|
On July 24 2013 00:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 00:17 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2013 23:57 Plansix wrote:On July 23 2013 23:52 Talin wrote:On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote:
Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals? I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying". Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf. Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels. I think that is true for TL members, but we are only one section of the whole community(maybe the largest). I don't know about the people who love Husky, or the r/starcraft groups. The cross over is huge for TL and the super hardcore players, that is for sure. But I also think the people on TL are just as likely to have two streams open at once.
If you look on r/starcraft, you can see that almost every person commenting on this is against it. I have no idea about the people who love Husky, but r/starcraft & TL are easily the biggest groups of eSports-following Sc2 players. Also, given how awful Twitch functions when there are huge tournaments on, I doubt anyone is going to be opening more than one stream; we'll be lucky if one stream functions well.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data.
But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
It doesn't really matter about DotA/Sc2 being similar; the fact of the matter is that there is a huge overlap in the scenes of both games. This is obvious from even a cursory browsing of TL & r/starcraft. What's more, the International isn't just for DotA fans. [b]Everyone watches the International, because it's a massive event which showcases how eSports is reaching new heights. Even people who don't know/care about DotA's professional scene end up tuning in to the International, because it's just too damn big to ignore. It's not just me speculating about this, either; take a look at the previous runs of the International. They were all massive, and even pros from other games were watching them in awe and admiration. It's just one of those events that's so massive that it ends up drawing a crowd from everywhere. [/u]
|
On July 24 2013 00:13 theking1 wrote:
dota2 and sc2 and lol were at the same time at dreamhack stockholm.What happened?Record number of stream viewers and a packed house for all 3 games.League of legends and sc2 and cod at the same time at the last mlg.What happened?Record number of viewers and packed house for all 3 games.Countless dota2 tournies running along side sc2 tournies and lol tournies.What happens?Growing number of viewers for all games.Overlapping does not necesasary mean less viewers.Other factors such as entertainment value come into play.I would not be surprised if this years wcs regional finals get more viewers than last years regional wcs finals.Of course people will come and say sc2 is dead since it did not beat the international number of viewers but sponsors and people involved will notice the actual increase in viewership.
I understand what are you saying, but let me ask, last WCS overall final production how good it was? downtime? anything else? The International 2012 was praised how smooth it was, this year it will probably be much more smoother(Valve learns from his mistakes[no pun intended]). So if you want a good weekend product you will probably choose one over another(with ocasional overlaps). Oh, and NO 2 different game final(DHS13) was at the same time. And you forget about the difference in magnitude of the events
|
On July 24 2013 00:53 theking1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 00:43 snarl wrote:On July 24 2013 00:13 theking1 wrote:
dota2 and sc2 and lol were at the same time at dreamhack stockholm.What happened?Record number of stream viewers and a packed house for all 3 games.League of legends and sc2 and cod at the same time at the last mlg.What happened?Record number of viewers and packed house for all 3 games.Countless dota2 tournies running along side sc2 tournies and lol tournies.What happens?Growing number of viewers for all games.Overlapping does not necesasary mean less viewers.Other factors such as entertainment value come into play.I would not be surprised if this years wcs regional finals get more viewers than last years regional wcs finals.Of course people will come and say sc2 is dead since it did not beat the international number of viewers but sponsors and people involved will notice the actual increase in viewership.
