Update: Update on Reddit from Kim Phan regarding the situation. Posted on reddit here because I guess they hate us.
We wanted to clarify a few points regarding the timing of the WCS Season 2 League Finals. Given the intricacies of coordinating schedules between multiple regions and partners, travel requirements for pro-gamers, availability of appropriate venues, and more, it's quite a challenge to align all these often conflicting priorities. Adding in the schedules of other events which we have no control over adds another layer of unworkable complexity.
So how did we arrive at the dates for the major WCS Season 2 events? What we knew is that we wanted to have ESL produce a world-class Finals event at gamescom in Germany in late August, which they'll be announcing more details about very soon. That meant working the schedule backward from that point. In order to give partners enough time to plan and execute for a global Season 2 Finals at gamescom, there was only a small window of opportunity for us to have the various regional finals.
Unfortunately this has resulted in overlaps with other major eSports events. These conflicts were certainly not intentional. This simple fact is that as eSports has grown with more events, more games, and more viewers; it's nearly impossible to avoid all conflicts. Many major weekend events already host multiple games, which are running simultaneous game streams in conflict with each other.
That said, we do understand the various concerns that players, teams, and viewers have with this particular conflict and as we have in the past, will continue to do our best to avoid this type of overlap in the future.
WCS Season 2 has played host to some fierce StarCraft II competition, shocking upsets, and a myriad of incredible plays over the past few weeks. Premier League has been a wild ride so far this season -and we’ve only just begun. The struggle for World Championship Series dominance is about to burn white hot in each region as the round of 16 group stage draws near for WCS America and Europe, and players in WCS Korea prepare for next week's round of eight bracket stage.
We're barreling toward the culmination of regional competition at an incredible rate, and we're pleased to announce that the Season 2 League Finals for all three regions will take place August 10 - 11 in a blowout weekend of nonstop StarCraft II action. We'll reveal more detailed League Finals information soon, but in the meantime, be sure to tune in at the dates and times listed below to catch every Premier League match leading up to each region's Season 2 League Finals.
From August 5 – 8, the North American Star League is inviting you to join them in-person as they showcase the WCS America round of 16 group stage live from Yankee Doodles in Santa Monica, California. Entry into the venue is free, just be sure to RSVP on the official NASL Facebook page, and head here to find more venue details.
Furthermore, the Electronic Sports League is once again hosting a live studio audience for the WCS Europe round of 16 at ESL Studio One in Cologne, Germany. You can pick up a ticket here, and follow @esltv_tickets on Twitter to stay on top of ESL TV Studio show updates.
As always, if you plan to cheer on your favorite players from home, you can tune in to all WCS broadcasts for free on the WCS Portal.
The long and short of it is the WCS AM finals will be at the Red Bull studio which is pretty cool, while WCS EU will be in their normal studio (great as usual), on August 10-11. Unfortunately all three of these regional finals (NA, EU, KR) being on the same weekend will make following them a bit rough. Additionally, this is the same weekend as The International 2013 which, as the biggest Dota event of the year (and one that has been getting a lot of attention today for having the biggest prize pool of any esports event to date), will make for some difficult decisions for those that follow both games.
Well god damnit, finally live WCS AM (I always envied those WCS EU get-togethers)... but now its in CA instead of NY.
$#%$#*(*#&#@
On July 23 2013 04:25 Ammanas wrote: Why would you do this? This means, that if you want to follow all of them (as I did last season), you have to be awake for about ~20 hours...
Oh shit, I will be in holidays at this time. I thought it'd be one week later. The saddest part is that I might not be able to ever see one more Stephano's competitive match.
It's the only reasonable decision Blizzard could make because I can't see the starcraft people going back if they watched TI3... Especially bad if the Koreans see it.
I'm pretty optimistic about Twitch's chances here. They deal with the 100k+ or so people cramming into that one league tournament every weekend, so WCS shouldn't be too much to handle.
Holy shit this is stupid, am I seriously not supposed to sleep for the whole weekend? Or do they expect people to only want to watch their own region's finals or something?
Plan will be to watch the WCS Korean finals at night being in NA and then go on to watch TI3 during the day. Man, that weekend is going to be full of pubstomps and barcrafts as such, also I wonder how viewership will be for all three scenes... Will there be an increase? Decrease? Or the same as usual?
On July 23 2013 04:40 mbr2321 wrote: I'm pretty optimistic about Twitch's chances here. They deal with the 100k+ or so people cramming into that one league tournament every weekend, so WCS shouldn't be too much to handle.
At least dota 2 TI will be watchable through DOTATV, this is how Valve will handle the twitch problem. But whyyyy Blizzard. I dont play SC anymore, now you want me to NOT watch SC anymore?,..... I watch every big sc tournament, but this will be missed by me.
This is hilarious. It's going to be a great weekend for ESPORTS hopefully. This kind of hype will hopefully have a positive effect in the future, because there's no way this is a good date for SC2 viewership, but it might be for the future.
On July 23 2013 04:44 Eury wrote: Who cares about some dota tournament. If you are truly a Starcraft fan you will just watch Starcraft, and if you are not then so be it.
It's not just overlapping with Dota:
- Making people stay up for 20 hours of nonstop Starcraft finals on the same day, as if we don't have lives and things to do - Twitch TV will be unwatchable due to the other tournaments running - Overlaps with another fan-favorite game like Dota
so instead of three awesome finalswhich each will get tenthousands of viewers, we now have to decide between 3 finals AND most people will watch the international instead of WCS. I predict less than 30k concurrent viewers on all streams.
I watch both games, and i'm really sad cause i know that i wont see much of both events cause of this poor planning... I guess somebody is getting award for the biggest fuck up of the year
On July 23 2013 04:44 Eury wrote: Who cares about some dota tournament. If you are truly a Starcraft fan you will just watch Starcraft, and if you are not then so be it.
It's not just overlapping with Dota:
- Making people stay up for 20 hours of nonstop Starcraft finals on the same day, as if we don't have lives and things to do - Twitch TV will be unwatchable due to the other tournaments running - Overlaps with another fan-favorite game like Dota
The 20 hours is non-sense, but trying to avoid every other event is likely hard to do. Its not ideal, but maybe they couldn't avoid it.
On July 23 2013 04:45 theacox wrote: I would love it if valve ran Sc2 holy shit it would be amazing.
Yeah, ask the CS community about that. Dota 2 lives and dies with Gabe. Last time I checked he was still obese.
You realy seem like a hater. In the end there will be people competing for over $2,6 Million, so real esports guys will watch the bigger event.
I just prefer watching games that require a bit more skill. I felt the same thing about WoW when it was huge. I didn't watch the million dollar Painkiller tournament either nor CoD.
On July 23 2013 04:45 theacox wrote: I would love it if valve ran Sc2 holy shit it would be amazing.
Yeah, ask the CS community about that. Dota 2 lives and dies with Gabe. Last time I checked he was still obese.
You realy seem like a hater. In the end there will be people competing for over $2,6 Million, so real esports guys will watch the bigger event.
I just prefer watching games that require a bit more skill. I felt the same thing about WoW when it was huge. I didn't watch the million dollar Painkiller tournament either nor CoD.
So you think that CS requires more skill that dota 2? Or are you just trolling at this point?
On July 23 2013 04:45 theacox wrote: I would love it if valve ran Sc2 holy shit it would be amazing.
Yeah, ask the CS community about that. Dota 2 lives and dies with Gabe. Last time I checked he was still obese.
You realy seem like a hater. In the end there will be people competing for over $2,6 Million, so real esports guys will watch the bigger event.
I just prefer watching games that require a bit more skill. I felt the same thing about WoW when it was huge. I didn't watch the million dollar Painkiller tournament either nor CoD.
Please i would reccomend you would learn to troll. I bet the guys who made this decission think like you do, which is sad. DotA and Dota 2 always supported Blizzard products as our (step-)brothers, but well it is realy sad to see that it came to this again.
On July 23 2013 04:45 theacox wrote: I would love it if valve ran Sc2 holy shit it would be amazing.
Yeah, ask the CS community about that. Dota 2 lives and dies with Gabe. Last time I checked he was still obese.
You realy seem like a hater. In the end there will be people competing for over $2,6 Million, so real esports guys will watch the bigger event.
I just prefer watching games that require a bit more skill. I felt the same thing about WoW when it was huge. I didn't watch the million dollar Painkiller tournament either nor CoD.
I think you might be confusing Dota2 with some other moba game.
On July 23 2013 04:44 Eury wrote: Who cares about some dota tournament. If you are truly a Starcraft fan you will just watch Starcraft, and if you are not then so be it.
It's not just overlapping with Dota:
- Making people stay up for 20 hours of nonstop Starcraft finals on the same day, as if we don't have lives and things to do - Twitch TV will be unwatchable due to the other tournaments running - Overlaps with another fan-favorite game like Dota
The 20 hours is non-sense, but trying to avoid every other event is likely hard to do. Its not ideal, but maybe they couldn't avoid it.
yes, trying to avoid every event is hard.
Not avoiding THE BIGGEST FUCKING EVENT of Nr.3 esports title in the West is just plain fucking stupid. I mean, I don't like DotA, but it is just pure logic.
The best part is, that OK - you have some SC2 guys (like me) who don't plan to watch DotA. I really want to watch all season finals. And I probably still will, even though I won't get sleep, because I just like SC2. But WTF Blizzard, Y U NO WANT ME TO SLEEP?
On July 23 2013 04:45 theacox wrote: I would love it if valve ran Sc2 holy shit it would be amazing.
Yeah, ask the CS community about that. Dota 2 lives and dies with Gabe. Last time I checked he was still obese.
You realy seem like a hater. In the end there will be people competing for over $2,6 Million, so real esports guys will watch the bigger event.
I just prefer watching games that require a bit more skill. I felt the same thing about WoW when it was huge. I didn't watch the million dollar Painkiller tournament either nor CoD.
So you think that CS requires more skill that dota 2? Or are you just trolling at this point?
CS, Quake, Starcraft etc all requires more skill than dota ever did. Dota was made for people that found Warcraft 3 too challenging.
next level scheduling on twitch also how are you supposed to watch all 3. WCS AM will obviously come last. it already suffers from worse numbers, and everyone will be burnt out from watching the first 2 and if there was an inkling of a chance that they might give a shit to watch wcs america before they sure as hell wont now.
On July 23 2013 04:45 theacox wrote: I would love it if valve ran Sc2 holy shit it would be amazing.
Yeah, ask the CS community about that. Dota 2 lives and dies with Gabe. Last time I checked he was still obese.
You realy seem like a hater. In the end there will be people competing for over $2,6 Million, so real esports guys will watch the bigger event.
I just prefer watching games that require a bit more skill. I felt the same thing about WoW when it was huge. I didn't watch the million dollar Painkiller tournament either nor CoD.
So you think that CS requires more skill that dota 2? Or are you just trolling at this point?
CS, Quake, Starcraft etc all requires more skill than dota ever did. Dota was made for people that found Warcraft 3 too challenging.
All right. Well your a troll and should move on, you will find few who agree with you in this community.
On July 23 2013 04:45 theacox wrote: I would love it if valve ran Sc2 holy shit it would be amazing.
Yeah, ask the CS community about that. Dota 2 lives and dies with Gabe. Last time I checked he was still obese.
You realy seem like a hater. In the end there will be people competing for over $2,6 Million, so real esports guys will watch the bigger event.
I just prefer watching games that require a bit more skill. I felt the same thing about WoW when it was huge. I didn't watch the million dollar Painkiller tournament either nor CoD.
So you think that CS requires more skill that dota 2? Or are you just trolling at this point?
CS, Quake, Starcraft etc all requires more skill than dota ever did. Dota was made for people that found Warcraft 3 too challenging.
You realy realy should learn how to troll right, you can't even touch anyone who plays Dota with this kind of arguments and even if you are sincere, it is sad, that people think the way you do. Not even pathetic, just said.
The complexity of Dota lies not only in the mechanical skills but also in the teamchemistry, the leadership and the social competence of a player. A Player can contribute on so many levels, but it seems you don't want to see this way of playing.
Deliberate move by blizzard. Blizzard is trying to directly compete with the International 3. The worst outcome of this is if Twitch falters and causes the events to be unwatchable. DOTA2 has another option with DOTATV but blizzard is stuck with twitch.
On July 23 2013 04:45 theacox wrote: I would love it if valve ran Sc2 holy shit it would be amazing.
Yeah, ask the CS community about that. Dota 2 lives and dies with Gabe. Last time I checked he was still obese.
You realy seem like a hater. In the end there will be people competing for over $2,6 Million, so real esports guys will watch the bigger event.
I just prefer watching games that require a bit more skill. I felt the same thing about WoW when it was huge. I didn't watch the million dollar Painkiller tournament either nor CoD.
So you think that CS requires more skill that dota 2? Or are you just trolling at this point?
CS, Quake, Starcraft etc all requires more skill than dota ever did. Dota was made for people that found Warcraft 3 too challenging.
u could be playing for 2.6mil, what are u waiting for?
On July 23 2013 04:45 theacox wrote: I would love it if valve ran Sc2 holy shit it would be amazing.
Yeah, ask the CS community about that. Dota 2 lives and dies with Gabe. Last time I checked he was still obese.
You realy seem like a hater. In the end there will be people competing for over $2,6 Million, so real esports guys will watch the bigger event.
I just prefer watching games that require a bit more skill. I felt the same thing about WoW when it was huge. I didn't watch the million dollar Painkiller tournament either nor CoD.
So you think that CS requires more skill that dota 2? Or are you just trolling at this point?
CS, Quake, Starcraft etc all requires more skill than dota ever did. Dota was made for people that found Warcraft 3 too challenging.
All right. Well your a troll and should move on, you will find few who agree with you in this community.
Having an opinion that disagrees with your own isn't trolling. And I don't care about if I'm in the majority or not. A lot of people like to listen to pop music but I still think it is crap.
On July 23 2013 04:45 theacox wrote: I would love it if valve ran Sc2 holy shit it would be amazing.
Yeah, ask the CS community about that. Dota 2 lives and dies with Gabe. Last time I checked he was still obese.
You realy seem like a hater. In the end there will be people competing for over $2,6 Million, so real esports guys will watch the bigger event.
I just prefer watching games that require a bit more skill. I felt the same thing about WoW when it was huge. I didn't watch the million dollar Painkiller tournament either nor CoD.
So you think that CS requires more skill that dota 2? Or are you just trolling at this point?
CS, Quake, Starcraft etc all requires more skill than dota ever did. Dota was made for people that found Warcraft 3 too challenging.
All right. Well your a troll and should move on, you will find few who agree with you in this community.
Having an opinion that disagrees with your own isn't trolling. And I don't care about if I'm in the majority or not. A lot of people like to listen to pop music but I still think it is crap.
You let us know how you feel and most of the community does not agree. Not much more to see here, really.
I am really really disappointed in Blizzard. I am a diehard Dota 2 and SC2 fan and I stayed up to watch ever WCS Season 1 Finals including the combined season finals. But this is really bullshit. Why would they try to challenge the International? For me this is a nobrainer, I will definitely watch TI3 over all WCS finals not only because of the game I like more, but even more because of Blizzard's stupid decision. But this is more than just that, even people who only love SC are fucked because they are forced to choose between events and this will hurt all of the stream's viewer numbers. Blizzard is shooting themselves in the foot with this!
On July 23 2013 04:45 theacox wrote: I would love it if valve ran Sc2 holy shit it would be amazing.
Yeah, ask the CS community about that. Dota 2 lives and dies with Gabe. Last time I checked he was still obese.
You realy seem like a hater. In the end there will be people competing for over $2,6 Million, so real esports guys will watch the bigger event.
I just prefer watching games that require a bit more skill. I felt the same thing about WoW when it was huge. I didn't watch the million dollar Painkiller tournament either nor CoD.
So you think that CS requires more skill that dota 2? Or are you just trolling at this point?
CS, Quake, Starcraft etc all requires more skill than dota ever did. Dota was made for people that found Warcraft 3 too challenging.
All right. Well your a troll and should move on, you will find few who agree with you in this community.
Having an opinion that disagrees with your own isn't trolling. And I don't care about if I'm in the majority or not. A lot of people like to listen to pop music but I still think it is crap.
You let us know how you feel and most of the community does not agree. Not much more to see here, really.
On July 23 2013 04:45 theacox wrote: I would love it if valve ran Sc2 holy shit it would be amazing.
Yeah, ask the CS community about that. Dota 2 lives and dies with Gabe. Last time I checked he was still obese.
You realy seem to be a hater. In the end there will be people competing for over $2,6 Million, so real esports guys will watch the bigger event.
The best part is that there will be so much down time during both events, I can likely just watch them both at the same time.
Last Year TI had close to zero downtime(like literally)
The International is run with only one main stage and they have all the player setups done through swapping SSDs in the PC cases themselves so they generally have to fire off games one after another, and the means to do it impressively quickly. You can always do other stuff during the draft though I suppose.
On July 23 2013 04:40 mbr2321 wrote: I'm pretty optimistic about Twitch's chances here. They deal with the 100k+ or so people cramming into that one league tournament every weekend, so WCS shouldn't be too much to handle.
Have you been on twitch with the terrible LCS finals with 100k+ for like a week? Do you even know what else is happening in esports the same weekend as WCS? GL twitch dealing with the mass amount of viewers watching TI3 and WCS at the same time. I'll be chilling in Benaroya Hall with other Dota fans hoping that twitch is watchable for those unable to watch it live.
On July 23 2013 04:45 theacox wrote: I would love it if valve ran Sc2 holy shit it would be amazing.
Yeah, ask the CS community about that. Dota 2 lives and dies with Gabe. Last time I checked he was still obese.
You realy seem to be a hater. In the end there will be people competing for over $2,6 Million, so real esports guys will watch the bigger event.
The best part is that there will be so much down time during both events, I can likely just watch them both at the same time.
Last Year TI had close to zero downtime(like literally)
The International is run with only one main stage and they have all the player setups done through swapping SSDs in the PC cases themselves so they generally have to fire off games one after another, and the means to do it impressively quickly. You can always do other stuff during the draft though I suppose.
Yeah draft is about the only down time there will be. Those people doing the setups were pretty fast at setting stuff up and the players were always on time for matches.
On July 23 2013 04:45 theacox wrote: I would love it if valve ran Sc2 holy shit it would be amazing.
Yeah, ask the CS community about that. Dota 2 lives and dies with Gabe. Last time I checked he was still obese.
You realy seem like a hater. In the end there will be people competing for over $2,6 Million, so real esports guys will watch the bigger event.
I just prefer watching games that require a bit more skill. I felt the same thing about WoW when it was huge. I didn't watch the million dollar Painkiller tournament either nor CoD.
So you think that CS requires more skill that dota 2? Or are you just trolling at this point?
CS, Quake, Starcraft etc all requires more skill than dota ever did. Dota was made for people that found Warcraft 3 too challenging.
This shows that you have no idea what are you talking about. Even comparing dota 2(teamgame) to starcraft(solo game) is stupid. Well played!
If I were Blizzard I would push EU and NA to the next weekend, but leave Korea where it is. The time zones will mean little overlap with TI3. But that is just me and Blizzard likely has reasons for these dates. Or they just don't know about TI3.
I think this a bold move.I sense David Ting behind it.He is THAT guy with the survival of the fittest. Also, RedBull in on it for the America finals is HUGE. (thanks Rob and Sean!) But also this schedule is better than have the Grand Slam Finals collide with anything.
Consumers must start to realize that we got now like 4,5+ esports titles with decent viewer numbers over/near 100k (LoL, DotA2, SC2, CSGO, CoD) and some smaller ones on top who run at up to lets say 20k (like Quake, EVE, BoI, WoT, WoW, MtG, HoN etc). That not every premiere circuit like MLG, IEM can and will have all their titles.
With all this we the consumer have to start to say adieu to watching everything live simply because these things WILL collide. A startup websites which provides links and search to VODs of these events can be a huge hit in the next 12-24 months Also, easy access to those VODs will help the organizers to further monetize them. Imagine.. you do your own TV/video program when you get home from this.
Anyway. .with usually downtimes on TI and dual monitors and energy drinks and a day off.. this one is no problem and welcome for me.
On July 23 2013 05:10 Ammanas wrote: Who is actually in charge of this at Blizzard? Still David Ting?
Im not exactly sure if Ting is the person in charge of WCS and other Blizzard tournaments, or whether he is more of a community manager for e-sports, in charge of making extra content like WCS Today.
Either way, though I don't watch a ton of Dota2, this will for sure impact the viewer rating and count because of the fact that TI3 is the better event to watch, with excellent production, audience, and overall time spent. Blizzard on the other hand....
Not to say that the WCS production or quality is bad (it can be at times), but this is a terrible scheduling issue. This contradicts the path that e-sports is taking in trying to build communities around multiple games, not split the viewership in some act of desperation or defense against a big event like TI3.
I'll still watch the WCS, and probably pop in to TI3 at times, but even though this doesn't affect me as a sole SC fan, it does impact many other viewers. It's really a shame.
On July 23 2013 05:14 TumNarDok wrote: I think this a bold move.I sense David Ting behind it.He is THAT guy with the survival of the fittest. Also, RedBull in on it for the America finals is HUGE. (thanks Rob and Sean!) But also this schedule is better than have the Grand Slam Finals collide with anything.
"survival of the fittest" doesn't mean what you think it does.
On July 23 2013 05:14 TumNarDok wrote: I think this a bold move.I sense David Ting behind it.He is THAT guy with the survival of the fittest. Also, RedBull in on it for the America finals is HUGE. (thanks Rob and Sean!) But also this schedule is better than have the Grand Slam Finals collide with anything.
Consumers must start to realize that we got now like 4,5+ esports titles with decent viewer numbers over/near 100k (LoL, DotA2, SC2, CSGO, CoD) and some smaller ones on top who run at up to lets say 20k (like Quake, EVE, BoI, WoT, WoW, MtG, HoN etc). That not every premiere circuit like MLG, IEM can and will have all their titles.
With all this we the consumer have to start to say adieu to watching everything live simply because these things WILL collide. A startup websites which provides links and search to VODs of these events can be a huge hit in the next 12-24 months Also, easy access to those VODs will help the organizers to further monetize them. Imagine.. you do your own TV/video program when you get home from this.
Anyway. .with usually downtimes on TI and dual monitors and energy drinks and a day off.. this one is no problem and welcome for me.
This is a good theory, if you look beside the fact that last years international had like 400+k viewers, is the biggest tournament dota 2 has by far, and has been hyped up for the last 3 months.
Competing with it is just a terrible decision, and just hurts both communities. There's a lot of split, and a lot of dota 2 viewers now used to be sc2 viewers that might've taken a look at WCS. Now that will never happend.
Horrible idea by blizzard. Have they never heard of viewer fatigue? I mean there's only so much sc2 a person can watch in one day. The dota 2 overlap seems intentional since that date has been known forever. Blizz probably just doesn't like valve over dota 2 and that whole lawsuit they had going with them.
On another note - No wonder bitter has been doing the redbull tournaments. Makes sense now with wcs am finals in the redbull studios.
Way too much e-sport content for 1 weekend. How did Blizzard/tournament organizers not see this coming..? I don't particularly care for the Dota tournament, but even the SC2 content alone is too much for me. Oh well.
Even though this is a completely retarded from a viewership point of view. assuming twitch somehow magically stays up and running I wonder how it will affect the actual number of viewers shown on twitch thoughI imagine most players who are interested in sc2 and dota2, will (Assuming they are at a computer\watching one of the events) have the other one up and running in the background. I am a looot more focused on TI3 than WCS, but now that WCS will be at same time ill probably have it running in the background and check in on it now and then. That being said, had TI3 not been going on I would probably be watching Only WCS, instead of just having it in the background while I watch TI3.
Either way think this looks bad or twitch, TI2 had pretty big numbers last years, and after how great that event was + how much dota has grown (+ sick hype like 1 million added to the prize pool from community, the compendiums etc), I expect it to be a lot bigger this year.
Don't think they possibly could have picked a worse weekend\event to 'compete with' though. Sure League of legends also has some big events, but don't think their community/viewers overlaps as much with SC2 as dota2 does.
On July 23 2013 05:13 Plansix wrote: If I were Blizzard I would push EU and NA to the next weekend, but leave Korea where it is. The time zones will mean little overlap with TI3. But that is just me and Blizzard likely has reasons for these dates. Or they just don't know about TI3.
Actually I wouldn't be that surprised if ESL postpones the season finals by a week. Carmac is the kind of guys who has the balls for this.
On July 23 2013 05:25 Uracil wrote: Fine for me since i don't follow Dota at all. EU Korea on the same weekend is a bit sad but i guess they couldn't avoid it.
Yeah, I wonder what else is going on that is prevent them from doing it other weekends. There might be issues with the production crews for NASL and ESL. They do have other Esports they work on that are not SC2.
meh, i see where this idea is coming from but it's not very smart imo. even if the international wasn't going on at the same time.
what i think would actually be awesome though is if they had all 3 region finals at the same event (say right before the global season finals as all the players would have to be there anyways). but i don't think they'd ever do that as it would take the finals of the regional leagues away from the actual regions.
On July 23 2013 05:20 Canucklehead wrote: Horrible idea by blizzard. Have they never heard of viewer fatigue? I mean there's only so much sc2 a person can watch in one day. The dota 2 overlap seems intentional since that date has been known forever. Blizz probably just doesn't like valve over dota 2 and that whole lawsuit they had going with them.
On another note - No wonder bitter has been doing the redbull tournaments. Makes sense now with wcs am finals in the redbull studios.
I highly doubt the overlap is intentional because this hurts SC2 considerably more than Dota2.
For one it creates a lot of ill will and lack of confidence for Blizzard from the community. It will not represent the game in a good light when faced with TI's viewership which will be much larger. And SC2 will lose a lot more viewers to TI than the TI viewers which will be lost to WCS.
I believe that they decided on this whole "all on one weekend", and after that point you are hamstrung on dates having to deal with all these players and organisations. And TI just happened to be the date which worked.
Which is still probably a bad idea as having all the events on one weekend isn't good for your viewers.
On July 23 2013 05:14 TumNarDok wrote: I think this a bold move.I sense David Ting behind it.He is THAT guy with the survival of the fittest. Also, RedBull in on it for the America finals is HUGE. (thanks Rob and Sean!) But also this schedule is better than have the Grand Slam Finals collide with anything.
Consumers must start to realize that we got now like 4,5+ esports titles with decent viewer numbers over/near 100k (LoL, DotA2, SC2, CSGO, CoD) and some smaller ones on top who run at up to lets say 20k (like Quake, EVE, BoI, WoT, WoW, MtG, HoN etc). That not every premiere circuit like MLG, IEM can and will have all their titles.
With all this we the consumer have to start to say adieu to watching everything live simply because these things WILL collide. A startup websites which provides links and search to VODs of these events can be a huge hit in the next 12-24 months Also, easy access to those VODs will help the organizers to further monetize them. Imagine.. you do your own TV/video program when you get home from this.
Anyway. .with usually downtimes on TI and dual monitors and energy drinks and a day off.. this one is no problem and welcome for me.
This is a good theory, if you look beside the fact that last years international had like 400+k viewers, is the biggest tournament dota 2 has by far, and has been hyped up for the last 3 months.
Competing with it is just a terrible decision, and just hurts both communities. There's a lot of split, and a lot of dota 2 viewers now used to be sc2 viewers that might've taken a look at WCS. Now that will never happend.
I'll agree that if the big players work together and even maybe promote each other, this can reach a whole another level. That be like OVER 9000. They could build esports cities in LA, NY, Cologne, Stockholm and Kiev together. Maybe someone do a round table like they had with organizers last year in Valencia.
I fear that most of this WCS schedule is directly connected that WCS have maneuvered themself into this with their rushed initial schedule and goal of completing 3 seasons until Blizzcon,
On July 23 2013 05:14 TumNarDok wrote: I think this a bold move.I sense David Ting behind it.He is THAT guy with the survival of the fittest. Also, RedBull in on it for the America finals is HUGE. (thanks Rob and Sean!) But also this schedule is better than have the Grand Slam Finals collide with anything.
Consumers must start to realize that we got now like 4,5+ esports titles with decent viewer numbers over/near 100k (LoL, DotA2, SC2, CSGO, CoD) and some smaller ones on top who run at up to lets say 20k (like Quake, EVE, BoI, WoT, WoW, MtG, HoN etc). That not every premiere circuit like MLG, IEM can and will have all their titles.
With all this we the consumer have to start to say adieu to watching everything live simply because these things WILL collide. A startup websites which provides links and search to VODs of these events can be a huge hit in the next 12-24 months Also, easy access to those VODs will help the organizers to further monetize them. Imagine.. you do your own TV/video program when you get home from this.
Anyway. .with usually downtimes on TI and dual monitors and energy drinks and a day off.. this one is no problem and welcome for me.
This is a good theory, if you look beside the fact that last years international had like 400+k viewers, is the biggest tournament dota 2 has by far, and has been hyped up for the last 3 months.
Competing with it is just a terrible decision, and just hurts both communities. There's a lot of split, and a lot of dota 2 viewers now used to be sc2 viewers that might've taken a look at WCS. Now that will never happend.
I'll agree that if the big players work together and even maybe promote each other, this can reach a whole another level. That be like OVER 9000. They could build esports cities in LA, NY, Cologne, Stockholm and Kiev together. Maybe someone do a round table like they had with organizers last year in Valencia.
I fear that most of this WCS schedule is directly connected that WCS have maneuvered themself into this with their rushed initial schedule and goal of completing 3 seasons until Blizzcon,
That is a good point. Blizzcon is closing in on them and they need to get through a whole 3rd season, with finals, before that date. They may be willing to take the hit on season finals to make sure they have enough time to get it all done in time for Blizzcon.
On July 23 2013 05:20 Canucklehead wrote: Horrible idea by blizzard. Have they never heard of viewer fatigue? I mean there's only so much sc2 a person can watch in one day. The dota 2 overlap seems intentional since that date has been known forever. Blizz probably just doesn't like valve over dota 2 and that whole lawsuit they had going with them.
On another note - No wonder bitter has been doing the redbull tournaments. Makes sense now with wcs am finals in the redbull studios.
I highly doubt the overlap is intentional because this hurts SC2 considerably more than Dota2.
It's intentional because the international date has been public for so long. I never said it was a smart move by blizzard, just that it was intentional.
On July 23 2013 05:34 Sc1pio wrote: Man Blizzard is going to look dumb when TI3 gets several times the viewers of their event...
The International happens once a year, its expected to get more viewers. No one is going to look dumb. Now if the Blizzcon finals were at the same time as The International now that would be a problem...
On July 23 2013 05:25 Uracil wrote: Fine for me since i don't follow Dota at all. EU Korea on the same weekend is a bit sad but i guess they couldn't avoid it.
Yeah, I wonder what else is going on that is prevent them from doing it other weekends. There might be issues with the production crews for NASL and ESL. They do have other Esports they work on that are not SC2.
Well i assume the grand slam will be at Gamescom which is 22.-25 August. So i don't think they can do it on the 17.-18. because the distance to the finals would be to short. And we haven't progressed far enough to hold it a week earlier.
By the time WCS AM comes on that weekend, nobody will even give a damn anymore. I expect a lower amount of viewers than last time even, viewing fatigue should be extremely big.
Even if you don't care about DotA, scheduling all the regional events on top of each other is terrible.
Blizzard wants to establish a viewer base for the regional tournaments in that respective region first and foremost, but they should bloody well accept that esports doesn't work that way at the moment.
Not even mentioning Twitch. Half of the viewers will have lag problems unless Twitch has doubled the size and amount of their data centers or whatever without anyone noticing.
I expected bad things from Blizzard, but this blows all my expectations out of the water. One of the dumbest ideas they could have had.
Hang in there, OGN/ESL/NASL. Maybe one day they'll learn. After this announcement, I don't really believe it myself anymore.
On July 23 2013 05:20 Canucklehead wrote: Horrible idea by blizzard. Have they never heard of viewer fatigue? I mean there's only so much sc2 a person can watch in one day. The dota 2 overlap seems intentional since that date has been known forever. Blizz probably just doesn't like valve over dota 2 and that whole lawsuit they had going with them.
On another note - No wonder bitter has been doing the redbull tournaments. Makes sense now with wcs am finals in the redbull studios.
I highly doubt the overlap is intentional because this hurts SC2 considerably more than Dota2.
It's intentional because the international date has been public for so long. I never said it was a smart move by blizzard, just that it was intentional.
Just because they knew this would happen doesn't mean it's intentional.
As I said in the rest of my post. If they're trying to run 3 finals in 1 weekend they don't have a lot of options. And considering how poorly the rest of WCS has been planned, how late every announcement has come.
It would surprise me more if blizzard was incompetent enough to think scheduling over TI was a good idea than if they are just incompetent enough to leave this late to the point where they have no other options.
Why does Blizzard do this to themselves. They are pouring their own money into WCS, and they choose to limit the casual viewership by quite a bit and it's a decision that THEY made. This is so weird. Blizzard loves making things hard for themselves.
On July 23 2013 05:25 Uracil wrote: Fine for me since i don't follow Dota at all. EU Korea on the same weekend is a bit sad but i guess they couldn't avoid it.
Yeah, I wonder what else is going on that is prevent them from doing it other weekends. There might be issues with the production crews for NASL and ESL. They do have other Esports they work on that are not SC2.
Well i assume the grand slam will be at Gamescom which is 22.-25 August. So i don't think they can do it on the 17.-18. because the distance to the finals would be to short. And we haven't progressed far enough to hold it a week earlier.
WCS EU definitely can, it's in the damn same city !
On July 23 2013 04:44 Eury wrote: Who cares about some dota tournament. If you are truly a Starcraft fan you will just watch Starcraft, and if you are not then so be it.
God forbid people should like more than one game...
On July 23 2013 04:45 theacox wrote: I would love it if valve ran Sc2 holy shit it would be amazing.
Yeah, ask the CS community about that. Dota 2 lives and dies with Gabe. Last time I checked he was still obese.
You realy seem like a hater. In the end there will be people competing for over $2,6 Million, so real esports guys will watch the bigger event.
I just prefer watching games that require a bit more skill. I felt the same thing about WoW when it was huge. I didn't watch the million dollar Painkiller tournament either nor CoD.
You actually have no idea what you're talking about, do you? Painkiller is a game that requires quite a bit of skill.
On July 23 2013 05:38 Moltisanti wrote: Whats TL3?
Not TL but TI, The International, the largest DotA 2 tournament.
twitch tv can not handle sc2 on fullscreen during dreamhack valencia and the concurrent views were about 200k now they want to stream vs the international which might get 1 mil loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool.I dunno.I tried supporting the sc2 scene as much as I can by leaving browser windows open even when the stream was laggy as hell.I close all other streams etc.But this sort of hits the nail in the coffin.Twitch will be unwatchable in eu and due to the fact blizzard does not want to use azubu or youtubelive which do not lag even when there are big lol competitions(i for example watch the lcs only on azubu since it barely lags while all the trolls are on twitch).They know it will lag,we know it will lag twitch knos it will lag.But they continue endlessly in their pursuit of making childish mistakes that not other company makes.Blizzard is wasting so many years of its proscene with reinveinting the wheel and making the dumbest mistakes possible.And all 3 finals in the same day.Realllly??????????Have they not learned anything form the homestorycup-redbulllan disaster.How many continuous hours do they think sc people will watch all of those tournaments.Oh and after the tournament is a flop they will come with a reddit ama and say:"We have taken your feedback form next year blablabla"I'm done.Concurrent iwth the international is ok but on twtich.really blizzard....
On July 23 2013 05:14 TumNarDok wrote: I think this a bold move.I sense David Ting behind it.He is THAT guy with the survival of the fittest. Also, RedBull in on it for the America finals is HUGE. (thanks Rob and Sean!) But also this schedule is better than have the Grand Slam Finals collide with anything.
Consumers must start to realize that we got now like 4,5+ esports titles with decent viewer numbers over/near 100k (LoL, DotA2, SC2, CSGO, CoD) and some smaller ones on top who run at up to lets say 20k (like Quake, EVE, BoI, WoT, WoW, MtG, HoN etc). That not every premiere circuit like MLG, IEM can and will have all their titles.
With all this we the consumer have to start to say adieu to watching everything live simply because these things WILL collide. A startup websites which provides links and search to VODs of these events can be a huge hit in the next 12-24 months Also, easy access to those VODs will help the organizers to further monetize them. Imagine.. you do your own TV/video program when you get home from this.
Anyway. .with usually downtimes on TI and dual monitors and energy drinks and a day off.. this one is no problem and welcome for me.
This is a good theory, if you look beside the fact that last years international had like 400+k viewers, is the biggest tournament dota 2 has by far, and has been hyped up for the last 3 months.
Competing with it is just a terrible decision, and just hurts both communities. There's a lot of split, and a lot of dota 2 viewers now used to be sc2 viewers that might've taken a look at WCS. Now that will never happend.
I'll agree that if the big players work together and even maybe promote each other, this can reach a whole another level. That be like OVER 9000. They could build esports cities in LA, NY, Cologne, Stockholm and Kiev together. Maybe someone do a round table like they had with organizers last year in Valencia.
I fear that most of this WCS schedule is directly connected that WCS have maneuvered themself into this with their rushed initial schedule and goal of completing 3 seasons until Blizzcon,
That is a good point. Blizzcon is closing in on them and they need to get through a whole 3rd season, with finals, before that date. They may be willing to take the hit on season finals to make sure they have enough time to get it all done in time for Blizzcon.
Ok, so I did that math. After the season 2 finals on August 10, 2013, they have 12 weeks to get season 3 of WCS done and in the bag. At the pace they have been going, with a 2 week break, they will be cutting it close. I can see why they don't want to delay if possible, even for TI3.
I kind of understands why everyone is so angry, but I don't think Blizzard had any choice in their schedueling. They could not have it any of the earlier weekends because of Dreamhack/Asus Rog/IEM. They could no postphone the league finals, because they need to scheduel the season finals. I think people are overreacting, it would be worse if the Season 2 finals crashed. The season 2 finals should be a much better thing anyways, this is only a qualifier (sortof)
On July 23 2013 05:43 treeco72 wrote: Twitch is so F***ed... and of course i'm not gonna miss TI3 for this... hopefully the in-game "dota tv" will still work
Dota tv ingame worked perfect with over 100k last year, and they've improved it quite a bit since that. No worries for that.
Wow, this is just a terrible idea. 3 major SC2 tournaments in the same weekend? Nice, you'll lose part of your most fanatic audience from exhaustion halfway through (that is, if they even bother to start with WCS AM). And since competition between the 3 WCS regions wasn't enough, lets pick the weekend that the main annual tournament of another popular esports title is held.
I wish that there'd be an honest explanation as to what the hell Blizzard was smoking when they came up with this. Though the answer would probably be something like "we screwed up the planning, this was the only choice left".
The only reason to Blizzard to make the 3 finals in the same weekend is lack of time, but at least they could delay the same schedule by 1 week to avoid the conflict with TI3. Just rush the first group stage of wcs season 3 and they would be fine.
On July 23 2013 05:51 Rannasha wrote: Wow, this is just a terrible idea. 3 major SC2 tournaments in the same weekend? Nice, you'll lose part of your most fanatic audience from exhaustion halfway through (that is, if they even bother to start with WCS AM). And since competition between the 3 WCS regions wasn't enough, lets pick the weekend that the main annual tournament of another popular esports title is held.
I wish that there'd be an honest explanation as to what the hell Blizzard was smoking when they came up with this. Though the answer would probably be something like "we screwed up the planning, this was the only choice left".
I think it's pretty much what you said. As Plansix has posted, they're going to have to rush to squeeze S3 in before Blizzcon, and another delay probably would sink that ship.
On July 23 2013 05:52 ivancype wrote: The only reason to Blizzard to make the 3 finals in the same weekend is lack of time, but at least they could delay the same schedule by 1 week to avoid the conflict with TI3. Just rush the first group stage of wcs season 3 and they would be fine.
The World of Tanks finals are the next weekend for North America, which is run by the NASL crew and they can't do both at the same time. I bet if I looked up LoL, ESL would be busy with something too.
On July 23 2013 05:14 TumNarDok wrote: I think this a bold move.I sense David Ting behind it.He is THAT guy with the survival of the fittest. Also, RedBull in on it for the America finals is HUGE. (thanks Rob and Sean!) But also this schedule is better than have the Grand Slam Finals collide with anything.
Consumers must start to realize that we got now like 4,5+ esports titles with decent viewer numbers over/near 100k (LoL, DotA2, SC2, CSGO, CoD) and some smaller ones on top who run at up to lets say 20k (like Quake, EVE, BoI, WoT, WoW, MtG, HoN etc). That not every premiere circuit like MLG, IEM can and will have all their titles.
With all this we the consumer have to start to say adieu to watching everything live simply because these things WILL collide. A startup websites which provides links and search to VODs of these events can be a huge hit in the next 12-24 months Also, easy access to those VODs will help the organizers to further monetize them. Imagine.. you do your own TV/video program when you get home from this.
Anyway. .with usually downtimes on TI and dual monitors and energy drinks and a day off.. this one is no problem and welcome for me.
This is a good theory, if you look beside the fact that last years international had like 400+k viewers, is the biggest tournament dota 2 has by far, and has been hyped up for the last 3 months.
Competing with it is just a terrible decision, and just hurts both communities. There's a lot of split, and a lot of dota 2 viewers now used to be sc2 viewers that might've taken a look at WCS. Now that will never happend.
I'll agree that if the big players work together and even maybe promote each other, this can reach a whole another level. That be like OVER 9000. They could build esports cities in LA, NY, Cologne, Stockholm and Kiev together. Maybe someone do a round table like they had with organizers last year in Valencia.
I fear that most of this WCS schedule is directly connected that WCS have maneuvered themself into this with their rushed initial schedule and goal of completing 3 seasons until Blizzcon,
That is a good point. Blizzcon is closing in on them and they need to get through a whole 3rd season, with finals, before that date. They may be willing to take the hit on season finals to make sure they have enough time to get it all done in time for Blizzcon.
Ok, so I did that math. After the season 2 finals on August 10, 2013, they have 12 weeks to get season 3 of WCS done and in the bag. At the pace they have been going, with a 2 week break, they will be cutting it close. I can see why they don't want to delay if possible, even for TI3.
To add even more to your point, the angry people should take a step back and ask themselves: is it worse to compete with TI3 for viewers, a tournament that while massive still showcases a different game entirely, or schedule the Season 2 finals earlier and trample all over DreamHack/Assembly/IEM?
Honestly I think Blizzard made the better choice here, unfortunate as though it may be.
We keep hoping for WCS to improve and get better. When shit like this happens, it really makes me think that they're just trying to run it into the ground. Honestly, makes me wonder if it would have been better to not make WCS, and just let the independent organizations run their own tournaments and have each one give points to go to Blizzcon. I'm shaking my fucking head.
On July 23 2013 05:51 Rannasha wrote: Wow, this is just a terrible idea. 3 major SC2 tournaments in the same weekend? Nice, you'll lose part of your most fanatic audience from exhaustion halfway through (that is, if they even bother to start with WCS AM). And since competition between the 3 WCS regions wasn't enough, lets pick the weekend that the main annual tournament of another popular esports title is held.
I wish that there'd be an honest explanation as to what the hell Blizzard was smoking when they came up with this. Though the answer would probably be something like "we screwed up the planning, this was the only choice left".
I think it's pretty much what you said. As Plansix has posted, they're going to have to rush to squeeze S3 in before Blizzcon, and another delay probably would sink that ship.
You'd think that at the time of the inception of WCS people could grab a calendar and count the weeks they had until their grand finals date to come up with a proper division of time. There were some breaks that could've been shaved down a bit.
Deplorable decision by Blizzard. If they seemed out of touch with the community before, this really tops it for me. TI3 will be what I'll be watching (if Twitch doesn't blow up). So many good things came from Blizzard, but overall it doesn't work anymore. Valve seems to be on the right track. They just seem to listen to the community. You feel it in the game and outside. As for Blizzard, I don't feel it, anywhere's. Which is sad because Sc2 and it's surrounding community (pros, casters, etc.) is amazing. They will suffer more in the end. You know Blizzard, the people that made your game (and your bank accounts) epic by playing it, broadcasting it, paying the bills of of it. Long term, Blizzard will just not be able to keep up...
On July 23 2013 05:49 badeanden wrote: I kind of understands why everyone is so angry, but I don't think Blizzard had any choice in their schedueling. They could not have it any of the earlier weekends because of Dreamhack/Asus Rog/IEM. They could no postphone the league finals, because they need to scheduel the season finals. I think people are overreacting, it would be worse if the Season 2 finals crashed. The season 2 finals should be a much better thing anyways, this is only a qualifier (sortof)
Well then Blizzard will have to suffer dealing with shitty routing for their streams and will have to deal with the lag backlash. Plus the TI3 dates were out way in advance so Blizzard has had the chance to schedule around it which they didn't for w/e reason. Blizzard will have the lowest amount of viewers they've ever had for each final. And if the stream crashes they're shit out of luck.
On July 23 2013 05:57 Riffandroll wrote: Deplorable decision by Blizzard. If they seemed out of touch with the community before, this really tops it for me. TI3 will be what I'll be watching (if Twitch doesn't blow up). So many good things came from Blizzard, but overall it doesn't work anymore. Valve seems to be on the right track. They just seem to listen to the community. You feel it in the game and outside. As for Blizzard, I don't feel it, anywhere's. Which is sad because Sc2 and it's surrounding community (pros, casters, etc.) is amazing. They will suffer more in the end. You know Blizzard, the people that made your game (and your bank accounts) epic by playing it, broadcasting it, paying the bills of of it. Long term, Blizzard will just not be able to keep up...
Don't forget that TI3 will be available for free in DotaTV so you have nothing to really worry about if twitch dies during games :D
On July 23 2013 05:51 Rannasha wrote: Wow, this is just a terrible idea. 3 major SC2 tournaments in the same weekend? Nice, you'll lose part of your most fanatic audience from exhaustion halfway through (that is, if they even bother to start with WCS AM). And since competition between the 3 WCS regions wasn't enough, lets pick the weekend that the main annual tournament of another popular esports title is held.
I wish that there'd be an honest explanation as to what the hell Blizzard was smoking when they came up with this. Though the answer would probably be something like "we screwed up the planning, this was the only choice left".
I think it's pretty much what you said. As Plansix has posted, they're going to have to rush to squeeze S3 in before Blizzcon, and another delay probably would sink that ship.
You'd think that at the time of the inception of WCS people could grab a calendar and count the weeks they had until their grand finals date to come up with a proper division of time. There were some breaks that could've been shaved down a bit.
Considering how terribly the WCS was initially done, I'm completely unsurprised that the foresight needed to avoid this was lacking.
lol Valve's got that steam money (which I'm sure many of you contributed to this past week =P). Sigh, Blizzard's WoW money is running (relatively) low these days.
I also wonder if the TI3 prize pool is a function of Valve wanting to throw down with Riot. If it weren't for heated competition in the MOBA space, I just can't see Valve upping the ante like that.
Perhaps it's time to see how much there are SC2 fans.. FOR REAL..
I mean - doesn't matter that there are other tournaments (which I really find it funny how can there be a prize pool of 1M for a game that almost as equal amount of viewers are gotten), as long as the presented content/games/production is good..
Also - the 2 games weren't made by the same company, so it's not a Blizzard game, why the hell would they schedule themselves over another event ?? Even if they don't get as much viewers - at least Blizz will go their own way..
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: Am I the only one that doesn't understand the shitstorm? What's the big deal...
They can hold their tournament whenever they want, why care about a tournament for another game.
Because it is literally the biggest tournament of the year for Dota 2 that now has the largest price pool in Esports history that was basically funded mostly by fans. It will overshadow WCS by miles which isn't good for the SC2 scene considering most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans. Which basically puts the fans in a spot of choosing which to watch. Also no you won't really have time to watch WCS during TI3 because Valve makes sure there is absolutely minimal downtime in between matches.
It's all about Blizzard seeing how shitty the viewership will be because of this decision. If you thought last year was low for NA finals it seems that the views will be even lower than last year.
On July 23 2013 06:02 VArsovskiSC wrote: Perhaps it's time to see how much there are SC2 fans.. FOR REAL..
I mean - doesn't matter that there are other tournaments (which I really find it funny how can there be a prize pool of 1M for a game that almost as equal amount of viewers are gotten w.t.f.), as long as the presented content/games/production is good..
Also - the 2 games weren't made by the same company, so it's not a Blizzard game, why the hell would they schedule themselves over another event ?? Even if they don't get as much viewers - at least Blizz will go their own way..
Ok lets give an easy example here for you. So your saying that if I'm a fan of American Football and Soccer that if there is a conflict in scheduling that I'm only a TRUE fan of the sport if I pick one over the other?
Pretty much what your saying here is that TRUE fans can only like 1 game? People ended up complaining about how low the viewership for the finals were last year for NA. Those numbers WILL drop substantially because of Blizzard's scheduling. If Blizzard ever wants more sponsors for their WCS none will bite at the bit to support it if the viewership is terrible. Plus TI3 is used by Valve to promote Dota 2 and only Dota 2. They literally don't put their brand on anything at the event. Its all Dota 2 and the teams involved. Even more is that TI3 is even more hyped than last years was.
GL Twitch trying to handle all the TI3 traffic and keeping the streams alive. I'll be at the event hoping twitch is able to handle itself for the viewers that are unable to attend. Well even then there is Dota TV if twitch fails
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: Am I the only one that doesn't understand the shitstorm? What's the big deal...
They can hold their tournament whenever they want, why care about a tournament for another game.
Well, dota 2 and starcraft hold hands(usually) to push e-sports to mainstream. They collaborate. Blizzard just shot themselves in the foot with this. WCS will have low viewer count, and even than, one can speculate how many of those viewers will run WCS in the background while watching TI3
On July 23 2013 06:02 VArsovskiSC wrote: Perhaps it's time to see how much there are SC2 fans.. FOR REAL..
I mean - doesn't matter that there are other tournaments (which I really find it funny how can there be a prize pool of 1M for a game that almost as equal amount of viewers are gotten w.t.f.), as long as the presented content/games/production is good..
Also - the 2 games weren't made by the same company, so it's not a Blizzard game, why the hell would they schedule themselves over another event ?? Even if they don't get as much viewers - at least Blizz will go their own way..
There is no other weekend they can get it done. NASL is doing the world of tanks finals next weekend. I have no idea whats going on in Korea, but I bet its something because LCS is wrapping up. August is crowded with Esports stuff and all their production companies have, you know, produce Esports.
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: Am I the only one that doesn't understand the shitstorm? What's the big deal...
They can hold their tournament whenever they want, why care about a tournament for another game.
Well, dota 2 and starcraft hold hands(usually) to push e-sports to mainstream. They collaborate. Blizzard just shot themselves in the foot with this. WCS will have low viewer count, and even than, one can speculate how many of those viewers will run WCS in the background while watching TI3
That really needs a source. Else it's just your own personal fabrication.
On July 23 2013 06:00 c0ldfusion wrote: lol Valve's got that steam money (which I'm sure many of you contributed to this past week =P). Sigh, Blizzard's WoW money is running (relatively) low these days.
I also wonder if the TI3 prize pool is a function of Valve wanting to throw down with Riot. If it weren't for heated competition in the MOBA space, I just can't see Valve upping the ante like that.
Valve didnt increase the prize pool from last year by themselves. The difference this year is a compendium sold in the dota2 store, where 25% of the price went directly to the prize pool, and it sold enough to increase the prize with over a million so far.
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: Am I the only one that doesn't understand the shitstorm? What's the big deal...
They can hold their tournament whenever they want, why care about a tournament for another game.
Of course they CAN. But why they should care is pretty obvious.
Since we're all talking about this now anyway, I just want to throw this question out there, is there actually a big overlap between Dota2 spectators and SC2 spectators?
Going by my experience from WC3 and Dota1, I don't expect there to be too much of an intersection between the two. I personally do not watch any MOBAs and my friends who play MOBAs could care less about SC2.
