance.
Again, you're breaking one of the Power Rank rules that the writers seem to occasionally follow. This is based on results, not prediction. It doesn't matter if Maru could or couldn't repeat the feat, or that it was within "variance."
Summary, not a predictor: The PR is a rating based on previous results, not a scouting report for who will do well in the future. We can't believe this is not completely obvious.
There is a very significant difference between MMA and Starcraft that you're forgetting about: match-ups.
I don't think you understand MMA then. Some fighters are better on the ground, some standing, ect... and it breaks down further, some are good with submissions, some good wrestling, some good with kicks...Travis Lutter was a superb jiu jitsu fighter on the ground, though his wrestling wasn't great and his standup was poor, so he never held the belt. Think of him as being awesome in TvP, but terrible in TvT and TvP. He matches up well with a kick boxer (Patrick Cote who he beat), but very poorly against someone who can strike and is good at defending submissions (Rich Franklin, who he lost too). The best champions are well rounded, both in MMA and SC2.
And how a fighters skillsets matchup with another is incredibly important in MMA.
Even so, let's ignore that piece of the argument. How bout the rest?
I mean, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team after they just won Proleague (though I believe that is a rhetorical question, I have my doubts you'd agree due to this crazy power rank... though Innovation is on STX and you guys love him so...)? So why argue that Maru isn't better than Innovation when Maru just swept him?
Innovation: 17-4. Maru: 11-5. The only games Innovation has dropped were to Maru's sweep, and it's extremely unlikely that Maru could ever repeat that feat again.
MMA is not comparable. When Maru beats Innovation he's beating a Terran, not a player who's Terran is really good, Protoss somewhat good and Zerg shaky. It's black and white; the answer is very clear. Innovation's other match-ups are statistically much stronger right now than Maru's.
First, you're breaking one of the Power Rank rules. This is based on results, not prediction. It doesn't matter if Maru could repeat the feat, he already did it, it is done and it is the results.
Second, MMA is a great comparison.
Finally, I don't understand how you think you can get away with saying things are black and white, and then say that Innovation is better than Maru, and Maru just 4-0ed Innovation.
This isn't prediction, these are the odds that Maru has given their past results. MMA is not a good comparison. If you need to compare how stats work then cite the stats in SC2, don't fall back on vague MMA analogies that don't translate completely.
Well I can get away with being black and white. I never said Innovation is better than Maru, I said Innovation is statistically better than Maru, this month. 17-4 vs 11-5. Which one looks better?
These are individual rankings. There is an individual league where the best players play, WCS KR.
These are the statistics from this month.
Maru: 11-5 Innovation: 7-6
This was the winner when they went head to head :
Maru 4-0 - Advances to the Final. Innovation 0-4 - Eliminated.
We play the game to find out who is better right? So who was better.
Are you a little bit slower in the head? I mean really... it's plain simple:
The power rank is a ranking of all the players that play SC2 HotS. It includes ALL their achievements throughout the history of the game (HotS is a game. WoL and BW are a different game. WoL and BW aren't included.) with an EMPHASIS on this months performance. Yes, in one single match, Maru outperformed Innovation. Innovation has much better results than Maru overall, not only this month (see 17-4 vs 11-5) but also throughout HotS. It is really not THAT hard to understand.
Actually, I think the writers have too much of an emphasis on this months results as opposed to overall performance, but it will get better as the game gets older.
On August 09 2013 06:24 Rhaegal wrote: Do the people arguing for Maru actually believe he is better than Innovation, or are they just arguing for the sake of it?
Maru was 0-2'd by Zest and Losira.... guess that makes them better?
And Bomber beat Innovation... the point is, if these rankings don't predict, and they are based on the results from this month, and they are individual and not team rankings, that putting Innovation first is insane. He lost, badly.
Maru should be first, he just beat the #1 individually ranked player! And he has the recent results to back it up.
I suppose much of this comes down to how far off they weight the rankings from previous months. But to do that, and not predict is foolish, because with a ranking system like this you look in the past to predict the future.
Either make the results based on the performance of the month, or go back further and do some predicting.
There is a reason the vast majority of rankings, in any sport do the former.
On August 09 2013 06:24 Rhaegal wrote: Do the people arguing for Maru actually believe he is better than Innovation, or are they just arguing for the sake of it?
Maru was 0-2'd by Zest and Losira.... guess that makes them better?
And Bomber beat Innovation... the point is, if these rankings don't predict, and they are based on the results from this month, and they are individual and not team rankings, that putting Innovation first is insane. He lost, badly.
Maru should be first, he just beat the #1 individually ranked player! And he has the recent results to back it up.
I suppose much of this comes down to how far off they weight the rankings from previous months.
Innovation performed much better in July than Maru though...
On August 09 2013 06:24 Rhaegal wrote: Do the people arguing for Maru actually believe he is better than Innovation, or are they just arguing for the sake of it?
Maru was 0-2'd by Zest and Losira.... guess that makes them better?
And Bomber beat Innovation... the point is, if these rankings don't predict, and they are based on the results from this month, and they are individual and not team rankings, that putting Innovation first is insane.
Maru should be first, he just beat the #1 individually ranked player!
Well before we continue, I'm just gonna stop citing 17-4 because I can't confirm that at all, and unless TLPD is wrong or not completely updated, Innovation is 14-8.
And continuing, that is still a stronger number than Maru's only credibility for being in power rank which was a questionable, statistically unlikely sweep of the #1 player, and defeating symbol.
On August 09 2013 06:24 Rhaegal wrote: Do the people arguing for Maru actually believe he is better than Innovation, or are they just arguing for the sake of it?
Maru was 0-2'd by Zest and Losira.... guess that makes them better?
And Bomber beat Innovation... the point is, if these rankings don't predict, and they are based on the results from this month, and they are individual and not team rankings, that putting Innovation first is insane. He lost, badly.
Maru should be first, he just beat the #1 individually ranked player! And he has the recent results to back it up.
I suppose much of this comes down to how far off they weight the rankings from previous months.
Innovation performed much better in July than Maru though...
Which is why Maru is in the finals of the best individual league, and Innovation has been eliminated.
Remember, Maru just beat, no smashed, the consensus #1.
On August 09 2013 06:24 Rhaegal wrote: Do the people arguing for Maru actually believe he is better than Innovation, or are they just arguing for the sake of it?
Maru was 0-2'd by Zest and Losira.... guess that makes them better?
And Bomber beat Innovation... the point is, if these rankings don't predict, and they are based on the results from this month, and they are individual and not team rankings, that putting Innovation first is insane.
Maru should be first, he just beat the #1 individually ranked player!
Well before we continue, I'm just gonna stop citing 17-4 because I can't confirm that at all, and unless TLPD is wrong or not completely updated, Innovation is 14-8.
And continuing, that is still a stronger number than Maru's only credibility for being in power rank which was a questionable, statistically unlikely sweep of the #1 player, and defeating symbol.
On August 09 2013 06:24 Rhaegal wrote: Do the people arguing for Maru actually believe he is better than Innovation, or are they just arguing for the sake of it?
Maru was 0-2'd by Zest and Losira.... guess that makes them better?
And Bomber beat Innovation... the point is, if these rankings don't predict, and they are based on the results from this month, and they are individual and not team rankings, that putting Innovation first is insane.
Maru should be first, he just beat the #1 individually ranked player!
Well before we continue, I'm just gonna stop citing 17-4 because I can't confirm that at all, and unless TLPD is wrong or not completely updated, Innovation is 14-8.
And continuing, that is still a stronger number than Maru's only credibility for being in power rank which was a questionable, statistically unlikely sweep of the #1 player, and defeating symbol.
Thanks, gonna fix my post cause now Maru's stats are wrong, too. 29-12 vs 15-8, and 6-2 vs 17-4 in matches. There is no way you can put Maru over Innovation. Innovation has just won way more this month.
But those are performances from a team league... this is individual rankings. There is a big difference.
And again:
There is an individual league where the best players play, WCS KR. These are the statistics (of games won/lost, not matches won lost) from this month of that league:
Maru: 11-5 Innovation: 7-6
When I used to drag race my car (at the track), there was an old saying, "We don't race dyno sheets, we race cars." You might think the 900 HP Supra is going to beat the 700 HP Viper, but we actually race the cars to figure out who wins.
Now we play the game to find out who is better right, we don't just look at statistics, right?
This was the winner when they went head to head :
Maru 4-0 - Advances to the Final. Innovation 0-4 - Eliminated.
On August 09 2013 06:24 Rhaegal wrote: Do the people arguing for Maru actually believe he is better than Innovation, or are they just arguing for the sake of it?
Maru was 0-2'd by Zest and Losira.... guess that makes them better?
And Bomber beat Innovation... the point is, if these rankings don't predict, and they are based on the results from this month, and they are individual and not team rankings, that putting Innovation first is insane. He lost, badly.
Maru should be first, he just beat the #1 individually ranked player! And he has the recent results to back it up.
I suppose much of this comes down to how far off they weight the rankings from previous months.
Innovation performed much better in July than Maru though...
Which is why Maru is in the finals of the best individual league, and Innovation has been eliminated.
Remember, Maru just beat, no smashed, the consensus #1.
all this arguing is pointless, Maru is about to get his ass handed to him by Rain anyway.
Actually, it is 11-5 Maru to 7-6 Innovation in the OSL for games played. For matches, it is 4-1 Maru to 3-2 Innovation.
For overall games played including those outside the OSL, it is 11-5 (69%) Maru to 29-12 (71%) Innovation. For overall matches, it is 17-4 (81%) Innovation to 4-1 (80%) Maru.
The fact is, we don't see much of Maru. But that doesn't mean he isn't better. I'd argue too that Maru faced overall tougher matches when you look at his opponents too.
But he just swept Innovation, so we know who was better anyway.
On August 09 2013 06:39 Rhaegal wrote: You can't have it both ways. By your logic Zest and Losira are both better than Maru because they beat him.
It isn't like that at all. Maru lost some games to Losira, just like Innovation lost to Bomber, but they both still advanced. That is the key, they were good enough to advance, nothing else matters at that point. Then they both won their Ro8 matches.
Then Maru smashed Innovation. That is why he is better.
And so Maru is 11-5 in games, 4-1 in matches and Innovation is 7-6 in games, and 3-2 in matches.
On August 09 2013 06:43 BronzeKnee wrote: Actually, it is 11-5 Maru to 7-6 Innovation in the OSL for games played. For matches, it is 4-1 Maru to 3-2 Innovation.
For overall games played including those outside the OSL, it is 11-5 (69%) Maru to 29-12 (71%) Innovation. For overall matches, it is 17-4 (81%) Innovation to 4-1 (80%) Maru.
The fact is, we don't see much of Maru. But that doesn't mean he isn't better.
And he just swept Innovation.
You can take my word. He is not better. Is that enough or you will keep on posting BS? And again, Losira beat Maru. Is he better then Maru?
On August 09 2013 06:43 BronzeKnee wrote: Actually, it is 11-5 Maru to 7-6 Innovation in the OSL for games played. For matches, it is 4-1 Maru to 3-2 Innovation.
For overall games played including those outside the OSL, it is 11-5 (69%) Maru to 29-12 (71%) Innovation. For overall matches, it is 17-4 (81%) Innovation to 4-1 (80%) Maru.
The fact is, we don't see much of Maru. But that doesn't mean he isn't better.
And he just swept Innovation.
You can take my word. He is not better. Is that enough or you will keep on posting BS? And again, Losira beat Maru. Is he better then Maru?
You're mistaking a loss in the Ro4 to a loss in group play. My logic isn't inconsistent. Maru advanced, that is what matters, not that he lost an individual game or match here or there.
On August 09 2013 06:37 BronzeKnee wrote: But those are performances from a team league... this is individual rankings. There is a big difference.
And again:
There is an individual league where the best players play, WCS KR. These are the statistics (of games won/lost, not matches won lost) from this month of that league:
Maru: 11-5 Innovation: 7-6
When I used to drag race my car (at the track), there was an old saying, "We don't race dyno sheets, we race cars." You might think the 900 HP Supra is going to beat the 700 HP Viper, but we actually race the cars to figure out who wins.
Now we play the game to find out who is better right, we don't just look at statistics, right?
This was the winner when they went head to head :
Maru 4-0 - Advances to the Final. Innovation 0-4 - Eliminated.
So who was better?
But the power rank isn't just about individual leagues, it also includes team leagues. It's a combination of results in a month, not just how a player advances in an individual league. Maru's 11-5 is incorrect to compare to Innovation's 17-4 in matches btw, Maru is actually 6-2 in matches overall this month -- my mistake. I'd conceive that it's possible Maru could beat Rain and still not trump Innovation in ranking in August if Innovation continues on this tear.
Also, for like the fourth time, them fighting head to head doesn't mean everything. This barely has more of a basis to stand on than the unofficial world champion thread. Theres three match-ups. Maru beat Innovation in just one of them, and the magnitude of how hard Maru won is questionable.
On August 09 2013 06:47 rd wrote: and the magnitude of how hard Maru won is questionable.
And this why these rankings are a total and complete joke.
Because the writers think Innovation is amazing and thought his loss was a sham. They don't respect Maru, don't respect what he achieved (they couldn't even put him above Rain, and Rain defeats Bomber, yet Maru defeats the #1 in their power rank!).
And neither do you.
You and I know both know, that the writers and yourself, would not have questioned anything if Innovation won 4 straight against Maru in the same way Maru beat Innovation. You would have thought they Maru can't even stop basic cheeses, man he is terrible, what a joke. Heck, he would have never made the rankings!
And when you have that kind of bias, there is nothing else to discuss. You look at the dyno sheet, and you think "man this guy is gonna win this race, he is the best."
But we don't race dyno sheets, we race cars.
And the race is over, Maru won, even though his dyno sheet was less impressive. And the race wasn't even close.
Whether or not you want to accept his win, that is up to you.
"to no one's surprise, he's up at #1 again." INnoVation number one? Come on. He got knocked out of the quarterfinals in one of the most pitiful displays. It wasn't even close! And against a huge underdog, too. It was no upset, it was just showing that he could be targeted and prepared for like any other player. TvT isn't even Maru's best matchup. Clearly, INnoVation has some serious weaknesses. Maru straight up demolished him.
Also, INnoVation won a single game in the finals, and it wasn't even ace. By that standard you could say that Mini/Trap/Classic "led their team to victory"... come on. Power Rank, not Hype Rank, please.
On August 09 2013 06:47 rd wrote: and the magnitude of how hard Maru won is questionable.
And this why these rankings are a total and complete joke.
Because the writers think Innovation is amazing and thought his loss was a sham. They don't respect Maru, don't respect what he achieved.
And neither do you.
You and I know both know, that the writers and yourself, would not have questioned anything if Innovation won 4 straight against Maru in the same way Maru beat Innovation. You would have thought they Maru can't even stop basic cheeses, man he is terrible, what a joke. Heck, he would have never made the rankings!
And when you have that kind of bias, there is nothing else to discuss.
This is a joke.
The power rank is also marginally based on the players' past performances. On paper before the match, Innovation is much stronger than Maru. 4-0 is a monumental upset, and Maru has not yet proven nor has even been able to prove that result to be representative of any consistency in repeating such dominating wins. Do you understand? Maru lacks sufficient data to rank above Innovation.
If Innovation won four times in a row and was ranked #1 for it, it's PRECISELY because it's Innovation. It's because Innovation has a history of performances that would indicate such a 4-0 to be consistent with his level of play. It's not bias -- if anyone is biased here it's you. The statistics are also biased, most definitely biased towards Innovation because they're just flat out better this month despite dropping 4 straight maps.
I think jumping from non-existence to #4 in one month is a pretty accurate nod to Maru's 4-0 over innovation.
On August 09 2013 06:47 rd wrote: and the magnitude of how hard Maru won is questionable.
And this why these rankings are a total and complete joke.
Because the writers think Innovation is amazing and thought his loss was a sham. They don't respect Maru, don't respect what he achieved.
And neither do you.
You and I know both know, that the writers and yourself, would not have questioned anything if Innovation won 4 straight against Maru in the same way Maru beat Innovation. You would have thought they Maru can't even stop basic cheeses, man he is terrible, what a joke. Heck, he would have never made the rankings!
And when you have that kind of bias, there is nothing else to discuss.
This is a joke.
The power rank is also marginally based on the players' past performances. On paper before the match, Innovation is much stronger than Maru. 4-0 is a monumental upset, and Maru has not yet proven nor has even been able to prove that result to be representative of any consistency in repeating such dominating wins. Do you understand? Maru lacks sufficient data to rank above Innovation. If Innovation won four times in a row and was ranked #1 for it, it's not because it's Innovation. It's because Innovation has a history of performances that would indicate such a 4-0 to be consistent with his level of play. It's not bias -- if anyone is biased here it's you.
Tell that to all the writers who put Matt Serra #1 when he beat GSP (and I saw no ranking that had him anywhere by #1). Tell to any other sports community that ranks the way I am advocating. When the Patriots won the Superbowl in 2001, guess who was ranked #1?
Oh yeah the Patriots, not the heavily favored Rams, who had just recently won a Superbowl. The Rams weren't #1, because they didn't win!
Your logic is wrong. This is a power rank, that doesn't predict mind you.
On August 09 2013 06:47 rd wrote: and the magnitude of how hard Maru won is questionable.
And this why these rankings are a total and complete joke.
Because the writers think Innovation is amazing and thought his loss was a sham. They don't respect Maru, don't respect what he achieved.
And neither do you.
You and I know both know, that the writers and yourself, would not have questioned anything if Innovation won 4 straight against Maru in the same way Maru beat Innovation. You would have thought they Maru can't even stop basic cheeses, man he is terrible, what a joke. Heck, he would have never made the rankings!
And when you have that kind of bias, there is nothing else to discuss.
This is a joke.
The power rank is also marginally based on the players' past performances. On paper before the match, Innovation is much stronger than Maru. 4-0 is a monumental upset, and Maru has not yet proven nor has even been able to prove that result to be representative of any consistency in repeating such dominating wins. Do you understand? Maru lacks sufficient data to rank above Innovation. If Innovation won four times in a row and was ranked #1 for it, it's not because it's Innovation. It's because Innovation has a history of performances that would indicate such a 4-0 to be consistent with his level of play. It's not bias -- if anyone is biased here it's you.
Tell that to all the writers who put Matt Serra #1 when he beat GSP (and I saw no ranking that had him anywhere by #1). Tell to any other sports community.
Your logic is wrong. This is a power rank, that doesn't predict mind you.
That is entirely irrelevant. This isn't some other sports community, this is the power rank, and that is how it has always been. Keep the context within SC2.
On August 09 2013 06:47 rd wrote: and the magnitude of how hard Maru won is questionable.
And this why these rankings are a total and complete joke.
Because the writers think Innovation is amazing and thought his loss was a sham. They don't respect Maru, don't respect what he achieved.
And neither do you.
You and I know both know, that the writers and yourself, would not have questioned anything if Innovation won 4 straight against Maru in the same way Maru beat Innovation. You would have thought they Maru can't even stop basic cheeses, man he is terrible, what a joke. Heck, he would have never made the rankings!
And when you have that kind of bias, there is nothing else to discuss.
This is a joke.
The power rank is also marginally based on the players' past performances. On paper before the match, Innovation is much stronger than Maru. 4-0 is a monumental upset, and Maru has not yet proven nor has even been able to prove that result to be representative of any consistency in repeating such dominating wins. Do you understand? Maru lacks sufficient data to rank above Innovation. If Innovation won four times in a row and was ranked #1 for it, it's not because it's Innovation. It's because Innovation has a history of performances that would indicate such a 4-0 to be consistent with his level of play. It's not bias -- if anyone is biased here it's you.
Tell that to all the writers who put Matt Serra #1 when he beat GSP (and I saw no ranking that had him anywhere by #1). Tell to any other sports community.
Your logic is wrong. This is a power rank, that doesn't predict mind you.
That is entirely irrelevant. This isn't some other sports community, this is the power rank, and that is how it has always been. Keep the context within SC2.
The #1 team in any sports fails to remain the #1 team when they are eliminated. You understand this correct?
But let me pretend to be a SC2 outsider, and we are watching the OSL finals, with the #2 and #4 player in the world competing.
And then you tell me "hey look, there is Innovation, he is the #1 player in the world!"
And I say "how come he isn't playing?"
And you respond "well he lost to Maru, the #4, he got swept badly"
And I respond "well how can he still be the #1, when got swept by the #4?"
What is your response?
But before you respond, if it is filled with excuses about how Maru cheesed, save it, because that is bias. And what I plan to do is then replace Maru and Innovation with teams or individuals from other sports, and we'll see how silly your logic is.
To anyone that thinks Maru is better than Innovation, let's just take a hypothetical situation for Tennis:
Djokovic gets beaten by del Potro 6-1, 6-2, 6-1.
Is del Potro now the best tennis player in the world?
We're not on the world champion sc2 thread, we're actually trying to figure out who the best player in the world currently is. The best players should be able to take games off the others, it's not like if you're at the highest level you have an invulnerable shield around you to those below you; you're just favored. And honestly, who right now wouldn't favor Innovation against anybody?
On August 09 2013 06:54 0317`Strike- wrote: "to no one's surprise, he's up at #1 again." INnoVation number one? Come on. He got knocked out of the quarterfinals in one of the most pitiful displays. It wasn't even close! And against a huge underdog, too. It was no upset, it was just showing that he could be targeted and prepared for like any other player. TvT isn't even Maru's best matchup. Clearly, INnoVation has some serious weaknesses. Maru straight up demolished him.
Also, INnoVation won a single game in the finals, and it wasn't even ace. By that standard you could say that Mini/Trap/Classic "led their team to victory"... come on. Power Rank, not Hype Rank, please.
The only one hyping anything is you (in this case anti-hype). Innovation won 2 ace matches vs SKT. He was 6-1 in the playoffs. Of course he led his team to the championship.
In Code S he 2-0'd both Flash and Bbyong, and 3-0'd Soulkey. He qualified for IEM and hasn't lost a map yet in WCG. Other than one shit match, how can you not say he's not #1?
On August 09 2013 06:47 rd wrote: and the magnitude of how hard Maru won is questionable.
And this why these rankings are a total and complete joke.
Because the writers think Innovation is amazing and thought his loss was a sham. They don't respect Maru, don't respect what he achieved.
And neither do you.
You and I know both know, that the writers and yourself, would not have questioned anything if Innovation won 4 straight against Maru in the same way Maru beat Innovation. You would have thought they Maru can't even stop basic cheeses, man he is terrible, what a joke. Heck, he would have never made the rankings!
And when you have that kind of bias, there is nothing else to discuss.
This is a joke.
The power rank is also marginally based on the players' past performances. On paper before the match, Innovation is much stronger than Maru. 4-0 is a monumental upset, and Maru has not yet proven nor has even been able to prove that result to be representative of any consistency in repeating such dominating wins. Do you understand? Maru lacks sufficient data to rank above Innovation. If Innovation won four times in a row and was ranked #1 for it, it's not because it's Innovation. It's because Innovation has a history of performances that would indicate such a 4-0 to be consistent with his level of play. It's not bias -- if anyone is biased here it's you.
Tell that to all the writers who put Matt Serra #1 when he beat GSP (and I saw no ranking that had him anywhere by #1). Tell to any other sports community.
Your logic is wrong. This is a power rank, that doesn't predict mind you.
That is entirely irrelevant. This isn't some other sports community, this is the power rank, and that is how it has always been. Keep the context within SC2.
The #1 team in any sports fails to remain the #1 team when they are eliminated. You understand this correct?
But let me pretend to be a SC2 outsider, and we are watching the OSL finals, with the #2 and #4 player in the world competing.
And then you tell me "hey look, there is Innovation, he is the #1 player in the world!"
And I say "how come he isn't playing?"
And you respond "well he lost to Maru, the #4, he got swept badly"
And I respond "well how can he still be the #1, when got swept by the #4?"
What is your response?
But before you respond, if it is filled with excuses about how Maru cheesed, save it, because that is bias. And what I plan to do is then replace Maru and Innovation with teams or individuals from other sports, and we'll see how silly your logic is.
INoVation had far better results against more accomplished players in the last month than Maru. Their match factors in but it doesn't decide it all. To stay in your picture: Chelsea may have won last years Champions League over Barcelona and Bayern Munich, but no one in their right mind would have called them Europes best team because of it.
On August 09 2013 03:51 Arceus wrote: So SuperNova SCV-pulling his heart out and consistently aggressive allins net him the 6th spot. Theres one thing Im sure about this dude: once he falls out of the league, hes out for good.
Taeja's place is actually not surprising. We all know he would get a spot whenever he won another yet another euro tourney
To be fair, people said Supernova were out for good after he dropped out of the GSL just before getting his Nestea award, yet here he is again. If there is one thing you can never say in Starcraft, it's that someone is out for good. Look at July in BW or Mvp in WoL. These guys are good, even when they're not winning.
I don't understand why someppl hate scv pulls so much while late game protoss or immortal bust is a lot more disgusting.
This isnt what we used to call a power rank... This is a ranking by results when it used to be about level of play. I dont think anyone would favor Taeja or Hyun in a box vs flash or jangbi for example.
On August 09 2013 06:54 0317`Strike- wrote: "to no one's surprise, he's up at #1 again." INnoVation number one? Come on. He got knocked out of the quarterfinals in one of the most pitiful displays. It wasn't even close! And against a huge underdog, too. It was no upset, it was just showing that he could be targeted and prepared for like any other player. TvT isn't even Maru's best matchup. Clearly, INnoVation has some serious weaknesses. Maru straight up demolished him.
Also, INnoVation won a single game in the finals, and it wasn't even ace. By that standard you could say that Mini/Trap/Classic "led their team to victory"... come on. Power Rank, not Hype Rank, please.
The only one hyping anything is you (in this case anti-hype). Innovation won 2 ace matches vs SKT. He was 6-1 in the playoffs. Of course he led his team to the championship.
In Code S he 2-0'd both Flash and Bbyong, and 3-0'd Soulkey. He qualified for IEM and hasn't lost a map yet in WCG. Other than one shit match, how can you not say he's not #1?
Almost every one of the results you reference were accomplished before the JUNE power rank (Code S, the 2 ace matches vs. SKT, and every game except one in playoffs), when, like you say, INnoVation was clearly #1. Qualifying for IEM, rofl, any KeSPA player could've qualified. Life actually won the thing.
"Other than that one shit match"... which was by far the most important match he's played between these Power Ranks.
Thanks to the PR writers! It's very hard to tell relative strength of the players with such little cross-pollination (at least until the Season Finals).
Get yo practice on, Flash, so you can top the ranking soon!
On August 09 2013 07:34 Elroi wrote: This isnt what we used to call a power rank... This is a ranking by results when it used to be about level of play. I dont think anyone would favor Taeja or Hyun in a box vs flash or jangbi for example.
No it's always been about (less you're referring to BW rankings):
Results: Obviously, this will be the basis of any power rank. And since this is a monthly power rank, we'll be mainly focusing on results from the last month, that is the month of July. Previous HotS results will also be taken into account as well, but with less weight.
Difficulty of opponents: Let's put it this way: if the PR existed last year, we probably wouldn't have given PartinG the #1 spot for his BWC run.
Quality of play: How impressed were we with this player's performance, especially over the last month?
Summary, not a predictor: The PR is a rating based on previous results, not a scouting report for who will do well in the future. We can't believe this is not completely obvious.
Didn't see any complaints when there were more Kespa players in the last two because of SPL. Just this past OSL we have a lot of unexpected newer players that broke out in HotS because they have no consistent league to keep a good pulse on them.
On August 09 2013 07:34 Elroi wrote: This isnt what we used to call a power rank... This is a ranking by results when it used to be about level of play. I dont think anyone would favor Taeja or Hyun in a box vs flash or jangbi for example.
The power rank is based on both results and level of play. The old power rank was also very centric around results. I don't know why you'd imply it wasn't. Players were often dropped from the historical BW power rank for a lack of results.
On August 09 2013 06:37 BronzeKnee wrote: But those are performances from a team league... this is individual rankings. There is a big difference.
And again:
There is an individual league where the best players play, WCS KR. These are the statistics (of games won/lost, not matches won lost) from this month of that league:
Maru: 11-5 Innovation: 7-6
When I used to drag race my car (at the track), there was an old saying, "We don't race dyno sheets, we race cars." You might think the 900 HP Supra is going to beat the 700 HP Viper, but we actually race the cars to figure out who wins.
Now we play the game to find out who is better right, we don't just look at statistics, right?
This was the winner when they went head to head :
Maru 4-0 - Advances to the Final. Innovation 0-4 - Eliminated.
So who was better?
It's individual results, and that includes the results of an individual in a team league.
Also as far as your Innovation beat Maru, he's better argument: Haypro beat Nestea and barely lost to MVP once at an MLG. According to your formula since we're apparently taking nothing into account other than head to head it goes 1. MVP 2. Haypro 3. Nestea
On August 09 2013 06:24 Rhaegal wrote: Do the people arguing for Maru actually believe he is better than Innovation, or are they just arguing for the sake of it?
