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On July 24 2013 00:17 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 23:57 Plansix wrote:On July 23 2013 23:52 Talin wrote:On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote:
Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals? I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying". Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf. Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
It's semantics at this point, but there would be a huge overlap. Everyone watches the Super Bowl. Most golf fans are fans of many other sports. He could have chosen two other events like the NBA Finals and the Super Bowl, but you get his point. Just wondering, are you American? You don't have it listed. I'm just curious.
I absolutely agree with you, it sucks, but I think understanding why makes accepting it a little easier.
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I still don't know how representative is this thread of the overall situation. To me it feels full of people who feel some strange need to come here and show everyone how they like DOTA over SC2. Is this really how everyone feels now? Are all those tens of thousands of people watching SC2 only because there is no DOTA at the moment for them? I find that hard to believe. I see this as a kind of a bandwagon: shitting over SC2 has become cool again, so let's do it! Just look at some of the comments subtly and no-so-subtly bashing "quality of matches" in SC2 and whatnot.
OK, let's wait for the actual stream numbers, that will tell us quite a lot - unfortunatelly it will be skewed by having all three WCS on one weekend anyway, so it will not be very easy to disentagle the influence of DOTA. I already don't see myself watching everything (I sleep at 8-10 hours a day and I insist on that) and if I have to choose, it's definitely WCS KR and I am afraid that many people who are hardcore SC2 fans enough to not care about DOTA will feel the same and that can really hurt EU/US ...
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On July 24 2013 00:20 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
well, its pretty stupid to have to big finals (the dota thing is a finals yes?) at the same time but anyhow, i probably wont watch either, dota is boring anad sc2 meta game makes for a lot of shitty games for me
korean meta is preety exciting.Maru prime/innovation have sick moves.Also in europe le stephano and mvp playstiles make for fun games.Dunno about dota but probably the chinesse teams and navi have interesting playstiles as well.
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On July 24 2013 00:17 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 23:57 Plansix wrote:On July 23 2013 23:52 Talin wrote:On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote:
Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals? I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying". Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf. Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I think that is true for TL members, but we are only one section of the whole community(maybe the largest). I don't know about the people who love Husky, or the r/starcraft groups. The cross over is huge for TL and the super hardcore players, that is for sure. But I also think the people on TL are just as likely to have two streams open at once.
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I actually wanted to watch WCS Ah well, maybe next season
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On July 24 2013 00:21 opisska wrote:
I still don't know how representative is this thread of the overall situation. To me it feels full of people who feel some strange need to come here and show everyone how they like DOTA over SC2. Is this really how everyone feels now? Are all those tens of thousands of people watching SC2 only because there is no DOTA at the moment for them? I find that hard to believe. I see this as a kind of a bandwagon: shitting over SC2 has become cool again, so let's do it! Just look at some of the comments subtly and no-so-subtly bashing "quality of matches" in SC2 and whatnot.
OK, let's wait for the actual stream numbers, that will tell us quite a lot - unfortunatelly it will be skewed by having all three WCS on one weekend anyway, so it will not be very easy to disentagle the influence of DOTA. I already don't see myself watching everything (I sleep at 8-10 hours a day and I insist on that) and if I have to choose, it's definitely WCS KR and I am afraid that many people who are hardcore SC2 fans enough to not care about DOTA will feel the same and that can really hurt EU/US ...
Man think about it this way.back in wol days when blizzard did a bad move, the topics used to have anywhere between 100-200 pages of qq/whine/rage.Now this is only a 30 page something topic which is actually a positive thing.So historically blizzard is actually improving. .The reddit thread seems to have a bit more comments though but reddit feeds on good drama and unmoderrated trolls so any negative stuff is bound to get more attention there
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On July 24 2013 00:17 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 23:57 Plansix wrote:On July 23 2013 23:52 Talin wrote:On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote:
Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals? I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying". Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf. Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data.