Twitch infrastructure aside, a scheduling conflict doesn't matter too much if people mostly watch one or the other exclusively.
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: Am I the only one that doesn't understand the shitstorm? What's the big deal...
They can hold their tournament whenever they want, why care about a tournament for another game.
Well, dota 2 and starcraft hold hands(usually) to push e-sports to mainstream. They collaborate. Blizzard just shot themselves in the foot with this. WCS will have low viewer count, and even than, one can speculate how many of those viewers will run WCS in the background while watching TI3
That really needs a source. Else it's just your own personal fabrication.
Well, the source is that most of the dota 2 players who are interested in e-sports also watch starcraft events(pros tweeting, etc.), and the fact that TL.net is covering dota 2 many starcraft fans tune in to big dota 2 events. I call that hand-holding.
Uh i guess if they wanna compete with TI3 then that's up to them. Bold move that most probably will backfire but i guess it is somewhat acceptable that when planning they do not discuss with other games.
But why they decide to make their own regionals compete with each other is beyond me.At least WCS KR will have its viewers ,so will WCS EU with its awesome storylines ( Stephano's swansong). But WCS NA is in peril.
I guess maybe they are relying on people to stay home the whole weekend and have multi streams up. So even if the viewers fall asleep they still get a lot of viewers numbers :p
this is so retarded omg =.= why not the next, also stretches it out abit for the players... this is really stupid but we prolly wont change it... altho i hope blizz realized how bad this is
One of the main problems for me is that they've scheduled it as 20 hours solid of SC2, that's overkill even if you are solely interested in SC2. That's bad enough without it clashing with TI3.
On July 23 2013 05:49 badeanden wrote: I kind of understands why everyone is so angry, but I don't think Blizzard had any choice in their schedueling. They could not have it any of the earlier weekends because of Dreamhack/Asus Rog/IEM. They could no postphone the league finals, because they need to scheduel the season finals. I think people are overreacting, it would be worse if the Season 2 finals crashed. The season 2 finals should be a much better thing anyways, this is only a qualifier (sortof)
There is always a choice. Even if you don't feel like there's any way, you still find a way. ST_Life knows what I'm talking about.
On July 23 2013 06:11 Zeroxk wrote: Once again TL overreacts
Just a little bit, but it is pretty standard. We needed some good drama. In this case, there really isn't a lot of room in August and there is shit going on every weekend.
I watch pretty much all Dota 2 events, and I haven't played sc2 since the beta started but I'll still watch the bigger sc2 events. I will not be watching wcs come August. I think a lot of people who converted from sc2 to Dota probably still watch Starcraft events.
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: Am I the only one that doesn't understand the shitstorm? What's the big deal...
They can hold their tournament whenever they want, why care about a tournament for another game.
Of course they CAN. But why they should care is pretty obvious.
Since we're all talking about this now anyway, I just want to throw this question out there, is there actually a big overlap between Dota2 spectators and SC2 spectators?
Going by my experience from WC3 and Dota1, I don't expect there to be too much of an intersection between the two. I personally do not watch any MOBAs and my friends who play MOBAs could care less about SC2.
Twitch infrastructure aside, a scheduling conflict doesn't matter too much if people mostly watch one or the other exclusively.
I'm wondering about that as well. Even if you really are into both games, it's hard anough to have a kind-of-normal life and still follow the SC2 scene. I guess DOTA2's is not much smaller (haha)...
I just don't think it's really feasible to follow both games and not leaving out some things (like SPL or, for example a WCS not of your region). And what about weekend-events that have both games? oO
[QUOTE]On July 23 2013 06:02 Random_Guy09 wrote: [QUOTE]On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: considering most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans. .[/QUOTE] Speak for yourself, I might give TI3 a watch but I couldnt care less about dota.
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: Am I the only one that doesn't understand the shitstorm? What's the big deal...
They can hold their tournament whenever they want, why care about a tournament for another game.
Well, dota 2 and starcraft hold hands(usually) to push e-sports to mainstream. They collaborate. Blizzard just shot themselves in the foot with this. WCS will have low viewer count, and even than, one can speculate how many of those viewers will run WCS in the background while watching TI3
So an "expected" lower viewer count will somehow make you enjoy the games less? I just want to watch Soulkey and MVP straight up smash kids, if there were 10 viewers it wouldn't affect the games...
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: Am I the only one that doesn't understand the shitstorm? What's the big deal...
They can hold their tournament whenever they want, why care about a tournament for another game.
Of course they CAN. But why they should care is pretty obvious.
Since we're all talking about this now anyway, I just want to throw this question out there, is there actually a big overlap between Dota2 spectators and SC2 spectators?
Going by my experience from WC3 and Dota1, I don't expect there to be too much of an intersection between the two. I personally do not watch any MOBAs and my friends who play MOBAs could care less about SC2.
Twitch infrastructure aside, a scheduling conflict doesn't matter too much if people mostly watch one or the other exclusively.
I'm wondering about that as well. Even if you really are into both games, it's hard anough to have a kind-of-normal life and still follow the SC2 scene. I guess DOTA2's is not much smaller (haha)...
I just don't think it's really feasible to follow both games and not leaving out some things (like SPL or, for example a WCS not of your region). And what about weekend-events that have both games? oO
I am not going to watch all of TI3 or WCS, even if they were on different weekends. I have yard work to do.
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: Am I the only one that doesn't understand the shitstorm? What's the big deal...
They can hold their tournament whenever they want, why care about a tournament for another game.
Of course they CAN. But why they should care is pretty obvious.
Since we're all talking about this now anyway, I just want to throw this question out there, is there actually a big overlap between Dota2 spectators and SC2 spectators?
Going by my experience from WC3 and Dota1, I don't expect there to be too much of an intersection between the two. I personally do not watch any MOBAs and my friends who play MOBAs could care less about SC2.
Twitch infrastructure aside, a scheduling conflict doesn't matter too much if people mostly watch one or the other exclusively.
I'm wondering about that as well. Even if you really are into both games, it's hard anough to have a kind-of-normal life and still follow the SC2 scene. I guess DOTA2's is not much smaller (haha)...
I just don't think it's really feasible to follow both games and not leaving out some things (like SPL or, for example a WCS not of your region). And what about weekend-events that have both games? oO
Yeah, can we get the mods to comment on this (based on user preferences I guess)?
I see some people making the claim that there is significant overlap in the fan-base but that doesn't make sense to me intuitively. TL is probably has solid data on this.
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: Am I the only one that doesn't understand the shitstorm? What's the big deal...
They can hold their tournament whenever they want, why care about a tournament for another game.
Well, dota 2 and starcraft hold hands(usually) to push e-sports to mainstream. They collaborate. Blizzard just shot themselves in the foot with this. WCS will have low viewer count, and even than, one can speculate how many of those viewers will run WCS in the background while watching TI3
So an "expected" lower viewer count will somehow make you enjoy the games less? I just want to watch Soulkey and MVP straight up smash kids, if there were 10 viewers it wouldn't affect the games...
Lower viewer counts are bad for the game, and this will be the biggest test on twitch's service that I can think of to date.
And I love watching WCS and dota 2, but TI3 is just too big of a deal to miss, and with blizzard making the decision, it's their loss.
On July 23 2013 04:28 Finrod1 wrote: How stupid is this? Many sc2 fans are dota2 fans aswell. I'm not going to miss ti3 so... thats it then.
edit: and we probably cant watch either because twitch will be dead^^
well so many sc2 events we cant look even for OTHER games and i personally dont know any person who watch both (more lol sc2 etc) so ... its impossible to not hit aynthing
i rly rly dont think sc2 should look for dota2 ... i mean really next time we look for football (not handegg) or what ? i mean come on ... sc2 is best and sc2 watchers know if someone have to decide between dota2 and sc2 finals ... thats not a questions guys
TI3 before anything else I'm afraid. Even if they've already lost me as a player, Blizzard just lost me as a viewer as well. This shows they have no regards what so ever for esports as a whole.
I first came to TL for SC/SC2, but now I'm sticking around mostly for DotA2...
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: considering most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans. .
Speak for yourself, I might give TI3 a watch but I couldnt care less about dota.
If only I would kill everyone that responses to a "most people are xxx" question with "well, i am not"
well perhaps the "most people" sentences (is no question) is the problem ??? because you generalize from YOUR point of view, me having like 100 guys in sc2 and i think 2 or so watch or play dota2 ? i mean dont speak for everyone because you wont hit everyone
On July 23 2013 06:18 RiSkysc2 wrote: Blizzard has proved in the past that if we scream and shout loud enough they will budge.
They've also proved countless times that they're fucking retarded.
ok then i scream louder GOOD DATE because all other dates would be horrible for me its like perfect fitting xD
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: Am I the only one that doesn't understand the shitstorm? What's the big deal...
They can hold their tournament whenever they want, why care about a tournament for another game.
Of course they CAN. But why they should care is pretty obvious.
Since we're all talking about this now anyway, I just want to throw this question out there, is there actually a big overlap between Dota2 spectators and SC2 spectators?
Part of the point of Blizzard supporting esports and WCS is because they want to ATTRACT new viewers to their game. Blizzard isn't planning on making any significant money on stream revenue and viewer count. Blizzard is counting on esports maintaining and growing the SC2 fan base so that people: a) Buy SC2/HotS; b) Will buy LotV when it finally comes out; and c) To some extent, grow to like the Blizzard brand more and consider buying their other products.
So, Blizzard doesn't gain anything from people keeping the stream open in the background, for example. Blizzard needs to win mindshare, and I think this is very counter-productive (by killing a lot of the hype for WCS by triple-booking themselves on one weekend and then also trying to compete with TI3 for viewership while simultaneously giving up any chance of pulling in a DOTA2 player who might consider checking out this WCS thing if it were on any other weekend).
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: Am I the only one that doesn't understand the shitstorm? What's the big deal...
They can hold their tournament whenever they want, why care about a tournament for another game.
Well, dota 2 and starcraft hold hands(usually) to push e-sports to mainstream. They collaborate. Blizzard just shot themselves in the foot with this. WCS will have low viewer count, and even than, one can speculate how many of those viewers will run WCS in the background while watching TI3
So an "expected" lower viewer count will somehow make you enjoy the games less? I just want to watch Soulkey and MVP straight up smash kids, if there were 10 viewers it wouldn't affect the games...
e-sports is not just about the quality of the games anymore. Teams will get less exposure in WCS >> bad for sponsors, etc.
[QUOTE]On July 23 2013 06:12 Usagi wrote: [QUOTE]On July 23 2013 06:02 Random_Guy09 wrote: [QUOTE]On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: considering most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans. .[/QUOTE] Speak for yourself, I might give TI3 a watch but I couldnt care less about dota.[/QUOTE]
Well, maybe you're going to care about WCS being on the same date as TI when some sc2 sponsors will pull out because of the shitty management of Blizzard
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: Am I the only one that doesn't understand the shitstorm? What's the big deal...
They can hold their tournament whenever they want, why care about a tournament for another game.
Well, dota 2 and starcraft hold hands(usually) to push e-sports to mainstream. They collaborate. Blizzard just shot themselves in the foot with this. WCS will have low viewer count, and even than, one can speculate how many of those viewers will run WCS in the background while watching TI3
So an "expected" lower viewer count will somehow make you enjoy the games less? I just want to watch Soulkey and MVP straight up smash kids, if there were 10 viewers it wouldn't affect the games...
e-sports is not just about the quality of the games anymore. Teams will get less exposure in WCS >> bad for sponsors, etc.
wcs is a minus so whatever blizzard still pump the money in, perhaps they learn not to make all 1 day and split eu and us to finals too
[QUOTE]On July 23 2013 06:20 Turbulencedota wrote: [QUOTE]On July 23 2013 06:12 Usagi wrote: [QUOTE]On July 23 2013 06:02 Random_Guy09 wrote: [QUOTE]On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: considering most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans. .[/QUOTE] Speak for yourself, I might give TI3 a watch but I couldnt care less about dota.[/QUOTE]
Well, maybe you're going to care about WCS being on the same date as TI when some sc2 sponsors will pull out because of the shitty management of Blizzard[/QUOTE]
meh as if the finals would have bad viewercounts ^^ it will be nice as usual ... nothing to fear
On July 23 2013 06:18 RiSkysc2 wrote: Blizzard has proved in the past that if we scream and shout loud enough they will budge.
They've also proved countless times that they're fucking retarded.
They might be able to move EU, but NA has to be that weekend or the end of August. And if its the end of August, they won't have enough time for season 3 and Blizzcon.
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: considering most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans. .
Speak for yourself, I might give TI3 a watch but I couldnt care less about dota.
If only I would kill everyone that responses to a "most people are xxx" question with "well, i am not"
why? It wasn't even a question, just a bold statement with no source. Feel free to say that you are, but I think it's a valuable contribution as long as there are not 200 people doing that at once
On July 23 2013 04:28 Finrod1 wrote: How stupid is this? Many sc2 fans are dota2 fans aswell. I'm not going to miss ti3 so... thats it then.
edit: and we probably cant watch either because twitch will be dead^^
well so many sc2 events we cant look even for OTHER games and i personally dont know any person who watch both (more lol sc2 etc) so ... its impossible to not hit aynthing
i rly rly dont think sc2 should look for dota2 ... i mean really next time we look for football (not handegg) or what ? i mean come on ... sc2 is best and sc2 watchers know if someone have to decide between dota2 and sc2 finals ... thats not a questions guys
not everyone looks through a pipe like you. I wouldnt say the majority of the starcraft fans are diehard hardcore #nothingelse fans
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: considering most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans. .
Speak for yourself, I might give TI3 a watch but I couldnt care less about dota.
If only I would kill everyone that responses to a "most people are xxx" question with "well, i am not"
How about backing up random bullshit claims like "most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans" with some factual evidence instead?
Backing up claims with facts is for proviing things in real life. This is the internet, we know things are true and that is just the way it is. Facts are for wusses.
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: considering most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans. .
Speak for yourself, I might give TI3 a watch but I couldnt care less about dota.
If only I would kill everyone that responses to a "most people are xxx" question with "well, i am not"
How about backing up random bullshit claims like "most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans" with some factual evidence instead?
Backing up claims with facts is for proviing things in real life. This is the internet, we know things are true and that is just the way it is. Facts are for wusses.
Word.
Sad that many people in this thread hop on the "blizzard r such retard ilek omg" bandwagon instead of reading your posts.
And who the fuck cares? This is a SC2 site, why would we care for a Casualgame tournament? Its not like MLG failed because it was on the same weekend as Evo...
And who the fuck cares? This is a SC2 site, why would we care for a Casualgame tournament? Its not like MLG failed because it was on the same weekend as Evo...
Actually this is a Brood War, SC2 and DotA 2 site. ^^
Honestly, Dota tends to have enough downtime and SC2 tends to go quickly enough that I'm not super worried about overlap. Twitch servers are going to be crying blood for certain, but DotaTV should at least take some of that load off if things get bad.
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: considering most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans. .
Speak for yourself, I might give TI3 a watch but I couldnt care less about dota.
If only I would kill everyone that responses to a "most people are xxx" question with "well, i am not"
How about backing up random bullshit claims like "most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans" with some factual evidence instead?
Backing up claims with facts is for proviing things in real life. This is the internet, we know things are true and that is just the way it is. Facts are for wusses.
And still even when the original claim is not true, any response like "well i am not" is just senseless.
And who the fuck cares? This is a SC2 site, why would we care for a Casualgame tournament? Its not like MLG failed because it was on the same weekend as Evo...
WTF are you talking about. Team Liquid has a Dota 2 team in THE INTERNATIONAL! Did you wonder what all those stories were that were not about SC2 were?
This is such a bad idea for so many reasons... I love starcraft, but I can't watch it for 16 hours straight. Having all 3 in the same weekend will make it impossible to follow all of them at once for most fans... and competing with TI3... yes, in fact, starcraft fans are also frequently dota fans.
And who the fuck cares? This is a SC2 site, why would we care for a Casualgame tournament? Its not like MLG failed because it was on the same weekend as Evo...
WTF are you talking about. Team Liquid has a Dota 2 team in THE INTERNATIONAL! Did you wonder what all those stories were that were not about SC2 were?
Many people have excluded Dota news. I didn't even know TL had a Dota team before now.
And who the fuck cares? This is a SC2 site, why would we care for a Casualgame tournament? Its not like MLG failed because it was on the same weekend as Evo...
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: considering most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans. .
Speak for yourself, I might give TI3 a watch but I couldnt care less about dota.
If only I would kill everyone that responses to a "most people are xxx" question with "well, i am not"
How about backing up random bullshit claims like "most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans" with some factual evidence instead?
I believe viewernumbers will provide you enough evidence. If not even that, nothing can prove that to you
How? DotA 2's viewer base is already many times bigger. How do you know if SC2 getting, let's say, 20k viewers less on average during the whole event is going to be due to them watching TI3 instead of technical issues with Twitch or something completely different like being away on holiday or something? How can you prove that beyond shadow of a doubt?
And even then, a 10-20k decrease in viewership would still be far less than "most SC2 fans", as I'm sure you're well aware.
On July 23 2013 06:27 Arnstein wrote: I actually think this will be fun. I will buy a shitload of food and just stay inside watching all games for 20+ hours.
And who the fuck cares? This is a SC2 site, why would we care for a Casualgame tournament? Its not like MLG failed because it was on the same weekend as Evo...
WTF are you talking about. Team Liquid has a Dota 2 team in THE INTERNATIONAL! Did you wonder what all those stories were that were not about SC2 were?
Many people have excluded Dota news. I didn't even know TL had a Dota team before now.
I kinda do and my social life as well. The girlfriend will not approve of 20 hours of SC2 followed by the TI3. She would be totally into one, but both is asking for trouble.
This is kinda bad because Blizzard is showing how amateur they are in pulling this stunt, I wonder how sponsors and other organizations will feel about this.
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: considering most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans. .
Speak for yourself, I might give TI3 a watch but I couldnt care less about dota.
If only I would kill everyone that responses to a "most people are xxx" question with "well, i am not"
How about backing up random bullshit claims like "most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans" with some factual evidence instead?
I believe viewernumbers will provide you enough evidence. If not even that, nothing can prove that to you
Speaking as another SC2 fan who isn't a dota fan (though I'm sure it's a great game), how on earth can you figure that? How will you know if the viewers of one are the viewers of another by simply the numbers alone?
The fact of the matter is you have given zero evidence to support your claim.
i do not mind sc2 being on the same time as the international.I am quite used to watching both the lcs and the wcs at the same time.The only thing that is bothersome is that twitch will be unwatchable in europe during the international3.They are barely watchable during dreamhack valencia.I do not mind watching 2 esports at the same time.It is quite fun but twitch will be impossible to watch.Exclusive contract with twitch was a bad idea for blizzard.Youtubelive and azubu do not lag at all during the lcs
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: Am I the only one that doesn't understand the shitstorm? What's the big deal...
They can hold their tournament whenever they want, why care about a tournament for another game.
Of course they CAN. But why they should care is pretty obvious.
Since we're all talking about this now anyway, I just want to throw this question out there, is there actually a big overlap between Dota2 spectators and SC2 spectators?
Part of the point of Blizzard supporting esports and WCS is because they want to ATTRACT new viewers to their game. Blizzard isn't planning on making any significant money on stream revenue and viewer count. Blizzard is counting on esports maintaining and growing the SC2 fan base so that people: a) Buy SC2/HotS; b) Will buy LotV when it finally comes out; and c) To some extent, grow to like the Blizzard brand more and consider buying their other products.
So, Blizzard doesn't gain anything from people keeping the stream open in the background, for example. Blizzard needs to win mindshare, and I think this is very counter-productive (by killing a lot of the hype for WCS by triple-booking themselves on one weekend and then also trying to compete with TI3 for viewership while simultaneously giving up any chance of pulling in a DOTA2 player who might consider checking out this WCS thing if it were on any other weekend).
Fair enough. This is very sound argument from Blizzard's standpoint. I was speaking more from the perspective of existing fans.
We still need a poll in the OP or something to see how many people follow both games on this site.
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: considering most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans. .
Speak for yourself, I might give TI3 a watch but I couldnt care less about dota.
If only I would kill everyone that responses to a "most people are xxx" question with "well, i am not"
How about backing up random bullshit claims like "most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans" with some factual evidence instead?
I believe viewernumbers will provide you enough evidence. If not even that, nothing can prove that to you
Speaking as another SC2 fan who isn't a dota fan (though I'm sure it's a great game), how on earth can you figure that? How will you know if the viewers of one are the viewers of another by simply the numbers alone?
The fact of the matter is you have given zero evidence to support your claim.
for competent statisticians, it should be possible to some extent to explore the impact of TI3 on WCS viewership and vice versa.
This is stunningly poor planning. Even without potential problems with Twitch (which was barely able to LCS NA last weekend), and even without TI being scheduled for the same weekend, scheduling all three finals for the same weekend is nuts. It's like they expect each region to only watch "their" finals, when in reality they'll start with a lot of viewers and end with very few - and that's without the massive issues I already described.
If they think they're going to compete with Dota2 they're insane - all their going to end up doing is ruining their viewer numbers for the weekend while Dota pulls in a ton for TI (which people can view regardless of Twitch crapping out), and LoL pulls in crazy numbers the next weekend because it's the last week of the LCS regular season, it's a super week (tons of games - and exciting ones because it'll determine who makes the playoffs) and there are no major events to compete with because Riot understands scheduling/competition/economics.
It's pretty clear the winner here is Riot - they have a massive event to themselves the week after this massive clusterfuck crashes twitch (which they also don't have to worry about because they use youtube and azubu as well).
And I love LoL, but it sucks to see Blizzard fucking things up for themselves and Dota2 (even if Dota won't get fucked that hard) - I like Dota2 and SC2 also.
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: considering most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans. .
Speak for yourself, I might give TI3 a watch but I couldnt care less about dota.
If only I would kill everyone that responses to a "most people are xxx" question with "well, i am not"
How about backing up random bullshit claims like "most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans" with some factual evidence instead?
I believe viewernumbers will provide you enough evidence. If not even that, nothing can prove that to you
Speaking as another SC2 fan who isn't a dota fan (though I'm sure it's a great game), how on earth can you figure that? How will you know if the viewers of one are the viewers of another by simply the numbers alone?
The fact of the matter is you have given zero evidence to support your claim.
for competent statisticians, it should be possible to some extent to explore the impact of TI3 on WCS viewership and vice versa.
It's very easy, we just need a poll in the OP of this thread.
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: considering most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans. .
Speak for yourself, I might give TI3 a watch but I couldnt care less about dota.
If only I would kill everyone that responses to a "most people are xxx" question with "well, i am not"
How about backing up random bullshit claims like "most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans" with some factual evidence instead?
I believe viewernumbers will provide you enough evidence. If not even that, nothing can prove that to you
How? DotA 2's viewer base is already many times bigger. How do you know if SC2 getting, let's say, 20k viewers less on average during the whole event is going to be due to them watching TI3 instead of technical issues with Twitch or something completely different like being away on holiday or something? How can you prove that beyond shadow of a doubt?
And even then, a 10-20k decrease in viewership would still be far less than "most SC2 fans", as I'm sure you're well aware.
The issue is that for starcraft 20k viewers is a BIG proportion(let's say 20% for EU,35% for KR and 45% for NA Correct me if I'm wrong, but WCS S1 EU had the biggest viewing numbers(~110k)(i dont follow sc2 as much). and Dota 2 at the moment shines the most in EU. Maybe this is a bald prediction, but I'd say EU wont go past 75k that weekend. p.s:I'd be happy if I'd be wrong
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: considering most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans. .
Speak for yourself, I might give TI3 a watch but I couldnt care less about dota.
If only I would kill everyone that responses to a "most people are xxx" question with "well, i am not"
How about backing up random bullshit claims like "most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans" with some factual evidence instead?
I believe viewernumbers will provide you enough evidence. If not even that, nothing can prove that to you
Speaking as another SC2 fan who isn't a dota fan (though I'm sure it's a great game), how on earth can you figure that? How will you know if the viewers of one are the viewers of another by simply the numbers alone?
The fact of the matter is you have given zero evidence to support your claim.
for competent statisticians, it should be possible to some extent to explore the impact of TI3 on WCS viewership and vice versa.
Oh there most definitely will be a noticeable impact, I don't think anyone's contesting that.
However the claim that "most SC2 fans are also Dota 2 fans" (keyword "most", not "many", not "quite a few", but more than half) is an absolutely ridiculous thing to just say without any evidence whatsoever.
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: considering most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans. .
Speak for yourself, I might give TI3 a watch but I couldnt care less about dota.
If only I would kill everyone that responses to a "most people are xxx" question with "well, i am not"
How about backing up random bullshit claims like "most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans" with some factual evidence instead?
I believe viewernumbers will provide you enough evidence. If not even that, nothing can prove that to you
How? DotA 2's viewer base is already many times bigger. How do you know if SC2 getting, let's say, 20k viewers less on average during the whole event is going to be due to them watching TI3 instead of technical issues with Twitch or something completely different like being away on holiday or something? How can you prove that beyond shadow of a doubt?
And even then, a 10-20k decrease in viewership would still be far less than "most SC2 fans", as I'm sure you're well aware.
The issue is that for starcraft 20k viewers is a BIG proportion(let's say 20% for EU,35% for KR and 45% for NA Correct me if I'm wrong, but WCS S1 EU had the biggest viewing numbers(~110k)(i dont follow sc2 as much). and Dota 2 at the moment shines the most in EU. Maybe this is a bald prediction, but I'd say EU wont go past 75k that weekend. p.s:I'd be happy if I'd be wrong
I think you're not understanding very well what I'm saying.
Again, this clash of schedules will most definitely affect SC2 in a significant way, but I don't think that more than half of the viewers are going to watch TI3 instead. In fact I'd attribute a fair share of the decrease simply to Twitch technical issues in Europe.
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: considering most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans. .
Speak for yourself, I might give TI3 a watch but I couldnt care less about dota.
If only I would kill everyone that responses to a "most people are xxx" question with "well, i am not"
How about backing up random bullshit claims like "most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans" with some factual evidence instead?
I believe viewernumbers will provide you enough evidence. If not even that, nothing can prove that to you
Speaking as another SC2 fan who isn't a dota fan (though I'm sure it's a great game), how on earth can you figure that? How will you know if the viewers of one are the viewers of another by simply the numbers alone?
The fact of the matter is you have given zero evidence to support your claim.
for competent statisticians, it should be possible to some extent to explore the impact of TI3 on WCS viewership and vice versa.
It's very easy, we just need a poll in the OP of this thread.
Yea that is the way to go to make an unbiased statistic.
On July 23 2013 06:29 Taku wrote: This is kinda bad because Blizzard is showing how amateur they are in pulling this stunt, I wonder how sponsors and other organizations will feel about this.
Maybe it's their version of THE ULTIMATE SHOWDOWN and they want to prove that SC2 is better than DOTA? Nah, really don't know... But I guess they have overloaded the SC2 calendar already with so many tournaments now (TB complained a lot of times about finding days to do his own tournament on without overlapping with WCS) that this is "the" weekend. There's still a whole WCS season to do with season finals and followed by the grand finals... maybe they also want to introduce a kind of winter break?
i can't even believe how bad of a business decision this is. dota is our friend. more dota viewers = more esports viewers = more starcraft 2 viewers.
in 2010 i would have said blizzard was at the forefront of advancing esports... now they have become SC2's worst enemy. Maybe its time the community lets blizzard know that we liked it better when they let the community do all the hard decisions...
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: considering most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans. .
Speak for yourself, I might give TI3 a watch but I couldnt care less about dota.
If only I would kill everyone that responses to a "most people are xxx" question with "well, i am not"
How about backing up random bullshit claims like "most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans" with some factual evidence instead?
I believe viewernumbers will provide you enough evidence. If not even that, nothing can prove that to you
Speaking as another SC2 fan who isn't a dota fan (though I'm sure it's a great game), how on earth can you figure that? How will you know if the viewers of one are the viewers of another by simply the numbers alone?
The fact of the matter is you have given zero evidence to support your claim.
for competent statisticians, it should be possible to some extent to explore the impact of TI3 on WCS viewership and vice versa.
It's very easy, we just need a poll in the OP of this thread.
Yea that is the way to go to make an unbiased statistic.
Biased in what way? Based on what forum this thread belongs to? Well of course, I'm just saying it'd be an easy thing to do and right now we have nothing.
Ideally there would be a poll on the front page of this website. (Yes, I'm aware that it will still be biased, but it'd be the best data we have on TL.)
As an equal fan of dota and sc2 - i could not give a damn.
In WCS there are 4 global season finals, 1 blizzcon gigantic world tournament, and 12 regional finals per year. If some of them are on the same time as international - then i guess i just maybe watch starcraft during TI3 downtime.
Probably will tune in for the biggest games - unless something equally big is going on at dota.
Its actually awesome, once i feel like i have watched too much dota i can watch starcraft and vice versa.
... starcraft players are just going to get bit less exposure - but its just few events out of so many this year. And anybody who thinks dota2 is going to lose above marginal amount of viewers is delusional.
sigh, why do they make use choose between dota2 and the sc2 scene. this isn't helping.
I'm sorry but i'll watch the OSL and TI3 since those are what interest me most, but eu and na are gonna get massive dips in their viewership competing against TI3... 2.6 million dollars on the line, and you want to throw your 100k tournament against it? yeah right. goddamnit blizzard, I want to support you, but ever since rob simpson left, you've been making continuously terrible decisions. da fuq.
On July 23 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote: considering most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans. .
Speak for yourself, I might give TI3 a watch but I couldnt care less about dota.
If only I would kill everyone that responses to a "most people are xxx" question with "well, i am not"
How about backing up random bullshit claims like "most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans" with some factual evidence instead?
I believe viewernumbers will provide you enough evidence. If not even that, nothing can prove that to you
Speaking as another SC2 fan who isn't a dota fan (though I'm sure it's a great game), how on earth can you figure that? How will you know if the viewers of one are the viewers of another by simply the numbers alone?
The fact of the matter is you have given zero evidence to support your claim.
for competent statisticians, it should be possible to some extent to explore the impact of TI3 on WCS viewership and vice versa.
It's very easy, we just need a poll in the OP of this thread.
Yea that is the way to go to make an unbiased statistic.
Biased in what way? Based on what forum this thread belongs to? Well of course, I'm just saying it'd be an easy thing to do and right now we have nothing.
Ideally there would be a poll on the front page of this website. (Yes, I'm aware that it will still be biased, but it'd be the best data we have on TL.)
Polls on the internet are worthless, period. They prove nothing. There is a reason that there are entired companies that preform polls to assure they are not bias. I hate it when people just throw a poll up in a thread and then cite that poll as evidence
On July 23 2013 06:43 rename wrote: As an equal fan of dota and sc2 - i could not give a damn.
In WCS there are 4 global season finals, 1 blizzcon gigantic world tournament, and 12 regional finals per year. If some of them are on the same time as international - then i guess i just maybe watch starcraft during TI3 downtime.
Probably will tune in for the biggest games - unless something equally big is going on at dota.
Its actually awesome, once i feel like i have watched too much dota i can watch starcraft and vice versa.
... starcraft players are just going to get bit less exposure - but its just few events out of so many this year. And anybody who thinks dota2 is going to lose above marginal amount of viewers is delusional.
I am kinda with this guy. As long as I catch the final matches for all 4 events, I'm not going to care that much.
On July 23 2013 06:02 Random_Guy09 wrote: [quote] Speak for yourself, I might give TI3 a watch but I couldnt care less about dota.
If only I would kill everyone that responses to a "most people are xxx" question with "well, i am not"
How about backing up random bullshit claims like "most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans" with some factual evidence instead?
I believe viewernumbers will provide you enough evidence. If not even that, nothing can prove that to you
Speaking as another SC2 fan who isn't a dota fan (though I'm sure it's a great game), how on earth can you figure that? How will you know if the viewers of one are the viewers of another by simply the numbers alone?
The fact of the matter is you have given zero evidence to support your claim.
for competent statisticians, it should be possible to some extent to explore the impact of TI3 on WCS viewership and vice versa.
It's very easy, we just need a poll in the OP of this thread.
Yea that is the way to go to make an unbiased statistic.
Biased in what way? Based on what forum this thread belongs to? Well of course, I'm just saying it'd be an easy thing to do and right now we have nothing.
Ideally there would be a poll on the front page of this website. (Yes, I'm aware that it will still be biased, but it'd be the best data we have on TL.)
Polls on the internet are worthless, period. They prove nothing. There is a reason that there are entired companies that preform polls to assure they are not bias. I hate it when people just throw a poll up in a thread and then cite that poll as evidence
Way to generalize, are you a statistician or do you just enjoy arguing over the internet?
My main point is that people are vastly overreacting in this thread. Lacking statistically data, I can only use my understanding of both games to infer that an overlap in spectators for the two games should not be significant.
On July 23 2013 06:44 Kazeyonoma wrote: sigh, why do they make use choose between dota2 and the sc2 scene. this isn't helping.
I'm sorry but i'll watch the OSL and TI3 since those are what interest me most, but eu and na are gonna get massive dips in their viewership competing against TI3... 2.6 million dollars on the line, and you want to throw your 100k tournament against it? yeah right. goddamnit blizzard, I want to support you, but ever since rob simpson left, you've been making continuously terrible decisions. da fuq.
WCS EU is historically the strongest of the bunch. WCS korea doesn't get its 100k viewers at the finals.
I hope blizzards announcement is something to the liking of "After having received over 250 emails from valve addresses only containing the text "hahahahah", we have decided to reschedule for the weekend after".
Sadly they'll just say "Too bad everyone, have fun explaining to your sponsors why your exposure was so low for the finals weekend. Blizzard Allstars coming soon".
If only I would kill everyone that responses to a "most people are xxx" question with "well, i am not"
How about backing up random bullshit claims like "most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans" with some factual evidence instead?
I believe viewernumbers will provide you enough evidence. If not even that, nothing can prove that to you
Speaking as another SC2 fan who isn't a dota fan (though I'm sure it's a great game), how on earth can you figure that? How will you know if the viewers of one are the viewers of another by simply the numbers alone?
The fact of the matter is you have given zero evidence to support your claim.
for competent statisticians, it should be possible to some extent to explore the impact of TI3 on WCS viewership and vice versa.
It's very easy, we just need a poll in the OP of this thread.
Yea that is the way to go to make an unbiased statistic.
Biased in what way? Based on what forum this thread belongs to? Well of course, I'm just saying it'd be an easy thing to do and right now we have nothing.
Ideally there would be a poll on the front page of this website. (Yes, I'm aware that it will still be biased, but it'd be the best data we have on TL.)
Polls on the internet are worthless, period. They prove nothing. There is a reason that there are entired companies that preform polls to assure they are not bias. I hate it when people just throw a poll up in a thread and then cite that poll as evidence
Way to generalize, are you a statistician or do you just enjoy arguing over the internet?
My main point is that people are vastly overreacting in this thread. Lacking statistically data, I can only use my understanding of both games to infer that an overlap in spectators for the two games should not be significant.
They could a bit, but TL is a pretty bad sample group, since the site supports both games. There are other people who watch SC2 and others who watch Dota 2 that do not overlap, that is for sure. I know the Giant Bomb community will be tuning in and they don't give a shit about SC2.
I think Blizzard's basically going to say that this is a logistical issue that was unfortunate but necessary.
How stupid. If they didn't know beforehand (haha), they were doing a bad job. If they were knowing it, why not include that in their announcement? They can't hope noone notices it...
On July 23 2013 06:20 MasterOfPuppets wrote: [quote]
How about backing up random bullshit claims like "most SC2 fans are also big Dota 2 fans" with some factual evidence instead?
I believe viewernumbers will provide you enough evidence. If not even that, nothing can prove that to you
Speaking as another SC2 fan who isn't a dota fan (though I'm sure it's a great game), how on earth can you figure that? How will you know if the viewers of one are the viewers of another by simply the numbers alone?
The fact of the matter is you have given zero evidence to support your claim.
for competent statisticians, it should be possible to some extent to explore the impact of TI3 on WCS viewership and vice versa.
It's very easy, we just need a poll in the OP of this thread.
Yea that is the way to go to make an unbiased statistic.
Biased in what way? Based on what forum this thread belongs to? Well of course, I'm just saying it'd be an easy thing to do and right now we have nothing.
Ideally there would be a poll on the front page of this website. (Yes, I'm aware that it will still be biased, but it'd be the best data we have on TL.)
Polls on the internet are worthless, period. They prove nothing. There is a reason that there are entired companies that preform polls to assure they are not bias. I hate it when people just throw a poll up in a thread and then cite that poll as evidence
Way to generalize, are you a statistician or do you just enjoy arguing over the internet?
My main point is that people are vastly overreacting in this thread. Lacking statistically data, I can only use my understanding of both games to infer that an overlap in spectators for the two games should not be significant.
They could a bit, but TL is a pretty bad sample group, since the site supports both games. There are other people who watch SC2 and others who watch Dota 2 that do not overlap, that is for sure. I know the Giant Bomb community will be tuning in and they don't give a shit about SC2.
There's also the fact that TL is a predominantly hardcore community, and as such any statistics derived solely from here can't possibly be extrapolated and generalized as being representative of the entire "esports" community.
On July 23 2013 06:53 tribulator wrote: I hope blizzards announcement is something to the liking of "After having received over 250 emails from valve addresses only containing the text "hahahahah", we have decided to reschedule for the weekend after".
Sadly they'll just say "Too bad everyone, have fun explaining to your sponsors why your exposure was so low for the finals weekend. Blizzard Allstars coming soon".
They could probably move WCS EU and AM, because afaik the finals will be at their studios so only resource booked are the employees. Also they could compress the next sesason for those regions so they could finish everything before blizzcon. IF the hotels and flights are not already booked for people doing the LAN.
WCS KR is not moveable tho - OSL finals probably will be done outside the studio - there are cable TV advertising deals in place, and korean organizers cant reschedule the next season due to timeslots planned for LoL, WoT and Dota2 at OGN/GomTV
On July 23 2013 06:27 Arnstein wrote: I actually think this will be fun. I will buy a shitload of food and just stay inside watching all games for 20+ hours.
And who cares about dota?
On July 23 2013 06:26 Plansix wrote:
On July 23 2013 06:24 Moltisanti wrote:
On July 23 2013 05:40 Dodgin wrote:
On July 23 2013 05:38 Moltisanti wrote: Whats TL3?
And who the fuck cares? This is a SC2 site, why would we care for a Casualgame tournament? Its not like MLG failed because it was on the same weekend as Evo...
WTF are you talking about. Team Liquid has a Dota 2 team in THE INTERNATIONAL! Did you wonder what all those stories were that were not about SC2 were?
Many people have excluded Dota news. I didn't even know TL had a Dota team before now.
I kinda do and my social life as well. The girlfriend will not approve of 20 hours of SC2 followed by the TI3. She would be totally into one, but both is asking for trouble.
Well, you should have thought about that before getting a girlfriend.
I think Blizzard's basically going to say that this is a logistical issue that was unfortunate but necessary.
How stupid. If they didn't know beforehand (haha), they were doing a bad job. If they were knowing it, why not include that in their announcement? They can't hope noone notices it...
Why put it the first annoucement when you can just respond to the people who care? There is a large section of the SC2 community that could give 2 shits about TI3.
I think Blizzard's basically going to say that this is a logistical issue that was unfortunate but necessary.
How stupid. If they didn't know beforehand (haha), they were doing a bad job. If they were knowing it, why not include that in their announcement? They can't hope noone notices it...
Why put it the first annoucement when you can just respond to the people who care? There is a large section of the SC2 community that could give 2 shits about TI3.
they should care about Dota. I'm gona tell you without Dota 2 and LoL(dota style game) starcraft wouldnt be as big as it is right now. and NO, I will not provide you proof of that( :D ), you just have to believe me
All 3 finals on 1 weekend is bad enough (audience will have fatigue at the end) but you are also polarizing your viewership. People will absolutely choose one or the other whereas if they had 2 different weekends to watch they'd go with both TIL3/WCS finals. Even if in some odd world blizzard said "We can win vs that 2+ million dollar super bowl event for a mega popular game with our seasonal regional finals" they will ONLY hurt themselves EVEN IF they "hurt" TIL3 more (I know they won't). It's bad competitively, it's bad selfishly, it's bad for the scene(s)... I know blizz folk follow me/read my tweets/posts and what not but I cannot possibly pretend I am not absolutely disgusted by this. We are supposed to be beyond the itzik phase and into the happy new world where we are getting better as a community/scene. Come the fuck on. EDIT: Worth mentioning not to long after this post I was contacted/had a conversation with a blizz employee that is pretty high up (just don't want to name drop) and we discussed this. Blizz is aware, things are complicated but they are working on solutions. I posted emotionally and while I did that because I fucking love this game and get really upset/sad when i think things are done poorly I need to remember I have a big platform to speak from. Basically, this isn't good. Blizz knows/cares and is working to communicate their thoughts and make things better moving forward. I will still be here and I have faith things can/will get better.
1- Dota viewers will not watch WCS, it's The International. 2- Very hard (if not impossible) to watch all the WCS games. 3- Less exposure for both games and all of the sponsors. 4- If twitch struggles, sc2 viewers will suffer more.
so sc2 ppl rlly watch dota?? i play alot of dota2 but i just cant watch it, i tried it but its rlly boring to me... cant think sc2 viewers would watch dota instead of sc2
I think Blizzard's basically going to say that this is a logistical issue that was unfortunate but necessary.
How stupid. If they didn't know beforehand (haha), they were doing a bad job. If they were knowing it, why not include that in their announcement? They can't hope noone notices it...
Why put it the first annoucement when you can just respond to the people who care? There is a large section of the SC2 community that could give 2 shits about TI3.
they should care about Dota. I'm gona tell you without Dota 2 and LoL(dota style game) starcraft wouldnt be as big as it is right now. and NO, I will not provide you proof of that( :D ), you just have to believe me
I don't believe you. Moba games are competition. Sooner this "do it for esports" shit dies the better off we are. You can enjoy multiple games just like you can enjoy multiple sports but this kumbaya esports trite is just tiresome.
I am mostly a DotA 2 player, but I've been following the SC2 scene ever since WoL. Even when I played less SC2 now compared to DotA 2, I still follow all the major SC2 events because it's still very interesting to watch it every now and then, and also just to show my support for e-sports in general. I really love e-sports, even if my main focus is mostly DotA 2 and SC2, I still love to watch some other games like CS:GO and I just got introduced to the fighting game community and fell in love with the competitive scene of UMvC3 and SSF4 because of EVO 2013. So, it was really nice when I get to watch all the awesome matches of different games without much overlaps.
But Blizzard, what are you thinking.. This is not how u make e-sports grow. It's kinda like they really want to play this childish game with this kind of schedule. They were the one who didn't want to give full support to DotA back then in Warcraft III. Now that they realized DotA 2 is freaking huge, they want to try to compete for viewerships? Didn't they know that it will only make them look bad in the end when they lose viewers due to this? I seriously think that there's nothing for Blizzard to gain for such scheduling, so I don't see any other reasons as to why they would want to stick with the dates.
Why are you killing e-sports blizzard? Why... I really wanna watch both but if Blizzard still sticks to their plan I guess I have to forego WCS and just focus on TI3, as that's like a big wrap to the DotA 2 scene for the year, been waiting it for like ages. And the games are pretty long, and much more intense when it gets to the later stages of the playoffs, so might not have time to switch around to WCS. Not to mention, twitch would definitely get overloaded with this. At least I could watch the DotA 2 matches from inside the game client itself.
Hopefully twitch would do something about it at the very least..
sucks for Twitch. i hope Gunrun and the team is planning ahead to scale for all this. As for the back to back EU and AM finals, i'll be out of town so i'll have the luxury of reading about it on Liquipedia from my phone (can't afford the bandwidth to stream it all to my phone lol).
I think Blizzard's basically going to say that this is a logistical issue that was unfortunate but necessary.
How stupid. If they didn't know beforehand (haha), they were doing a bad job. If they were knowing it, why not include that in their announcement? They can't hope noone notices it...
Why put it the first annoucement when you can just respond to the people who care? There is a large section of the SC2 community that could give 2 shits about TI3.
they should care about Dota. I'm gona tell you without Dota 2 and LoL(dota style game) starcraft wouldnt be as big as it is right now. and NO, I will not provide you proof of that( :D ), you just have to believe me
I don't believe you. Moba games are competition. Sooner this "do it for esports" shit dies the better off we are. You can enjoy multiple games just like you can enjoy multiple sports but this kumbaya esports trite is just tiresome.
It sounds incredibly immature and sappy to me, it's not realistic either. It's not even worth saying "WATCH EVERYTHING FOR ESPORTS." People wont do that and people dont want to do that, people have preferences, that is OK. Watch what you want, stop trying to pressure people into watching shit they don't like. Dota 2 will smash SC 2 most likely in terms of numbers and LoL will smash both partly because blizzard is idiotic, and if they REALLY wanted to, they could change to a much better date. But in the end, the WCS isn't a big enough of a priority to schedule intelligently it seems, unless they have some super huge gigantic thing hamstringing them and preventing them from scheduling better. To that I say, "too bad, hope it doesnt hurt blizzard and the fans or games too much."
On July 23 2013 07:11 Killmouse wrote: so sc2 ppl rlly watch dota?? i play alot of dota2 but i just cant watch it, i tried it but its rlly boring to me... cant think sc2 viewers would watch dota instead of sc2
TI3 is a $2.6mil tournament and the biggest in e-sports, with a tournament that big there is always going to be some overlap. It's like hosting wimbledon, rolland Garros and US open at the same time AND during the football world cup. It's a complete cluster fuck.
Several other people said it in this thread but I want to reiterate it a bit. BlizzCon takes place in early November and it is coming up quick. There really isn't a whole lot of time left for Blizzard. They need a Season 2 regional finals and then the Season 2 finals. After that, they need to start up season 3 and its respective regional finals and the finals. After that, they need to do the BlizzCon Finals. Not to mention other SC2 events like MLG Columbus and ASUS ROG Summer 2013. It really doesn't look like there is a whole lot of time left for Blizzard and the time they scheduled for Season 2 regional finals just happened to coincide with TI3. I watch both Dota2 and SC2 and to be honest I'm not happy with this either. But I can see why Blizzard did it. I am pretty sure that they didn't do this on purpose. As if they can think the regional finals (and they aren't even the seasonal finals) that happen 3 times a year can compete with TI3 that happens once a year lol.
On July 23 2013 07:28 Bagration wrote: Blizzard, your stupidity is showing. So not only do you want to have the regions cannibalize viewership, but you also want to challenge TI3? Lol
And how much longer can they realistically delay it? The finals are in august and after that theres still an entire 3rd season to run before blizzcon in november. You also have to add in that a delay might have meant more than 1 week because the facility they want may not be available the next week.
They had like 6 months advance notice of when ti3 was going to be. That should be enough time to figure out a date that doesn't conflict with one of the biggest esports events of the year.
On July 23 2013 07:14 fenrysk wrote: sucks for Twitch. i hope Gunrun and the team is planning ahead to scale for all this. As for the back to back EU and AM finals, i'll be out of town so i'll have the luxury of reading about it on Liquipedia from my phone (can't afford the bandwidth to stream it all to my phone lol).
Gunrun is in vacation, so prepare for twitch to literally blow up. Literally.
On July 23 2013 07:31 dcsoda wrote: Don't care one lick about Dota so this doesn't really affect me. People can just have two tabs open I'm not sure why this is getting such crap.
I play and watch Dota 2 and I think the same thing.
If you look at when the most logical time to put the tournament at in terms of the scheduling of WCS, that weekend would be the time to do it, not to mention that in order to create the adequate duration for the next season you would need it to be on time. Its not a company's job to manage other events, they work on their own schedule.
You can watch one or the other or just watch both, but theres no need to circle jerk this out of proportion.
On July 23 2013 07:28 Bagration wrote: Blizzard, your stupidity is showing. So not only do you want to have the regions cannibalize viewership, but you also want to challenge TI3? Lol
And how much longer can they realistically delay it? The finals are in august and after that theres still an entire 3rd season to run before blizzcon in november. You also have to add in that a delay might have meant more than 1 week because the facility they want may not be available the next week.
In retrospect Blizzard should have just started the first year of WCS with just 2 seasons, it would have given the guys at ESL, MLG, NASL and OGN a lot more breathing space.
edit: To answer on your point, there is not much room for Blizzard now and this will come back to bite them in the ass.
This really wouldn't be a problem if Blizzard provided a different viewing avenue other than Twich, considering what happens during large enough LoL events, I don't have high hopes for Twitch during that weekend. At least Valve provided an alternative option on viewing The International, I don't know how we're going to watch SC2 (YT is always an option though).
On July 23 2013 07:23 sns3rsam wrote: Several other people said it in this thread but I want to reiterate it a bit. BlizzCon takes place in early November and it is coming up quick. There really isn't a whole lot of time left for Blizzard. They need a Season 2 regional finals and then the Season 2 finals. After that, they need to start up season 3 and its respective regional finals and the finals. After that, they need to do the BlizzCon Finals. Not to mention other SC2 events like MLG Columbus and ASUS ROG Summer 2013. It really doesn't look like there is a whole lot of time left for Blizzard and the time they scheduled for Season 2 regional finals just happened to coincide with TI3. I watch both Dota2 and SC2 and to be honest I'm not happy with this either. But I can see why Blizzard did it. I am pretty sure that they didn't do this on purpose. As if they can think the regional finals (and they aren't even the seasonal finals) that happen 3 times a year can compete with TI3 that happens once a year lol.
I think you are right.people in this thread easily forget that sc2 is the esport with the highest number of tournaments out of any esports.Lol only has lcs.Dota may have some more tournaments but due to the high ammount of sc2 tournies it is litterally impossible not to collide with other big esport names.Sooner or later people will just have to get used to it.Twitch lagging is the only major issue.
On July 23 2013 07:28 Bagration wrote: Blizzard, your stupidity is showing. So not only do you want to have the regions cannibalize viewership, but you also want to challenge TI3? Lol
And how much longer can they realistically delay it? The finals are in august and after that theres still an entire 3rd season to run before blizzcon in november. You also have to add in that a delay might have meant more than 1 week because the facility they want may not be available the next week.
There's no way I can stay up to watch the whole weekend. That means Ill be missing some of the action I would never normally have missed. Also, although I personally won't watch it... This is scheduled at the same time as the biggest tournament there will be this year (outside of league finals, maybe).
I don't think there could be a decent explanation for this...
On July 23 2013 07:28 Bagration wrote: Blizzard, your stupidity is showing. So not only do you want to have the regions cannibalize viewership, but you also want to challenge TI3? Lol
And how much longer can they realistically delay it? The finals are in august and after that theres still an entire 3rd season to run before blizzcon in november. You also have to add in that a delay might have meant more than 1 week because the facility they want may not be available the next week.
Well if Blizzard were on top of things this wouldn't be an issue now would it...
All 3 finals on 1 weekend is bad enough (audience will have fatigue at the end) but you are also polarizing your viewership. People will absolutely choose one or the other whereas if they had 2 different weekends to watch they'd go with both TIL3/WCS finals. Even if in some odd world blizzard said "We can win vs that 2+ million dollar super bowl event for a mega popular game with our seasonal regional finals" they will ONLY hurt themselves EVEN IF they "hurt" TIL3 more (I know they won't). It's bad competitively, it's bad selfishly, it's bad for the scene(s)... I know blizz folk follow me/read my tweets/posts and what not but I cannot possibly pretend I am not absolutely disgusted by this. We are supposed to be beyond the itzik phase and into the happy new world where we are getting better as a community/scene. Come the fuck on. EDIT: Worth mentioning not to long after this post I was contacted/had a conversation with a blizz employee that is pretty high up (just don't want to name drop) and we discussed this. Blizz is aware, things are complicated but they are working on solutions. I posted emotionally and while I did that because I fucking love this game and get really upset/sad when i think things are done poorly I need to remember I have a big platform to speak from. Basically, this isn't good. Blizz knows/cares and is working to communicate their thoughts and make things better moving forward. I will still be here and I have faith things can/will get better.
interesting.
doubt bliz will change it though, twitch will die on that weekend (the stream lags during some minor tourney finals...) and it will be so bad for us who wont be able to watch dota2 in game
On July 23 2013 04:39 Kristiyan wrote: It's the only reasonable decision Blizzard could make because I can't see the starcraft people going back if they watched TI3... Especially bad if the Koreans see it.