Maru was 0-2'd by Zest and Losira.... guess that makes them better?
And Bomber beat Innovation... the point is, if these rankings don't predict, and they are based on the results from this month, and they are individual and not team rankings, that putting Innovation first is insane. He lost, badly.
Maru should be first, he just beat the #1 individually ranked player! And he has the recent results to back it up.
I suppose much of this comes down to how far off they weight the rankings from previous months. But to do that, and not predict is foolish, because with a ranking system like this you look in the past to predict the future.
Either make the results based on the performance of the month, or go back further and do some predicting.
There is a reason the vast majority of rankings, in any sport do the former.
Basically, you're saying against similar levels of competition, a 29-8 should be weighted less than an 11-8 purely because of one 4-0 that would bring the records to 29-12 vs 15-8? I think many of us disagree with that value judgment. Not much else to say.
Regarding head to head: Losira beat Maru. So he should be here! What a terrible ranking. Unofficial world champion so much more legit!
But seriously: no way Innovation isn't at the top. Yes Maru swept him, and yes I actually think Maru could do it again. But I still can't see Maru as conclusively better across the board.
The 4-0 means a lot. But it doesn't negate all of innovations other wins as some people seem to think.
Overall: I'm pretty happy with these rankings. Of course it's the power rank though, so fanboys and haters gonna hate it.
On August 09 2013 07:34 Elroi wrote: This isnt what we used to call a power rank... This is a ranking by results when it used to be about level of play. I dont think anyone would favor Taeja or Hyun in a box vs flash or jangbi for example.
If people were able to base their predictions on recent results and not on their fanboyism, I'm pretty sure most of TL would favor HyuN or TaeJa in a BoX against Flash or JangBi. And yes, a power rank can only rank level of play on the most recent results because they represent the current skill of the player as of late.
On August 09 2013 07:34 Elroi wrote: This isnt what we used to call a power rank... This is a ranking by results when it used to be about level of play. I dont think anyone would favor Taeja or Hyun in a box vs flash or jangbi for example.
If people were able to base their predictions on recent results and not on their fanboyism, I'm pretty sure most of TL would favor HyuN or TaeJa in a BoX against Flash or JangBi. And yes, a power rank can only rank level of play on the most recent results because they represent the current skill of the player as of late.
Sure, assuming they`re playing in the same tourneys. Flash and jangbi are code S while the other two are farming wins vs foreigners and koreans who ran from the real competition. Hyun loses in AM challenger league and you really think he`d be favoured vs flash/jangbi in a BoX? Taeja at #6 is a joke considering the caliber of opposition.
Good Power Rank!! Slightly disagree with TaeJa at #6. He is definitely good and has come a long way since his injuries but being that high up when players like sOs, Flash, Life, and JangBi are lower... well, it doesn't make much sense except TL bias!
On August 09 2013 00:40 Sevre wrote: Pretty good Power Rank, I only disagree with INnoVation being 1st again. Yes he's awesome, but I feel like you give him too much credit for winning Proleague when he hasn't lived up to expectations this month, and in the Bomber piece you concede that he's overrated? Just feels a bit weird. Other than that though spot on.
umm so he loses to maru then he's not livin up to his expectations?
On August 09 2013 06:24 Rhaegal wrote: Do the people arguing for Maru actually believe he is better than Innovation, or are they just arguing for the sake of it?
Maru was 0-2'd by Zest and Losira.... guess that makes them better?
And Bomber beat Innovation... the point is, if these rankings don't predict, and they are based on the results from this month, and they are individual and not team rankings, that putting Innovation first is insane. He lost, badly.
Maru should be first, he just beat the #1 individually ranked player! And he has the recent results to back it up.
I suppose much of this comes down to how far off they weight the rankings from previous months. But to do that, and not predict is foolish, because with a ranking system like this you look in the past to predict the future.
Either make the results based on the performance of the month, or go back further and do some predicting.
There is a reason the vast majority of rankings, in any sport do the former.
Basically, you're saying against similar levels of competition, a 29-8 should be weighted less than an 11-8 purely because of one 4-0 that would bring the records to 29-12 vs 15-8? I think many of us disagree with that value judgment. Not much else to say.
Take another look here at the stats: Maru is 6-2 (75%) in matches 15-8 (65%) in games. Innovation is 17-4 (80%) in matches and 29-12 (70%) in games.
So we have Innovation 5% better in both categories. But did they play a similar level of competition?
Let's find out!
This is average Aligulac rating of Maru's opponents from July: 1603
This is average Aligulac rating of Innovation's opponents from July: 1429
So the answer is no. The closest people to a rating of 1603 are Nerchio and Genius (1602 apiece). The closest people to a rating of 1429 is SaSe, Goswser and MacSed (1430 for Sase and 1431 for the others).
Innovation padded his record with wins against low level Kespa players. That is very clear.
So statistically Maru has played better opponents, but Innovation has a better record. And that is completely ignoring the fact Maru swept Innovation in a best of 7.
But here is what you really should be asking, this isn't the regular season anymore, this is the playoffs, the semi finals, a loss eliminates you. If the #4 seed goes up against the #1, really in anything, and the #4 prevails, how dare you rank the #1 ahead of them after the #4 prevails?
That is the slap in the face of the #4. Of course their better, they just won! And it isn't like this is the start of 32 man tournament, where if the #16 upsets the #1, it says more about the #1 being bad than the #16 being good, this is the final four, they are all good.
That is how every other power rank works. Again, when the Patriots defeated the Rams in 2001, they were #1 in every football power rank, even though the Rams were heavily favored and had a recent Superbowl victory. The NCCA does the same with basketball. The #1 ceases to be the #1 when they lose in the final 4.
But I can just see all the Innovation lovers and the TL writers running up to Maru after the match saying "Wow, you're so good, you just beat Innovation, you're #4 in our Power Rank!" then quickly running over to Innovation saying "Oh man, nice try, but you're still #1 in our Power Rank, don't worry, you're still the best! We know you won't drop a map to Combatex in WCG!"
the power rank doesn't provide the stability in rankings yet, that the BW power rank had. This is not the authors fault, as they try to pick the exact best 10 people for the powerrank and give a lot of thought to it, but it is "inside the game"
Im afraid sc2 is to volatile to have a good PR in the near future. Perhaps it will slow down in a while, that remains to be seen.
On August 09 2013 08:49 Cele wrote: the power rank doesn't provide the stability in rankings yet, that the BW power rank had. This is not the authors fault, as they try to pick the exact best 10 people for the powerrank and give a lot of thought to it, but it is "inside the game"
Im afraid sc2 is to volatile to have a good PR in the near future. Perhaps it will slow down in a while, that remains to be seen.
well, they put a lot of focus on Proleague in the last 2PRs. This PR there was hardly any Proleague to consider and now suddenly all the Kespa players "fall off" and the eSF guys "rise". The thing is, it's not like Maru and Bomber and Hyun "just recently" becaome good. They were simply underrated because of the overwhealming amount of games played in Proleague.
The problem is not the game, the problem is that we have a thousand different leagues/tournaments that take place all the time and the PR depends on who played where, which just means that it will hugely favor players that play a lot, over player that don't play as much because their tournaments/leagues just ended. It's not the skill that is fluctuating.
Due to the way the Aligulac system works, a lot of Kespa players are currently underrated. They need to play enough games with eSF players for points to start transferring. Their default points are extremely low. It's the same reason why Lucifron is rated higher than Jangbi.
Besides these Kespa 'no-namers' are already beginning to break into Code A and Code S (pigbaby anyone?).
On August 09 2013 08:58 PerSe wrote: Due to the way the Aligulac system works, a lot of Kespa players are currently underrated. They need to play enough games with eSF players for points to start transferring. Their default points are extremely low. It's the same reason why Lucifron is rated higher than Jangbi.
Besides these Kespa 'no-namers' are already beginning to break into Code A and Code S (pigbaby anyone?).
I know, we really shouldn't weigh statistics and matchups too heavily, but we should be looking at head to head results. And Maru 4-0ed Innovation.
That's all we needed to know. Remember, "We don't race dynosheets, we race cars."
On August 09 2013 08:58 PerSe wrote: Due to the way the Aligulac system works, a lot of Kespa players are currently underrated. They need to play enough games with eSF players for points to start transferring. Their default points are extremely low. It's the same reason why Lucifron is rated higher than Jangbi.
Besides these Kespa 'no-namers' are already beginning to break into Code A and Code S (pigbaby anyone?).
I know, we really shouldn't weigh statistics and matchups too heavily, but we should be looking at head to head results. And Maru 4-0ed Innovation.
That's all we needed to know. Remember, "We don't race dynosheets, we race cars."
So my Haypro>Nestea argument is true? Cool I always knew he was the one true WoL Banjo.
i agree with everything on the list .. but i dont believe that flash should be out of the top 10 .. and also that hyun is in it .. i dont think hyun is better than flash and since flash faces the hardest competitors and losing to them doesnt mean he is weak ... though nice write up !
edit: I strongly disagree with Flash being "close but no cigar". He should be in the "Special Mentions"-section. Plus, that punch on Life wasn't necessary at all.
On August 09 2013 09:44 boxerfred wrote: sOs still in? I agree with the rest, though.
How can you question the position of sOs? I think it's already unnecessarily harsh to drop him 5 places when he only lost 2 maps in the month of July (2-1 Flash in AIMAG and 2-1 Ruin in Code A). He returned to Code S pretty easily and won his game in Proleague.
TLPD was incomplete or I didn't look closely enough; he barely missed the Ro16 of qualifiers for WCG Korea by losing to Rain.
On August 09 2013 07:34 Elroi wrote: This isnt what we used to call a power rank... This is a ranking by results when it used to be about level of play. I dont think anyone would favor Taeja or Hyun in a box vs flash or jangbi for example.
If people were able to base their predictions on recent results and not on their fanboyism, I'm pretty sure most of TL would favor HyuN or TaeJa in a BoX against Flash or JangBi. And yes, a power rank can only rank level of play on the most recent results because they represent the current skill of the player as of late.
But most of TL also thinks Nestea is still good and MVP would have a shot in WCS KR ^^
On August 09 2013 07:34 Elroi wrote: This isnt what we used to call a power rank... This is a ranking by results when it used to be about level of play. I dont think anyone would favor Taeja or Hyun in a box vs flash or jangbi for example.
If people were able to base their predictions on recent results and not on their fanboyism, I'm pretty sure most of TL would favor HyuN or TaeJa in a BoX against Flash or JangBi. And yes, a power rank can only rank level of play on the most recent results because they represent the current skill of the player as of late.
But most of TL also thinks Nestea is still good and MVP would have a shot in WCS KR ^^
Mvp would in Season 1 obviously. Would have made Ro8 at least.
On August 09 2013 07:34 Elroi wrote: This isnt what we used to call a power rank... This is a ranking by results when it used to be about level of play. I dont think anyone would favor Taeja or Hyun in a box vs flash or jangbi for example.
On August 09 2013 07:34 Elroi wrote: This isnt what we used to call a power rank... This is a ranking by results when it used to be about level of play. I dont think anyone would favor Taeja or Hyun in a box vs flash or jangbi for example.
If people were able to base their predictions on recent results and not on their fanboyism, I'm pretty sure most of TL would favor HyuN or TaeJa in a BoX against Flash or JangBi. And yes, a power rank can only rank level of play on the most recent results because they represent the current skill of the player as of late.
Results in relatively weak tournaments. Taeja couldnt get more than a 50% win rate in proleague.
I don't get how revival gets a close but no cigar and jaedong doesn't even get mentioned when he's been doing better then revival other then not winning IEM :p. I would still put jaedong over revival by a pretty good amount.
On August 09 2013 04:49 Fionn wrote: I feel like Polt should have been in there if Hyun is in the top ten and his only real loss in a tournament was 3-2 to Revival, the guy who won the tournament, but seeing as he hasn't played Ro16 of WCS AM yet, I guess I can see. I would rank him above Hyun, though. Especially since Hyun bombed the fuck out of AM.
On August 09 2013 04:49 Fionn wrote: I feel like Polt should have been in there if Hyun is in the top ten and his only real loss in a tournament was 3-2 to Revival, the guy who won the tournament, but seeing as he hasn't played Ro16 of WCS AM yet, I guess I can see. I would rank him above Hyun, though. Especially since Hyun bombed the fuck out of AM.
On August 09 2013 06:43 BronzeKnee wrote: Actually, it is 11-5 Maru to 7-6 Innovation in the OSL for games played. For matches, it is 4-1 Maru to 3-2 Innovation.
For overall games played including those outside the OSL, it is 11-5 (69%) Maru to 29-12 (71%) Innovation. For overall matches, it is 17-4 (81%) Innovation to 4-1 (80%) Maru.
The fact is, we don't see much of Maru. But that doesn't mean he isn't better.
And he just swept Innovation.
You can take my word. He is not better. Is that enough or you will keep on posting BS? And again, Losira beat Maru. Is he better then Maru?
You're mistaking a loss in the Ro4 to a loss in group play. My logic isn't inconsistent. Maru advanced, that is what matters, not that he lost an individual game or match here or there.
Your only claim for Innovation not being #1 is that he lost a series 0-4 to Maru.
On August 09 2013 06:54 0317`Strike- wrote: "to no one's surprise, he's up at #1 again." INnoVation number one? Come on. He got knocked out of the quarterfinals in one of the most pitiful displays. It wasn't even close! And against a huge underdog, too. It was no upset, it was just showing that he could be targeted and prepared for like any other player. TvT isn't even Maru's best matchup. Clearly, INnoVation has some serious weaknesses. Maru straight up demolished him.
Also, INnoVation won a single game in the finals, and it wasn't even ace. By that standard you could say that Mini/Trap/Classic "led their team to victory"... come on. Power Rank, not Hype Rank, please.
You need to take into account time for preparation – Maru only needs to prepare for the OSL while Innovation needs to prepare for both proleague and OSL, and he’s of course going to put more emphasis on proleague since STX has never won one and he gets another chance for individual league in WCS finals.
You just can’t disregard proleague. Maru had more time and an easier time to prepare. Sure, innovation only won 1 game in the proleague grand finals against Soulkey, but he had to practice for that match against Soulkey, AND also practice for the final ace match on the last map – POTENTIALLY a TvZ against Soulkey OR a TvP against SoS, and he cannot disregard a possible sniper TvTer.
In conclusion, all of you who disregard Innovation’s #1 PR spot are completely stupid.
And of course, PR has never been 100% about statistics and results. It's about who people think are favored to win against anyone else in a BoX. That's why in the BW PR Flash could have gone 7-7 and 0-2 in ace matches in grand finals or something similar and still maintain #1.
On August 09 2013 10:54 saltywet wrote: Your only claim for Innovation not being #1 is that he lost a series 0-4 to Maru.
You Innovation lovers are ridiculous. Seriously the bias is literally making me disgusted.
My claim for isn't for Innovation not being #1 because he lost a series 0-4 to Maru.
My claim is for Maru being #1 because he smashed Innovation who was the #1.
When you beat the best, you become the best. Look up the definition of the word "best".
Doesn't that make sense? This isn't about how everyone stacks up to our God Innovation who must play absolutely terribly and lose everything or he keeps the #1... it is about how each StarCraft 2 player plays in relation to each other. When you present it as "this is why Maru deserves it" rather than "this is why Innovation doesn't deserve it" the argument becomes much stronger. Because you've removed the bias. Without the bias you realize that wins in Proleague and a WCG qualifier pale in comparison to someone dominating the consensus #1 4-0 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world. Maru deserves the recognition, denying it is a slap in his face. Plenty of people did well in Proleague and the WCG qualifier in July, but only one swept the consensus #1 in a best of seven series 4-0.
And it isn't like the rest of Maru's month was terrible, he played extremely well in WCS. Take another look here at the July stats: Maru is 6-2 (75%) in matches 15-8 (65%) in games. Innovation is 17-4 (80%) in matches and 29-12 (70%) in games.
This is average Aligulac rating of Maru's opponents from July: 1603
This is average Aligulac rating of Innovation's opponents from July: 1429
So Innovation has the higher winrate, but it is against lesser opponents. But the main thing is that Maru proved to be the better player than Innovation in July, by sweeping the consensus #1 in a best of 7 series. Sweeping! It wasn't even close, no game was close!
You can't be #1 when you drop a best of seven 0-4 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world to someone you're supposed to beat. This doesn't mean that Innovation is bad, it doesn't mean he can't retake #1, but it means in July, he wasn't the best.
Also as far as your Innovation beat Maru, he's better argument: Haypro beat Nestea and barely lost to MVP once at an MLG. According to your formula since we're apparently taking nothing into account other than head to head it goes 1. MVP 2. Haypro 3. Nestea
Would that be what you took away from that MLG?
If you were judging the performance of players by only that MLG, then what you said is correct of course. How else can you view it? If someone unfamiliar with E-Sports looked only at the results from that MLG they would rank Haypro higher than Nestea. And that should be obvious. However, MLG is more difficult to gauge because it is a single day tournament and you don't have time to specifically prepare for each opponent. For this reason I believe it doesn't require as much SC2 skill, and you rely more on endurance. Finally, those were best of 3, not best of 7, and Haypro didn't sweep Nestea.
This Power Rank judges the performance of this month, with some weight given to past performances. Based on the past Innovation should have dominated this month. He did not. He was soundly beaten 4-0. Thus he no longer deserves the #1 spot.
That doesn't mean he can't get it back, or that he is bad. It means that when it mattered in July, Maru was better. And the results show that.
The Teamliquid writing staff seems to have an obnoxious obsession with Taeja's performance almost a year ago. It seems like every time they write about Taeja they have to bring up the fact that, yes, at one point a Liquid player was really good.
On August 09 2013 10:54 saltywet wrote: Your only claim for Innovation not being #1 is that he lost a series 0-4 to Maru.
You Innovation lovers are ridiculous. Seriously the bias is literally making me disgusted.
My claim for isn't for Innovation not being #1 because he lost a series 0-4 to Maru.
My claim is for Maru being #1 because he smashed Innovation who was the #1.
When you beat the best, you become the best. Look up the definition of the word "best".
Doesn't that make sense? This isn't about how everyone stacks up to our God Innovation who must play absolutely terribly and lose everything or he keeps the #1... it is about how each StarCraft 2 player plays in relation to each other. When you present it as "this is why Maru deserves it" rather than "this is why Innovation doesn't deserve it" the argument becomes much stronger. Because you've removed the bias. Without the bias you realize that wins in Proleague and a WCG qualifier pale in comparison to someone dominating the consensus #1 4-0 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world. Maru deserves the recognition, denying it is a slap in his face. Plenty of people did well in Proleague and the WCG qualifier in July, but only one swept the consensus #1 in a best of seven series 4-0.
And it isn't like the rest of Maru's month was terrible, he played extremely well in WCS. Take another look here at the July stats: Maru is 6-2 (75%) in matches 15-8 (65%) in games. Innovation is 17-4 (80%) in matches and 29-12 (70%) in games.
This is average Aligulac rating of Maru's opponents from July: 1603
This is average Aligulac rating of Innovation's opponents from July: 1429
So Innovation has the higher winrate, but it is against lesser opponents. But the main thing is that Maru proved to be the better player than Innovation in July, by sweeping the consensus #1 in a best of 7 series. Sweeping! It wasn't even close, no game was close!
You can't be #1 when you drop a best of seven 0-4 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world to someone you're supposed to beat. This doesn't mean that Innovation is bad, it doesn't mean he can't retake #1, but it means in July, he wasn't the best.
Also as far as your Innovation beat Maru, he's better argument: Haypro beat Nestea and barely lost to MVP once at an MLG. According to your formula since we're apparently taking nothing into account other than head to head it goes 1. MVP 2. Haypro 3. Nestea
Would that be what you took away from that MLG?
If you were judging the performance of players by only that MLG, then what you said is correct of course. How else can you view it? If someone unfamiliar with E-Sports looked only at the results from that MLG they would rank Haypro higher than Nestea. And that should be obvious. However, MLG is more difficult to gauge because it is a single day tournament and you don't have time to specifically prepare for each opponent. For this reason I believe it doesn't require as much SC2 skill, and you rely more on endurance. Finally, those were best of 3, not best of 7, and Haypro didn't sweep Nestea.
This Power Rank judges the performance of this month, with some weight given to past performances. Based on the past Innovation should have dominated this month. He did not. He was soundly beaten 4-0. Thus he no longer deserves the #1 spot.
That doesn't mean he can't get it back, or that he is bad. It means that when it mattered in July, Maru was better. And the results show that.
You have Maru bias. Innovation didn't have as much time as Maru to prepare for WCS OSL, he had to prepare for TvZ and TvP matchups on different maps. You are unfamiliar with E-Sports because you don't know the intensity of proleague.
Based on results, Innovation got a 3rd/4th place finish in OSL, while Maru is only a finalist (and not yet a winner), which is only one step ahead of innovation. If Maru won the OSL, he might* have a claim for #1, but too bad the PR for this month comes out just a day before the finals, eh? Next month, without proleague to prepare for and the WCS grand finals coming up, we will see how Innovation, Rain and Maru really does.
I don't understand bomber's description tbh. Taking down "overrated" players First, Innovation and Flash (innovation is #1 on your ranking, First is top 10 and had an awesome season overall, flash a worthy mention) before losing as expected to a more solid Rain (who is ranked lower than innovation).
You Innovation lovers are ridiculous. Seriously the bias is literally making me disgusted.
My claim for isn't for Innovation not being #1 because he lost a series 0-4 to Maru.
My claim is for Maru being #1 because he smashed Innovation who was the #1.
When you beat the best, you become the best. Look up the definition of the word "best".
Doesn't that make sense? This isn't about how everyone stacks up to our God Innovation who must play absolutely terribly and lose everything or he keeps the #1... it is about how each StarCraft 2 player plays in relation to each other. When you present it as "this is why Maru deserves it" rather than "this is why Innovation doesn't deserve it" the argument becomes much stronger. Because you've removed the bias. Without the bias you realize that wins in Proleague and a WCG qualifier pale in comparison to someone dominating the consensus #1 4-0 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world. Maru deserves the recognition, denying it is a slap in his face. Plenty of people did well in Proleague and the WCG qualifier in July, but only one swept the consensus #1 in a best of seven series 4-0.
And it isn't like the rest of Maru's month was terrible, he played extremely well in WCS. Take another look here at the July stats: Maru is 6-2 (75%) in matches 15-8 (65%) in games. Innovation is 17-4 (80%) in matches and 29-12 (70%) in games.
This is average Aligulac rating of Maru's opponents from July: 1603
This is average Aligulac rating of Innovation's opponents from July: 1429
So Innovation has the higher winrate, but it is against lesser opponents. But the main thing is that Maru proved to be the better player than Innovation in July, by sweeping the consensus #1 in a best of 7 series. Sweeping! It wasn't even close, no game was close!
You can't be #1 when you drop a best of seven 0-4 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world to someone you're supposed to beat. This doesn't mean that Innovation is bad, it doesn't mean he can't retake #1, but it means in July, he wasn't the best.
Because Maru was
.
Have you not realized that PR is never about the logic of A > B so A ranked higher than B? Because it's retarded. Losira must have been #1 cuz he 2-0'd Maru. Hows about that?
Funny you talks about opponents' quality: Maru: soO, sOs, EffOrt, SN, Trap, Losira, Symbol. Bogus: Bbyong, Savage, Flying, Bomber, Flash, SoulKey, [insert SPL players] Maru cheesed the shit out of sOs, Trap & later on Bogus, played a hilariously terrible ZvTer (srsly EffOrt should stop the hydraroach bs), played a lulz series with SN, drawing an similarly allinish Symbol. Now you tell me about opponents' quality.
The question to ask yourself is: what can one player achieve long-term with his play? Thats what PR is about. Maru with 80% of his game being shenanigans because he couldnt play straight-up? Top 4 for 3 consecutive cheeses is good enough for him. Everybody in the LR thread is like, lol this kid! lol cheesee loooool. Now you tell me thats the reaction for a top1 player? Oh and stop your kindergarten "A beat B so A > B" logic please
Yes, he lost 0-4 to Maru. But besides that hiccup, Innovation probably had one of the most dominant months we've ever seen from a single player since the TaeJa of Summer '12. He led his team to a Proleague championship and 4-0'd his Zerg rival, Soulkey, considered by most to be Korea's best Zerg at the moment.
But did you also know that Innovation qualified for IEM Shanghai (which he declined so he could go win Proleague instead) and also advanced to the Ro8 in the WCG KR qualifiers?
Not only does Innovation TvZ continue to look mostly unstoppable,he actually has not lost an offline macro TvP in fourth months. Going into the WCS Season 2 Finals, Innovation will be the strong favorite, and he'll have a chance to avenge himself against Maru and Bomber to prove that you only get lucky once.
I am going to call bullshit on this sentence because he lost to Best in a proleague match on Neo Planet S in July 17th (which I presume is considered an offline match).
On August 09 2013 12:31 Race is Terran wrote: Yes, he lost 0-4 to Maru. But besides that hiccup, Innovation probably had one of the most dominant months we've ever seen from a single player since the TaeJa of Summer '12. He led his team to a Proleague championship and 4-0'd his Zerg rival, Soulkey, considered by most to be Korea's best Zerg at the moment.
But did you also know that Innovation qualified for IEM Shanghai (which he declined so he could go win Proleague instead) and also advanced to the Ro8 in the WCG KR qualifiers?
Not only does Innovation TvZ continue to look mostly unstoppable,he actually has not lost an offline macro TvP in fourth months. Going into the WCS Season 2 Finals, Innovation will be the strong favorite, and he'll have a chance to avenge himself against Maru and Bomber to prove that you only get lucky once.
I am going to call bullshit on this sentence because he lost to Best in a proleague match on Neo Planet S in July 17th (which I presume is considered an offline match).
And lol wtf that game with Rain vs hyvaa in their first meeting in tie-breakers... I heard about it on the live report thread but watching it now... WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Did he fall asleep?
i feel that most of this power rank is dumb soulkey is higher then maru?!?!?!?! also innovation was knocked out by maru and has not won any tournaments recently I think this power rank is kinda bad, whoever has done this is kinda bad just sayin. I feel this is just who he likes not who he is actually performing well in the month of august.
Also as far as your Innovation beat Maru, he's better argument: Haypro beat Nestea and barely lost to MVP once at an MLG. According to your formula since we're apparently taking nothing into account other than head to head it goes 1. MVP 2. Haypro 3. Nestea
Would that be what you took away from that MLG?
If you were judging the performance of players by only that MLG, then what you said is correct of course. How else can you view it? If someone unfamiliar with E-Sports looked only at the results from that MLG they would rank Haypro higher than Nestea. And that should be obvious. However, MLG is more difficult to gauge because it is a single day tournament and you don't have time to specifically prepare for each opponent. For this reason I believe it doesn't require as much SC2 skill, and you rely more on endurance. Finally, those were best of 3, not best of 7, and Haypro didn't sweep Nestea.
This Power Rank judges the performance of this month, with some weight given to past performances. Based on the past Innovation should have dominated this month. He did not. He was soundly beaten 4-0. Thus he no longer deserves the #1 spot.
That doesn't mean he can't get it back, or that he is bad. It means that when it mattered in July, Maru was better. And the results show that.
Wow, you've really started a war. Whilst I understand your point, I find it difficult to accept, just like most people here.
Before you should go on further, why not you come up with your own PR?
This is not a diversionary challenge. The point here is that PR is not about A vs B, or in this case, Maru v Inno. It's about A v B v C v D.... basically all the top pros in SC2. But let's make it simple and limit it to the current Top 10 this month, shall we?
You are saying that Maru > Inno. That is true. The rest are saying that Inno > 8 players in the Top 10, whilst Maru probably only > 5. And they say this not because everyone in the Top 10 has played before, but based on previous meetings in previous months and their observation on everyone's play. Whilst this is not really objective, it is the best data they can rely on, without hypothesising in vacuum.
So yes, Maru beat Inno. But most evidence point to the fact that Inno will likely beat the shit outta the rest of the Top 10, whilst Maru might struggle against half of them them, even based on this month's form. Inno has won against SK and Rain not once but more than once in the same month, though losing against Bomber (in arguably a dead rubber). Maru has yet to play against 3 of them. How can we say that Maru is better than SK, Rain and Bomber as well? Just because he beat Inno once?
Seriously, this ain't about Maru v Inno. Once you try to pit EVERYONE against EVERYONE, you will understand how difficult it is to come up with a PR rank. And what's very clear is that your "A beats B so A is better than B" formula will go nowhere in coming up with a definitive PR (Inno > Rain > Bomber > Inno: figure that one out).
You Innovation lovers are ridiculous. Seriously the bias is literally making me disgusted.
