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On August 08 2013 01:08 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 01:07 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 08 2013 01:05 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On August 08 2013 01:02 Iyerbeth wrote:
I'm not willing to just cross any line for esports, so I won't be watching unless they change that law by then. Got some time at least, hopefully this can just end up as a cool event for Russia. With what law you have problems? The 'gay propaganda' one. Seems only fair that if I encourage the boycott of the 2014 Winter Olympics I should give this a miss too. Lol get real... the only organization you're hurting is DreamHack
Not really. They can choose another venue with ease, do you really think any European country would turn away legitimate business? And if we stand up and show Dreamhack that we're not comfortable with this, we send a message that we want and are trying to make the e-Sports scene an inclusive space for everyone. Will this affect Russian lawmakers? Eh, yes, a small token gesture like this adds up in the long term. Even if e-Sports isn't high on their priority list, business and their international reputation is.
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On August 08 2013 02:12 Mauldo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 00:57 phipsL wrote:On August 08 2013 00:32 Mauldo wrote:On August 08 2013 00:06 arterian wrote:
I guess we can rule out Scarlett attending. Quoted for truth. I'm not going to watch a tourney that takes place in a country where players are precluded by law in such a vile way. I guess kudos on the planning it took, but Russia's been mulling the anti-LGBT "propaganda" law for a while now. You consciously decided to not give a shit when you planned the thing, so I consciously decided not to watch. what does that have to do with scarlett? I'm just going to assume that's an honest question. I'm linking directly to Stephen Fry's open letter concerning the Winter Olympics in Russia, and the anti-LGBT propaganda law: Found Here. In it, he explains that we should not as a world community show Russia that we support them enough to hold something as world-defining as the Winter Olympic games in their country after they have shown such blatant disregard for the LGBT community. Such a vile, direct attack against a group of people should not be support by the IOC, or the world at large. As Stephen Fry says: Show nested quote +Putin is eerily repeating [Hitler's crimes/attitudes/blatant scapegoating with Jews], only this time against LGBT Russians. Beatings, murders and humiliations are ignored by the police. Any defence or sane discussion of homosexuality is against the law. Any statement, for example, that Tchaikovsky was gay and that his art and life reflects this sexuality and are an inspiration to other gay artists would be punishable by imprisonment. It is simply not enough to say that gay Olympians may or may not be safe in their village. The IOC absolutely must take a firm stance on behalf of the shared humanity it is supposed to represent against the barbaric, fascist law that Putin has pushed through the Duma. Let us not forget that Olympic events used not only to be athletic, they used to include cultural competitions. Let us realise that in fact, sport is cultural. It does not exist in a bubble outside society or politics. The idea that sport and politics don’t connect is worse than disingenuous, worse than stupid. It is wickedly, wilfully wrong. Everyone knows politics interconnects with everything for “politics” is simply the Greek for “to do with the people”. That is why Scarlett probably couldn't go to Dreamhack. She is an open transgender, and any open defense of her lifestyle is AGAINST THE LAW. We shouldn't show support to any company that would hold their tournament in a location so hostile to one of our own. I don't know if Scarlett was even going to attend, but who cares. The simple fact is that even if she wanted to, she shouldn't in concern for HER LIFE. I refuse to take part in anything that comes from such a blatant attempt to scapegoat, marginalize, and criminalize a community.
Yes, I know this law and non friendly atmosphere for gays etc. in russia.
But what I didn't know was that Scarlett is transgender...I doubt many even knows.
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On August 08 2013 01:58 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 01:36 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On August 08 2013 01:23 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 08 2013 01:21 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On August 08 2013 01:18 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 08 2013 01:12 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On August 08 2013 01:09 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 08 2013 01:08 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On August 08 2013 01:07 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 08 2013 01:05 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
[quote]
With what law you have problems? The 'gay propaganda' one. Seems only fair that if I encourage the boycott of the 2014 Winter Olympics I should give this a miss too. Lol get real... the only organization you're hurting is DreamHack Do I think Russia will care? Nope. Do I think businesses might reconsider doing business in Russia if people then don't use the service, maybe. They might care about that. Even if nothing changes, I care more about my principles than how much I might 'hurt esports'. Yeah fuck Russia! And fuck the poor SC2 fans who just wanted to have a big brand tournament like DreamHack run an open in their country! DreamHack shouldn't be doing business in a country where the corrupt government (that in no way, shape or form represents the opinion of the actual people) gets to pass bullshit laws! really dude? really? If it in no way represents the opinion on the people, which I hope is correct, it shouldn't be a problem repealing the law. And no, they shouldn't be doing business with them. It sucks for SC2 fans in Russia, but I think they can probably deal with not having a DreamHack easier than LGBT people can put up with the crap they're getting. You're implying the people have any actual power over this, which they don't. I see you're from the UK, so you're probably not familiar with how things work in good ol' ex-communist Eastern Europe.... How they work in PRACTICE, not in theory, that is. That sounds like all the more reason to put pressure on the government by boycotting Russian events. Alright. I've tried to help you make an educated and informed decision. If you don't wish to, that's fine as well. But I guarantee that your perspective on this entire issue is far from realistic and won't get anything done. Please don't pretend that your opinion is the only 'educated and informed' one. There are boycotts of vodka and attempts at boycotts or removal of the winter olympics because external pressure does work. Your position seems to be the Russian people don't like the law, but can't do anything about it and so we should just ignore it? If so, I disagree.