On July 23 2013 04:39 Kristiyan wrote: It's the only reasonable decision Blizzard could make because I can't see the starcraft people going back if they watched TI3... Especially bad if the Koreans see it.
Koreans prefer LoL over Dota2 don't they?
You couldn't really play Dota 2 in korea very easily until a month or two ago.
On July 23 2013 04:39 Kristiyan wrote: It's the only reasonable decision Blizzard could make because I can't see the starcraft people going back if they watched TI3... Especially bad if the Koreans see it.
Except I watch both Dota and SC2. Sucks that I have to miss one. Goddamnit Blizz.
I'll probably end up watching TI3 rather than WCS; not because I prefer dota (i actually prefer sc2) but because you can watch dota through the client and twitch will be dying.
Huge blunder, I can't believe Blizzard actually did not consider the possibility of an overlap, and even if they did, simply allowed it. StarCraft will take the worst hit of all, because I don't see it competing with The International at all.
On July 23 2013 07:44 KnadRa wrote: People need to accept that tournaments are going to start overlapping.
If it was any other dota2 event i would agree. But the largest dota 2 tournement with a 2.6 million pricepool? Every other weekend of the year and it would have been fine really. They are also making it impossible for the viewer to follow their own tournement in different regions due to the short time span between the finals. If you are trying to make a dick waving contest, you should really be sure your´s is the biggest before going into it
I'm sorry but is this Dota tournament not going to have any downtime? Nothing between games? You can't have two windows open? It's not even the S2 grand finals or whatever it's just the region ones. I don't get this amount of negative reaction.
This is stupid, having all three on the same weekend is a dumb idea but trying to compete with ti3 a once a year super tournament makes it even dumber. Whoever came up with this idea needs to be replaced because this isn't the way to grow sc2/esports.
I really can't figure out the logic that led whoever made this scheduling decision into thinking it was a good idea. Unless they were somehow forced to not only host all three of their regional finals on the same weekend, but also have that weekend be the same as one of the most hyped tournaments of the year in any game, it's just a bad business decision. Given the two tournaments involved, it's way more likely to be WCS coming out on the losing end of the viewership competition. Even if you had no idea about the Dota2 scene (like myself), 5 minutes of research is enough to get the picture.
If they were forced by some unfortunate circumstances, I would love to know what they are. Otherwise, it's just another nail in the coffin for WCS.
Everyone makes it sound like they just came up with this date today. Chances are this was a date they have had booked way before Valve announced their plans for TI3.
On July 23 2013 08:06 CuSToM wrote: Everyone makes it sound like they just came up with this date today. Chances are this was a date they have had booked way before Valve announced their plans for TI3.
TI3 date has been known for months now. Considering a WCS season is only 2-3 months... yeah they could've tried to find a better date. Hell, having it during the week is probably better than colliding with TI3.
On July 23 2013 08:06 CuSToM wrote: Everyone makes it sound like they just came up with this date today. Chances are this was a date they have had booked way before Valve announced their plans for TI3.
I will be watching The International, no doubt. I love SC2 and its my favorite game but The International is fantastic, must watch stuff. SC2 stuff is only regions...
This is a really poor decision. I will be watching TI3, partly since I had already made plans to do so. I'm not going to try and watch them both at the same time. :\
On July 23 2013 08:06 CuSToM wrote: Everyone makes it sound like they just came up with this date today. Chances are this was a date they have had booked way before Valve announced their plans for TI3.
TI3 date has been known for months now. Considering a WCS season is only 2-3 months... yeah they could've tried to find a better date. Hell, having it during the week is probably better than colliding with TI3.
Yea, I doubt that's the case, but they'll probably be using that excuse as damage control.
Incontrol posted on reddit that Blizzard is currently working on a solution. But to put it simply, they should have noticed the problem before publicize the date from the first place. To make such crucial mistake means that their esport department clearly isnt doing their job right. I really hope somebody gona take a blame for this :|
On July 23 2013 08:21 NB wrote: Incontrol posted on reddit that Blizzard is currently working on a solution. But to put it simply, they should have noticed the problem before publicize the date from the first place. To make such crucial mistake means that their esport department clearly isnt doing their job right. I really hope somebody gona take a blame for this :|
On July 23 2013 08:21 NB wrote: Incontrol posted on reddit that Blizzard is currently working on a solution. But to put it simply, they should have noticed the problem before publicize the date from the first place. To make such crucial mistake means that their esport department clearly isnt doing their job right. I really hope somebody gona take a blame for this :|
EDIT: Worth mentioning not to long after this post I was contacted/had a conversation with a blizz employee that is pretty high up (just don't want to name drop) and we discussed this. Blizz is aware, things are complicated but they are working on solutions. I posted emotionally and while I did that because I fucking love this game and get really upset/sad when i think things are done poorly I need to remember I have a big platform to speak from. Basically, this isn't good. Blizz knows/cares and is working to communicate their thoughts and make things better moving forward. I will still be here and I have faith things can/will get better.
This is bad for the viewers, viewer count, overall hype, interest in the tournaments. I guess this is a decision taken by people who don' know what it means to watch sc2 hours on end. You just segment your viewers for no good reason. Hey, you know what those sc2 fans would like? What? To have all 3 Regional Season Finals in ONE WEEKEND. Would that be cool? Wow what a great idea, all synced up and tidy! Blizzard has to consult with e-sports people with a brain before screwing themselves and the viewers over. I'm not even going to get into the TI3 overlap. Just too silly.
Not surprised Blizzard isn't backing down, they have pretty inflated self worth in esports and as a company generally think they can do no wrong and are right in all situations. Oh well, this isn't going to hurt TI3 viewership at all but SC2 is going to miss out on a metric ton of potential views by being stupid.
That response by Blizzard was completely what I expected! Hope this isn't as bad as people think it will be... My first impression was that this timing will completely destroy the viewership for this event, but maybe im being overdramatic. After all, the International 2013 will be held from 7th of August to 11th, where the WCS events will be from 5th to 8th. So the finals of WCS will overlap with the early stages of the playoff in The International. We're not talking about finals being played on the same time, but a small overlap at most!
That statement does not address the idiotic idea to place all season finals in a single weekend. Executives that don't know what they are talking about. And he says there are a lot of e-sports events etc etc. OMFG, we know that, you only had to avoid one of them, TI3, Valve's yearly event
Well, I dont think it will be so bad, if it were a big League of Legends tournament, then I think people will have to worry a lot more. That game is so big compared to SC2 that I cant imagine SC2 being the main event for anything they run at the same time as LoL.
On July 23 2013 08:45 tshi wrote: Well, I dont think it will be so bad, if it were a big League of Legends tournament, then I think people will have to worry a lot more. That game is so big compared to SC2 that I cant imagine SC2 being the main event for anything they run at the same time as LoL.
The international viewer counts rivals any League events viewers for one tournament, Sc2 has just as much to lose in this situation because 90% of viewers will pick TI3 over Sc2 any day.
On July 23 2013 08:45 tshi wrote: Well, I dont think it will be so bad, if it were a big League of Legends tournament, then I think people will have to worry a lot more. That game is so big compared to SC2 that I cant imagine SC2 being the main event for anything they run at the same time as LoL.
The International 3 will grab more viewers than anything League has to offer, at least until they do their World Finals.
Considering they wanted to hit Gamescom for the global finals, you'd think they'd plan ahead and try to, you know, avoid any major conflicts by scheduling appropriately. It's pretty obvious at this point that they didn't do that.
On July 23 2013 08:45 tshi wrote: Well, I dont think it will be so bad, if it were a big League of Legends tournament, then I think people will have to worry a lot more. That game is so big compared to SC2 that I cant imagine SC2 being the main event for anything they run at the same time as LoL.
If it was LCS instead of TI3 there wouldn't be anger at all towards Blizzard cause SC2 fans don't care about LoL. But a lot of SC2 fans are also Dota 2 fans which is why there is conflict. With it instead being TI3 WCS loses a hefty amount of viewers. What Blizzard also doesnt know is that the TI3 group stages are happening the week before the playoffs which alot of people will be watching instead of WCS as well.
On July 23 2013 08:45 tshi wrote: Well, I dont think it will be so bad, if it were a big League of Legends tournament, then I think people will have to worry a lot more. That game is so big compared to SC2 that I cant imagine SC2 being the main event for anything they run at the same time as LoL.
The international viewer counts rivals any League events viewers for one tournament, Sc2 has just as much to lose in this situation because 90% of viewers will pick TI3 over Sc2 any day.
And this year they're having more coverage for TI3 with more languages as broadcasters this year instead of just english and russian like last year. TI3 is just a smart marketing tool for Dota 2 and with half of the prize pool being raised by just dota 2 fans it brings alot more hype to the table and media. WCS will still be overshadowed even though its overlapping both part of the group stages and the first 2 days of the playoffs. Poor planning from Blizzard just like WCS season 1. Have fun dealing with the PR nightmare from team sponsors wondering about their ROI and why its shit Blizzard.
On July 23 2013 08:48 dcsoda wrote: I'm still watching WCS and so will plenty of people. This will end up being a non issue because browsers can have more than one window open.
lol so they arent backing down. Yep, all aboard the Valve train.... expecting ghost town over SC vile soon. Yeah its a bad business decision if they would have backed down but its a price they gota pay making such terrible mistake. By not backing down, not only they ruined their reputation as a game developer, they also ruining their reputation in making business decision. We all know what WCS final last year or ANY of the ESL event are like. Even though they are not borderline horrible, they are no where close to The International in term of production quality. Thats not even counting the prestigious price pool and a huge storyline carried over from last year TI2. Meanwhile viewers still are confused with the regional format system of WCS. No way in hell this gona end pretty for blizzard.
This is sad as a long time SC2 fan slowly transitioning to Dota2 over the last 6 months or so, having to choose between the two is the last thing i need...
On July 23 2013 08:51 NB wrote: lol so they arent backing down. Yep, all aboard the Valve train.... expecting ghost town over SC vile soon. Yeah its a bad business decision if they would have backed down but its a price they gota pay making such terrible mistake. By not backing down, not only they ruined their reputation as a game developer, they also ruining their reputation in making business decision. We all know what WCS final last year or ANY of the ESL event are like. Even though they are not borderline horrible, they are no where close to The International in term of production quality. Thats not even counting the prestigious price pool and a huge storyline carried over from last year TI2. Meanwhile viewers still are confused with the regional format system of WCS. No way in hell this gona end pretty for blizzard.
I am devastated by this decission. This is basically a éclat of a dramatic scale and i feel not only betrayed by Blizzard, a company i supported since sc and wc2, but real anger towards them.
They had ONE JOB, noone says something about LCS, becouse their things are on a weekly bases, but Ti3 is ONLY ONCE A YEAR.
I can not express my deeply felt resentment enough in any language known to me and can not do more than to shake my head in utter disbelief.
On July 23 2013 08:55 Crytash wrote: They had ONE JOB, noone says something about LCS, becouse their things are on a weekly bases, but Ti3 is ONLY ONCE A YEAR.
On July 23 2013 08:51 NB wrote: lol so they arent backing down. Yep, all aboard the Valve train.... expecting ghost town over SC vile soon. Yeah its a bad business decision if they would have backed down but its a price they gota pay making such terrible mistake. By not backing down, not only they ruined their reputation as a game developer, they also ruining their reputation in making business decision. We all know what WCS final last year or ANY of the ESL event are like. Even though they are not borderline horrible, they are no where close to The International in term of production quality. Thats not even counting the prestigious price pool and a huge storyline carried over from last year TI2. Meanwhile viewers still are confused with the regional format system of WCS. No way in hell this gona end pretty for blizzard.
Kim Phan @kimaphan 1m @TheMaelk @Slasher That doesn't give adequate time to book travel arrangements for the players who advance to the season finals.
it aint about ego trippin or backing down.Give the people a break.They do everything they can for the sc2 scene to get a good experience.Btw your browser has more than 1 window.I wonder how you watched when all of the other sc2 events overlapped with lol/dota 2 events.The only reason why you guys are complaining its because up until now ti3/lol worlds and wcs finals never overlapped.And I am guessing how stretched out blizzard is with all the financial part this is the best they could do
On July 23 2013 08:55 Crytash wrote: I am devastated by this decission. This is basically a éclat of a dramatic scale and i feel not only betrayed by Blizzard, a company i supported since sc and wc2, but real anger towards them.
They had ONE JOB, noone says something about LCS, becouse their things are on a weekly bases, but Ti3 is ONLY ONCE A YEAR.
I can not express my deeply felt resentment enough in any language known to me and can not do more than to shake my head in utter disbelief.
The bigger damage done by this is it brings to light how glaringly obvious it is that Blizzard is out of touch with the real world and esports and it shows their remaining fan base that they are not competent enough to foster and grow their game. Anyone who had any concerns over whether or not Blizzard was slowly realizing what they needed to do to make Sc2 a top tier esport again was just shown that they simply lack the ability to make the smart decisions necessary to keep the scene alive and growing.
On July 23 2013 08:58 Dexington wrote: Blizzard killing their own game. Dota 2 TI3 viewership will absolutely crush SC2 sadly, which could serve to drive sponsors out of the scene.
Hell, I think China's Dota 2 viewership will beat the entirety of SC2
This would have happened no matter when WCS happened, what is your point? It's not even the overall S2 finals.
On July 23 2013 04:41 SCST wrote: Twitch will be unwatchable for this. Mark my words.
Twitch is already unwatchable for me. I don't even know how many awesome recent events I've had to turn off because the stream lags, especially during battles.
I only now just realize that Twitch is the reason I've been losing interesting SC2 as a spectator sport.
On July 23 2013 08:58 Dexington wrote: Blizzard killing their own game. Dota 2 TI3 viewership will absolutely crush SC2 sadly, which could serve to drive sponsors out of the scene.
Hell, I think China's Dota 2 viewership will beat the entirety of SC2
except you are forgetting the millions who follow sc2 and any esport in korea.
On July 23 2013 08:58 theking1 wrote: They do everything they can for the sc2 scene to get a good experience.
They really don't. Especially not with their resources taken into consideration. Just like their game development is suffering from a rigorous structure and bureaucracy - so is their 'esports division'.
On July 23 2013 08:58 Dexington wrote: Blizzard killing their own game. Dota 2 TI3 viewership will absolutely crush SC2 sadly, which could serve to drive sponsors out of the scene.
Hell, I think China's Dota 2 viewership will beat the entirety of SC2
except you are forgetting the millions who follow sc2 and any esport in korea.
On July 23 2013 08:51 Tunga wrote: The most ironic thing here is Riot/League organizers have done a better job avoiding schedule conflicts with TI3 than Blizzard.
sadly true, because they acknowledge (though not publicly of course) Dota2 as a legitimate competition.
On July 23 2013 08:58 Dexington wrote: Blizzard killing their own game. Dota 2 TI3 viewership will absolutely crush SC2 sadly, which could serve to drive sponsors out of the scene.
Hell, I think China's Dota 2 viewership will beat the entirety of SC2
except you are forgetting the millions who follow sc2 and any esport in korea.
You might be slightly out of touch if you think that SC2 Regionals will outdraw The International 3...actually, very much so out of touch...
On July 23 2013 08:58 Dexington wrote: Blizzard killing their own game. Dota 2 TI3 viewership will absolutely crush SC2 sadly, which could serve to drive sponsors out of the scene.
Hell, I think China's Dota 2 viewership will beat the entirety of SC2
This would have happened no matter when WCS happened, what is your point? It's not even the overall S2 finals.
My point is that directly competing with TI3, they are providing a valid comparison for any company looking to invest in eSports.
On July 23 2013 08:55 Crytash wrote: They had ONE JOB, noone says something about LCS, becouse their things are on a weekly bases, but Ti3 is ONLY ONCE A YEAR.
Actually, LCS scheduled around TI3.
You twist the knife in the wound, you know that, right?
On July 23 2013 09:06 Hellbat wrote: I'm pretty much done with SC2 myself, and this is a good final nail in the coffin to allow me to transition to DOTA2 a happy man.
Heh, this was my exact same reaction, was torn on which game to focus on but Blizzard made that decision for me I guess.
On July 23 2013 09:06 Hellbat wrote: I'm pretty much done with SC2 myself, and this is a good final nail in the coffin to allow me to transition to DOTA2 a happy man.
I'm just about to call it quits and focus my energy on poker, only thing that's stopping me is im in the US so the sites kinda suck.
On July 23 2013 09:06 Hellbat wrote: I'm pretty much done with SC2 myself, and this is a good final nail in the coffin to allow me to transition to DOTA2 a happy man.
I'm just about to call it quits and focus my energy on poker, only thing that's stopping me is im in the US so the sites kinda suck.
So disappointed with blizzard.
do they still ban poker in the usa after that scandal?just curious.also want to freshen up on my pro poker scene a bit
On July 23 2013 09:06 Hellbat wrote: I'm pretty much done with SC2 myself, and this is a good final nail in the coffin to allow me to transition to DOTA2 a happy man.
Heh, this was my exact same reaction, was torn on which game to focus on but Blizzard made that decision for me I guess.
This kind of response does t make sense.
First, you could just watch two streams at once or go 50/50 or whatever variant you want.
Next you could watch one game in between breaks.
Second you seem awfully convinced you can only like one game, and your decision on what to watch means fuck the other in its entirety.
On July 23 2013 09:06 Hellbat wrote: I'm pretty much done with SC2 myself, and this is a good final nail in the coffin to allow me to transition to DOTA2 a happy man.
Heh, this was my exact same reaction, was torn on which game to focus on but Blizzard made that decision for me I guess.
This kind of response does t make sense.
First, you could just watch two streams at once or go 50/50 or whatever variant you want.
Next you could watch one game in between breaks.
Second you seem awfully convinced you can only like one game, and your decision on what to watch mea a fuck the other in its entirety.
My decision is based on Blizzards constant stupid decisions and what it means for the future of Sc2 which relies on Blizzard making good decisions instead of bad ones. If I am going to focus time and energy on playing in and investing in a game I want a guarantee that it will be sustainable in the future and with Blizzard making every decision the worst possible way that becomes less and less likely every month.
I also refuse to support a company that makes decisions this stupid and actively harms the esports community in the process.
Im not kidding myself, even as a long time bw and sc2 spectator who recently got into dota theres no chance Im missing the TI, especially since its going to be my first one. Tbh I don't see a real dilemma or a conflict, only way for someone to pick WCS over TI3 is not having any interest whatsoever in Dota.
Pretty much every acquaintance of mine having a general interest in esports is going to watch TI3 even though a lot of them generally don't even give a flying fuck about dota. Did they really compare that shit with some random esport crap event happening every weekend ?
On July 23 2013 09:06 Hellbat wrote: I'm pretty much done with SC2 myself, and this is a good final nail in the coffin to allow me to transition to DOTA2 a happy man.
Lmao I haven't really followed SC2 in like a year and a half but this is hilarious, Blizzard is beyond boneheaded this is just laughable. They are going to get buried under the the viewership of the international, I'll be enjoying it as well. Been waiting for months for this event won't miss it.
i actually didn't think blizzard could be this mong, even riot scheduled around TI3... and that says something given they generally don't actually care about any scene other than there own.
For the people defending blizzard, ask yourself how it makes sense to have all 3 qualifiers on the same weekend. If you're only a SC2 fan that's the main issue here. People try to schedule their lives and sleep schedule around certain matches, but having them in the same weekend back to back is just expecting your viewers not to have lives or enjoy sleep at all. So not only is it split between viewers in different games, it's split between viewers and their tolerance.
I see no answer other than Blizzard just planned poorly and did their best to cram it all in 3 weekends.
On July 23 2013 09:17 Tunga wrote: For the people defending blizzard, ask yourself how it makes sense to have all 3 qualifiers on the same weekend. If you're only a SC2 fan that's the main issue here. People try to schedule their lives and sleep schedule around certain matches, but having them in the same weekend back to back is just expecting your viewers not to have lives or enjoy sleep at all. So not only is it split between viewers in different games, it's split between viewers and their tolerance.
I see no answer other than Blizzard just planned poorly and did their best to cram it all in 3 weekends.
I watch what I can live and then watch the VODs of the other stuff if I can. Like I always have.
Well. It not like we are all going to watch all the matches in both TI3 and WCS. I will just be watching teams and players I am cheering for. I must say this is pretty bad for the development for SC2 since most people will be watching on DotaTV.
On July 23 2013 09:06 Hellbat wrote: I'm pretty much done with SC2 myself, and this is a good final nail in the coffin to allow me to transition to DOTA2 a happy man.
Heh, this was my exact same reaction, was torn on which game to focus on but Blizzard made that decision for me I guess.
This kind of response does t make sense.
First, you could just watch two streams at once or go 50/50 or whatever variant you want.
Next you could watch one game in between breaks.
Second you seem awfully convinced you can only like one game, and your decision on what to watch mea a fuck the other in its entirety.
My decision is based on Blizzards constant stupid decisions and what it means for the future of Sc2 which relies on Blizzard making good decisions instead of bad ones. If I am going to focus time and energy on playing in and investing in a game I want a guarantee that it will be sustainable in the future and with Blizzard making every decision the worst possible way that becomes less and less likely every month.
I also refuse to support a company that makes decisions this stupid and actively harms the esports community in the process.
Not only that, just look at how well valve has treated DOTA2. They honestly went above my expectations when they made the game. High quality heroes / interactions with other ones / LAN mode / spectator cilent (so even if twitch crashes during this weekend all the dota2 guys can still watch their game while if your watching WCS you'll have to wait until twitch comes back onlive). The compendium is also great. Imagine how awesome that would be in SC2? It allows the viewer to participate in a tournament much more than just watching it via a computer screen or tweeting at someone which player you think will advance. Valve has really set the esports bar high and blizzard can't even reach it
On July 23 2013 09:17 Tunga wrote: For the people defending blizzard, ask yourself how it makes sense to have all 3 qualifiers on the same weekend. If you're only a SC2 fan that's the main issue here. People try to schedule their lives and sleep schedule around certain matches, but having them in the same weekend back to back is just expecting your viewers not to have lives or enjoy sleep at all. So not only is it split between viewers in different games, it's split between viewers and their tolerance.
I see no answer other than Blizzard just planned poorly and did their best to cram it all in 3 weekends.
I watch what I can live and then watch the VODs of the other stuff if I can. Like I always have.
Yeah, I don't have time for all those games. I'll catch up if necessary.
On July 23 2013 09:17 Tunga wrote: For the people defending blizzard, ask yourself how it makes sense to have all 3 qualifiers on the same weekend. If you're only a SC2 fan that's the main issue here. People try to schedule their lives and sleep schedule around certain matches, but having them in the same weekend back to back is just expecting your viewers not to have lives or enjoy sleep at all. So not only is it split between viewers in different games, it's split between viewers and their tolerance.
I see no answer other than Blizzard just planned poorly and did their best to cram it all in 3 weekends.
Even if you don't give a damn about Dota, putting it on the same weekend as TI3 means that their stream will suck hardcore for the whole weekend. Dota has some sort of way to circumvent that problem with DotaTV but SC2 is going to suffer heavily from technical problems.
riot scheduled around ti3 because lol and dota are direct competitors and do not want to be humiliated by dota2.They always want to have the"we are more succesfull than dota2 mantra on their shoulders.".Even a regional lcs being surpassed by ti3 would mean a big blow to the lol "we always have more viewers on twitch no matter what" propaganda machine.Riot would lose a lot more money on the long run if they would be surpassed by dota2 than blizzard.This and the fact that dota is miles ahead of lol in terms of fan involvement and fans supporting the scene.Valve is doing a good job.Hopefully blizzard will do the same
On July 23 2013 08:43 Esoterikk wrote: Not surprised Blizzard isn't backing down, they have pretty inflated self worth in esports and as a company generally think they can do no wrong and are right in all situations. Oh well, this isn't going to hurt TI3 viewership at all but SC2 is going to miss out on a metric ton of potential views by being stupid.
They hired and supported Jay Wilson dismantling Diablo 3 so horribly that the console ports will actually be better versions of the game. This isn't surprising, unfortunately. Blizzard doesn't have the same talent it did in 1998. This also makes blizzard look a bit petulant and childish. If they REALLY wanted to make this happen at a different time they could, or perhaps they planned it that poorly?
I'm actually more pissed off about the fact that WCS KR is done with their semis on August 1st while AM and EU don't even start their fucking RO16 until August 5th. What the fuck? So the WCS KR players get well over a week to sit around and prepare for finals, watch all their potential opponents games thoroughly?
I thought the whole point of WCS was to even the playing field for everyone, not suck Korea's dick even harder. What gives?
If they continue this stupid tournament next year, they really, really, REALLY fucking need to enforce everyone playing the same format, or else what is the FUCKING point?
On July 23 2013 09:13 Zealously wrote: I'll react properly when I stop laughing in a few weeks
How can you laugh? I am in tears now, becouse this is so depressing. How can Blizzard do things like this?
I am filled with sadness and anger that i can not fucking sleep. This is one of the worst moments in my personal eSports/gaming life and that includes leaving WoW, stop playing Diablo 2/Wc3/Wc2 and closing the german Dota 1 wiki, where i was the head admin...
At least there isn't any LoL for it to go against... until the grand finals at Gamescom which will be going against the European LCS finals at Gamescom.
On July 23 2013 09:13 Zealously wrote: I'll react properly when I stop laughing in a few weeks
How can you laugh? I am in tears now, becouse this is so depressing. How can Blizzard do things like this?
I am filled with sadness and anger that i can not fucking sleep. This is one of the worst moments in my personal eSports/gaming life and that includes leaving WoW, stop playing Diablo 2/Wc3/Wc2 and closing the german Dota 1 wiki, where i was the head admin...
On July 23 2013 09:13 Zealously wrote: I'll react properly when I stop laughing in a few weeks
How can you laugh? I am in tears now, becouse this is so depressing. How can Blizzard do things like this?
I am filled with sadness and anger that i can not fucking sleep. This is one of the worst moments in my personal eSports/gaming life and that includes leaving WoW, stop playing Diablo 2/Wc3/Wc2 and closing the german Dota 1 wiki, where i was the head admin...
I don't even know what Blizzard is thinking...
Well that's because you are overreacting.
Stop picking on the guy that's crying his heart out.
On July 23 2013 09:25 tribulator wrote: At least there isn't any LoL for it to go against... until the grand finals at Gamescom which will be going against the European LCS finals at Gamescom.
Hooray WCS!
It's actually funny that people are also forgetting a few things because simply scheduling at the same time as TI3 is stupid enough.
1) They also scheduled all 3 finals at the same time making it impossible for anyone to watch all three unless they forgo sleep. 2) Riot also has an event at gamescon and it will be a complete and utter mess of an event for trying to get a hotel/tickets/room/being at an already packed venue 3) Riot even had the forsight to not schedule at the same time as TI3 despite being at gamescon
On July 23 2013 09:13 Zealously wrote: I'll react properly when I stop laughing in a few weeks
How can you laugh? I am in tears now, becouse this is so depressing. How can Blizzard do things like this?
I am filled with sadness and anger that i can not fucking sleep. This is one of the worst moments in my personal eSports/gaming life and that includes leaving WoW, stop playing Diablo 2/Wc3/Wc2 and closing the german Dota 1 wiki, where i was the head admin...
I don't even know what Blizzard is thinking...
Well that's because you are overreacting.
Maybe i am, but for me this is the nail in the coffin of Blizzard as a company i like. We all know, that WCS was not as good for the scene as we all would have liked, but i always wanted to believe, that it will get better and that both Dota 2 and Sc2 ,who share a very unique bond, won't have that many problems with each other.
For me Blizzard is/was one of the best video game developer, who just understood his customers. This might be a simplification, but they always were the good guys and i even feel childish to blieved that way, but that is how i felt deep down. Now i just have to accept, that they not only "*uck up" theeir own games, no(!) they also seem to do that with others. It just sadens me so much
On July 23 2013 09:25 tribulator wrote: At least there isn't any LoL for it to go against... until the grand finals at Gamescom which will be going against the European LCS finals at Gamescom.
Hooray WCS!
It's actually funny that people are also forgetting a few things because simply scheduling at the same time as TI3 is stupid enough.
1) They also scheduled all 3 finals at the same time making it impossible for anyone to watch all three unless they forgo sleep. 2) Riot also has an event at gamescon and it will be a complete and utter mess of an event for trying to get a hotel/tickets/room/being at an already packed venue 3) Riot even had the forsight to not schedule at the same time as TI3 despite being at gamescon
I don't care for their game at all but as a company they are extremely well organized and execute well designed plans. In short, not surprised Riot has their stuff together and also not surprised that Blizzard missteps once again. Something about the best predictor of future performance is...
On July 23 2013 09:13 Zealously wrote: I'll react properly when I stop laughing in a few weeks
How can you laugh? I am in tears now, becouse this is so depressing. How can Blizzard do things like this?
I am filled with sadness and anger that i can not fucking sleep. This is one of the worst moments in my personal eSports/gaming life and that includes leaving WoW, stop playing Diablo 2/Wc3/Wc2 and closing the german Dota 1 wiki, where i was the head admin...
On July 23 2013 09:13 Zealously wrote: I'll react properly when I stop laughing in a few weeks
How can you laugh? I am in tears now, becouse this is so depressing. How can Blizzard do things like this?
I am filled with sadness and anger that i can not fucking sleep. This is one of the worst moments in my personal eSports/gaming life and that includes leaving WoW, stop playing Diablo 2/Wc3/Wc2 and closing the german Dota 1 wiki, where i was the head admin...
I don't even know what Blizzard is thinking...
Dramatic much? In tears?
You dont understand how important eSporTSs is to people.
I guess I'm one of the few this doesn't change anything for :3 I'll watch OSL because it's the best, look up the results of EU and maybe watch AM if it's on.
On July 23 2013 09:13 Zealously wrote: I'll react properly when I stop laughing in a few weeks
How can you laugh? I am in tears now, becouse this is so depressing. How can Blizzard do things like this?
I am filled with sadness and anger that i can not fucking sleep. This is one of the worst moments in my personal eSports/gaming life and that includes leaving WoW, stop playing Diablo 2/Wc3/Wc2 and closing the german Dota 1 wiki, where i was the head admin...
I don't even know what Blizzard is thinking...
Dramatic much? In tears?
God forbid that some people might actually, get this, care a lot more than you... O_O
On July 23 2013 09:13 Zealously wrote: I'll react properly when I stop laughing in a few weeks
How can you laugh? I am in tears now, becouse this is so depressing. How can Blizzard do things like this?
I am filled with sadness and anger that i can not fucking sleep. This is one of the worst moments in my personal eSports/gaming life and that includes leaving WoW, stop playing Diablo 2/Wc3/Wc2 and closing the german Dota 1 wiki, where i was the head admin...
I don't even know what Blizzard is thinking...
Well that's because you are overreacting.
Maybe i am, but for me this is the nail in the coffin of Blizzard as a company i like. We all know, that WCS was not as good for the scene as we all would have liked, but i always wanted to believe, that it will get better and that both Dota 2 and Sc2 ,who share a very unique bond, won't have that many problems with each other.
For me Blizzard is/was one of the best video game developer, who just understood his customers. This might be a simplification, but they always were the good guys and i even feel childish to blieved that way, but that is how i felt deep down. Now i just have to accept, that they not only "*uck up" theeir own games, no(!) they also seem to do that with others. It just sadens me so much
This is a serious question but what is this bond between Dota 2 and SC2? Is it because Dota was a War3 mod? The games seem as different as you're going to get to me.
As to this being a nail in the coffin I just don't get it. This isn't the finals of S2 and the game itself seems more entertaining to watch than ever. They already put NASL in charge of WCS NA which was a great move. This part of the season wasn't ever going to come close to this Dota tournament anyway so people can check out both at once if they want to. It isn't even going to infringe on the grand finals of the Dota tournament! The level of reaction and vitriol this is causing is just baffling to me.
On July 23 2013 09:13 Zealously wrote: I'll react properly when I stop laughing in a few weeks
How can you laugh? I am in tears now, becouse this is so depressing. How can Blizzard do things like this?
I am filled with sadness and anger that i can not fucking sleep. This is one of the worst moments in my personal eSports/gaming life and that includes leaving WoW, stop playing Diablo 2/Wc3/Wc2 and closing the german Dota 1 wiki, where i was the head admin...
I don't even know what Blizzard is thinking...
Well that's because you are overreacting.
Maybe i am, but for me this is the nail in the coffin of Blizzard as a company i like. We all know, that WCS was not as good for the scene as we all would have liked, but i always wanted to believe, that it will get better and that both Dota 2 and Sc2 ,who share a very unique bond, won't have that many problems with each other.
For me Blizzard is/was one of the best video game developer, who just understood his customers. This might be a simplification, but they always were the good guys and i even feel childish to blieved that way, but that is how i felt deep down. Now i just have to accept, that they not only "*uck up" theeir own games, no(!) they also seem to do that with others. It just sadens me so much
dota 2 for blizzard is just like any other competitor game.The bond exists only in the mind of the fans and i am not even sure about those since the majority of dota 2 fans never heard of dota 1 and never heard of wc3/bw/sc2.Just check the dota2 reddit thingy.new fans only see dota2 as it is now.
On July 23 2013 09:13 Zealously wrote: I'll react properly when I stop laughing in a few weeks
How can you laugh? I am in tears now, becouse this is so depressing. How can Blizzard do things like this?
I am filled with sadness and anger that i can not fucking sleep. This is one of the worst moments in my personal eSports/gaming life and that includes leaving WoW, stop playing Diablo 2/Wc3/Wc2 and closing the german Dota 1 wiki, where i was the head admin...
I don't even know what Blizzard is thinking...
Well that's because you are overreacting.
Maybe i am, but for me this is the nail in the coffin of Blizzard as a company i like. We all know, that WCS was not as good for the scene as we all would have liked, but i always wanted to believe, that it will get better and that both Dota 2 and Sc2 ,who share a very unique bond, won't have that many problems with each other.
For me Blizzard is/was one of the best video game developer, who just understood his customers. This might be a simplification, but they always were the good guys and i even feel childish to blieved that way, but that is how i felt deep down. Now i just have to accept, that they not only "*uck up" theeir own games, no(!) they also seem to do that with others. It just sadens me so much
dota 2 for blizzard is just like any other competitor game.The bond exists only in the mind of the fans and i am not even sure about those since the majority of dota 2 fans never heard of dota 1 and never heard of wc3/bw/sc2.Just check the dota2 reddit thingy.new fans only see dota2 as it is now.
Really? Can you support that claim with actual evidence?
Because as far as I know, this "majority of dota 2 fans" are actually Chinese, and are only DotA 2 fans because they were DotA 1 fans. DotA was fucking massive in China, not in the esports sense that WC3 was (and BW in Korea) but it was still wildly popular, especially among amateur WC3 players.
On July 23 2013 09:13 Zealously wrote: I'll react properly when I stop laughing in a few weeks
How can you laugh? I am in tears now, becouse this is so depressing. How can Blizzard do things like this?
I am filled with sadness and anger that i can not fucking sleep. This is one of the worst moments in my personal eSports/gaming life and that includes leaving WoW, stop playing Diablo 2/Wc3/Wc2 and closing the german Dota 1 wiki, where i was the head admin...
I don't even know what Blizzard is thinking...
He's laughing because people like you blow this out of proportion every time there is a post on TL about non-ideal situations in E-Sports.
I will be on vacation and i won't have internet for at least 20 days.I especially planned to watch TI3 7-11 at an internet cafe and Blizzard just decides to fuck every1 over by doing this bullshit.I am a huge fan of starcraft,just a fan of dota.I play both games and of course i will be watching TI3.Raise ur dongers
On July 23 2013 09:44 Bagration wrote: God damn, I wonder what Starcraft could have been if a company like Riot had developed it. It's been fuckup after fuckup by Blizzard.
An even cartoonier game chock full of micro-transactions and that requires you to purchase units?
In all seriousness though, I know what you're getting at... if only Blizzard knew how to push their game in the same way.
I swear if their plan was to fuck the e-sports scene of SC they couldn't have done a better job. I don't even follow the Dota scene and I'm going to watch TI 3 because the last one was an amazing show. I don't know what I was expecting they clearly said they don't give a fuck about the e-sports part since how insignificant it is for them
On July 23 2013 09:13 Zealously wrote: I'll react properly when I stop laughing in a few weeks
How can you laugh? I am in tears now, becouse this is so depressing. How can Blizzard do things like this?
I am filled with sadness and anger that i can not fucking sleep. This is one of the worst moments in my personal eSports/gaming life and that includes leaving WoW, stop playing Diablo 2/Wc3/Wc2 and closing the german Dota 1 wiki, where i was the head admin...
I don't even know what Blizzard is thinking...
Well that's because you are overreacting.
Maybe i am, but for me this is the nail in the coffin of Blizzard as a company i like. We all know, that WCS was not as good for the scene as we all would have liked, but i always wanted to believe, that it will get better and that both Dota 2 and Sc2 ,who share a very unique bond, won't have that many problems with each other.
For me Blizzard is/was one of the best video game developer, who just understood his customers. This might be a simplification, but they always were the good guys and i even feel childish to blieved that way, but that is how i felt deep down. Now i just have to accept, that they not only "*uck up" theeir own games, no(!) they also seem to do that with others. It just sadens me so much
This is a serious question but what is this bond between Dota 2 and SC2? Is it because Dota was a War3 mod? The games seem as different as you're going to get to me.
As to this being a nail in the coffin I just don't get it. This isn't the finals of S2 and the game itself seems more entertaining to watch than ever. They already put NASL in charge of WCS NA which was a great move. This part of the season wasn't ever going to come close to this Dota tournament anyway so people can check out both at once if they want to. It isn't even going to infringe on the grand finals of the Dota tournament! The level of reaction and vitriol this is causing is just baffling to me.
I think the bond is that they're not LoL. Basically everyone from my SC2 friends list primarily plays/follows DotA 2 now.
Some people are going to have a great option to watch both, but for a lot of people (myself included) I think it's too much to follow for that weekend. I'll use the DotA downtime to get other things done like cooking/cleaning/relaxing and it'll be less enjoyable to follow the SC2 if I'm only tuning in for an occasional single game out of a bo3 set, without having any sense of continuity or storyline throughout the tournament.
As for SC2 in general, I still tune in occasionally but once I start missing the major events, the minor events seem less interesting as well. That's why I'd prefer to watch both separately, since majors always have a bigger draw than minors. In this case, I'll be mostly ignoring a major.
I honestly dont understand how such a tight timeschedule can even come up. You know all the dates of the other tournaments a couple of weeks before they take place and blizz probably gets that information even sooner than the common sc2 fan who reads it on TL.net... You know how many steps have to be taken until the grand finals can take place (Ro32, Ro16, Ro8, semis, final, for each region). I dont understand how the Challenger league and the qualifiers for it can take up so much spotlight when the premiere league is much more important.
On July 23 2013 09:13 Zealously wrote: I'll react properly when I stop laughing in a few weeks
How can you laugh? I am in tears now, becouse this is so depressing. How can Blizzard do things like this?
I am filled with sadness and anger that i can not fucking sleep. This is one of the worst moments in my personal eSports/gaming life and that includes leaving WoW, stop playing Diablo 2/Wc3/Wc2 and closing the german Dota 1 wiki, where i was the head admin...
I don't even know what Blizzard is thinking...
Well that's because you are overreacting.
Maybe i am, but for me this is the nail in the coffin of Blizzard as a company i like. We all know, that WCS was not as good for the scene as we all would have liked, but i always wanted to believe, that it will get better and that both Dota 2 and Sc2 ,who share a very unique bond, won't have that many problems with each other.
For me Blizzard is/was one of the best video game developer, who just understood his customers. This might be a simplification, but they always were the good guys and i even feel childish to blieved that way, but that is how i felt deep down. Now i just have to accept, that they not only "*uck up" theeir own games, no(!) they also seem to do that with others. It just sadens me so much
dota 2 for blizzard is just like any other competitor game.The bond exists only in the mind of the fans and i am not even sure about those since the majority of dota 2 fans never heard of dota 1 and never heard of wc3/bw/sc2.Just check the dota2 reddit thingy.new fans only see dota2 as it is now.
Really? Can you support that claim with actual evidence?
Because as far as I know, this "majority of dota 2 fans" are actually Chinese, and are only DotA 2 fans because they were DotA 1 fans. DotA was fucking massive in China, not in the esports sense that WC3 was (and BW in Korea) but it was still wildly popular, especially for the amateur WC3 players.
China and Korea where esports have different traditions and continuities are different things.Fact is the hundreds of thousands of people watching dota2 on twitch and the many dota2 tournaments with their huge success did not exist during the dota1 days when,although succesfull,dota 1 was still a niche esport just like that moba form south korea.Many of the foreign fans only know about mobas form lol and dota and could not care less about anything else.So yeah the traditional bond between sc and dota only exists between old fans of blizzard games aka the ones that playe dboth wc3/bw/dota1.The new ones could not care less about history
On July 23 2013 09:45 FaRess wrote: I swear if their plan was to fuck the e-sports scene of SC they couldn't have done a better job. I don't even follow the Dota scene and I'm going to watch TI 3 because the last one was an amazing show. I don't know what I was expecting they clearly said they don't give a fuck about the e-sports part since how insignificant it is for them
Yes putting on WCS and committing to it for multiple years already is clearly just a ruse to really stick it to us...
On July 23 2013 09:13 Zealously wrote: I'll react properly when I stop laughing in a few weeks
How can you laugh? I am in tears now, becouse this is so depressing. How can Blizzard do things like this?
I am filled with sadness and anger that i can not fucking sleep. This is one of the worst moments in my personal eSports/gaming life and that includes leaving WoW, stop playing Diablo 2/Wc3/Wc2 and closing the german Dota 1 wiki, where i was the head admin...
I don't even know what Blizzard is thinking...
Well that's because you are overreacting.
Maybe i am, but for me this is the nail in the coffin of Blizzard as a company i like. We all know, that WCS was not as good for the scene as we all would have liked, but i always wanted to believe, that it will get better and that both Dota 2 and Sc2 ,who share a very unique bond, won't have that many problems with each other.
For me Blizzard is/was one of the best video game developer, who just understood his customers. This might be a simplification, but they always were the good guys and i even feel childish to blieved that way, but that is how i felt deep down. Now i just have to accept, that they not only "*uck up" theeir own games, no(!) they also seem to do that with others. It just sadens me so much
dota 2 for blizzard is just like any other competitor game.The bond exists only in the mind of the fans and i am not even sure about those since the majority of dota 2 fans never heard of dota 1 and never heard of wc3/bw/sc2.Just check the dota2 reddit thingy.new fans only see dota2 as it is now.
Really? Can you support that claim with actual evidence?
Because as far as I know, this "majority of dota 2 fans" are actually Chinese, and are only DotA 2 fans because they were DotA 1 fans. DotA was fucking massive in China, not in the esports sense that WC3 was (and BW in Korea) but it was still wildly popular, especially for the amateur WC3 players.
China and Korea where esports have different traditions and continuities are different things.Fact is the hundreds of thousands of people watching dota2 on twitch and the many dota2 tournaments with their huge success did not exist during the dota1 days when,although succesfull,dota 1 was still a niche esport just like that moba form south korea.Many of the foreign fans only know about mobas form lol and dota and could not care less about anything else.So yeah the traditional bond between sc and dota only exists between old fans of blizzard games aka the ones that playe dboth wc3/bw/dota1.The new ones could not care less about history
I'm not even talking about "the bond between sc and dota", I'm just saying the Chinese are still far and away the majority of DotA 2 followers, and only because of how massive DotA 1 and WC3 were in China.
You think WC3 was so big just because it was a good game? No, it also had a shit ton of great custom games for the amateur players to enjoy, and DotA happened to become the biggest. Same goes for Brood War, most people played BGH/fastest and other UMS with their friends. Just because they didn't have $1 mil. tournaments for them doesn't mean they weren't huge.
On July 23 2013 09:45 FaRess wrote: I swear if their plan was to fuck the e-sports scene of SC they couldn't have done a better job. I don't even follow the Dota scene and I'm going to watch TI 3 because the last one was an amazing show. I don't know what I was expecting they clearly said they don't give a fuck about the e-sports part since how insignificant it is for them
Yes putting on WCS and committing to it for multiple years already is clearly just a ruse to really stick it to us...
Sooner or later they'll have to start doing the WCS well and not just have it exist.
On July 23 2013 09:45 FaRess wrote: I swear if their plan was to fuck the e-sports scene of SC they couldn't have done a better job. I don't even follow the Dota scene and I'm going to watch TI 3 because the last one was an amazing show. I don't know what I was expecting they clearly said they don't give a fuck about the e-sports part since how insignificant it is for them
Yes putting on WCS and committing to it for multiple years already is clearly just a ruse to really stick it to us...
Sooner or later they'll have to start doing the WCS well and not just have it exist.
Well if Blizzard keeps fucking up and the community keeps reacting so very negatively to every mistake (whether or not this is helpful, that's a different discussion entirely), there may well be no "later".
On July 23 2013 09:45 FaRess wrote: I swear if their plan was to fuck the e-sports scene of SC they couldn't have done a better job. I don't even follow the Dota scene and I'm going to watch TI 3 because the last one was an amazing show. I don't know what I was expecting they clearly said they don't give a fuck about the e-sports part since how insignificant it is for them
Yes putting on WCS and committing to it for multiple years already is clearly just a ruse to really stick it to us...
Sooner or later they'll have to start doing the WCS well and not just have it exist.
I agree. And I'm going to give them more than 1.5 seasons to do that. Especially with NASL starting up with WCS NA
The bond is part of the playerbase. DotA started as a/the mod/maps AOS (Aeon of Strife, you may remember it from sc:bw), so its real roots go way back as you might have realised, this map evolved in blizzards next big title (wc3), it was balanced, got bigger and bigger and many people loved it (more people than wc3 at some time). As you can see the scenes were always kinda together and when sc2 came out/was in beta ofc i watched streams (german and english ones) of sc2, it was only natural, that we could/would either continue with our healthy symbiosis or get our own game - but Blizzard did not realy react, so S2, Riot and Valve made their arts/moba/aos game and many who had high hopes for Sc2, did go the these other companys. This does not change history though, i was happy with Blizzard for over a decade.
It is less about the actual numbers to me and yes i agree, the gameplay has hugely improvemed since WoL and no, there will not be a real competition who will have the bigger numbers, but it shows that Blizzard is not the company it was. With the people 10 years ago, this would NOT have happend. This kind of mistakes, paired with the circumstance NASL/MLG just show me, that Blizzard and me drifted apart and this realisation, that Blizzard is not the company that it once was, that is what is hitting me so hard.
On July 23 2013 09:13 Zealously wrote: I'll react properly when I stop laughing in a few weeks
How can you laugh? I am in tears now, becouse this is so depressing. How can Blizzard do things like this?
I am filled with sadness and anger that i can not fucking sleep. This is one of the worst moments in my personal eSports/gaming life and that includes leaving WoW, stop playing Diablo 2/Wc3/Wc2 and closing the german Dota 1 wiki, where i was the head admin...
I don't even know what Blizzard is thinking...
Dramatic much? In tears?
God forbid that some people might actually, get this, care a lot more than you... O_O
In tears is a bit dramatic over one set of finals being the same weekend as another event. It not ideal, but it's what they could do. I don't see getting super worked up over something that's not ideal.
On July 23 2013 09:13 Zealously wrote: I'll react properly when I stop laughing in a few weeks
How can you laugh? I am in tears now, becouse this is so depressing. How can Blizzard do things like this?
I am filled with sadness and anger that i can not fucking sleep. This is one of the worst moments in my personal eSports/gaming life and that includes leaving WoW, stop playing Diablo 2/Wc3/Wc2 and closing the german Dota 1 wiki, where i was the head admin...
I don't even know what Blizzard is thinking...
Dramatic much? In tears?
God forbid that some people might actually, get this, care a lot more than you... O_O
In tears is a bit dramatic over one set of finals being the same weekend as another event. It not ideal, but it's what they could do. I don't see getting super worked up over something that's not ideal.
Other people may have other priorities in life. Just because you don't agree with them or don't get their emotions doesn't necessarily make them wrong.
As a Starcraft player who switched to Dota 2 while still watching some SC2, I am really disappointed by Blizzard and how they are slowly killing the game... It's SURE that the numbers of viewers of the WCS finals will decrease because of TI3, because of the guys who are watching both games and Twitch which will not be able to follow with so many people on it.
I have read some comments saying that they don't care about the number of viewers if they can watch great SC matches... But hey the sponsors don't care about the quality of the games but in the number of viewers.
Anyway I wanted to watch the WCS finals, but with Twitch dead and too little downtime during the dota games (if it's like last year), I guess I will just watch the VOD of the korea finals....
On July 23 2013 09:54 Crytash wrote: The bond is part of the playerbase. DotA started as a/the mod/maps AOS (Aeon of Strife, you may remember it from sc:bw), so its real roots go way back as you might have realised, this map evolved in blizzards next title (wc3), it was balanced, got bigger and bigger and many people loved it (more people than wc3 at some time). As you can see the scenes were always kinda together and when sc2 came out/was in beta ofc i watched streams (german and english ones) of sc2, it was only natural, that we could/would either continue with our healthy symbiosis or get our own game - but Blizzard did not realy reacted, so S2, Riot and Valve made their arts/moba/aos game and many who had high hoped for Sc2, did go the these other companys. This does not change history though, i was happy with Blizzard for over a decade.
It is less about the actual numbers to me and yes i agree, the gameplay has hugely improvemed since WoL and no, there will not be a real competition who will have the bigger numbers, but it shows that Blizzard is not the company it was. With the people 10 years ago, this would NOT have happend. This kind of mistakes, paired with the circumstance NASL/MLG just show me, that Blizzard and me drifted apart and this realisation, that Blizzard is not the company that it once was, that is what is hitting me so hard.
Blizzard had no tournaments like this 10 years ago so I don't see how you can say that. And didn't people outside of Blizzard made these mods that became so popular? I think you are giving Blizzard the company WAY too much credit for these types of things.
On July 23 2013 09:13 Zealously wrote: I'll react properly when I stop laughing in a few weeks
How can you laugh? I am in tears now, becouse this is so depressing. How can Blizzard do things like this?
I am filled with sadness and anger that i can not fucking sleep. This is one of the worst moments in my personal eSports/gaming life and that includes leaving WoW, stop playing Diablo 2/Wc3/Wc2 and closing the german Dota 1 wiki, where i was the head admin...
I don't even know what Blizzard is thinking...
Dramatic much? In tears?
God forbid that some people might actually, get this, care a lot more than you... O_O
In tears is a bit dramatic over one set of finals being the same weekend as another event. It not ideal, but it's what they could do. I don't see getting super worked up over something that's not ideal.
Other people may have other priorities in life. Just because you don't agree with them or don't get their emotions doesn't necessarily make them wrong.
Yes, but I don't discount that, but it's a little over the top in this case.
Blizzard had no tournaments like this 10 years ago so I don't see how you can say that. And didn't people outside of Blizzard made these mods that became so popular? I think you are giving Blizzard the company WAY too much credit for these types of things.
It is obvious, that i am talking about a direct fight for tournaments, but about the way and direction, this decission leads. Well they provided their community with a Mapmaker, they gave easy access to host custom games iirc they even had dota once at a event. Of course they did not make enough in terms of publishing DotA on their own, but that could be overseen easily, becouse they just were mistaken. This decission was made in full command of their mental faculties (at least i hope so) and there is no way, that they are realy thinking that this is a good or even medium solution.