My claim for isn't for Innovation not being #1 because he lost a series 0-4 to Maru.
My claim is for Maru being #1 because he smashed Innovation who was the #1.
When you beat the best, you become the best. Look up the definition of the word "best".
Doesn't that make sense? This isn't about how everyone stacks up to our God Innovation who must play absolutely terribly and lose everything or he keeps the #1... it is about how each StarCraft 2 player plays in relation to each other. When you present it as "this is why Maru deserves it" rather than "this is why Innovation doesn't deserve it" the argument becomes much stronger. Because you've removed the bias. Without the bias you realize that wins in Proleague and a WCG qualifier pale in comparison to someone dominating the consensus #1 4-0 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world. Maru deserves the recognition, denying it is a slap in his face. Plenty of people did well in Proleague and the WCG qualifier in July, but only one swept the consensus #1 in a best of seven series 4-0.
And it isn't like the rest of Maru's month was terrible, he played extremely well in WCS. Take another look here at the July stats: Maru is 6-2 (75%) in matches 15-8 (65%) in games. Innovation is 17-4 (80%) in matches and 29-12 (70%) in games.
This is average Aligulac rating of Maru's opponents from July: 1603
This is average Aligulac rating of Innovation's opponents from July: 1429
So Innovation has the higher winrate, but it is against lesser opponents. But the main thing is that Maru proved to be the better player than Innovation in July, by sweeping the consensus #1 in a best of 7 series. Sweeping! It wasn't even close, no game was close!
You can't be #1 when you drop a best of seven 0-4 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world to someone you're supposed to beat. This doesn't mean that Innovation is bad, it doesn't mean he can't retake #1, but it means in July, he wasn't the best.
Because Maru was
.
Have you not realized that PR is never about the logic of A > B so A ranked higher than B? Because it's retarded. Losira must have been #1 cuz he 2-0'd Maru. Hows about that?
Funny you talks about opponents' quality: Maru: soO, sOs, EffOrt, SN, Trap, Losira, Symbol. Bogus: Bbyong, Savage, Flying, Bomber, Flash, SoulKey, [insert SPL players] Maru cheesed the shit out of sOs, Trap & later on Bogus, played a hilariously terrible ZvTer (srsly EffOrt should stop the hydraroach bs), played a lulz series with SN, drawing an similarly allinish Symbol. Now you tell me about opponents' quality.
The question to ask yourself is: what can one player achieve long-term with his play? Thats what PR is about. Maru with 80% of his game being shenanigans because he couldnt play straight-up? Top 4 for 3 consecutive cheeses is good enough for him. Everybody in the LR thread is like, lol this kid! lol cheesee loooool. Now you tell me thats the reaction for a top1 player? Oh and stop your kindergarten "A beat B so A > B" logic please
"Lol Maru cheese lol" is everybody reaction toward Maru? Sounds like butthurt Kespa fanboys mostly. Maru played the player and won. If anybody can play like that and beat Innovation, they would've done it. And Maru topped the KR ladder recently so don't even try to imply that he is just some cheesy noob, you're making yourself look bad. And what is so impressive about Bbyoung, Savage, Flying and Flash ? Are they better than Maru's opponents by definition? Innovation also lost to Bomber. Beating SK is impressive but SK also lost to SN, a player you seem to have a very low opinion on. So no, opponents quality of Maru is probably better, considering Innovation is among them.
Will we ever see a foreigner in PR? Based on WCS EU, seems possible! Though it would be also great if MMA or MC takes it and enters PR! esF dragons fighting!
On August 09 2013 06:54 0317`Strike- wrote: "to no one's surprise, he's up at #1 again." INnoVation number one? Come on. He got knocked out of the quarterfinals in one of the most pitiful displays. It wasn't even close! And against a huge underdog, too. It was no upset, it was just showing that he could be targeted and prepared for like any other player. TvT isn't even Maru's best matchup. Clearly, INnoVation has some serious weaknesses. Maru straight up demolished him.
Also, INnoVation won a single game in the finals, and it wasn't even ace. By that standard you could say that Mini/Trap/Classic "led their team to victory"... come on. Power Rank, not Hype Rank, please.
The only one hyping anything is you (in this case anti-hype). Innovation won 2 ace matches vs SKT. He was 6-1 in the playoffs. Of course he led his team to the championship.
In Code S he 2-0'd both Flash and Bbyong, and 3-0'd Soulkey. He qualified for IEM and hasn't lost a map yet in WCG. Other than one shit match, how can you not say he's not #1?
Almost every one of the results you reference were accomplished before the JUNE power rank (Code S, the 2 ace matches vs. SKT, and every game except one in playoffs), when, like you say, INnoVation was clearly #1. Qualifying for IEM, rofl, any KeSPA player could've qualified. Life actually won the thing.
Everything I quoted was in July after the last power ranks came out. Get your facts straight.
You Innovation lovers are ridiculous. Seriously the bias is literally making me disgusted.
My claim for isn't for Innovation not being #1 because he lost a series 0-4 to Maru.
My claim is for Maru being #1 because he smashed Innovation who was the #1.
When you beat the best, you become the best. Look up the definition of the word "best".
Doesn't that make sense? This isn't about how everyone stacks up to our God Innovation who must play absolutely terribly and lose everything or he keeps the #1... it is about how each StarCraft 2 player plays in relation to each other. When you present it as "this is why Maru deserves it" rather than "this is why Innovation doesn't deserve it" the argument becomes much stronger. Because you've removed the bias. Without the bias you realize that wins in Proleague and a WCG qualifier pale in comparison to someone dominating the consensus #1 4-0 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world. Maru deserves the recognition, denying it is a slap in his face. Plenty of people did well in Proleague and the WCG qualifier in July, but only one swept the consensus #1 in a best of seven series 4-0.
And it isn't like the rest of Maru's month was terrible, he played extremely well in WCS. Take another look here at the July stats: Maru is 6-2 (75%) in matches 15-8 (65%) in games. Innovation is 17-4 (80%) in matches and 29-12 (70%) in games.
This is average Aligulac rating of Maru's opponents from July: 1603
This is average Aligulac rating of Innovation's opponents from July: 1429
So Innovation has the higher winrate, but it is against lesser opponents. But the main thing is that Maru proved to be the better player than Innovation in July, by sweeping the consensus #1 in a best of 7 series. Sweeping! It wasn't even close, no game was close!
You can't be #1 when you drop a best of seven 0-4 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world to someone you're supposed to beat. This doesn't mean that Innovation is bad, it doesn't mean he can't retake #1, but it means in July, he wasn't the best.
Because Maru was
.
Have you not realized that PR is never about the logic of A > B so A ranked higher than B? Because it's retarded. Losira must have been #1 cuz he 2-0'd Maru. Hows about that?
Funny you talks about opponents' quality: Maru: soO, sOs, EffOrt, SN, Trap, Losira, Symbol. Bogus: Bbyong, Savage, Flying, Bomber, Flash, SoulKey, [insert SPL players] Maru cheesed the shit out of sOs, Trap & later on Bogus, played a hilariously terrible ZvTer (srsly EffOrt should stop the hydraroach bs), played a lulz series with SN, drawing an similarly allinish Symbol. Now you tell me about opponents' quality.
The question to ask yourself is: what can one player achieve long-term with his play? Thats what PR is about. Maru with 80% of his game being shenanigans because he couldnt play straight-up? Top 4 for 3 consecutive cheeses is good enough for him. Everybody in the LR thread is like, lol this kid! lol cheesee loooool. Now you tell me thats the reaction for a top1 player? Oh and stop your kindergarten "A beat B so A > B" logic please
"Lol Maru cheese lol" is everybody reaction toward Maru? Sounds like butthurt Kespa fanboys mostly. Maru played the player and won. If anybody can play like that and beat Innovation, they would've done it. And Maru topped the KR ladder recently so don't even try to imply that he is just some cheesy noob, you're making yourself look bad. And what is so impressive about Bbyoung, Savage, Flying and Flash ? Are they better than Maru's opponents by definition? Innovation also lost to Bomber. Beating SK is impressive but SK also lost to SN, a player you seem to have a very low opinion on. So no, opponents quality of Maru is probably better, considering Innovation is among them.
Where all other Zergs have fallen, SK is holding the fort like Gandalf holding up against the Balrog. Based on the current meta, it's an amazing feat. Also, if you do watch his games against Inno (not sure about those against SN, didn't watch those), he did put up a great fight despite not taking any game.
So yeah, in my view, PR should also take in consideration of the current state of the game (meta, map imbalances, patches, etc.).
You Innovation lovers are ridiculous. Seriously the bias is literally making me disgusted.
My claim for isn't for Innovation not being #1 because he lost a series 0-4 to Maru.
My claim is for Maru being #1 because he smashed Innovation who was the #1.
When you beat the best, you become the best. Look up the definition of the word "best".
Doesn't that make sense? This isn't about how everyone stacks up to our God Innovation who must play absolutely terribly and lose everything or he keeps the #1... it is about how each StarCraft 2 player plays in relation to each other. When you present it as "this is why Maru deserves it" rather than "this is why Innovation doesn't deserve it" the argument becomes much stronger. Because you've removed the bias. Without the bias you realize that wins in Proleague and a WCG qualifier pale in comparison to someone dominating the consensus #1 4-0 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world. Maru deserves the recognition, denying it is a slap in his face. Plenty of people did well in Proleague and the WCG qualifier in July, but only one swept the consensus #1 in a best of seven series 4-0.
And it isn't like the rest of Maru's month was terrible, he played extremely well in WCS. Take another look here at the July stats: Maru is 6-2 (75%) in matches 15-8 (65%) in games. Innovation is 17-4 (80%) in matches and 29-12 (70%) in games.
This is average Aligulac rating of Maru's opponents from July: 1603
This is average Aligulac rating of Innovation's opponents from July: 1429
So Innovation has the higher winrate, but it is against lesser opponents. But the main thing is that Maru proved to be the better player than Innovation in July, by sweeping the consensus #1 in a best of 7 series. Sweeping! It wasn't even close, no game was close!
You can't be #1 when you drop a best of seven 0-4 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world to someone you're supposed to beat. This doesn't mean that Innovation is bad, it doesn't mean he can't retake #1, but it means in July, he wasn't the best.
Because Maru was
.
Have you not realized that PR is never about the logic of A > B so A ranked higher than B? Because it's retarded. Losira must have been #1 cuz he 2-0'd Maru. Hows about that?
Funny you talks about opponents' quality: Maru: soO, sOs, EffOrt, SN, Trap, Losira, Symbol. Bogus: Bbyong, Savage, Flying, Bomber, Flash, SoulKey, [insert SPL players] Maru cheesed the shit out of sOs, Trap & later on Bogus, played a hilariously terrible ZvTer (srsly EffOrt should stop the hydraroach bs), played a lulz series with SN, drawing an similarly allinish Symbol. Now you tell me about opponents' quality.
The question to ask yourself is: what can one player achieve long-term with his play? Thats what PR is about. Maru with 80% of his game being shenanigans because he couldnt play straight-up? Top 4 for 3 consecutive cheeses is good enough for him. Everybody in the LR thread is like, lol this kid! lol cheesee loooool. Now you tell me thats the reaction for a top1 player? Oh and stop your kindergarten "A beat B so A > B" logic please
"Lol Maru cheese lol" is everybody reaction toward Maru? Sounds like butthurt Kespa fanboys mostly.
He is one of the biggest kespa fanboys on this site, I wouldn't pay much attention to that rubbish above, it's clearly wrong. Was definitely a quality set of opponents Maru went through.
On August 09 2013 06:54 0317`Strike- wrote: "to no one's surprise, he's up at #1 again." INnoVation number one? Come on. He got knocked out of the quarterfinals in one of the most pitiful displays. It wasn't even close! And against a huge underdog, too. It was no upset, it was just showing that he could be targeted and prepared for like any other player. TvT isn't even Maru's best matchup. Clearly, INnoVation has some serious weaknesses. Maru straight up demolished him.
Also, INnoVation won a single game in the finals, and it wasn't even ace. By that standard you could say that Mini/Trap/Classic "led their team to victory"... come on. Power Rank, not Hype Rank, please.
The only one hyping anything is you (in this case anti-hype). Innovation won 2 ace matches vs SKT. He was 6-1 in the playoffs. Of course he led his team to the championship.
In Code S he 2-0'd both Flash and Bbyong, and 3-0'd Soulkey. He qualified for IEM and hasn't lost a map yet in WCG. Other than one shit match, how can you not say he's not #1?
Almost every one of the results you reference were accomplished before the JUNE power rank (Code S, the 2 ace matches vs. SKT, and every game except one in playoffs), when, like you say, INnoVation was clearly #1. Qualifying for IEM, rofl, any KeSPA player could've qualified. Life actually won the thing.
Everything I quoted was in July after the last power ranks came out. Get your facts straight.
What people fail to notice is Inno's consistency - RO4 in WCS, RO8 in WCG Qualifiers (Maru is out) and leading STX to victory in SPL.
Sure, Maru is not in SPL, but that's how PR is - more opportunities, more data, more cookie points.
I hate to speculate, but based on historical data, does anyone honestly believe Maru can lead STX to victory like Inno has? But anyway, the most important data is that Inno has done it, Maru hasn't. That's a fact as much as Maru beating Inno once.
You Innovation lovers are ridiculous. Seriously the bias is literally making me disgusted.
My claim for isn't for Innovation not being #1 because he lost a series 0-4 to Maru.
My claim is for Maru being #1 because he smashed Innovation who was the #1.
When you beat the best, you become the best. Look up the definition of the word "best".
Doesn't that make sense? This isn't about how everyone stacks up to our God Innovation who must play absolutely terribly and lose everything or he keeps the #1... it is about how each StarCraft 2 player plays in relation to each other. When you present it as "this is why Maru deserves it" rather than "this is why Innovation doesn't deserve it" the argument becomes much stronger. Because you've removed the bias. Without the bias you realize that wins in Proleague and a WCG qualifier pale in comparison to someone dominating the consensus #1 4-0 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world. Maru deserves the recognition, denying it is a slap in his face. Plenty of people did well in Proleague and the WCG qualifier in July, but only one swept the consensus #1 in a best of seven series 4-0.
And it isn't like the rest of Maru's month was terrible, he played extremely well in WCS. Take another look here at the July stats: Maru is 6-2 (75%) in matches 15-8 (65%) in games. Innovation is 17-4 (80%) in matches and 29-12 (70%) in games.
This is average Aligulac rating of Maru's opponents from July: 1603
This is average Aligulac rating of Innovation's opponents from July: 1429
So Innovation has the higher winrate, but it is against lesser opponents. But the main thing is that Maru proved to be the better player than Innovation in July, by sweeping the consensus #1 in a best of 7 series. Sweeping! It wasn't even close, no game was close!
You can't be #1 when you drop a best of seven 0-4 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world to someone you're supposed to beat. This doesn't mean that Innovation is bad, it doesn't mean he can't retake #1, but it means in July, he wasn't the best.
Because Maru was
.
Have you not realized that PR is never about the logic of A > B so A ranked higher than B? Because it's retarded. Losira must have been #1 cuz he 2-0'd Maru. Hows about that?
Funny you talks about opponents' quality: Maru: soO, sOs, EffOrt, SN, Trap, Losira, Symbol. Bogus: Bbyong, Savage, Flying, Bomber, Flash, SoulKey, [insert SPL players] Maru cheesed the shit out of sOs, Trap & later on Bogus, played a hilariously terrible ZvTer (srsly EffOrt should stop the hydraroach bs), played a lulz series with SN, drawing an similarly allinish Symbol. Now you tell me about opponents' quality.
The question to ask yourself is: what can one player achieve long-term with his play? Thats what PR is about. Maru with 80% of his game being shenanigans because he couldnt play straight-up? Top 4 for 3 consecutive cheeses is good enough for him. Everybody in the LR thread is like, lol this kid! lol cheesee loooool. Now you tell me thats the reaction for a top1 player? Oh and stop your kindergarten "A beat B so A > B" logic please
"Lol Maru cheese lol" is everybody reaction toward Maru? Sounds like butthurt Kespa fanboys mostly. Maru played the player and won. If anybody can play like that and beat Innovation, they would've done it. And Maru topped the KR ladder recently so don't even try to imply that he is just some cheesy noob, you're making yourself look bad. And what is so impressive about Bbyoung, Savage, Flying and Flash ? Are they better than Maru's opponents by definition? Innovation also lost to Bomber. Beating SK is impressive but SK also lost to SN, a player you seem to have a very low opinion on. So no, opponents quality of Maru is probably better, considering Innovation is among them.
Where all other Zergs have fallen, SK is holding the fort like Gandalf holding up against the Balrog. Based on the current meta, it's an amazing feat. Also, if you do watch his games against Inno (not sure about those against SN, didn't watch those), he did put up a great fight despite not taking any game.
So yeah, in my view, PR should also take in consideration of the current state of the game (meta, map imbalances, patches, etc.).
SK fighting!
Definitely. In fact, as much as I like SN, him beating SK indicates that we might have a balance/meta problem.
You Innovation lovers are ridiculous. Seriously the bias is literally making me disgusted.
My claim for isn't for Innovation not being #1 because he lost a series 0-4 to Maru.
My claim is for Maru being #1 because he smashed Innovation who was the #1.
When you beat the best, you become the best. Look up the definition of the word "best".
Doesn't that make sense? This isn't about how everyone stacks up to our God Innovation who must play absolutely terribly and lose everything or he keeps the #1... it is about how each StarCraft 2 player plays in relation to each other. When you present it as "this is why Maru deserves it" rather than "this is why Innovation doesn't deserve it" the argument becomes much stronger. Because you've removed the bias. Without the bias you realize that wins in Proleague and a WCG qualifier pale in comparison to someone dominating the consensus #1 4-0 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world. Maru deserves the recognition, denying it is a slap in his face. Plenty of people did well in Proleague and the WCG qualifier in July, but only one swept the consensus #1 in a best of seven series 4-0.
And it isn't like the rest of Maru's month was terrible, he played extremely well in WCS. Take another look here at the July stats: Maru is 6-2 (75%) in matches 15-8 (65%) in games. Innovation is 17-4 (80%) in matches and 29-12 (70%) in games.
This is average Aligulac rating of Maru's opponents from July: 1603
This is average Aligulac rating of Innovation's opponents from July: 1429
So Innovation has the higher winrate, but it is against lesser opponents. But the main thing is that Maru proved to be the better player than Innovation in July, by sweeping the consensus #1 in a best of 7 series. Sweeping! It wasn't even close, no game was close!
You can't be #1 when you drop a best of seven 0-4 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world to someone you're supposed to beat. This doesn't mean that Innovation is bad, it doesn't mean he can't retake #1, but it means in July, he wasn't the best.
Because Maru was
.
Have you not realized that PR is never about the logic of A > B so A ranked higher than B? Because it's retarded. Losira must have been #1 cuz he 2-0'd Maru. Hows about that?
Funny you talks about opponents' quality: Maru: soO, sOs, EffOrt, SN, Trap, Losira, Symbol. Bogus: Bbyong, Savage, Flying, Bomber, Flash, SoulKey, [insert SPL players] Maru cheesed the shit out of sOs, Trap & later on Bogus, played a hilariously terrible ZvTer (srsly EffOrt should stop the hydraroach bs), played a lulz series with SN, drawing an similarly allinish Symbol. Now you tell me about opponents' quality.
The question to ask yourself is: what can one player achieve long-term with his play? Thats what PR is about. Maru with 80% of his game being shenanigans because he couldnt play straight-up? Top 4 for 3 consecutive cheeses is good enough for him. Everybody in the LR thread is like, lol this kid! lol cheesee loooool. Now you tell me thats the reaction for a top1 player? Oh and stop your kindergarten "A beat B so A > B" logic please
"Lol Maru cheese lol" is everybody reaction toward Maru? Sounds like butthurt Kespa fanboys mostly. Maru played the player and won. If anybody can play like that and beat Innovation, they would've done it. And Maru topped the KR ladder recently so don't even try to imply that he is just some cheesy noob, you're making yourself look bad. And what is so impressive about Bbyoung, Savage, Flying and Flash ? Are they better than Maru's opponents by definition? Innovation also lost to Bomber. Beating SK is impressive but SK also lost to SN, a player you seem to have a very low opinion on. So no, opponents quality of Maru is probably better, considering Innovation is among them.
Where all other Zergs have fallen, SK is holding the fort like Gandalf holding up against the Balrog. Based on the current meta, it's an amazing feat. Also, if you do watch his games against Inno (not sure about those against SN, didn't watch those), he did put up a great fight despite not taking any game.
So yeah, in my view, PR should also take in consideration of the current state of the game (meta, map imbalances, patches, etc.).
SK fighting!
Definitely. In fact, as much as I like SN, him beating SK indicates that we might have a balance/meta problem.
Know what? Zerg fanboys shouldn't be too worried. It's written in the stars. History will repeat itself. A new Savior will rise from the ashes pretty much soon, next year tops.
(Then again, the new Bisu will take him down before end of HoTS. And in LOTV, the new Jangbi will rise.)
You Innovation lovers are ridiculous. Seriously the bias is literally making me disgusted.
My claim for isn't for Innovation not being #1 because he lost a series 0-4 to Maru.
My claim is for Maru being #1 because he smashed Innovation who was the #1.
When you beat the best, you become the best. Look up the definition of the word "best".
Doesn't that make sense? This isn't about how everyone stacks up to our God Innovation who must play absolutely terribly and lose everything or he keeps the #1... it is about how each StarCraft 2 player plays in relation to each other. When you present it as "this is why Maru deserves it" rather than "this is why Innovation doesn't deserve it" the argument becomes much stronger. Because you've removed the bias. Without the bias you realize that wins in Proleague and a WCG qualifier pale in comparison to someone dominating the consensus #1 4-0 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world. Maru deserves the recognition, denying it is a slap in his face. Plenty of people did well in Proleague and the WCG qualifier in July, but only one swept the consensus #1 in a best of seven series 4-0.
And it isn't like the rest of Maru's month was terrible, he played extremely well in WCS. Take another look here at the July stats: Maru is 6-2 (75%) in matches 15-8 (65%) in games. Innovation is 17-4 (80%) in matches and 29-12 (70%) in games.
This is average Aligulac rating of Maru's opponents from July: 1603
This is average Aligulac rating of Innovation's opponents from July: 1429
So Innovation has the higher winrate, but it is against lesser opponents. But the main thing is that Maru proved to be the better player than Innovation in July, by sweeping the consensus #1 in a best of 7 series. Sweeping! It wasn't even close, no game was close!
You can't be #1 when you drop a best of seven 0-4 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world to someone you're supposed to beat. This doesn't mean that Innovation is bad, it doesn't mean he can't retake #1, but it means in July, he wasn't the best.
Because Maru was
.
Have you not realized that PR is never about the logic of A > B so A ranked higher than B? Because it's retarded. Losira must have been #1 cuz he 2-0'd Maru. Hows about that?
Funny you talks about opponents' quality: Maru: soO, sOs, EffOrt, SN, Trap, Losira, Symbol. Bogus: Bbyong, Savage, Flying, Bomber, Flash, SoulKey, [insert SPL players] Maru cheesed the shit out of sOs, Trap & later on Bogus, played a hilariously terrible ZvTer (srsly EffOrt should stop the hydraroach bs), played a lulz series with SN, drawing an similarly allinish Symbol. Now you tell me about opponents' quality.
The question to ask yourself is: what can one player achieve long-term with his play? Thats what PR is about. Maru with 80% of his game being shenanigans because he couldnt play straight-up? Top 4 for 3 consecutive cheeses is good enough for him. Everybody in the LR thread is like, lol this kid! lol cheesee loooool. Now you tell me thats the reaction for a top1 player? Oh and stop your kindergarten "A beat B so A > B" logic please
"Lol Maru cheese lol" is everybody reaction toward Maru? Sounds like butthurt Kespa fanboys mostly. Maru played the player and won. If anybody can play like that and beat Innovation, they would've done it. And Maru topped the KR ladder recently so don't even try to imply that he is just some cheesy noob, you're making yourself look bad. And what is so impressive about Bbyoung, Savage, Flying and Flash ? Are they better than Maru's opponents by definition? Innovation also lost to Bomber. Beating SK is impressive but SK also lost to SN, a player you seem to have a very low opinion on. So no, opponents quality of Maru is probably better, considering Innovation is among them.
No, Maru is good. Obviously he's good. However, the people saying "Maru 4-0 Innovation so Maru > Innovation" are stupid.
People thinking Maru > Innovation because A > B should realize that Starcraft isn't mathematics and you can't use mathematical properties (associative-property starcraft logic is so fucking terrible) and that this game has different matchups. Innovation's TvZ and TvP are so ridiculous right now that his loss to Maru in TvT is acceptable. If his 0-6 (vs Maru and Bomber in TvT) had been instead 0-2 in all three matchups, you could make the argument to remove him from #1.
You Innovation lovers are ridiculous. Seriously the bias is literally making me disgusted.
My claim for isn't for Innovation not being #1 because he lost a series 0-4 to Maru.
My claim is for Maru being #1 because he smashed Innovation who was the #1.
When you beat the best, you become the best. Look up the definition of the word "best".
Doesn't that make sense? This isn't about how everyone stacks up to our God Innovation who must play absolutely terribly and lose everything or he keeps the #1... it is about how each StarCraft 2 player plays in relation to each other. When you present it as "this is why Maru deserves it" rather than "this is why Innovation doesn't deserve it" the argument becomes much stronger. Because you've removed the bias. Without the bias you realize that wins in Proleague and a WCG qualifier pale in comparison to someone dominating the consensus #1 4-0 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world. Maru deserves the recognition, denying it is a slap in his face. Plenty of people did well in Proleague and the WCG qualifier in July, but only one swept the consensus #1 in a best of seven series 4-0.
And it isn't like the rest of Maru's month was terrible, he played extremely well in WCS. Take another look here at the July stats: Maru is 6-2 (75%) in matches 15-8 (65%) in games. Innovation is 17-4 (80%) in matches and 29-12 (70%) in games.
This is average Aligulac rating of Maru's opponents from July: 1603
This is average Aligulac rating of Innovation's opponents from July: 1429
So Innovation has the higher winrate, but it is against lesser opponents. But the main thing is that Maru proved to be the better player than Innovation in July, by sweeping the consensus #1 in a best of 7 series. Sweeping! It wasn't even close, no game was close!
You can't be #1 when you drop a best of seven 0-4 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world to someone you're supposed to beat. This doesn't mean that Innovation is bad, it doesn't mean he can't retake #1, but it means in July, he wasn't the best.
Because Maru was
.
Have you not realized that PR is never about the logic of A > B so A ranked higher than B? Because it's retarded. Losira must have been #1 cuz he 2-0'd Maru. Hows about that?
Funny you talks about opponents' quality: Maru: soO, sOs, EffOrt, SN, Trap, Losira, Symbol. Bogus: Bbyong, Savage, Flying, Bomber, Flash, SoulKey, [insert SPL players] Maru cheesed the shit out of sOs, Trap & later on Bogus, played a hilariously terrible ZvTer (srsly EffOrt should stop the hydraroach bs), played a lulz series with SN, drawing an similarly allinish Symbol. Now you tell me about opponents' quality.
The question to ask yourself is: what can one player achieve long-term with his play? Thats what PR is about. Maru with 80% of his game being shenanigans because he couldnt play straight-up? Top 4 for 3 consecutive cheeses is good enough for him. Everybody in the LR thread is like, lol this kid! lol cheesee loooool. Now you tell me thats the reaction for a top1 player? Oh and stop your kindergarten "A beat B so A > B" logic please
"Lol Maru cheese lol" is everybody reaction toward Maru? Sounds like butthurt Kespa fanboys mostly. Maru played the player and won. If anybody can play like that and beat Innovation, they would've done it. And Maru topped the KR ladder recently so don't even try to imply that he is just some cheesy noob, you're making yourself look bad. And what is so impressive about Bbyoung, Savage, Flying and Flash ? Are they better than Maru's opponents by definition? Innovation also lost to Bomber. Beating SK is impressive but SK also lost to SN, a player you seem to have a very low opinion on. So no, opponents quality of Maru is probably better, considering Innovation is among them.
No, Maru is good. Obviously he's good. However, the people saying "Maru 4-0 Innovation so Maru > Innovation" are stupid.
People thinking Maru > Innovation because A > B should realize that Starcraft isn't mathematics and you can't use mathematical properties (associative-property starcraft logic is so fucking terrible) and that this game has different matchups. Innovation's TvZ and TvP are so ridiculous right now that his loss to Maru in TvT is acceptable. If his 0-6 (vs Maru and Bomber in TvT) had been instead 0-2 in all three matchups, you could make the argument to remove him from #1.
Also as far as your Innovation beat Maru, he's better argument: Haypro beat Nestea and barely lost to MVP once at an MLG. According to your formula since we're apparently taking nothing into account other than head to head it goes 1. MVP 2. Haypro 3. Nestea
Would that be what you took away from that MLG?