Viewership for WCS prolly won't take as big a hit as people are saying. After all, many people will tune in to WCS during breaks or downtime from Bo3's that end 2-0. But the DH comparison with Ti3 is a little unfair to say the least. DH didn't have any Asian teams. DH didn't have storylines that have been building since the end of Ti2 and will climax and conclude at Ti3. DH didn't have an All-star match or 1v1 solo mid competition that fans get to vote for ingame. DH 1st place: 21k, Ti3 8th place: $25k. It's just not even close. You would be quite surprise but having chinesse teams isnt a good thing for viewership since most foreign fans want to see foreign teams compete against each other.The only storyline that could be interesting would be a foreign teamaka navi and beating chinesse and that is about it.If it is going to turn in chinesse teams slaughtering everyone else the foreign viewership will go down.As a sc2 fan I see what happens to viewership when koreans dominate everything. And dremahack is a good example of why concurrent video games and get record numbers of viewers even though both are at the same time.It is a very well organized even with many good foreign teams.Prizepool for me does not matter.I do not get excited to see how rich asian people get 
You realize,that the last two big Championships in China were won by EU teams ? (NaVi,[A]lliance)
EDIT: (where western teams were included obv)
|
On July 24 2013 00:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 00:42 neurosx wrote:On July 24 2013 00:32 TeeTS wrote:On July 24 2013 00:26 c0ldfusion wrote:On July 24 2013 00:17 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2013 23:57 Plansix wrote:On July 23 2013 23:52 Talin wrote:On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote:
Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals? I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying". Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf. Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels. I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators? To me, they're no less different than golf and football. Dunno if Blizzard wants to hurt Valve specifically, but to call a dota2 tournament the "Super Bowl of esport" is for sure wrong. Dota2 numbers so far have been far behind those for LoL and SC2. From my point of view, this might be hurting DotA more than SC2, but I understand Blizzard, having trouble to find a date, that doesn't collide with anything. So at least they didn't colide with another big SC2 event  Yeah .. no. Its really Blizzard shotting itself in the foot right here. You have to realize that player that aren't hardcore on one game will obviously watch the biggest tournament between both. And yeah last year TI2 peaked at 570k concurrent viewers, and like 1.5mil uniques. Wouldn't be surprised if TI3 could break 800/900k concurrent, maybe even a million. I'd be genuinely surprised if WCS Broke 80k with all 3 regions at the same time tbh. Well it is the once a year event for Dota 2 against the regional finals for SC2 for three seperate regions. Its not even the World Finals for Season 2, which are 2 weeks after that. Even LoL would be blown out of the water if it held is regional finals during TI3.
Oh yeah totally agree, It's just that this guy was saying it hurts DotA more than SC2 and that's really not the case
|
Sucks for people that want to watch TI3/WCS EU/AM I guess. Makes no difference to me though since I'll just watch OSL on GOM (since twitch will likely make everything unwatchable as usual for a lot of Europeans) and probably not bother with anything else.
|
On July 24 2013 00:56 Crytash wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 00:53 theking1 wrote:On July 24 2013 00:43 snarl wrote:On July 24 2013 00:13 theking1 wrote:
dota2 and sc2 and lol were at the same time at dreamhack stockholm.What happened?Record number of stream viewers and a packed house for all 3 games.League of legends and sc2 and cod at the same time at the last mlg.What happened?Record number of viewers and packed house for all 3 games.Countless dota2 tournies running along side sc2 tournies and lol tournies.What happens?Growing number of viewers for all games.Overlapping does not necesasary mean less viewers.Other factors such as entertainment value come into play.I would not be surprised if this years wcs regional finals get more viewers than last years regional wcs finals.Of course people will come and say sc2 is dead since it did not beat the international number of viewers but sponsors and people involved will notice the actual increase in viewership.