On July 23 2013 09:13 Zealously wrote: I'll react properly when I stop laughing in a few weeks
How can you laugh? I am in tears now, becouse this is so depressing. How can Blizzard do things like this?
I am filled with sadness and anger that i can not fucking sleep. This is one of the worst moments in my personal eSports/gaming life and that includes leaving WoW, stop playing Diablo 2/Wc3/Wc2 and closing the german Dota 1 wiki, where i was the head admin...
I don't even know what Blizzard is thinking...
Well that's because you are overreacting.
Maybe i am, but for me this is the nail in the coffin of Blizzard as a company i like. We all know, that WCS was not as good for the scene as we all would have liked, but i always wanted to believe, that it will get better and that both Dota 2 and Sc2 ,who share a very unique bond, won't have that many problems with each other.
For me Blizzard is/was one of the best video game developer, who just understood his customers. This might be a simplification, but they always were the good guys and i even feel childish to blieved that way, but that is how i felt deep down. Now i just have to accept, that they not only "*uck up" theeir own games, no(!) they also seem to do that with others. It just sadens me so much
dota 2 for blizzard is just like any other competitor game.The bond exists only in the mind of the fans and i am not even sure about those since the majority of dota 2 fans never heard of dota 1 and never heard of wc3/bw/sc2.Just check the dota2 reddit thingy.new fans only see dota2 as it is now.
Really? Can you support that claim with actual evidence?
Because as far as I know, this "majority of dota 2 fans" are actually Chinese, and are only DotA 2 fans because they were DotA 1 fans. DotA was fucking massive in China, not in the esports sense that WC3 was (and BW in Korea) but it was still wildly popular, especially for the amateur WC3 players.
China and Korea where esports have different traditions and continuities are different things.Fact is the hundreds of thousands of people watching dota2 on twitch and the many dota2 tournaments with their huge success did not exist during the dota1 days when,although succesfull,dota 1 was still a niche esport just like that moba form south korea.Many of the foreign fans only know about mobas form lol and dota and could not care less about anything else.So yeah the traditional bond between sc and dota only exists between old fans of blizzard games aka the ones that playe dboth wc3/bw/dota1.The new ones could not care less about history
I'm not even talking about "the bond between sc and dota", I'm just saying the Chinese are still far and away the majority of DotA 2 followers, and only because of how massive DotA 1 and WC3 were in China.
You think WC3 was so big just because it was a good game? No, it also had a shit ton of great custom games for the amateur players to enjoy, and DotA happened to become the biggest. Same goes for Brood War, most people played BGH/fastest and other UMS with their friends. Just because they didn't have $1 mil. tournaments for them doesn't mean they weren't huge.
You are taking the discussion into a path I did not originally intend.The entire point of my argument with the initial guy was the fact that in the foreign scene at least dota1 was a niche esport and most of the dota2 fans,the hundreds of thousands of them,only started watching and caring about dota since dota2.They did not catch the wc3 era and even fewer remember aeon of strife in broodwar.Hence the new dota2 fans have little to no connection with the sc2 community and even less blizzard.The initial user stated something about this bond in the communities,a bond that form my perspective exist only in the elder generation of gamers who are in very small numbers.I perfectly agree with you on the info you provided on the succes and fun of wc3 in China and other parts of the world
On July 23 2013 09:13 Zealously wrote: I'll react properly when I stop laughing in a few weeks
How can you laugh? I am in tears now, becouse this is so depressing. How can Blizzard do things like this?
I am filled with sadness and anger that i can not fucking sleep. This is one of the worst moments in my personal eSports/gaming life and that includes leaving WoW, stop playing Diablo 2/Wc3/Wc2 and closing the german Dota 1 wiki, where i was the head admin...
I don't even know what Blizzard is thinking...
Well that's because you are overreacting.
Maybe i am, but for me this is the nail in the coffin of Blizzard as a company i like. We all know, that WCS was not as good for the scene as we all would have liked, but i always wanted to believe, that it will get better and that both Dota 2 and Sc2 ,who share a very unique bond, won't have that many problems with each other.
For me Blizzard is/was one of the best video game developer, who just understood his customers. This might be a simplification, but they always were the good guys and i even feel childish to blieved that way, but that is how i felt deep down. Now i just have to accept, that they not only "*uck up" theeir own games, no(!) they also seem to do that with others. It just sadens me so much
dota 2 for blizzard is just like any other competitor game.The bond exists only in the mind of the fans and i am not even sure about those since the majority of dota 2 fans never heard of dota 1 and never heard of wc3/bw/sc2.Just check the dota2 reddit thingy.new fans only see dota2 as it is now.
Really? Can you support that claim with actual evidence?
Because as far as I know, this "majority of dota 2 fans" are actually Chinese, and are only DotA 2 fans because they were DotA 1 fans. DotA was fucking massive in China, not in the esports sense that WC3 was (and BW in Korea) but it was still wildly popular, especially for the amateur WC3 players.
China and Korea where esports have different traditions and continuities are different things.Fact is the hundreds of thousands of people watching dota2 on twitch and the many dota2 tournaments with their huge success did not exist during the dota1 days when,although succesfull,dota 1 was still a niche esport just like that moba form south korea.Many of the foreign fans only know about mobas form lol and dota and could not care less about anything else.So yeah the traditional bond between sc and dota only exists between old fans of blizzard games aka the ones that playe dboth wc3/bw/dota1.The new ones could not care less about history
I'm not even talking about "the bond between sc and dota", I'm just saying the Chinese are still far and away the majority of DotA 2 followers, and only because of how massive DotA 1 and WC3 were in China.
You think WC3 was so big just because it was a good game? No, it also had a shit ton of great custom games for the amateur players to enjoy, and DotA happened to become the biggest. Same goes for Brood War, most people played BGH/fastest and other UMS with their friends. Just because they didn't have $1 mil. tournaments for them doesn't mean they weren't huge.
You are taking the discussion into a path I did not originally intend.The entire point of my argument with the initial guy was the fact that in the foreign scene at least dota1 was a niche esport and most of the dota2 fans,the hundreds of thousands of them,only started watching and caring about dota since dota2.They did not catch the wc3 era and even fewer remember aeon of strife in broodwar.Hence the new dota2 fans have little to no connection with the sc2 community and even less blizzard.The initial user stated something about this bond in the communities,a bond that form my perspective exist only in the elder generation of gamers who are in very small numbers.I perfectly agree with you on the info you provided on the succes and fun of wc3 in China and other parts of the world
I was a part the german dota 1 wiki. I bought Wc3/FT three or four times, becouse i lost the key. Dota was much more popular than wc3 itself, only becouse it was not a esport does not mean, people were not interested in it and that this is such a big thing for so many (look at reddit and here on TL) should be prove enough, that there is a bond.
See, KESPA could do this 'our way or the highway' thing because they were in a position of strength. Blizzard...not so much. Valve is probably laughing itself silly over all the free advertisement TI3 is getting right now lmao.
There is virtually no worse weekend than the one chosen, in addition to the decision of all three regions to be on the same weekend. This is the self-proclaimed "best" that Blizzard could do?
Blizzard's handling of WCS and doing their "best" continues to be catastrophic for the Starcraft II scene. And at this point I don't think that statement is hyperbole anymore.
I just don't understand how they can think that they can compete with TI3 (and this isn't shitting on Starcraft; there is no game or esport that can compete with TI3. Even Riot has scheduled LCS around TI3.) And then, even if they had scheduled this for a weekend that wasn't competing with the Superbowl of esports, they expect viewers to either a) only want to watch some of the matches and disregard the rest or b) watch Starcraft around the clock with no other obligations.
On July 23 2013 10:28 Taku wrote: See, KESPA could do this 'our way or the highway' thing because they were in a position of strength. Blizzard...not so much. Valve is probably laughing itself silly over all the free advertisement TI3 is getting right now lmao.
Your signature is obnoxious ><
It really is, but it's moments like this that justify it, no? xD
On July 23 2013 09:13 Zealously wrote: I'll react properly when I stop laughing in a few weeks
How can you laugh? I am in tears now, becouse this is so depressing. How can Blizzard do things like this?
I am filled with sadness and anger that i can not fucking sleep. This is one of the worst moments in my personal eSports/gaming life and that includes leaving WoW, stop playing Diablo 2/Wc3/Wc2 and closing the german Dota 1 wiki, where i was the head admin...
I don't even know what Blizzard is thinking...
Well that's because you are overreacting.
Maybe i am, but for me this is the nail in the coffin of Blizzard as a company i like. We all know, that WCS was not as good for the scene as we all would have liked, but i always wanted to believe, that it will get better and that both Dota 2 and Sc2 ,who share a very unique bond, won't have that many problems with each other.
For me Blizzard is/was one of the best video game developer, who just understood his customers. This might be a simplification, but they always were the good guys and i even feel childish to blieved that way, but that is how i felt deep down. Now i just have to accept, that they not only "*uck up" theeir own games, no(!) they also seem to do that with others. It just sadens me so much
dota 2 for blizzard is just like any other competitor game.The bond exists only in the mind of the fans and i am not even sure about those since the majority of dota 2 fans never heard of dota 1 and never heard of wc3/bw/sc2.Just check the dota2 reddit thingy.new fans only see dota2 as it is now.
Really? Can you support that claim with actual evidence?
Because as far as I know, this "majority of dota 2 fans" are actually Chinese, and are only DotA 2 fans because they were DotA 1 fans. DotA was fucking massive in China, not in the esports sense that WC3 was (and BW in Korea) but it was still wildly popular, especially for the amateur WC3 players.
China and Korea where esports have different traditions and continuities are different things.Fact is the hundreds of thousands of people watching dota2 on twitch and the many dota2 tournaments with their huge success did not exist during the dota1 days when,although succesfull,dota 1 was still a niche esport just like that moba form south korea.Many of the foreign fans only know about mobas form lol and dota and could not care less about anything else.So yeah the traditional bond between sc and dota only exists between old fans of blizzard games aka the ones that playe dboth wc3/bw/dota1.The new ones could not care less about history
I'm not even talking about "the bond between sc and dota", I'm just saying the Chinese are still far and away the majority of DotA 2 followers, and only because of how massive DotA 1 and WC3 were in China.
You think WC3 was so big just because it was a good game? No, it also had a shit ton of great custom games for the amateur players to enjoy, and DotA happened to become the biggest. Same goes for Brood War, most people played BGH/fastest and other UMS with their friends. Just because they didn't have $1 mil. tournaments for them doesn't mean they weren't huge.
You are taking the discussion into a path I did not originally intend.The entire point of my argument with the initial guy was the fact that in the foreign scene at least dota1 was a niche esport and most of the dota2 fans,the hundreds of thousands of them,only started watching and caring about dota since dota2.They did not catch the wc3 era and even fewer remember aeon of strife in broodwar.Hence the new dota2 fans have little to no connection with the sc2 community and even less blizzard.The initial user stated something about this bond in the communities,a bond that form my perspective exist only in the elder generation of gamers who are in very small numbers.I perfectly agree with you on the info you provided on the succes and fun of wc3 in China and other parts of the world
I was a part the german dota 1 wiki. I bought Wc3/FT three or four times, becouse i lost the key. Dota was much more popular than wc3 itself, only becouse it was not a esport does not mean, people were not interested in it and that this is such a big thing for so many (look at reddit and here on TL) should be prove enough, that there is a bond.
you sort of fall into the oldschool gamer category aka the ones who played wc3 and dota1.Most new dota2 fans never played those.And reddit and teamliquid arent representative of casual fans but more of the more involved ones.Dota2 has hundreds of thousands of watchers.How many people are in the tl and reddit forum?Couple of thousands maybe.And many say they never heard of blizzard or sc2....
On July 23 2013 10:28 Taku wrote: See, KESPA could do this 'our way or the highway' thing because they were in a position of strength. Blizzard...not so much. Valve is probably laughing itself silly over all the free advertisement TI3 is getting right now lmao.
No Valve is angry they can't sell a 'trading card' for this. Though give them time I guess.
On July 23 2013 10:28 Taku wrote: See, KESPA could do this 'our way or the highway' thing because they were in a position of strength. Blizzard...not so much. Valve is probably laughing itself silly over all the free advertisement TI3 is getting right now lmao.
Your signature is obnoxious ><
It really is, but it's moments like this that justify it, no? xD
Not really, still obnoxious. But this is the Internet, so it is expected.
No Valve is angry they can't sell a 'trading card' for this. Though give them time I guess.[/QUOTE]
Betcha a RTS that Valve sure got a great idea today for that immortal weapon they're planning to give the Compendium buyers if the prize pool hits payday
On July 23 2013 10:28 Taku wrote: See, KESPA could do this 'our way or the highway' thing because they were in a position of strength. Blizzard...not so much. Valve is probably laughing itself silly over all the free advertisement TI3 is getting right now lmao.
Your signature is obnoxious ><
It really is, but it's moments like this that justify it, no? xD
Hmm, I disagree with your signature. It's not SC2 that came for BW, it was Blizzard's short-sightedness and greed. And now, it's also Blizzard's incompetence that's hurting SC2 more than the presence of and competition with DotA2/LoL.
On July 23 2013 10:32 theking1 wrote: you sort of fall into the oldschool gamer category aka the ones who played wc3 and dota1.Most new dota2 fans never played those.And reddit and teamliquid arent representative of casual fans but more of the more involved ones.Dota2 has hundreds of thousands of watchers.How many people are in the tl and reddit forum?Couple of thousands maybe.And many say they never heard of blizzard or sc2....
Yes you are right, but you should also not underestimade the power of reddit/TL. Even casual gamers have friends, who are more involved in the scene and they gonna tell them and so forth, who says, that this shows not the general tendency of the gamers (even the more casual ones).
Over all i am sure, that many of the so called old school gamers will tune in for such events as a anual Dota 2 super bowl as TI3 is and they will know where to look (TL and so forth) and they will read some of the sadness.
Tbh the only good thing today is, that i actually accept, that Blizzard is not the Blizzard of the old and that i will think twice of supporting them in any way. I was very lucky with Diablo 3 (realy wanted to buy it, but a friend got it and i could see, how it not worked), but hey we will see what will happen with this whole scene as well.
On July 23 2013 10:28 Taku wrote: See, KESPA could do this 'our way or the highway' thing because they were in a position of strength. Blizzard...not so much. Valve is probably laughing itself silly over all the free advertisement TI3 is getting right now lmao.
Your signature is obnoxious ><
It really is, but it's moments like this that justify it, no? xD
Not really, still obnoxious. But this is the Internet, so it is expected.
Well, Blizzard justified the early shut-down of korean BW by essentially saying 'trust us and don't worry, we've got lots of good things in store for you' and clearly that statement has proven false. Kind of OT though, but yeah Blizzard's condescending statement they've put out isn't helping at all imo, they've lost serious credibility not only with the player/audience base, but more importantly with sponsors/organizers.
For the first time in years the NASL sound guy feels not only capable but extremely competent knowing that he will never be able to fuck up as badly as Blizzard did.
On July 23 2013 10:44 InstantKarma wrote: For the first time in years the NASL sound guy feels not only capable but extremely competent knowing that he will never be able to fuck up as badly as Blizzard did.
God damn, Blizzard is so dumb. How many fuck ups IN A ROW can they possibly accrue: B.net 0.2 (it's still pathetic), WoL meta turning boring as fuck, ignoring the competition of MOBAS, Diablo 3 (speaks for itself), HotS comes out and their units are still boring (hellbats, swarmhosts, remember Warhounds? LOL), no WCS region lock killing the western scene, etc...
So yeah. in the past years I've become a huge Valve fan and now have 500+ games of DotA 2 played. No regrets.
Here's a conversation of me describing the experience of Dota to my best sc2 friend: "So, if you buy the ticket to the league, you can actually obs in game" "What!? What do you mean" "I mean like in the game observing, opening graphs, vision, first person views with cursors, the whole 9 yards" "Are you serious? But then there's no casting" "Well actually the casters from the live stream have their audio streamed into the client. So you can choose between any caster you like and still observe for yourself." "What the actual fuck"
On July 23 2013 10:28 Taku wrote: See, KESPA could do this 'our way or the highway' thing because they were in a position of strength. Blizzard...not so much. Valve is probably laughing itself silly over all the free advertisement TI3 is getting right now lmao.
Your signature is obnoxious ><
It really is, but it's moments like this that justify it, no? xD
Not really, still obnoxious. But this is the Internet, so it is expected.
Well, Blizzard justified the early shut-down of korean BW by essentially saying 'trust us and don't worry, we've got lots of good things in store for you' and clearly that statement has proven false. Kind of OT though, but yeah Blizzard's condescending statement they've put out isn't helping at all imo, they've lost serious credibility not only with the player/audience base, but more importantly with sponsors/organizers.
Yeah, I'm not really seeing it, but people see what they want to see. It is always fun when some bad news comes out and the drama gets hot and people come out of the woodwork to jump on the Blizzard hate train.
This might be the biggest Blizzard fail ever. Probably bigger than no LAN in SC2 or the Diablo 3 fails. It's just mind-blowingly bad on so many levels.
On the other hand... I guess... who cares. Season 2 WCS regional finals - not that important altogether, compared to TI3, even if you don't play or watch Dota 2 at all. Hell, even non-esports people will tune in for TI3, it's arguably the biggest esports event of the year. So, thanks Blizz, you make the choice what to watch very easy.
You know what's the worst about it though - it shows blizz folks don't watch The International. Which means they are deprived of a sense of esports that anyone today should have. It's just sad.
p.s. Twitch better prepare. Prepare their servers/bandwidth etc hard, because they are gonna be up for the rape of their lives.
So Blizzard takes up e-sports in their own hands, limiting/killing other tournaments while doing so, to make SC2 a more easily viewable experience. Then proceeds to plan all the finals after eachother on the same days (=lower viewers for each), and also in the same weekend as the long announced TI3 (=twitch lag and way less viewers)? Disgusting. WTF are they doing...
On July 23 2013 10:28 Taku wrote: See, KESPA could do this 'our way or the highway' thing because they were in a position of strength. Blizzard...not so much. Valve is probably laughing itself silly over all the free advertisement TI3 is getting right now lmao.
Your signature is obnoxious ><
It really is, but it's moments like this that justify it, no? xD
Not really, still obnoxious. But this is the Internet, so it is expected.
Well, Blizzard justified the early shut-down of korean BW by essentially saying 'trust us and don't worry, we've got lots of good things in store for you' and clearly that statement has proven false. Kind of OT though, but yeah Blizzard's condescending statement they've put out isn't helping at all imo, they've lost serious credibility not only with the player/audience base, but more importantly with sponsors/organizers.
When did Blizzard shut down Korean BW?
Not saying they didn't but I just don't know.
The filed a law suit for control of their IP(aka Starcraft) in Korea to confirm they would have control over it when they sold SC2. Since BW has been running for 10 years, there was question if they even controled it in Korea. It settled out of court and Blizzard has had control of the IP ever since. It is one of the reasons Blizzard started working with GOM back in the day, rather than Kespa.
On July 23 2013 10:42 Kishin2 wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if Valve had an alternate stream provider in case Twitch explodes.
They already have. You can watch TI3 in game for free.
Yes, but those are only the games. A huge portion of the content for TI3 will only be visible on stream (for now at least..). They're preparing all out to make this event the best ever. Missing the interviews, analysts, etc. would hurt. I kind of expect them to have prepared a back up plan with youtube or something to get that through in case something they can't fix on their end goes wrong.
I'm just baffled at the thought of somewhere in Blizz HQ a group of people who makes these decisions thought this was a good plan... Who are these people who makes these decisions? They need to get fired asap because they just have 0 clue.
On July 23 2013 10:56 DwD wrote: I'm just baffled at the thought of somewhere in Blizz HQ a group of people who makes these decisions thought this was a good plan... Who are these people who makes these decisions? They need to get fired asap because they just have 0 clue.
Well the issue isn't that they want it to be this weekend, it is that there aren't any other weekends that most of the production teams can do the finals. ELS has stuff to do, NASL has World of Tanks the next weekend and they only have 12 weeks to Blizzcon. It is just how it worked out with so many players in the scene and production companies like ESL, GOM and NASL working on multiple games.
Even just keeping EU on the same weekend and moving US (mainly) and KR to a different weekend, EU will do fine with the time zones but NA already does pretty bad and this won't help.
On July 23 2013 10:56 DwD wrote: I'm just baffled at the thought of somewhere in Blizz HQ a group of people who makes these decisions thought this was a good plan... Who are these people who makes these decisions? They need to get fired asap because they just have 0 clue.
Well the issue isn't that they want it to be this weekend, it is that there aren't any other weekends that most of the production teams can do the finals. ELS has stuff to do, NASL has World of Tanks the next weekend and they only have 12 weeks to Blizzcon. It is just how it worked out with so many players in the scene and production companies like ESL, GOM and NASL working on multiple games.
I don't buy it, EU finals could have easily been sooner. WCS EU is skipping 3 weeks between the end of the ro32 and the start of the ro16.
I'm not one to jump on any hate train, and usually I'm a voice defending them, but Blizzard really messed up. I could forgive having all finals on one weekend (although it's not ideal)... but having it the same weekend as the International is just beyond belief. The International is so big, even I'll be watching it and I've maybe played an hour of Dota2 in my entire life and I watch/play SC2 pretty much every day.
It really is like scheduling the finals of a major rugby or cricket tournament at the same time as the FIFA World Cup finals. Utterly beyond belief.
On July 23 2013 10:56 DwD wrote: I'm just baffled at the thought of somewhere in Blizz HQ a group of people who makes these decisions thought this was a good plan... Who are these people who makes these decisions? They need to get fired asap because they just have 0 clue.
Well the issue isn't that they want it to be this weekend, it is that there aren't any other weekends that most of the production teams can do the finals. ELS has stuff to do, NASL has World of Tanks the next weekend and they only have 12 weeks to Blizzcon. It is just how it worked out with so many players in the scene and production companies like ESL, GOM and NASL working on multiple games.
Well it's not like they started WCS yesterday, it's just another example of the poor execution from this Blizzard esport team.
On July 23 2013 10:56 DwD wrote: I'm just baffled at the thought of somewhere in Blizz HQ a group of people who makes these decisions thought this was a good plan... Who are these people who makes these decisions? They need to get fired asap because they just have 0 clue.
Well the issue isn't that they want it to be this weekend, it is that there aren't any other weekends that most of the production teams can do the finals. ELS has stuff to do, NASL has World of Tanks the next weekend and they only have 12 weeks to Blizzcon. It is just how it worked out with so many players in the scene and production companies like ESL, GOM and NASL working on multiple games.
I don't buy it, EU finals could have easily been sooner. WCS EU is skipping 3 weeks between the end of the ro32 and the start of the ro16.
That would over lap with ASUS ROG Summer 2013 and Proleague finals, which are also that weekend. Unless they did it this weekend with almost no notice to the teams. I mean, all the options suck. I guess they could do it late August and have 9 weeks to get through season 3 before Blizzcon.
On July 23 2013 10:32 theking1 wrote: you sort of fall into the oldschool gamer category aka the ones who played wc3 and dota1.Most new dota2 fans never played those.And reddit and teamliquid arent representative of casual fans but more of the more involved ones.Dota2 has hundreds of thousands of watchers.How many people are in the tl and reddit forum?Couple of thousands maybe.And many say they never heard of blizzard or sc2....
Yes you are right, but you should also not underestimade the power of reddit/TL. Even casual gamers have friends, who are more involved in the scene and they gonna tell them and so forth, who says, that this shows not the general tendency of the gamers (even the more casual ones).
Over all i am sure, that many of the so called old school gamers will tune in for such events as a anual Dota 2 super bowl as TI3 is and they will know where to look (TL and so forth) and they will read some of the sadness.
Tbh the only good thing today is, that i actually accept, that Blizzard is not the Blizzard of the old and that i will think twice of supporting them in any way. I was very lucky with Diablo 3 (realy wanted to buy it, but a friend got it and i could see, how it not worked), but hey we will see what will happen with this whole scene as well.
it is very nice that you think so highly of the harcore gaming communities .Makes me feel better about posting on teamliqudi and reddit .As for blizzard it is only doing what it can to survive as a pay to play company in an internet dominated by free to play stuff.New fans seems to appreciate it hence the high sales of blizzard games so for them for every oldschool gamer they lose they gain a couple of thousands of new ones to fill their pockets
On July 23 2013 10:56 DwD wrote: I'm just baffled at the thought of somewhere in Blizz HQ a group of people who makes these decisions thought this was a good plan... Who are these people who makes these decisions? They need to get fired asap because they just have 0 clue.
Well the issue isn't that they want it to be this weekend, it is that there aren't any other weekends that most of the production teams can do the finals. ELS has stuff to do, NASL has World of Tanks the next weekend and they only have 12 weeks to Blizzcon. It is just how it worked out with so many players in the scene and production companies like ESL, GOM and NASL working on multiple games.
I don't buy it, EU finals could have easily been sooner. WCS EU is skipping 3 weeks between the end of the ro32 and the start of the ro16.
That would over lap with ASUS ROG Summer 2013 and Proleague finals, which are also that weekend. Unless they did it this weekend with almost no notice to the teams.
Ro16 is during weekdays, I'm suggesting that they could have started the ro16 sooner and then they would have been able to do the top 8 weekend tournament the weekend before ti3.
On July 23 2013 10:56 DwD wrote: I'm just baffled at the thought of somewhere in Blizz HQ a group of people who makes these decisions thought this was a good plan... Who are these people who makes these decisions? They need to get fired asap because they just have 0 clue.
Well the issue isn't that they want it to be this weekend, it is that there aren't any other weekends that most of the production teams can do the finals. ELS has stuff to do, NASL has World of Tanks the next weekend and they only have 12 weeks to Blizzcon. It is just how it worked out with so many players in the scene and production companies like ESL, GOM and NASL working on multiple games.
I don't buy it, EU finals could have easily been sooner. WCS EU is skipping 3 weeks between the end of the ro32 and the start of the ro16.
That would over lap with ASUS ROG Summer 2013 and Proleague finals, which are also that weekend. Unless they did it this weekend with almost no notice to the teams.
Ro16 is during weekdays, I'm suggesting that they could have started the ro16 sooner and then they would have been able to do the top 8 weekend tournament the weekend before ti3.
I don't know, that still doesn't fix the problem of NA and KR. We would be just be screaming about NA being that weekend. GOM has world of tanks playing those days as well. I don't think there is a weekend when those production crews are not spoken for. Doesn't ESL also do the LCS during the week?
Man who the fuck runs Blizzard these days. I can't believe only 4 years ago I used to think Blizzard could do no wrong. What a stupidly glorious fuckup.
On July 23 2013 10:56 DwD wrote: I'm just baffled at the thought of somewhere in Blizz HQ a group of people who makes these decisions thought this was a good plan... Who are these people who makes these decisions? They need to get fired asap because they just have 0 clue.
Well the issue isn't that they want it to be this weekend, it is that there aren't any other weekends that most of the production teams can do the finals. ELS has stuff to do, NASL has World of Tanks the next weekend and they only have 12 weeks to Blizzcon. It is just how it worked out with so many players in the scene and production companies like ESL, GOM and NASL working on multiple games.
I don't buy it, EU finals could have easily been sooner. WCS EU is skipping 3 weeks between the end of the ro32 and the start of the ro16.
That would over lap with ASUS ROG Summer 2013 and Proleague finals, which are also that weekend. Unless they did it this weekend with almost no notice to the teams.
Ro16 is during weekdays, I'm suggesting that they could have started the ro16 sooner and then they would have been able to do the top 8 weekend tournament the weekend before ti3.
I don't know, that still doesn't fix the problem of NA and KR. We would be just be screaming about NA being that weekend. GOM has world of tanks playing those days as well. I don't think there is a weekend when those production crews are not spoken for. Doesn't ESL also do the LCS during the week?
KR overlap wouldn't be a big deal because it doesn't air during the same time as TI3 and It's only the finals instead of a top 8 multi day tournament.
AM could have started earlier as well, they are way behind schedule compared to EU for some reason(most likely the mlg nasl shakeup).
On July 23 2013 10:56 DwD wrote: I'm just baffled at the thought of somewhere in Blizz HQ a group of people who makes these decisions thought this was a good plan... Who are these people who makes these decisions? They need to get fired asap because they just have 0 clue.
Well the issue isn't that they want it to be this weekend, it is that there aren't any other weekends that most of the production teams can do the finals. ELS has stuff to do, NASL has World of Tanks the next weekend and they only have 12 weeks to Blizzcon. It is just how it worked out with so many players in the scene and production companies like ESL, GOM and NASL working on multiple games.
I don't buy it, EU finals could have easily been sooner. WCS EU is skipping 3 weeks between the end of the ro32 and the start of the ro16.
That would over lap with ASUS ROG Summer 2013 and Proleague finals, which are also that weekend. Unless they did it this weekend with almost no notice to the teams.
Ro16 is during weekdays, I'm suggesting that they could have started the ro16 sooner and then they would have been able to do the top 8 weekend tournament the weekend before ti3.
I don't know, that still doesn't fix the problem of NA and KR. We would be just be screaming about NA being that weekend. GOM has world of tanks playing those days as well. I don't think there is a weekend when those production crews are not spoken for. Doesn't ESL also do the LCS during the week?
KR overlap wouldn't be a big deal because it doesn't air during the same time as TI3 and It's only the finals instead of a top 8 multi day tournament.
AM could have started earlier as well, they are way behind schedule compared to EU for some reason(most likely the mlg nasl shakeup).
Yeah, that is likely the reason for the hold up. And I think ESL has to balance is production crew between WCS and LCS, unless they have double staff, but that would be crazy.
This is the world we live in now, production studios featuring several games and sometimes the times and dates don't work out. If you take the time and try to factor into everything these studios are doing, it make sense that their time is limited. Really I am just glad Blizzard is taking the heat for this.
On July 23 2013 11:17 tshi wrote: Wait so LoL is less popular than DoTA2? I mean either way SC2 is fucked, don't get me wrong,lol. But I thought LoL was the biggest esPoRt game
No its totally the most popular game in the world still, but TI3 only comes once a year. Its like Christmas, so for that weekend it is bigger than LoL.
On July 23 2013 11:17 tshi wrote: Wait so LoL is less popular than DoTA2? I mean either way SC2 is fucked, don't get me wrong,lol. But I thought LoL was the biggest esPoRt game
well it really depends how you see stuff.from a casual perspective lol brags with more accounts but dota2 is begging to brag with many concurrent views lately too.From a proscene perspective lol has the stable lcs league while dota 2 has the multitude of tournaments and the international which is by far the biggest one weekend event in esports.Also geography is really important.Dota2 is more CHina/Eastern Euroepe/Russia while lol is mostly na/western europe/korea.Dunno nowadays its just like between football and basketball.None has a clear advantage.I persoanlly like sc2 with its many tournaments and the fact it has the cringiest drama of them all.
On July 23 2013 11:17 tshi wrote: Wait so LoL is less popular than DoTA2? I mean either way SC2 is fucked, don't get me wrong,lol. But I thought LoL was the biggest esPoRt game
well it really depends how you see stuff.from a casual perspective lol brags with more accounts but dota2 is begging to brag with many concurrent views lately too.From a proscene perspective lol has the stable lcs league while dota 2 has the multitude of tournaments and the international which is by far the biggest one weekend event in esports.Also geography is really important.Dota2 is more CHina/Eastern Euroepe/Russia while lol is mostly na/western europe/korea.Dunno nowadays its just like between football and basketball.None has a clear advantage.I persoanlly like sc2 with its many tournaments and the fact it has the cringiest drama of them all.
Dota 2 teams are to busy to have drama, since they all have like 57 matches a week to play in 24 different 15K cups. All casted by Tobiwa and all hours of the day.
On July 23 2013 11:17 tshi wrote: Wait so LoL is less popular than DoTA2? I mean either way SC2 is fucked, don't get me wrong,lol. But I thought LoL was the biggest esPoRt game
well it really depends how you see stuff.from a casual perspective lol brags with more accounts but dota2 is begging to brag with many concurrent views lately too.From a proscene perspective lol has the stable lcs league while dota 2 has the multitude of tournaments and the international which is by far the biggest one weekend event in esports.Also geography is really important.Dota2 is more CHina/Eastern Euroepe/Russia while lol is mostly na/western europe/korea.Dunno nowadays its just like between football and basketball.None has a clear advantage.I persoanlly like sc2 with its many tournaments and the fact it has the cringiest drama of them all.
Dota 2 teams are to busy to have drama, since they all have like 57 matches a week to play in 24 different 15K cups. All casted by Tobiwa and all hours of the day.
hmm..never knew the dota2 scene is this well developed.need to pay closer attention .Too much sc2 to watch so many esports
On July 23 2013 11:17 tshi wrote: Wait so LoL is less popular than DoTA2? I mean either way SC2 is fucked, don't get me wrong,lol. But I thought LoL was the biggest esPoRt game
well it really depends how you see stuff.from a casual perspective lol brags with more accounts but dota2 is begging to brag with many concurrent views lately too.From a proscene perspective lol has the stable lcs league while dota 2 has the multitude of tournaments and the international which is by far the biggest one weekend event in esports.Also geography is really important.Dota2 is more CHina/Eastern Euroepe/Russia while lol is mostly na/western europe/korea.Dunno nowadays its just like between football and basketball.None has a clear advantage.I persoanlly like sc2 with its many tournaments and the fact it has the cringiest drama of them all.
Dota 2 teams are to busy to have drama, since they all have like 57 matches a week to play in 24 different 15K cups. All casted by Tobiwa and all hours of the day.
Oh trust me, even in the most barren of landscapes the llama finds a way.
Even for people who aren't necessarily Dota 2 fans, The International 3 is a huge event that will draw in huge crowds from all over eSports. I know Rioters and League people who are attending, Starcraft people who are attending, even fighting game people who are attending. Last year's International proved that Valve knows how to put on a show, and all the storylines from that International have been maintained. The skill difference between the regions is smaller than ever, and literally any of the sixteen teams invited have a chance of taking it.
From an eSports perspective, Valve has done something amazing for the community. By crowdsourcing the tournament via the International Compendium on Dota 2, they've raised over $4 million in revenue for the event alone, $1 million of which is going to increase the already substantial prize pool to $2.6 million, the biggest in eSports history. The $4 million from Compendium sales alone might be pushing the barrier for paying for the entire event itself. Wouldn't it be cool to see something as well-produced as the International and be told, "Yes, this was all done by you, the community. All of it was paid by your passion for our game." It is a complete 180 from the way Blizzard and Riot have handled things by trying to take more of the tournament development into the company's hands.
Valve's dedication to the eSports community has been top-notch. The in-game pennant system and in-game ticket system give viewers the ability to support the tournaments they choose while also providing tangible benefit for the viewer who purchases them. Their observing client is second-to-none when it comes to the features that the game gives the viewer. You can even link your Twitch account to your Steam account with the hopes of winning items, in the case you can't actually watch the game from in-client. It's clear that Valve knows what they're doing when it comes to how to make their customers happy.
Dota 2 tournaments are flooded with constant cup after cup after cup, and it's very common to see teams play two Bo3s a day, multiple days a week. It's almost becoming a problem when it comes to Dota 2 viewership. The International is the crowning achievement for all Dota 2 teams, and it makes itself stand out from everything else in a big way. Sorry, Blizzard, but this is an easy choice for me.
LoL is more popular than Dota2 and a bigger e-sport, but The International is Dota2's Super Bowl. It's stupid to try and compete against it. I think SC2 could probably be fine against any other Dota2 tournament throughout the year, depending on what players were involved, but going against The International is just something that Blizzard really shouldn't have done. All it it's going to do is get people to scream, 'SC2 IS DEAD!' when the WCS America finals have 22,000 viewers and The International has 200,000.
On July 23 2013 11:44 Fionn wrote: LoL is more popular than Dota2 and a bigger e-sport, but The International is Dota2's Super Bowl. It's stupid to try and compete against it. I think SC2 could probably be fine against any other Dota2 tournament throughout the year, depending on what players were involved, but going against The International is just something that Blizzard really shouldn't have done. All it it's going to do is get people to scream, 'SC2 IS DEAD!' when the WCS America finals have 22,000 viewers and The International has 200,000.
Ti3 should do way better than 200k, I could see WCS getting less than 20k for the finals if they get unlucky with a boring finals, it didn't even break 20k today for a great Polt vs Taeja game that it had nothing else to compete with.
On July 23 2013 11:44 Fionn wrote: LoL is more popular than Dota2 and a bigger e-sport, but The International is Dota2's Super Bowl. It's stupid to try and compete against it. I think SC2 could probably be fine against any other Dota2 tournament throughout the year, depending on what players were involved, but going against The International is just something that Blizzard really shouldn't have done. All it it's going to do is get people to scream, 'SC2 IS DEAD!' when the WCS America finals have 22,000 viewers and The International has 200,000.
200K? Didn't it have upwards of 500K including China last year?
Didn't care much about TI3 since I'm not a fan. SC2 fans will watch sc2, Dota fans will watch TI3. Fans of both games.. its their choice lol. Stupid is three WCS finals in one weekend. And the earlier stages couple of days before that, God its tiring to watch that. And also gl to twitch,
On July 23 2013 11:44 Fionn wrote: LoL is more popular than Dota2 and a bigger e-sport, but The International is Dota2's Super Bowl. It's stupid to try and compete against it. I think SC2 could probably be fine against any other Dota2 tournament throughout the year, depending on what players were involved, but going against The International is just something that Blizzard really shouldn't have done. All it it's going to do is get people to scream, 'SC2 IS DEAD!' when the WCS America finals have 22,000 viewers and The International has 200,000.
200K? Didn't it have upwards of 500K including China last year?
Yeah, but consider that 400,000 compendiums have already been bought, with more being bought each day, and the fact that all those do is enhance viewing of TI3, they aren't actually required to view it at all. It's completely extra.
It's going to be redonkulous, and I get to be there live 8]
On July 23 2013 12:15 scBaldwin wrote: hmm well i'm very sad now.. is there anything we can do? any chance blizzard will change the dates when they see the outcry?
No place to put the events. NASL and ELS got other events to run the next weekends. They didn't want to put it here, but it is how it worked out.
Would it really be that crazy for them to host the regional finals on a weekday just before/after the weekend? Wouldn't it detract less from the event than going on the weekend?
Dota and sc2 have the most overlap of any fanbase... and I'm pretty sure the dates for TI3 have been out for a while. Blizzard can't just bullshit this off as if overlap is impossible to avoid. it's not the overlap, it's this overlap in particular. TI3 definitely the biggest thing that they should want to avoid, so don't play it off like Asus ROG is the same weekend as Assembly, because it is not the same.
OT but my brother and I were comparing games to RL sports and I think we did a good job.
DoTA2 = NBA. It has the most recognizable names and personalities. Everyone knows Na'Vi, with Puppey, Kuroky, Xboct, some Chinese players are huge, TL players like Korok and Bulba are huge, EG has Demon etc. etc. Valve with the trading cards has done great in promoting.
LoL = NFL. Biggest eSport but I don't see their players as very recognizable.
Fighting Games = XGames. With FG's nobody cares until Evo. Same as XGames, nobody watches until Evo then people all suddenly want Daigo autographs.
Call of Duty = Hockey. Violent and brutal, with a limited fanbase.
SC2 now that is probably closest to Baseball. Or maybe Tennis. But I like the Baseball analogy more. A hardcore viewing experience, most people consider SCII boring to watch but for the included it can be most exciting. SCII like Baseball is slow but with really exciting and tense moments. Also both have gratuitous downtime.
SCII has some recognizable stars, and like baseball only one region has all the best players. (a bit of a stretch as MLB is multicultural but still USA has no equal).
So anyway imagine if the World Series got put up against NBA Finals. It would maybe be okay admittedly but there would be very polarized viewing audiences. Baseball would get killed because as a young person, you would never choose MLB > NBA.
Same thing in SC2, I just feel like the hype train is much much too strong for DoTA2. Its really cocky for Blizzard to do this.
I just think Blizzard is a cheesy and awful company now, its like the Microsoft of games. The 2010 Microsoft. Pay2Win in WoW, 24 hours straight of SCII, Diablo 3 auctions. Just too much bullshit.
Am I the only one thinking this is no big deal? SC2 EU and KR shouldnt be affected, or minimally affected. WCS AM is also the least interesting one to me. And theres generally enough downtime on streams to enjoy both (WCS AM and TI3). I'll be sure to enjoy every hour of esports that weekend.
On July 23 2013 12:20 Kreb wrote: Am I the only one thinking this is no big deal? SC2 EU and KR shouldnt be affected, or minimally affected. WCS AM is also the least interesting one to me. And theres generally enough downtime on streams to enjoy both (WCS AM and TI3). I'll be sure to enjoy every hour of esports that weekend.
They may be able to work around TI3 or have minimal overlap, it depends on what is going on. It is the finals, so it can't take that long.
On July 23 2013 12:20 Kreb wrote: Am I the only one thinking this is no big deal? SC2 EU and KR shouldnt be affected, or minimally affected. WCS AM is also the least interesting one to me. And theres generally enough downtime on streams to enjoy both (WCS AM and TI3). I'll be sure to enjoy every hour of esports that weekend.
You're not the only one. I don't care about dota2 or moba games in general, and I'll just do what I always do when it comes to watching any sc2. I'll watch what I can (probably wcs kr and a bit of am, eu is in the middle of the night for me), and check TL for results on what I missed. Don't really have time for vods unfortunately.
On July 23 2013 12:20 Kreb wrote: Am I the only one thinking this is no big deal? SC2 EU and KR shouldnt be affected, or minimally affected. WCS AM is also the least interesting one to me. And theres generally enough downtime on streams to enjoy both (WCS AM and TI3). I'll be sure to enjoy every hour of esports that weekend.
They may be able to work around TI3 or have minimal overlap, it depends on what is going on. It is the finals, so it can't take that long.
I'm pretty sure that NA and EU will be playing RO8 and on (including placement match) that weekend like they did last season, and the schedule posted in the OP includes semifinals scheduling for korea but only RO16 group stages for US/EU.
When I fall asleep at night all warm and comfy in my bed, I always dream of a better place. A place where Blizzard and Valve ban together; a titan of esports would be born. Together they would bring balance to all of esports; dethroning the evil Riot and its LoL minions...
And I wake up to this >.< ughhhhh. I would bend over backwards and twist 180 to avoid going up against the TI3. There are no positives to this. It's just pain, lots of pain for both games.
As a both avid SC2 fan as well as a Dota 2 player, I'm gonna stick with the International and probably WCS KR only The hype thats been building up and the quality of production for the International shown from last year makes TI3 impossible to miss out. Well, good luck Blizzard
I agree with Fionn/Polt that people will be screaming about the delicate fabric of eSportS being torn to shreds by this event. HOpefully the next event that Blizzard or whomever does willl have pretty decent numbers to calm down those people who say SC2/the well-oiled machinery of eSporTs is in peril -_-.
I know nothing about Dota2, but something about a $2million+ prizepool of a tournament makes it very hard not to atleast check out the finals. Still, having 3 regions of WCS in a span of 2 days is gonna be rough
If this years International is anything like last years International there isn't really all that much downtime, they're pretty good at making sure that games are going to be shown pretty much at all times. That's one of the many reasons the International is so great.
I don't follow Sc2 anymore so this doesn't affect me, but I can't see how the people planning this didn't think this was a bad idea.
If I end up having time to watch anything that weekend, I'm gonna watch The International even though I don't like Dota just to avoid supporting Blizzard with this crap.
On July 23 2013 12:43 RockIronrod wrote: To me it just seems more like an underhanded way to stifle Dota growth in Korea than incompetence.
What are you talking about? IT3 will be played at inconvenient hours for Korea, while WCS SC2 is played at regular hour. If you want to watch Dota2 from Korea, you pretty much have to sacrifice anyway, whether there's SC2 tournament or not. That week schedule is hard for NA to adjust, but for people who follow KR and EU, it's not that much of the problem.
On July 23 2013 13:50 scintilliaSD wrote: David GoDz Parker @BTSGoDz 16秒 @scintilliaSD @GenericGamer Ti3 will also be streamed on youtube live apparently
Well, this is another possible solution for Valve when it comes to potential Twitch issues from too much traffic.
On July 23 2013 13:50 scintilliaSD wrote: David GoDz Parker @BTSGoDz 16秒 @scintilliaSD @GenericGamer Ti3 will also be streamed on youtube live apparently
Well, this is another possible solution for Valve when it comes to potential Twitch issues from too much traffic.
But no items this way
Open shitty laggy twitch stream, mute it, watch on youtube, profit ^^
On July 23 2013 13:50 scintilliaSD wrote: David GoDz Parker @BTSGoDz 16秒 @scintilliaSD @GenericGamer Ti3 will also be streamed on youtube live apparently
Well, this is another possible solution for Valve when it comes to potential Twitch issues from too much traffic.
But no items this way
Open shitty laggy twitch stream, mute it, watch on youtube, profit ^^
does blizzard hate us? im pretty there will be ppl choosing one over other between these two times,, and how can u pick something else over 2.6m+ prizepool tournament which will be one of the biggest/best tournaments to date?
While obviously this isn't handy, maybe the people here could explain when exactly they should hold those WCS rounds?
Last weekend, DH valencia, next one IEM Shangai, after that ASUS ROG. Add that the facilities also need to be free, I don't think those studios are exclusively kept all year long for SC2, and it really is alot easier to complain about it than to find an alternative. But the SC2 community has always been great at complaining.
On July 23 2013 15:10 Sissors wrote: While obviously this isn't handy, maybe the people here could explain when exactly they should hold those WCS rounds?
Last weekend, DH valencia, next one IEM Shangai, after that ASUS ROG. Add that the facilities also need to be free, I don't think those studios are exclusively kept all year long for SC2, and it really is alot easier to complain about it than to find an alternative. But the SC2 community has always been great at complaining.
If WCS EU had to be played that weekend it would be fine with time zones (not ideal) but putting three on the same weekend makes it hard for people to watch all of it and then NA will have to run vs Ti3 is just stupid. It just doesn't seem like blizzard is doing much right to try and help sc2 grow.
There was point of time where I felt WoW was magnum opus of gaming. I feel ashamed for ever liking Blizzard. I am really sad by this. I was never a SC guy but since I started following TB it looks like a big shame what Blizzard is doing to it.
On July 23 2013 11:39 scintilliaSD wrote: Even for people who aren't necessarily Dota 2 fans, The International 3 is a huge event that will draw in huge crowds from all over eSports. I know Rioters and League people who are attending, Starcraft people who are attending, even fighting game people who are attending. Last year's International proved that Valve knows how to put on a show, and all the storylines from that International have been maintained. The skill difference between the regions is smaller than ever, and literally any of the sixteen teams invited have a chance of taking it.
From an eSports perspective, Valve has done something amazing for the community. By crowdsourcing the tournament via the International Compendium on Dota 2, they've raised over $4 million in revenue for the event alone, $1 million of which is going to increase the already substantial prize pool to $2.6 million, the biggest in eSports history. The $4 million from Compendium sales alone might be pushing the barrier for paying for the entire event itself. Wouldn't it be cool to see something as well-produced as the International and be told, "Yes, this was all done by you, the community. All of it was paid by your passion for our game." It is a complete 180 from the way Blizzard and Riot have handled things by trying to take more of the tournament development into the company's hands.
Valve's dedication to the eSports community has been top-notch. The in-game pennant system and in-game ticket system give viewers the ability to support the tournaments they choose while also providing tangible benefit for the viewer who purchases them. Their observing client is second-to-none when it comes to the features that the game gives the viewer. You can even link your Twitch account to your Steam account with the hopes of winning items, in the case you can't actually watch the game from in-client. It's clear that Valve knows what they're doing when it comes to how to make their customers happy.
Dota 2 tournaments are flooded with constant cup after cup after cup, and it's very common to see teams play two Bo3s a day, multiple days a week. It's almost becoming a problem when it comes to Dota 2 viewership. The International is the crowning achievement for all Dota 2 teams, and it makes itself stand out from everything else in a big way. Sorry, Blizzard, but this is an easy choice for me.
Thanks for the insight. People should not be too surprised by another WCS debacle.
It was clear the day the WCS thing was announced that Blizzard slammed it together at the last minute with little planning. This latest event is just another symptom of Blizzard's haste.
Wow. This isn't the 'occasional fuck-up' or 'gross incompetence' that Blizzard regularly displays. Beyond doubt this was done deliberately and Blizzard simply thinks they can punch far above their weight. It seems viewer experience is a acceptable sacrifice when it comes to competing with Valve. Honestly I never liked mobas but if twitch won't die on that day I'd rather give dota a chance than fall into Blizzards machinations.
On July 23 2013 10:48 figq wrote: This might be the biggest Blizzard fail ever. Probably bigger than no LAN in SC2 or the Diablo 3 fails. It's just mind-blowingly bad on so many levels.
On the other hand... I guess... who cares. Season 2 WCS regional finals - not that important altogether, compared to TI3, even if you don't play or watch Dota 2 at all. Hell, even non-esports people will tune in for TI3, it's arguably the biggest esports event of the year. So, thanks Blizz, you make the choice what to watch very easy.
You know what's the worst about it though - it shows blizz folks don't watch The International. Which means they are deprived of a sense of esports that anyone today should have. It's just sad.
p.s. Twitch better prepare. Prepare their servers/bandwidth etc hard, because they are gonna be up for the rape of their lives.
Its not Blizzard's fucking job to watch the International, its their job to run the WCS on schedule which is why this is timed like this.
I seriously don't understand why this is such a big deal you can watch one or the other or have 2 streams open and watch both during the downtime and don't even play the "I watch every single game of every tournament" card that is the biggest lie that I've ever heard.
"Sense of E-Sports" what does that even mean? I am not patriotic because I watch online gaming tournaments, I watch them because I like watching pro players in the gaems that I play compete at them. And if you think that non-Esports people are going to actually watch and pay attention to TI3 you are kidding yourself, maybe it will get their attention with its large views but believe me that "sense of E-sports" is felt by very few people who actually watch competitive gaming.
On July 23 2013 10:48 figq wrote: This might be the biggest Blizzard fail ever. Probably bigger than no LAN in SC2 or the Diablo 3 fails. It's just mind-blowingly bad on so many levels.
On the other hand... I guess... who cares. Season 2 WCS regional finals - not that important altogether, compared to TI3, even if you don't play or watch Dota 2 at all. Hell, even non-esports people will tune in for TI3, it's arguably the biggest esports event of the year. So, thanks Blizz, you make the choice what to watch very easy.
You know what's the worst about it though - it shows blizz folks don't watch The International. Which means they are deprived of a sense of esports that anyone today should have. It's just sad.
p.s. Twitch better prepare. Prepare their servers/bandwidth etc hard, because they are gonna be up for the rape of their lives.
Its not Blizzard's fucking job to watch the International, its their job to run the WCS on schedule which is why this is timed like this.
I seriously don't understand why this is such a big deal you can watch one or the other or have 2 streams open and watch both during the downtime and don't even play the "I watch every single game of every tournament" card that is the biggest lie that I've ever heard.
"Sense of E-Sports" what does that even mean? I am not patriotic because I watch online gaming tournaments, I watch them because I like watching pro players in the gaems that I play compete at them. And if you think that non-Esports people are going to actually watch and pay attention to TI3 you are kidding yourself, maybe it will get their attention with its large views but believe me that "sense of E-sports" is felt by very few people who actually watch competitive gaming.
Agreed, for people who claim that, the only fix seems to be if blizzard just stops broadcasting anything but ro16. With only ro16 to broadcast there would be tons of room to make perfect schedules that would make everyone happy and would make esports so much better, right.
Totalbiscuit would not be so fatigued too from watching all dat starcraft, and could perhaps find some energy to run few more shoutcrafts.
Its not Blizzard's fucking job to watch the International, its their job to run the WCS on schedule which is why this is timed like this.