If you were judging the performance of players by only that MLG, then what you said is correct of course. How else can you view it? If someone unfamiliar with E-Sports looked only at the results from that MLG they would rank Haypro higher than Nestea. And that should be obvious. However, MLG is more difficult to gauge because it is a single day tournament and you don't have time to specifically prepare for each opponent. For this reason I believe it doesn't require as much SC2 skill, and you rely more on endurance. Finally, those were best of 3, not best of 7, and Haypro didn't sweep Nestea.
This Power Rank judges the performance of this month, with some weight given to past performances. Based on the past Innovation should have dominated this month. He did not. He was soundly beaten 4-0. Thus he no longer deserves the #1 spot.
That doesn't mean he can't get it back, or that he is bad. It means that when it mattered in July, Maru was better. And the results show that.
Wow, you've really started a war. Whilst I understand your point, I find it difficult to accept, just like most people here.
Before you should go on further, why not you come up with your own PR?
This is not a diversionary challenge. The point here is that PR is not about A vs B, or in this case, Maru v Inno. It's about A v B v C v D.... basically all the top pros in SC2. But let's make it simple and limit it to the current Top 10 this month, shall we?
You are saying that Maru > Inno. That is true. The rest are saying that Inno > 8 players in the Top 10, whilst Maru probably only > 5. And they say this not because everyone in the Top 10 has played before, but based on previous meetings in previous months and their observation on everyone's play. Whilst this is not really objective, it is the best data they can rely on, without hypothesising in vacuum.
So yes, Maru beat Inno. But most evidence point to the fact that Inno will likely beat the shit outta the rest of the Top 10, whilst Maru might struggle against half of them them, even based on this month's form. Inno has won against SK and Rain not once but more than once in the same month, though losing against Bomber (in arguably a dead rubber). Maru has yet to play against 3 of them. How can we say that Maru is better than SK, Rain and Bomber as well? Just because he beat Inno once?
Seriously, this ain't about Maru v Inno. Once you try to pit EVERYONE against EVERYONE, you will understand how difficult it is to come up with a PR rank. And what's very clear is that your "A beats B so A is better than B" formula will go nowhere in coming up with a definitive PR (Inno > Rain > Bomber > Inno: figure that one out).
We're only looking at July, so let's check out their winrates and the strength of their opponents (as I did earlier with Maru and Innovation, we saw Innovation with the better winrate (80% to 75%), but Maru's opposition was over 150 points better in Aligulac rating.)
#1 Maru #2 Rain #3 Innovation #4 Bomber #5 First #6 Supernova #7 Soulkey #8 Hyun #9 Taeja #10 San
I put this together quickly, and still feel there is some room for movement from 6-10 (Flash is right there). 1-4 are solid.
I also think it is worth looking at people like Taeja And Soulkey. Does either really deserve a high spot? Taeja beat Polt and XY, and won the Asus ROG over some second tier Koreans. I don't think he does. And Soulkey has been struggling mightily. His claim to fame is that win over Innovation, which at this point looks more like an Innovation Choke than a Soulkey win. He might even deserve a lower spot.
Finally, I think San deserves a spot, with wins over DRG (x2), Creator, Hyun, Sen and a long streak of foreigners.
Maru and Rain take the top spots as the two remaining players in the best individual tournament in the world. Both are playing well and had a great month. Innovation had a good month everywhere except the OSL where he was mediocre (7-6 in games) and looked terrible in a loss to Maru.
On August 09 2013 14:30 SAFenix wrote: Holy shit, never expected Maru's 4-0 over INnoVation to cause this much of a shitstorm.
Tbh the thing I'm most surprised at is why the pitchforks aren't coming out to argue why Bisu isn't #1...
One reason that makes me sad now that SPL is over is the decline of artwork from so-called BW elitists. I hope people like BisuDagger hasn't laid down his pitchfork and paintbrush.
I mean seriously, SC2 fans have to step on creativity. The only memorable memes/gifs that I can think off is Keen's celebration and the MVP pow one (which IMHO is only mehhh). Sad that MC is not top form, otherwise we'll see more hilarious throat-cutting poses.
On August 09 2013 14:59 Rhaegal wrote: So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee?
Of course it does. But if I am not mistaken, Innovation got a single win over Soulkey in the Proleague final. Innovation was favored and won a match he should have. Great, that helps keep him #1, but the OSL Ro4 best of seven is far more important.
And in that match, Maru 4-0ed the consensus #1 and made it look it easy. Big difference in terms of achievements there. One is expected, the other is downright shocking.
And the WCG qualifiers are what tanked Innovation's Aligulac rating compared to Maru. Sure Innovation picked up a bunch of wins, but the opponents were suspect. So that nice 17-4 match score is deceiving compared to Maru's 6-2 when the average rating of his opponents is 1429 versus Maru's 1602. Innovations match score in the OLS was 3-2, and his game score 7-6, compared to 4-1 and 11-5 for Maru.
On August 09 2013 14:59 Rhaegal wrote: So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee?
Of course it does. But if I am not mistaken, Innovation got a single win over Soulkey in the Proleague final. So Innovation was favored and won a match he should have. Great.
But Maru 4-0ed the consensus #1 and made it look it easy.
Big difference in terms of achievements there. One is expected, the other is downright shocking. And the WCG qualifiers are what tanked his Aligulac rating compared to Maru. Sure he picked up a bunch of wins, but the opponents were suspect.
Yea, those qualifiers that Maru got 2-0'd in in the first round by someone with 1295 elo.
And you ignore Innovations other proleague victories in July.. like vs Rain or Fantasy?
Writers would look like idiots if they made Maru #1. Innovation is the best player in the world, losing 1 series doesn't change that.
Also as far as your Innovation beat Maru, he's better argument: Haypro beat Nestea and barely lost to MVP once at an MLG. According to your formula since we're apparently taking nothing into account other than head to head it goes 1. MVP 2. Haypro 3. Nestea
Would that be what you took away from that MLG?
If you were judging the performance of players by only that MLG, then what you said is correct of course. How else can you view it? If someone unfamiliar with E-Sports looked only at the results from that MLG they would rank Haypro higher than Nestea. And that should be obvious. However, MLG is more difficult to gauge because it is a single day tournament and you don't have time to specifically prepare for each opponent. For this reason I believe it doesn't require as much SC2 skill, and you rely more on endurance. Finally, those were best of 3, not best of 7, and Haypro didn't sweep Nestea.
This Power Rank judges the performance of this month, with some weight given to past performances. Based on the past Innovation should have dominated this month. He did not. He was soundly beaten 4-0. Thus he no longer deserves the #1 spot.
That doesn't mean he can't get it back, or that he is bad. It means that when it mattered in July, Maru was better. And the results show that.
Wow, you've really started a war. Whilst I understand your point, I find it difficult to accept, just like most people here.
Before you should go on further, why not you come up with your own PR?
This is not a diversionary challenge. The point here is that PR is not about A vs B, or in this case, Maru v Inno. It's about A v B v C v D.... basically all the top pros in SC2. But let's make it simple and limit it to the current Top 10 this month, shall we?
You are saying that Maru > Inno. That is true. The rest are saying that Inno > 8 players in the Top 10, whilst Maru probably only > 5. And they say this not because everyone in the Top 10 has played before, but based on previous meetings in previous months and their observation on everyone's play. Whilst this is not really objective, it is the best data they can rely on, without hypothesising in vacuum.
So yes, Maru beat Inno. But most evidence point to the fact that Inno will likely beat the shit outta the rest of the Top 10, whilst Maru might struggle against half of them them, even based on this month's form. Inno has won against SK and Rain not once but more than once in the same month, though losing against Bomber (in arguably a dead rubber). Maru has yet to play against 3 of them. How can we say that Maru is better than SK, Rain and Bomber as well? Just because he beat Inno once?
Seriously, this ain't about Maru v Inno. Once you try to pit EVERYONE against EVERYONE, you will understand how difficult it is to come up with a PR rank. And what's very clear is that your "A beats B so A is better than B" formula will go nowhere in coming up with a definitive PR (Inno > Rain > Bomber > Inno: figure that one out).
We're only looking at July, so let's check out their winrates and the strength of their opponents (as I did earlier with Maru and Innovation, we saw Innovation with the better winrate (80% to 75%), but Maru's opposition was over 150 points better in Aligulac rating.)
#1 Maru #2 Rain #3 Innovation #4 Bomber #5 First #6 Supernova #7 Soulkey #8 Hyun #9 Taeja #10 San
I put this together quickly, and still feel there is some room for movement from 6-10 (Flash is right there). 1-4 are solid.
I also think it is worth looking at people like Taeja And Soulkey. Does either really deserve a high spot? Taeja beat Polt and XY, and won the Asus ROG over some second tier Koreans. I don't think he does. And Soulkey has been struggling mightily. His claim to fame is that win over Innovation, which at this point looks more like an Innovation Choke than a Soulkey win. He might even deserve a lower spot.
Finally, I think San deserves a spot, with wins over DRG (x2), Creator, Hyun, Sen and a long streak of foreigners.
Maru and Rain take the top spots as the two remaining players in the best individual tournament in the world. Both are playing well and had a great month. Innovation had a good month everywhere except the OSL where he was mediocre (7-6 in games) and looked terrible in a loss to Maru.
Maru played way less games than Innovation and less impressive. How the hell can he be #1 on that list?
Also as far as your Innovation beat Maru, he's better argument: Haypro beat Nestea and barely lost to MVP once at an MLG. According to your formula since we're apparently taking nothing into account other than head to head it goes 1. MVP 2. Haypro 3. Nestea
Would that be what you took away from that MLG?
If you were judging the performance of players by only that MLG, then what you said is correct of course. How else can you view it? If someone unfamiliar with E-Sports looked only at the results from that MLG they would rank Haypro higher than Nestea. And that should be obvious. However, MLG is more difficult to gauge because it is a single day tournament and you don't have time to specifically prepare for each opponent. For this reason I believe it doesn't require as much SC2 skill, and you rely more on endurance. Finally, those were best of 3, not best of 7, and Haypro didn't sweep Nestea.
This Power Rank judges the performance of this month, with some weight given to past performances. Based on the past Innovation should have dominated this month. He did not. He was soundly beaten 4-0. Thus he no longer deserves the #1 spot.
That doesn't mean he can't get it back, or that he is bad. It means that when it mattered in July, Maru was better. And the results show that.
Wow, you've really started a war. Whilst I understand your point, I find it difficult to accept, just like most people here.
Before you should go on further, why not you come up with your own PR?
This is not a diversionary challenge. The point here is that PR is not about A vs B, or in this case, Maru v Inno. It's about A v B v C v D.... basically all the top pros in SC2. But let's make it simple and limit it to the current Top 10 this month, shall we?
You are saying that Maru > Inno. That is true. The rest are saying that Inno > 8 players in the Top 10, whilst Maru probably only > 5. And they say this not because everyone in the Top 10 has played before, but based on previous meetings in previous months and their observation on everyone's play. Whilst this is not really objective, it is the best data they can rely on, without hypothesising in vacuum.
So yes, Maru beat Inno. But most evidence point to the fact that Inno will likely beat the shit outta the rest of the Top 10, whilst Maru might struggle against half of them them, even based on this month's form. Inno has won against SK and Rain not once but more than once in the same month, though losing against Bomber (in arguably a dead rubber). Maru has yet to play against 3 of them. How can we say that Maru is better than SK, Rain and Bomber as well? Just because he beat Inno once?
Seriously, this ain't about Maru v Inno. Once you try to pit EVERYONE against EVERYONE, you will understand how difficult it is to come up with a PR rank. And what's very clear is that your "A beats B so A is better than B" formula will go nowhere in coming up with a definitive PR (Inno > Rain > Bomber > Inno: figure that one out).
We're only looking at July, so let's check out their winrates and the strength of their opponents (as I did earlier with Maru and Innovation, we saw Innovation with the better winrate (80% to 75%), but Maru's opposition was over 150 points better in Aligulac rating.)
#1 Maru #2 Rain #3 Innovation #4 Bomber #5 First #6 Supernova #7 Soulkey #8 Hyun #9 Taeja #10 San
I put this together quickly, and still feel there is some room for movement from 6-10 (Flash is right there). 1-4 are solid.
I also think it is worth looking at people like Taeja And Soulkey. Does either really deserve a high spot? Taeja beat Polt and XY, and won the Asus ROG over some second tier Koreans. I don't think he does. And Soulkey has been struggling mightily. His claim to fame is that win over Innovation, which at this point looks more like an Innovation Choke than a Soulkey win. He might even deserve a lower spot.
Finally, I think San deserves a spot, with wins over DRG (x2), Creator, Hyun, Sen and a long streak of foreigners.
Maru and Rain take the top spots as the two remaining players in the best individual tournament in the world. Both are playing well and had a great month. Innovation had a good month everywhere except the OSL where he was mediocre (7-6 in games) and looked terrible in a loss to Maru.
Fair enough. Good try.
But I would still give a lot of weightage to SPL. It's too bad Maru is not in it, but that's just bad luck. Then again, he has GSTL, which I don't think he was carrying Prime the way Inno was carrying STX (I may be wrong, I hardly follow GSTL).
Anyway, mine would be something like:
1. Inno 2. Rain 3. Maru 4. SK 5. Bomber / First (?)
I can't rate beyond that, because I don't really follow the foreign scene. Yes, I may seem to be downplaying the quality of foreign tourneys, as essentially I am arbitrarily deciding that finishing No. 1 in a foreign tourney will only get you as far as 6-10 in PR.
For me, Inno still takes the cake for performing well in SPL and WCG qualifiers.
As a football equivalent, it's always more difficult preparing to fight for the national league title (EPL/SPL/Bundesliga) and the regional title (Champions League), as opposed to fight for just one. You have to consider that teams (just like pro players in sponsored clans) have to equally divide their time, to maximise the most profit. I'm sure a lot of Inno and SK's time was torn between SPL and WCS. That's bad luck. But the great thing for Inno was that he did well in both, nonetheless.
Also, I think past month's results is indirectly telling, and should be considered.
Flash f**ed up in RO16 WCS, thus minimising his chance to impress last month.
Inno did well in all tourneys he contested in, thus giving himself plenty of chances to shine, month after month.
Theoretically, Maru could've done for Prime what Inno did for STX, thus giving himself a chance to shine in GSTL - but he didn't.
Point is, there's always carry forward effect from previous months. And players who consistently perform well and open chances for themselves to shine, should be rewarded.
On August 09 2013 14:59 Rhaegal wrote: So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee?
Of course it does. But if I am not mistaken, Innovation got a single win over Soulkey in the Proleague final. So Innovation was favored and won a match he should have. Great.
But Maru 4-0ed the consensus #1 and made it look it easy.
Big difference in terms of achievements there. One is expected, the other is downright shocking. And the WCG qualifiers are what tanked his Aligulac rating compared to Maru. Sure he picked up a bunch of wins, but the opponents were suspect.
Yea, those qualifiers that Maru got 2-0'd in in the first round by someone with 1295 elo.
And you ignore Innovations other proleague victories in July.. like vs Rain or Fantasy?
Writers would look like idiots if they made Maru #1. Innovation is the best player in the world, losing 1 series doesn't change that.
In my mind, the most important match they both played last month individually was the OSL Ro4 match. It was also a best of seven and the best chance to showcase their skills. Maru won that match 4-0.
Proleague is important, and Innovation performed well, but it was a Bo1 format. The WCG qualifiers are great too, but none of that is as important as a best of seven for these individual rankings.
That is my opinion, if you think Proleague is more important, that is fine. I think a Bo1 format is terrible, and while him beating Fantasy, Rain and Soulkey are good, his wins against Crazy and Hitman, while still good, aren't that impressive due to their rankings, and his lost to Best isn't good.
In other words, he performed well enough in Proleague to easily keep his ranking if that was the premier tournament to showcase his individual skills. But it isn't. The OSL is.
Let me put it this way, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team in the world right now after winning Proleague? If not, then why would you argue that Maru or Rain isn't the best player as they are about to win an WCS/OSL?
Also as far as your Innovation beat Maru, he's better argument: Haypro beat Nestea and barely lost to MVP once at an MLG. According to your formula since we're apparently taking nothing into account other than head to head it goes 1. MVP 2. Haypro 3. Nestea
Would that be what you took away from that MLG?
If you were judging the performance of players by only that MLG, then what you said is correct of course. How else can you view it? If someone unfamiliar with E-Sports looked only at the results from that MLG they would rank Haypro higher than Nestea. And that should be obvious. However, MLG is more difficult to gauge because it is a single day tournament and you don't have time to specifically prepare for each opponent. For this reason I believe it doesn't require as much SC2 skill, and you rely more on endurance. Finally, those were best of 3, not best of 7, and Haypro didn't sweep Nestea.
This Power Rank judges the performance of this month, with some weight given to past performances. Based on the past Innovation should have dominated this month. He did not. He was soundly beaten 4-0. Thus he no longer deserves the #1 spot.
That doesn't mean he can't get it back, or that he is bad. It means that when it mattered in July, Maru was better. And the results show that.
Wow, you've really started a war. Whilst I understand your point, I find it difficult to accept, just like most people here.
Before you should go on further, why not you come up with your own PR?
This is not a diversionary challenge. The point here is that PR is not about A vs B, or in this case, Maru v Inno. It's about A v B v C v D.... basically all the top pros in SC2. But let's make it simple and limit it to the current Top 10 this month, shall we?
You are saying that Maru > Inno. That is true. The rest are saying that Inno > 8 players in the Top 10, whilst Maru probably only > 5. And they say this not because everyone in the Top 10 has played before, but based on previous meetings in previous months and their observation on everyone's play. Whilst this is not really objective, it is the best data they can rely on, without hypothesising in vacuum.
So yes, Maru beat Inno. But most evidence point to the fact that Inno will likely beat the shit outta the rest of the Top 10, whilst Maru might struggle against half of them them, even based on this month's form. Inno has won against SK and Rain not once but more than once in the same month, though losing against Bomber (in arguably a dead rubber). Maru has yet to play against 3 of them. How can we say that Maru is better than SK, Rain and Bomber as well? Just because he beat Inno once?
Seriously, this ain't about Maru v Inno. Once you try to pit EVERYONE against EVERYONE, you will understand how difficult it is to come up with a PR rank. And what's very clear is that your "A beats B so A is better than B" formula will go nowhere in coming up with a definitive PR (Inno > Rain > Bomber > Inno: figure that one out).
We're only looking at July, so let's check out their winrates and the strength of their opponents (as I did earlier with Maru and Innovation, we saw Innovation with the better winrate (80% to 75%), but Maru's opposition was over 150 points better in Aligulac rating.)
#1 Maru #2 Rain #3 Innovation #4 Bomber #5 First #6 Supernova #7 Soulkey #8 Hyun #9 Taeja #10 San
I put this together quickly, and still feel there is some room for movement from 6-10 (Flash is right there). 1-4 are solid.
I also think it is worth looking at people like Taeja And Soulkey. Does either really deserve a high spot? Taeja beat Polt and XY, and won the Asus ROG over some second tier Koreans. I don't think he does. And Soulkey has been struggling mightily. His claim to fame is that win over Innovation, which at this point looks more like an Innovation Choke than a Soulkey win. He might even deserve a lower spot.
Finally, I think San deserves a spot, with wins over DRG (x2), Creator, Hyun, Sen and a long streak of foreigners.
Maru and Rain take the top spots as the two remaining players in the best individual tournament in the world. Both are playing well and had a great month. Innovation had a good month everywhere except the OSL where he was mediocre (7-6 in games) and looked terrible in a loss to Maru.
Maru played way less games than Innovation and less impressive. How the hell can he be #1 on that list?
Less impressive? He beat better overall players, including a sweep of Innovation himself?
Why does it matter how many games he does play honestly? A lot of Innovations games were against lower level opponents (hence the 173 point difference in Aligulac rating between Maru's and Innovation's opponents). Should Maru have played a bunch of scrubs to up his win percentage at expense of his Aligulac rating?
You guys see this big win percentage and a lot of game and assume it means great things, when it doesn't.
Don't hold the fact Maru isn't in Proleague against him. Individual leagues should count more for individual rankings.
On August 09 2013 15:10 RKC wrote:
For me, Inno still takes the cake for performing well in SPL and WCG qualifiers.
Here is the difference. A lot of players performed well in SPL and the WCG qualifiers. Gumiho, Parting, Rain, Soulkey, ect all did well at WCG, it isn't a huge achievement, it is just a qualifier. As for the SPL, Trap won every game he was sent out for, 100% winrate. It isn't anything that impressive because these results happens much more frequently.
But a Ro4 sweep in a best of seven against the consensus best player in the world is impressive, and doesn't happen frequently.
On August 09 2013 14:59 Rhaegal wrote: So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee?
Of course it does. But if I am not mistaken, Innovation got a single win over Soulkey in the Proleague final. So Innovation was favored and won a match he should have. Great.
But Maru 4-0ed the consensus #1 and made it look it easy.
Big difference in terms of achievements there. One is expected, the other is downright shocking. And the WCG qualifiers are what tanked his Aligulac rating compared to Maru. Sure he picked up a bunch of wins, but the opponents were suspect.
Yea, those qualifiers that Maru got 2-0'd in in the first round by someone with 1295 elo.
And you ignore Innovations other proleague victories in July.. like vs Rain or Fantasy?
Writers would look like idiots if they made Maru #1. Innovation is the best player in the world, losing 1 series doesn't change that.
In my mind, the most important match they both played last month individually was the OSL Ro4 match. It was also a best of seven and the best chance to showcase their skills. Maru won that match 4-0.
Proleague is important, and Innovation performed well, but it was a Bo1 format. The WCG qualifiers are great too, but none of that is as important as a best of seven for these individual rankings.
That is my opinion, if you think Proleague is more important, that is fine. I think a Bo1 format is terrible, and while him beating Fantasy, Rain and Soulkey are good, his wins against Crazy and Hitman, while still good, aren't that impressive due to their rankings, and his lost to Best isn't good.
In other words, he performed well enough in Proleague to easily keep his ranking if that was the premier tournament to showcase his individual skills. But it isn't. The OSL is.
Let me put it this way, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team in the world right now after winning Proleague? If not, then why would you argue that Maru or Rain isn't the best player as they are about to win an WCS/OSL?
Not only did Inno beat all opposition in the SPL playoffs, he also won the ace matches against SKT when both matches were tied 3-3. That's clutch.
Yes, STX is the best team in SPL. But Inno had a lot to do with it. He's like Messi of Barcelona, Ronaldo of Real Madrid. True, it's still down to the team, but contributing 20%-30%, which is how I rate Inno's contribution to STX, is a great feat for any player.
Anyway, the issue seems to boil down to the significance of SPL. We can all agree to disagree on this. Maybe it's my BW background, but I regard SPL highly (as do the Kespa teams and players themselves).
On August 09 2013 14:59 Rhaegal wrote: So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee?
Of course it does. But if I am not mistaken, Innovation got a single win over Soulkey in the Proleague final. So Innovation was favored and won a match he should have. Great.
But Maru 4-0ed the consensus #1 and made it look it easy.
Big difference in terms of achievements there. One is expected, the other is downright shocking. And the WCG qualifiers are what tanked his Aligulac rating compared to Maru. Sure he picked up a bunch of wins, but the opponents were suspect.
Yea, those qualifiers that Maru got 2-0'd in in the first round by someone with 1295 elo.
And you ignore Innovations other proleague victories in July.. like vs Rain or Fantasy?
Writers would look like idiots if they made Maru #1. Innovation is the best player in the world, losing 1 series doesn't change that.
In my mind, the most important match they both played last month individually was the OSL Ro4 match. It was also a best of seven and the best chance to showcase their skills. Maru won that match 4-0.
Proleague is important, and Innovation performed well, but it was a Bo1 format. The WCG qualifiers are great too, but none of that is as important as a best of seven for these individual rankings.
That is my opinion, if you think Proleague is more important, that is fine. I think a Bo1 format is terrible, and while him beating Fantasy, Rain and Soulkey are good, his wins against Crazy and Hitman, while still good, aren't that impressive due to their rankings, and his lost to Best isn't good.
In other words, he performed well enough in Proleague to easily keep his ranking if that was the premier tournament to showcase his individual skills. But it isn't. The OSL is.
Let me put it this way, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team in the world right now after winning Proleague? If not, then why would you argue that Maru or Rain isn't the best player as they are about to win an WCS/OSL?
WJS is the best team in PL. Not sure about best in the world though cause IM is pretty strong. Again, Innovation's TvZ and TvP is far more impressive than Maru's. In TvT the hellbat nerf took away Innovation's best weapon so I say give him time to adapt. No one can deny that Maru was the better player in that series, but overall, it is a different story.
On August 09 2013 14:59 Rhaegal wrote: So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee?
Of course it does. But if I am not mistaken, Innovation got a single win over Soulkey in the Proleague final. So Innovation was favored and won a match he should have. Great.
But Maru 4-0ed the consensus #1 and made it look it easy.
Big difference in terms of achievements there. One is expected, the other is downright shocking. And the WCG qualifiers are what tanked his Aligulac rating compared to Maru. Sure he picked up a bunch of wins, but the opponents were suspect.
Yea, those qualifiers that Maru got 2-0'd in in the first round by someone with 1295 elo.
And you ignore Innovations other proleague victories in July.. like vs Rain or Fantasy?
Writers would look like idiots if they made Maru #1. Innovation is the best player in the world, losing 1 series doesn't change that.
In my mind, the most important match they both played last month individually was the OSL Ro4 match. It was also a best of seven and the best chance to showcase their skills. Maru won that match 4-0.
Proleague is important, and Innovation performed well, but it was a Bo1 format. The WCG qualifiers are great too, but none of that is as important as a best of seven for these individual rankings.
That is my opinion, if you think Proleague is more important, that is fine. I think a Bo1 format is terrible, and while him beating Fantasy, Rain and Soulkey are good, his wins against Crazy and Hitman, while still good, aren't that impressive due to their rankings, and his lost to Best isn't good.
In other words, he performed well enough in Proleague to easily keep his ranking if that was the premier tournament to showcase his individual skills. But it isn't. The OSL is.
Let me put it this way, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team in the world right now after winning Proleague? If not, then why would you argue that Maru or Rain isn't the best player as they are about to win an WCS/OSL?
Not only did Inno beat all opposition in the SPL playoffs, he also won the ace matches against SKT when both matches were tied 3-3. That's clutch.
Yes, STX is the best team in SPL. But Inno had a lot to do with it. He's like Messi of Barcelona, Ronaldo of Real Madrid. True, it's still down to the team, but contributing 20%-30%, which is how I rate Inno's contribution to STX, is a great feat for any player.
Anyway, the issue seems to boil down to the significance of SPL. We can all agree to disagree on this. Maybe it's my BW background, but I regard SPL highly (as do the Kespa teams and players themselves).
Frankly, I just find it disgusting and disrespectful to Maru that people would say "Hey great work, you smashed Innovation the best player in the world, your now #4!" and say to Innovation "Hey good try, no worries bud you're still #1!" No other Power Rank in any other sport works like this. The Patriots were ranked #1 after they upset the Rams in 2001, despite the Rams being heavily favored and having recently won another Superbowl.
It wasn't like their game was a group stage game, there was 4 players left, and both of these guys went through incredible competition, and to say that somehow Innovation is better is to completely ignore the results of a best of seven series. Sweet he won a bunch of SPL matches and did well in WCG... seriously that is great, but a lot of other, lesser players did the same thing in July. Those results in SPL and WCG aren't enough alone to keep someone at #1, especially when they drop a huge series 0-4 against an opponent they were favored, and end the month going a mediocre 7-6 in the OSL.
Trap performed better in the playoffs for STX statistically he never dropped a game. Innovation dropped a game to BeSt.
Finally, I'd like to say, that Innovation can't have it both ways. You can't say "Innovation is better than Maru because of his SPL wins, and his OSL loss is excusable because of his SPL wins." He can't both get an excuse for his OSL loss because he was preparing for SPL, but then get all this credit for wins in SPL. It is one or the other.
The fact Innovation split his time is his own fault, and if it negatively affects his play, than that is his problem. This is also why a ton of games and big win percentage shouldn't be the be all end all for the Power Rank.
On August 09 2013 14:59 Rhaegal wrote: So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee?
Of course it does. But if I am not mistaken, Innovation got a single win over Soulkey in the Proleague final. So Innovation was favored and won a match he should have. Great.
But Maru 4-0ed the consensus #1 and made it look it easy.
Big difference in terms of achievements there. One is expected, the other is downright shocking. And the WCG qualifiers are what tanked his Aligulac rating compared to Maru. Sure he picked up a bunch of wins, but the opponents were suspect.
Yea, those qualifiers that Maru got 2-0'd in in the first round by someone with 1295 elo.