Viewership for WCS prolly won't take as big a hit as people are saying. After all, many people will tune in to WCS during breaks or downtime from Bo3's that end 2-0. But the DH comparison with Ti3 is a little unfair to say the least. DH didn't have any Asian teams. DH didn't have storylines that have been building since the end of Ti2 and will climax and conclude at Ti3. DH didn't have an All-star match or 1v1 solo mid competition that fans get to vote for ingame. DH 1st place: 21k, Ti3 8th place: $25k. It's just not even close. You would be quite surprise but having chinesse teams isnt a good thing for viewership since most foreign fans want to see foreign teams compete against each other.The only storyline that could be interesting would be a foreign teamaka navi and beating chinesse and that is about it.If it is going to turn in chinesse teams slaughtering everyone else the foreign viewership will go down.As a sc2 fan I see what happens to viewership when koreans dominate everything. And dremahack is a good example of why concurrent video games and get record numbers of viewers even though both are at the same time.It is a very well organized even with many good foreign teams.Prizepool for me does not matter.I do not get excited to see how rich asian people get You realize,that the last two big Championships in China were won by EU teams ? (NaVi,[A]lliance)
You have to be pretty deep in the Dota 2 scene to notice that the EU teams have stepped it up big time. The grind of 3-8 cups running at once for 10-15K has really forced them improve. Also the new drafting system really favors teams with a strong captian and strong supports that can deal with a less than ideal line up of heroes.
|
On July 24 2013 00:44 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 00:26 c0ldfusion wrote:On July 24 2013 00:17 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2013 23:57 Plansix wrote:On July 23 2013 23:52 Talin wrote:On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote:
Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals? I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying". Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf. Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels. I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators? To me, they're no less different than golf and football. They're closer to basketball and football in the context of American sports. Games don't have to be similar, because people don't have uniform interests. In fact, overlap would arguably be smaller if the games were similar or part of the same genre. Even if we disregard the actual games, the very magnitude of events would naturally draw in people that haven't watched before or don't watch regularly to check them out. They don't have to know, understand, or even like the game initially. I first watched Dota as a Starcraft fan during the TI2. There were only two things I knew about the game - that Black Hole was a big deal, and that the watery hero is important for the late game. I watched it anyway because the production, commentary, and the energy of a live crowd created an amazing atmosphere.
There isn't a huge overlap among basketball and football fans here.
But actually I agree with you on your other comment. I think in terms of newer viewers, this will likely turn more of them to TI3 than WCS. Like you, I casually took a peek at TI2 when it aired. Though I haven't watched any DotA since. That would be an impact but I'm not sure how big the casual viewership is and how likely it is for either TI3 or WCS to convert them to regular/hardcore fans.
|
The time is perfect for me.:D Don't really follow Dota 2 anyway.
|
On July 24 2013 00:55 Turbulencedota wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 00:13 theking1 wrote:
dota2 and sc2 and lol were at the same time at dreamhack stockholm.What happened?Record number of stream viewers and a packed house for all 3 games.League of legends and sc2 and cod at the same time at the last mlg.What happened?Record number of viewers and packed house for all 3 games.Countless dota2 tournies running along side sc2 tournies and lol tournies.What happens?Growing number of viewers for all games.Overlapping does not necesasary mean less viewers.Other factors such as entertainment value come into play.I would not be surprised if this years wcs regional finals get more viewers than last years regional wcs finals.Of course people will come and say sc2 is dead since it did not beat the international number of viewers but sponsors and people involved will notice the actual increase in viewership.
I understand what are you saying, but let me ask, last WCS overall final production how good it was? downtime? anything else? The International 2012 was praised how smooth it was, this year it will probably be much more smoother(Valve learns from his mistakes[no pun intended]). So if you want a good weekend product you will probably choose one over another(with ocasional overlaps). Oh, and NO 2 different game final(DHS13) was at the same time. And you forget about the difference in magnitude of the events
Last years wcs europe production was excellent and praised.wcas korea production was always top notch given the professionalism in korea.Moreover this years korean wcs will be organzied by OGN which is an actual television with a studio and always has high production value.Unfortunately they do not get many viewers on twitch for reason beyond my comprehension.Last years wcs na was preety bad with the entire mlg debacle but this year nasl is raganizing and it is looking good.Only downside: too many koreans .