I seriously don't understand why this is such a big deal you can watch one or the other or have 2 streams open and watch both during the downtime and don't even play the "I watch every single game of every tournament" card that is the biggest lie that I've ever heard.
"Sense of E-Sports" what does that even mean? I am not patriotic because I watch online gaming tournaments, I watch them because I like watching pro players in the gaems that I play compete at them. And if you think that non-Esports people are going to actually watch and pay attention to TI3 you are kidding yourself, maybe it will get their attention with its large views but believe me that "sense of E-sports" is felt by very few people who actually watch competitive gaming.
Well, WCS and TI2 will be both stramed and with recent lack of quality Twitch might go under. In that case, DotA 2 people will go inclient and what SC2 people would do?
You think Blizz worry that much about it overlapping? Get real, they only worry about their WoW numbers dropping. This hasn't been the case for SC2 in the past, and neither it will be now or in the near future.
On July 23 2013 10:48 figq wrote: This might be the biggest Blizzard fail ever. Probably bigger than no LAN in SC2 or the Diablo 3 fails. It's just mind-blowingly bad on so many levels.
On the other hand... I guess... who cares. Season 2 WCS regional finals - not that important altogether, compared to TI3, even if you don't play or watch Dota 2 at all. Hell, even non-esports people will tune in for TI3, it's arguably the biggest esports event of the year. So, thanks Blizz, you make the choice what to watch very easy.
You know what's the worst about it though - it shows blizz folks don't watch The International. Which means they are deprived of a sense of esports that anyone today should have. It's just sad.
p.s. Twitch better prepare. Prepare their servers/bandwidth etc hard, because they are gonna be up for the rape of their lives.
Its not Blizzard's fucking job to watch the International, its their job to run the WCS on schedule which is why this is timed like this.
I seriously don't understand why this is such a big deal you can watch one or the other or have 2 streams open and watch both during the downtime and don't even play the "I watch every single game of every tournament" card that is the biggest lie that I've ever heard.
"Sense of E-Sports" what does that even mean? I am not patriotic because I watch online gaming tournaments, I watch them because I like watching pro players in the gaems that I play compete at them. And if you think that non-Esports people are going to actually watch and pay attention to TI3 you are kidding yourself, maybe it will get their attention with its large views but believe me that "sense of E-sports" is felt by very few people who actually watch competitive gaming.
Agreed, for people who claim that, the only fix seems to be if blizzard just stops broadcasting anything but ro16. With only ro16 to broadcast there would be tons of room to make perfect schedules that would make everyone happy and would make esports so much better, right.
Totalbiscuit would not be so fatigued too from watching all dat starcraft, and could perhaps find some energy to run few more shoutcrafts.
That one sentence in my post is what this whole issue is about in the first place and people arguing against Blizzard about it have the most baseless argument that I've ever seen. Also thanks for supporting my rant about Blizzard hate, I thought I would get shot down immediately on TL.
Normally I think the community has a tendency to overreact.
But this is just a disaster.
This makes me want to march down to the Blizzard Corporate office at Irvine to demand a job. I don't know who is working in Blizzard's e-sports department but it takes talent to fuck something up this bad.
Its not Blizzard's fucking job to watch the International, its their job to run the WCS on schedule which is why this is timed like this.
I seriously don't understand why this is such a big deal you can watch one or the other or have 2 streams open and watch both during the downtime and don't even play the "I watch every single game of every tournament" card that is the biggest lie that I've ever heard.
"Sense of E-Sports" what does that even mean? I am not patriotic because I watch online gaming tournaments, I watch them because I like watching pro players in the gaems that I play compete at them. And if you think that non-Esports people are going to actually watch and pay attention to TI3 you are kidding yourself, maybe it will get their attention with its large views but believe me that "sense of E-sports" is felt by very few people who actually watch competitive gaming.
Well, WCS and TI2 will be both stramed and with recent lack of quality Twitch might go under. In that case, DotA 2 people will go inclient and what SC2 people would do?
Wait a few days because WCS Regional finals aren't that important in the long run and are meaningless in the SC2 scene compared to TI3 in the Dota 2 scene.
Also lets not forget that this hasn't even happened yet and Twitch going down is just baseless speculation at this point since Twitch is really inconsistent about how many people it can hold.
It's more just Blizzard showing how amateur they are by forcing the schedule conflict like this. Considering TI3 is a once a year thing and that its date has been known WELL in advance, this just feels like a crazy SO forcing you to choose sides. Their handling of this sends all the wrong messages about how well played any faith in them would be.
On July 23 2013 16:08 Taku wrote: It's more just Blizzard showing how amateur they are by forcing the schedule conflict like this. Considering TI3 is a once a year thing and that its date has been known WELL in advance, this just feels like a crazy SO forcing you to choose sides. Their handling of this sends all the wrong messages about how well played any faith in them would be.
So who should they have screwed over instead? DH, IEM or ROG? Complaining it collides with something is easy, everyone can do it, as clearly demonstrated by this topic. Making a schedule where everyone is happy is alot harder.
Until today I never heard about this event (believing this topic I should pretty much end my own misery, considering I am 'deprived of a sense of e-sports everyone should have'. Well good to know.
I see it is a US based event. With some luck that means the overlap with WCS EU is minimal. What remains is WCS AM. So the RO16 onwards of the smallest region for one season collides with a major event. Is that handy? Of course not? Could that have been planned better? Pretty sure yes. But the majority of the posters here make you believe the mayas were right after all and the end of the world as we know it is coming, all because of two tournaments colliding.
On July 23 2013 16:04 Vindicare605 wrote: Normally I think the community has a tendency to overreact.
But this is just a disaster.
This makes me want to march down to the Blizzard Corporate office at Irvine to demand a job. I don't know who is working in Blizzard's e-sports department but it takes talent to fuck something up this bad.
Kim Phan apparently
I love how they say it's beyond their control and "unworkable complexity" lawl.
On July 23 2013 16:08 Taku wrote: It's more just Blizzard showing how amateur they are by forcing the schedule conflict like this. Considering TI3 is a once a year thing and that its date has been known WELL in advance, this just feels like a crazy SO forcing you to choose sides. Their handling of this sends all the wrong messages about how well played any faith in them would be.
So who should they have screwed over instead? DH, IEM or ROG? Complaining it collides with something is easy, everyone can do it, as clearly demonstrated by this topic. Making a schedule where everyone is happy is alot harder.
Until today I never heard about this event (believing this topic I should pretty much end my own misery, considering I am 'deprived of a sense of e-sports everyone should have'. Well good to know.
I see it is a US based event. With some luck that means the overlap with WCS EU is minimal. What remains is WCS AM. So the RO16 onwards of the smallest region for one season collides with a major event. Is that handy? Of course not? Could that have been planned better? Pretty sure yes. But the majority of the posters here make you believe the mayas were right after all and the end of the world as we know it is coming, all because of two tournaments colliding.
That's the thing though, it isn't just a US-based event. It's like the world cup of dota, this is a gathering of the best of the best from all around the world. Aside from the expected Chinese presence, EU is always big, NA teams are very competitive now, and even Korean teams are trying to find their way in right now. Viewership alone is huge all across the board not to mention a prize pool that SC2 can't touch. I'm not sure whether you comprehend the scale of this event, but if even Blizzard can't see it then they're toast within a few years should they stay this out of touch with reality. TI3 and dota2 in general have some of the smartest and brightest minds in valve and various community heads running the show such as the GD Studio and BTS, and Blizzard want to throw their now-substandard product up against that? Not to mention riot running around like a steamroller taking whatever they can get.
On July 23 2013 16:08 Taku wrote: It's more just Blizzard showing how amateur they are by forcing the schedule conflict like this. Considering TI3 is a once a year thing and that its date has been known WELL in advance, this just feels like a crazy SO forcing you to choose sides. Their handling of this sends all the wrong messages about how well played any faith in them would be.
So who should they have screwed over instead? DH, IEM or ROG? Complaining it collides with something is easy, everyone can do it, as clearly demonstrated by this topic. Making a schedule where everyone is happy is alot harder.
Until today I never heard about this event (believing this topic I should pretty much end my own misery, considering I am 'deprived of a sense of e-sports everyone should have'. Well good to know.
I see it is a US based event. With some luck that means the overlap with WCS EU is minimal. What remains is WCS AM. So the RO16 onwards of the smallest region for one season collides with a major event. Is that handy? Of course not? Could that have been planned better? Pretty sure yes. But the majority of the posters here make you believe the mayas were right after all and the end of the world as we know it is coming, all because of two tournaments colliding.
Well actually 16-18 august weekend seems to have absolutely nothing going on so i actually have no idea why they did not have EU/AM finals at that week.
I don't really care that its the same weekend as some big MOBA tournament. For me personally MOBA is fun to play, but super boring to watch.
I worry about if twitch can handle this though. The past 6 weeks twitch hasn't been great in EU.
What pisses me off is that it will now be completely impossible to watch all 3 live. I guess I will have to pass on the NA one since it has the worst time slot for us in EU.
For 2014, maybe there should only be 3 seasons, seing as fitting in 3 from HotS launch till November has been very tight.
Come on, get your dual screen setup already!!! :ppp Im not at all suprised by what Blizzard just did, its obvious they havent planned the whole WCS thing correctly this year. There are so many mistakes already. Its sad I wont be able to watch EU,KR and NA, but Ive given up on Blizzard a long time ago.
On July 23 2013 08:01 dcsoda wrote: I'm sorry but is this Dota tournament not going to have any downtime? Nothing between games? You can't have two windows open? It's not even the S2 grand finals or whatever it's just the region ones. I don't get this amount of negative reaction.
if last year is any reference, there wont be any downtime at all. the international was the best run tournament in the history of western esport and i doubt valve will suddenly break down riot-style and fuck everything up. ~5 minutes between games and that was it.
On July 23 2013 16:08 Taku wrote: It's more just Blizzard showing how amateur they are by forcing the schedule conflict like this. Considering TI3 is a once a year thing and that its date has been known WELL in advance, this just feels like a crazy SO forcing you to choose sides. Their handling of this sends all the wrong messages about how well played any faith in them would be.
So who should they have screwed over instead? DH, IEM or ROG? Complaining it collides with something is easy, everyone can do it, as clearly demonstrated by this topic. Making a schedule where everyone is happy is alot harder.
Until today I never heard about this event (believing this topic I should pretty much end my own misery, considering I am 'deprived of a sense of e-sports everyone should have'. Well good to know.
I see it is a US based event. With some luck that means the overlap with WCS EU is minimal. What remains is WCS AM. So the RO16 onwards of the smallest region for one season collides with a major event. Is that handy? Of course not? Could that have been planned better? Pretty sure yes. But the majority of the posters here make you believe the mayas were right after all and the end of the world as we know it is coming, all because of two tournaments colliding.
Well actually 16-18 august weekend seems to have absolutely nothing going on so i actually have no idea why they did not have EU/AM finals at that week.
Studio availability? I obviously don't know their schedule, but those studios aren't exclusively reserved for SC2.
On July 23 2013 16:08 Taku wrote: It's more just Blizzard showing how amateur they are by forcing the schedule conflict like this. Considering TI3 is a once a year thing and that its date has been known WELL in advance, this just feels like a crazy SO forcing you to choose sides. Their handling of this sends all the wrong messages about how well played any faith in them would be.
So who should they have screwed over instead? DH, IEM or ROG? Complaining it collides with something is easy, everyone can do it, as clearly demonstrated by this topic. Making a schedule where everyone is happy is alot harder.
Until today I never heard about this event (believing this topic I should pretty much end my own misery, considering I am 'deprived of a sense of e-sports everyone should have'. Well good to know.
I see it is a US based event. With some luck that means the overlap with WCS EU is minimal. What remains is WCS AM. So the RO16 onwards of the smallest region for one season collides with a major event. Is that handy? Of course not? Could that have been planned better? Pretty sure yes. But the majority of the posters here make you believe the mayas were right after all and the end of the world as we know it is coming, all because of two tournaments colliding.
That's the thing though, it isn't just a US-based event.
Is it played in the US? Yes? So it is US-based. I assume it uses pretty normal times? (So not games at 0300 local), then with some luck the overlap with WCS EU shouldn't be too major.
But looking at the rest of your post + sig you are just here to troll.
On July 23 2013 08:01 dcsoda wrote: I'm sorry but is this Dota tournament not going to have any downtime? Nothing between games? You can't have two windows open? It's not even the S2 grand finals or whatever it's just the region ones. I don't get this amount of negative reaction.
if last year is any reference, there wont be any downtime at all. the international was the best run tournament in the history of western esport and i doubt valve will suddenly break down riot-style and fuck everything up. ~5 minutes between games and that was it.
I know it was last year but it wasn't just five minutes between games lol, there wasn't a lot of stream downtime if any at all, always entertained by 2GD &co. but there were fairly long breaks between games at times
On July 23 2013 16:08 Taku wrote: It's more just Blizzard showing how amateur they are by forcing the schedule conflict like this. Considering TI3 is a once a year thing and that its date has been known WELL in advance, this just feels like a crazy SO forcing you to choose sides. Their handling of this sends all the wrong messages about how well played any faith in them would be.
So who should they have screwed over instead? DH, IEM or ROG? Complaining it collides with something is easy, everyone can do it, as clearly demonstrated by this topic. Making a schedule where everyone is happy is alot harder.
Until today I never heard about this event (believing this topic I should pretty much end my own misery, considering I am 'deprived of a sense of e-sports everyone should have'. Well good to know.
I see it is a US based event. With some luck that means the overlap with WCS EU is minimal. What remains is WCS AM. So the RO16 onwards of the smallest region for one season collides with a major event. Is that handy? Of course not? Could that have been planned better? Pretty sure yes. But the majority of the posters here make you believe the mayas were right after all and the end of the world as we know it is coming, all because of two tournaments colliding.
Well actually 16-18 august weekend seems to have absolutely nothing going on so i actually have no idea why they did not have EU/AM finals at that week.
Because Gamescom starts on 22. Aug. which is 4 days later. To short of a distance.
Well, there goes my already slim chances of watching the WCS finals. TI3 is like a holy grail of esports, with the hype and anticipation, currently even and exciting scene, 2.6 million prize pool.
Putting your quad-annual (word?) finals up against that just shows that Blizz doesn't care. Well, that and the marathon idea.
I actually like this in a selfish kind of way IF Twitch can handle it, as I can just dedicate the whole weekend to watching non-stop games and always have the ability to switch between events during matchups I don't care about. It's preferable than having to spend two separate weekends watching individual events.
However, it's far from optimal for either organizer as well as people who want to catch 100% of each event. And if the streaming service fails to withstand the overload, it's going to be a disaster for everybody.
On July 23 2013 18:01 Talin wrote: And if the streaming service fails to withstand the overload, it's going to be a disaster for everybody.
It was my understanding that this hypothetical situation would only be disastrous for those relying solely on Twitch for their broadcast (i.e. Blizzard/SC2).
TI2 made me switch 100% from watching BW/SC2 last year and I regret nothing seeing what happened with SC2 and blizzard in general.
Sucks for every SC2 spectator getting fucked if you follow both SC2 and Dota2 and not to mention the 99.99% twitch failure thats bound to happen. At least Dota2 has DotaTV and SC2 has only Twitch to fall back to.
On July 23 2013 18:01 Talin wrote: And if the streaming service fails to withstand the overload, it's going to be a disaster for everybody.
It was my understanding that this hypothetical situation would only be disastrous for those relying solely on Twitch for their broadcast (i.e. Blizzard/SC2).
For the most part yeah, but I think it would also catch a big chunk of the Dota 2 audience. Such as those who would watch TI3 on devices that can't really run the game client, or casual/new/curious viewers that simply don't know that watching in-client is even possible or don't want to bother installing and fiddling with it.
The core Dota 2 audience is going to be perfectly fine obviously.
I think they just made it on the weekend of the international because then we are mad about that and not about they make all 3 finals at the same time.
On July 23 2013 06:53 tribulator wrote: I hope blizzards announcement is something to the liking of "After having received over 250 emails from valve addresses only containing the text "hahahahah", we have decided to reschedule for the weekend after".
The overlap between WCS EU and WCS AM is going to be minimal.
California is 9 hours behind Germany. So if AM at 10am local (guesstimate), it'll be 7pm in EU and potentially already over or in the last series. If you delayed until 11 or 12 it wouldn't be an issue at all.
WCS KR will only be on the Saturday morning as it is just the final, so clashes with EU, but shouldn't be too much of an issue as it should start at least 2 hours before EU does, so should only clash with the first series at worst.
It will be hard to follow both EU and AM for sure, but it's certainly not the first time there has been a large EU event followed by a large AM event.
The only thing that truly sucks is the clash with the International 3 as I know, myself included, that a lot of people watch both games. There is also the largest CoD4 event of the year on the same dates (EU time) just to be truly annoying for some.
I also worry about Twitch, hopefully a large amount of people watch in-game for dota.
On July 23 2013 18:10 SkelA wrote: TI2 made me switch 100% from watching BW/SC2 last year and I regret nothing seeing what happened with SC2 and blizzard in general.
Sucks for every SC2 spectator getting fucked if you follow both SC2 and Dota2 and not to mention the 99.99% twitch failure thats bound to happen. At least Dota2 has DotaTV and SC2 has only Twitch to fall back to.
I completely agree man.. so disappoint with Blizzard.
good thing I don't care about TI3 thing, will make it easy for me but atleast I learned a bit about it in this thread. But Gamescon is just perfect for it and ESL. The TI3 date is known since April, so I rather wonder how this slipped past 3 organizers and Blizzard, atleast I would rather have the Ro32 a bit more cramped rather then the Region Finals colliding with TI.
Atleast next year they will have a few extra month for their triple season, hopefully that will prevent this stuff.
Edit: lol nvm sc2 event after sc2 event, those should have priority to avoid over other things even if its TI.
On July 23 2013 18:51 Anima.pk wrote: TI3 would be streamed via youtube too apparently. source is Godz
in addition to being streamed on twitch, so expect a ton of people to still watch on twitch. Advice for everyone who can watch TI3 ingame, do that. Horrible lag will happen this weekend, dotaTV should be much better than twitch
On July 23 2013 18:10 SkelA wrote: TI2 made me switch 100% from watching BW/SC2 last year and I regret nothing seeing what happened with SC2 and blizzard in general.
On July 23 2013 18:10 SkelA wrote: TI2 made me switch 100% from watching BW/SC2 last year and I regret nothing seeing what happened with SC2 and blizzard in general.
What happened to SC2 and blizzard in general?
the new wcs system happened. bnet0.2. do i need to continue?
What's wrong with the new WCS system? Yeah WCS AM not biggest success, but I thought everyone was really happy about how WCS EU turned out. for KR not much of a change.
Also no idea what happened with bnet that apparantly is so horrible, but if you hate it so much, then you don't watch anyway. So how does it affect you again?
On July 23 2013 18:10 SkelA wrote: TI2 made me switch 100% from watching BW/SC2 last year and I regret nothing seeing what happened with SC2 and blizzard in general.
What happened to SC2 and blizzard in general?
the new wcs system happened. bnet0.2. do i need to continue?
Yes. Throw all your fellings (Hate), it can make you feel better.
On July 23 2013 19:15 Sissors wrote: What's wrong with the new WCS system? Yeah WCS AM not biggest success, but I thought everyone was really happy about how WCS EU turned out. for KR not much of a change.
Also no idea what happened with bnet that apparantly is so horrible, but if you hate it so much, then you don't watch anyway. So how does it affect you again?
People are just finding things to hate on. The only problem with the new WCS system is that it took far too long for Blizzard to implement in AM and EU, especially when you consider how much money was thrown at the first gsl qualifiers and how this could have been distributed to the other regions more. But back then Kr was still Blizzard's favorite.
As for Bnet, laddering is great but everything else continues to be bland and empty. It still feels very lonely, the complete opposite of WC3 and Age Of Empires 2 at it's height.
On July 23 2013 18:10 SkelA wrote: TI2 made me switch 100% from watching BW/SC2 last year and I regret nothing seeing what happened with SC2 and blizzard in general.
What happened to SC2 and blizzard in general?
the new wcs system happened. bnet0.2. do i need to continue?
Yes. Throw all your fellings (Hate), it can make you feel better.
On July 23 2013 18:10 SkelA wrote: TI2 made me switch 100% from watching BW/SC2 last year and I regret nothing seeing what happened with SC2 and blizzard in general.
What happened to SC2 and blizzard in general?
the new wcs system happened. bnet0.2. do i need to continue?
Yes. Throw all your fellings (Hate), it can make you feel better.
For some people, it's a much more bitter disappointment. Why is that so hard to understand? They have a game they love but the developer does nothing but fuck up (or at least that's what they think). Would you not be pissed?
I've never watched dota, I have deactivated all dota related stuff on TL, so for me the whole thing is no big deal. But it really, really sucks for people who love both games. What the hell was Blizzard thinking? They'll definitely lose viewers during the times TI will be on.
On July 23 2013 04:45 theacox wrote: I would love it if valve ran Sc2 holy shit it would be amazing.
Yeah, ask the CS community about that. Dota 2 lives and dies with Gabe. Last time I checked he was still obese.
You realy seem like a hater. In the end there will be people competing for over $2,6 Million, so real esports guys will watch the bigger event.
I just prefer watching games that require a bit more skill. I felt the same thing about WoW when it was huge. I didn't watch the million dollar Painkiller tournament either nor CoD.
So you think that CS requires more skill that dota 2? Or are you just trolling at this point?
CS, Quake, Starcraft etc all requires more skill than dota ever did. Dota was made for people that found Warcraft 3 too challenging.
You realy realy should learn how to troll right, you can't even touch anyone who plays Dota with this kind of arguments and even if you are sincere, it is sad, that people think the way you do. Not even pathetic, just said.
The complexity of Dota lies not only in the mechanical skills but also in the teamchemistry, the leadership and the social competence of a player. A Player can contribute on so many levels, but it seems you don't want to see this way of playing.
Not even taking sides but what you're saying is outright stupid, you say his way of thinking is sad yet what you say looks like it doesnt require team chemistry, leadership and social competence in CS.
On July 23 2013 19:47 virpi wrote: I've never watched dota, I have deactivated all dota related stuff on TL, so for me the whole thing is no big deal. But it really, really sucks for people who love both games. What the hell was Blizzard thinking? They'll definitely lose viewers during the times TI will be on.
One of the main concern of this stunt is the twitch servers. Last year, TI2 reached over 500.000 concurrent viewers, and this year it is a lot bigger considering hype, prizepool, anticipation and the fact that the game was officially released and opened to a lot more people.
So the twitch servers will have to deal with additional hundred of thousands of viewers during the finals. And where the Dota community can watch through the Dota client, SC community has no such luxury.
Even if you don't want to watch Dota, you should take offense from this poor planning from Blizzard.
On July 23 2013 19:47 virpi wrote: I've never watched dota, I have deactivated all dota related stuff on TL, so for me the whole thing is no big deal. But it really, really sucks for people who love both games. What the hell was Blizzard thinking? They'll definitely lose viewers during the times TI will be on.
Even if you don't want to watch Dota, you should take offense from this poor planning from Blizzard.
The key part is that if your not offended, you need to change that. You should also be disgusted, disappointed and a bunch of other words people use to complain on TL with. If you think everything is fine, you need to update your standards until you are offended to a sufficient level to post about it.
On July 23 2013 04:45 theacox wrote: I would love it if valve ran Sc2 holy shit it would be amazing.
Yeah, ask the CS community about that. Dota 2 lives and dies with Gabe. Last time I checked he was still obese.
You realy seem like a hater. In the end there will be people competing for over $2,6 Million, so real esports guys will watch the bigger event.
I just prefer watching games that require a bit more skill. I felt the same thing about WoW when it was huge. I didn't watch the million dollar Painkiller tournament either nor CoD.
So you think that CS requires more skill that dota 2? Or are you just trolling at this point?
CS, Quake, Starcraft etc all requires more skill than dota ever did. Dota was made for people that found Warcraft 3 too challenging.
You realy realy should learn how to troll right, you can't even touch anyone who plays Dota with this kind of arguments and even if you are sincere, it is sad, that people think the way you do. Not even pathetic, just said.
The complexity of Dota lies not only in the mechanical skills but also in the teamchemistry, the leadership and the social competence of a player. A Player can contribute on so many levels, but it seems you don't want to see this way of playing.
Not even taking sides but what you're saying is outright stupid, you say his way of thinking is sad yet what you say looks like it doesnt require team chemistry, leadership and social competence in CS.
But not in quake and Sc2 or COD, which was obviously the thing i had a problem with. If you could not understand that i have to apologize for not being clear as crystal in the first place.
Blizzard is not the company it used to be. Some people need to be fired and new folks hired. This is not working. Even if i prefer SC2 over dota, i'm now playing and watching it just because of how awesomely everything around the game is set up.
On July 23 2013 19:47 virpi wrote: I've never watched dota, I have deactivated all dota related stuff on TL, so for me the whole thing is no big deal. But it really, really sucks for people who love both games. What the hell was Blizzard thinking? They'll definitely lose viewers during the times TI will be on.
Even if you don't want to watch Dota, you should take offense from this poor planning from Blizzard.
The key part is that if your not offended, you need to change that. You should also be disgusted, disappointed and a bunch of other words people use to complain on TL with. If you think everything is fine, you need to update your standards until you are offended to a sufficient level to post about it.
Do you have to turn into a prick every single time people disagree with your opinion?
On July 23 2013 18:10 SkelA wrote: TI2 made me switch 100% from watching BW/SC2 last year and I regret nothing seeing what happened with SC2 and blizzard in general.
What happened to SC2 and blizzard in general?
the new wcs system happened. bnet0.2. do i need to continue?
Yes. Throw all your fellings (Hate), it can make you feel better.
For some people, it's a much more bitter disappointment. Why is that so hard to understand? They have a game they love but the developer does nothing but fuck up (or at least that's what they think). Would you not be pissed?
it's unfortunate Blizzard placed a major WCS weekend on the same weekend as TI3. However, WCS was clearly slammed together in a hurried and haphazard fashion. I can understand why people are not happy, but they should not be surprised.
none of this stops you from "loving the game". the most fun for me is getting together in "rl" with 3 friends and playing 2v2s while yelling and screaming at each other. Blizzard could cancel the WCS and we'll still have a great time.
On July 23 2013 19:47 virpi wrote: I've never watched dota, I have deactivated all dota related stuff on TL, so for me the whole thing is no big deal. But it really, really sucks for people who love both games. What the hell was Blizzard thinking? They'll definitely lose viewers during the times TI will be on.
Even if you don't want to watch Dota, you should take offense from this poor planning from Blizzard.
The key part is that if your not offended, you need to change that. You should also be disgusted, disappointed and a bunch of other words people use to complain on TL with. If you think everything is fine, you need to update your standards until you are offended to a sufficient level to post about it.
Do you have to turn into a prick every single time people disagree with your opinion?
No, I rarely do at all. I do get snippy in response to the dog piling that happens on the internet whenever something like this happens. The amount of "internet outrage" gets tiresome and TL seems really prone to it, more so that other communities I am part of. I also get tired of community figures running to reddit and TL posting their outrage, only furthering the drama.
On July 23 2013 18:10 SkelA wrote: TI2 made me switch 100% from watching BW/SC2 last year and I regret nothing seeing what happened with SC2 and blizzard in general.
What happened to SC2 and blizzard in general?
the new wcs system happened. bnet0.2. do i need to continue?
Yes. Throw all your fellings (Hate), it can make you feel better.
For some people, it's a much more bitter disappointment. Why is that so hard to understand? They have a game they love but the developer does nothing but fuck up (or at least that's what they think). Would you not be pissed?
it's unfortunate Blizzard placed a major WCS weekend on the same weekend as TI3. However, WCS was clearly slammed together in a hurried and haphazard fashion. I can understand why people are not happy, but they should not be surprised.
Oh I definitely agree with that, and like I said in a previous post I also think they made the best they could out of the situation they were in. But at the same time, they deserve every single bit of the flak they get for mismanaging the WCS to the point where it *has* gotten to this situation. They did that themselves when they half-assedly hamfisted the WCS in. They promised the biggest thing in SC2 (which it definitely has the potential to be) and yet they deliver nothing but failure after failure. I think the community has the right to voice concerns and dismay, and while many of the posters here are ignorant of the subtleties and intricacies of the situation, it's still unfair and childish to dismiss every complaint as doomsaying and whining.
On July 23 2013 18:10 SkelA wrote: TI2 made me switch 100% from watching BW/SC2 last year and I regret nothing seeing what happened with SC2 and blizzard in general.
What happened to SC2 and blizzard in general?
the new wcs system happened. bnet0.2. do i need to continue?
Yes. Throw all your fellings (Hate), it can make you feel better.
For some people, it's a much more bitter disappointment. Why is that so hard to understand? They have a game they love but the developer does nothing but fuck up (or at least that's what they think). Would you not be pissed?
it's unfortunate Blizzard placed a major WCS weekend on the same weekend as TI3. However, WCS was clearly slammed together in a hurried and haphazard fashion. I can understand why people are not happy, but they should not be surprised.
none of this stops you from "loving the game". the most fun for me is getting together in "rl" with 3 friends and playing 2v2s while yelling and screaming at each other. Blizzard could cancel the WCS and we'll still have a great time.
the wcs is much better organized than people make it out to be.3 wcs regions finals at the same time might be just a new idea blizzard was trying out to create a sort of marathon just like at hots launch.The overlap with ti3 is unfortunate but just as many comentators here pointed out they did not have enough time between regionals and gamesconfinals.Too many sc2 tournies.Which is in fact no excuse but still beside the fact with the overlap I think it is quite interesting to have a 2 day sc marathon with one regional final hyping out the next.
@plansix
totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group
On July 23 2013 19:47 virpi wrote: I've never watched dota, I have deactivated all dota related stuff on TL, so for me the whole thing is no big deal. But it really, really sucks for people who love both games. What the hell was Blizzard thinking? They'll definitely lose viewers during the times TI will be on.
Even if you don't want to watch Dota, you should take offense from this poor planning from Blizzard.
The key part is that if your not offended, you need to change that. You should also be disgusted, disappointed and a bunch of other words people use to complain on TL with. If you think everything is fine, you need to update your standards until you are offended to a sufficient level to post about it.
Do you have to turn into a prick every single time people disagree with your opinion?
No, I rarely do at all. I do get snippy in response to the dog piling that happens on the internet whenever something like this happens. The amount of "internet outrage" gets tiresome and TL seems really prone to it, more so that other communities I am part of. I also get tired of community figures running to reddit and TL posting their outrage, only furthering the drama.
We get it. You're a Fonzie-tier cool guy and this doesn't concern you. We really get it. But some people are passionate about SC2. They really like the game, and they like the competition, the proscene. They love it. Take one step back and consider that maybe some of these people don't like to see the object of their passion getting shit on by the sheer incompetence of the people supposedly in charge of it. Consider that maybe they don't want to see it run into the ground. And now double that disappointment when they see a developer like Valve do pretty much everything right when it comes to managing their game and keeping their community pleased, at least as regards DotA 2.
I want you to empathize with these people for a bit. Yeah, there are people who have no idea what they're talking about and yeah there are a few who do nothing but jump on bandwagons. But I want you to stop for a second and understand that Blizzard has been doing nothing but shitting on passionate fans' dreams and joy for the last handful of years. It doesn't matter to you, but to those fans it matters.
On July 23 2013 18:10 SkelA wrote: TI2 made me switch 100% from watching BW/SC2 last year and I regret nothing seeing what happened with SC2 and blizzard in general.
What happened to SC2 and blizzard in general?
the new wcs system happened. bnet0.2. do i need to continue?
Yes. Throw all your fellings (Hate), it can make you feel better.
For some people, it's a much more bitter disappointment. Why is that so hard to understand? They have a game they love but the developer does nothing but fuck up (or at least that's what they think). Would you not be pissed?
it's unfortunate Blizzard placed a major WCS weekend on the same weekend as TI3. However, WCS was clearly slammed together in a hurried and haphazard fashion. I can understand why people are not happy, but they should not be surprised.
none of this stops you from "loving the game". the most fun for me is getting together in "rl" with 3 friends and playing 2v2s while yelling and screaming at each other. Blizzard could cancel the WCS and we'll still have a great time.
the wcs is much better organized than people make it out to be.3 wcs regions finals at the same time might be just a new idea blizzard was trying out to create a sort of marathon just like at hots launch.The overlap with ti3 is unfortunate but just as many comentators here pointed out they did not have enough time between regionals and gamesconfinals.Too many sc2 tournies.Which is in fact no excuse but still beside the fact with the overlap I think it is quite interesting to have a 2 day sc marathon with one regional final hyping out the next.
@plansix
totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group
I think they are doing the best with the hand they are dealt. I looked at GOM schedule too and they seem full up on World of Tanks stuff for the rest of that month, with gamescon-finals, World of Tanks NA finals for NASL and other things, I don’t think there was ever going to be room in August. I don’t know what Riot is doing, but their season of LCS also wraps up on the August 18th, so they would be running something shortly after that too. Its not ideal, but it is only one season finals. As long as Riot doesn’t set their LCS world finals the same weekend as Blizzcon, I think SC2 will have a great finals in November.
I like TB a lot and he is a great member of the community. But I rarely pay attention to any of his first impressions on twitter, since he is prone to commenting without looking into details. He is really good once he has all the information, but he loves to comment without it. Incontrol(god bless the big guy) is also prone to doing that stuff without talking to people. Really, I just want everyone to be Artosis and be understated until its time to comment and then rip into people if necessary.
Why is this community only whining... For once i'll give a chance... let's see what Blizzard has to show us and maybe complain after... why not keep calm and give a chance? I understand the Dota2 issue, but there are so many tournaments nowadays that it would have been in the same time than an other event anyway, LoL or so.... I love that game and I'll give a chance to be amazed by the WCS. Cheer up everyone. ...... .. ... AND ROOT4ROOT !!!
Well, I would have probably watched at least some of WCS with some friends if it wasn't conflicting with TI3. But since it is, we'll all be watching TI3 instead.
Hopefully Blizzard learns a lesson from this (and hopefully they somehow learn that lesson before this actually happens, so they can change the scheduling).
On July 23 2013 22:25 MarkyMark69 wrote: Why is this community only whining... For once i'll give a chance... let's see what Blizzard has to show us and maybe complain after... why not keep calm and give a chance? I understand the Dota2 issue, but there are so many tournaments nowadays that it would have been in the same time than an other event anyway, LoL or so.... I love that game and I'll give a chance to be amazed by the WCS. Cheer up everyone. ...... .. ... AND ROOT4ROOT !!!
The thing is, this is THE Dota tournament. It happens once a year. There aren't "so many tournaments nowadays that they can't avoid this". There's one tournament they needed to avoid. And they didn't.
Also, a ton of people won't actually be seeing what Blizzard has to show us, because they'll be watching TI3 instead. There are a TON of people who enjoy/follow both games.
" it's nearly impossible to avoid all conflicts. Many major weekend events already host multiple games, which are running simultaneous game streams in conflict with each other."
Then Blizzard should at least be wise enough to ensure their premier product does not go up against TI3. TI3 is not a random Starladder or something. TI3 is going to absolutely decimate WCS's viewership, and they have a client in which people can watch from, and a backup stream @ Youtube for whenever twitch inevitably dies horribly.
So now Blizzard should care about Dota 2 tournaments as well ? That is complete nonsense. It is hard enough to dodge all of the big SC2 tournaments... Now you want from them to dodge TI3, whats next ? LCS ? What about not doing tournaments at all, because there is so much tournaments for the other games ? If you want to watch TI3 - watch TI3, if you want to watch SC2 - watch WCS. Yes, it's that easy.
Guess what... On the same dates a round of the bulgarian football league is played. I don't thing that any eSports tournament should overlap with that. Cancel all the tournaments now !!!
On July 23 2013 22:26 Angra wrote: Well, I would have probably watched at least some of WCS with some friends if it wasn't conflicting with TI3. But since it is, we'll all be watching TI3 instead.
Hopefully Blizzard learns a lesson from this (and hopefully they somehow learn that lesson before this actually happens, so they can change the scheduling).
On July 23 2013 22:25 MarkyMark69 wrote: Why is this community only whining... For once i'll give a chance... let's see what Blizzard has to show us and maybe complain after... why not keep calm and give a chance? I understand the Dota2 issue, but there are so many tournaments nowadays that it would have been in the same time than an other event anyway, LoL or so.... I love that game and I'll give a chance to be amazed by the WCS. Cheer up everyone. ...... .. ... AND ROOT4ROOT !!!
The thing is, this is THE Dota tournament. It happens once a year. There aren't "so many tournaments nowadays that they can't avoid this". There's one tournament they needed to avoid. And they didn't.
Also, a ton of people won't actually be seeing what Blizzard has to show us, because they'll be watching TI3 instead. There are a TON of people who enjoy/follow both games.
Well sir, that's a point of view I havn't really thought about... I kindda agree with you suddenly ... haha..
On July 23 2013 19:47 virpi wrote: I've never watched dota, I have deactivated all dota related stuff on TL, so for me the whole thing is no big deal. But it really, really sucks for people who love both games. What the hell was Blizzard thinking? They'll definitely lose viewers during the times TI will be on.
Even if you don't want to watch Dota, you should take offense from this poor planning from Blizzard.
The key part is that if your not offended, you need to change that. You should also be disgusted, disappointed and a bunch of other words people use to complain on TL with. If you think everything is fine, you need to update your standards until you are offended to a sufficient level to post about it.
Do you have to turn into a prick every single time people disagree with your opinion?
No, I rarely do at all. I do get snippy in response to the dog piling that happens on the internet whenever something like this happens. The amount of "internet outrage" gets tiresome and TL seems really prone to it, more so that other communities I am part of. I also get tired of community figures running to reddit and TL posting their outrage, only furthering the drama.
We get it. You're a Fonzie-tier cool guy and this doesn't concern you. We really get it. But some people are passionate about SC2. They really like the game, and they like the competition, the proscene. They love it. Take one step back and consider that maybe some of these people don't like to see the object of their passion getting shit on by the sheer incompetence of the people supposedly in charge of it. Consider that maybe they don't want to see it run into the ground. And now double that disappointment when they see a developer like Valve do pretty much everything right when it comes to managing their game and keeping their community pleased, at least as regards DotA 2.
I want you to empathize with these people for a bit. Yeah, there are people who have no idea what they're talking about and yeah there are a few who do nothing but jump on bandwagons. But I want you to stop for a second and understand that Blizzard has been doing nothing but shitting on passionate fans' dreams and joy for the last handful of years. It doesn't matter to you, but to those fans it matters.
I would love for WCS to have its own weekend and it’s a bummer that its on the same weekend at TI3. But that’s it, it is a bummer, nothing more. I can and will watch both with style, and catch up on what I missed during the down time. If you read this thread without the context, someone could believe that Blizzard had canceled all of WCS or told everyone they could no longer stream SC2 on twitch. I get that people are upset, but the level of outrage and anger over a conflict of schedule that can’t be avoided is surreal.
Edit: For those saying that Blizzard should pick any other weekend, they can't do that because the production crews(GOM, ELS and NASL) all have other events and finals they are working on the other weekends.
On July 23 2013 22:29 Resilient wrote: " it's nearly impossible to avoid all conflicts. Many major weekend events already host multiple games, which are running simultaneous game streams in conflict with each other."
Then Blizzard should at least be wise enough to ensure their premier product does not go up against TI3. TI3 is not a random Starladder or something. TI3 is going to absolutely decimate WCS's viewership, and they have a client in which people can watch from, and a backup stream @ Youtube for whenever twitch inevitably dies horribly.
So they should instead screw over one of their partners by planning it during their tournaments? Sounds also like a great business model.
Anyway WCS AM had bad viewership anyway, depending on the time the matches for both are played WCS EU shouldn't overlap too much anyway.
On July 23 2013 19:47 virpi wrote: I've never watched dota, I have deactivated all dota related stuff on TL, so for me the whole thing is no big deal. But it really, really sucks for people who love both games. What the hell was Blizzard thinking? They'll definitely lose viewers during the times TI will be on.
Even if you don't want to watch Dota, you should take offense from this poor planning from Blizzard.
The key part is that if your not offended, you need to change that. You should also be disgusted, disappointed and a bunch of other words people use to complain on TL with. If you think everything is fine, you need to update your standards until you are offended to a sufficient level to post about it.
Do you have to turn into a prick every single time people disagree with your opinion?
No, I rarely do at all. I do get snippy in response to the dog piling that happens on the internet whenever something like this happens. The amount of "internet outrage" gets tiresome and TL seems really prone to it, more so that other communities I am part of. I also get tired of community figures running to reddit and TL posting their outrage, only furthering the drama.
We get it. You're a Fonzie-tier cool guy and this doesn't concern you. We really get it. But some people are passionate about SC2. They really like the game, and they like the competition, the proscene. They love it. Take one step back and consider that maybe some of these people don't like to see the object of their passion getting shit on by the sheer incompetence of the people supposedly in charge of it. Consider that maybe they don't want to see it run into the ground. And now double that disappointment when they see a developer like Valve do pretty much everything right when it comes to managing their game and keeping their community pleased, at least as regards DotA 2.
I want you to empathize with these people for a bit. Yeah, there are people who have no idea what they're talking about and yeah there are a few who do nothing but jump on bandwagons. But I want you to stop for a second and understand that Blizzard has been doing nothing but shitting on passionate fans' dreams and joy for the last handful of years. It doesn't matter to you, but to those fans it matters.
I would love for WCS to have its own weekend and it’s a bummer that its on the same weekend at TI3. But that’s it, it is a bummer, nothing more. I can and will watch both with style, and catch up on what I missed during the down time. If you read this thread without the context, someone could believe that Blizzard had canceled all of WCS or told everyone they could no longer stream SC2 on twitch. I get that people are upset, but the level of outrage and anger over a conflict of schedule that can’t be avoided is surreal.
Again. You need to understand that some people care more than you do. It's really as simple as that. There's no argument to be won here, just different opinions.
On July 23 2013 22:30 Pr0wler wrote: So now Blizzard should care about Dota 2 tournaments as well ? That is complete nonsense. It is hard enough to dodge all of the big SC2 tournaments... Now you want from them to dodge TI3, whats next ? LCS ? What about not doing tournaments at all, because there is so much tournaments for the other games ? If you want to watch TI3 - watch TI3, if you want to watch SC2 - watch WCS. Yes, it's that easy.
Guess what... On the same dates a round of the bulgarian football league is played. I don't thing that any eSports tournament should overlap with that. Cancel all the tournaments now !!!
I don't think you understand the point here. All 3 WCS are going on the same weekend, which is bad enough. Then you have Dota's World Cup/Superbowl/Wimbledon etc etc to compete with too.
The numbers WCS is going to get are going to be a tiny fraction of what they would get on literally any other weekend. You do NOT compete with TI3.
so in fact you guys are worried that the numbers are going to be low? what difference does it make to you if theres 50k watching or 10k ? the games are not going to be of less quality because there's less people watching. i guess it's the "the sky is falling"-mentality all over again.
the only concern i understand is from people who would love to watch both events. but the sky wont fall and blizzard didn't kill sc2 because the sc2 stream is missing 50% of it's viewers because there's TI3 on
On July 23 2013 22:30 Pr0wler wrote: So now Blizzard should care about Dota 2 tournaments as well ? That is complete nonsense. It is hard enough to dodge all of the big SC2 tournaments... Now you want from them to dodge TI3, whats next ? LCS ? What about not doing tournaments at all, because there is so much tournaments for the other games ? If you want to watch TI3 - watch TI3, if you want to watch SC2 - watch WCS. Yes, it's that easy.
Guess what... On the same dates a round of the bulgarian football league is played. I don't thing that any eSports tournament should overlap with that. Cancel all the tournaments now !!!
I don't think you understand the point here. All 3 WCS are going on the same weekend, which is bad enough. Then you have Dota's World Cup/Superbowl/Wimbledon etc etc to compete with too.
The numbers WCS is going to get are going to be a tiny fraction of what they would get on literally any other weekend. You do NOT compete with TI3.
hmmm not really.NA wasnt getting good numbers in the first place and until they introduce the studio qualifiers from next it year to eliminate the code a koreans they will not get good numbers.Korea is sort of independent of dota2.OGN is a big live television which gets most of its money and viewers from korea.They do not care that much about foreign viewership.The only issue might be in eu but eu fans have proven that even in overlapping events such as lcs overlapping other sc2 tournies they still watch in large numbers.
On July 23 2013 22:30 Pr0wler wrote: So now Blizzard should care about Dota 2 tournaments as well ? That is complete nonsense. It is hard enough to dodge all of the big SC2 tournaments... Now you want from them to dodge TI3, whats next ? LCS ? What about not doing tournaments at all, because there is so much tournaments for the other games ? If you want to watch TI3 - watch TI3, if you want to watch SC2 - watch WCS. Yes, it's that easy.
Guess what... On the same dates a round of the bulgarian football league is played. I don't thing that any eSports tournament should overlap with that. Cancel all the tournaments now !!!
I don't think you understand the point here. All 3 WCS are going on the same weekend, which is bad enough. Then you have Dota's World Cup/Superbowl/Wimbledon etc etc to compete with too.
The numbers WCS is going to get are going to be a tiny fraction of what they would get on literally any other weekend. You do NOT compete with TI3.
First of all I can't understand why all 3 WCS on same weekend is bad. It's not like they will overlap. Second - Forgive me that, but I must say that "Dota's World Cup" is nothing close to Superbowl/Wimbledon or even the Voleyball world cup... And third - I don't think that Blizzard should care about Dota 2. As I said, it's hard enough to dodge everything SC2.
Personally I will watch both streams and some football on the TV(Yeah sick multitasking )... Sounds like a great weekend to me, I don't know why everyone is freaking out.
On July 23 2013 22:43 ratbert wrote: so in fact you guys are worried that the numbers are going to be low? what difference does it make to you if theres 50k watching or 10k ? the games are not going to be of less quality because there's less people watching. i guess it's the "the sky is falling"-mentality all over again.
the only concern i understand is from people who would love to watch both events. but the sky wont fall and blizzard didn't kill sc2 because the sc2 stream is missing 50% of it's viewers because there's TI3 on
Low viewership might not matter to you, but it matters to Blizzard and more importantly, sponsors of teams, tournaments and in general, the scene. If WCS, Blizzard's premier tournament gets embarassed by TI3 (they already are with this PR nonsense) then there will be less investment in the scene. Even Riot, the most egotistical company around were smart enough to schedule around TI3, their biggest rival. Blizard not doing the same is the same as falling on your sword.
On July 23 2013 22:43 ratbert wrote: so in fact you guys are worried that the numbers are going to be low? what difference does it make to you if theres 50k watching or 10k ? the games are not going to be of less quality because there's less people watching. i guess it's the "the sky is falling"-mentality all over again.
the only concern i understand is from people who would love to watch both events. but the sky wont fall and blizzard didn't kill sc2 because the sc2 stream is missing 50% of it's viewers because there's TI3 on
Hahaha what. Don't you understand the one thing that makes this scene sustainable is viewership? No sponsor is going to want to get involved if your regional finals only pull 10k, while that "other major eSports event" pulls 500k+.
On July 23 2013 22:43 ratbert wrote: so in fact you guys are worried that the numbers are going to be low? what difference does it make to you if theres 50k watching or 10k ? the games are not going to be of less quality because there's less people watching. i guess it's the "the sky is falling"-mentality all over again.
the only concern i understand is from people who would love to watch both events. but the sky wont fall and blizzard didn't kill sc2 because the sc2 stream is missing 50% of it's viewers because there's TI3 on
Low viewership might not matter to you, but it matters to Blizzard and more importantly, sponsors of teams, tournaments and in general, the scene. If WCS, Blizzard's premier tournament gets embarassed by TI3 (they already are with this PR nonsense) then there will be less investment in the scene. Even Riot, the most egotistical company around were smart enough to schedule around TI3, their biggest rival. Blizard not doing the same is the same as falling on your sword.
Viewership matters. A lot.
I think most sponsors already have a realistic view of sc2 and dota 2 numbers.They also know the international 3 is the most important esports event of the year.Nobody actually expects any sc2 event to make bigger numbers than the international.Do not think it matters that much really.What difference does it make if The international gets 1 mil views on one weekend and sc2 gets 200k the next weekend or if the international gets 1 mil views on the same weekend sc2 gets 200k views.Same stuff really.We will see the viewership numbers and only then make a judgement
@ch33p33p
actually money made from casualfans is the thing that keeps the proscenes alive since it gives companies money to invest in the proscene.Viewership matters but not as much as companies investing in the came.World of tanks/call of duty are good examples.Activision has I think I have seen somewhere has more money invested in the proscene than blizzard and they only get viewers in the USA during mlg.And even then they lag behind sc2. But cod sells a lot so activision can afford a proscene
After shooting themselves in the foot, they proceed to rub salt into it themselves and pour kerosene and lit it on fire.
Just admit that you fucked up and man up for it instead of finding excuses. TI3 schedule was released almost half a year ago doods. It sucks so much for people who have been following WCS games and now are gonna completely miss out on watching it LIVE because of either going to TI3 or watching TI3. SIGH FKING SIGH.
Edit: For those saying that Blizzard should pick any other weekend, they can't do that because the production crews(GOM, ELS and NASL) all have other events and finals they are working on the other weekends.
You are saying its sensible because its the only free weekend. But its the only free weekend because nobody else was dumb enough to clash with TI3. Also it wouldnt be the only free weekend if Blizzard planned far enough ahead and didnt leave it to the last minute.
Edit: This is the equivalent of someones fiance luckily finding a free weekend earlier than they expected for their wedding and it just so happens to clash with the world cup final.
Edit: For those saying that Blizzard should pick any other weekend, they can't do that because the production crews(GOM, ELS and NASL) all have other events and finals they are working on the other weekends.
You are saying its sensible because its the only free weekend. But its the only free weekend because nobody else was dumb enough to clash with TI3. Also it wouldnt be the only free weekend if Blizzard planned far enough ahead and didnt leave it to the last minute.
I am not saying is sensible or ideal. Clearly this is a product of WCS being delayed for so long and the groups involved not having enough time or a clear plan for the entire year. It is Blizzards fault due to the delay and that it took them so long to get GOM and OGN to work together back when WCS was started. Its not ideal or great in any fashion, but there are not a lot of options due to an overloaded August. But just because it isn’t ideal, doesn’t mean it is a massive, unforgivable failure that will sink SC2, WCS and every SC2 team all at once. Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
Also, the world finals for season 2 is 2 weeks later at Gamescon. So they need to get this done ASAP.
I just randomly scanned the thread, but it seems to be 30 pages of "WCS is screwed, they should not go against TI3". Why is everyone here suddenly so full of DOTA? Is it because it is newer and shinier? And why are there so many people so crazy about not missing some DOTA tourney on a starcraft website? I sure as hell won't miss WCS finals for some other game! (I might, honestly, miss it for birdwatching or going to the mountains, though.)
I say, TI3 is screwed, now it has to compete for viewers with THREE FUCKING WCS FINALS. I woudln't really want to be the organizer ot TI3 after this announcement.
On July 23 2013 23:51 opisska wrote: I just randomly scanned the thread, but it seems to be 30 pages of "WCS is screwed, they should not go against TI3". Why is everyone here suddenly so full of DOTA? Is it because it is newer and shinier? And why are there so many people so crazy about not missing some DOTA tourney on a starcraft website? I sure as hell won't miss WCS finals for some other game! (I might, honestly, miss it for birdwatching or going to the mountains, though.)
I say, TI3 is screwed, now it has to compete for viewers with THREE FUCKING WCS FINALS. I woudln't really want to be the organizer ot TI3 after this announcement.
Lol... I would be surprised if any of the WCS that run during TI3 get over 40k viewers... Or if Twitch wold actually not just break down...
They could have picked literally every weekend of the year and it would still have been a better decision than to do this on the weekend TI3 is played. Like even parallel to the Superbowl would have been better.
I'm equally a Sc2 and Dota 2 fan but no way in hell i'm going to miss out on TI3, so good luck with that decision Blizz...