I'm not pretending that my opinion is the only educated and informed one. But yours is most certainly a pipe-dream, and it contradicts the reality that both I and pretty much everyone I know throughout Eastern Europe (and Russia most of all) experience every day and have been experiencing for years.
And I'm not saying that we should ignore it. All I'm saying is that "boycotting" DreamHack Moscow in and of itself will produce literally no results of any description in the long run pertaining to this or any socio-political situation in Russia. What you're doing is like trying to cool down a massive ocean of molten lava by throwing a snowball at it. All you're doing is melting the snowball. If you want to boycott something, boycott the Olympics (if you think there's actually any power behind that) or something at least remotely significant.
But at the end of the day it's pointless to try to explain it to someone who has never lived in one of these countries and doesn't know how things actually work. I wish you good luck in your endeavours.
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So why nobody suggested to boycott China? Oh, they don't have stupid oppresive laws? They tolerate LGBT and free speach? Ok then, nevermind!
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On August 08 2013 02:34 Alexj wrote:
So why nobody suggested to boycott China? Oh, they don't have stupid oppresive laws? They tolerate LGBT and free speach? Ok then, nevermind!
That's the nature of protest. People protest change more than existing conditions. Obviously China should be protested for various issues, too, but there are various reasons why protesting Russia's recent changes is more important.
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On August 08 2013 02:30 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 01:58 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 08 2013 01:36 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On August 08 2013 01:23 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 08 2013 01:21 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On August 08 2013 01:18 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 08 2013 01:12 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On August 08 2013 01:09 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 08 2013 01:08 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On August 08 2013 01:07 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
The 'gay propaganda' one. Seems only fair that if I encourage the boycott of the 2014 Winter Olympics I should give this a miss too. Lol get real... the only organization you're hurting is DreamHack Do I think Russia will care? Nope. Do I think businesses might reconsider doing business in Russia if people then don't use the service, maybe. They might care about that. Even if nothing changes, I care more about my principles than how much I might 'hurt esports'. Yeah fuck Russia! And fuck the poor SC2 fans who just wanted to have a big brand tournament like DreamHack run an open in their country! DreamHack shouldn't be doing business in a country where the corrupt government (that in no way, shape or form represents the opinion of the actual people) gets to pass bullshit laws! really dude? really? If it in no way represents the opinion on the people, which I hope is correct, it shouldn't be a problem repealing the law. And no, they shouldn't be doing business with them. It sucks for SC2 fans in Russia, but I think they can probably deal with not having a DreamHack easier than LGBT people can put up with the crap they're getting. You're implying the people have any actual power over this, which they don't. I see you're from the UK, so you're probably not familiar with how things work in good ol' ex-communist Eastern Europe.... How they work in PRACTICE, not in theory, that is. That sounds like all the more reason to put pressure on the government by boycotting Russian events. Alright. I've tried to help you make an educated and informed decision. If you don't wish to, that's fine as well. But I guarantee that your perspective on this entire issue is far from realistic and won't get anything done. Please don't pretend that your opinion is the only 'educated and informed' one. There are boycotts of vodka and attempts at boycotts or removal of the winter olympics because external pressure does work. Your position seems to be the Russian people don't like the law, but can't do anything about it and so we should just ignore it? If so, I disagree. I'm not pretending that my opinion is the only educated and informed one. But yours is most certainly a pipe-dream, and it contradicts the reality that both I and pretty much everyone I know throughout Eastern Europe (and Russia most of all) experience every day and have been experiencing for years. And I'm not saying that we should ignore it. All I'm saying is that "boycotting" DreamHack Moscow in and of itself will produce literally no results of any description in the long run pertaining to this or any socio-political situation in Russia. What you're doing is like trying to cool down a massive ocean of molten lava by throwing a snowball at it. All you're doing is melting the snowball. If you want to boycott something, boycott the Olympics (if you think there's actually any power behind that) or something at least remotely significant. But at the end of the day it's pointless to try to explain it to someone who has never lived in one of these countries and doesn't know how things actually work. I wish you good luck in your endeavours.