By your logic sc2 should not have any viewers at dremhack and mlg since it is always overlapping with lol and dota2.Fans of starcraft2 will watch sc2 and fans of dota 2 will watch dota,And fans of both will keep 2 windows open in their browser like I am going to do.1 window for the sc2 fun and 1 window for the dota2 fun.And whenever I see something interesting in 1 of them i will turn the volume down in the other but I will always have both streams open to support viewership for both dota2 and sc2
|
On July 24 2013 00:53 theking1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 00:43 snarl wrote:On July 24 2013 00:13 theking1 wrote:
dota2 and sc2 and lol were at the same time at dreamhack stockholm.What happened?Record number of stream viewers and a packed house for all 3 games.League of legends and sc2 and cod at the same time at the last mlg.What happened?Record number of viewers and packed house for all 3 games.Countless dota2 tournies running along side sc2 tournies and lol tournies.What happens?Growing number of viewers for all games.Overlapping does not necesasary mean less viewers.Other factors such as entertainment value come into play.I would not be surprised if this years wcs regional finals get more viewers than last years regional wcs finals.Of course people will come and say sc2 is dead since it did not beat the international number of viewers but sponsors and people involved will notice the actual increase in viewership.
Viewership for WCS prolly won't take as big a hit as people are saying. After all, many people will tune in to WCS during breaks or downtime from Bo3's that end 2-0. But the DH comparison with Ti3 is a little unfair to say the least. DH didn't have any Asian teams. DH didn't have storylines that have been building since the end of Ti2 and will climax and conclude at Ti3. DH didn't have an All-star match or 1v1 solo mid competition that fans get to vote for ingame. DH 1st place: 21k, Ti3 8th place: $25k. It's just not even close. You would be quite surprise but having chinesse teams isnt a good thing for viewership since most foreign fans want to see foreign teams compete against each other.The only storyline that could be interesting would be a foreign teamaka navi and beating chinesse and that is about it.If it is going to turn in chinesse teams slaughtering everyone else the foreign viewership will go down.As a sc2 fan I see what happens to viewership when koreans dominate everything. And dremahack is a good example of why concurrent video games and get record numbers of viewers even though both are at the same time.It is a very well organized even with many good foreign teams.Prizepool for me does not matter.I do not get excited to see how rich asian people get
Then all the more reason for you and people who think like you to tune in to Ti3, because the chance of a Western team winning Ti3 is as high as it's been since Asia nearly swept the top 8 at Ti2. In the last 2 months, two Western teams have gone to China and won two tournaments larger than DH. If that doesn't hype even the most hardcore single-scene fanboy to be glued to Ti3, what will? DH also gets good peak numbers because the most hyped matches tend to be the grand finals, which afaik are never played simultaneously. DH also has plenty of rematches between Western teams that play each other fairly frequently every week. But a match like NaVi vs LGD China? First time they met since Ti2 was 2 weeks ago
|
On July 24 2013 01:04 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 00:44 Talin wrote:On July 24 2013 00:26 c0ldfusion wrote:On July 24 2013 00:17 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2013 23:57 Plansix wrote:On July 23 2013 23:52 Talin wrote:On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote:
Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals? I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying". Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf. Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels. I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators? To me, they're no less different than golf and football. They're closer to basketball and football in the context of American sports. Games don't have to be similar, because people don't have uniform interests. In fact, overlap would arguably be smaller if the games were similar or part of the same genre. Even if we disregard the actual games, the very magnitude of events would naturally draw in people that haven't watched before or don't watch regularly to check them out. They don't have to know, understand, or even like the game initially. I first watched Dota as a Starcraft fan during the TI2. There were only two things I knew about the game - that Black Hole was a big deal, and that the watery hero is important for the late game. I watched it anyway because the production, commentary, and the energy of a live crowd created an amazing atmosphere. There isn't a huge overlap among basketball and football fans here. But actually I agree with you on your other comment. I think in terms of newer viewers, this will likely turn more of them to TI3 than WCS. Like you, I casually took a peek at TI2 when it aired. Though I haven't watched any DotA since. That would be an impact but I'm not sure how big the casual viewership is and how likely it is for either TI3 or WCS to convert them to regular/hardcore fans.