On July 23 2013 23:51 opisska wrote: I just randomly scanned the thread, but it seems to be 30 pages of "WCS is screwed, they should not go against TI3". Why is everyone here suddenly so full of DOTA? Is it because it is newer and shinier? And why are there so many people so crazy about not missing some DOTA tourney on a starcraft website? I sure as hell won't miss WCS finals for some other game! (I might, honestly, miss it for birdwatching or going to the mountains, though.)
I say, TI3 is screwed, now it has to compete for viewers with THREE FUCKING WCS FINALS. I woudln't really want to be the organizer ot TI3 after this announcement.
On July 23 2013 23:51 opisska wrote: I just randomly scanned the thread, but it seems to be 30 pages of "WCS is screwed, they should not go against TI3". Why is everyone here suddenly so full of DOTA? Is it because it is newer and shinier? And why are there so many people so crazy about not missing some DOTA tourney on a starcraft website? I sure as hell won't miss WCS finals for some other game! (I might, honestly, miss it for birdwatching or going to the mountains, though.)
I say, TI3 is screwed, now it has to compete for viewers with THREE FUCKING WCS FINALS. I woudln't really want to be the organizer ot TI3 after this announcement.
On July 23 2013 23:51 opisska wrote: I just randomly scanned the thread, but it seems to be 30 pages of "WCS is screwed, they should not go against TI3". Why is everyone here suddenly so full of DOTA? Is it because it is newer and shinier? And why are there so many people so crazy about not missing some DOTA tourney on a starcraft website? I sure as hell won't miss WCS finals for some other game! (I might, honestly, miss it for birdwatching or going to the mountains, though.)
I say, TI3 is screwed, now it has to compete for viewers with THREE FUCKING WCS FINALS. I woudln't really want to be the organizer ot TI3 after this announcement.
Lot of Dota viewers used to be sc2 viewers aswell. Everyone I know that played master league ~ level when sc2 came out is playing dota 2 now, and some still watches sc2. Hell even this website took that direction, because even if you say it's a starcraft website, teamliquid is just as much a dota 2 website, and even has their own sponsored team attending TI.
The problem is that absolutely zero of them will sacrifice TI to watch wcs finals, even if there's supposely the best players and best games. They might have done it any other day/week/weekend, but anyone that watched TI2 last year knows how fucking good that event was, and this year will only get better when the community alone gave another 4 million dollars to valve.
Dota2 has a pretty huge viewersbase, and you're losing out on all of them if you schedule it again TI.
On July 23 2013 22:43 ratbert wrote: so in fact you guys are worried that the numbers are going to be low? what difference does it make to you if theres 50k watching or 10k ? the games are not going to be of less quality because there's less people watching. i guess it's the "the sky is falling"-mentality all over again.
the only concern i understand is from people who would love to watch both events. but the sky wont fall and blizzard didn't kill sc2 because the sc2 stream is missing 50% of it's viewers because there's TI3 on
A lot of the perceived quality of matches is about the hype around them. This is especially true for SC2.
On July 23 2013 23:51 opisska wrote: I just randomly scanned the thread, but it seems to be 30 pages of "WCS is screwed, they should not go against TI3". Why is everyone here suddenly so full of DOTA? Is it because it is newer and shinier? And why are there so many people so crazy about not missing some DOTA tourney on a starcraft website? I sure as hell won't miss WCS finals for some other game! (I might, honestly, miss it for birdwatching or going to the mountains, though.)
I say, TI3 is screwed, now it has to compete for viewers with THREE FUCKING WCS FINALS. I woudln't really want to be the organizer ot TI3 after this announcement.
On July 23 2013 23:51 opisska wrote: I just randomly scanned the thread, but it seems to be 30 pages of "WCS is screwed, they should not go against TI3". Why is everyone here suddenly so full of DOTA? Is it because it is newer and shinier? And why are there so many people so crazy about not missing some DOTA tourney on a starcraft website? I sure as hell won't miss WCS finals for some other game! (I might, honestly, miss it for birdwatching or going to the mountains, though.)
I say, TI3 is screwed, now it has to compete for viewers with THREE FUCKING WCS FINALS. I woudln't really want to be the organizer ot TI3 after this announcement.
Erm... The Internationals is pretty big and unique, with one occurence a year, while the WCS happen multiple time in the year, is split in multiple regions with different level of hype ( with KR > EU >>>> AM it seems).
So I wouldn't be so worried about TI3... I do think it will be a bit more successful than WCS...
On July 23 2013 23:51 opisska wrote: I just randomly scanned the thread, but it seems to be 30 pages of "WCS is screwed, they should not go against TI3". Why is everyone here suddenly so full of DOTA? Is it because it is newer and shinier? And why are there so many people so crazy about not missing some DOTA tourney on a starcraft website? I sure as hell won't miss WCS finals for some other game! (I might, honestly, miss it for birdwatching or going to the mountains, though.)
I say, TI3 is screwed, now it has to compete for viewers with THREE FUCKING WCS FINALS. I woudln't really want to be the organizer ot TI3 after this announcement.
Kim Pham? is that you?
He certainly is a phan.
No phan intended
Though from his post and onward, shit hit the phan.
On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote: Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
y i agree, i dont care how big the prizepool of dota2 is, if i dont enjoy watching D2, i cant watch it, ppl should just watch the game they enjoy viewing, prizepool shouldnt matter
SC2 viewer numbers are already becomming pretty laughable next to those of Dota2 and League of Legends... I think this is a big mistake by Blizz. I'm not even a Dota2 fan/player but I still wanted to watch TI. Honestly, I think I'll still pick that over WCS o.o pretty sure lots of people will.
On July 23 2013 23:51 opisska wrote: I just randomly scanned the thread, but it seems to be 30 pages of "WCS is screwed, they should not go against TI3". Why is everyone here suddenly so full of DOTA? Is it because it is newer and shinier? And why are there so many people so crazy about not missing some DOTA tourney on a starcraft website? I sure as hell won't miss WCS finals for some other game! (I might, honestly, miss it for birdwatching or going to the mountains, though.)
I say, TI3 is screwed, now it has to compete for viewers with THREE FUCKING WCS FINALS. I woudln't really want to be the organizer ot TI3 after this announcement.
You, sir are living under a starcraft rock. WCS/Starcraft will suffer from this incident, not Valve/Dota2
On July 23 2013 23:51 opisska wrote: I just randomly scanned the thread, but it seems to be 30 pages of "WCS is screwed, they should not go against TI3". Why is everyone here suddenly so full of DOTA? Is it because it is newer and shinier? And why are there so many people so crazy about not missing some DOTA tourney on a starcraft website? I sure as hell won't miss WCS finals for some other game! (I might, honestly, miss it for birdwatching or going to the mountains, though.)
I say, TI3 is screwed, now it has to compete for viewers with THREE FUCKING WCS FINALS. I woudln't really want to be the organizer ot TI3 after this announcement.
You, sir are living under a starcraft rock.
There's so many rocks in SC2, no wonder people started living under them.
On July 23 2013 23:51 opisska wrote: I just randomly scanned the thread, but it seems to be 30 pages of "WCS is screwed, they should not go against TI3". Why is everyone here suddenly so full of DOTA? Is it because it is newer and shinier? And why are there so many people so crazy about not missing some DOTA tourney on a starcraft website? I sure as hell won't miss WCS finals for some other game! (I might, honestly, miss it for birdwatching or going to the mountains, though.)
I say, TI3 is screwed, now it has to compete for viewers with THREE FUCKING WCS FINALS. I woudln't really want to be the organizer ot TI3 after this announcement.
You, sir are living under a starcraft rock.
There's so many rocks in SC2, no wonder people started living under them.
Don't worry, they're all destructable. They'll find their way out eventually.
On July 23 2013 23:51 opisska wrote: I just randomly scanned the thread, but it seems to be 30 pages of "WCS is screwed, they should not go against TI3". Why is everyone here suddenly so full of DOTA? Is it because it is newer and shinier? And why are there so many people so crazy about not missing some DOTA tourney on a starcraft website? I sure as hell won't miss WCS finals for some other game! (I might, honestly, miss it for birdwatching or going to the mountains, though.)
I say, TI3 is screwed, now it has to compete for viewers with THREE FUCKING WCS FINALS. I woudln't really want to be the organizer ot TI3 after this announcement.
You, sir are living under a starcraft rock.
There's so many rocks in SC2, no wonder people started living under them.
Until they collapse on you.
To me, this issue's pretty cut and dry. Blizzard screwed up, didn't plan ahead, and has to contest with other SC2 tournaments, so they were forced to rush everything and take the only available weekend (which no other tournament, regardless of eSport, was crazy enough to take). Blizzard messed up, we'll see the repercussions of it in a few weeks. No point in bellyaching now, it's not going to change anything. Could you see OGN switching the date? That's laughable.
dota2 and sc2 and lol were at the same time at dreamhack stockholm.What happened?Record number of stream viewers and a packed house for all 3 games.League of legends and sc2 and cod at the same time at the last mlg.What happened?Record number of viewers and packed house for all 3 games.Countless dota2 tournies running along side sc2 tournies and lol tournies.What happens?Growing number of viewers for all games.Overlapping does not necesasary mean less viewers.Other factors such as entertainment value come into play.I would not be surprised if this years wcs regional finals get more viewers than last years regional wcs finals.Of course people will come and say sc2 is dead since it did not beat the international number of viewers but sponsors and people involved will notice the actual increase in viewership.
On July 23 2013 23:51 opisska wrote: I just randomly scanned the thread, but it seems to be 30 pages of "WCS is screwed, they should not go against TI3". Why is everyone here suddenly so full of DOTA? Is it because it is newer and shinier? And why are there so many people so crazy about not missing some DOTA tourney on a starcraft website? I sure as hell won't miss WCS finals for some other game! (I might, honestly, miss it for birdwatching or going to the mountains, though.)
I say, TI3 is screwed, now it has to compete for viewers with THREE FUCKING WCS FINALS. I woudln't really want to be the organizer ot TI3 after this announcement.
TL hasn't been a SC exclusive site for nearly a year now. And last years International blew anything SC ever had away in terms of viewers, so you're being very, very optimistic.
On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote: Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
On July 23 2013 23:51 opisska wrote: I just randomly scanned the thread, but it seems to be 30 pages of "WCS is screwed, they should not go against TI3". Why is everyone here suddenly so full of DOTA? Is it because it is newer and shinier? And why are there so many people so crazy about not missing some DOTA tourney on a starcraft website? I sure as hell won't miss WCS finals for some other game! (I might, honestly, miss it for birdwatching or going to the mountains, though.)
I say, TI3 is screwed, now it has to compete for viewers with THREE FUCKING WCS FINALS. I woudln't really want to be the organizer ot TI3 after this announcement.
TL hasn't been a SC exclusive site for nearly a year now. And last years International blew anything SC ever had away in terms of viewers, so you're being very, very optimistic.
It is the super bowl of Dota and they do love to make people wait for it. Its also once a year, unlike SC2, which is all year round.
well, its pretty stupid to have to big finals (the dota thing is a finals yes?) at the same time but anyhow, i probably wont watch either, dota is boring anad sc2 meta game makes for a lot of shitty games for me
On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote: Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
It's semantics at this point, but there would be a huge overlap. Everyone watches the Super Bowl. Most golf fans are fans of many other sports. He could have chosen two other events like the NBA Finals and the Super Bowl, but you get his point. Just wondering, are you American? You don't have it listed. I'm just curious.
I absolutely agree with you, it sucks, but I think understanding why makes accepting it a little easier.
I still don't know how representative is this thread of the overall situation. To me it feels full of people who feel some strange need to come here and show everyone how they like DOTA over SC2. Is this really how everyone feels now? Are all those tens of thousands of people watching SC2 only because there is no DOTA at the moment for them? I find that hard to believe. I see this as a kind of a bandwagon: shitting over SC2 has become cool again, so let's do it! Just look at some of the comments subtly and no-so-subtly bashing "quality of matches" in SC2 and whatnot.
OK, let's wait for the actual stream numbers, that will tell us quite a lot - unfortunatelly it will be skewed by having all three WCS on one weekend anyway, so it will not be very easy to disentagle the influence of DOTA. I already don't see myself watching everything (I sleep at 8-10 hours a day and I insist on that) and if I have to choose, it's definitely WCS KR and I am afraid that many people who are hardcore SC2 fans enough to not care about DOTA will feel the same and that can really hurt EU/US ...
On July 24 2013 00:20 {ToT}ColmA wrote: well, its pretty stupid to have to big finals (the dota thing is a finals yes?) at the same time but anyhow, i probably wont watch either, dota is boring anad sc2 meta game makes for a lot of shitty games for me
korean meta is preety exciting.Maru prime/innovation have sick moves.Also in europe le stephano and mvp playstiles make for fun games.Dunno about dota but probably the chinesse teams and navi have interesting playstiles as well.
On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote: Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I think that is true for TL members, but we are only one section of the whole community(maybe the largest). I don't know about the people who love Husky, or the r/starcraft groups. The cross over is huge for TL and the super hardcore players, that is for sure. But I also think the people on TL are just as likely to have two streams open at once.
On July 24 2013 00:21 opisska wrote: I still don't know how representative is this thread of the overall situation. To me it feels full of people who feel some strange need to come here and show everyone how they like DOTA over SC2. Is this really how everyone feels now? Are all those tens of thousands of people watching SC2 only because there is no DOTA at the moment for them? I find that hard to believe. I see this as a kind of a bandwagon: shitting over SC2 has become cool again, so let's do it! Just look at some of the comments subtly and no-so-subtly bashing "quality of matches" in SC2 and whatnot.
OK, let's wait for the actual stream numbers, that will tell us quite a lot - unfortunatelly it will be skewed by having all three WCS on one weekend anyway, so it will not be very easy to disentagle the influence of DOTA. I already don't see myself watching everything (I sleep at 8-10 hours a day and I insist on that) and if I have to choose, it's definitely WCS KR and I am afraid that many people who are hardcore SC2 fans enough to not care about DOTA will feel the same and that can really hurt EU/US ...
Man think about it this way.back in wol days when blizzard did a bad move, the topics used to have anywhere between 100-200 pages of qq/whine/rage.Now this is only a 30 page something topic which is actually a positive thing.So historically blizzard is actually improving..The reddit thread seems to have a bit more comments though but reddit feeds on good drama and unmoderrated trolls so any negative stuff is bound to get more attention there
On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote: Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote: Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
You don't have community websites dedicated to covering both football and golf, but here you have TL heavily invested in both SC2 and Dota.
On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote: Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
Dunno if Blizzard wants to hurt Valve specifically, but to call a dota2 tournament the "Super Bowl of esport" is for sure wrong. Dota2 numbers so far have been far behind those for LoL and SC2. From my point of view, this might be hurting DotA more than SC2, but I understand Blizzard, having trouble to find a date, that doesn't collide with anything. So at least they didn't colide with another big SC2 event
On July 24 2013 00:21 opisska wrote: I still don't know how representative is this thread of the overall situation. To me it feels full of people who feel some strange need to come here and show everyone how they like DOTA over SC2. Is this really how everyone feels now? Are all those tens of thousands of people watching SC2 only because there is no DOTA at the moment for them? I find that hard to believe. I see this as a kind of a bandwagon: shitting over SC2 has become cool again, so let's do it! Just look at some of the comments subtly and no-so-subtly bashing "quality of matches" in SC2 and whatnot.
OK, let's wait for the actual stream numbers, that will tell us quite a lot - unfortunatelly it will be skewed by having all three WCS on one weekend anyway, so it will not be very easy to disentagle the influence of DOTA. I already don't see myself watching everything (I sleep at 8-10 hours a day and I insist on that) and if I have to choose, it's definitely WCS KR and I am afraid that many people who are hardcore SC2 fans enough to not care about DOTA will feel the same and that can really hurt EU/US ...
There is a big representation of DotA2 players who are at least somewhat familiar with the SC2 scene in this thread. (This being on teamliquid after all.) Their bias stems from their personal perception and viewing habits.
Look, I have no illusions about LoL and DotA2 being more popular than SC2 but this argument that there is a significant overlap is pretty baseless from what I've seen. Even if there is, so what, people will have multiple streams running.
Note that just because TI3 will have higher stream numbers than WCS doesn't mean that there is a big overlap in the viewership. It actually tells you nothing.
All-in-all, this is not a big deal guys. Some of us will tune into TI3, some of us will tune into WCS and some of us will have multiple streams running to support eSports. Stay calm; everything will be fine.
On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote: Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
You don't have community websites dedicated to covering both football and golf, but here you have TL heavily invested in both SC2 and Dota.
Dunno if Blizzard wants to hurt Valve specifically, but to call a dota2 tournament the "Super Bowl of esport" is for sure wrong. Dota2 numbers so far have been far behind those for LoL and SC2. From my point of view, this might be hurting DotA more than SC2, but I understand Blizzard, having trouble to find a date, that doesn't collide with anything. So at least they didn't colide with another big SC2 event
You seem to troll.The last Ti2 had over 560k viewer . the biggest EVER run pure online tournament was a Dota 2 one just 3 weeks ago (peak was over 250k without counting TV).In this year, Dota 2 only lost in one month to SC2 in viewer numbers.
what if this years sc2 regionals will have HIGHER viewership than last year.Will blizzard still be bad or will it mean that overlapping events might not affect viewership at all and it fact this might have been a good idea.Just like the fact sc2 and dota have been at the same time at dreamhacks and they all got record number of viewers and packed houses.People should really wait for final numbers before making a call.
On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote: Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
Dunno if Blizzard wants to hurt Valve specifically, but to call a dota2 tournament the "Super Bowl of esport" is for sure wrong. Dota2 numbers so far have been far behind those for LoL and SC2. From my point of view, this might be hurting DotA more than SC2, but I understand Blizzard, having trouble to find a date, that doesn't collide with anything. So at least they didn't colide with another big SC2 event
Yeah .. no. Its really Blizzard shotting itself in the foot right here. You have to realize that player that aren't hardcore on one game will obviously watch the biggest tournament between both. And yeah last year TI2 peaked at 570k concurrent viewers, and like 1.5mil uniques. Wouldn't be surprised if TI3 could break 800/900k concurrent, maybe even a million. I'd be genuinely surprised if WCS Broke 80k with all 3 regions at the same time tbh.
On July 24 2013 00:13 theking1 wrote: dota2 and sc2 and lol were at the same time at dreamhack stockholm.What happened?Record number of stream viewers and a packed house for all 3 games.League of legends and sc2 and cod at the same time at the last mlg.What happened?Record number of viewers and packed house for all 3 games.Countless dota2 tournies running along side sc2 tournies and lol tournies.What happens?Growing number of viewers for all games.Overlapping does not necesasary mean less viewers.Other factors such as entertainment value come into play.I would not be surprised if this years wcs regional finals get more viewers than last years regional wcs finals.Of course people will come and say sc2 is dead since it did not beat the international number of viewers but sponsors and people involved will notice the actual increase in viewership.
Viewership for WCS prolly won't take as big a hit as people are saying. After all, many people will tune in to WCS during breaks or downtime from Bo3's that end 2-0. But the DH comparison with Ti3 is a little unfair to say the least. DH didn't have any Asian teams. DH didn't have storylines that have been building since the end of Ti2 and will climax and conclude at Ti3. DH didn't have an All-star match or 1v1 solo mid competition that fans get to vote for ingame. DH 1st place: 21k, Ti3 8th place: $25k. It's just not even close.
On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote: Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
They're closer to basketball and football in the context of American sports.
Games don't have to be similar, because people don't have uniform interests. In fact, overlap would arguably be smaller if the games were similar or part of the same genre.
Even if we disregard the actual games, the very magnitude of events would naturally draw in people that haven't watched before or don't watch regularly to check them out. They don't have to know, understand, or even like the game initially.
I first watched Dota as a Starcraft fan during the TI2. There were only two things I knew about the game - that Black Hole was a big deal, and that the watery hero is important for the late game. I watched it anyway because the production, commentary, and the energy of a live crowd created an amazing atmosphere.
Its not about who will get most views or whatever. The real problem is the meltdown of twitch (gonna happen for sure) and WCS will be fucked so hard while TI3 will have backups in dotatv and youtube.
On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote: Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
Dunno if Blizzard wants to hurt Valve specifically, but to call a dota2 tournament the "Super Bowl of esport" is for sure wrong. Dota2 numbers so far have been far behind those for LoL and SC2. From my point of view, this might be hurting DotA more than SC2, but I understand Blizzard, having trouble to find a date, that doesn't collide with anything. So at least they didn't colide with another big SC2 event
Yeah .. no. Its really Blizzard shotting itself in the foot right here. You have to realize that player that aren't hardcore on one game will obviously watch the biggest tournament between both. And yeah last year TI2 peaked at 570k concurrent viewers, and like 1.5mil uniques. Wouldn't be surprised if TI3 could break 800/900k concurrent, maybe even a million. I'd be genuinely surprised if WCS Broke 80k with all 3 regions at the same time tbh.
Well it is the once a year event for Dota 2 against the regional finals for SC2 for three seperate regions. Its not even the World Finals for Season 2, which are 2 weeks after that. Even LoL would be blown out of the water if it held is regional finals during TI3.
On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote: Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
Dunno if Blizzard wants to hurt Valve specifically, but to call a dota2 tournament the "Super Bowl of esport" is for sure wrong. Dota2 numbers so far have been far behind those for LoL and SC2. From my point of view, this might be hurting DotA more than SC2, but I understand Blizzard, having trouble to find a date, that doesn't collide with anything. So at least they didn't colide with another big SC2 event
Yeah .. no. Its really Blizzard shotting itself in the foot right here. You have to realize that player that aren't hardcore on one game will obviously watch the biggest tournament between both. And yeah last year TI2 peaked at 570k concurrent viewers, and like 1.5mil uniques. Wouldn't be surprised if TI3 could break 800/900k concurrent, maybe even a million. I'd be genuinely surprised if WCS Broke 80k with all 3 regions at the same time tbh.
Didn't EU WCS break 120 last year?
Look this isn't about DotA2 vs SC2. TI3 for sure will have higher concurrent but that says nothing about its impact on WCS. People who watches both games will have multiple streams up. It'll be fine.
On July 24 2013 00:13 theking1 wrote: dota2 and sc2 and lol were at the same time at dreamhack stockholm.What happened?Record number of stream viewers and a packed house for all 3 games.League of legends and sc2 and cod at the same time at the last mlg.What happened?Record number of viewers and packed house for all 3 games.Countless dota2 tournies running along side sc2 tournies and lol tournies.What happens?Growing number of viewers for all games.Overlapping does not necesasary mean less viewers.Other factors such as entertainment value come into play.I would not be surprised if this years wcs regional finals get more viewers than last years regional wcs finals.Of course people will come and say sc2 is dead since it did not beat the international number of viewers but sponsors and people involved will notice the actual increase in viewership.
Viewership for WCS prolly won't take as big a hit as people are saying. After all, many people will tune in to WCS during breaks or downtime from Bo3's that end 2-0. But the DH comparison with Ti3 is a little unfair to say the least. DH didn't have any Asian teams. DH didn't have storylines that have been building since the end of Ti2 and will climax and conclude at Ti3. DH didn't have an All-star match or 1v1 solo mid competition that fans get to vote for ingame. DH 1st place: 21k, Ti3 8th place: $25k. It's just not even close.
You would be quite surprise but having chinesse teams isnt a good thing for viewership since most foreign fans want to see foreign teams compete against each other.The only storyline that could be interesting would be a foreign teamaka navi and beating chinesse and that is about it.If it is going to turn in chinesse teams slaughtering everyone else the foreign viewership will go down.As a sc2 fan I see what happens to viewership when koreans dominate everything.
And dremahack is a good example of why concurrent video games and get record numbers of viewers even though both are at the same time.It is a very well organized even with many good foreign teams.Prizepool for me does not matter.I do not get excited to see how rich asian people get
On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote: Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I think that is true for TL members, but we are only one section of the whole community(maybe the largest). I don't know about the people who love Husky, or the r/starcraft groups. The cross over is huge for TL and the super hardcore players, that is for sure. But I also think the people on TL are just as likely to have two streams open at once.
If you look on r/starcraft, you can see that almost every person commenting on this is against it. I have no idea about the people who love Husky, but r/starcraft & TL are easily the biggest groups of eSports-following Sc2 players. Also, given how awful Twitch functions when there are huge tournaments on, I doubt anyone is going to be opening more than one stream; we'll be lucky if one stream functions well.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
It doesn't really matter about DotA/Sc2 being similar; the fact of the matter is that there is a huge overlap in the scenes of both games. This is obvious from even a cursory browsing of TL & r/starcraft. What's more, the International isn't just for DotA fans. [b]Everyone watches the International, because it's a massive event which showcases how eSports is reaching new heights. Even people who don't know/care about DotA's professional scene end up tuning in to the International, because it's just too damn big to ignore. It's not just me speculating about this, either; take a look at the previous runs of the International. They were all massive, and even pros from other games were watching them in awe and admiration. It's just one of those events that's so massive that it ends up drawing a crowd from everywhere. [/u]
On July 24 2013 00:13 theking1 wrote: dota2 and sc2 and lol were at the same time at dreamhack stockholm.What happened?Record number of stream viewers and a packed house for all 3 games.League of legends and sc2 and cod at the same time at the last mlg.What happened?Record number of viewers and packed house for all 3 games.Countless dota2 tournies running along side sc2 tournies and lol tournies.What happens?Growing number of viewers for all games.Overlapping does not necesasary mean less viewers.Other factors such as entertainment value come into play.I would not be surprised if this years wcs regional finals get more viewers than last years regional wcs finals.Of course people will come and say sc2 is dead since it did not beat the international number of viewers but sponsors and people involved will notice the actual increase in viewership.
I understand what are you saying, but let me ask, last WCS overall final production how good it was? downtime? anything else? The International 2012 was praised how smooth it was, this year it will probably be much more smoother(Valve learns from his mistakes[no pun intended]). So if you want a good weekend product you will probably choose one over another(with ocasional overlaps). Oh, and NO 2 different game final(DHS13) was at the same time. And you forget about the difference in magnitude of the events
On July 24 2013 00:13 theking1 wrote: dota2 and sc2 and lol were at the same time at dreamhack stockholm.What happened?Record number of stream viewers and a packed house for all 3 games.League of legends and sc2 and cod at the same time at the last mlg.What happened?Record number of viewers and packed house for all 3 games.Countless dota2 tournies running along side sc2 tournies and lol tournies.What happens?Growing number of viewers for all games.Overlapping does not necesasary mean less viewers.Other factors such as entertainment value come into play.I would not be surprised if this years wcs regional finals get more viewers than last years regional wcs finals.Of course people will come and say sc2 is dead since it did not beat the international number of viewers but sponsors and people involved will notice the actual increase in viewership.
Viewership for WCS prolly won't take as big a hit as people are saying. After all, many people will tune in to WCS during breaks or downtime from Bo3's that end 2-0. But the DH comparison with Ti3 is a little unfair to say the least. DH didn't have any Asian teams. DH didn't have storylines that have been building since the end of Ti2 and will climax and conclude at Ti3. DH didn't have an All-star match or 1v1 solo mid competition that fans get to vote for ingame. DH 1st place: 21k, Ti3 8th place: $25k. It's just not even close.
You would be quite surprise but having chinesse teams isnt a good thing for viewership since most foreign fans want to see foreign teams compete against each other.The only storyline that could be interesting would be a foreign teamaka navi and beating chinesse and that is about it.If it is going to turn in chinesse teams slaughtering everyone else the foreign viewership will go down.As a sc2 fan I see what happens to viewership when koreans dominate everything.
And dremahack is a good example of why concurrent video games and get record numbers of viewers even though both are at the same time.It is a very well organized even with many good foreign teams.Prizepool for me does not matter.I do not get excited to see how rich asian people get
You realize,that the last two big Championships in China were won by EU teams ? (NaVi,[A]lliance)
On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote: Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
Dunno if Blizzard wants to hurt Valve specifically, but to call a dota2 tournament the "Super Bowl of esport" is for sure wrong. Dota2 numbers so far have been far behind those for LoL and SC2. From my point of view, this might be hurting DotA more than SC2, but I understand Blizzard, having trouble to find a date, that doesn't collide with anything. So at least they didn't colide with another big SC2 event
Yeah .. no. Its really Blizzard shotting itself in the foot right here. You have to realize that player that aren't hardcore on one game will obviously watch the biggest tournament between both. And yeah last year TI2 peaked at 570k concurrent viewers, and like 1.5mil uniques. Wouldn't be surprised if TI3 could break 800/900k concurrent, maybe even a million. I'd be genuinely surprised if WCS Broke 80k with all 3 regions at the same time tbh.
Well it is the once a year event for Dota 2 against the regional finals for SC2 for three seperate regions. Its not even the World Finals for Season 2, which are 2 weeks after that. Even LoL would be blown out of the water if it held is regional finals during TI3.
Oh yeah totally agree, It's just that this guy was saying it hurts DotA more than SC2 and that's really not the case
Sucks for people that want to watch TI3/WCS EU/AM I guess. Makes no difference to me though since I'll just watch OSL on GOM (since twitch will likely make everything unwatchable as usual for a lot of Europeans) and probably not bother with anything else.
On July 24 2013 00:13 theking1 wrote: dota2 and sc2 and lol were at the same time at dreamhack stockholm.What happened?Record number of stream viewers and a packed house for all 3 games.League of legends and sc2 and cod at the same time at the last mlg.What happened?Record number of viewers and packed house for all 3 games.Countless dota2 tournies running along side sc2 tournies and lol tournies.What happens?Growing number of viewers for all games.Overlapping does not necesasary mean less viewers.Other factors such as entertainment value come into play.I would not be surprised if this years wcs regional finals get more viewers than last years regional wcs finals.Of course people will come and say sc2 is dead since it did not beat the international number of viewers but sponsors and people involved will notice the actual increase in viewership.
Viewership for WCS prolly won't take as big a hit as people are saying. After all, many people will tune in to WCS during breaks or downtime from Bo3's that end 2-0. But the DH comparison with Ti3 is a little unfair to say the least. DH didn't have any Asian teams. DH didn't have storylines that have been building since the end of Ti2 and will climax and conclude at Ti3. DH didn't have an All-star match or 1v1 solo mid competition that fans get to vote for ingame. DH 1st place: 21k, Ti3 8th place: $25k. It's just not even close.
You would be quite surprise but having chinesse teams isnt a good thing for viewership since most foreign fans want to see foreign teams compete against each other.The only storyline that could be interesting would be a foreign teamaka navi and beating chinesse and that is about it.If it is going to turn in chinesse teams slaughtering everyone else the foreign viewership will go down.As a sc2 fan I see what happens to viewership when koreans dominate everything.
And dremahack is a good example of why concurrent video games and get record numbers of viewers even though both are at the same time.It is a very well organized even with many good foreign teams.Prizepool for me does not matter.I do not get excited to see how rich asian people get
You realize,that the last two big Championships in China were won by EU teams ? (NaVi,[A]lliance)
You have to be pretty deep in the Dota 2 scene to notice that the EU teams have stepped it up big time. The grind of 3-8 cups running at once for 10-15K has really forced them improve. Also the new drafting system really favors teams with a strong captian and strong supports that can deal with a less than ideal line up of heroes.
On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote: Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
They're closer to basketball and football in the context of American sports.
Games don't have to be similar, because people don't have uniform interests. In fact, overlap would arguably be smaller if the games were similar or part of the same genre.
Even if we disregard the actual games, the very magnitude of events would naturally draw in people that haven't watched before or don't watch regularly to check them out. They don't have to know, understand, or even like the game initially.
I first watched Dota as a Starcraft fan during the TI2. There were only two things I knew about the game - that Black Hole was a big deal, and that the watery hero is important for the late game. I watched it anyway because the production, commentary, and the energy of a live crowd created an amazing atmosphere.
There isn't a huge overlap among basketball and football fans here.
But actually I agree with you on your other comment. I think in terms of newer viewers, this will likely turn more of them to TI3 than WCS. Like you, I casually took a peek at TI2 when it aired. Though I haven't watched any DotA since. That would be an impact but I'm not sure how big the casual viewership is and how likely it is for either TI3 or WCS to convert them to regular/hardcore fans.
On July 24 2013 00:13 theking1 wrote: dota2 and sc2 and lol were at the same time at dreamhack stockholm.What happened?Record number of stream viewers and a packed house for all 3 games.League of legends and sc2 and cod at the same time at the last mlg.What happened?Record number of viewers and packed house for all 3 games.Countless dota2 tournies running along side sc2 tournies and lol tournies.What happens?Growing number of viewers for all games.Overlapping does not necesasary mean less viewers.Other factors such as entertainment value come into play.I would not be surprised if this years wcs regional finals get more viewers than last years regional wcs finals.Of course people will come and say sc2 is dead since it did not beat the international number of viewers but sponsors and people involved will notice the actual increase in viewership.
I understand what are you saying, but let me ask, last WCS overall final production how good it was? downtime? anything else? The International 2012 was praised how smooth it was, this year it will probably be much more smoother(Valve learns from his mistakes[no pun intended]). So if you want a good weekend product you will probably choose one over another(with ocasional overlaps). Oh, and NO 2 different game final(DHS13) was at the same time. And you forget about the difference in magnitude of the events
Last years wcs europe production was excellent and praised.wcas korea production was always top notch given the professionalism in korea.Moreover this years korean wcs will be organzied by OGN which is an actual television with a studio and always has high production value.Unfortunately they do not get many viewers on twitch for reason beyond my comprehension.Last years wcs na was preety bad with the entire mlg debacle but this year nasl is raganizing and it is looking good.Only downside: too many koreans .
By your logic sc2 should not have any viewers at dremhack and mlg since it is always overlapping with lol and dota2.Fans of starcraft2 will watch sc2 and fans of dota 2 will watch dota,And fans of both will keep 2 windows open in their browser like I am going to do.1 window for the sc2 fun and 1 window for the dota2 fun.And whenever I see something interesting in 1 of them i will turn the volume down in the other but I will always have both streams open to support viewership for both dota2 and sc2
On July 24 2013 00:13 theking1 wrote: dota2 and sc2 and lol were at the same time at dreamhack stockholm.What happened?Record number of stream viewers and a packed house for all 3 games.League of legends and sc2 and cod at the same time at the last mlg.What happened?Record number of viewers and packed house for all 3 games.Countless dota2 tournies running along side sc2 tournies and lol tournies.What happens?Growing number of viewers for all games.Overlapping does not necesasary mean less viewers.Other factors such as entertainment value come into play.I would not be surprised if this years wcs regional finals get more viewers than last years regional wcs finals.Of course people will come and say sc2 is dead since it did not beat the international number of viewers but sponsors and people involved will notice the actual increase in viewership.
Viewership for WCS prolly won't take as big a hit as people are saying. After all, many people will tune in to WCS during breaks or downtime from Bo3's that end 2-0. But the DH comparison with Ti3 is a little unfair to say the least. DH didn't have any Asian teams. DH didn't have storylines that have been building since the end of Ti2 and will climax and conclude at Ti3. DH didn't have an All-star match or 1v1 solo mid competition that fans get to vote for ingame. DH 1st place: 21k, Ti3 8th place: $25k. It's just not even close.
You would be quite surprise but having chinesse teams isnt a good thing for viewership since most foreign fans want to see foreign teams compete against each other.The only storyline that could be interesting would be a foreign teamaka navi and beating chinesse and that is about it.If it is going to turn in chinesse teams slaughtering everyone else the foreign viewership will go down.As a sc2 fan I see what happens to viewership when koreans dominate everything.
And dremahack is a good example of why concurrent video games and get record numbers of viewers even though both are at the same time.It is a very well organized even with many good foreign teams.Prizepool for me does not matter.I do not get excited to see how rich asian people get
Then all the more reason for you and people who think like you to tune in to Ti3, because the chance of a Western team winning Ti3 is as high as it's been since Asia nearly swept the top 8 at Ti2. In the last 2 months, two Western teams have gone to China and won two tournaments larger than DH. If that doesn't hype even the most hardcore single-scene fanboy to be glued to Ti3, what will? DH also gets good peak numbers because the most hyped matches tend to be the grand finals, which afaik are never played simultaneously. DH also has plenty of rematches between Western teams that play each other fairly frequently every week. But a match like NaVi vs LGD China? First time they met since Ti2 was 2 weeks ago
On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote: Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
They're closer to basketball and football in the context of American sports.
Games don't have to be similar, because people don't have uniform interests. In fact, overlap would arguably be smaller if the games were similar or part of the same genre.
Even if we disregard the actual games, the very magnitude of events would naturally draw in people that haven't watched before or don't watch regularly to check them out. They don't have to know, understand, or even like the game initially.
I first watched Dota as a Starcraft fan during the TI2. There were only two things I knew about the game - that Black Hole was a big deal, and that the watery hero is important for the late game. I watched it anyway because the production, commentary, and the energy of a live crowd created an amazing atmosphere.
There isn't a huge overlap among basketball and football fans here.
But actually I agree with you on your other comment. I think in terms of newer viewers, this will likely turn more of them to TI3 than WCS. Like you, I casually took a peek at TI2 when it aired. Though I haven't watched any DotA since. That would be an impact but I'm not sure how big the casual viewership is and how likely it is for either TI3 or WCS to convert them to regular/hardcore fans.
Wait what? I don't really know anyone that watches football and doesn't at least watch basketball on a semi-regular basis or vice versa.
On July 23 2013 22:30 Pr0wler wrote: So now Blizzard should care about Dota 2 tournaments as well ? That is complete nonsense. It is hard enough to dodge all of the big SC2 tournaments... Now you want from them to dodge TI3, whats next ? LCS ? What about not doing tournaments at all, because there is so much tournaments for the other games ? If you want to watch TI3 - watch TI3, if you want to watch SC2 - watch WCS. Yes, it's that easy.
Guess what... On the same dates a round of the bulgarian football league is played. I don't thing that any eSports tournament should overlap with that. Cancel all the tournaments now !!!
On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote: Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
They're closer to basketball and football in the context of American sports.
Games don't have to be similar, because people don't have uniform interests. In fact, overlap would arguably be smaller if the games were similar or part of the same genre.
Even if we disregard the actual games, the very magnitude of events would naturally draw in people that haven't watched before or don't watch regularly to check them out. They don't have to know, understand, or even like the game initially.
I first watched Dota as a Starcraft fan during the TI2. There were only two things I knew about the game - that Black Hole was a big deal, and that the watery hero is important for the late game. I watched it anyway because the production, commentary, and the energy of a live crowd created an amazing atmosphere.
There isn't a huge overlap among basketball and football fans here.
But actually I agree with you on your other comment. I think in terms of newer viewers, this will likely turn more of them to TI3 than WCS. Like you, I casually took a peek at TI2 when it aired. Though I haven't watched any DotA since. That would be an impact but I'm not sure how big the casual viewership is and how likely it is for either TI3 or WCS to convert them to regular/hardcore fans.
Wait what? I don't really know anyone that watches football and doesn't at least watch basketball on a semi-regular basis or vice versa.
Most people do not watch all major league sports. I know a few people who watch hockey, baseball and some football, but all of those have different seasons and they only watch games for their team. And stuff is held on the on the same day all the time. Division finals can run on the same day as another championship(though the seasons do not line up).
On July 23 2013 22:43 ratbert wrote: so in fact you guys are worried that the numbers are going to be low? what difference does it make to you if theres 50k watching or 10k ? the games are not going to be of less quality because there's less people watching. i guess it's the "the sky is falling"-mentality all over again.
the only concern i understand is from people who would love to watch both events. but the sky wont fall and blizzard didn't kill sc2 because the sc2 stream is missing 50% of it's viewers because there's TI3 on
Low viewership might not matter to you, but it matters to Blizzard and more importantly, sponsors of teams, tournaments and in general, the scene. If WCS, Blizzard's premier tournament gets embarassed by TI3 (they already are with this PR nonsense) then there will be less investment in the scene. Even Riot, the most egotistical company around were smart enough to schedule around TI3, their biggest rival. Blizard not doing the same is the same as falling on your sword.
Viewership matters. A lot.
The thing is that nobody expects the regional finals to compete with TI3, even saying the seasonal finals were is a huge stretch. The only thing it can be compared to is Blizzcon. Which is the reason for this scheduling in the first place.
At first I thought, okay, they're having the Korea, Europe, and America finals all on the same weekend, so maybe 4 hours left out of the day to catch some sleep.
But then I hear it is the very weekend of The International?!
On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote: Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
They're closer to basketball and football in the context of American sports.
Games don't have to be similar, because people don't have uniform interests. In fact, overlap would arguably be smaller if the games were similar or part of the same genre.
Even if we disregard the actual games, the very magnitude of events would naturally draw in people that haven't watched before or don't watch regularly to check them out. They don't have to know, understand, or even like the game initially.
I first watched Dota as a Starcraft fan during the TI2. There were only two things I knew about the game - that Black Hole was a big deal, and that the watery hero is important for the late game. I watched it anyway because the production, commentary, and the energy of a live crowd created an amazing atmosphere.
There isn't a huge overlap among basketball and football fans here.
But actually I agree with you on your other comment. I think in terms of newer viewers, this will likely turn more of them to TI3 than WCS. Like you, I casually took a peek at TI2 when it aired. Though I haven't watched any DotA since. That would be an impact but I'm not sure how big the casual viewership is and how likely it is for either TI3 or WCS to convert them to regular/hardcore fans.
Wait what? I don't really know anyone that watches football and doesn't at least watch basketball on a semi-regular basis or vice versa.
Most people do not watch all major league sports. I know a few people who watch hockey, baseball and some football, but all of those have different seasons and they only watch games for their team. And stuff is held on the on the same day all the time. Division finals can run on the same day as another championship(though the seasons do not line up).
Wouldn't TI3 be a better comparison with the Super Bowl though? It's a once a year event with a massive prizepool and it's really the big Dota2 Tournament of the whole year. All TV networks try to avoid scheduling anything remotely important during the Super Bowl, even those that don't show sports.
Obviously TI3 is nowhere near as big as American Football, but in the world of esports it seems like if there was an equivalent to the Super Bowl, where you would try to avoid overlapping anything remotely important, it'd be TI3 and the LoL World Finals.
The decision is just weird. Total Biscuit was saying on Reddit that one of the big problems here is companies investing in esports are going to look at stream numbers and come to the conclusion that investing in Dota makes more sense than investing in SC2 since there's no way in hell that WCS will be able to come close to competing with TI3. Even if there isn't huge viewer overlap, it looks pretty bad to be totally overshadowed by another game when you're showing your finals. To go back to the sports comparison, hockey team owners don't like it when basketball games get a much bigger audience, even if those people don't like hockey, because it's bad for business.
If Blizzard is taking anything from this whole ordeal, it's at least to consider having a backup stream like Valve has done (despite already having the best spectator client by far). Twitch is likely to die, and is already garbage for EU. Heres hoping they have the sense to ask Youtube.
On July 23 2013 22:43 ratbert wrote: so in fact you guys are worried that the numbers are going to be low? what difference does it make to you if theres 50k watching or 10k ? the games are not going to be of less quality because there's less people watching. i guess it's the "the sky is falling"-mentality all over again.
the only concern i understand is from people who would love to watch both events. but the sky wont fall and blizzard didn't kill sc2 because the sc2 stream is missing 50% of it's viewers because there's TI3 on
Low viewership might not matter to you, but it matters to Blizzard and more importantly, sponsors of teams, tournaments and in general, the scene. If WCS, Blizzard's premier tournament gets embarassed by TI3 (they already are with this PR nonsense) then there will be less investment in the scene. Even Riot, the most egotistical company around were smart enough to schedule around TI3, their biggest rival. Blizard not doing the same is the same as falling on your sword.
Viewership matters. A lot.
The thing is that nobody expects the regional finals to compete with TI3, even saying the seasonal finals were is a huge stretch. The only thing it can be compared to is Blizzcon. Which is the reason for this scheduling in the first place.
Yeah, at the current state of the scene WCS EU and AM regional finals are not even in the top 10 of the most important events of the year, screwing some of them up is not that important.
Things that are a tier up compared to WCS EU/AM regionals this year: - Blizzcon Finals - Global Season finals 1 - Global Season finals 2 - Global Season finals 3 - GSL Season 1 - WCS KR Season 1 - WCS KR Season 2 - WCS KR Season 3 - 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter - IEM Season VII - World Championship - 2013 MLG Winter Championship - There were reports of a bigger MLG at the end of the year ( 2011 Providence style )
On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote: Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
They're closer to basketball and football in the context of American sports.
Games don't have to be similar, because people don't have uniform interests. In fact, overlap would arguably be smaller if the games were similar or part of the same genre.
Even if we disregard the actual games, the very magnitude of events would naturally draw in people that haven't watched before or don't watch regularly to check them out. They don't have to know, understand, or even like the game initially.
I first watched Dota as a Starcraft fan during the TI2. There were only two things I knew about the game - that Black Hole was a big deal, and that the watery hero is important for the late game. I watched it anyway because the production, commentary, and the energy of a live crowd created an amazing atmosphere.
There isn't a huge overlap among basketball and football fans here.
But actually I agree with you on your other comment. I think in terms of newer viewers, this will likely turn more of them to TI3 than WCS. Like you, I casually took a peek at TI2 when it aired. Though I haven't watched any DotA since. That would be an impact but I'm not sure how big the casual viewership is and how likely it is for either TI3 or WCS to convert them to regular/hardcore fans.
Wait what? I don't really know anyone that watches football and doesn't at least watch basketball on a semi-regular basis or vice versa.
Most people do not watch all major league sports. I know a few people who watch hockey, baseball and some football, but all of those have different seasons and they only watch games for their team. And stuff is held on the on the same day all the time. Division finals can run on the same day as another championship(though the seasons do not line up).
Wouldn't TI3 be a better comparison with the Super Bowl though? It's a once a year event with a massive prizepool and it's really the big Dota2 Tournament of the whole year. All TV networks try to avoid scheduling anything remotely important during the Super Bowl, even those that don't show sports.
Obviously TI3 is nowhere near as big as American Football, but in the world of esports it seems like if there was an equivalent to the Super Bowl, where you would try to avoid overlapping anything remotely important, it'd be TI3 and the LoL World Finals.
The decision is just weird. Total Biscuit was saying on Reddit that one of the big problems here is companies investing in esports are going to look at stream numbers and come to the conclusion that investing in Dota makes more sense than investing in SC2 since there's no way in hell that WCS will be able to come close to competing with TI3. Even if there isn't huge viewer overlap, it looks pretty bad to be totally overshadowed by another game when you're showing your finals. To go back to the sports comparison, hockey team owners don't like it when basketball games get a much bigger audience, even if those people don't like hockey, because it's bad for business.
The Superblow does not last for a full weekend. It is, at max, 5-7 hours in you include EVERYTHING. It is easy to stay out of its way. That is one of the larger problems with a lot of Esports events: they take forever.
On July 24 2013 01:48 Resilient wrote: If Blizzard is taking anything from this whole ordeal, it's at least to consider having a backup stream like Valve has done (despite already having the best spectator client by far). Twitch is likely to die, and is already garbage for EU. Heres hoping they have the sense to ask Youtube.
I really hope they do that. It is just so much better if you can switch if one stream sucks.
On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote: Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
They're closer to basketball and football in the context of American sports.
Games don't have to be similar, because people don't have uniform interests. In fact, overlap would arguably be smaller if the games were similar or part of the same genre.
Even if we disregard the actual games, the very magnitude of events would naturally draw in people that haven't watched before or don't watch regularly to check them out. They don't have to know, understand, or even like the game initially.
I first watched Dota as a Starcraft fan during the TI2. There were only two things I knew about the game - that Black Hole was a big deal, and that the watery hero is important for the late game. I watched it anyway because the production, commentary, and the energy of a live crowd created an amazing atmosphere.
There isn't a huge overlap among basketball and football fans here.
But actually I agree with you on your other comment. I think in terms of newer viewers, this will likely turn more of them to TI3 than WCS. Like you, I casually took a peek at TI2 when it aired. Though I haven't watched any DotA since. That would be an impact but I'm not sure how big the casual viewership is and how likely it is for either TI3 or WCS to convert them to regular/hardcore fans.
Wait what? I don't really know anyone that watches football and doesn't at least watch basketball on a semi-regular basis or vice versa.
Most people do not watch all major league sports. I know a few people who watch hockey, baseball and some football, but all of those have different seasons and they only watch games for their team. And stuff is held on the on the same day all the time. Division finals can run on the same day as another championship(though the seasons do not line up).
Nearly every major american sports season has an overlap with another and some run concurrently. Also, demographics and TV ratings would indicate that the majority of American sports fans watch each major sport of its respective calendar season.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
They're closer to basketball and football in the context of American sports.
Games don't have to be similar, because people don't have uniform interests. In fact, overlap would arguably be smaller if the games were similar or part of the same genre.
Even if we disregard the actual games, the very magnitude of events would naturally draw in people that haven't watched before or don't watch regularly to check them out. They don't have to know, understand, or even like the game initially.
I first watched Dota as a Starcraft fan during the TI2. There were only two things I knew about the game - that Black Hole was a big deal, and that the watery hero is important for the late game. I watched it anyway because the production, commentary, and the energy of a live crowd created an amazing atmosphere.
There isn't a huge overlap among basketball and football fans here.
But actually I agree with you on your other comment. I think in terms of newer viewers, this will likely turn more of them to TI3 than WCS. Like you, I casually took a peek at TI2 when it aired. Though I haven't watched any DotA since. That would be an impact but I'm not sure how big the casual viewership is and how likely it is for either TI3 or WCS to convert them to regular/hardcore fans.
Wait what? I don't really know anyone that watches football and doesn't at least watch basketball on a semi-regular basis or vice versa.
Most people do not watch all major league sports. I know a few people who watch hockey, baseball and some football, but all of those have different seasons and they only watch games for their team. And stuff is held on the on the same day all the time. Division finals can run on the same day as another championship(though the seasons do not line up).
Wouldn't TI3 be a better comparison with the Super Bowl though? It's a once a year event with a massive prizepool and it's really the big Dota2 Tournament of the whole year. All TV networks try to avoid scheduling anything remotely important during the Super Bowl, even those that don't show sports.
Obviously TI3 is nowhere near as big as American Football, but in the world of esports it seems like if there was an equivalent to the Super Bowl, where you would try to avoid overlapping anything remotely important, it'd be TI3 and the LoL World Finals.
The decision is just weird. Total Biscuit was saying on Reddit that one of the big problems here is companies investing in esports are going to look at stream numbers and come to the conclusion that investing in Dota makes more sense than investing in SC2 since there's no way in hell that WCS will be able to come close to competing with TI3. Even if there isn't huge viewer overlap, it looks pretty bad to be totally overshadowed by another game when you're showing your finals. To go back to the sports comparison, hockey team owners don't like it when basketball games get a much bigger audience, even if those people don't like hockey, because it's bad for business.
The Superblow does not last for a full weekend. It is, at max, 5-7 hours in you include EVERYTHING. It is easy to stay out of its way. That is one of the larger problems with a lot of Esports events: they take forever.
I realize that, but what I'm saying is on all the weekends of the year there are really only a few you should try to avoid at all costs - TI3 being one of them.
Even one regional final would've been ok, but to have three of them on a weekend that's going to be completely dominated by Dota2 is an awfully strange business decision.
So I've been reading the same comments over and over about how Blizz goofed hardcore by having the WCS finals be on the same day as TI3, since it will likely cut into viewers etc. While I agree, it can be inconvenient to fans who want to watch both of them (and for one reason or another, cannot do both), I still am a little confused.
There seems to be a jump that this conflict in scheduling (mistake on Blizzard's part) is of apocalyptic size and importance. Yes, WCS viewings will probably take a hit, and some people may have to choose between SC2 or DotA 2 for which stream/tournament they'd rather watch, but that doesn't mean that 'starcraft is dying' or 'blizzard has failed starcraft completely' etc. It's an inconvenience, not the end of the world, and if viewer numbers do take a hit, you can bet for sure that Blizzard will fix it next time around.