And you ignore Innovations other proleague victories in July.. like vs Rain or Fantasy?
Writers would look like idiots if they made Maru #1. Innovation is the best player in the world, losing 1 series doesn't change that.
In my mind, the most important match they both played last month individually was the OSL Ro4 match. It was also a best of seven and the best chance to showcase their skills. Maru won that match 4-0.
Proleague is important, and Innovation performed well, but it was a Bo1 format. The WCG qualifiers are great too, but none of that is as important as a best of seven for these individual rankings.
That is my opinion, if you think Proleague is more important, that is fine. I think a Bo1 format is terrible, and while him beating Fantasy, Rain and Soulkey are good, his wins against Crazy and Hitman, while still good, aren't that impressive due to their rankings, and his lost to Best isn't good.
In other words, he performed well enough in Proleague to easily keep his ranking if that was the premier tournament to showcase his individual skills. But it isn't. The OSL is.
Let me put it this way, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team in the world right now after winning Proleague? If not, then why would you argue that Maru or Rain isn't the best player as they are about to win an WCS/OSL?
WJS is the best team in PL. Not sure about best in the world though cause IM is pretty strong. Again, Innovation's TvZ and TvP is far more impressive than Maru's. In TvT the hellbat nerf took away Innovation's best weapon so I say give him time to adapt. No one can deny that Maru was the better player in that series, but overall, it is a different story.
Care to explain why WJS is the best team in SPL? STX did actually perform better in the last three rounds of SPL, and they did go 5-0 in the playoffs to win. I would agree WJS was by far the strongest in WoL, but HotS changed some of the rankings IMO.
On August 09 2013 14:59 Rhaegal wrote: So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee?
Of course it does. But if I am not mistaken, Innovation got a single win over Soulkey in the Proleague final. So Innovation was favored and won a match he should have. Great.
But Maru 4-0ed the consensus #1 and made it look it easy.
Big difference in terms of achievements there. One is expected, the other is downright shocking. And the WCG qualifiers are what tanked his Aligulac rating compared to Maru. Sure he picked up a bunch of wins, but the opponents were suspect.
Yea, those qualifiers that Maru got 2-0'd in in the first round by someone with 1295 elo.
And you ignore Innovations other proleague victories in July.. like vs Rain or Fantasy?
Writers would look like idiots if they made Maru #1. Innovation is the best player in the world, losing 1 series doesn't change that.
In my mind, the most important match they both played last month individually was the OSL Ro4 match. It was also a best of seven and the best chance to showcase their skills. Maru won that match 4-0.
Proleague is important, and Innovation performed well, but it was a Bo1 format. The WCG qualifiers are great too, but none of that is as important as a best of seven for these individual rankings.
That is my opinion, if you think Proleague is more important, that is fine. I think a Bo1 format is terrible, and while him beating Fantasy, Rain and Soulkey are good, his wins against Crazy and Hitman, while still good, aren't that impressive due to their rankings, and his lost to Best isn't good.
In other words, he performed well enough in Proleague to easily keep his ranking if that was the premier tournament to showcase his individual skills. But it isn't. The OSL is.
Let me put it this way, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team in the world right now after winning Proleague? If not, then why would you argue that Maru or Rain isn't the best player as they are about to win an WCS/OSL?
WJS is the best team in PL. Not sure about best in the world though cause IM is pretty strong. Again, Innovation's TvZ and TvP is far more impressive than Maru's. In TvT the hellbat nerf took away Innovation's best weapon so I say give him time to adapt. No one can deny that Maru was the better player in that series, but overall, it is a different story.
Care to explain why WJS is the best team in SPL? STX did actually perform better in the last three rounds of SPL, and they did go 5-0 in the playoffs to win. I would agree WJS was by far the strongest in WoL, but HotS changed some of the rankings IMO.
He also argues that Innovation is better than Maru...
Beating the World No. 1 doesn't automatically make you the World No. 1.
Then again, I suppose that's the mentality that make the Scots think they're World Champions when they beat England shortly after the latter winning the World Cup in '66.
Imagine if A beats B but can't beat C to Z, B beats C to Z but not A. Is A the bonjwa alphabet? No.
Okay, fine, A may beat C-M. But B beating C-Z is still better.
On August 09 2013 15:39 RKC wrote: Beating the World No. 1 doesn't automatically make you the World No. 1.
He didn't just beat him in some Proleague best of one, or in the group stages. He smashed him in a best of seven in the Ro4 of the worlds best individual tournament. And it wasn't even close. He dominated every game, including the macro game.
It is the equivalent of Scotland defeating England 4-0 in the semi finals of 66' World Cup, and then saying "hey, we are better than England!" Which would have been true.
On August 09 2013 15:39 RKC wrote: Beating the World No. 1 doesn't automatically make you the World No. 1.
He didn't just beat him in some Proleague best of one, or in the group stages. He smashed him in a best of seven in the Ro4 of the worlds best individual tournament.
It is the equivalent of Scotland defeating England in the final four of a World Cup, and then saying "hey, we are better than England!" Which would be true.
I don't think the two games can be compared to easily. Maru did beat INnoVation handily, but it was one of the three match ups. I think it's hard to argue that Maru has better TvZ/TvP than INnoVation. Maybe he does, but I think it's unlikely. We will get to see more of Maru soon enough. And when the Global S2 Finals happen, we will see more. I think we should wait a bit before going too into this.
On August 09 2013 15:39 RKC wrote: Beating the World No. 1 doesn't automatically make you the World No. 1.
He didn't just beat him in some Proleague best of one, or in the group stages. He smashed him in a best of seven in the Ro4 of the worlds best individual tournament.
It is the equivalent of Scotland defeating England in the final four of a World Cup, and then saying "hey, we are better than England!" Which would be true.
I don't think the two games can be compared to easily. Maru did beat INnoVation handily, but it was one of the three match ups. I think it's hard to argue that Maru has better TvZ/TvP than INnoVation. Maybe he does, but I think it's unlikely. We will get to see more of Maru soon enough. And when the Global S2 Finals happen, we will see more. I think we should wait a bit before going too into this.
Honestly, it would have been good if the Power Rank came out after the finals, so you are correct.
However, at this very moment, based on results, the only legitimate arguments that can be made are for Rain or Maru. And seeing as though Maru smashed the consensus #1, his argument is very strong. As for Maru's other matchups, well he just beat Symbol handily, and will be facing Rain, so we'll find out.
You'd be foolish though to argue that the loser is the better player. It reeks of bias and favoritism.
On August 09 2013 15:46 BronzeKnee wrote: Well to some people Innovation will always be #1, as long as he doesn't lose every game.
Elephants...
He only got to the semi-finals and carried his team to PL victory (while doing well elsewhere like breezing through the IEM qualifier and kept advancing in the WCG qualifier). Kid shouldn't even be in the top 10 anymore right?
On August 09 2013 15:46 BronzeKnee wrote: Well to some people Innovation will always be #1, as long as he doesn't lose every game.
Elephants...
He only got to the semi-finals and carried his team to PL victory. Kid shouldn't even be in the top 10 anymore right?
I put him #3. Lots of lesser players did well in Proleague (Trap went undefeated for STX in the playsoffs) and lots of lesser players did well in WCG, but that pales in comparison to a 4-0 sweep of the consensus #1 player in the Ro4 of the OSL for individual rankings.
On August 09 2013 14:59 Rhaegal wrote: So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee?
Of course it does. But if I am not mistaken, Innovation got a single win over Soulkey in the Proleague final. So Innovation was favored and won a match he should have. Great.
But Maru 4-0ed the consensus #1 and made it look it easy.
Big difference in terms of achievements there. One is expected, the other is downright shocking. And the WCG qualifiers are what tanked his Aligulac rating compared to Maru. Sure he picked up a bunch of wins, but the opponents were suspect.
Yea, those qualifiers that Maru got 2-0'd in in the first round by someone with 1295 elo.
And you ignore Innovations other proleague victories in July.. like vs Rain or Fantasy?
Writers would look like idiots if they made Maru #1. Innovation is the best player in the world, losing 1 series doesn't change that.
In my mind, the most important match they both played last month individually was the OSL Ro4 match. It was also a best of seven and the best chance to showcase their skills. Maru won that match 4-0.
Proleague is important, and Innovation performed well, but it was a Bo1 format. The WCG qualifiers are great too, but none of that is as important as a best of seven for these individual rankings.
That is my opinion, if you think Proleague is more important, that is fine. I think a Bo1 format is terrible, and while him beating Fantasy, Rain and Soulkey are good, his wins against Crazy and Hitman, while still good, aren't that impressive due to their rankings, and his lost to Best isn't good.
In other words, he performed well enough in Proleague to easily keep his ranking if that was the premier tournament to showcase his individual skills. But it isn't. The OSL is.
Let me put it this way, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team in the world right now after winning Proleague? If not, then why would you argue that Maru or Rain isn't the best player as they are about to win an WCS/OSL?
WJS is the best team in PL. Not sure about best in the world though cause IM is pretty strong. Again, Innovation's TvZ and TvP is far more impressive than Maru's. In TvT the hellbat nerf took away Innovation's best weapon so I say give him time to adapt. No one can deny that Maru was the better player in that series, but overall, it is a different story.
Care to explain why WJS is the best team in SPL? STX did actually perform better in the last three rounds of SPL, and they did go 5-0 in the playoffs to win. I would agree WJS was by far the strongest in WoL, but HotS changed some of the rankings IMO.
Because WJS topped the PL ranking by a large margin for an extended period of times and kinda slacked off in the last rounds (cause they didn't have to play well). STX had great momentum in the end and they run everybody over but I still think WJS is a better team overall.
On August 09 2013 15:46 BronzeKnee wrote: Well to some people Innovation will always be #1, as long as he doesn't lose every game.
Elephants...
He only got to the semi-finals and carried his team to PL victory. Kid shouldn't even be in the top 10 anymore right?
I put him #3. Lots of lesser players did well in Proleague (Trap went undefeated for STX in the playsoffs) and lots of lesser players did well in WCG, but that pales in comparison to a 4-0 sweep of the consensus #1 player in the Ro4 of the OSL for individual rankings.
Yeah, but did Trap do well in WCS + SPL + WCG? No.
Sure, each tourney by itself may be easy, in your eyes. But surely preparing for all of them at once and doing well is not.
Overall good top, maybe i would put maru in a lower position and well.. Soulkey not qualifying to WCS2finals should throw him out from top3. I guess Taeja or Bomber should be pos 3.
I strongly advise the ones saying that SK doesn't deserve top 3 to watch his latest impressive ZvT games (G1 in OSL against Bogus as well as their PL final match), he's clearly at least half a genius.
On August 09 2013 16:46 DustbinBieber wrote: I strongly advise the ones saying that SK doesn't deserve top 3 to watch his latest impressive ZvT games (G1 in OSL against Bogus as well as their PL final match), he's clearly at least half a genius.
Would have still put Flash in the top 10.
And this genius lost to supernova, which I wouldn't rank highest level tvzer. In July, soulkey didn't win any top 10 player at all. Again He is the best Zerg in the world. It's just no Zerg deserve top 5 since they all chokes against top tier Terran.
Jaedong not even mentioned? :/ He has been awsome lately! He might not be dominant (yet) but I think I did much better than other players and seems to be not weak as before in JvP. If not in the top 10 he should at least be mentioned don't you agree?
On August 09 2013 16:46 DustbinBieber wrote: I strongly advise the ones saying that SK doesn't deserve top 3 to watch his latest impressive ZvT games (G1 in OSL against Bogus as well as their PL final match), he's clearly at least half a genius.
Would have still put Flash in the top 10.
And this genius lost to supernova, which I wouldn't rank highest level tvzer. In July, soulkey didn't win any top 10 player at all. Again He is the best Zerg in the world. It's just no Zerg deserve top 5 since they all chokes against top tier Terran.
SuperNova is very easy to lose to because of his style. Also I'd argue that very high tier TvZ is overall slightly T favored these days (chiefly due to Bogus but well...)
On August 09 2013 15:39 RKC wrote: Beating the World No. 1 doesn't automatically make you the World No. 1.
Then again, I suppose that's the mentality that make the Scots think they're World Champions when they beat England shortly after the latter winning the World Cup in '66.
Imagine if A beats B but can't beat C to Z, B beats C to Z but not A. Is A the bonjwa alphabet? No.
Okay, fine, A may beat C-M. But B beating C-Z is still better.
well, but previously Innovation was such an easy pick for #1 because he was arguably the best TvZ, TvT and TvP player around. He now got destroyed in 2 TvTs (Bomber and Maru), and a lot of Terrans have caught up to his TvZ. And we have seen little of his TvP this month. It may not be enough to dethrone him, yet, the situation for him is getting quite dire.
I like this power rank, glad to see Flash finally getting punished for his actual gameplay and results instead of getting a somewhat undeserved high PR based purely on proleague and hype.
On August 09 2013 19:30 Kasaraki wrote: I like this power rank, glad to see Flash finally getting punished for his actual gameplay and results instead of getting a somewhat undeserved high PR based purely on proleague and hype.
yeah, cause losing 4 games to innovation and bomber is much more meaningful than maintaining his #1 ranking in proleague in the course of an entire season. i agree with you
however, this is august power ranking and flash didn't really have enough chances to show results so it's understandable, kind of
On August 09 2013 15:39 RKC wrote: Beating the World No. 1 doesn't automatically make you the World No. 1.
Then again, I suppose that's the mentality that make the Scots think they're World Champions when they beat England shortly after the latter winning the World Cup in '66.
Imagine if A beats B but can't beat C to Z, B beats C to Z but not A. Is A the bonjwa alphabet? No.
Okay, fine, A may beat C-M. But B beating C-Z is still better.
well, but previously Innovation was such an easy pick for #1 because he was arguably the best TvZ, TvT and TvP player around. He now got destroyed in 2 TvTs (Bomber and Maru), and a lot of Terrans have caught up to his TvZ. And we have seen little of his TvP this month. It may not be enough to dethrone him, yet, the situation for him is getting quite dire.
Yes, agreed. Inno is still No. 1, but only barely. In June, he was miles ahead of everyone. In July, his lead has been cut down tremendously. Nevertheless, he's still up there - for now.
I think May's PR was even more controversial - SK beating Inno in WCS Korea, yet can't dethrone Inno in PR. Certainly SK back then had a greater claim to No. 1 than Maru now.
Maru or Rain winning tomorrow will be a big lift for himself. Then again, there's still the WCS Global Finals (does it all take place in August?), which gives Inno and others the chance to catch up.
Maybe you could argue for Innovation as n1 but in all honestly it is mostly because no one else is ready to take his spot rather then him holding on to it. Both Bomber and Maru made Innovation look at best decent in the match up and I would even go as far to say that Innovation need to get lucky to win the season finals.
On August 09 2013 14:59 Rhaegal wrote: So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee?
Of course it does. But if I am not mistaken, Innovation got a single win over Soulkey in the Proleague final. So Innovation was favored and won a match he should have. Great.
But Maru 4-0ed the consensus #1 and made it look it easy.
Big difference in terms of achievements there. One is expected, the other is downright shocking. And the WCG qualifiers are what tanked his Aligulac rating compared to Maru. Sure he picked up a bunch of wins, but the opponents were suspect.
Yea, those qualifiers that Maru got 2-0'd in in the first round by someone with 1295 elo.
And you ignore Innovations other proleague victories in July.. like vs Rain or Fantasy?
Writers would look like idiots if they made Maru #1. Innovation is the best player in the world, losing 1 series doesn't change that.
In my mind, the most important match they both played last month individually was the OSL Ro4 match. It was also a best of seven and the best chance to showcase their skills. Maru won that match 4-0.
Proleague is important, and Innovation performed well, but it was a Bo1 format. The WCG qualifiers are great too, but none of that is as important as a best of seven for these individual rankings.
That is my opinion, if you think Proleague is more important, that is fine. I think a Bo1 format is terrible, and while him beating Fantasy, Rain and Soulkey are good, his wins against Crazy and Hitman, while still good, aren't that impressive due to their rankings, and his lost to Best isn't good.
In other words, he performed well enough in Proleague to easily keep his ranking if that was the premier tournament to showcase his individual skills. But it isn't. The OSL is.
Let me put it this way, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team in the world right now after winning Proleague? If not, then why would you argue that Maru or Rain isn't the best player as they are about to win an WCS/OSL?
WJS is the best team in PL. Not sure about best in the world though cause IM is pretty strong. Again, Innovation's TvZ and TvP is far more impressive than Maru's. In TvT the hellbat nerf took away Innovation's best weapon so I say give him time to adapt. No one can deny that Maru was the better player in that series, but overall, it is a different story.
Care to explain why WJS is the best team in SPL? STX did actually perform better in the last three rounds of SPL, and they did go 5-0 in the playoffs to win. I would agree WJS was by far the strongest in WoL, but HotS changed some of the rankings IMO.
He also argues that Innovation is better than Maru...
Some people can't see past their own bias.
I can't believe no one called this guy out for his own bias yet. It's making my head hurt.
It's anti-innovation bias. No matter how you put it, I am completely bamboozled, and in your own words "literally disgusted" (as opposed to what? figuratively disgusted?) at how badly you want to renounce innovation's no.1, just because he got "smashed" (you use this word 5-10 times in this thread) in one series that wasn't even close.
You wanna know what else is in the criteria for ranking, besides recent results? They're right at the top of the article
Difficulty of opponents: Let's put it this way: if the PR existed last year, we probably wouldn't have given PartinG the #1 spot for his BWC run. Quality of play: How impressed were we with this player's performance, especially over the last month? Summary, not a predictor: The PR is a rating based on previous results, not a scouting report for who will do well in the future. We can't believe this is not completely obvious.
As others have said before, Innovation has faced Rain, Soulkey and many others, coming on top, while Maru is not yet tested against these guys. He also spent the month leading his team to the finals of the proleague, which you "disgustingly" disregard as just a "team game". Now for quality of play. Maru used cheese. Not taking away anything from cheese, but really, it was cheese. The cheese paid off. Now look at how Innovation played all of his other games. Strong, jaw-dropingly powerful macro games. Not losing a macro PvT in 4 months. Does being 50% at a matchup, a mirror even (most easily cheesable matchup for all 3 races) while being 89% at TvZ and 70+% at TvP make you better than the guy who smartly cheesed you out of a semifinal? I think not.
I am not even Innovation biased, since I exclusively support Protoss players. I even like Maru, and half of me wants him to win the OSL final to get the title of Optimus Prime. I just seriously have no idea how your logic of valuing head-to-head so highly over overall performance works. Then again, if it's your opinion, then I accept your opinion; however you should also accept the opinion of the TL writers, instead of denouncing it as "innovation bias".
On August 09 2013 20:24 boxerfred wrote: So sOs won over flash, whoa. That justifies him to be in the top10? and his "solid" appearance vs. lesser opponents? pfff
Well, they're comparable in SPL stats (slight advantage to Flash there), Flash made it a little further than sOs but still wasn't so hot in the OSL, and both stomped their way back into code S after falling out.
BUT, there is a bit of weight also given to past results in HotS and sOs kills Flash there. Flash still doesn't even have a first place to his name in sc2 yet, nor has he gone past a ro16. sOs won something, almost made the finals in WCS season 1, and DID make the finals of the following regional.
seems like the power rank writers really jumped onto the innovation hype train. He lost 0-4 vs Maru and defeated two very much lesser KT players in proleague.
#2 Flash (+2), a champion of MLG, Dreamhack, GSL, Asus ROG and Mauritania Cup this month.
#1 Innovation. (+- 0, same as in previous PR). Yes, he lost almost every official game he played this month, but mostly due to small mistakes in the end. Every game it looked like he played in such a dominating fashion, if not those small mistakes by the end. Also did you know he qualified for Major Extreme Hwaiting (MEH) tournament with 2:1 over QueenE? Only dropping a game to cheese?
On August 09 2013 14:59 Rhaegal wrote: So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee?
Of course it does. But if I am not mistaken, Innovation got a single win over Soulkey in the Proleague final. So Innovation was favored and won a match he should have. Great.
But Maru 4-0ed the consensus #1 and made it look it easy.
Big difference in terms of achievements there. One is expected, the other is downright shocking. And the WCG qualifiers are what tanked his Aligulac rating compared to Maru. Sure he picked up a bunch of wins, but the opponents were suspect.
Yea, those qualifiers that Maru got 2-0'd in in the first round by someone with 1295 elo.
And you ignore Innovations other proleague victories in July.. like vs Rain or Fantasy?
Writers would look like idiots if they made Maru #1. Innovation is the best player in the world, losing 1 series doesn't change that.
In my mind, the most important match they both played last month individually was the OSL Ro4 match. It was also a best of seven and the best chance to showcase their skills. Maru won that match 4-0.
Proleague is important, and Innovation performed well, but it was a Bo1 format. The WCG qualifiers are great too, but none of that is as important as a best of seven for these individual rankings.
That is my opinion, if you think Proleague is more important, that is fine. I think a Bo1 format is terrible, and while him beating Fantasy, Rain and Soulkey are good, his wins against Crazy and Hitman, while still good, aren't that impressive due to their rankings, and his lost to Best isn't good.
In other words, he performed well enough in Proleague to easily keep his ranking if that was the premier tournament to showcase his individual skills. But it isn't. The OSL is.
Let me put it this way, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team in the world right now after winning Proleague? If not, then why would you argue that Maru or Rain isn't the best player as they are about to win an WCS/OSL?
Not only did Inno beat all opposition in the SPL playoffs, he also won the ace matches against SKT when both matches were tied 3-3. That's clutch.
Yes, STX is the best team in SPL. But Inno had a lot to do with it. He's like Messi of Barcelona, Ronaldo of Real Madrid. True, it's still down to the team, but contributing 20%-30%, which is how I rate Inno's contribution to STX, is a great feat for any player.
Anyway, the issue seems to boil down to the significance of SPL. We can all agree to disagree on this. Maybe it's my BW background, but I regard SPL highly (as do the Kespa teams and players themselves).
Frankly, I just find it disgusting and disrespectful to Maru that people would say "Hey great work, you smashed Innovation the best player in the world, your now #4!" and say to Innovation "Hey good try, no worries bud you're still #1!" No other Power Rank in any other sport works like this. The Patriots were ranked #1 after they upset the Rams in 2001, despite the Rams being heavily favored and having recently won another Superbowl.
It wasn't like their game was a group stage game, there was 4 players left, and both of these guys went through incredible competition, and to say that somehow Innovation is better is to completely ignore the results of a best of seven series. Sweet he won a bunch of SPL matches and did well in WCG... seriously that is great, but a lot of other, lesser players did the same thing in July. Those results in SPL and WCG aren't enough alone to keep someone at #1, especially when they drop a huge series 0-4 against an opponent they were favored, and end the month going a mediocre 7-6 in the OSL.
Trap performed better in the playoffs for STX statistically he never dropped a game. Innovation dropped a game to BeSt.
Finally, I'd like to say, that Innovation can't have it both ways. You can't say "Innovation is better than Maru because of his SPL wins, and his OSL loss is excusable because of his SPL wins." He can't both get an excuse for his OSL loss because he was preparing for SPL, but then get all this credit for wins in SPL. It is one or the other.
The fact Innovation split his time is his own fault, and if it negatively affects his play, than that is his problem. This is also why a ton of games and big win percentage shouldn't be the be all end all for the Power Rank.
The entire game isn't TvT, and no, no it isn't his fault, and yes, it should be taken into account. Performing well, over a range of tournaments and stuff, over a range of time, in different matchups... that's what makes someone no. 1
Innovation may have dropped a game against BeSt, but Maru lost a Bo3 to zest 0-2 (Inno is also coming up against zest soon, in the WCG qualifiers, so we shall see...)
On August 09 2013 14:59 Rhaegal wrote: So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee?
Of course it does. But if I am not mistaken, Innovation got a single win over Soulkey in the Proleague final. So Innovation was favored and won a match he should have. Great.
But Maru 4-0ed the consensus #1 and made it look it easy.
Big difference in terms of achievements there. One is expected, the other is downright shocking. And the WCG qualifiers are what tanked his Aligulac rating compared to Maru. Sure he picked up a bunch of wins, but the opponents were suspect.
Yea, those qualifiers that Maru got 2-0'd in in the first round by someone with 1295 elo.
And you ignore Innovations other proleague victories in July.. like vs Rain or Fantasy?
Writers would look like idiots if they made Maru #1. Innovation is the best player in the world, losing 1 series doesn't change that.
In my mind, the most important match they both played last month individually was the OSL Ro4 match. It was also a best of seven and the best chance to showcase their skills. Maru won that match 4-0.
Proleague is important, and Innovation performed well, but it was a Bo1 format. The WCG qualifiers are great too, but none of that is as important as a best of seven for these individual rankings.
That is my opinion, if you think Proleague is more important, that is fine. I think a Bo1 format is terrible, and while him beating Fantasy, Rain and Soulkey are good, his wins against Crazy and Hitman, while still good, aren't that impressive due to their rankings, and his lost to Best isn't good.
In other words, he performed well enough in Proleague to easily keep his ranking if that was the premier tournament to showcase his individual skills. But it isn't. The OSL is.
Let me put it this way, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team in the world right now after winning Proleague? If not, then why would you argue that Maru or Rain isn't the best player as they are about to win an WCS/OSL?
Not only did Inno beat all opposition in the SPL playoffs, he also won the ace matches against SKT when both matches were tied 3-3. That's clutch.
Yes, STX is the best team in SPL. But Inno had a lot to do with it. He's like Messi of Barcelona, Ronaldo of Real Madrid. True, it's still down to the team, but contributing 20%-30%, which is how I rate Inno's contribution to STX, is a great feat for any player.
Anyway, the issue seems to boil down to the significance of SPL. We can all agree to disagree on this. Maybe it's my BW background, but I regard SPL highly (as do the Kespa teams and players themselves).
Frankly, I just find it disgusting and disrespectful to Maru that people would say "Hey great work, you smashed Innovation the best player in the world, your now #4!" and say to Innovation "Hey good try, no worries bud you're still #1!" No other Power Rank in any other sport works like this. The Patriots were ranked #1 after they upset the Rams in 2001, despite the Rams being heavily favored and having recently won another Superbowl.
It wasn't like their game was a group stage game, there was 4 players left, and both of these guys went through incredible competition, and to say that somehow Innovation is better is to completely ignore the results of a best of seven series. Sweet he won a bunch of SPL matches and did well in WCG... seriously that is great, but a lot of other, lesser players did the same thing in July. Those results in SPL and WCG aren't enough alone to keep someone at #1, especially when they drop a huge series 0-4 against an opponent they were favored, and end the month going a mediocre 7-6 in the OSL.
Trap performed better in the playoffs for STX statistically he never dropped a game. Innovation dropped a game to BeSt.
Finally, I'd like to say, that Innovation can't have it both ways. You can't say "Innovation is better than Maru because of his SPL wins, and his OSL loss is excusable because of his SPL wins." He can't both get an excuse for his OSL loss because he was preparing for SPL, but then get all this credit for wins in SPL. It is one or the other.
The fact Innovation split his time is his own fault, and if it negatively affects his play, than that is his problem. This is also why a ton of games and big win percentage shouldn't be the be all end all for the Power Rank.
The entire game isn't TvT, and no, no it isn't his fault, and yes, it should be taken into account. Performing well, over a range of tournaments and stuff, over a range of time, in different matchups... that's what makes someone no. 1
Innovation may have dropped a game against BeSt, but Maru lost a Bo3 to zest 0-2 (Inno is also coming up against zest soon, in the WCG qualifiers, so we shall see...)
And to add to this ^
Even if Maru and Innovation performed similarly well this month, did you just forget every month that came before? Innovation got 2nd at WCS KR Season 1, won Season finals, won every game but one in PL, 3rd/4th at WCS KR Season 2, still in WCG KR, compared to Maru who will "only" be 1st or 2nd at WCS KR. This is an incredible accomplishment, but just look back at the old BW Power Ranks. Maru wasn't even a CBNC in the power rank before this one, yet you immediately want him to be #1 this month? As far as I know this has never happened. Even more extreme: Flash was first & Jaedong second before an MSL final which Jaedong won 3-1 in January 2010, and STILL Flash was #1 based on his play. Soulkey also beat Innovation 4-3 while playing pretty amazing for a while and even then he was only #2.
Doing very well in 1 (and only one) tournament so far this year isn't enough to justify him being the best player of the world when people like Soulkey, Innovation & Rain have been performing and playing well for a while now. Also, let's look at Aligulac:
Maru: 15-8 Soulkey: 15-8 (but had a much higher rank coming into this) Rain: 21-13 Innovation: 29-11
The only one whose win/lose ratio is worse is Rain, the other OSL-finalist also coming in with a way higher ranking. The ranking is volatile enough as it is (Flash crashing out after being #4 for losing to Innovation & Bomber), and now you want to give #1 for winning ONE boX against Innovation to someone who wasn't even in there last time? It's not disrespectful, it's giving credit for general consistency where it's due which Maru still has to build up.