But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
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Lalalaland34502 Posts
On July 24 2013 00:26 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 00:17 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2013 23:57 Plansix wrote:On July 23 2013 23:52 Talin wrote:On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote:
Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals? I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying". Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf. Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels. I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators? To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
You don't have community websites dedicated to covering both football and golf, but here you have TL heavily invested in both SC2 and Dota.
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On July 24 2013 00:26 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 00:17 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2013 23:57 Plansix wrote:On July 23 2013 23:52 Talin wrote:On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote:
Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals? I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying". Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf. Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels. I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators? To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
Dunno if Blizzard wants to hurt Valve specifically, but to call a dota2 tournament the "Super Bowl of esport" is for sure wrong. Dota2 numbers so far have been far behind those for LoL and SC2.
From my point of view, this might be hurting DotA more than SC2, but I understand Blizzard, having trouble to find a date, that doesn't collide with anything. So at least they didn't colide with another big SC2 event 
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On July 24 2013 00:21 opisska wrote:
I still don't know how representative is this thread of the overall situation. To me it feels full of people who feel some strange need to come here and show everyone how they like DOTA over SC2. Is this really how everyone feels now? Are all those tens of thousands of people watching SC2 only because there is no DOTA at the moment for them? I find that hard to believe. I see this as a kind of a bandwagon: shitting over SC2 has become cool again, so let's do it! Just look at some of the comments subtly and no-so-subtly bashing "quality of matches" in SC2 and whatnot.
OK, let's wait for the actual stream numbers, that will tell us quite a lot - unfortunatelly it will be skewed by having all three WCS on one weekend anyway, so it will not be very easy to disentagle the influence of DOTA. I already don't see myself watching everything (I sleep at 8-10 hours a day and I insist on that) and if I have to choose, it's definitely WCS KR and I am afraid that many people who are hardcore SC2 fans enough to not care about DOTA will feel the same and that can really hurt EU/US ...
There is a big representation of DotA2 players who are at least somewhat familiar with the SC2 scene in this thread. (This being on teamliquid after all.) Their bias stems from their personal perception and viewing habits.
Look, I have no illusions about LoL and DotA2 being more popular than SC2 but this argument that there is a significant overlap is pretty baseless from what I've seen. Even if there is, so what, people will have multiple streams running.
Note that just because TI3 will have higher stream numbers than WCS doesn't mean that there is a big overlap in the viewership. It actually tells you nothing.
All-in-all, this is not a big deal guys. Some of us will tune into TI3, some of us will tune into WCS and some of us will have multiple streams running to support eSports. Stay calm; everything will be fine.
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On July 24 2013 00:28 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 00:26 c0ldfusion wrote:On July 24 2013 00:17 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2013 23:57 Plansix wrote:On July 23 2013 23:52 Talin wrote:On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote:
Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals? I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying". Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf. Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels. I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators? To me, they're no less different than golf and football. You don't have community websites dedicated to covering both football and golf, but here you have TL heavily invested in both SC2 and Dota.
They basically had to choose LoL or Dota.
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On July 24 2013 00:32 TeeTS wrote:Dunno if Blizzard wants to hurt Valve specifically, but to call a dota2 tournament the "Super Bowl of esport" is for sure wrong. Dota2 numbers so far have been far behind those for LoL and SC2. From my point of view, this might be hurting DotA more than SC2, but I understand Blizzard, having trouble to find a date, that doesn't collide with anything. So at least they didn't colide with another big SC2 event
You seem to troll.The last Ti2 had over 560k viewer . the biggest EVER run pure online tournament was a Dota 2 one just 3 weeks ago (peak was over 250k without counting TV).In this year, Dota 2 only lost in one month to SC2 in viewer numbers.
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what if this years sc2 regionals will have HIGHER viewership than last year.Will blizzard still be bad or will it mean that overlapping events might not affect viewership at all and it fact this might have been a good idea.Just like the fact sc2 and dota have been at the same time at dreamhacks and they all got record number of viewers and packed houses.People should really wait for final numbers before making a call.