TL DR: It seems like people are blowing this way out of proportion and making it into something much more serious
On July 23 2013 23:57 Plansix wrote: [quote] Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
They're closer to basketball and football in the context of American sports.
Games don't have to be similar, because people don't have uniform interests. In fact, overlap would arguably be smaller if the games were similar or part of the same genre.
Even if we disregard the actual games, the very magnitude of events would naturally draw in people that haven't watched before or don't watch regularly to check them out. They don't have to know, understand, or even like the game initially.
I first watched Dota as a Starcraft fan during the TI2. There were only two things I knew about the game - that Black Hole was a big deal, and that the watery hero is important for the late game. I watched it anyway because the production, commentary, and the energy of a live crowd created an amazing atmosphere.
There isn't a huge overlap among basketball and football fans here.
But actually I agree with you on your other comment. I think in terms of newer viewers, this will likely turn more of them to TI3 than WCS. Like you, I casually took a peek at TI2 when it aired. Though I haven't watched any DotA since. That would be an impact but I'm not sure how big the casual viewership is and how likely it is for either TI3 or WCS to convert them to regular/hardcore fans.
Wait what? I don't really know anyone that watches football and doesn't at least watch basketball on a semi-regular basis or vice versa.
Most people do not watch all major league sports. I know a few people who watch hockey, baseball and some football, but all of those have different seasons and they only watch games for their team. And stuff is held on the on the same day all the time. Division finals can run on the same day as another championship(though the seasons do not line up).
Wouldn't TI3 be a better comparison with the Super Bowl though? It's a once a year event with a massive prizepool and it's really the big Dota2 Tournament of the whole year. All TV networks try to avoid scheduling anything remotely important during the Super Bowl, even those that don't show sports.
Obviously TI3 is nowhere near as big as American Football, but in the world of esports it seems like if there was an equivalent to the Super Bowl, where you would try to avoid overlapping anything remotely important, it'd be TI3 and the LoL World Finals.
The decision is just weird. Total Biscuit was saying on Reddit that one of the big problems here is companies investing in esports are going to look at stream numbers and come to the conclusion that investing in Dota makes more sense than investing in SC2 since there's no way in hell that WCS will be able to come close to competing with TI3. Even if there isn't huge viewer overlap, it looks pretty bad to be totally overshadowed by another game when you're showing your finals. To go back to the sports comparison, hockey team owners don't like it when basketball games get a much bigger audience, even if those people don't like hockey, because it's bad for business.
The Superblow does not last for a full weekend. It is, at max, 5-7 hours in you include EVERYTHING. It is easy to stay out of its way. That is one of the larger problems with a lot of Esports events: they take forever.
I realize that, but what I'm saying is on all the weekends of the year there are really only a few you should try to avoid at all costs - TI3 being one of them.
Even one regional final would've been ok, but to have three of them on a weekend that's going to be completely dominated by Dota2 is an awfully strange business decision.
They need to finish all the finals before Gamescon, two weeks later(see other thread on TL about the world finals for season 2). They either hold the finals early, aka, next weekend and everythign is rushed or they hold them the week before the finals and the teams have a week to work out getting their players who qualify to Gamescon. They only way they can find enough time to run the event is to get a Tardis and pull all of WCS back about 4 weeks.
On July 23 2013 23:41 Plansix wrote: Its annoying, but no more annoying that two great football games playing at the same time.
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
They're closer to basketball and football in the context of American sports.
Games don't have to be similar, because people don't have uniform interests. In fact, overlap would arguably be smaller if the games were similar or part of the same genre.
Even if we disregard the actual games, the very magnitude of events would naturally draw in people that haven't watched before or don't watch regularly to check them out. They don't have to know, understand, or even like the game initially.
I first watched Dota as a Starcraft fan during the TI2. There were only two things I knew about the game - that Black Hole was a big deal, and that the watery hero is important for the late game. I watched it anyway because the production, commentary, and the energy of a live crowd created an amazing atmosphere.
There isn't a huge overlap among basketball and football fans here.
But actually I agree with you on your other comment. I think in terms of newer viewers, this will likely turn more of them to TI3 than WCS. Like you, I casually took a peek at TI2 when it aired. Though I haven't watched any DotA since. That would be an impact but I'm not sure how big the casual viewership is and how likely it is for either TI3 or WCS to convert them to regular/hardcore fans.
Wait what? I don't really know anyone that watches football and doesn't at least watch basketball on a semi-regular basis or vice versa.
Most people do not watch all major league sports. I know a few people who watch hockey, baseball and some football, but all of those have different seasons and they only watch games for their team. And stuff is held on the on the same day all the time. Division finals can run on the same day as another championship(though the seasons do not line up).
Nearly every major american sports season has an overlap with another and some run concurrently. Also, demographics and TV ratings would indicate that the majority of American sports fans watch each major sport of its respective calendar season.
Yes, but you are talking about a season system that has been in place for nearly 50 years. They have worked the kinks out of it during that time and its a well oiled machine. And once again, they have Superblow Sunday, at night. Not Superblow 3 day event.
On July 24 2013 02:04 Pazuzu wrote: So I've been reading the same comments over and over about how Blizz goofed hardcore by having the WCS finals be on the same day as TI3, since it will likely cut into viewers etc. While I agree, it can be inconvenient to fans who want to watch both of them (and for one reason or another, cannot do both), I still am a little confused.
There seems to be a jump that this conflict in scheduling (mistake on Blizzard's part) is of apocalyptic size and importance. Yes, WCS viewings will probably take a hit, and some people may have to choose between SC2 or DotA 2 for which stream/tournament they'd rather watch, but that doesn't mean that 'starcraft is dying' or 'blizzard has failed starcraft completely' etc. It's an inconvenience, not the end of the world, and if viewer numbers do take a hit, you can bet for sure that Blizzard will fix it next time around.
TL DR: It seems like people are blowing this way out of proportion and making it into something much more serious
I agree with this to some extent. I think what you're seeing is a boiling over of frustration about how WCS has been organized so far. It feels like Blizzard makes a mistake every time it tries to do something with WCS and that they're incapable of learning from other companies who have been running esports tournaments for awhile (Riot and Valve).
This is certainly not the end of the world - as someone already pointed out, in the grand scheme of SC2 events this isn't even that big of an event. However, the constant stream of mistakes coming from Blizzard with regards to WCS is concerning.
On July 24 2013 02:04 Pazuzu wrote: So I've been reading the same comments over and over about how Blizz goofed hardcore by having the WCS finals be on the same day as TI3, since it will likely cut into viewers etc. While I agree, it can be inconvenient to fans who want to watch both of them (and for one reason or another, cannot do both), I still am a little confused.
There seems to be a jump that this conflict in scheduling (mistake on Blizzard's part) is of apocalyptic size and importance. Yes, WCS viewings will probably take a hit, and some people may have to choose between SC2 or DotA 2 for which stream/tournament they'd rather watch, but that doesn't mean that 'starcraft is dying' or 'blizzard has failed starcraft completely' etc. It's an inconvenience, not the end of the world, and if viewer numbers do take a hit, you can bet for sure that Blizzard will fix it next time around.
TL DR: It seems like people are blowing this way out of proportion and making it into something much more serious
I agree with this to some extent. I think what you're seeing is a boiling over of frustration about how WCS has been organized so far. It feels like Blizzard makes a mistake every time it tries to do something with WCS and that they're incapable of learning from other companies who have been running esports tournaments for awhile (Riot and Valve).
This is certainly not the end of the world - as someone already pointed out, in the grand scheme of SC2 events this isn't even that big of an event. However, the constant stream of mistakes coming from Blizzard with regards to WCS is concerning.
See what you said right there is a collected, coherent statement, and one that I can agree wholeheartedly with. It's just unfortunate to see people bashing the tournament that is the closest to a centralized league seen outside of PL in Korea, even if it may currently be flawed
On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote: totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group
In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene.
Man, you guys plagued WoW as well. Always using your thought-terminating cliches, claiming anything that didn't fit with your view was "whining". You're awful, really, self-destruction dullards that are so short-sighted they can't see the very thing they're enjoying is being damaged time and again by poor decisions from the people in control of it.
So forgive me if I think I might have earned the right to tell you to shut the fuck up.
On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote: totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group
In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene.
Oh come on TB, we said that you are good for the scene and like you. You just love to shoot from the hip a lot, mostly on twitter and reddit. Sometimes you hit dead on, other times you miss. Sometimes I wish you would do it less, other times I think its really funny. At the end of the day, its good for everyone and does keep Blizzard honest.
Now the hate dog pile afterwords, that is a different story...
On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote: totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group
In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene.
Oh come on TB, we said that you are good for the scene and like you. You just love to shoot from the hip a lot, mostly on twitter and reddit. Sometimes you hit dead on, other times you miss. Sometimes I wish you would do it less, other times I think its really funny. At the end of the day, its good for everyone and does keep Blizzard honest.
Now the hate dog pile afterwords, that is a different story...
Nah the problem is it just seems to be such a polarizing issue, people are pretty much one extreme or the other. Though i guess that makes sense since only people with strong opinions about it would be the ones to discuss it on internet forums haha
What if the two great football games being played at the same time were the Champions League and World Cup finals?
I imagine it would be a little bit more than "annoying".
Well more like the division finals for America football being on at the same time as the Masters for Golf.
Not at all. I'm pretty sure the demographic for the fucking International has a significant number of Sc2 players in it. I'm pretty sure the people who are golf fans aren't going to regret missing a division finals in American football, and vice versa, because there's not a whole lot of overlap (since golf & football are radically different sports). Sc2 and DotA have a huge crossover in terms of fanbase, not least because TL covers DotA. There is absolutely no excuse to run an important series of regional finals on the same day as the Superbowl of the eSports scene. It's just catastrophically stupid on so many levels.
I've been hearing this a lot in this thread and none of us have any real data. But let's follow along your line of reasoning for a second, in what way is SC2 and DotA so similar that you'd expect a huge overlap in spectators?
To me, they're no less different than golf and football.
They're closer to basketball and football in the context of American sports.
Games don't have to be similar, because people don't have uniform interests. In fact, overlap would arguably be smaller if the games were similar or part of the same genre.
Even if we disregard the actual games, the very magnitude of events would naturally draw in people that haven't watched before or don't watch regularly to check them out. They don't have to know, understand, or even like the game initially.
I first watched Dota as a Starcraft fan during the TI2. There were only two things I knew about the game - that Black Hole was a big deal, and that the watery hero is important for the late game. I watched it anyway because the production, commentary, and the energy of a live crowd created an amazing atmosphere.
There isn't a huge overlap among basketball and football fans here.
But actually I agree with you on your other comment. I think in terms of newer viewers, this will likely turn more of them to TI3 than WCS. Like you, I casually took a peek at TI2 when it aired. Though I haven't watched any DotA since. That would be an impact but I'm not sure how big the casual viewership is and how likely it is for either TI3 or WCS to convert them to regular/hardcore fans.
Wait what? I don't really know anyone that watches football and doesn't at least watch basketball on a semi-regular basis or vice versa.
Most people do not watch all major league sports. I know a few people who watch hockey, baseball and some football, but all of those have different seasons and they only watch games for their team. And stuff is held on the on the same day all the time. Division finals can run on the same day as another championship(though the seasons do not line up).
Wouldn't TI3 be a better comparison with the Super Bowl though? It's a once a year event with a massive prizepool and it's really the big Dota2 Tournament of the whole year. All TV networks try to avoid scheduling anything remotely important during the Super Bowl, even those that don't show sports.
Obviously TI3 is nowhere near as big as American Football, but in the world of esports it seems like if there was an equivalent to the Super Bowl, where you would try to avoid overlapping anything remotely important, it'd be TI3 and the LoL World Finals.
The decision is just weird. Total Biscuit was saying on Reddit that one of the big problems here is companies investing in esports are going to look at stream numbers and come to the conclusion that investing in Dota makes more sense than investing in SC2 since there's no way in hell that WCS will be able to come close to competing with TI3. Even if there isn't huge viewer overlap, it looks pretty bad to be totally overshadowed by another game when you're showing your finals. To go back to the sports comparison, hockey team owners don't like it when basketball games get a much bigger audience, even if those people don't like hockey, because it's bad for business.
The Superblow does not last for a full weekend. It is, at max, 5-7 hours in you include EVERYTHING. It is easy to stay out of its way. That is one of the larger problems with a lot of Esports events: they take forever.
Um, even if the Superbowl is only one day, that doesn't change the fact that holding a major final on the Saturday before the next day's Superbowl is still a terrible idea, because people are preparing for that Superbowl and can't be bothered to attend/get hyped for two events that close to each other. Lots of people go absolutely nuts during Superbowl season; they're not going to do it two days in a row. What's more, this is one weekend. It's three damn days. That's not "forever." That's one weekend. There have been oodles and oodles of weekends to chose from, and you're telling me that, of the fifty-two weekends in a given year, there was no way for Blizzard to avoid this one without sacrificing Blizzcon? Are you serious?
On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote: totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group
In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene.
Oh come on TB, we said that you are good for the scene and like you. You just love to shoot from the hip a lot, mostly on twitter and reddit. Sometimes you hit dead on, other times you miss. Sometimes I wish you would do it less, other times I think its really funny. At the end of the day, its good for everyone and does keep Blizzard honest.
Now the hate dog pile afterwords, that is a different story...
Nah the problem is it just seems to be such a polarizing issue, people are pretty much one extreme or the other. Though i guess that makes sense since only people with strong opinions about it would be the ones to discuss it on internet forums haha
There really is no middle of the road on the internet. Nuance and context are lost on us all. You are either a whiner or an apologists. I guess I am the latter, because I don't really mind that they are on the same weekend. But I looked at the other dates and what was going on, the number of weeks till Blizzcon and then remember we don't have time travel. So after that, it was easy to just go "Well, I guess they can't do anythng about it. Time to break out the second screen."
I think I might hook up my wifi repeater so I can listen to games while I do yard work.
On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote: totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group
In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene.
Oh come on TB, we said that you are good for the scene and like you. You just love to shoot from the hip a lot, mostly on twitter and reddit. Sometimes you hit dead on, other times you miss. Sometimes I wish you would do it less, other times I think its really funny. At the end of the day, its good for everyone and does keep Blizzard honest.
Now the hate dog pile afterwords, that is a different story...
Nah the problem is it just seems to be such a polarizing issue, people are pretty much one extreme or the other. Though i guess that makes sense since only people with strong opinions about it would be the ones to discuss it on internet forums haha
The people on the other extreme are just flat-out wrong though, that being the difference here. They're not taking the stance for any rational reason, they're taking it because BLIZZ CAN DO NO WRONG or I DON'T LIKE DESTINY SO I SHOULD TAKE THE OPPOSITE STANCE. This is not in fact a matter of opinion, the decision is objectively bad for the tournament. "I don't mind it being on the same day" is a shitty opinion, because it doesn't take into account all the reasons why it's bad. "Oh it doesn't affect me" shows a complete lack of empathy and understanding. It affects people that matter and it will eventually affect you too in real, tangible ways that even your ignorance will begin to understand if this scene keeps getting kicked in the teeth by poor decisions.
I'm deadly serious when I say the only people who are ok with this either don't understand the issue or are too damn apathetic for their opinion to matter anyway.
On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote: totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group
In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene.
Unfortunatelly for you people who try to see the positive side of sc2 are few in number as these forums and reddit prove.The fact that you are only good at talking vulgariously to attract viewers proves why blizzard should not listen to whiny little people such as yourself who only are vulgarious in language because they are boring in everything else.That and the fact that blizzard and the sc2 scene gave you a job when you were broke and living with your parents at the age of 30 when no other scene accepts people such as yourself proves that the company and scene is not as bad as it seems.But the fact that you keep making money out of casting sc2 and still insult the company and the viewers of sc2 at the same time is something very unique to sc2.
People such as yourself who insult fans on forums is one of the reasons why i sometimes dislike the community.By tommorow I will have contacted all of your sponsors and the sponsors of your future tournaments and posted this image on reddit/facebook/my personal twitter and all other social media sites.I have already print screened it so editing it would be useless.
Man, you guys plagued WoW as well. Always using your thought-terminating cliches, claiming anything that didn't fit with your view was "whining". You're awful, really, self-destruction dullards that are so short-sighted they can't see the very thing they're enjoying is being damaged time and again by poor decisions from the people in control of it.
So forgive me if I think I might have earned the right to tell you to shut the fuck up.
HAhaha.You can not tell me to shut up.You are just a whiner.A pundit of games.Always having a negativeoppion on everything without knowing anything.The glenn Beck of esports.You have only achieved to milk the scene out of the money.The sc2 scene and blizzard games were the only scenes that gave you the chance of making a living out of playing videogames.And here you are on the forums cotinuing the "sc2 is dead bandwagon".I like sc2 the way it is and have nothing to gain by expressing my oppinion.You,just like destiny are a random pundit always spewing out negativity to attract the doomsayers and make more viewers on your twitch shows and youtube channel.You do not even believe half of the stuff you say you are just saying it to attract more viewers attracted to drama.Stay in the pundit boat.
On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote: totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group
In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene.
Oh come on TB, we said that you are good for the scene and like you. You just love to shoot from the hip a lot, mostly on twitter and reddit. Sometimes you hit dead on, other times you miss. Sometimes I wish you would do it less, other times I think its really funny. At the end of the day, its good for everyone and does keep Blizzard honest.
Now the hate dog pile afterwords, that is a different story...
Nah the problem is it just seems to be such a polarizing issue, people are pretty much one extreme or the other. Though i guess that makes sense since only people with strong opinions about it would be the ones to discuss it on internet forums haha
The people on the other extreme are just flat-out wrong though, that being the difference here. They're not taking the stance for any rational reason, they're taking it because BLIZZ CAN DO NO WRONG or I DON'T LIKE DESTINY SO I SHOULD TAKE THE OPPOSITE STANCE. This is not in fact a matter of opinion, the decision is objectively bad for the tournament. "I don't mind it being on the same day" is a shitty opinion, because it doesn't take into account all the reasons why it's bad. "Oh it doesn't affect me" shows a complete lack of empathy and understanding. It affects people that matter and it will eventually affect you too in real, tangible ways that even your ignorance will begin to understand if this scene keeps getting kicked in the teeth by poor decisions.
I'm deadly serious when I say the only people who are ok with this either don't understand the issue or are too damn apathetic for their opinion to matter anyway.
That isn't want people are saying at all, from reading the thread. Its most people just accepting that there aren't a lot of other options and the time is limited till Blizzcon. It would be nice if Blizzard planned this out better, but that is not what happened. What else should we do to express our displeasure beyond go "that sucks, wish it was a different weekend"?
Edit: All right, since you updated your post, I am going to update mine. Sorry people don't agree with you on the subject, but what is your solution with the other events. How would WCS be run on other weekends when all three production crews have other events they need to put on?
On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote: totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group
In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene.
Unfortunatelly for you people who try to see the positive side of sc2 are few in number as these forums and reddit prove.The fact that you are only good at talking vulgariously to attract viewers proves why blizzard should not listen to whiny little people such as yourself who only are vulgarious in language because they are boring in everything else.That and the fact that blizzard and the sc2 scene gave you a job when you were broke and living with your parents at the age of 30 when no other scene accepts people such as yourself proves that the company and scene is not as bad as it seems.But the fact that you keep making money out of casting sc2 and still insult the company and the viewers of sc2 at the same time is something very unique to sc2.
People such as yourself who insult fans on forums is one of the reasons why i sometimes dislike the community.By tommorow I will have contacted all of your sponsors and the sponsors of your future tournaments and posted this image on reddit/facebook/my personal twitter and all other social media sites.I have already print screened it so editing it would be useless.
That's you right now. Your concern is people being "nice" (regardless of the fact that you weren't from the outset by insulting myself and Destiny". My concern is getting shit done, your concern is bitching on forums about how people are mean on the internet.
"But the fact that you keep making money out of casting sc2
I have invested over $100,000 in Starcraft 2, I do not make money from Starcraft 2, I do the opposite. You do not know shit, stop talking.
By tommorow I will have contacted all of your sponsors and the sponsors of your future tournaments and posted this image on reddit/facebook/my personal twitter and all other social media sites.I have already print screened it so editing it would be useless."
And I look forward to having a good laugh with them at your expense you ignorant, toxic, ineffectual parasite.
On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote: totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group
In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene.
Unfortunatelly for you people who try to see the positive side of sc2 are few in number as these forums and reddit prove.
Why would you TRY to see any side of anything?
Being selective about what you see isn't doing anybody any favors.
What else should we do to express our displeasure beyond go "that sucks, wish it was a different weekend"?
Tell Blizzard to get their fucking act together? WCS has been one misstep after another. It's not like this is the first evidence we have that Blizzard's planning/approach to WCS is absolutely terrible.
On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote: totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group
In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene.
Oh come on TB, we said that you are good for the scene and like you. You just love to shoot from the hip a lot, mostly on twitter and reddit. Sometimes you hit dead on, other times you miss. Sometimes I wish you would do it less, other times I think its really funny. At the end of the day, its good for everyone and does keep Blizzard honest.
Now the hate dog pile afterwords, that is a different story...
Nah the problem is it just seems to be such a polarizing issue, people are pretty much one extreme or the other. Though i guess that makes sense since only people with strong opinions about it would be the ones to discuss it on internet forums haha
The people on the other extreme are just flat-out wrong though, that being the difference here. They're not taking the stance for any rational reason, they're taking it because BLIZZ CAN DO NO WRONG or I DON'T LIKE DESTINY SO I SHOULD TAKE THE OPPOSITE STANCE. This is not in fact a matter of opinion, the decision is objectively bad for the tournament.
I agree that the decision to hold it this weekend was not a good one, I don't think anyone is contesting that (for obvious reasons). However, it's the jump from Blizz making a bad/inconvenient decision to another 'SC2 is dying repent ye sins' thread that I think is a little out of touch. As you are someone who's highly involved in the community/teams etc I can only imagine how frustrating it is to deal with poor business choices from Blizz, but much of the hate and anger in this thread is going far beyond "dammit blizzard you made a poor decision," and it's just as negative/harmful as the types of people you mentioned in your post
On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote: totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group
In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene.
Man, you guys plagued WoW as well. Always using your thought-terminating cliches, claiming anything that didn't fit with your view was "whining". You're awful, really, self-destruction dullards that are so short-sighted they can't see the very thing they're enjoying is being damaged time and again by poor decisions from the people in control of it.
So forgive me if I think I might have earned the right to tell you to shut the fuck up.
We are people who try and have a reasonable discussion (The guy you quoted didn't but you are attacking the entire other side of the argument with your post)
Not hating Blizzard at every turn because they make mistakes with their new format is not something to call people out on. Why even associate yourself with the scene when so many people only post here to talk shit about the death of Starcraft and how BW was so much better etc etc.
I respect your judgement, you are a very contributing member of the community and one of the best people who are a part of it but on some topics (mostly WCS related) I think you overanalyze things and get too mad at people individually sometimes for being more moderate on issues like this.
I agree that the decision to hold it this weekend was not a good one, I don't think anyone is contesting that (for obvious reasons). However, it's the jump from Blizz making a bad/inconvenient decision to another 'SC2 is dying repent ye sins' thread that I think is a little out of touch. As you are someone who's highly involved in the community/teams etc I can only imagine how frustrating it is to deal with poor business choices from Blizz, but much of the hate and anger in this thread is going far beyond "dammit blizzard you made a poor decision," and it's just as negative/harmful as the types of people you mentioned in your post
However, it's the jump from Blizz making a bad/inconvenient decision to another 'SC2 is dying repent ye sins' thread that I think is a little out of touch
That's because WCS has been an absolute travesty thus far. It's plagued with issues from region locking to weird point distributions to reducing GSL prize money to not allowing other tournaments to run. There isn't anything promising about Blizzard's approach so far, so I'm not sure why you're so eager to give them the benefit of the doubt.
On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote: totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group
In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene.
Man, you guys plagued WoW as well. Always using your thought-terminating cliches, claiming anything that didn't fit with your view was "whining". You're awful, really, self-destruction dullards that are so short-sighted they can't see the very thing they're enjoying is being damaged time and again by poor decisions from the people in control of it.
So forgive me if I think I might have earned the right to tell you to shut the fuck up.
We are people who try and have a reasonable discussion (The guy you quoted didn't but you are attacking the entire other side of the argument with your post)
Not hating Blizzard at every turn because they make mistakes with their new format is not something to call people out on. Why even associate yourself with the scene when so many people only post here to talk shit about the death of Starcraft and how BW was so much better etc etc.
I respect your judgement, you are a very contributing member of the community and one of the best people who are a part of it but on some topics (mostly WCS related) I think you overanalyze things and get too mad at people individually sometimes for being more moderate on issues like this.
Actually the very problem is that people underanalyse things and don't understand the implications of the things they're trying to discuss.
There is no valid other side of the argument. Those claiming it's ok either don't understand it well enough or just don't care enough, in either case their opinion isn't very important.
What else should we do to express our displeasure beyond go "that sucks, wish it was a different weekend"?
Tell Blizzard to get their fucking act together? WCS has been one misstep after another. It's not like this is the first evidence we have that Blizzard's planning/approach to WCS is absolutely terrible.
I already did that. I sent an email saying I was disappointed that they choose to run it on that weekend and they should make efforst to be more aware of other large scale Esports events. I also told them I found it unlikely that no one on their staff played Dota 2 or had a Steam account, so there was really no excuse for not being aware of it.
What more do you want me to do? I mean, I could freak out on the internet a bunch too, but thats not realy how I roll.
What else should we do to express our displeasure beyond go "that sucks, wish it was a different weekend"?
Tell Blizzard to get their fucking act together? WCS has been one misstep after another. It's not like this is the first evidence we have that Blizzard's planning/approach to WCS is absolutely terrible.
I already did that. I sent an email saying I was disappointed that they choose to run it on that weekend and they should make efforst to be more aware of other large scale Esports events. I also told them I found it unlikely that no one on their staff played Dota 2 or had a Steam account, so there was really no excuse for not being aware of it.
What more do you want me to do? I mean, I could freak out on the internet a bunch too, but thats not realy how I roll.
I don't agree with the rest of what you said so much but that sentence has a lot of truth to it that I wish a lot more people on here thought about lol
On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote: totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group
In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene.
Man, you guys plagued WoW as well. Always using your thought-terminating cliches, claiming anything that didn't fit with your view was "whining". You're awful, really, self-destruction dullards that are so short-sighted they can't see the very thing they're enjoying is being damaged time and again by poor decisions from the people in control of it.
So forgive me if I think I might have earned the right to tell you to shut the fuck up.
We are people who try and have a reasonable discussion (The guy you quoted didn't but you are attacking the entire other side of the argument with your post)
Not hating Blizzard at every turn because they make mistakes with their new format is not something to call people out on. Why even associate yourself with the scene when so many people only post here to talk shit about the death of Starcraft and how BW was so much better etc etc.
I respect your judgement, you are a very contributing member of the community and one of the best people who are a part of it but on some topics (mostly WCS related) I think you overanalyze things and get too mad at people individually sometimes for being more moderate on issues like this.
Actually the very problem is that people underanalyse things and don't understand the implications of the things they're trying to discuss.
There is no valid other side of the argument. Those claiming it's ok either don't understand it well enough or just don't care enough, in either case their opinion isn't very important.
Seriously TB, what else do you want people to do? They are upset, they expressed it and they want it to happen on a different weekend. Blizzard said it is impossible and from the other Esports events that are going on around TI3, it doesn't look like NASL, ESL and GOM have the room to do it any other weekend. We can get as outraged as you want, but its not going to make more production crews to run WCS. Hell, I think NA World of Tanks is being cast by Mr. Bitter and crew. We wouldn't even has casters for WCS NA.
I still don't get the logic behind this. The number of people who will skip TI3 for WCS: very small. The number who will do the reverse: massive. There's just no possible upside to doing this, and when viewership tanks it'll be interesting to see their response. I guess that will be the make or break for Blizzard's esports management skills. I don't think a single other tournament will be running on that weekend so everyone else planned for it but somehow WCS can't be moved, too bad.
What else should we do to express our displeasure beyond go "that sucks, wish it was a different weekend"?
Tell Blizzard to get their fucking act together? WCS has been one misstep after another. It's not like this is the first evidence we have that Blizzard's planning/approach to WCS is absolutely terrible.
I already did that. I sent an email saying I was disappointed that they choose to run it on that weekend and they should make efforst to be more aware of other large scale Esports events. I also told them I found it unlikely that no one on their staff played Dota 2 or had a Steam account, so there was really no excuse for not being aware of it.
What more do you want me to do? I mean, I could freak out on the internet a bunch too, but thats not realy how I roll.
I don't agree with the rest of what you said so much but that sentence has a lot of truth to it that I wish a lot more people on here thought about lol
So if you call it "an unfortunate mistake" (even though it had nothing to do with fortune), you're all good. But if you call it "a gigantic fuckup", you're a hater that kills esports.
On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote: totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group
In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene.
Unfortunatelly for you people who try to see the positive side of sc2 are few in number as these forums and reddit prove.The fact that you are only good at talking vulgariously to attract viewers proves why blizzard should not listen to whiny little people such as yourself who only are vulgarious in language because they are boring in everything else.That and the fact that blizzard and the sc2 scene gave you a job when you were broke and living with your parents at the age of 30 when no other scene accepts people such as yourself proves that the company and scene is not as bad as it seems.But the fact that you keep making money out of casting sc2 and still insult the company and the viewers of sc2 at the same time is something very unique to sc2.
People such as yourself who insult fans on forums is one of the reasons why i sometimes dislike the community.By tommorow I will have contacted all of your sponsors and the sponsors of your future tournaments and posted this image on reddit/facebook/my personal twitter and all other social media sites.I have already print screened it so editing it would be useless.
That's you right now. Your concern is people being "nice" (regardless of the fact that you weren't from the outset by insulting myself and Destiny". My concern is getting shit done, your concern is bitching on forums about how people are mean on the internet.
By tommorow I will have contacted all of your sponsors and the sponsors of your future tournaments and posted this image on reddit/facebook/my personal twitter and all other social media sites.I have already print screened it so editing it would be useless."
And I look forward to having a good laugh with them at your expense you ignorant, toxic, ineffectual parasite.
You have done nothing in the scene but milk money out if it.Just like you did with wow.You use negativity and vulgarious words to cause drama in order to attract viewers to an otherwise completly incompetent caster.You are JUST a PUNDIT.You have not brought anything constructive into the scene form the beginning.The only reason you still exist is because of fans like me who still watch this esport and still contribute to the viewership while all of the others have already swtiched to the mobas who rejected you.The only reason you get viewers is cause of your BM and that is it.Honestly I do not know why blizzard works with you but hopefully you will soon have the faith of idra.The less time you spend in the sc2 community and the faster you go to other scenes the better.You will probably switch soon just like you switched form wow.When the money milking form wow was gone immediately totalbrit made his appearance on the sc2 scene.There is a reaosn why most sc2 personalities including incontrol accused you of only being here for the money form the beggining.Now I realise why.
On July 24 2013 02:42 Plansix wrote: There is no valid other side of the argument. Those claiming it's ok either don't understand it well enough or just don't care enough, in either case their opinion isn't very important.
Seriously TB, what else do you want people to do? They are upset, they expressed it and they want it to happen on a different weekend. Blizzard said it is impossible and from the other Esports events that are going on around TI3, it doesn't look like NASL, ESL and GOM have the room to do it any other weekend. We can get as outraged as you want, but its not going to make more production crews to run WCS. Hell, I think NA World of Tanks is being cast by Mr. Bitter and crew. We wouldn't even has casters for WCS NA.[/QUOTE]
What I want people to do is listen to the people that know what they're talking about and stop trying to fight them on issues they don't fully understand. If you've said your piece then why even continue posting in the thread?
On July 24 2013 02:44 theking1 wrote: You have done nothing in the scene but milk money out if it.Just like you did with wow.You use negativity and vulgarious words to cause drama in order to attract viewers to an otherwise completly incompetent caster.You are JUST a PUNDIT.You have not brought anything constructive into the scene form the beginning.The only reason you still exist is because of fans like me who still watch this esport and still contribute to the viewership while all of the others have already swtiched to the mobas who rejected you.The only reason you get viewers is cause of your BM and that is it.Honestly I do not know why blizzard works with you but hopefully you will soon have the faith of idra.The less time you spend in the sc2 community and the faster you go to other scenes the better.You will probably switch soon just like you switched form wow.When the money milking form wow was gone immediately totalbrit made his appearance on the sc2 scene.There is a reaosn why most sc2 personalities including incontrol accused you of only being here for the money form the beggining.Now I realise why.
I'm just quoting this post so people can laugh at how moronic it is
I agree that the decision to hold it this weekend was not a good one, I don't think anyone is contesting that (for obvious reasons). However, it's the jump from Blizz making a bad/inconvenient decision to another 'SC2 is dying repent ye sins' thread that I think is a little out of touch. As you are someone who's highly involved in the community/teams etc I can only imagine how frustrating it is to deal with poor business choices from Blizz, but much of the hate and anger in this thread is going far beyond "dammit blizzard you made a poor decision," and it's just as negative/harmful as the types of people you mentioned in your post
Strawman argument
How exactly?
A group is more likely to respond to reasoned argument, not caustic rage from an internet forum. If anything, the fact that threads like this escalate the rage to a point where it's no longer even focused just removes the legitimacy of the people who are actually making reasonable arguments and pointing out Blizzard's flaws.
Not hating Blizzard at every turn because they make mistakes with their new format is not something to call people out on. Why even associate yourself with the scene when so many people only post here to talk shit about the death of Starcraft and how BW was so much better etc etc.
The reason Blizzard is "making mistakes with their new format" isn't because they're just getting unlucky. It's because they don't pay any attention to the community.
"hey Blizzard! Don't you think this system will make a bunch of Koreans dominate WCS America?" Silence. "We'll look at it next year.
"Hey Blizzard! Don't you think not allowing any tournaments to run at the same time as WCS will inhibit any and all community initiatives from taking off?" Silence. "We are aware of this problem."
"Hey Blizzard! Don't you think it's pretty silly that Korean progamers are making less money playing in their own country than they would playing online in WCS America for the simple reason that their region happens to be better than the others? Isn't this a good reason to have weighted seed distribution or hard region locking?" Silence. "We are aware of these problems and are looking at them internally."
"Hey Blizzard! Why are you opposed to actually giving any answers on anything ever?" Silence. "We don't like to promise things we can't deliver/we are aware of this/we're working very hard on it."
When was the last time Blizzard actually did anything in response to a community uproar without waiting a solid year first? I'm not advocating for a company to mindlessly listen to every whim its customers have, but when pretty much everybody agrees on things like better region-locking, not having a tournament at the same time as the International, better prize pool arrangements, custom tournaments in-game, better clan support, blah blah blah. Hell, even paid fucking name changes haven't been delivered yet.
Why would anyone give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt on anything related to eSports at this point? They've made decision after decision which paint them as being woefully out of touch with the scene in general.
What more do you want me to do? I mean, I could freak out on the internet a bunch too, but thats not realy how I roll.
I don't think anyone is "freaking out" about this. You've posted more than most people in this thread, so regardless of your mood, I don't think you're wasting any less time than the people you're accusing. As for what I want you to do: stop blindly eating up Blizzard's reasoning every time they give us total non-responses and absolve themselves of guilt ("there was no way to avoid it guys! It was just impossible!). Blizzard never actually comes out and admits that they fucked up badly, even if every person in the community is saying it. This is true from balance issues (Infestor/BL) to interface issues (Bnet 2.0, no LAN, no clan support) to tournament organization (WCS). They literally don't ever take the community's word for it; instead, they wait a year to implement some trivial change while other companies like Valve and Riot are busy actually improving things and being proactive rather than just fixing whatever the community raises a ruckus about in the laziest possible fashion.
I agree that the decision to hold it this weekend was not a good one, I don't think anyone is contesting that (for obvious reasons). However, it's the jump from Blizz making a bad/inconvenient decision to another 'SC2 is dying repent ye sins' thread that I think is a little out of touch. As you are someone who's highly involved in the community/teams etc I can only imagine how frustrating it is to deal with poor business choices from Blizz, but much of the hate and anger in this thread is going far beyond "dammit blizzard you made a poor decision," and it's just as negative/harmful as the types of people you mentioned in your post
Strawman argument
How exactly?
A group is more likely to respond to reasoned argument, not caustic rage from an internet forum. If anything, the fact that threads like this escalate the rage to a point where it's no longer even focused just removes the legitimacy of the people who are actually making reasonable arguments and pointing out Blizzard's flaws.
You are claiming the opposing argument is "STARCRAFT IS DYING REPENT YE SINS" extremism. You are misrepresenting the argument as unreasonable by claiming it's something that it is not, that would be a strawman.
On July 24 2013 02:42 Plansix wrote: There is no valid other side of the argument. Those claiming it's ok either don't understand it well enough or just don't care enough, in either case their opinion isn't very important.
Seriously TB, what else do you want people to do? They are upset, they expressed it and they want it to happen on a different weekend. Blizzard said it is impossible and from the other Esports events that are going on around TI3, it doesn't look like NASL, ESL and GOM have the room to do it any other weekend. We can get as outraged as you want, but its not going to make more production crews to run WCS. Hell, I think NA World of Tanks is being cast by Mr. Bitter and crew. We wouldn't even has casters for WCS NA.
What I want people to do is listen to the people that know what they're talking about and stop trying to fight them on issues they don't fully understand. If you've said your piece then why even continue posting in the thread?[/QUOTE]
Well, mostly you have yelled a lot and called people stupid or uninformed. Could you go into the arguments more, rather than just telling us we are uninformed and don't know what we are talking about? I mean, I am willing to accept that, but only with some good information.
On July 24 2013 02:47 Plansix wrote: Well, mostly you have yelled a lot and called people stupid or uninformed. Could you go into the arguments more, rather than just telling us we are uninformed and don't know what we are talking about? I mean, I am willing to accept that, but only with some good information.
Already done so, go read the Reddit posts on the matter.
What else should we do to express our displeasure beyond go "that sucks, wish it was a different weekend"?
Tell Blizzard to get their fucking act together? WCS has been one misstep after another. It's not like this is the first evidence we have that Blizzard's planning/approach to WCS is absolutely terrible.
I already did that. I sent an email saying I was disappointed that they choose to run it on that weekend and they should make efforst to be more aware of other large scale Esports events. I also told them I found it unlikely that no one on their staff played Dota 2 or had a Steam account, so there was really no excuse for not being aware of it.
What more do you want me to do? I mean, I could freak out on the internet a bunch too, but thats not realy how I roll.
I don't agree with the rest of what you said so much but that sentence has a lot of truth to it that I wish a lot more people on here thought about lol
So if you call it "an unfortunate mistake" (even though it had nothing to do with fortune), you're all good. But if you call it "a gigantic fuckup", you're a hater that kills esports.
Why are you calling me out like that? I know it has nothing to do with fortune, it was an unpopular decision made by Blizzard which the repercussions (if any that result from this) haven't even be felt yet so arguing over how detrimental it is to the scene is completely baseless.
I agree that the decision to hold it this weekend was not a good one, I don't think anyone is contesting that (for obvious reasons). However, it's the jump from Blizz making a bad/inconvenient decision to another 'SC2 is dying repent ye sins' thread that I think is a little out of touch. As you are someone who's highly involved in the community/teams etc I can only imagine how frustrating it is to deal with poor business choices from Blizz, but much of the hate and anger in this thread is going far beyond "dammit blizzard you made a poor decision," and it's just as negative/harmful as the types of people you mentioned in your post
Strawman argument
How exactly?
A group is more likely to respond to reasoned argument, not caustic rage from an internet forum. If anything, the fact that threads like this escalate the rage to a point where it's no longer even focused just removes the legitimacy of the people who are actually making reasonable arguments and pointing out Blizzard's flaws.
You are claiming the opposing argument is "STARCRAFT IS DYING REPENT YE SINS" extremism. You are misrepresenting the argument as unreasonable by claiming it's something that it is not, that would be a strawman.
For real, I don't think he did anything like that. I'm with you on almost everything you're sayin man but just take a few deep breaths. You're hitting friends here too.
On July 24 2013 02:47 Plansix wrote: Well, mostly you have yelled a lot and called people stupid or uninformed. Could you go into the arguments more, rather than just telling us we are uninformed and don't know what we are talking about? I mean, I am willing to accept that, but only with some good information.
Already done so, go read the Reddit posts on the matter.
You mean your post about sponsors seeing TI3 and the massive numbers it is going to put up that weekend, and wanting to invest in Dota 2. I saw that post and it seems like a good point. What is your solution to Blizzard's issue that they can't runs the regional 2 finals on any other weekend, due to the production teams being busy?
Also, couldn't you take the numbers from the Gamescom finals and use those instead, since won't have the TI3 overshadowing them?
I agree that the decision to hold it this weekend was not a good one, I don't think anyone is contesting that (for obvious reasons). However, it's the jump from Blizz making a bad/inconvenient decision to another 'SC2 is dying repent ye sins' thread that I think is a little out of touch. As you are someone who's highly involved in the community/teams etc I can only imagine how frustrating it is to deal with poor business choices from Blizz, but much of the hate and anger in this thread is going far beyond "dammit blizzard you made a poor decision," and it's just as negative/harmful as the types of people you mentioned in your post
Strawman argument
How exactly?
A group is more likely to respond to reasoned argument, not caustic rage from an internet forum. If anything, the fact that threads like this escalate the rage to a point where it's no longer even focused just removes the legitimacy of the people who are actually making reasonable arguments and pointing out Blizzard's flaws.
You are claiming the opposing argument is "STARCRAFT IS DYING REPENT YE SINS" extremism. You are misrepresenting the argument as unreasonable by claiming it's something that it is not, that would be a strawman.
For real, I don't think he did anything like that. I'm with you on almost everything you're sayin man but just take a few deep breaths. You're hitting friends here too.
What this guy said, you are talking to the coverted here. We are all on your side and want SC2 to do well, but if the date can't be changed, why freak out so hard?
On July 24 2013 02:49 See.Blue wrote: For real, I don't think he did anything like that. I'm with you on almost everything you're sayin man but just take a few deep breaths. You're hitting friends here too.
I don't think so. Anyone willing to defend decisions like this is no friend of the scene. Through ignorance or malice they're supporting decisions that damage it. You'll have to forgive me if because of my investment in it, I feel a little more passionate about it than most.
I agree that the decision to hold it this weekend was not a good one, I don't think anyone is contesting that (for obvious reasons). However, it's the jump from Blizz making a bad/inconvenient decision to another 'SC2 is dying repent ye sins' thread that I think is a little out of touch. As you are someone who's highly involved in the community/teams etc I can only imagine how frustrating it is to deal with poor business choices from Blizz, but much of the hate and anger in this thread is going far beyond "dammit blizzard you made a poor decision," and it's just as negative/harmful as the types of people you mentioned in your post
Strawman argument
How exactly?
A group is more likely to respond to reasoned argument, not caustic rage from an internet forum. If anything, the fact that threads like this escalate the rage to a point where it's no longer even focused just removes the legitimacy of the people who are actually making reasonable arguments and pointing out Blizzard's flaws.
You are claiming the opposing argument is "STARCRAFT IS DYING REPENT YE SINS" extremism. You are misrepresenting the argument as unreasonable by claiming it's something that it is not, that would be a strawman.
No I'm claiming that over the course of the thread, general consensus has escalated from "blizz made a mistake, get your stuff together" which is productive and necessary for Blizz to hear (which I don't think anyone is contesting), to an inappropriate level of anger which is no longer productive.
No I'm claiming that over the course of the thread, general consensus has escalated from "blizz made a mistake, get your stuff together" which is productive and necessary for Blizz to hear (which I don't think anyone is contesting), to an inappropriate level of anger which is no longer productive.
What did you expect? The people who made their points have already stopped posting, leaving only either sides extremists to fight it out.
What else should we do to express our displeasure beyond go "that sucks, wish it was a different weekend"?
Tell Blizzard to get their fucking act together? WCS has been one misstep after another. It's not like this is the first evidence we have that Blizzard's planning/approach to WCS is absolutely terrible.
I already did that. I sent an email saying I was disappointed that they choose to run it on that weekend and they should make efforst to be more aware of other large scale Esports events. I also told them I found it unlikely that no one on their staff played Dota 2 or had a Steam account, so there was really no excuse for not being aware of it.
What more do you want me to do? I mean, I could freak out on the internet a bunch too, but thats not realy how I roll.
I don't agree with the rest of what you said so much but that sentence has a lot of truth to it that I wish a lot more people on here thought about lol
So if you call it "an unfortunate mistake" (even though it had nothing to do with fortune), you're all good. But if you call it "a gigantic fuckup", you're a hater that kills esports.
Why are you calling me out like that? I know it has nothing to do with fortune, it was an unpopular decision made by Blizzard which the repercussions (if any that result from this) haven't even be felt yet so arguing over how detrimental it is to the scene is completely baseless.
There is no way that this decision won't be detrimental to the scene. That's the point. No matter which way you look at it, this is not good for the scene. Even if Blizzard luckily escapes total obliteration and embarrassment at the hands of the International, it still doesn't actually help the scene. Since when were decisions about how little things will hurt rather than about how much they will help? This decision achieves absolutely nothing beneficial for the scene. That's why it's a shitty decision. It's a huge gamble with no gain whatsoever.
What is your solution to Blizzard's issue that they can't runs the regional 2 finals on any other weekend, due to the production teams being busy?
The solution is to call this out as the hilariously unbelievable excuse that it is.
No I'm claiming that over the course of the thread, general consensus has escalated from "blizz made a mistake, get your stuff together" which is productive and necessary for Blizz to hear (which I don't think anyone is contesting), to an inappropriate level of anger which is no longer productive.
What did you expect? The people who made their points have already stopped posting, leaving only either sides extremists to fight it out.
eh, it looks like the only guy who was giving you shit and was who i'd call an extremist just got banned xD
No I'm claiming that over the course of the thread, general consensus has escalated from "blizz made a mistake, get your stuff together" which is productive and necessary for Blizz to hear (which I don't think anyone is contesting), to an inappropriate level of anger which is no longer productive.
What did you expect? The people who made their points have already stopped posting, leaving only either sides extremists to fight it out.
eh, it looks like the only guy who was giving you shit and was who i'd call an extremist just got banned xD
No I'm claiming that over the course of the thread, general consensus has escalated from "blizz made a mistake, get your stuff together" which is productive and necessary for Blizz to hear (which I don't think anyone is contesting), to an inappropriate level of anger which is no longer productive.
What did you expect? The people who made their points have already stopped posting, leaving only either sides extremists to fight it out.
eh, it looks like the only guy who was giving you shit and was who i'd call an extremist just got banned xD
Yeah, I took care of that. He was totally out of line with his comments. TB may be abrasive at times, but he does good stuff for the scene and gives back way more.
What else should we do to express our displeasure beyond go "that sucks, wish it was a different weekend"?
Tell Blizzard to get their fucking act together? WCS has been one misstep after another. It's not like this is the first evidence we have that Blizzard's planning/approach to WCS is absolutely terrible.
I already did that. I sent an email saying I was disappointed that they choose to run it on that weekend and they should make efforst to be more aware of other large scale Esports events. I also told them I found it unlikely that no one on their staff played Dota 2 or had a Steam account, so there was really no excuse for not being aware of it.
What more do you want me to do? I mean, I could freak out on the internet a bunch too, but thats not realy how I roll.
I don't agree with the rest of what you said so much but that sentence has a lot of truth to it that I wish a lot more people on here thought about lol
So if you call it "an unfortunate mistake" (even though it had nothing to do with fortune), you're all good. But if you call it "a gigantic fuckup", you're a hater that kills esports.
Why are you calling me out like that? I know it has nothing to do with fortune, it was an unpopular decision made by Blizzard which the repercussions (if any that result from this) haven't even be felt yet so arguing over how detrimental it is to the scene is completely baseless.
There is no way that this decision won't be detrimental to the scene. That's the point. No matter which way you look at it, this is not good for the scene. Even if Blizzard luckily escapes total obliteration and embarrassment at the hands of the International, it still doesn't actually help the scene. Since when were decisions about how little things will hurt rather than about how much they will help? This decision achieves absolutely nothing beneficial for the scene. That's why it's a shitty decision. It's a huge gamble with no gain whatsoever.
What is your solution to Blizzard's issue that they can't runs the regional 2 finals on any other weekend, due to the production teams being busy?
The solution is to call this out as the hilariously unbelievable excuse that it is.
Nobody expects the regional finals for season 2 to pull the numbers of TI3, not or me or any sponsor on the planet. If Blizzcon and TI3 were at the same time your argument would be really sound but season 2 regionals are not a tournament that is big enough to actually hurt the scene with a loss of viewership. Someone a few posts back listed the importance of SC2 tournaments over the course of the year and only WCS Korea Regional finals were in the top 10.
People think if something isn't helping E-Sports than its killing it but do you ever consider that the average spectator, someone who isn't one of us on TL or Reddit who doesn't analyzes things as closely as we do really care that much and are swayed by things like this?
On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote: totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group
In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene.
Oh come on TB, we said that you are good for the scene and like you. You just love to shoot from the hip a lot, mostly on twitter and reddit. Sometimes you hit dead on, other times you miss. Sometimes I wish you would do it less, other times I think its really funny. At the end of the day, its good for everyone and does keep Blizzard honest.
Now the hate dog pile afterwords, that is a different story...
Nah the problem is it just seems to be such a polarizing issue, people are pretty much one extreme or the other. Though i guess that makes sense since only people with strong opinions about it would be the ones to discuss it on internet forums haha
The people on the other extreme are just flat-out wrong though, that being the difference here. They're not taking the stance for any rational reason, they're taking it because BLIZZ CAN DO NO WRONG or I DON'T LIKE DESTINY SO I SHOULD TAKE THE OPPOSITE STANCE. This is not in fact a matter of opinion, the decision is objectively bad for the tournament. "I don't mind it being on the same day" is a shitty opinion, because it doesn't take into account all the reasons why it's bad. "Oh it doesn't affect me" shows a complete lack of empathy and understanding. It affects people that matter and it will eventually affect you too in real, tangible ways that even your ignorance will begin to understand if this scene keeps getting kicked in the teeth by poor decisions.
I'm deadly serious when I say the only people who are ok with this either don't understand the issue or are too damn apathetic for their opinion to matter anyway.
The TI3 scheduling claim is obvious mistake and while its not earthshattering ( there are 10+ bigger events this year compared to EU/AM regional finals and 10+ more of similar size) its hard to find a excuse for that - given that the next weekend has absolutely nothing happening that could have a conflict.
I do have trouble understanding the why 3 regionals per weekend finals are such a big deal for the players.
For regional sponsors i dont see how it matters at all ( or is beneficial ) For global sponsors it just means that they would have to split their marketing budget between 3 tournaments. If your sponsor of AM based team lowers budget, they will lose money .... but then again if a sponsor of a team in KR, and another one in EU do the same - they will have to come looking for an AM team, so in the end it ends up the same?
The overall problem is that TI2 has been widely recognized as one of (if not the) the greatest esports events ever.
It had crowd hype (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldq1afiKQb8) Amazing games Incredible venue Incredible prizepool Fantastic commentator diversity Amazing schedule Unmatched production
And so forth. TI3's hype is through the roof thanks to their Compendium scheme. I just can't get it through my head who would ever think it's a good idea to try and compete with Valve's golden egg.
On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote: totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group
In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene.
Oh come on TB, we said that you are good for the scene and like you. You just love to shoot from the hip a lot, mostly on twitter and reddit. Sometimes you hit dead on, other times you miss. Sometimes I wish you would do it less, other times I think its really funny. At the end of the day, its good for everyone and does keep Blizzard honest.
Now the hate dog pile afterwords, that is a different story...