If he wins WCS KR and the season finals, I'm happy with him being #1.
Barring a complete collapse of either Maru or Rain in the finals, I think that most people here would be forced to concede that the winner deserves the #1 spot over Innovation.
On August 09 2013 19:30 Kasaraki wrote: I like this power rank, glad to see Flash finally getting punished for his actual gameplay and results instead of getting a somewhat undeserved high PR based purely on proleague and hype.
yeah, cause losing 4 games to innovation and bomber is much more meaningful than maintaining his #1 ranking in proleague in the course of an entire season. i agree with you
however, this is august power ranking and flash didn't really have enough chances to show results so it's understandable, kind of
On August 10 2013 05:01 LittleRedBoy wrote: Barring a complete collapse of either Maru or Rain in the finals, I think that most people here would be forced to concede that the winner deserves the #1 spot over Innovation.
Why would someone deserve #1 spot in July for a result that happens in mid August? O_o
Innovation is still the number 1 IMO. He's still the most consistent performer out there and probably the strongest player. Apart from his series planning which is atrocious :/
On August 10 2013 05:01 LittleRedBoy wrote: Barring a complete collapse of either Maru or Rain in the finals, I think that most people here would be forced to concede that the winner deserves the #1 spot over Innovation.
Why would someone deserve #1 spot in July for a result that happens in mid August? O_o
I don't mean that they alter the power rank after they've already done it; I mean that if they were to do a power rank right after the finals that Innovation wouldn't be ranked #1.
On August 10 2013 06:01 GumBa wrote: Innovation is still the number 1 IMO. He's still the most consistent performer out there and probably the strongest player. Apart from his series planning which is atrocious :/
His series planning and his ability to react on the spot I feel. If he could merge his superb mechanics with MVP's wits, it would be the perfect player.
On August 09 2013 23:43 Sejanus wrote: -- power rank 2 years from now --
#2 Flash (+2), a champion of MLG, Dreamhack, GSL, Asus ROG and Mauritania Cup this month.
#1 Innovation. (+- 0, same as in previous PR). Yes, he lost almost every official game he played this month, but mostly due to small mistakes in the end. Every game it looked like he played in such a dominating fashion, if not those small mistakes by the end. Also did you know he qualified for Major Extreme Hwaiting (MEH) tournament with 2:1 over QueenE? Only dropping a game to cheese?
On August 10 2013 05:01 LittleRedBoy wrote: Barring a complete collapse of either Maru or Rain in the finals, I think that most people here would be forced to concede that the winner deserves the #1 spot over Innovation.
I'm not sure. People have to remember, Innovation has always seemed a bit shaky in TVT. HOWEVER, he still seems unbeatable in tvp and tvz, i'm not sure hes going to lose his #1 spot unless that happens or he only plays TVT's.
On August 10 2013 06:01 GumBa wrote: Innovation is still the number 1 IMO. He's still the most consistent performer out there and probably the strongest player. Apart from his series planning which is atrocious :/
His series planning and his ability to react on the spot I feel. If he could merge his superb mechanics with MVP's wits, it would be the perfect player.
Yep he just isn't very creative and flexible sad really
On August 09 2013 14:59 Rhaegal wrote: So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee?
Of course it does. But if I am not mistaken, Innovation got a single win over Soulkey in the Proleague final. So Innovation was favored and won a match he should have. Great.
But Maru 4-0ed the consensus #1 and made it look it easy.
Big difference in terms of achievements there. One is expected, the other is downright shocking. And the WCG qualifiers are what tanked his Aligulac rating compared to Maru. Sure he picked up a bunch of wins, but the opponents were suspect.
Yea, those qualifiers that Maru got 2-0'd in in the first round by someone with 1295 elo.
And you ignore Innovations other proleague victories in July.. like vs Rain or Fantasy?
Writers would look like idiots if they made Maru #1. Innovation is the best player in the world, losing 1 series doesn't change that.
In my mind, the most important match they both played last month individually was the OSL Ro4 match. It was also a best of seven and the best chance to showcase their skills. Maru won that match 4-0.
Proleague is important, and Innovation performed well, but it was a Bo1 format. The WCG qualifiers are great too, but none of that is as important as a best of seven for these individual rankings.
That is my opinion, if you think Proleague is more important, that is fine. I think a Bo1 format is terrible, and while him beating Fantasy, Rain and Soulkey are good, his wins against Crazy and Hitman, while still good, aren't that impressive due to their rankings, and his lost to Best isn't good.
In other words, he performed well enough in Proleague to easily keep his ranking if that was the premier tournament to showcase his individual skills. But it isn't. The OSL is.
Let me put it this way, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team in the world right now after winning Proleague? If not, then why would you argue that Maru or Rain isn't the best player as they are about to win an WCS/OSL?
WJS is the best team in PL. Not sure about best in the world though cause IM is pretty strong. Again, Innovation's TvZ and TvP is far more impressive than Maru's. In TvT the hellbat nerf took away Innovation's best weapon so I say give him time to adapt. No one can deny that Maru was the better player in that series, but overall, it is a different story.
Care to explain why WJS is the best team in SPL? STX did actually perform better in the last three rounds of SPL, and they did go 5-0 in the playoffs to win. I would agree WJS was by far the strongest in WoL, but HotS changed some of the rankings IMO.
He also argues that Innovation is better than Maru...
Some people can't see past their own bias.
When not a single person agrees with you, maybe you should rethink your opinions. Or at least stop arguing them. It's arguable that Rain should be #1, but no one else in this thread thinks for a second that #1 would be Maru.
You also forget Innovation vs Maru was directly after the Hellbat nerf, which Innovation was using in ~75% of his TvT games. It's not that simple to change your play with such a massive metagame shift in a single week. In a month Maru will never beat Innovation in a BO7 in his lifetime again.
On August 10 2013 18:02 Torra wrote: Innovation is still clearly the best player in the world, I don't know why people question him getting #1 again.
Um, Maru just beat #1 and #2 by a combined score of 8-2 and you still think Innovation is "clearly the best player in the world?" What world are you living on exactly?
On August 10 2013 18:02 Torra wrote: Innovation is still clearly the best player in the world, I don't know why people question him getting #1 again.
Um, Maru just beat #1 and #2 by a combined score of 8-2 and you still think Innovation is "clearly the best player in the world?" What world are you living on exactly?
I'd definitely not jump the gun and peg Maru above Innovation. We'll see after the Season Finals since Innovation, Rain, and Bomber will all be there.
On August 10 2013 18:02 Torra wrote: Innovation is still clearly the best player in the world, I don't know why people question him getting #1 again.
Um, Maru just beat #1 and #2 by a combined score of 8-2 and you still think Innovation is "clearly the best player in the world?" What world are you living on exactly?
Games weren't exactly the highest quality. Maru stomped 8 one-sided games where his opponent's appeared to fall below the level we'd expect them to play at. That doesn't mean Maru doesn't deserve his wins, it just means we know he's good but he hasn't been given the real challenge yet to settle all doubt. "insufficient data."
On August 10 2013 18:02 Torra wrote: Innovation is still clearly the best player in the world, I don't know why people question him getting #1 again.
Um, Maru just beat #1 and #2 by a combined score of 8-2 and you still think Innovation is "clearly the best player in the world?" What world are you living on exactly?
Games weren't exactly the highest quality. Maru stomped 8 one-sided games where his opponent's appeared to fall below the level we'd expect them to play at. That doesn't mean Maru doesn't deserve his wins, it just means we know he's good but he hasn't been given the real challenge yet to settle all doubt. "insufficient data."
Innovation won the S1 Finals based off sOs choking before he even stepped in the booth.
On August 10 2013 18:02 Torra wrote: Innovation is still clearly the best player in the world, I don't know why people question him getting #1 again.
Um, Maru just beat #1 and #2 by a combined score of 8-2 and you still think Innovation is "clearly the best player in the world?" What world are you living on exactly?
Games weren't exactly the highest quality. Maru stomped 8 one-sided games where his opponent's appeared to fall below the level we'd expect them to play at. That doesn't mean Maru doesn't deserve his wins, it just means we know he's good but he hasn't been given the real challenge yet to settle all doubt. "insufficient data."
Ever wonder why the "firsr, second" players in the world would choke facing Maru? Maybe it's because Maru is simply better? Of course ManU looks dominate in Supreme League, but they still got stormed out of Champion league coz they are facing a different level of opponents.
On August 10 2013 18:02 Torra wrote: Innovation is still clearly the best player in the world, I don't know why people question him getting #1 again.
Um, Maru just beat #1 and #2 by a combined score of 8-2 and you still think Innovation is "clearly the best player in the world?" What world are you living on exactly?
Games weren't exactly the highest quality. Maru stomped 8 one-sided games where his opponent's appeared to fall below the level we'd expect them to play at. That doesn't mean Maru doesn't deserve his wins, it just means we know he's good but he hasn't been given the real challenge yet to settle all doubt. "insufficient data."
Innovation won the S1 Finals based off sOs choking before he even stepped in the booth.
I'm sure you could add a lot of finals to the list. Innovation vs Soulkey Squirtle vs Mvp Seed vs Byun Last vs DRG / Last vs MC Those are a few that come to my head.
The winner in starcraft is often about the guy who doesn't choke at the key moment. In fact I think a lot of players can mechanically play at the top. But the top is reserved for more than mechanics.
On August 10 2013 18:02 Torra wrote: Innovation is still clearly the best player in the world, I don't know why people question him getting #1 again.
Um, Maru just beat #1 and #2 by a combined score of 8-2 and you still think Innovation is "clearly the best player in the world?" What world are you living on exactly?
Games weren't exactly the highest quality. Maru stomped 8 one-sided games where his opponent's appeared to fall below the level we'd expect them to play at. That doesn't mean Maru doesn't deserve his wins, it just means we know he's good but he hasn't been given the real challenge yet to settle all doubt. "insufficient data."
Ever wonder why the "firsr, second" players in the world would choke facing Maru? Maybe it's because Maru is simply better? Of course ManU looks dominate in Supreme League, but they still got stormed out of Champion league coz they are facing a different level of opponents.
Because when you look at the games they weren't high quality lol. If Maru's nerves didn't get him in G1 with the monumental misread of Rain's ultra conservative late third I'm pretty sure Rain would have been 4-0'ed. Maru was just way better tonight with nothing but solid standard play -- ironically.
On August 10 2013 18:02 Torra wrote: Innovation is still clearly the best player in the world, I don't know why people question him getting #1 again.
Um, Maru just beat #1 and #2 by a combined score of 8-2 and you still think Innovation is "clearly the best player in the world?" What world are you living on exactly?
Games weren't exactly the highest quality. Maru stomped 8 one-sided games where his opponent's appeared to fall below the level we'd expect them to play at. That doesn't mean Maru doesn't deserve his wins, it just means we know he's good but he hasn't been given the real challenge yet to settle all doubt. "insufficient data."
Ever wonder why the "firsr, second" players in the world would choke facing Maru? Maybe it's because Maru is simply better? Of course ManU looks dominate in Supreme League, but they still got stormed out of Champion league coz they are facing a different level of opponents.
Because when you look at the games they weren't high quality lol. If Maru's nerves didn't get him in G1 with the monumental misread of Rain's ultra conservative late third I'm pretty sure Rain would have been 4-0'ed. Maru was just way better tonight with nothing but solid standard play -- ironically.
i guess what i am trying to say is that the quality of play sometimes depends on opponents.
On August 10 2013 18:02 Torra wrote: Innovation is still clearly the best player in the world, I don't know why people question him getting #1 again.
Um, Maru just beat #1 and #2 by a combined score of 8-2 and you still think Innovation is "clearly the best player in the world?" What world are you living on exactly?
Games weren't exactly the highest quality. Maru stomped 8 one-sided games where his opponent's appeared to fall below the level we'd expect them to play at. That doesn't mean Maru doesn't deserve his wins, it just means we know he's good but he hasn't been given the real challenge yet to settle all doubt. "insufficient data."
Ever wonder why the "firsr, second" players in the world would choke facing Maru? Maybe it's because Maru is simply better? Of course ManU looks dominate in Supreme League, but they still got stormed out of Champion league coz they are facing a different level of opponents.
Because when you look at the games they weren't high quality lol. If Maru's nerves didn't get him in G1 with the monumental misread of Rain's ultra conservative late third I'm pretty sure Rain would have been 4-0'ed. Maru was just way better tonight with nothing but solid standard play -- ironically.
i guess what i am trying to say is that the quality of play sometimes depends on opponents.
On August 10 2013 20:06 Fionn wrote: thing is none of these regional finals matter cause we're just going to use the seasonal finals to determine who goes where.
watch innovation just 4-0 in the finals again.
Watch as Bogus never wins Korea, but continually win seasons/blizzcon finals like crazy.
On August 10 2013 20:06 Fionn wrote: thing is none of these regional finals matter cause we're just going to use the seasonal finals to determine who goes where.
watch innovation just 4-0 in the finals again.
Watch as Bogus never wins Korea, but continually win seasons/blizzcon finals like crazy.
INnoVation is the only player from Season 1 Finals to requalify (for S2 Finals) so far. aLive is the other player that can join him.
He became #1 when he defeated Innovation and had a solid July. He defended it when he defeated the #2. There is no doubt who the best play SC2 player on the planet is.
It is Maru, the man who just won the most difficult individual tournament in the world. At tournament which both Innovation and Rain played in! And he defeated them both, the Power Rank #1 and #2 on his way to victory!
On August 10 2013 20:06 Fionn wrote: thing is none of these regional finals matter cause we're just going to use the seasonal finals to determine who goes where.
watch innovation just 4-0 in the finals again.
No bias from the TL writers huh?
Honestly, you guys shouldn't do a Power Rank with this kind of bias.
You can't possibly be unbiased when you're already calling the score of the finals 4-0 in favor of Innovation, and telling us that Maru's achievement don't matter. This is why that WCG qualifier performance and a few best of one wins in Proleague for Innovation overcame Maru's stomp into the OSL Finals over Symbol and a 4-0 Innovation huh? Just go ahead his discount his achievements... Why slap Maru in the face like that?
You don't automatically become the #1 player in the world by winning one tournament. Is Maru underappreciated? Yes. But can we definitively say he is the best player in the world right now? I don't think so.
That's consistency. On top of that he carried his team to a PL victory and was the second winningest player across the PL season. If Maru can show results like that over his next few tournaments then maybe he does deserve the #1 spot, but it's too early to call at this stage. We need to see what happens at the global finals before making any judgment imo.
On August 11 2013 01:17 FuRong wrote: You don't automatically become the #1 player in the world by winning one tournament. Is Maru underappreciated? Yes. But can we definitively say he is the best player in the world right now? I don't think so.
That's consistency. On top of that he carried his team to a PL victory and was the second winningest player across the PL season. If Maru can show results like that over his next few tournaments then maybe he does deserve the #1 spot, but it's too early to call at this stage. We need to see what happens at the global finals before making any judgment imo.
While that is true the opposite is there as well. People tend to cling to some players a bit too much cause of previous results and whenever he is loosing say "yea but he did x and y so he is still the best". Flash is one of the main targets for this although it gets more realistic.
The problem lies in how the title of "best player in the world" is defined. Some people say its over a longer period of time, others say it matters only at the current time. Neither is right or wrong, just a difference in definition.
Well now I think Maru's the current #1. But next month's ranking really all depends on the Season Finals. If Innovation wins, or knocks out Maru, he's probably number one.If Maru gets to the semis I'd say he could probably retain #1. If Rain wins and beats a bunch of top players, he's number one.
Edit: Bronze, you have literally called half this thread out on bias. It's clear you're a Maru fanboy, you're the biased one.
On August 10 2013 20:06 Fionn wrote: thing is none of these regional finals matter cause we're just going to use the seasonal finals to determine who goes where.
watch innovation just 4-0 in the finals again.
No bias from the TL writers huh?
Honestly, you guys shouldn't do a Power Rank with this kind of bias.
You can't possibly be unbiased when you're already calling the score of the finals 4-0 in favor of Innovation, and telling us that Maru's achievement don't matter. This is why that WCG qualifier performance and a few best of one wins in Proleague for Innovation overcame Maru's stomp into the OSL Finals over Symbol and a 4-0 Innovation huh? Just go ahead his discount his achievements... Why slap Maru in the face like that?
Fionn is the biggest Prime fanboy on this webpage...
On August 11 2013 02:27 blobrus wrote: Well now I think Maru's the current #1. But next month's ranking really all depends on the Season Finals. If Innovation wins, or knocks out Maru, he's probably number one.If Maru gets to the semis I'd say he could probably retain #1. If Rain wins and beats a bunch of top players, he's number one.
nah, Maru still hasn't shown completely dominating, amazing and outstanding games like Soulkey and Inno showed before... Even Rain, but that was a long time ago.
On August 10 2013 23:01 BronzeKnee wrote: A lot of you owe Maru an apology.
He became #1 when he defeated Innovation and had a solid July. He defended it when he defeated the #2. There is no doubt who the best play SC2 player on the planet is.
It is Maru, the man who just won the most difficult individual tournament in the world. At tournament which both Innovation and Rain played in! And he defeated them both, the Power Rank #1 and #2 on his way to victory!
On August 10 2013 20:06 Fionn wrote: thing is none of these regional finals matter cause we're just going to use the seasonal finals to determine who goes where.
watch innovation just 4-0 in the finals again.
No bias from the TL writers huh?
Honestly, you guys shouldn't do a Power Rank with this kind of bias.
You can't possibly be unbiased when you're already calling the score of the finals 4-0 in favor of Innovation, and telling us that Maru's achievement don't matter. This is why that WCG qualifier performance and a few best of one wins in Proleague for Innovation overcame Maru's stomp into the OSL Finals over Symbol and a 4-0 Innovation huh? Just go ahead his discount his achievements... Why slap Maru in the face like that?
lol, way to completely misinterpret Fionn's post in so so many ways.
On August 10 2013 23:01 BronzeKnee wrote: A lot of you owe Maru an apology.
He became #1 when he defeated Innovation and had a solid July. He defended it when he defeated the #2. There is no doubt who the best play SC2 player on the planet is.
It is Maru, the man who just won the most difficult individual tournament in the world. At tournament which both Innovation and Rain played in! And he defeated them both, the Power Rank #1 and #2 on his way to victory!
On August 10 2013 20:06 Fionn wrote: thing is none of these regional finals matter cause we're just going to use the seasonal finals to determine who goes where.
watch innovation just 4-0 in the finals again.
No bias from the TL writers huh?
Honestly, you guys shouldn't do a Power Rank with this kind of bias.
You can't possibly be unbiased when you're already calling the score of the finals 4-0 in favor of Innovation, and telling us that Maru's achievement don't matter. This is why that WCG qualifier performance and a few best of one wins in Proleague for Innovation overcame Maru's stomp into the OSL Finals over Symbol and a 4-0 Innovation huh? Just go ahead his discount his achievements... Why slap Maru in the face like that?
And Innovation still had an even more solid july. These finals don't change that. Jeez you are obsessed.
Oh wait I forgot this was the power rank from July, so the results last night have no bearing on this ranking whatsoever. But yeah TL writers totally biased because they can't read the future.
On August 11 2013 01:17 FuRong wrote: You don't automatically become the #1 player in the world by winning one tournament. Is Maru underappreciated? Yes. But can we definitively say he is the best player in the world right now? I don't think so.
That's consistency. On top of that he carried his team to a PL victory and was the second winningest player across the PL season. If Maru can show results like that over his next few tournaments then maybe he does deserve the #1 spot, but it's too early to call at this stage. We need to see what happens at the global finals before making any judgment imo.
While that is true the opposite is there as well. People tend to cling to some players a bit too much cause of previous results and whenever he is loosing say "yea but he did x and y so he is still the best". Flash is one of the main targets for this although it gets more realistic.
The problem lies in how the title of "best player in the world" is defined. Some people say its over a longer period of time, others say it matters only at the current time. Neither is right or wrong, just a difference in definition.
The point is not who's the best player in the world. It's who is the best player in the world in July. Any it's clearly Maru. I have to with bronze after the final. No doubt.
On August 11 2013 02:43 blobrus wrote: Oh wait I forgot this was the power rank from July, so the results last night have no bearing on this ranking whatsoever. But yeah TL writers totally biased because they can't read the future.
The fact that this rank came out one day before final is already sort of biased. Still, a good power rank after all. Agree with most.
On August 11 2013 02:43 blobrus wrote: Oh wait I forgot this was the power rank from July, so the results last night have no bearing on this ranking whatsoever. But yeah TL writers totally biased because they can't read the future.
The fact that this rank came out one day before final is already sort of biased. Still, a good power rank after all. Agree with most.
Well it already came out late, this is the power rankings for July not August. Innovation was in my, and many others eyes the best in July, tonight's results have absolutely nothing to do with it. Maru is currently the best in August, if they released a rank today I would say he's #1 in the world. But there's also a finals in two weeks.
On August 10 2013 23:01 BronzeKnee wrote: A lot of you owe Maru an apology.
He became #1 when he defeated Innovation and had a solid July. He defended it when he defeated the #2. There is no doubt who the best play SC2 player on the planet is.
It is Maru, the man who just won the most difficult individual tournament in the world. At tournament which both Innovation and Rain played in! And he defeated them both, the Power Rank #1 and #2 on his way to victory!
On August 10 2013 20:06 Fionn wrote: thing is none of these regional finals matter cause we're just going to use the seasonal finals to determine who goes where.
watch innovation just 4-0 in the finals again.
No bias from the TL writers huh?
Honestly, you guys shouldn't do a Power Rank with this kind of bias.
You can't possibly be unbiased when you're already calling the score of the finals 4-0 in favor of Innovation, and telling us that Maru's achievement don't matter. This is why that WCG qualifier performance and a few best of one wins in Proleague for Innovation overcame Maru's stomp into the OSL Finals over Symbol and a 4-0 Innovation huh? Just go ahead his discount his achievements... Why slap Maru in the face like that?
lol, way to completely misinterpret Fionn's post in so so many ways.
On August 10 2013 23:01 BronzeKnee wrote: A lot of you owe Maru an apology.
He became #1 when he defeated Innovation and had a solid July. He defended it when he defeated the #2. There is no doubt who the best play SC2 player on the planet is.
It is Maru, the man who just won the most difficult individual tournament in the world. At tournament which both Innovation and Rain played in! And he defeated them both, the Power Rank #1 and #2 on his way to victory!
On August 10 2013 20:06 Fionn wrote: thing is none of these regional finals matter cause we're just going to use the seasonal finals to determine who goes where.
watch innovation just 4-0 in the finals again.
No bias from the TL writers huh?
Honestly, you guys shouldn't do a Power Rank with this kind of bias.
You can't possibly be unbiased when you're already calling the score of the finals 4-0 in favor of Innovation, and telling us that Maru's achievement don't matter. This is why that WCG qualifier performance and a few best of one wins in Proleague for Innovation overcame Maru's stomp into the OSL Finals over Symbol and a 4-0 Innovation huh? Just go ahead his discount his achievements... Why slap Maru in the face like that?
lol, way to completely misinterpret Fionn's post in so so many ways.
On August 11 2013 02:43 blobrus wrote: Oh wait I forgot this was the power rank from July, so the results last night have no bearing on this ranking whatsoever. But yeah TL writers totally biased because they can't read the future.
The fact that this rank came out one day before final is already sort of biased. Still, a good power rank after all. Agree with most.
Lol, so the ranking for July comes out at the beginning of August and it is biased? Wtf are you smoking?
On August 11 2013 01:17 FuRong wrote: You don't automatically become the #1 player in the world by winning one tournament. Is Maru underappreciated? Yes. But can we definitively say he is the best player in the world right now? I don't think so.
That's consistency. On top of that he carried his team to a PL victory and was the second winningest player across the PL season. If Maru can show results like that over his next few tournaments then maybe he does deserve the #1 spot, but it's too early to call at this stage. We need to see what happens at the global finals before making any judgment imo.
To be fair, the rankings specifically state that the results within that month matter most. So if Maru does will in globals, he should get the top spot.
On August 10 2013 23:01 BronzeKnee wrote: A lot of you owe Maru an apology.
He became #1 when he defeated Innovation and had a solid July. He defended it when he defeated the #2. There is no doubt who the best play SC2 player on the planet is.
It is Maru, the man who just won the most difficult individual tournament in the world. At tournament which both Innovation and Rain played in! And he defeated them both, the Power Rank #1 and #2 on his way to victory!
On August 10 2013 20:06 Fionn wrote: thing is none of these regional finals matter cause we're just going to use the seasonal finals to determine who goes where.
watch innovation just 4-0 in the finals again.
No bias from the TL writers huh?
Honestly, you guys shouldn't do a Power Rank with this kind of bias.
You can't possibly be unbiased when you're already calling the score of the finals 4-0 in favor of Innovation, and telling us that Maru's achievement don't matter. This is why that WCG qualifier performance and a few best of one wins in Proleague for Innovation overcame Maru's stomp into the OSL Finals over Symbol and a 4-0 Innovation huh? Just go ahead his discount his achievements... Why slap Maru in the face like that?
lol, way to completely misinterpret Fionn's post in so so many ways.
How is that Power Rank doing Monk?
pretty good, thanks ^^
I know it doesn't predict, unless you're trying to justify Innovation:
On July 04 2013 04:47 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Think of it this way: you have to bet your life on either Soulkey or Innovation in a bo1 against an arbitrary player. Who would you choose?
On August 10 2013 23:01 BronzeKnee wrote: A lot of you owe Maru an apology.
He became #1 when he defeated Innovation and had a solid July. He defended it when he defeated the #2. There is no doubt who the best play SC2 player on the planet is.
It is Maru, the man who just won the most difficult individual tournament in the world. At tournament which both Innovation and Rain played in! And he defeated them both, the Power Rank #1 and #2 on his way to victory!
On August 10 2013 20:06 Fionn wrote: thing is none of these regional finals matter cause we're just going to use the seasonal finals to determine who goes where.
watch innovation just 4-0 in the finals again.
No bias from the TL writers huh?
Honestly, you guys shouldn't do a Power Rank with this kind of bias.
You can't possibly be unbiased when you're already calling the score of the finals 4-0 in favor of Innovation, and telling us that Maru's achievement don't matter. This is why that WCG qualifier performance and a few best of one wins in Proleague for Innovation overcame Maru's stomp into the OSL Finals over Symbol and a 4-0 Innovation huh? Just go ahead his discount his achievements... Why slap Maru in the face like that?
lol, way to completely misinterpret Fionn's post in so so many ways.
How is that Power Rank doing Monk?
pretty good, thanks ^^
I know it doesn't predict, unless you're trying to justify Innovation:
On July 04 2013 04:47 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Think of it this way: you have to bet your life on either Soulkey or Innovation in a bo1 against an arbitrary player. Who would you choose?
But man...
You really need to figure out the difference between prediction and handicapped odds based on past results.
I agree that Maru is not the absolute best player on planet the best RTS player ever etc etc, but what really annoys me is that people consider Maru as bad and cheesy scrub.
Even though winning Innovation and Rain does not make him best player on planet it should fucking mean something. Give that boy some credit, for gods sake, he destroyed two of the best player (Also he was really close to beat Soulkey too and his worst matchup is TvZ) This kid is crazy good.
Also this makes me giggle a bit: Game 1 - Rain beats Maru who does not yet have ghosts really and is not ready for warp prism drop. = Rain genius Game 4 - Basically same scenario at same time with same amount of economy etc but maru made some defense at his base and made ghosts bit earlier = Really bad move from Rain he gave that game (((
GG Maru have been hoping for him to win championship for really long time! Also great finals in general
On August 11 2013 01:17 FuRong wrote: You don't automatically become the #1 player in the world by winning one tournament. Is Maru underappreciated? Yes. But can we definitively say he is the best player in the world right now? I don't think so.
That's consistency. On top of that he carried his team to a PL victory and was the second winningest player across the PL season. If Maru can show results like that over his next few tournaments then maybe he does deserve the #1 spot, but it's too early to call at this stage. We need to see what happens at the global finals before making any judgment imo.
To be fair, the rankings specifically state that the results within that month matter most. So if Maru does will in globals, he should get the top spot.
yeah this. this ranking is more like a flavor of the month kind of thing rather than a serious attempt to determine the current best player
On August 11 2013 01:17 FuRong wrote: You don't automatically become the #1 player in the world by winning one tournament. Is Maru underappreciated? Yes. But can we definitively say he is the best player in the world right now? I don't think so.
That's consistency. On top of that he carried his team to a PL victory and was the second winningest player across the PL season. If Maru can show results like that over his next few tournaments then maybe he does deserve the #1 spot, but it's too early to call at this stage. We need to see what happens at the global finals before making any judgment imo.