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On July 24 2013 00:32 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 00:26 c0ldfusion wrote:On July 24 2013 00:17 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2013 23:57 Plansix wrote:On July 23 2013 23:52 Talin wrote:On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote:
Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals? I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying". Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf. Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels. I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators? To me, they're no less different than golf and football. Dunno if Blizzard wants to hurt Valve specifically, but to call a dota2 tournament the "Super Bowl of esport" is for sure wrong. Dota2 numbers so far have been far behind those for LoL and SC2. From my point of view, this might be hurting DotA more than SC2, but I understand Blizzard, having trouble to find a date, that doesn't collide with anything. So at least they didn't colide with another big SC2 event
Yeah .. no. Its really Blizzard shotting itself in the foot right here. You have to realize that player that aren't hardcore on one game will obviously watch the biggest tournament between both. And yeah last year TI2 peaked at 570k concurrent viewers, and like 1.5mil uniques. Wouldn't be surprised if TI3 could break 800/900k concurrent, maybe even a million. I'd be genuinely surprised if WCS Broke 80k with all 3 regions at the same time tbh.
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On July 24 2013 00:13 theking1 wrote:
dota2 and sc2 and lol were at the same time at dreamhack stockholm.What happened?Record number of stream viewers and a packed house for all 3 games.League of legends and sc2 and cod at the same time at the last mlg.What happened?Record number of viewers and packed house for all 3 games.Countless dota2 tournies running along side sc2 tournies and lol tournies.What happens?Growing number of viewers for all games.Overlapping does not necesasary mean less viewers.Other factors such as entertainment value come into play.I would not be surprised if this years wcs regional finals get more viewers than last years regional wcs finals.Of course people will come and say sc2 is dead since it did not beat the international number of viewers but sponsors and people involved will notice the actual increase in viewership.
Viewership for WCS prolly won't take as big a hit as people are saying. After all, many people will tune in to WCS during breaks or downtime from Bo3's that end 2-0. But the DH comparison with Ti3 is a little unfair to say the least. DH didn't have any Asian teams. DH didn't have storylines that have been building since the end of Ti2 and will climax and conclude at Ti3. DH didn't have an All-star match or 1v1 solo mid competition that fans get to vote for ingame. DH 1st place: 21k, Ti3 8th place: $25k. It's just not even close.
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On July 24 2013 00:26 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 00:17 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2013 23:57 Plansix wrote:On July 23 2013 23:52 Talin wrote:On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote:
Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals? I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying". Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf. Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels. I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators? To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
They're closer to basketball and football in the context of American sports.
Games don't have to be similar, because people don't have uniform interests. In fact, overlap would arguably be smaller if the games were similar or part of the same genre.
Even if we disregard the actual games, the very magnitude of events would naturally draw in people that haven't watched before or don't watch regularly to check them out. They don't have to know, understand, or even like the game initially.
I first watched Dota as a Starcraft fan during the TI2. There were only two things I knew about the game - that Black Hole was a big deal, and that the watery hero is important for the late game. I watched it anyway because the production, commentary, and the energy of a live crowd created an amazing atmosphere.
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Its not about who will get most views or whatever. The real problem is the meltdown of twitch (gonna happen for sure) and WCS will be fucked so hard while TI3 will have backups in dotatv and youtube.
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On July 24 2013 00:42 neurosx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 00:32 TeeTS wrote:On July 24 2013 00:26 c0ldfusion wrote:On July 24 2013 00:17 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2013 23:57 Plansix wrote:On July 23 2013 23:52 Talin wrote:On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote:
Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals? I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying". Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf. Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels. I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators? To me, they're no less different than golf and football. Dunno if Blizzard wants to hurt Valve specifically, but to call a dota2 tournament the "Super Bowl of esport" is for sure wrong. Dota2 numbers so far have been far behind those for LoL and SC2. From my point of view, this might be hurting DotA more than SC2, but I understand Blizzard, having trouble to find a date, that doesn't collide with anything. So at least they didn't colide with another big SC2 event Yeah .. no. Its really Blizzard shotting itself in the foot right here. You have to realize that player that aren't hardcore on one game will obviously watch the biggest tournament between both. And yeah last year TI2 peaked at 570k concurrent viewers, and like 1.5mil uniques. Wouldn't be surprised if TI3 could break 800/900k concurrent, maybe even a million. I'd be genuinely surprised if WCS Broke 80k with all 3 regions at the same time tbh.