Again, boycotting this will produce results, it sends a message to all the LGBT e-Sports fans in our community that we stand behind them and support them, it sends a message to Dreamhack that the e-Sports community is an inclusive one which doesn't tolerate discrimination and if they can't respect that through their choice of venue then they have no place here, and even if there's no massive socio-political shift in Russia because of the venue change of an e-Sports event, it's another black mark on their reputation. Opening up a newspaper and seeing that even an e-Sports event took a stand against Russian lawmakers does mean something, if you don't think it does then you're in the same isolated bubble as those Russian lawmakers.
And for those who say "Don't mix e-Sports and politics", you seriously need to get some perspective. I suggest starting off by reading the Stephen Fry letter which has already been linked in this thread, which I've linked again here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/stephen-fry/stephen-fry-open-letter-to-david-cameron_b_3718389.html
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On August 08 2013 02:35 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 02:34 Alexj wrote:
So why nobody suggested to boycott China? Oh, they don't have stupid oppresive laws? They tolerate LGBT and free speach? Ok then, nevermind! That's the nature of protest. People protest change more than existing conditions. Obviously China should be protested for various issues, too, but there are various reasons why protesting Russia's recent changes is more important. So let's boycott everything Russia for a year or so, and then it'll be ok?
Well DH Moscow is more than year away anyway. And let's be honest: year from now everyone will forget how hip it is to hate Russia for homophobia
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On August 08 2013 02:40 Alexj wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 02:35 Conti wrote:On August 08 2013 02:34 Alexj wrote:
So why nobody suggested to boycott China? Oh, they don't have stupid oppresive laws? They tolerate LGBT and free speach? Ok then, nevermind! That's the nature of protest. People protest change more than existing conditions. Obviously China should be protested for various issues, too, but there are various reasons why protesting Russia's recent changes is more important. So let's boycott everything Russia for a year or so, and then it'll be ok? Well DH Moscow is more than year away anyway. And let's be honest: year from now everyone will forget how hip it is to hate Russia for homophobia
Quite likely, and quite the pity. Realistically speaking, protesting DH will have virtually zero impact, even if the equally unlikely scenario of DH being cancelled would occur. But, personally, I still wish some players would speak out and decline a invitation to DH Moscow.
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On August 08 2013 02:34 Alexj wrote:
So why nobody suggested to boycott China? Oh, they don't have stupid oppresive laws? They tolerate LGBT and free speach? Ok then, nevermind!
Yeah why not? I have no idea what you're trying to say here, it's not like we can only protest against one issue...they're not mutually exclusive.
If you're talking about why are we getting so energised over the LGBT issue it's because there are a lot of LGBT SC2/e-Sports fans who are alienated by this. The treatment of the LGBT community in Russia is a hot topic issue right now, so it baffles the mind why Dreamhack would ignore part of their fan base and take this decision.
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By placing the tournament in Russia, they effectively blocked several top players and high-level people in esports from participating. I'm afraid I can't tune in to this.
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Ah yes, Teamliquid, my daily source of political discussion
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Robert Ohlen tweeted that he was considering taking the dreamhack brand abroad if a party that has been democratically elected and that he considers racist gains votes this election. Then he does and hosts a tournament in a country that would prosecute one of our most beloved players for just being herself.
I wish I could be happier about an announcement like this but with todays ongoings in russia it's impossible.
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Get your politics out of esports, thx.
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On August 08 2013 02:45 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
By placing the tournament in Russia, they effectively blocked several top players and high-level people in esports from participating. I'm afraid I can't tune in to this.
When you place an event like this in China or USA, you also block a sizeable amount of people to participate, due to visa issues. At least Dreamhack are announcing these tournaments in advance
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So sick of this pro-gay/anti-gay crap.
DH Moscow sounds awesome.
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Why didn't anybody boycott the international or WCS because America is snooping on everyone/putting people in jail without trial.
People need to grow up. These anti-gay / pro- gay people are so annoying. They remind me of Jehovah witnesses. Everything's turned into an anti/pro gay issue.
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On August 08 2013 02:34 Alexj wrote:
So why nobody suggested to boycott China? Oh, they don't have stupid oppresive laws? They tolerate LGBT and free speach? Ok then, nevermind!
Because Scarlett, for example, went to China just fine.
But, if we judge by Sochi example, she is apparently to be arrested if she goes to Russia.
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On August 08 2013 03:01 sekritzzz wrote:
Why didn't anybody boycott the international or WCS because America is snooping on everyone/putting people in jail without trial.
People need to grow up. These anti-gay / pro- gay people are so annoying. They remind me of Jehovah witnesses. Everything's turned into an anti/pro gay issue.
Haha, love this,.America is one of the most corrupt nations in the developed world, with a President committing war crimes in the Middle East, arresting his own citizens without a trial, and committing massive violations of The Constitution,
Don't be hypocrites now.
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Wow all this Russia hate again, get real. Every powerful country does *a lot* of dodgy shit, Russia just gets more flack in the media because Russia is traditionally portrayed as "evil" by the west. By not watching this you're only hurting the organizations that work very hard to provide us with quality content and expand esports awareness.
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EPT