To be fair, the rankings specifically state that the results within that month matter most. So if Maru does will in globals, he should get the top spot.
yeah this. this ranking is more like a flavor of the month kind of thing rather than a serious attempt to determine the current best player
Determining the "best player" in this field, where the skill level is so high that absolute dominance is at best streaky and just as dependent on luck as skill, would take so long that the results would be irrelevant by the time they were produced.
Anyway Maru played amazingly and no one can say he did not deserve to win OSL.
On August 11 2013 01:17 FuRong wrote: You don't automatically become the #1 player in the world by winning one tournament. Is Maru underappreciated? Yes. But can we definitively say he is the best player in the world right now? I don't think so.
That's consistency. On top of that he carried his team to a PL victory and was the second winningest player across the PL season. If Maru can show results like that over his next few tournaments then maybe he does deserve the #1 spot, but it's too early to call at this stage. We need to see what happens at the global finals before making any judgment imo.
To be fair, the rankings specifically state that the results within that month matter most. So if Maru does will in globals, he should get the top spot.
yeah this. this ranking is more like a flavor of the month kind of thing rather than a serious attempt to determine the current best player
Determining the "best player" in this field, where the skill level is so high that absolute dominance is at best streaky and just as dependent on luck as skill, would take so long that the results would be irrelevant by the time they were produced.
Anyway Maru played amazingly and no one can say he did not deserve to win OSL.
by best player, i meant in terms of results within reasonably relevant periods. what i was saying was that this is much more focused on a player's achievements within a month, hence flavor of the month. oh and i'm not out to get maru. i happen to think anyone who wins a championship deserves to win it, regardless of who it is
On August 11 2013 01:17 FuRong wrote: You don't automatically become the #1 player in the world by winning one tournament. Is Maru underappreciated? Yes. But can we definitively say he is the best player in the world right now? I don't think so.
That's consistency. On top of that he carried his team to a PL victory and was the second winningest player across the PL season. If Maru can show results like that over his next few tournaments then maybe he does deserve the #1 spot, but it's too early to call at this stage. We need to see what happens at the global finals before making any judgment imo.
To be fair, the rankings specifically state that the results within that month matter most. So if Maru does will in globals, he should get the top spot.
yeah this. this ranking is more like a flavor of the month kind of thing rather than a serious attempt to determine the current best player
Determining the "best player" in this field, where the skill level is so high that absolute dominance is at best streaky and just as dependent on luck as skill, would take so long that the results would be irrelevant by the time they were produced.
Anyway Maru played amazingly and no one can say he did not deserve to win OSL.
by best player, i meant in terms of results within reasonably relevant periods. what i was saying was that this is much more focused on a player's achievements within a month, hence flavor of the month. oh and i'm not out to get maru. i happen to think anyone who wins a championship deserves to win it, regardless of who it is
Which brings up all the problems people have with ranking players in the first place: unintentionally avoiding players in brackets, getting their tournament runs cut short against top players, winning games despite playing poorly, losing games despite playing fundamentally well, inflation due to crushing clearly inferior opponents, opportunities to go out to tournaments, arguments over time frames, arguments over viability of play in the long run, arguments over the influence of the metagame instead of 'pure skill', etc.
On August 11 2013 01:17 FuRong wrote: You don't automatically become the #1 player in the world by winning one tournament. Is Maru underappreciated? Yes. But can we definitively say he is the best player in the world right now? I don't think so.
That's consistency. On top of that he carried his team to a PL victory and was the second winningest player across the PL season. If Maru can show results like that over his next few tournaments then maybe he does deserve the #1 spot, but it's too early to call at this stage. We need to see what happens at the global finals before making any judgment imo.
To be fair, the rankings specifically state that the results within that month matter most. So if Maru does will in globals, he should get the top spot.
yeah this. this ranking is more like a flavor of the month kind of thing rather than a serious attempt to determine the current best player
Determining the "best player" in this field, where the skill level is so high that absolute dominance is at best streaky and just as dependent on luck as skill, would take so long that the results would be irrelevant by the time they were produced.
Anyway Maru played amazingly and no one can say he did not deserve to win OSL.
by best player, i meant in terms of results within reasonably relevant periods. what i was saying was that this is much more focused on a player's achievements within a month, hence flavor of the month. oh and i'm not out to get maru. i happen to think anyone who wins a championship deserves to win it, regardless of who it is
Which brings up all the problems people have with ranking players in the first place: unintentionally avoiding players in brackets, getting their tournament runs cut short against top players, winning games despite playing poorly, losing games despite playing fundamentally well, inflation due to crushing clearly inferior opponents, opportunities to go out to tournaments, arguments over time frames, arguments over viability of play in the long run, arguments over the influence of the metagame instead of 'pure skill', etc.
a lot of the variables you mentioned are very subjective and don't belong in an objective list. only actual results are of concern to me. trying to make something objective out of subjective elements, you will surely run into problems
lol. innovation only won 1 championship when hellbat was super op and he was abusing it to death or cheese all the time. I just can't understand people calling him the best in the world. If that logic applies, it is absolutely ok for maru to be the best in the world right now. He beat all the top players alone the way this season and he should be #1 in the world and power rank #1.
If innovation should be considered #1 in the world, he's gotta at least win few championships not just 1 championship with patch terran manner. He's good in tvz I give him that but other than that, he's nothing special but patch terran champ. Need prove? As soon as hellbat nerf came, bomber 3-0 him, maru 4-0 him. Bomber didn't even cheese him and still destroyed innovation. Maru 1 based all in him 3 times in a row but that hardly matters coz innovation couldn't adopt at all. That surely doesn't suit #1 in the world. Innovation's tvt was 100% based on cheese or hellbat drop abuse to mech push and with that gone, his seemingly invincible tvt record was bound to fall(though I bet nobody expected his tvt was that bad without hellbat). Innovation should feel lucky that hellbat nerf came after he made it to round of 4. In wings of liberty, inno wasn't even code S round of 8 material and only reason he won season 1 final was most of his important matchese were tvt where he could abuse hellbat drop and cheese to death. If Innovation still plays solid and win another championship, I will consider him as one of the best in the world but as it is now, he's mere patch terran champ in my book.
So there you go. All you people calling Maru garbage, you should have look at innovation's record first. By people who calling innovation #1 in the world's logic, Maru prime is NEW #1 in the world. He beat the best in the world innovation 4-0, so Maru is the #1. There's no excuse for innovation losing 4 games in a row whether he cheesed or not. His tvt was never impressive from the beginning and with hellbat drop gone, he will never be able to win tvt the way he did up till now. I bet flash, mvp etc will have sweet revenge times against innovation if they ever meet him again.
^ it's easy. He is the best in the world, because he lost only 16 out of 69 offline matches in HotS. That makes it 77% winrate. Against Korean only opponents (besides 1 match vs Huk). There is none other, who has such stats.
On August 11 2013 18:56 shin_toss wrote: where's Polt
This was published the morning of August 8th in America... Meaning this was published before his WCS Ro16 group. If he can get a decent placement at the WCS Season 2 finals he might make the list for September.
Just realised there was absolutely no mention of Polt and now he's WCS Americas Champion D= Didn't he also win MLG or something not too long back? I'm guessing the writers and editors missed it.
They forgot polt... even before WCS he deserved AT LEAST a mention... he won MLG late june, and wos 2 zotac cups in july beating some good players like mma and hyun that is #8 in this rank. He lost to revival a close series on IEM but that was it.
Polt deserved to be listed in the top10 (i would put him somewhere 6-8), but at least should be mentioned.
On August 12 2013 06:18 shin777 wrote: lol. innovation only won 1 championship when hellbat was super op and he was abusing it to death or cheese all the time. I just can't understand people calling him the best in the world. If that logic applies, it is absolutely ok for maru to be the best in the world right now. He beat all the top players alone the way this season and he should be #1 in the world and power rank #1.
If innovation should be considered #1 in the world, he's gotta at least win few championships not just 1 championship with patch terran manner. He's good in tvz I give him that but other than that, he's nothing special but patch terran champ. Need prove? As soon as hellbat nerf came, bomber 3-0 him, maru 4-0 him. Bomber didn't even cheese him and still destroyed innovation. Maru 1 based all in him 3 times in a row but that hardly matters coz innovation couldn't adopt at all. That surely doesn't suit #1 in the world. Innovation's tvt was 100% based on cheese or hellbat drop abuse to mech push and with that gone, his seemingly invincible tvt record was bound to fall(though I bet nobody expected his tvt was that bad without hellbat). Innovation should feel lucky that hellbat nerf came after he made it to round of 4. In wings of liberty, inno wasn't even code S round of 8 material and only reason he won season 1 final was most of his important matchese were tvt where he could abuse hellbat drop and cheese to death. If Innovation still plays solid and win another championship, I will consider him as one of the best in the world but as it is now, he's mere patch terran champ in my book.
So there you go. All you people calling Maru garbage, you should have look at innovation's record first. By people who calling innovation #1 in the world's logic, Maru prime is NEW #1 in the world. He beat the best in the world innovation 4-0, so Maru is the #1. There's no excuse for innovation losing 4 games in a row whether he cheesed or not. His tvt was never impressive from the beginning and with hellbat drop gone, he will never be able to win tvt the way he did up till now. I bet flash, mvp etc will have sweet revenge times against innovation if they ever meet him again.
I'm not an Innovation fan but he would have won the last two GSLs in WoL if ZvT weren't ridiculously Z favored. Have you watched his TvZ in WoL? Without mines and booster his medivac harass still looked fucking insane. And he didn't lose any Bo3 TvT in WoL so I don't know wtf you're talking about.
On August 12 2013 06:18 shin777 wrote: lol. innovation only won 1 championship when hellbat was super op and he was abusing it to death or cheese all the time. I just can't understand people calling him the best in the world. If that logic applies, it is absolutely ok for maru to be the best in the world right now. He beat all the top players alone the way this season and he should be #1 in the world and power rank #1.
If innovation should be considered #1 in the world, he's gotta at least win few championships not just 1 championship with patch terran manner. He's good in tvz I give him that but other than that, he's nothing special but patch terran champ. Need prove? As soon as hellbat nerf came, bomber 3-0 him, maru 4-0 him. Bomber didn't even cheese him and still destroyed innovation. Maru 1 based all in him 3 times in a row but that hardly matters coz innovation couldn't adopt at all. That surely doesn't suit #1 in the world. Innovation's tvt was 100% based on cheese or hellbat drop abuse to mech push and with that gone, his seemingly invincible tvt record was bound to fall(though I bet nobody expected his tvt was that bad without hellbat). Innovation should feel lucky that hellbat nerf came after he made it to round of 4. In wings of liberty, inno wasn't even code S round of 8 material and only reason he won season 1 final was most of his important matchese were tvt where he could abuse hellbat drop and cheese to death. If Innovation still plays solid and win another championship, I will consider him as one of the best in the world but as it is now, he's mere patch terran champ in my book.
So there you go. All you people calling Maru garbage, you should have look at innovation's record first. By people who calling innovation #1 in the world's logic, Maru prime is NEW #1 in the world. He beat the best in the world innovation 4-0, so Maru is the #1. There's no excuse for innovation losing 4 games in a row whether he cheesed or not. His tvt was never impressive from the beginning and with hellbat drop gone, he will never be able to win tvt the way he did up till now. I bet flash, mvp etc will have sweet revenge times against innovation if they ever meet him again.
are you serious ? have you ever seen his game against soulkey when soulkey did an early 3 hatch before pool and got away with it ? soulkey played extremely good yet he lost convincingly against innovation .. innovation makes tvz look really broken ..
On August 12 2013 06:18 shin777 wrote: lol. innovation only won 1 championship when hellbat was super op and he was abusing it to death or cheese all the time. I just can't understand people calling him the best in the world. If that logic applies, it is absolutely ok for maru to be the best in the world right now. He beat all the top players alone the way this season and he should be #1 in the world and power rank #1.
If innovation should be considered #1 in the world, he's gotta at least win few championships not just 1 championship with patch terran manner. He's good in tvz I give him that but other than that, he's nothing special but patch terran champ. Need prove? As soon as hellbat nerf came, bomber 3-0 him, maru 4-0 him. Bomber didn't even cheese him and still destroyed innovation. Maru 1 based all in him 3 times in a row but that hardly matters coz innovation couldn't adopt at all. That surely doesn't suit #1 in the world. Innovation's tvt was 100% based on cheese or hellbat drop abuse to mech push and with that gone, his seemingly invincible tvt record was bound to fall(though I bet nobody expected his tvt was that bad without hellbat). Innovation should feel lucky that hellbat nerf came after he made it to round of 4. In wings of liberty, inno wasn't even code S round of 8 material and only reason he won season 1 final was most of his important matchese were tvt where he could abuse hellbat drop and cheese to death. If Innovation still plays solid and win another championship, I will consider him as one of the best in the world but as it is now, he's mere patch terran champ in my book.
So there you go. All you people calling Maru garbage, you should have look at innovation's record first. By people who calling innovation #1 in the world's logic, Maru prime is NEW #1 in the world. He beat the best in the world innovation 4-0, so Maru is the #1. There's no excuse for innovation losing 4 games in a row whether he cheesed or not. His tvt was never impressive from the beginning and with hellbat drop gone, he will never be able to win tvt the way he did up till now. I bet flash, mvp etc will have sweet revenge times against innovation if they ever meet him again.
I'm not an Innovation fan but he would have won the last two GSLs in WoL if ZvT weren't ridiculously Z favored. Have you watched his TvZ in WoL? Without mines and booster his medivac harass still looked fucking insane. And he didn't lose any Bo3 TvT in WoL so I don't know wtf you're talking about.
Would he have beaten Life if Life hadn't been eliminated by his weak ZvZ? Would he have beaten MC? Would he have beaten all the other Terrans that would have been around? Or even outperformed him at that time (Taeja)?
Innovations strength is and was first and foremost his TvZ. His other matchups are top, but not as beastly. It's a useless discussion to begin with, but even if you lead it, Innovation was not even the most successful Terran - not to say nonZerg, player - at the end of WoL.
On August 09 2013 00:44 ChoiSulli wrote: It is kinda stupid when you can have 5 new people in the top 10 of power rank in one month. This game is either to volatile or the skill gaps arent wide enough to even warrant a list then. Flash was in like the BW power rank for years in SC2 he drops out after 1 month. There is no need for a power rank if the guys that get through wcs korea are going to get top billing every month. All the quarter finalists from WCS Korea are in the top 10.... lets be serious how many of those guys if matched 1 on 1 in best of 5 vs Flash, would be considered favorite by the public?
"Game is bad because flash isn't in the power rank. Also, power rank is bad because flash isn't in it."
The fact they consider Flash as favorite is because 70 % of the votes are infavor of him being the BW God. And you also have to be serious his TvP is actully bad.. and hes not that uber in TvT he just is not that good in Sc2 YET
On August 12 2013 06:18 shin777 wrote: lol. innovation only won 1 championship when hellbat was super op and he was abusing it to death or cheese all the time. I just can't understand people calling him the best in the world. If that logic applies, it is absolutely ok for maru to be the best in the world right now. He beat all the top players alone the way this season and he should be #1 in the world and power rank #1.
If innovation should be considered #1 in the world, he's gotta at least win few championships not just 1 championship with patch terran manner. He's good in tvz I give him that but other than that, he's nothing special but patch terran champ. Need prove? As soon as hellbat nerf came, bomber 3-0 him, maru 4-0 him. Bomber didn't even cheese him and still destroyed innovation. Maru 1 based all in him 3 times in a row but that hardly matters coz innovation couldn't adopt at all. That surely doesn't suit #1 in the world. Innovation's tvt was 100% based on cheese or hellbat drop abuse to mech push and with that gone, his seemingly invincible tvt record was bound to fall(though I bet nobody expected his tvt was that bad without hellbat). Innovation should feel lucky that hellbat nerf came after he made it to round of 4. In wings of liberty, inno wasn't even code S round of 8 material and only reason he won season 1 final was most of his important matchese were tvt where he could abuse hellbat drop and cheese to death. If Innovation still plays solid and win another championship, I will consider him as one of the best in the world but as it is now, he's mere patch terran champ in my book.
So there you go. All you people calling Maru garbage, you should have look at innovation's record first. By people who calling innovation #1 in the world's logic, Maru prime is NEW #1 in the world. He beat the best in the world innovation 4-0, so Maru is the #1. There's no excuse for innovation losing 4 games in a row whether he cheesed or not. His tvt was never impressive from the beginning and with hellbat drop gone, he will never be able to win tvt the way he did up till now. I bet flash, mvp etc will have sweet revenge times against innovation if they ever meet him again.
I'm not an Innovation fan but he would have won the last two GSLs in WoL if ZvT weren't ridiculously Z favored. Have you watched his TvZ in WoL? Without mines and booster his medivac harass still looked fucking insane. And he didn't lose any Bo3 TvT in WoL so I don't know wtf you're talking about.
Would he have beaten Life if Life hadn't been eliminated by his weak ZvZ? Would he have beaten MC? Would he have beaten all the other Terrans that would have been around? Or even outperformed him at that time (Taeja)?
Innovations strength is and was first and foremost his TvZ. His other matchups are top, but not as beastly. It's a useless discussion to begin with, but even if you lead it, Innovation was not even the most successful Terran - not to say nonZerg, player - at the end of WoL.
He won all his TvT in his two WoL GSLs , against Polt, Keen, and Taeja (the best TvTer at the time). Innovation TvP would have been pretty insane too ( we know that now ), and Protoss weren't doing well against Terrans in that period. Mvp showed that Life was not invincible even with WoL balance. Thus a strong argument could be made for Innovation winning those GSLs had TvZ were balance.
On August 12 2013 06:18 shin777 wrote: lol. innovation only won 1 championship when hellbat was super op and he was abusing it to death or cheese all the time. I just can't understand people calling him the best in the world. If that logic applies, it is absolutely ok for maru to be the best in the world right now. He beat all the top players alone the way this season and he should be #1 in the world and power rank #1.
If innovation should be considered #1 in the world, he's gotta at least win few championships not just 1 championship with patch terran manner. He's good in tvz I give him that but other than that, he's nothing special but patch terran champ. Need prove? As soon as hellbat nerf came, bomber 3-0 him, maru 4-0 him. Bomber didn't even cheese him and still destroyed innovation. Maru 1 based all in him 3 times in a row but that hardly matters coz innovation couldn't adopt at all. That surely doesn't suit #1 in the world. Innovation's tvt was 100% based on cheese or hellbat drop abuse to mech push and with that gone, his seemingly invincible tvt record was bound to fall(though I bet nobody expected his tvt was that bad without hellbat). Innovation should feel lucky that hellbat nerf came after he made it to round of 4. In wings of liberty, inno wasn't even code S round of 8 material and only reason he won season 1 final was most of his important matchese were tvt where he could abuse hellbat drop and cheese to death. If Innovation still plays solid and win another championship, I will consider him as one of the best in the world but as it is now, he's mere patch terran champ in my book.
So there you go. All you people calling Maru garbage, you should have look at innovation's record first. By people who calling innovation #1 in the world's logic, Maru prime is NEW #1 in the world. He beat the best in the world innovation 4-0, so Maru is the #1. There's no excuse for innovation losing 4 games in a row whether he cheesed or not. His tvt was never impressive from the beginning and with hellbat drop gone, he will never be able to win tvt the way he did up till now. I bet flash, mvp etc will have sweet revenge times against innovation if they ever meet him again.
I'm not an Innovation fan but he would have won the last two GSLs in WoL if ZvT weren't ridiculously Z favored. Have you watched his TvZ in WoL? Without mines and booster his medivac harass still looked fucking insane. And he didn't lose any Bo3 TvT in WoL so I don't know wtf you're talking about.
Would he have beaten Life if Life hadn't been eliminated by his weak ZvZ? Would he have beaten MC? Would he have beaten all the other Terrans that would have been around? Or even outperformed him at that time (Taeja)?
Innovations strength is and was first and foremost his TvZ. His other matchups are top, but not as beastly. It's a useless discussion to begin with, but even if you lead it, Innovation was not even the most successful Terran - not to say nonZerg, player - at the end of WoL.
He won all his TvT in his two WoL GSLs , against Polt, Keen, and Taeja (the best TvTer at the time). Innovation TvP would have been pretty insane too ( we know that now ), and Protoss weren't doing well against Terrans in that period. Mvp showed that Life was not invincible even with WoL balance. Thus a strong argument could be made for Innovation winning those GSLs had TvZ were balance.
You can make the same strong arguement for this seasons OSL... just that Innovation got stomped out of it by someone noone would have made an arguement for.
On August 12 2013 06:18 shin777 wrote: lol. innovation only won 1 championship when hellbat was super op and he was abusing it to death or cheese all the time. I just can't understand people calling him the best in the world. If that logic applies, it is absolutely ok for maru to be the best in the world right now. He beat all the top players alone the way this season and he should be #1 in the world and power rank #1.
If innovation should be considered #1 in the world, he's gotta at least win few championships not just 1 championship with patch terran manner. He's good in tvz I give him that but other than that, he's nothing special but patch terran champ. Need prove? As soon as hellbat nerf came, bomber 3-0 him, maru 4-0 him. Bomber didn't even cheese him and still destroyed innovation. Maru 1 based all in him 3 times in a row but that hardly matters coz innovation couldn't adopt at all. That surely doesn't suit #1 in the world. Innovation's tvt was 100% based on cheese or hellbat drop abuse to mech push and with that gone, his seemingly invincible tvt record was bound to fall(though I bet nobody expected his tvt was that bad without hellbat). Innovation should feel lucky that hellbat nerf came after he made it to round of 4. In wings of liberty, inno wasn't even code S round of 8 material and only reason he won season 1 final was most of his important matchese were tvt where he could abuse hellbat drop and cheese to death. If Innovation still plays solid and win another championship, I will consider him as one of the best in the world but as it is now, he's mere patch terran champ in my book.
So there you go. All you people calling Maru garbage, you should have look at innovation's record first. By people who calling innovation #1 in the world's logic, Maru prime is NEW #1 in the world. He beat the best in the world innovation 4-0, so Maru is the #1. There's no excuse for innovation losing 4 games in a row whether he cheesed or not. His tvt was never impressive from the beginning and with hellbat drop gone, he will never be able to win tvt the way he did up till now. I bet flash, mvp etc will have sweet revenge times against innovation if they ever meet him again.
I'm not an Innovation fan but he would have won the last two GSLs in WoL if ZvT weren't ridiculously Z favored. Have you watched his TvZ in WoL? Without mines and booster his medivac harass still looked fucking insane. And he didn't lose any Bo3 TvT in WoL so I don't know wtf you're talking about.
Would he have beaten Life if Life hadn't been eliminated by his weak ZvZ? Would he have beaten MC? Would he have beaten all the other Terrans that would have been around? Or even outperformed him at that time (Taeja)?
Innovations strength is and was first and foremost his TvZ. His other matchups are top, but not as beastly. It's a useless discussion to begin with, but even if you lead it, Innovation was not even the most successful Terran - not to say nonZerg, player - at the end of WoL.
He won all his TvT in his two WoL GSLs , against Polt, Keen, and Taeja (the best TvTer at the time). Innovation TvP would have been pretty insane too ( we know that now ), and Protoss weren't doing well against Terrans in that period. Mvp showed that Life was not invincible even with WoL balance. Thus a strong argument could be made for Innovation winning those GSLs had TvZ were balance.
You can make the same strong arguement for this seasons OSL... just that Innovation got stomped out of it by someone noone would have made an arguement for.
Therefore it was an argument, not a claim/statement, of a hypothetical situation. The guy I quoted said that Innovation was not Code S Ro8 material in WoL or something, I said he was in fact championship contender material.
i dont really get how they almost put up revival on that list, but not even considered JD. but then again, i dont really get this power rank thing anyway
On August 10 2013 18:02 Torra wrote: Innovation is still clearly the best player in the world, I don't know why people question him getting #1 again.
Um, Maru just beat #1 and #2 by a combined score of 8-2 and you still think Innovation is "clearly the best player in the world?" What world are you living on exactly?
A world in which SC2 is volatile enough to forgive monumental players like Bogus for losing a series.
The month that OSL/GSL playoffs and finals are being played I really dont need a power rank to find out who is #1 and #2. Its right there on the scoreboard. Maru n1 and Rain n2. It really is that simple.
edit: btw the more you argue for innovations awesomness the more impressive Marus achievement gets
On August 15 2013 19:00 Fjodorov wrote: The month that OSL/GSL playoffs and finals are being played I really dont need a power rank to find out who is #1 and #2. Its right there on the scoreboard. Maru n1 and Rain n2. It really is that simple.
edit: btw the more you argue for innovations awesomness the more impressive Marus achievement gets
Sure, if they were the only tournaments happening.
Next month's power rank will have WCS global s2. Let's say Bomber wins that, Grubby comes runner up. Do we do the list by ranking in that tournament? What if Maru comes in #9-16, and Rain gets to #5-8? Do we now disregard Maru beating Rain?
Some people take head to head far too literally for best in the world. You guys be wanting the Unofficial world championship thread =P
On August 15 2013 19:00 Fjodorov wrote: The month that OSL/GSL playoffs and finals are being played I really dont need a power rank to find out who is #1 and #2. Its right there on the scoreboard. Maru n1 and Rain n2. It really is that simple.
edit: btw the more you argue for innovations awesomness the more impressive Marus achievement gets
Sure, if they were the only tournaments happening.
Next month's power rank will have WCS global s2. Let's say Bomber wins that, Grubby comes runner up. Do we do the list by ranking in that tournament? What if Maru comes in #9-16, and Rain gets to #5-8? Do we now disregard Maru beating Rain?
Some people take head to head far too literally for best in the world. You guys be wanting the Unofficial world championship thread =P
And some people keep denying results just so they can claim that their favorite player is still the best in the world.
On August 16 2013 22:08 ZackAttack wrote: "has not lost an offline macro TvP in four months" sounds like some serious cherry picking.
yea the macro part is fucking ridiculous, cherry picking offline only games is fine with me, but then claiming he only lost cause his opponent wasn't playing the game correctly? lol, I bet he would win every macro game ever if he would just open 3 CC first, then we could really call him the best player in the world winning every macro game and only losing to cheese
So who did Taeja beat to deserve #4? Just asking...Beating foreigners and lower level Koreans should not count that much. The level of WCS America is like code A Korea or even less. I don't know if Polt is even Code S quality. He beat Jaedong who dropped from code S and couldnt qualify anymore, same as Taeja. All Koreans that cannot qualify in Code S went to WCS EU and AM.
On August 22 2013 06:31 p14c wrote: So who did Taeja beat to deserve #4? Just asking...Beating foreigners and lower level Koreans should not count that much. The level of WCS America is like code A Korea or even less. I don't know if Polt is even Code S quality. He beat Jaedong who dropped from code S and couldnt qualify anymore, same as Taeja. All Koreans that cannot qualify in Code S went to WCS EU and AM.
On August 22 2013 06:31 p14c wrote: So who did Taeja beat to deserve #4? Just asking...Beating foreigners and lower level Koreans should not count that much. The level of WCS America is like code A Korea or even less. I don't know if Polt is even Code S quality. He beat Jaedong who dropped from code S and couldnt qualify anymore, same as Taeja. All Koreans that cannot qualify in Code S went to WCS EU and AM.
Um he never beat jaedong fyi (jaedong is 2-0 versus him). Also Jaedong isn't in code S because he's playing in WCS America which he made finals of. Also Taeja is rank 6 not 4. Pretty much you are wrong in everything in this post wow good job.
And it'll be nice to see Jaedong back on the PR (after back to back finals I'd be shocked if he wasn't).
We're getting closer to see a foreigner on the PR I'd say. Given that there's no proleague this month WCS will likely account for more than it has in the past.
And it'll be nice to see Jaedong back on the PR (after back to back finals I'd be shocked if he wasn't).
We're getting closer to see a foreigner on the PR I'd say. Given that there's no proleague this month WCS will likely account for more than it has in the past.
The gsl groups could alter some things, especially if the next PR is a little late again. However, I think Bomber, Bogus, Taeja, and Jaedong are locks for the top 5. Bomber very likely should be #1.
Despite Bogus looking more mortal than ever, he's still nabbing his share of results and past HotS accomplishments carry at least some weight so I don't think much can knock him out of the top 5. Maybe if he bombs in his ro32 code S group.
1) Bomber 2) Taeja 3) Bogus 4) Jaedong
then it gets hazy where Polt, First, PartinG(won WCG KR), Maru, Rain, and Soulkey should make up the rest.
close but no cigar: Scarlett, Sora, MC, Finale, Naniwa
You guys seem to be forgetting that Jaedong and Scarlett only showed great play at the WCS Finals against ONE race. None of the Protoss Jaedong defeated have good records against higher level Zerg. Jaedong should not be in the top 5 just because he did well against only protoss in the WCS finals. Jaedong needs to fight Protoss who have good ZvP before I can rank him highly. Jaedong was ravaged by Bomber in the finals and by Polt in AM Finals. He barely defeated Scarlett who was also barely defeated by Life who was handily beaten by Soulkey. Soulkey still has amazing ZvT and ZvZ. Jaedong has great ZvZ and great PvZ, but he hasn't defeated a great PvZ player yet.