Wait what? I don't really know anyone that watches football and doesn't at least watch basketball on a semi-regular basis or vice versa.
|
On July 23 2013 22:30 Pr0wler wrote:
So now Blizzard should care about Dota 2 tournaments as well ? That is complete nonsense. It is hard enough to dodge all of the big SC2 tournaments... Now you want from them to dodge TI3, whats next ? LCS ? What about not doing tournaments at all, because there is so much tournaments for the other games ? If you want to watch TI3 - watch TI3, if you want to watch SC2 - watch WCS. Yes, it's that easy.
Guess what... On the same dates a round of the bulgarian football league is played. I don't thing that any eSports tournament should overlap with that. Cancel all the tournaments now !!!
Why don't more people think like we do?
|
On July 24 2013 01:05 Wildmoon wrote:
The time is perfect for me.:D Don't really follow Dota 2 anyway.
You're in great shape then... so long as TI3 + WCS doesn't cause twitch to crap out.
|
On July 24 2013 01:25 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 01:04 c0ldfusion wrote:On July 24 2013 00:44 Talin wrote:On July 24 2013 00:26 c0ldfusion wrote:On July 24 2013 00:17 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2013 23:57 Plansix wrote:On July 23 2013 23:52 Talin wrote:On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote:
Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals? I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying". Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf. Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels. I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators? To me, they're no less different than golf and football. They're closer to basketball and football in the context of American sports. Games don't have to be similar, because people don't have uniform interests. In fact, overlap would arguably be smaller if the games were similar or part of the same genre. Even if we disregard the actual games, the very magnitude of events would naturally draw in people that haven't watched before or don't watch regularly to check them out. They don't have to know, understand, or even like the game initially. I first watched Dota as a Starcraft fan during the TI2. There were only two things I knew about the game - that Black Hole was a big deal, and that the watery hero is important for the late game. I watched it anyway because the production, commentary, and the energy of a live crowd created an amazing atmosphere. There isn't a huge overlap among basketball and football fans here. But actually I agree with you on your other comment. I think in terms of newer viewers, this will likely turn more of them to TI3 than WCS. Like you, I casually took a peek at TI2 when it aired. Though I haven't watched any DotA since. That would be an impact but I'm not sure how big the casual viewership is and how likely it is for either TI3 or WCS to convert them to regular/hardcore fans. Wait what? I don't really know anyone that watches football and doesn't at least watch basketball on a semi-regular basis or vice versa.
Most people do not watch all major league sports. I know a few people who watch hockey, baseball and some football, but all of those have different seasons and they only watch games for their team. And stuff is held on the on the same day all the time. Division finals can run on the same day as another championship(though the seasons do not line up).
|
On July 23 2013 22:52 Resilient wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 22:43 ratbert wrote:
so in fact you guys are worried that the numbers are going to be low? what difference does it make to you if theres 50k watching or 10k ? the games are not going to be of less quality because there's less people watching. i guess it's the "the sky is falling"-mentality all over again.
the only concern i understand is from people who would love to watch both events. but the sky wont fall and blizzard didn't kill sc2 because the sc2 stream is missing 50% of it's viewers because there's TI3 on Low viewership might not matter to you, but it matters to Blizzard and more importantly, sponsors of teams, tournaments and in general, the scene. If WCS, Blizzard's premier tournament gets embarassed by TI3 (they already are with this PR nonsense) then there will be less investment in the scene. Even Riot, the most egotistical company around were smart enough to schedule around TI3, their biggest rival. Blizard not doing the same is the same as falling on your sword. Viewership matters. A lot.
The thing is that nobody expects the regional finals to compete with TI3, even saying the seasonal finals were is a huge stretch. The only thing it can be compared to is Blizzcon. Which is the reason for this scheduling in the first place.
|
Oh boy...
At first I thought, okay, they're having the Korea, Europe, and America finals all on the same weekend, so maybe 4 hours left out of the day to catch some sleep.