Well it is the once a year event for Dota 2 against the regional finals for SC2 for three seperate regions. Its not even the World Finals for Season 2, which are 2 weeks after that. Even LoL would be blown out of the water if it held is regional finals during TI3.
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On July 24 2013 00:42 neurosx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 00:32 TeeTS wrote:On July 24 2013 00:26 c0ldfusion wrote:On July 24 2013 00:17 Shiori wrote:On July 23 2013 23:57 Plansix wrote:On July 23 2013 23:52 Talin wrote:On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote:
Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals? I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying". Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf. Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels. I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators? To me, they're no less different than golf and football. Dunno if Blizzard wants to hurt Valve specifically, but to call a dota2 tournament the "Super Bowl of esport" is for sure wrong. Dota2 numbers so far have been far behind those for LoL and SC2. From my point of view, this might be hurting DotA more than SC2, but I understand Blizzard, having trouble to find a date, that doesn't collide with anything. So at least they didn't colide with another big SC2 event Yeah .. no. Its really Blizzard shotting itself in the foot right here. You have to realize that player that aren't hardcore on one game will obviously watch the biggest tournament between both. And yeah last year TI2 peaked at 570k concurrent viewers, and like 1.5mil uniques. Wouldn't be surprised if TI3 could break 800/900k concurrent, maybe even a million. I'd be genuinely surprised if WCS Broke 80k with all 3 regions at the same time tbh.
Didn't EU WCS break 120 last year?
Look this isn't about DotA2 vs SC2. TI3 for sure will have higher concurrent but that says nothing about its impact on WCS. People who watches both games will have multiple streams up. It'll be fine.
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On July 24 2013 00:43 snarl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 00:13 theking1 wrote:
dota2 and sc2 and lol were at the same time at dreamhack stockholm.What happened?Record number of stream viewers and a packed house for all 3 games.League of legends and sc2 and cod at the same time at the last mlg.What happened?Record number of viewers and packed house for all 3 games.Countless dota2 tournies running along side sc2 tournies and lol tournies.What happens?Growing number of viewers for all games.Overlapping does not necesasary mean less viewers.Other factors such as entertainment value come into play.I would not be surprised if this years wcs regional finals get more viewers than last years regional wcs finals.Of course people will come and say sc2 is dead since it did not beat the international number of viewers but sponsors and people involved will notice the actual increase in viewership.
Viewership for WCS prolly won't take as big a hit as people are saying. After all, many people will tune in to WCS during breaks or downtime from Bo3's that end 2-0. But the DH comparison with Ti3 is a little unfair to say the least. DH didn't have any Asian teams. DH didn't have storylines that have been building since the end of Ti2 and will climax and conclude at Ti3. DH didn't have an All-star match or 1v1 solo mid competition that fans get to vote for ingame. DH 1st place: 21k, Ti3 8th place: $25k. It's just not even close.
You would be quite surprise but having chinesse teams isnt a good thing for viewership since most foreign fans want to see foreign teams compete against each other.The only storyline that could be interesting would be a foreign teamaka navi and beating chinesse and that is about it.If it is going to turn in chinesse teams slaughtering everyone else the foreign viewership will go down.As a sc2 fan I see what happens to viewership when koreans dominate everything.
And dremahack is a good example of why concurrent video games and get record numbers of viewers even though both are at the same time.It is a very well organized even with many good foreign teams.Prizepool for me does not matter.I do not get excited to see how rich asian people get
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EPT