Duckdeok has the same issue with only showing good results from PvP. He has yet to prove himself in the other match-ups.
Someone who has proven themselves in multiple match-ups against top players should take priority. This is non-biased.
Bomber has top 5 TvT and TvP while having great TvZ.. Taeja has top 5 TvT, (great-top 5) TvP and good TvZ. Innovation has the best TvZ, top 5 TvT, and good TvP. Soulkey has the best ZvT, maybe best ZvZ and has (moderate-good) ZvP. SuperNova has top 5 TvZ and TvP, and good TvT. Maru has top 5 TvP, top 5 or top 10 TvT (not sure after his loss to aLive), and good TvZ. Rain has top 5 PvT, top 10 PvP or higher, and moderate PvZ. First has top 5 PvT, good PvP, and moderate PvZ. Jaedong has (great-top5) ZvP, (great-top5) ZvZ, and moderate ZvT. Polt has top 5 TvT, good TvP, and good TvZ.
Best>>=Top 5>>top 10>=great>>good>>moderate
Top 3 is a toss up. Soulkey hasn't played enough games vs other top players this month. He is easily the best Zerg, but not enough recent matches to gauge his ZvZ and ZvP.
Bomber has one of the best TvTs and TvPs, but don't know how his TvZ stakes up against Soulkey.
Innovation has showed vastly improved TvT and can fight evenly with any of the Terran in the WCS Finals. His TvZ is still the best by far, but not able to gauge his TvP because we don't know how they compare to First, and etc.
Taeja's win vs Rain wasn't that impressive because Rain wasn't playing as well as in WCS KR. Besides his win vs Rain he has no recent relevant TvP matches. Hard to gauge his level there. He hasn't played a bo3 TvZ vs anyone high level in a long time so can't gauge it on current information. He lost to Nerchio in bo1 and barely won a bo3 TvZ vs HyuN. HyuN lost to heromarine the end of August. Either HyuN is slumping, heromarine is really good, or Taeja's TvZ isn't great. There is no doubt that Taeja is one of the best TvT players in the world though.
Maru and Rain's lackluster performance at WCS Finals keeps them there. Supernova hasn't done enough.
ZvP skill is hard to gauge now. Many Protoss have inconsistent or not very good PvZ. So slaughtering Protoss isn't that impressive at the moment. So it's hard to rank Jaedong highly. The only reason Jaedong is on here is because most other players haven't played matches is so long that I don't know where they stand. Jaedong has high level ZvZ, but I don't know how it ranks compared to the WCS KR Zergs. His TvZ leaves much to be desired.
Polt was definitely not on the same level as First. He played well though. Polt's TvZ is hard to rank. The most recent loss in TvZ was to Revival who hasn't played another ZvT is over a month. No clue. Polt's TvT is no doubt one of the best.
First is one of the best PvT players. With Parting and Naniwa showing great TvP and Dear and sOs defeating SuperNova...it's hard to know who has the best TvP and where everyone stands. sOs should be on this list, but it's not fair considering how little he has played compared to the others. First like all other top Protoss is in PvZ limbo. I have no idea how it ranks up compared to other Protoss. He hasn't played enough PvP.
The reality could be very different from this ranking. We shall see in the coming months where everyone stands.
TvT: Beating top tier Terrans consistently. Top 5 TvT. TvP: Beating First who is a Top tier TvP. Lost to Rain in TvP recently. Top 5 TvP. TvZ: Lost to Life and barely defeated Scarlett recently. (Jaedong's ZvT isn't Top Tier so beating him doesn't mean much). Too hard to gauge. Innovation, Supernova, and Soulkey > Bomber = Scarlett
TvT: Lost to Taeja but gave him trouble with mech. Taeja gave Polt+Bomber trouble. His TvT should be lower end of the Top 5. TvZ: Consistently defeats Soulkey who has showcased the best ZvT. Number 1 TvZ. TvP: Lost to Naniwa and Parting. Both of whom haven't played enough TvP so it's hard to gauge their tier. Beat Zest who beat Maru two weeks before he won WCS Korea. Hard to gauge.
ZvP: The Protoss he beat recently haven't shown great PvZ in recent times. Very good PvZ, but need him to play against good PvZ players before I rank him higher. ZvT: Lost to Bomber and Polt lopsidedly. Not Top tier. ZvZ: Barely defeated Scarlett who was barely defeated by Life who was handily defeated by Soulkey. Lost one game to Ret. Not enough relevant ZvZ for the month, but has shown great ZvZ consistency.
ZvT: Is the only Zerg to put up a fight against Innovation. Number 1 ZvT.
Last relevant matches: Losses to Innovation, (8-18, 8-03). Loss to Supernova, (8-06)
ZvP: Last relevant matches: Loss to Sora, (8-17). Not enough games to gauge.
ZvZ: Last relevant matches: Win vs Coca, (7-28). Win vs Life (7-26). He has only lost two ZvZ games in HOTS. SK handily defeated Life who barely defeated Scarlett who was barely defeated by Jaedong. Not enough relevant ZvZ this month, but has shown great ZvZ consistency.
TvZ: Lost to Scarlett. (Match against Symbol was too long ago and his ZvT wasn't great) Not enough information to gauge. TvT: Defeated Innovation easily 3 weeks ago. Lost to Alive and beat MMA. Alive has never been this good before and MMA's inability to take long series against top tier players makes this hard to gauge. At least top 10. TvP: Defeated Rain. Top 5 TvP.
PvT: Defeated Bomber handily and barely defeated SuperNova. Lost horribly to Taeja. Top 5 PvT. PvZ:
Last relevant matches: Lost to Jaedong, (8-23). One win and loss against hyvaa, who has a bad record against Protoss. Not enough information to be accurate. Definitely not top tier though. PvP: Has only lost one PvP series in over a month to Parting. Maybe Top 10 PvP.
TvT: Barely beating Taeja recently. Top 5 TvT. TvP: Lost to First twice. Polt played well, but First was a level above him. Not Top Tier TvP. TvZ:
Last relevant matches: Easily defeated Jaedong, (8-11). Barely lost to Revival who has only played one TvZ in almost two months, (07-27). No way to gauge.
It's really hard to gauge everyone's tier placement. There aren't enough samples. Many top players don't have many recent games or they haven't fought Top Tier players in certain match-ups.
Close, but no cigar:
Alive has never played at this level before. So we can't compare the Alive at WCS AM to the one at the S2 Finals. We should wait to see his consistency.
Scarlett clearly has high level ZvT, but we don't know how it matches up against other top terrans. Also, many zergs haven't been in the higher levels of the WCS so it's hard to gauge all the other zerg's proficiency in any matchup. Scarlett hasn't shown high level ZvP. Beating MacSed doesn't mean high level ZvP. Scarlett almost beat Jaedong, so great ZvZ.
Naniwa hasn't fought any proven Top Tier TvP players so we don't know how high his PvT ranks. He beat Duckdeok, but lost two times before that. Naniwa beat Innovation and MMA, but we don't know how high their PvT ranks. Naniwa's PvZ isn't Top Tier.
Revival hasn't beaten a top player in a month. So it's hard to gauge him. He has a good record though.
Honorable Mentions:
Parting won KR WCG, but I can't gauge how his PvT matches up to the top 10 terrans. Also, he hasn't shown good ZvP in a long time.
Sora has been on fire lately, but I haven't seen enough matches from him yet.
Duckdeok won WCS EU, but hasn't shown great PvT or PvZ.
Hyun lost to San who lost to Targa. So, bad ZvP. Good ZvT. Great ZvZ. Not good enough for top 10 though.
I'll edit this once the KR premier league happens.
Innovation is still #1 player in the world, there's a reason why anyone beating him still remains an upset.
Only way in which he's failing is strategy, his mechanics are still the best. Being weak to cheese doesn't make him #2 to Soulkey, Jaedong, or Rain. Jaedong has consistantly struggled with TvZ while Innovation is strong in all match-ups. In fact, he's invincible in one.
He played one of, if not the best TvT we've ever seen so far in Starcraft II, and he still remains over 70% in all match-ups.
Also Scarlett top 10!!! First ever foreigner in top 10??
On August 26 2013 16:28 SaltySam wrote: You guys seem to be forgetting that Jaedong and Scarlett only showed great play at the WCS Finals against ONE race. None of the Protoss Jaedong defeated have good records against higher level Zerg. Jaedong should not be in the top 5 just because he did well against only protoss in the WCS finals. Jaedong needs to fight Protoss who have good ZvP before I can rank him highly. Jaedong was ravaged by Bomber in the finals and by Polt in AM Finals. He barely defeated Scarlett who was also barely defeated by Life who was handily beaten by Soulkey. Soulkey still has amazing ZvT and ZvZ. Jaedong has great ZvZ and great PvZ, but he hasn't defeated a great PvZ player yet. + Show Spoiler +
Duckdeok has the same issue with only showing good results from PvP. He has yet to prove himself in the other match-ups.
Someone who has proven themselves in multiple match-ups against top players should take priority. This is non-biased.
Bomber has top 5 TvT and TvP while having great TvZ.. Taeja has top 5 TvT and TvP and good TvZ. Innovation has the best TvZ, top 5 TvT, and good TvP. Soulkey has the best ZvT, maybe best ZvZ and has (moderate-good) ZvP. SuperNova has top 5 TvZ and TvP, and good TvT. Maru has top 5 TvP, top 5 or top 10 TvT (not sure after his loss to aLive), and good TvZ. Rain has top 5 PvT, top 10 PvP or higher, and moderate PvZ. First has top 5 PvT, good PvP, and moderate PvZ. Jaedong has (great-top5) ZvP, (great-top5) ZvZ, and moderate ZvT. Polt has top 5 TvT, good TvP, and good TvZ.
TvT: Beating top tier Terrans consistently. Top 5 TvT. TvP: Beating First who is a Top tier TvP. Lost to Rain in TvP recently. Top 5 TvP. TvZ: Lost to Life and barely defeated Scarlett recently. (Jaedong's ZvT isn't Top Tier so beating him doesn't mean much). Too hard to gauge. Innovation, Supernova, and Soulkey > Bomber = Scarlett
TvT: Lost to Taeja but gave him trouble with mech. Taeja gave Polt+Bomber trouble. His TvT should be lower end of the Top 5. TvZ: Consistently defeats Soulkey who has showcased the best ZvT. Number 1 TvZ. TvP: Lost to Naniwa and Parting. Both of whom haven't played enough TvP so it's hard to gauge their tier. Beat Zest who beat Maru two weeks before he won WCS Korea. Hard to gauge.
ZvP: The Protoss he beat recently haven't shown great PvZ in recent times. Very good PvZ, but need him to play against good PvZ players before I rank him higher. ZvT: Lost to Bomber and Polt lopsidedly. Not Top tier. ZvZ: Barely defeated Scarlett who was barely defeated by Life who was handily defeated by Soulkey. Lost one game to Ret. Not enough relevant ZvZ for the month, but has shown great ZvZ consistency.
ZvT: Is the only Zerg to put up a fight against Innovation. Number 1 ZvT.
Last relevant matches: Losses to Innovation, (8-18, 8-03). Loss to Supernova, (8-06)
ZvP: Last relevant matches: Loss to Sora, (8-17). Not enough games to gauge.
ZvZ: Last relevant matches: Win vs Coca, (7-28). Win vs Life (7-26). He has only lost two ZvZ games in HOTS. SK handily defeated Life who barely defeated Scarlett who was barely defeated by Jaedong. Not enough relevant ZvZ this month, but has shown great ZvZ consistency.
TvZ: Lost to Scarlett. (Match against Symbol was too long ago and his ZvT wasn't great) Not enough information to gauge. TvT: Defeated Innovation easily 3 weeks ago. Lost to Alive and beat MMA. Alive has never been this good before and MMA's inability to take long series against top tier players makes this hard to gauge. At least top 10. TvP: Defeated Rain. Top 5 TvP.
PvT: Defeated Bomber handily and barely defeated SuperNova. Lost horribly to Taeja. Top 5 PvT. PvZ:
Last relevant matches: Lost to Jaedong, (8-23). One win and loss against hyvaa, who has a bad record against Protoss. Not enough information to be accurate. Definitely not top tier though. PvP: Has only lost one PvP series in over a month to Parting. Maybe Top 10 PvP.
TvT: Barely beating Taeja recently. Top 5 TvT. TvP: Lost to First twice. Polt played well, but First was a level above him. Not Top Tier TvP. TvZ:
Last relevant matches: Easily defeated Jaedong, (8-11). Barely lost to Revival who has only played one TvZ in almost two months, (07-27). No way to gauge.
It's really hard to gauge everyone's tier placement. There aren't enough samples. Many top players don't have many recent games or they haven't fought Top Tier players in certain match-ups.
Close, but no cigar:
Alive has never played at this level before. So we can't compare the Alive at WCS AM to the one at the S2 Finals. We should wait to see his consistency.
Scarlett clearly has high level ZvT, but we don't know how it matches up against other top terrans. Also, many zergs haven't been in the higher levels of the WCS so it's hard to gauge all the other zerg's proficiency in any matchup. Scarlett hasn't shown high level ZvP. Beating MacSed doesn't mean high level ZvP. Scarlett almost beat Jaedong, so great ZvZ.
Naniwa hasn't fought any proven Top Tier TvP players so we don't know how high his PvT ranks. He beat Duckdeok, but lost two times before that. Naniwa beat Innovation and MMA, but we don't know how high their PvT ranks. Naniwa's PvZ isn't Top Tier.
Revival hasn't beaten a top player in a month. So it's hard to gauge him. He has a good record though.
Honorable Mentions:
Parting won KR WCG, but I can't gauge how his PvT matches up to the top 10 terrans. Also, he hasn't shown good ZvP in a long time.
Sora has been on fire lately, but I haven't seen enough matches from him yet.
Duckdeok won WCS EU, but hasn't shown great PvT or PvZ.
Hyun lost to San who lost to Targa. So, bad ZvP. Good ZvT. Great ZvZ. Not good enough for top 10 though.
I'll edit this once the KR premier league happens.
Can you tell me what protosses do have really good PvZ then?
I don't think Bogus deserves #1 anymore. He's been consistent and has a big win/lots of top-place finishes this year, but given the criteria for these (namely recent results having more weight) Bomber totally deserves it more. #2 in RSL, ro4 (owning Flash, First, and Bogus himself along the way) and destroying the regionals (including taking out the guy who beat Bogus otw) should be enough to net him the top spot. He looked damn good doing it too.
Scarlett is #11 as far as I'm concerned. Just barely not enough to place her over Polt, First, Soulkey, Maru, Rain, or even PartinG.
On September 01 2013 12:28 Pandain wrote: Innovation is still #1 player in the world, there's a reason why anyone beating him still remains an upset.
Only way in which he's failing is strategy, his mechanics are still the best. Being weak to cheese doesn't make him #2 to Soulkey, Jaedong, or Rain. Jaedong has consistantly struggled with TvZ while Innovation is strong in all match-ups. In fact, he's invincible in one.
He played one of, if not the best TvT we've ever seen so far in Starcraft II, and he still remains over 70% in all match-ups.
Also Scarlett top 10!!! First ever foreigner in top 10??
I would not put Innovation at #1 and I would not put Scarlett at #10. The only two zergs who I would put in the top 10 are Jaedong and Soulkey. Innovation has not played well in August and Scarlett has largely been playing ZvT. Ranking Scarlett in the top 10 is an insult to all the great players in WCS Korea Code S and Code A who don't get the recognition they deserve because they are playing in such a difficult region. I mean just look at all the names in Code S and Code A who won't make the top 10. There are players like Symbol, Parting, Flash, Super, Dongraegu, Losira, Byun, Life, Leenock, etc. All of these players would easily be some of the favorites to win either WCS America or Europe.
On September 01 2013 12:28 Pandain wrote: Innovation is still #1 player in the world, there's a reason why anyone beating him still remains an upset.
Only way in which he's failing is strategy, his mechanics are still the best. Being weak to cheese doesn't make him #2 to Soulkey, Jaedong, or Rain. Jaedong has consistantly struggled with TvZ while Innovation is strong in all match-ups. In fact, he's invincible in one.
He played one of, if not the best TvT we've ever seen so far in Starcraft II, and he still remains over 70% in all match-ups.
Also Scarlett top 10!!! First ever foreigner in top 10??
I would not put Innovation at #1 and I would not put Scarlett at #10. The only two zergs who I would put in the top 10 are Jaedong and Soulkey. Innovation has not played well in August and Scarlett has largely been playing ZvT. Ranking Scarlett in the top 10 is an insult to all the great players in WCS Korea Code S and Code A who don't get the recognition they deserve because they are playing in such a difficult region. I mean just look at all the names in Code S and Code A who won't make the top 10. There are players like Symbol, Parting, Flash, Super, Dongraegu, Losira, Byun, Life, Leenock, etc. All of these players would easily be some of the favorites to win either WCS America or Europe.
Scarlett barely lost 2-3 to the best ZvZ in the world, second best TvZ behind Soulkey(I mean really, she crushed Maru and played absolutely fantastic vs Bomber who 4-0'd Jaedong), and we don't have any ZvP to really judge. However she's consistantly too 16 in KR gm. I actually think she's better than all the players you just mentioned except maybe Super.
On August 26 2013 16:28 SaltySam wrote: You guys seem to be forgetting that Jaedong and Scarlett only showed great play at the WCS Finals against ONE race. None of the Protoss Jaedong defeated have good records against higher level Zerg. Jaedong should not be in the top 5 just because he did well against only protoss in the WCS finals. Jaedong needs to fight Protoss who have good ZvP before I can rank him highly. Jaedong was ravaged by Bomber in the finals and by Polt in AM Finals. He barely defeated Scarlett who was also barely defeated by Life who was handily beaten by Soulkey. Soulkey still has amazing ZvT and ZvZ. Jaedong has great ZvZ and great PvZ, but he hasn't defeated a great PvZ player yet. + Show Spoiler +
Duckdeok has the same issue with only showing good results from PvP. He has yet to prove himself in the other match-ups.
Someone who has proven themselves in multiple match-ups against top players should take priority. This is non-biased.
Bomber has top 5 TvT and TvP while having great TvZ.. Taeja has top 5 TvT and TvP and good TvZ. Innovation has the best TvZ, top 5 TvT, and good TvP. Soulkey has the best ZvT, maybe best ZvZ and has (moderate-good) ZvP. SuperNova has top 5 TvZ and TvP, and good TvT. Maru has top 5 TvP, top 5 or top 10 TvT (not sure after his loss to aLive), and good TvZ. Rain has top 5 PvT, top 10 PvP or higher, and moderate PvZ. First has top 5 PvT, good PvP, and moderate PvZ. Jaedong has (great-top5) ZvP, (great-top5) ZvZ, and moderate ZvT. Polt has top 5 TvT, good TvP, and good TvZ.
TvT: Beating top tier Terrans consistently. Top 5 TvT. TvP: Beating First who is a Top tier TvP. Lost to Rain in TvP recently. Top 5 TvP. TvZ: Lost to Life and barely defeated Scarlett recently. (Jaedong's ZvT isn't Top Tier so beating him doesn't mean much). Too hard to gauge. Innovation, Supernova, and Soulkey > Bomber = Scarlett
TvT: Lost to Taeja but gave him trouble with mech. Taeja gave Polt+Bomber trouble. His TvT should be lower end of the Top 5. TvZ: Consistently defeats Soulkey who has showcased the best ZvT. Number 1 TvZ. TvP: Lost to Naniwa and Parting. Both of whom haven't played enough TvP so it's hard to gauge their tier. Beat Zest who beat Maru two weeks before he won WCS Korea. Hard to gauge.
ZvP: The Protoss he beat recently haven't shown great PvZ in recent times. Very good PvZ, but need him to play against good PvZ players before I rank him higher. ZvT: Lost to Bomber and Polt lopsidedly. Not Top tier. ZvZ: Barely defeated Scarlett who was barely defeated by Life who was handily defeated by Soulkey. Lost one game to Ret. Not enough relevant ZvZ for the month, but has shown great ZvZ consistency.
ZvT: Is the only Zerg to put up a fight against Innovation. Number 1 ZvT.
Last relevant matches: Losses to Innovation, (8-18, 8-03). Loss to Supernova, (8-06)
ZvP: Last relevant matches: Loss to Sora, (8-17). Not enough games to gauge.
ZvZ: Last relevant matches: Win vs Coca, (7-28). Win vs Life (7-26). He has only lost two ZvZ games in HOTS. SK handily defeated Life who barely defeated Scarlett who was barely defeated by Jaedong. Not enough relevant ZvZ this month, but has shown great ZvZ consistency.
TvZ: Lost to Scarlett. (Match against Symbol was too long ago and his ZvT wasn't great) Not enough information to gauge. TvT: Defeated Innovation easily 3 weeks ago. Lost to Alive and beat MMA. Alive has never been this good before and MMA's inability to take long series against top tier players makes this hard to gauge. At least top 10. TvP: Defeated Rain. Top 5 TvP.
PvT: Defeated Bomber handily and barely defeated SuperNova. Lost horribly to Taeja. Top 5 PvT. PvZ:
Last relevant matches: Lost to Jaedong, (8-23). One win and loss against hyvaa, who has a bad record against Protoss. Not enough information to be accurate. Definitely not top tier though. PvP: Has only lost one PvP series in over a month to Parting. Maybe Top 10 PvP.
TvT: Barely beating Taeja recently. Top 5 TvT. TvP: Lost to First twice. Polt played well, but First was a level above him. Not Top Tier TvP. TvZ:
Last relevant matches: Easily defeated Jaedong, (8-11). Barely lost to Revival who has only played one TvZ in almost two months, (07-27). No way to gauge.
It's really hard to gauge everyone's tier placement. There aren't enough samples. Many top players don't have many recent games or they haven't fought Top Tier players in certain match-ups.
Close, but no cigar:
Alive has never played at this level before. So we can't compare the Alive at WCS AM to the one at the S2 Finals. We should wait to see his consistency.
Scarlett clearly has high level ZvT, but we don't know how it matches up against other top terrans. Also, many zergs haven't been in the higher levels of the WCS so it's hard to gauge all the other zerg's proficiency in any matchup. Scarlett hasn't shown high level ZvP. Beating MacSed doesn't mean high level ZvP. Scarlett almost beat Jaedong, so great ZvZ.
Naniwa hasn't fought any proven Top Tier TvP players so we don't know how high his PvT ranks. He beat Duckdeok, but lost two times before that. Naniwa beat Innovation and MMA, but we don't know how high their PvT ranks. Naniwa's PvZ isn't Top Tier.
Revival hasn't beaten a top player in a month. So it's hard to gauge him. He has a good record though.
Honorable Mentions:
Parting won KR WCG, but I can't gauge how his PvT matches up to the top 10 terrans. Also, he hasn't shown good ZvP in a long time.
Sora has been on fire lately, but I haven't seen enough matches from him yet.
Duckdeok won WCS EU, but hasn't shown great PvT or PvZ.
Hyun lost to San who lost to Targa. So, bad ZvP. Good ZvT. Great ZvZ. Not good enough for top 10 though.
I'll edit this once the KR premier league happens.
Can you tell me what protosses do have really good PvZ then?
None that I can find. I searched through the match history of all the top protoss.
1. Some protoss haven't fought a zerg in over a month. 2. Some Protoss have only beaten lower level zergs. 3. Sora has to prove his consistency first. 4. Other protoss have lost to lower level zerg. 5. Some protoss have only had one or two ZvPs in about a month.
On September 01 2013 12:28 Pandain wrote: Innovation is still #1 player in the world, there's a reason why anyone beating him still remains an upset.
Only way in which he's failing is strategy, his mechanics are still the best. Being weak to cheese doesn't make him #2 to Soulkey, Jaedong, or Rain. Jaedong has consistantly struggled with TvZ while Innovation is strong in all match-ups. In fact, he's invincible in one.
He played one of, if not the best TvT we've ever seen so far in Starcraft II, and he still remains over 70% in all match-ups.
Also Scarlett top 10!!! First ever foreigner in top 10??
I would not put Innovation at #1 and I would not put Scarlett at #10. The only two zergs who I would put in the top 10 are Jaedong and Soulkey. Innovation has not played well in August and Scarlett has largely been playing ZvT. Ranking Scarlett in the top 10 is an insult to all the great players in WCS Korea Code S and Code A who don't get the recognition they deserve because they are playing in such a difficult region. I mean just look at all the names in Code S and Code A who won't make the top 10. There are players like Symbol, Parting, Flash, Super, Dongraegu, Losira, Byun, Life, Leenock, etc. All of these players would easily be some of the favorites to win either WCS America or Europe.
Scarlett barely lost 2-3 to the best ZvZ in the world, second best TvZ behind Soulkey(I mean really, she crushed Maru and played absolutely fantastic vs Bomber who 4-0'd Jaedong), and we don't have any ZvP to really judge. However she's consistantly too 16 in KR gm. I actually think she's better than all the players you just mentioned except maybe Super.
You can't put Scarlett's ZvT that high. Maru hasn't shown great TvZ. The only relevant player he has beaten recently in TvZ is Symbol (who isn't known for great TvZ). Also, he lost to Kangho a few days before that. Both of those TvZs were a month before his fight against Scarlett. Also, Bomber had only fought Scarlett(W), Life (L), Mekia (W), and Jaedong (W) in a month. Bomber would have to fight Soulkey so we can gauge his TvZ. For all we know Soulkey is so far above all other zergs in ZvT that calling someone second doesn't even mean anything. This past month many players haven't played many games so it's hard to judge. You are inflating Scarlett's ZvT level without enough data. Life would be ranked over Scarlett based on current data.
Also, there is no current data that suggests Scarlett or Jaedong are among the best ZvZs.
We will have a lot more data now that S3 is starting. So we shall see.
On September 01 2013 12:28 Pandain wrote: Innovation is still #1 player in the world, there's a reason why anyone beating him still remains an upset.
Only way in which he's failing is strategy, his mechanics are still the best. Being weak to cheese doesn't make him #2 to Soulkey, Jaedong, or Rain. Jaedong has consistantly struggled with TvZ while Innovation is strong in all match-ups. In fact, he's invincible in one.
He played one of, if not the best TvT we've ever seen so far in Starcraft II, and he still remains over 70% in all match-ups.
Also Scarlett top 10!!! First ever foreigner in top 10??
I would not put Innovation at #1 and I would not put Scarlett at #10. The only two zergs who I would put in the top 10 are Jaedong and Soulkey. Innovation has not played well in August and Scarlett has largely been playing ZvT. Ranking Scarlett in the top 10 is an insult to all the great players in WCS Korea Code S and Code A who don't get the recognition they deserve because they are playing in such a difficult region. I mean just look at all the names in Code S and Code A who won't make the top 10. There are players like Symbol, Parting, Flash, Super, Dongraegu, Losira, Byun, Life, Leenock, etc. All of these players would easily be some of the favorites to win either WCS America or Europe.
Scarlett barely lost 2-3 to the best ZvZ in the world, second best TvZ behind Soulkey(I mean really, she crushed Maru and played absolutely fantastic vs Bomber who 4-0'd Jaedong), and we don't have any ZvP to really judge. However she's consistantly too 16 in KR gm. I actually think she's better than all the players you just mentioned except maybe Super.
Maru is not known for his TvZ and neither is Bomber. In fact, TvZ is Bomber's worst match up while it is Scarlett's best. Secondly, being ranked top 16 on KR GM is nice but it doesn't mean a whole lot. CoCa, who had taken a 6+ month hiatus from SC2 last year was able to reach rank 1 on KR GM again after only being back for a few months in HotS. Byul, who is largely under the radar has been rank 1 recently. Nobody here would consider putting him in a top 10 power rank. Finally, I'm not sure how you can say that Scarlett is better than the players I just listed. Symbol has consistently made it to the round of 8 in the past few Code S seasons, Parting won the WCG Korean qualifier, and both Dongraegu and Life have beaten Scarlett in the past month, with Dongraegu making it into Code S.
EPT
ST_Life: Life gets a special mention for winning a tournament.
Samsung_JangBi: The KHAN ace continues to have one the best winrates in HotS but manages to lose just enough games so that he never actually manages to accomplish anything substantial.
KT_Flash: Being the only player to perform in the Proleague playoffs for KT wasn't enough to get Flash on the Power Rank this month. His disappointing exit from the OSL put a huge damper on his image and his past laurels and achievements were just not enough to put him through. ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/1101.jpg)
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jd probably should ve been mentioned except his attrocious zvp he is actually looking like a good player right now
. . . 
INnoVation is the only player from Season 1 Finals to requalify (for S2 Finals) so far. ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/mirror/smilies/pukey.gif)