But then I hear it is the very weekend of The International?!
I'm speechless...
|
On July 24 2013 01:36 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 01:25 ragz_gt wrote:On July 24 2013 01:04 c0ldfusion wrote:On July 24 2013 00:44 Talin wrote:On July 24 2013 00:26 c0ldfusion wrote:On July 24 2013 00:17 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2013 23:57 Plansix wrote:On July 23 2013 23:52 Talin wrote:On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote:
Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals? I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying". Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf. Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels. I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators? To me, they're no less different than golf and football. They're closer to basketball and football in the context of American sports. Games don't have to be similar, because people don't have uniform interests. In fact, overlap would arguably be smaller if the games were similar or part of the same genre. Even if we disregard the actual games, the very magnitude of events would naturally draw in people that haven't watched before or don't watch regularly to check them out. They don't have to know, understand, or even like the game initially. I first watched Dota as a Starcraft fan during the TI2. There were only two things I knew about the game - that Black Hole was a big deal, and that the watery hero is important for the late game. I watched it anyway because the production, commentary, and the energy of a live crowd created an amazing atmosphere. There isn't a huge overlap among basketball and football fans here. But actually I agree with you on your other comment. I think in terms of newer viewers, this will likely turn more of them to TI3 than WCS. Like you, I casually took a peek at TI2 when it aired. Though I haven't watched any DotA since. That would be an impact but I'm not sure how big the casual viewership is and how likely it is for either TI3 or WCS to convert them to regular/hardcore fans. Wait what? I don't really know anyone that watches football and doesn't at least watch basketball on a semi-regular basis or vice versa. Most people do not watch all major league sports. I know a few people who watch hockey, baseball and some football, but all of those have different seasons and they only watch games for their team. And stuff is held on the on the same day all the time. Division finals can run on the same day as another championship(though the seasons do not line up).
Wouldn't TI3 be a better comparison with the Super Bowl though? It's a once a year event with a massive prizepool and it's really the big Dota2 Tournament of the whole year. All TV networks try to avoid scheduling anything remotely important during the Super Bowl, even those that don't show sports.
Obviously TI3 is nowhere near as big as American Football, but in the world of esports it seems like if there was an equivalent to the Super Bowl, where you would try to avoid overlapping anything remotely important, it'd be TI3 and the LoL World Finals.
The decision is just weird. Total Biscuit was saying on Reddit that one of the big problems here is companies investing in esports are going to look at stream numbers and come to the conclusion that investing in Dota makes more sense than investing in SC2 since there's no way in hell that WCS will be able to come close to competing with TI3. Even if there isn't huge viewer overlap, it looks pretty bad to be totally overshadowed by another game when you're showing your finals. To go back to the sports comparison, hockey team owners don't like it when basketball games get a much bigger audience, even if those people don't like hockey, because it's bad for business.
|
If Blizzard is taking anything from this whole ordeal, it's at least to consider having a backup stream like Valve has done (despite already having the best spectator client by far). Twitch is likely to die, and is already garbage for EU. Heres hoping they have the sense to ask Youtube.
|
On July 24 2013 01:39 KnadRa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 22:52 Resilient wrote:On July 23 2013 22:43 ratbert wrote:
so in fact you guys are worried that the numbers are going to be low? what difference does it make to you if theres 50k watching or 10k ? the games are not going to be of less quality because there's less people watching. i guess it's the "the sky is falling"-mentality all over again.
the only concern i understand is from people who would love to watch both events. but the sky wont fall and blizzard didn't kill sc2 because the sc2 stream is missing 50% of it's viewers because there's TI3 on Low viewership might not matter to you, but it matters to Blizzard and more importantly, sponsors of teams, tournaments and in general, the scene. If WCS, Blizzard's premier tournament gets embarassed by TI3 (they already are with this PR nonsense) then there will be less investment in the scene. Even Riot, the most egotistical company around were smart enough to schedule around TI3, their biggest rival. Blizard not doing the same is the same as falling on your sword. Viewership matters. A lot. The thing is that nobody expects the regional finals to compete with TI3, even saying the seasonal finals were is a huge stretch. The only thing it can be compared to is Blizzcon. Which is the reason for this scheduling in the first place.
Yeah, at the current state of the scene WCS EU and AM regional finals are not even in the top 10 of the most important events of the year, screwing some of them up is not that important.
Things that are a tier up compared to WCS EU/AM regionals this year:
- Blizzcon Finals
- Global Season finals 1
- Global Season finals 2
- Global Season finals 3
- GSL Season 1
- WCS KR Season 1
- WCS KR Season 2
- WCS KR Season 3
- 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter
- IEM Season VII - World Championship
- 2013 MLG Winter Championship
- There were reports of a bigger MLG at the end of the year ( 2011 Providence style )
|
On July 24 2013 01:47 Swords wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 01:36 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 01:25 ragz_gt wrote:On July 24 2013 01:04 c0ldfusion wrote:On July 24 2013 00:44 Talin wrote:On July 24 2013 00:26 c0ldfusion wrote:On July 24 2013 00:17 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2013 23:57 Plansix wrote:On July 23 2013 23:52 Talin wrote:On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote:
Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals? I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying". Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf. Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels. I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators? To me, they're no less different than golf and football. They're closer to basketball and football in the context of American sports. Games don't have to be similar, because people don't have uniform interests. In fact, overlap would arguably be smaller if the games were similar or part of the same genre. Even if we disregard the actual games, the very magnitude of events would naturally draw in people that haven't watched before or don't watch regularly to check them out. They don't have to know, understand, or even like the game initially. I first watched Dota as a Starcraft fan during the TI2. There were only two things I knew about the game - that Black Hole was a big deal, and that the watery hero is important for the late game. I watched it anyway because the production, commentary, and the energy of a live crowd created an amazing atmosphere. There isn't a huge overlap among basketball and football fans here. But actually I agree with you on your other comment. I think in terms of newer viewers, this will likely turn more of them to TI3 than WCS. Like you, I casually took a peek at TI2 when it aired. Though I haven't watched any DotA since. That would be an impact but I'm not sure how big the casual viewership is and how likely it is for either TI3 or WCS to convert them to regular/hardcore fans. Wait what? I don't really know anyone that watches football and doesn't at least watch basketball on a semi-regular basis or vice versa. Most people do not watch all major league sports. I know a few people who watch hockey, baseball and some football, but all of those have different seasons and they only watch games for their team. And stuff is held on the on the same day all the time. Division finals can run on the same day as another championship(though the seasons do not line up). Wouldn't TI3 be a better comparison with the Super Bowl though? It's a once a year event with a massive prizepool and it's really the big Dota2 Tournament of the whole year. All TV networks try to avoid scheduling anything remotely important during the Super Bowl, even those that don't show sports. Obviously TI3 is nowhere near as big as American Football, but in the world of esports it seems like if there was an equivalent to the Super Bowl, where you would try to avoid overlapping anything remotely important, it'd be TI3 and the LoL World Finals. The decision is just weird. Total Biscuit was saying on Reddit that one of the big problems here is companies investing in esports are going to look at stream numbers and come to the conclusion that investing in Dota makes more sense than investing in SC2 since there's no way in hell that WCS will be able to come close to competing with TI3. Even if there isn't huge viewer overlap, it looks pretty bad to be totally overshadowed by another game when you're showing your finals. To go back to the sports comparison, hockey team owners don't like it when basketball games get a much bigger audience, even if those people don't like hockey, because it's bad for business.
The Superblow does not last for a full weekend. It is, at max, 5-7 hours in you include EVERYTHING. It is easy to stay out of its way. That is one of the larger problems with a lot of Esports events: they take forever.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