Nah the problem is it just seems to be such a polarizing issue, people are pretty much one extreme or the other. Though i guess that makes sense since only people with strong opinions about it would be the ones to discuss it on internet forums haha
The people on the other extreme are just flat-out wrong though, that being the difference here. They're not taking the stance for any rational reason, they're taking it because BLIZZ CAN DO NO WRONG or I DON'T LIKE DESTINY SO I SHOULD TAKE THE OPPOSITE STANCE. This is not in fact a matter of opinion, the decision is objectively bad for the tournament. "I don't mind it being on the same day" is a shitty opinion, because it doesn't take into account all the reasons why it's bad. "Oh it doesn't affect me" shows a complete lack of empathy and understanding. It affects people that matter and it will eventually affect you too in real, tangible ways that even your ignorance will begin to understand if this scene keeps getting kicked in the teeth by poor decisions.
I'm deadly serious when I say the only people who are ok with this either don't understand the issue or are too damn apathetic for their opinion to matter anyway.
The TI3 scheduling claim is obvious mistake and while its not earthshattering ( there are 10+ bigger events this year compared to EU/AM regional finals and 10+ more of similar size) its hard to find a excuse for that - given that the next weekend has absolutely nothing happening that could have a conflict.
I do have trouble understanding the why 3 regionals per weekend finals are such a big deal for the players.
For regional sponsors i dont see how it matters at all ( or is beneficial ) For global sponsors it just means that they would have to split their marketing budget between 3 tournaments. If your sponsor of AM based team lowers budget, they will lose money .... but then again if a sponsor of a team in KR, and another one in EU do the same - they will have to come looking for an AM team, so in the end it ends up the same?
I think they just don't want SC2 next to the minium 500K viewers that TI3 is going to get. I can kinda see the point, but that thing was always going to put up amazing numbers no matter what. The problem is that delaying season 2 further will just slow down season 3 and leave less time to hype the Blizzcon, which is goning to be the biggest and best of the year. Also, I haven't really seen a solution to the whole "ESL and NASL got shit to do on the other weekends" problem.
What else should we do to express our displeasure beyond go "that sucks, wish it was a different weekend"?
Tell Blizzard to get their fucking act together? WCS has been one misstep after another. It's not like this is the first evidence we have that Blizzard's planning/approach to WCS is absolutely terrible.
I already did that. I sent an email saying I was disappointed that they choose to run it on that weekend and they should make efforst to be more aware of other large scale Esports events. I also told them I found it unlikely that no one on their staff played Dota 2 or had a Steam account, so there was really no excuse for not being aware of it.
What more do you want me to do? I mean, I could freak out on the internet a bunch too, but thats not realy how I roll.
I don't agree with the rest of what you said so much but that sentence has a lot of truth to it that I wish a lot more people on here thought about lol
So if you call it "an unfortunate mistake" (even though it had nothing to do with fortune), you're all good. But if you call it "a gigantic fuckup", you're a hater that kills esports.
Why are you calling me out like that? I know it has nothing to do with fortune, it was an unpopular decision made by Blizzard which the repercussions (if any that result from this) haven't even be felt yet so arguing over how detrimental it is to the scene is completely baseless.
There is no way that this decision won't be detrimental to the scene. That's the point. No matter which way you look at it, this is not good for the scene. Even if Blizzard luckily escapes total obliteration and embarrassment at the hands of the International, it still doesn't actually help the scene. Since when were decisions about how little things will hurt rather than about how much they will help? This decision achieves absolutely nothing beneficial for the scene. That's why it's a shitty decision. It's a huge gamble with no gain whatsoever.
What is your solution to Blizzard's issue that they can't runs the regional 2 finals on any other weekend, due to the production teams being busy?
The solution is to call this out as the hilariously unbelievable excuse that it is.
Nobody expects the regional finals for season 2 to pull the numbers of TI3, not or me or any sponsor on the planet. If Blizzcon and TI3 were at the same time your argument would be really sound but season 2 regionals are not a tournament that is big enough to actually hurt the scene with a loss of viewership. Someone a few posts back listed the importance of SC2 tournaments over the course of the year and only WCS Korea Regional finals were in the top 10.
People think if something isn't helping E-Sports than its killing it but do you ever consider that the average spectator, someone who isn't one of us on TL or Reddit who doesn't analyzes things as closely as we do really care that much and are swayed by things like this?
I think the average spectator doesn't really have any allegiance to Sc2, DotA, or LoL, but if they're coming into the scene, they might just notice that there are two companies who are really pushing the envelope with respect to eSports and then this other company that sometimes has good tournaments but it's really unpredictable, disjointed, and has tonnes of problems/usually isn't very interesting event-wise.
In an eSports world in which the competition is always looking to step things up, things that don't improve the scene (and have a better chance of hurting than helping it) are absolutely bad for the scene, especially when they're part of the large-scale, developer-driven tournament of that scene. If Blizzard continues to lag behind with WCS, then other companies are just going to keep improving . That means that people will become more and more aware of the huge gap separating the International/LCS from WCS. Since LCS/International have always stepped up with every successive iteration, it absolutely matters if WCS is simply trying to preserve the status quo. This is especially true in light of the fact that there are gazillions of problems with WCS, and the only reason people are giving it a chance is to see if Blizzard will fix those problems and make the tournaments better. Every time Blizzard makes a poorly thought-out decision, they spit in the face of people hanging on to the idea that WCS is a work in progress. Usually WIP things make measurable progress at a reasonable rate. When there are two companies moving forward at several hundred times the rate of Blizzard, it's difficult to believe that Blizzard "needs more time." Blizzard isn't some indie game developer. It's fucking Blizzard.
What else should we do to express our displeasure beyond go "that sucks, wish it was a different weekend"?
Tell Blizzard to get their fucking act together? WCS has been one misstep after another. It's not like this is the first evidence we have that Blizzard's planning/approach to WCS is absolutely terrible.
I already did that. I sent an email saying I was disappointed that they choose to run it on that weekend and they should make efforst to be more aware of other large scale Esports events. I also told them I found it unlikely that no one on their staff played Dota 2 or had a Steam account, so there was really no excuse for not being aware of it.
What more do you want me to do? I mean, I could freak out on the internet a bunch too, but thats not realy how I roll.
I don't agree with the rest of what you said so much but that sentence has a lot of truth to it that I wish a lot more people on here thought about lol
So if you call it "an unfortunate mistake" (even though it had nothing to do with fortune), you're all good. But if you call it "a gigantic fuckup", you're a hater that kills esports.
Why are you calling me out like that? I know it has nothing to do with fortune, it was an unpopular decision made by Blizzard which the repercussions (if any that result from this) haven't even be felt yet so arguing over how detrimental it is to the scene is completely baseless.
There is no way that this decision won't be detrimental to the scene. That's the point. No matter which way you look at it, this is not good for the scene. Even if Blizzard luckily escapes total obliteration and embarrassment at the hands of the International, it still doesn't actually help the scene. Since when were decisions about how little things will hurt rather than about how much they will help? This decision achieves absolutely nothing beneficial for the scene. That's why it's a shitty decision. It's a huge gamble with no gain whatsoever.
What is your solution to Blizzard's issue that they can't runs the regional 2 finals on any other weekend, due to the production teams being busy?
The solution is to call this out as the hilariously unbelievable excuse that it is.
Nobody expects the regional finals for season 2 to pull the numbers of TI3, not or me or any sponsor on the planet. If Blizzcon and TI3 were at the same time your argument would be really sound but season 2 regionals are not a tournament that is big enough to actually hurt the scene with a loss of viewership. Someone a few posts back listed the importance of SC2 tournaments over the course of the year and only WCS Korea Regional finals were in the top 10.
People think if something isn't helping E-Sports than its killing it but do you ever consider that the average spectator, someone who isn't one of us on TL or Reddit who doesn't analyzes things as closely as we do really care that much and are swayed by things like this?
I think the average spectator doesn't really have any allegiance to Sc2, DotA, or LoL, but if they're coming into the scene, they might just notice that there are two companies who are really pushing the envelope with respect to eSports and then this other company that sometimes has good tournaments but it's really unpredictable, disjointed, and has tonnes of problems/usually isn't very interesting event-wise.
In an eSports world in which the competition is always looking to step things up, things that don't improve the scene (and have a better chance of hurting than helping it) are absolutely bad for the scene, especially when they're part of the large-scale, developer-driven tournament of that scene. If Blizzard continues to lag behind with WCS, then other companies are just going to keep improving . That means that people will become more and more aware of the huge gap separating the International/LCS from WCS. Since LCS/International have always stepped up with every successive iteration, it absolutely matters if WCS is simply trying to preserve the status quo. This is especially true in light of the fact that there are gazillions of problems with WCS, and the only reason people are giving it a chance is to see if Blizzard will fix those problems and make the tournaments better. Every time Blizzard makes a poorly thought-out decision, they spit in the face of people hanging on to the idea that WCS is a work in progress. Usually WIP things make measurable progress at a reasonable rate. When there are two companies moving forward at several hundred times the rate of Blizzard, it's difficult to believe that Blizzard "needs more time." Blizzard isn't some indie game developer. It's fucking Blizzard.
That is where your wrong already, the spectator will watch whatever game they enjoy not which one does E-Sports better. Thinking Riot does it well to justify LoL's insane growth is a ridiculous statement. You are total ignoring when I said the problems of WCS are not even noticeable to the average viewer.
Korean Prize pools are a problem I'll give you that but region locks are debatably good or bad.
Not to mention your whole post is a huge tautology, you are just stating the same thing in every sentence so you made it impossible for me to debunk. You have to understand apart from people here on TL and Reddit, very few people really care about the wars between each E-Sports an all these littles debacles. They come for content and if it is delivered they are happy. My source for that is knowing a lot of people who watch and play different E-Sport games and they all seem to have that train of thought.
I also firmly believe its too early to not cut Blizzard any slack for trying to improve WCS, any thing they would change region lock, prize pool or scheduling wise would take effect next year and they wouldn't announce until then.
Blizzard, I don't understand. The date for TI3 was in place before WCS was even announced fellas. I mean there are already quite a few people who are either on the fence or have switched to Dota from SC. Now all of these people on the fringe have a choice: Watch the fucking superbowl of Dota, or WCS... Blizzard's explanatory post was; "Meh, Esports too big. We could have never foreseen such a thing but by the way other games do it too so deal with it chumps."
HotBid is right, this is straight up suicide. It won't kill the game but it sure as shit hurts WCS and the competitive scene.
That is where your wrong already, the spectator will watch whatever game they enjoy not which one does E-Sports better. Thinking Riot does it well to justify LoL's insane growth is a ridiculous statement. You are total ignoring when I said the problems of WCS are not even noticeable to the average viewer.
Korean Prize pools are a problem I'll give you that but region locks are debatably good or bad.
Ah yes, nobody is going to notice WCS America being practically pure Koreans...oh wait.
You have to understand apart from people here on TL and Reddit, very few people really care about the wars between each E-Sports an all these littles debacles. They come for content and if it is delivered they are happy. My source for that is knowing a lot of people who watch and play different E-Sport games and they all seem to have that train of thought.
I'd argue that most of the people who watch eSports regularly are part of some forum or another, and the biggest forums are r/starcraft and TL. I can't imagine someone even being particularly aware of WCS without at least knowing about big SC2 communities like TL or r/starcraft, particularly since most of the advertising/content for it is linked on/to TL/Reddit.
TL & r/starcraft are not drops in the pond of Sc2's Western eSports audience. They're the largest single block of it.
I also firmly believe its too early to not cut Blizzard any slack for trying to improve WCS, any thing they would change region lock, prize pool or scheduling wise would take effect next year and they wouldn't announce until then.
You do realize that this is the second year of WCS, right? Maybe if they had picked a system that actually permitted changes during the season, they wouldn't be in such a mess. Everyone pointed out the issues with region locking (pure Korean WCS AM) literally the day the info was released. and Blizzard just ignored/handwaved it. Well, they were wrong as fuck, and they have themselves to blame for being totally presumptuous and ignorant, as usual.
It's not like the International and LCS have been going on for decades, or something. They've had comparable time to Blizzard to put together a production. It just so happens that they actually took things seriously, didn't skimp where it mattered, and tried to innovate rather than do the bare minimum.
Here's the kicker of the whole situation: WCS brings nothing new to the table. Not one single aspect of WCS is innovative in the slightest, neither in production or structure. The International and LCS blow WCS out of the water because the former two actually try to improve themselves rather than play catchup with their competitors. Seriously, WCS is a blatant attempt on Blizzard's part to create a Starcraft-LCS. Fine, but LCS is actually bettering itself (and I don't even like LoL at all, tbh) with each fucking day. WCS isn't. A derivative tournaments that doesn't improve doesn't deserve any credit or benefit of the doubt. Blizzard didn't build WCS from the ground-up with a bunch of next-generation, experimental ideas that need to be smoothed out. It just face-lifted the LCS concept and implemented it poorly. That's Blizzard's fault, and it's not bad luck, either.
Blizzard needs to start taking eSports seriously rather than painting every contribution they make as some noble, sacrificial act to prove how much they love the scene. They also need to get their heads out of their asses and realize that when the customers largely want something, you don't tiptoe around for 2.5 years before delivering it. You give an ETA, acknowledge the concern, and give an actual fucking reason rather than "we're aware of the problem." Blizzard's responses to criticism just emphasize the fact that they really don't give a fuck about what their customers would prefer.
On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote: totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group
In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene.
Oh come on TB, we said that you are good for the scene and like you. You just love to shoot from the hip a lot, mostly on twitter and reddit. Sometimes you hit dead on, other times you miss. Sometimes I wish you would do it less, other times I think its really funny. At the end of the day, its good for everyone and does keep Blizzard honest.
Now the hate dog pile afterwords, that is a different story...
Nah the problem is it just seems to be such a polarizing issue, people are pretty much one extreme or the other. Though i guess that makes sense since only people with strong opinions about it would be the ones to discuss it on internet forums haha
The people on the other extreme are just flat-out wrong though, that being the difference here. They're not taking the stance for any rational reason, they're taking it because BLIZZ CAN DO NO WRONG or I DON'T LIKE DESTINY SO I SHOULD TAKE THE OPPOSITE STANCE. This is not in fact a matter of opinion, the decision is objectively bad for the tournament. "I don't mind it being on the same day" is a shitty opinion, because it doesn't take into account all the reasons why it's bad. "Oh it doesn't affect me" shows a complete lack of empathy and understanding. It affects people that matter and it will eventually affect you too in real, tangible ways that even your ignorance will begin to understand if this scene keeps getting kicked in the teeth by poor decisions.
I'm deadly serious when I say the only people who are ok with this either don't understand the issue or are too damn apathetic for their opinion to matter anyway.
Quality reasoning: "Everyone with a different opinion is an idiot". Can you imagine that people don't care for this e-sports/business side of gaming? Sure I would like to have the events on different weekends to be able to see more, but it simply does not bother me that much. I have no stocks in esport; I like to watch the games and whether dota/lol/sc have x amount of viewers does not bother me at all.
On July 24 2013 03:52 grs wrote: Quality reasoning: "Everyone with a different opinion is an idiot". Can you imagine that people don't care for this e-sports/business side of gaming? Sure I would like to have the events on different weekends to be able to see more, but it simply does not bother me that much. I have no stocks in esport; I like to watch the games and whether dota/lol/sc have x amount of viewers does not bother me at all.
Turns out that not every argument has two equally valid sides to it. If you don't care about X Y and Z then stop talking, your opinion isn't useful. The damage this will do is an objective fact that is inescapable, how much it affects you is not relevant.
On July 24 2013 03:52 grs wrote: Quality reasoning: "Everyone with a different opinion is an idiot". Can you imagine that people don't care for this e-sports/business side of gaming? Sure I would like to have the events on different weekends to be able to see more, but it simply does not bother me that much. I have no stocks in esport; I like to watch the games and whether dota/lol/sc have x amount of viewers does not bother me at all.
Turns out that not every argument has two equally valid sides to it. If you don't care about X Y and Z then stop talking, your opinion isn't useful. The damage this will do is an objective fact that is inescapable, how much it affects you is not relevant.
The problem is that there is no other side to the argument. Everyone agrees with it sucking, but for some reason we are not upset enough for you.
TB, I agree with you that we should all be furious (I'm certainly not happy about it) and it will be extremely detrimental to SC2, but what do you propose as a solution then? ASUS ROG is the week before, and I don't know what's coming up afterward (not Dreamhack, nor MLG but I dunno about IEM after this weekend), and they still have to get through another season before the grand final at Blizzcon. How do they fit in a whole other season while changing the date?
On July 24 2013 03:52 grs wrote: Quality reasoning: "Everyone with a different opinion is an idiot". Can you imagine that people don't care for this e-sports/business side of gaming? Sure I would like to have the events on different weekends to be able to see more, but it simply does not bother me that much. I have no stocks in esport; I like to watch the games and whether dota/lol/sc have x amount of viewers does not bother me at all.
Turns out that not every argument has two equally valid sides to it. If you don't care about X Y and Z then stop talking, your opinion isn't useful. The damage this will do is an objective fact that is inescapable, how much it affects you is not relevant.
Whether my opinion is useful or not, is not yours to judge. Maybe I did not get the memo that made you dictator over all opinions on all gaming related issues, but until that time, my opinion is as valid as yours.
No I'm claiming that over the course of the thread, general consensus has escalated from "blizz made a mistake, get your stuff together" which is productive and necessary for Blizz to hear (which I don't think anyone is contesting), to an inappropriate level of anger which is no longer productive.
What did you expect? The people who made their points have already stopped posting, leaving only either sides extremists to fight it out.
On July 24 2013 03:58 AgentW wrote: TB, I agree with you that we should all be furious (I'm certainly not happy about it) and it will be extremely detrimental to SC2, but what do you propose as a solution then? ASUS ROG is the week before, and I don't know what's coming up afterward (not Dreamhack, nor MLG but I dunno about IEM after this weekend), and they still have to get through another season before the grand final at Blizzcon. How do they fit in a whole other season while changing the date?
Well actually nothing is coming up afterward. Not even gamescom, there is a completely empty week between TI3 and Season 3 global finals. And since last global finals was just one week after US regional finals it cant be too short of a timeframe either.
Im usually the guy trying to find reason behind blizzards decisions but with this one i really cant find any justification besides this year WCS being too rushed and hence sloppy.
On July 24 2013 03:58 AgentW wrote: TB, I agree with you that we should all be furious (I'm certainly not happy about it) and it will be extremely detrimental to SC2, but what do you propose as a solution then? ASUS ROG is the week before, and I don't know what's coming up afterward (not Dreamhack, nor MLG but I dunno about IEM after this weekend), and they still have to get through another season before the grand final at Blizzcon. How do they fit in a whole other season while changing the date?
Well actually nothing is coming up afterward. Not even gamescom, there is a completely empty week between TI3 and Season 3 global finals. And since last global finals was just one week after US regional finals it cant be too short of a timeframe either.
Im usually the guy trying to find reason behind blizzards decisions but with this one i really cant find any justification besides this year WCS being too rushed and hence sloppy.
If that's the case, and I don't see anything to the contrary, this decision is even more stupid than I thought.
EDIT: Doesn't say much, but nothing on TL's calendar or the front page of Liquipedia. IEM shouldn't be that soon, and Dreamhack, Asus, and MLG are definitely not going to be then. What the hell...
On July 24 2013 03:52 grs wrote: Quality reasoning: "Everyone with a different opinion is an idiot". Can you imagine that people don't care for this e-sports/business side of gaming? Sure I would like to have the events on different weekends to be able to see more, but it simply does not bother me that much. I have no stocks in esport; I like to watch the games and whether dota/lol/sc have x amount of viewers does not bother me at all.
Turns out that not every argument has two equally valid sides to it. If you don't care about X Y and Z then stop talking, your opinion isn't useful. The damage this will do is an objective fact that is inescapable, how much it affects you is not relevant.
Whether my opinion is useful or not, is not yours to judge. Maybe I did not get the memo that made you dictator over all opinions on all gaming related issues, but until that time, my opinion is as valid as yours.
Your very own post basically said "i don't care", so why should your opinion matter? You're going to watch or not watch WCS either way, so why not let the people who DO care to see the eSport go one way and not the other express theirs?
On July 24 2013 03:52 grs wrote: Quality reasoning: "Everyone with a different opinion is an idiot". Can you imagine that people don't care for this e-sports/business side of gaming? Sure I would like to have the events on different weekends to be able to see more, but it simply does not bother me that much. I have no stocks in esport; I like to watch the games and whether dota/lol/sc have x amount of viewers does not bother me at all.
Turns out that not every argument has two equally valid sides to it. If you don't care about X Y and Z then stop talking, your opinion isn't useful. The damage this will do is an objective fact that is inescapable, how much it affects you is not relevant.
Whether my opinion is useful or not, is not yours to judge. Maybe I did not get the memo that made you dictator over all opinions on all gaming related issues, but until that time, my opinion is as valid as yours.
Your very own post basically said "i don't care", so why should your opinion matter? You're going to watch or not watch WCS either way, so why not let the people who DO care to see the eSport go one way and not the other express theirs?
So opinions only matter if they are against something and the more against something they are and the louder the complaints are, the more valid and important they are? I don't think so.
On July 24 2013 03:58 AgentW wrote: TB, I agree with you that we should all be furious (I'm certainly not happy about it) and it will be extremely detrimental to SC2, but what do you propose as a solution then? ASUS ROG is the week before, and I don't know what's coming up afterward (not Dreamhack, nor MLG but I dunno about IEM after this weekend), and they still have to get through another season before the grand final at Blizzcon. How do they fit in a whole other season while changing the date?
Well actually nothing is coming up afterward. Not even gamescom, there is a completely empty week between TI3 and Season 3 global finals. And since last global finals was just one week after US regional finals it cant be too short of a timeframe either.
Im usually the guy trying to find reason behind blizzards decisions but with this one i really cant find any justification besides this year WCS being too rushed and hence sloppy.
If that's the case, and I don't see anything to the contrary, this decision is even more stupid than I thought.
EDIT: Doesn't say much, but nothing on TL's calendar or the front page of Liquipedia. IEM shouldn't be that soon, and Dreamhack, Asus, and MLG are definitely not going to be then. What the hell...
NASL is running the world of tanks finals that next weekend, so they won't be free. That means at least NA has to happen. I don't know what ESL is doing, but they might want more than a week to prepare for Gamescon, since they do run the LSC during the week.
On July 24 2013 03:58 AgentW wrote: TB, I agree with you that we should all be furious (I'm certainly not happy about it) and it will be extremely detrimental to SC2, but what do you propose as a solution then? ASUS ROG is the week before, and I don't know what's coming up afterward (not Dreamhack, nor MLG but I dunno about IEM after this weekend), and they still have to get through another season before the grand final at Blizzcon. How do they fit in a whole other season while changing the date?
Well actually nothing is coming up afterward. Not even gamescom, there is a completely empty week between TI3 and Season 3 global finals. And since last global finals was just one week after US regional finals it cant be too short of a timeframe either.
Im usually the guy trying to find reason behind blizzards decisions but with this one i really cant find any justification besides this year WCS being too rushed and hence sloppy.
If that's the case, and I don't see anything to the contrary, this decision is even more stupid than I thought.
EDIT: Doesn't say much, but nothing on TL's calendar or the front page of Liquipedia. IEM shouldn't be that soon, and Dreamhack, Asus, and MLG are definitely not going to be then. What the hell...
NASL is running the world of tanks finals that next weekend, so they won't be free. That means at least NA has to happen. I don't know what ESL is doing, but they might want more than a week to prepare for Gamescon, since they do run the LSC during the week.
Accepting that EU and AM can't do it, why not let KR go later? I consider myself a huge SC2 fan, but I can't watch 20 hours of SC2 in a day due to a combination of fatigue and commitments, at worst ease it to 13 hours or something.
On July 24 2013 03:58 AgentW wrote: TB, I agree with you that we should all be furious (I'm certainly not happy about it) and it will be extremely detrimental to SC2, but what do you propose as a solution then? ASUS ROG is the week before, and I don't know what's coming up afterward (not Dreamhack, nor MLG but I dunno about IEM after this weekend), and they still have to get through another season before the grand final at Blizzcon. How do they fit in a whole other season while changing the date?
Well actually nothing is coming up afterward. Not even gamescom, there is a completely empty week between TI3 and Season 3 global finals. And since last global finals was just one week after US regional finals it cant be too short of a timeframe either.
Im usually the guy trying to find reason behind blizzards decisions but with this one i really cant find any justification besides this year WCS being too rushed and hence sloppy.
That would be 17- 18 Aug. Gamescom starts at the 23. August. I don't think 4 days is enough for the teams to sort out visas and flights. The only thing you could do it is probably WCS EU but the time would also be very short.
On July 24 2013 03:58 AgentW wrote: TB, I agree with you that we should all be furious (I'm certainly not happy about it) and it will be extremely detrimental to SC2, but what do you propose as a solution then? ASUS ROG is the week before, and I don't know what's coming up afterward (not Dreamhack, nor MLG but I dunno about IEM after this weekend), and they still have to get through another season before the grand final at Blizzcon. How do they fit in a whole other season while changing the date?
Well actually nothing is coming up afterward. Not even gamescom, there is a completely empty week between TI3 and Season 3 global finals. And since last global finals was just one week after US regional finals it cant be too short of a timeframe either.
Im usually the guy trying to find reason behind blizzards decisions but with this one i really cant find any justification besides this year WCS being too rushed and hence sloppy.
If that's the case, and I don't see anything to the contrary, this decision is even more stupid than I thought.
EDIT: Doesn't say much, but nothing on TL's calendar or the front page of Liquipedia. IEM shouldn't be that soon, and Dreamhack, Asus, and MLG are definitely not going to be then. What the hell...
NASL is running the world of tanks finals that next weekend, so they won't be free. That means at least NA has to happen. I don't know what ESL is doing, but they might want more than a week to prepare for Gamescon, since they do run the LSC during the week.
Accepting that EU and AM can't do it, why not let KR go later? I consider myself a huge SC2 fan, but I can't watch 20 hours of SC2 in a day due to a combination of fatigue and commitments, at worst ease it to 13 hours or something.
I checked GOM's(I think they are doing the finals) calendar and I think they are running world of tanks stuff that weekend too.
On July 24 2013 03:58 AgentW wrote: TB, I agree with you that we should all be furious (I'm certainly not happy about it) and it will be extremely detrimental to SC2, but what do you propose as a solution then? ASUS ROG is the week before, and I don't know what's coming up afterward (not Dreamhack, nor MLG but I dunno about IEM after this weekend), and they still have to get through another season before the grand final at Blizzcon. How do they fit in a whole other season while changing the date?
Well actually nothing is coming up afterward. Not even gamescom, there is a completely empty week between TI3 and Season 3 global finals. And since last global finals was just one week after US regional finals it cant be too short of a timeframe either.
Im usually the guy trying to find reason behind blizzards decisions but with this one i really cant find any justification besides this year WCS being too rushed and hence sloppy.
That would be 17- 18 Aug. Gamescom starts at the 23. August. I don't think 4 days is enough for the teams to sort out visas and flights. The only thing you could do it is probably WCS EU but the time would also be very short.
Also, this guy. No one should ever be forced to buy a plane ticket with 4 days notice. It is pure suffering.
On July 24 2013 03:58 AgentW wrote: TB, I agree with you that we should all be furious (I'm certainly not happy about it) and it will be extremely detrimental to SC2, but what do you propose as a solution then? ASUS ROG is the week before, and I don't know what's coming up afterward (not Dreamhack, nor MLG but I dunno about IEM after this weekend), and they still have to get through another season before the grand final at Blizzcon. How do they fit in a whole other season while changing the date?
Well actually nothing is coming up afterward. Not even gamescom, there is a completely empty week between TI3 and Season 3 global finals. And since last global finals was just one week after US regional finals it cant be too short of a timeframe either.
Im usually the guy trying to find reason behind blizzards decisions but with this one i really cant find any justification besides this year WCS being too rushed and hence sloppy.
If that's the case, and I don't see anything to the contrary, this decision is even more stupid than I thought.
EDIT: Doesn't say much, but nothing on TL's calendar or the front page of Liquipedia. IEM shouldn't be that soon, and Dreamhack, Asus, and MLG are definitely not going to be then. What the hell...
NASL is running the world of tanks finals that next weekend, so they won't be free. That means at least NA has to happen. I don't know what ESL is doing, but they might want more than a week to prepare for Gamescon, since they do run the LSC during the week.
Accepting that EU and AM can't do it, why not let KR go later? I consider myself a huge SC2 fan, but I can't watch 20 hours of SC2 in a day due to a combination of fatigue and commitments, at worst ease it to 13 hours or something.
I checked GOM's(I think they are doing the finals) calendar and I think they are running world of tanks stuff that weekend too.
Okay, so it's as I thought when the news broke yesterday: horribly organized leading to unfortunate scheduling.
On July 24 2013 03:58 AgentW wrote: TB, I agree with you that we should all be furious (I'm certainly not happy about it) and it will be extremely detrimental to SC2, but what do you propose as a solution then? ASUS ROG is the week before, and I don't know what's coming up afterward (not Dreamhack, nor MLG but I dunno about IEM after this weekend), and they still have to get through another season before the grand final at Blizzcon. How do they fit in a whole other season while changing the date?
Well actually nothing is coming up afterward. Not even gamescom, there is a completely empty week between TI3 and Season 3 global finals. And since last global finals was just one week after US regional finals it cant be too short of a timeframe either.
Im usually the guy trying to find reason behind blizzards decisions but with this one i really cant find any justification besides this year WCS being too rushed and hence sloppy.
If that's the case, and I don't see anything to the contrary, this decision is even more stupid than I thought.
EDIT: Doesn't say much, but nothing on TL's calendar or the front page of Liquipedia. IEM shouldn't be that soon, and Dreamhack, Asus, and MLG are definitely not going to be then. What the hell...
NASL is running the world of tanks finals that next weekend, so they won't be free. That means at least NA has to happen. I don't know what ESL is doing, but they might want more than a week to prepare for Gamescon, since they do run the LSC during the week.
OK, there you have it - world of tanks is the root of all evil in esports. I bet thats why tasteless lost his passion too - he went to see a witch that prophecied he will be casting world of tanks one day.
On July 24 2013 03:58 AgentW wrote: TB, I agree with you that we should all be furious (I'm certainly not happy about it) and it will be extremely detrimental to SC2, but what do you propose as a solution then? ASUS ROG is the week before, and I don't know what's coming up afterward (not Dreamhack, nor MLG but I dunno about IEM after this weekend), and they still have to get through another season before the grand final at Blizzcon. How do they fit in a whole other season while changing the date?
Well actually nothing is coming up afterward. Not even gamescom, there is a completely empty week between TI3 and Season 3 global finals. And since last global finals was just one week after US regional finals it cant be too short of a timeframe either.
Im usually the guy trying to find reason behind blizzards decisions but with this one i really cant find any justification besides this year WCS being too rushed and hence sloppy.
If that's the case, and I don't see anything to the contrary, this decision is even more stupid than I thought.
EDIT: Doesn't say much, but nothing on TL's calendar or the front page of Liquipedia. IEM shouldn't be that soon, and Dreamhack, Asus, and MLG are definitely not going to be then. What the hell...
NASL is running the world of tanks finals that next weekend, so they won't be free. That means at least NA has to happen. I don't know what ESL is doing, but they might want more than a week to prepare for Gamescon, since they do run the LSC during the week.
Accepting that EU and AM can't do it, why not let KR go later? I consider myself a huge SC2 fan, but I can't watch 20 hours of SC2 in a day due to a combination of fatigue and commitments, at worst ease it to 13 hours or something.
I checked GOM's(I think they are doing the finals) calendar and I think they are running world of tanks stuff that weekend too.
Okay, so it's as I thought when the news broke yesterday: horribly organized leading to unfortunate scheduling.
I mean, when it was first launched by GOM, did we ever think that we would have to care about the World of Tanks finals or that it would around with the regional finals season 2 of WCS. Oh how things change.
On July 24 2013 03:58 AgentW wrote: TB, I agree with you that we should all be furious (I'm certainly not happy about it) and it will be extremely detrimental to SC2, but what do you propose as a solution then? ASUS ROG is the week before, and I don't know what's coming up afterward (not Dreamhack, nor MLG but I dunno about IEM after this weekend), and they still have to get through another season before the grand final at Blizzcon. How do they fit in a whole other season while changing the date?
Well actually nothing is coming up afterward. Not even gamescom, there is a completely empty week between TI3 and Season 3 global finals. And since last global finals was just one week after US regional finals it cant be too short of a timeframe either.
Im usually the guy trying to find reason behind blizzards decisions but with this one i really cant find any justification besides this year WCS being too rushed and hence sloppy.
If that's the case, and I don't see anything to the contrary, this decision is even more stupid than I thought.
EDIT: Doesn't say much, but nothing on TL's calendar or the front page of Liquipedia. IEM shouldn't be that soon, and Dreamhack, Asus, and MLG are definitely not going to be then. What the hell...
NASL is running the world of tanks finals that next weekend, so they won't be free. That means at least NA has to happen. I don't know what ESL is doing, but they might want more than a week to prepare for Gamescon, since they do run the LSC during the week.
Accepting that EU and AM can't do it, why not let KR go later? I consider myself a huge SC2 fan, but I can't watch 20 hours of SC2 in a day due to a combination of fatigue and commitments, at worst ease it to 13 hours or something.
I checked GOM's(I think they are doing the finals) calendar and I think they are running world of tanks stuff that weekend too.
Okay, so it's as I thought when the news broke yesterday: horribly organized leading to unfortunate scheduling.
I mean, when it was first launched by GOM, did we ever think that we would have to care about the World of Tanks finals or that it would around with the regional finals season 2 of WCS. Oh how things change.
Was it scheduled at that point? If so, it's inexcusable.
On July 24 2013 03:52 grs wrote: Quality reasoning: "Everyone with a different opinion is an idiot". Can you imagine that people don't care for this e-sports/business side of gaming? Sure I would like to have the events on different weekends to be able to see more, but it simply does not bother me that much. I have no stocks in esport; I like to watch the games and whether dota/lol/sc have x amount of viewers does not bother me at all.
Turns out that not every argument has two equally valid sides to it. If you don't care about X Y and Z then stop talking, your opinion isn't useful. The damage this will do is an objective fact that is inescapable, how much it affects you is not relevant.
Whether my opinion is useful or not, is not yours to judge. Maybe I did not get the memo that made you dictator over all opinions on all gaming related issues, but until that time, my opinion is as valid as yours.
Your very own post basically said "i don't care", so why should your opinion matter? You're going to watch or not watch WCS either way, so why not let the people who DO care to see the eSport go one way and not the other express theirs?
So opinions only matter if they are against something and the more against something they are and the louder the complaints are, the more valid and important they are? I don't think so.
No, opinions that are for OR against something matter/are valid. However, in this case, there is literally no plus side to having WCS being held in the fashion it will be, on the same weekend as the largest esport event yet, so why would anyone be for it? i guess you could call "I dont care" an opinion if you want, but to me it's simply acceptance
On July 24 2013 03:58 AgentW wrote: TB, I agree with you that we should all be furious (I'm certainly not happy about it) and it will be extremely detrimental to SC2, but what do you propose as a solution then? ASUS ROG is the week before, and I don't know what's coming up afterward (not Dreamhack, nor MLG but I dunno about IEM after this weekend), and they still have to get through another season before the grand final at Blizzcon. How do they fit in a whole other season while changing the date?
Well actually nothing is coming up afterward. Not even gamescom, there is a completely empty week between TI3 and Season 3 global finals. And since last global finals was just one week after US regional finals it cant be too short of a timeframe either.
Im usually the guy trying to find reason behind blizzards decisions but with this one i really cant find any justification besides this year WCS being too rushed and hence sloppy.
If that's the case, and I don't see anything to the contrary, this decision is even more stupid than I thought.
EDIT: Doesn't say much, but nothing on TL's calendar or the front page of Liquipedia. IEM shouldn't be that soon, and Dreamhack, Asus, and MLG are definitely not going to be then. What the hell...
NASL is running the world of tanks finals that next weekend, so they won't be free. That means at least NA has to happen. I don't know what ESL is doing, but they might want more than a week to prepare for Gamescon, since they do run the LSC during the week.
Accepting that EU and AM can't do it, why not let KR go later? I consider myself a huge SC2 fan, but I can't watch 20 hours of SC2 in a day due to a combination of fatigue and commitments, at worst ease it to 13 hours or something.
I checked GOM's(I think they are doing the finals) calendar and I think they are running world of tanks stuff that weekend too.
Okay, so it's as I thought when the news broke yesterday: horribly organized leading to unfortunate scheduling.
I mean, when it was first launched by GOM, did we ever think that we would have to care about the World of Tanks finals or that it would around with the regional finals season 2 of WCS. Oh how things change.
Was it scheduled at that point? If so, it's inexcusable.
I don't think so. NASL started doing World of Tanks right before they took over WCS NA(from what Bitter said, they found out as they were preparing to start broadcasting). Both leagues(WoT and WCS) started around the same time in NA, so they were likely working out their finals at the same time. It likely that WoT just picked that weekend first due to the TI3.
It's difficult to know how to feel on this. Brood War was so easy because it was all run by Korean and it never mattered when those happened, Korean Brood War was run on their own schedule and it always worked out nicely. Now we get to SC2, it's on a global scale and Blizzard run. SC2 is now on this level where they must compete with some fierce opponents to be a top game among the global community. I guess that's why I miss the GSL because it wasn't as big a deal if the GSL happened on the same weekend. But again since it's global, Blizzard has to be held responsible for this since they scheduled the tournament dates second.
I think in the end Starcraft 2 will be my choice event that weekended. There will always be scheduling conflicts on all levels of sports. Blizzard has to do what they got to do.But I have a question. Shouldn't we all be happy eSports has grown so much that we are overwhelmed with grand events that scheduling conflicts actually occur? This isn't the death of SC2 and like I said, Blizzard has a responsibility to run their events in a timely fashion and so I can't hate them for doing their job.
On July 24 2013 03:58 AgentW wrote: TB, I agree with you that we should all be furious (I'm certainly not happy about it) and it will be extremely detrimental to SC2, but what do you propose as a solution then? ASUS ROG is the week before, and I don't know what's coming up afterward (not Dreamhack, nor MLG but I dunno about IEM after this weekend), and they still have to get through another season before the grand final at Blizzcon. How do they fit in a whole other season while changing the date?
Well actually nothing is coming up afterward. Not even gamescom, there is a completely empty week between TI3 and Season 3 global finals. And since last global finals was just one week after US regional finals it cant be too short of a timeframe either.
Im usually the guy trying to find reason behind blizzards decisions but with this one i really cant find any justification besides this year WCS being too rushed and hence sloppy.
If that's the case, and I don't see anything to the contrary, this decision is even more stupid than I thought.
EDIT: Doesn't say much, but nothing on TL's calendar or the front page of Liquipedia. IEM shouldn't be that soon, and Dreamhack, Asus, and MLG are definitely not going to be then. What the hell...
NASL is running the world of tanks finals that next weekend, so they won't be free. That means at least NA has to happen. I don't know what ESL is doing, but they might want more than a week to prepare for Gamescon, since they do run the LSC during the week.
Accepting that EU and AM can't do it, why not let KR go later? I consider myself a huge SC2 fan, but I can't watch 20 hours of SC2 in a day due to a combination of fatigue and commitments, at worst ease it to 13 hours or something.
I checked GOM's(I think they are doing the finals) calendar and I think they are running world of tanks stuff that weekend too.
Okay, so it's as I thought when the news broke yesterday: horribly organized leading to unfortunate scheduling.
I mean, when it was first launched by GOM, did we ever think that we would have to care about the World of Tanks finals or that it would around with the regional finals season 2 of WCS. Oh how things change.
Was it scheduled at that point? If so, it's inexcusable.
I don't think so. NASL started doing World of Tanks right before they took over WCS NA. Both leagues(WoT and WCS) started around the same time in NA, so they were likely working out their finals at the same time. It likely that WoT just picked that weekend first due to the TI3.
I thought you were talking about GOM WoT that weekend. I know you mentioned NASL has WoT that weekend, but does GOM have anything going on?
Well actually nothing is coming up afterward. Not even gamescom, there is a completely empty week between TI3 and Season 3 global finals. And since last global finals was just one week after US regional finals it cant be too short of a timeframe either.
Im usually the guy trying to find reason behind blizzards decisions but with this one i really cant find any justification besides this year WCS being too rushed and hence sloppy.
If that's the case, and I don't see anything to the contrary, this decision is even more stupid than I thought.
EDIT: Doesn't say much, but nothing on TL's calendar or the front page of Liquipedia. IEM shouldn't be that soon, and Dreamhack, Asus, and MLG are definitely not going to be then. What the hell...
NASL is running the world of tanks finals that next weekend, so they won't be free. That means at least NA has to happen. I don't know what ESL is doing, but they might want more than a week to prepare for Gamescon, since they do run the LSC during the week.
Accepting that EU and AM can't do it, why not let KR go later? I consider myself a huge SC2 fan, but I can't watch 20 hours of SC2 in a day due to a combination of fatigue and commitments, at worst ease it to 13 hours or something.
I checked GOM's(I think they are doing the finals) calendar and I think they are running world of tanks stuff that weekend too.
Okay, so it's as I thought when the news broke yesterday: horribly organized leading to unfortunate scheduling.
I mean, when it was first launched by GOM, did we ever think that we would have to care about the World of Tanks finals or that it would around with the regional finals season 2 of WCS. Oh how things change.
Was it scheduled at that point? If so, it's inexcusable.
I don't think so. NASL started doing World of Tanks right before they took over WCS NA. Both leagues(WoT and WCS) started around the same time in NA, so they were likely working out their finals at the same time. It likely that WoT just picked that weekend first due to the TI3.
I thought you were talking about GOM WoT that weekend. I know you mentioned NASL has WoT that weekend, but does GOM have anything going on?
They just have a bunch of matches set up for that day and who knows what else, but Tasteless and Artosiss cast those. I think they also do a Dota 2 league, but I could be wrong and another company does that. I don't follow the Korean Dota 2 scene(though I hear it is super amusing, all Meepo)
I don't necessarily share the same anger or vitriol towards Blizzard that most (rightfully) have, I'm just genuinely dumbfounded at this decision (and this dumbfounded feeling has been happening A LOT nowadays with respect to the guys from Irvine).
On the bright side, more potential new comers to DOTA2.
Not sure it helps us in the long run if we try to find a free weekend so we can boost the viewer numbers with loads of people who are watching sc2 just beause there is nothing else on. In the future there will always be a conflict with one of the big games anyways. If a portion of the stream numbers have sc2 as 2, 3, 4 on the list of games then so be it. Why kid our selfs? For me sc2 is n1 but I accept that not everyone feels the same.
On July 24 2013 06:33 Fjodorov wrote: Not sure it helps us in the long run if we try to find a free weekend so we can boost the viewer numbers with loads of people who are watching sc2 just beause there is nothing else on. In the future there will always be a conflict with one of the big games anyways. If a portion of the stream numbers have sc2 as 2, 3, 4 on the list of games then so be it. Why kid our selfs? For me sc2 is n1 but I accept that not everyone feels the same.
As said so many times in this thread: it's not about just another tournament, it's about the biggest esport event in history...
later to this. But I don't get this hate thing. Is there really a considerable number of overlapped audience? What's the conflict? My only complain is that I need to stay wake all days for 3 events.
I find it hilarious that Riot manages to avoid schedule overlaps and yet Blizzard is the one giving excuses. This is further proof how rushed the entire WCS is. Blizzard can't even get their own 3 regions to run on a same cohesive timeline ffs
On July 24 2013 06:33 Fjodorov wrote: Not sure it helps us in the long run if we try to find a free weekend so we can boost the viewer numbers with loads of people who are watching sc2 just beause there is nothing else on. In the future there will always be a conflict with one of the big games anyways. If a portion of the stream numbers have sc2 as 2, 3, 4 on the list of games then so be it. Why kid our selfs? For me sc2 is n1 but I accept that not everyone feels the same.
As said so many times in this thread: it's not about just another tournament, it's about the biggest esport event in history...
It's the biggest MOBA event in history. What's does that got to be with Starcraft. Do most sc2 fan watch Dota2 or lol, like ever?
On July 24 2013 06:33 Fjodorov wrote: Not sure it helps us in the long run if we try to find a free weekend so we can boost the viewer numbers with loads of people who are watching sc2 just beause there is nothing else on. In the future there will always be a conflict with one of the big games anyways. If a portion of the stream numbers have sc2 as 2, 3, 4 on the list of games then so be it. Why kid our selfs? For me sc2 is n1 but I accept that not everyone feels the same.
As said so many times in this thread: it's not about just another tournament, it's about the biggest esport event in history...
It's the biggest MOBA event in history. What's does that got to be with Starcraft. Do most sc2 fan watch Dota2 or lol, like ever?
Especially with it's WC3 background Dota has a lot of people that also play/follow starcraft. Also you have many people that follow a lot of esport in generel. Both these groups are huge in my opinion and when you have the choice i think (as it was stated a lot in this thread) people that have the slightest interest in dota will watch TI3 cause it's the biggest thing in esport
On July 24 2013 06:33 Fjodorov wrote: Not sure it helps us in the long run if we try to find a free weekend so we can boost the viewer numbers with loads of people who are watching sc2 just beause there is nothing else on. In the future there will always be a conflict with one of the big games anyways. If a portion of the stream numbers have sc2 as 2, 3, 4 on the list of games then so be it. Why kid our selfs? For me sc2 is n1 but I accept that not everyone feels the same.
As said so many times in this thread: it's not about just another tournament, it's about the biggest esport event in history...
It's the biggest MOBA event in history. What's does that got to be with Starcraft. Do most sc2 fan watch Dota2 or lol, like ever?
It's a spectacle. Most people who won't normally watch Dota2 will watch The International due to the hype and gigantic prize pool. That's like asking why people watch the Super Bowl when they don't even like the NFL or know what is going on.
Well I will watch Dota2 ofc and I support SC2 the only way that exists. I run a World of Warcraft subscription and with this I do more for WCS than they actually deserve. And I believe I do more to help SC2 eSport than all the stream viewers.
Sigh. Yea this is awful for the scene and Blizz is fucking up, no one will deny that. But then TB comes out of nowhere blubbering and shouting, absolutism, etc and embarrasses himself again.
On July 24 2013 06:33 Fjodorov wrote: Not sure it helps us in the long run if we try to find a free weekend so we can boost the viewer numbers with loads of people who are watching sc2 just beause there is nothing else on. In the future there will always be a conflict with one of the big games anyways. If a portion of the stream numbers have sc2 as 2, 3, 4 on the list of games then so be it. Why kid our selfs? For me sc2 is n1 but I accept that not everyone feels the same.
As said so many times in this thread: it's not about just another tournament, it's about the biggest esport event in history...
It's the biggest MOBA event in history. What's does that got to be with Starcraft. Do most sc2 fan watch Dota2 or lol, like ever?
Especially with it's WC3 background Dota has a lot of people that also play/follow starcraft. Also you have many people that follow a lot of esport in generel. Both these groups are huge in my opinion and when you have the choice i think (as it was stated a lot in this thread) people that have the slightest interest in dota will watch TI3 cause it's the biggest thing in esport
Warcraft 3 esports fans were never big fans of dota in general. I guess you are talking about people that just played custom games.
On July 24 2013 06:33 Fjodorov wrote: Not sure it helps us in the long run if we try to find a free weekend so we can boost the viewer numbers with loads of people who are watching sc2 just beause there is nothing else on. In the future there will always be a conflict with one of the big games anyways. If a portion of the stream numbers have sc2 as 2, 3, 4 on the list of games then so be it. Why kid our selfs? For me sc2 is n1 but I accept that not everyone feels the same.
As said so many times in this thread: it's not about just another tournament, it's about the biggest esport event in history...
It's the biggest MOBA event in history. What's does that got to be with Starcraft. Do most sc2 fan watch Dota2 or lol, like ever?
Especially with it's WC3 background Dota has a lot of people that also play/follow starcraft. Also you have many people that follow a lot of esport in generel. Both these groups are huge in my opinion and when you have the choice i think (as it was stated a lot in this thread) people that have the slightest interest in dota will watch TI3 cause it's the biggest thing in esport
Warcraft 3 esports fans were never big fans of dota in general. I guess you are talking about people that just played custom games.
The most of them played it at least with friends from time to time, so they know the game. Taking into consideration that this is the biggest shit ever i think most of them will also watch it
On July 24 2013 06:33 Fjodorov wrote: Not sure it helps us in the long run if we try to find a free weekend so we can boost the viewer numbers with loads of people who are watching sc2 just beause there is nothing else on. In the future there will always be a conflict with one of the big games anyways. If a portion of the stream numbers have sc2 as 2, 3, 4 on the list of games then so be it. Why kid our selfs? For me sc2 is n1 but I accept that not everyone feels the same.
As said so many times in this thread: it's not about just another tournament, it's about the biggest esport event in history...
It's the biggest MOBA event in history. What's does that got to be with Starcraft. Do most sc2 fan watch Dota2 or lol, like ever?
Especially with it's WC3 background Dota has a lot of people that also play/follow starcraft. Also you have many people that follow a lot of esport in generel. Both these groups are huge in my opinion and when you have the choice i think (as it was stated a lot in this thread) people that have the slightest interest in dota will watch TI3 cause it's the biggest thing in esport
I get the point. But i doubt the number of overlapped audience can be significant. I myself only follow at least same kind of game, like SC1, War3, SC2. Then again, it's only me. Maybe there indeed are many people following both.
On July 24 2013 06:44 Spectreman wrote: They need an alternative stream to twitch, serious.
TI3 will be free to watch ingame and will be streamed on Youtube. Twitch will be strained, but I don't think it'll flat out die. Not unless there's Jaedong v Bogus and Na'Vi vs Alliance going on at the same time, anyway.
On July 24 2013 06:33 Fjodorov wrote: Not sure it helps us in the long run if we try to find a free weekend so we can boost the viewer numbers with loads of people who are watching sc2 just beause there is nothing else on. In the future there will always be a conflict with one of the big games anyways. If a portion of the stream numbers have sc2 as 2, 3, 4 on the list of games then so be it. Why kid our selfs? For me sc2 is n1 but I accept that not everyone feels the same.
As said so many times in this thread: it's not about just another tournament, it's about the biggest esport event in history...
It's the biggest MOBA event in history. What's does that got to be with Starcraft. Do most sc2 fan watch Dota2 or lol, like ever?
Especially with it's WC3 background Dota has a lot of people that also play/follow starcraft. Also you have many people that follow a lot of esport in generel. Both these groups are huge in my opinion and when you have the choice i think (as it was stated a lot in this thread) people that have the slightest interest in dota will watch TI3 cause it's the biggest thing in esport
I get the point. But i doubt the number of overlapped audience can be significant. I myself only follow at least same kind of game, like SC1, War3, SC2. Then again, it's only me. Maybe there indeed are many people following both.
On July 24 2013 11:08 Daralii wrote: TI3 will be free to watch ingame and will be streamed on Youtube. Twitch will be strained, but I don't think it'll flat out die. Not unless there's Jaedong v Bogus and Na'Vi vs Alliance going on at the same time, anyway.
Just an example of a person following both. There is a reason teamliquid decided to cover DotA 2 in particular. Sc2 got me into e-sports, DotA 2 is a big reason i'm staying. I still watch a lot more sc2 than dota but for me The International will always be the most exciting thing of the year for a lot of reasons. Yes the pricepool is an important part but also the fact that I had the chance to contribute 2,50$ to it.
Edit: my point; The overlapping might be a lot more significant than some people might think.
On July 24 2013 06:33 Fjodorov wrote: Not sure it helps us in the long run if we try to find a free weekend so we can boost the viewer numbers with loads of people who are watching sc2 just beause there is nothing else on. In the future there will always be a conflict with one of the big games anyways. If a portion of the stream numbers have sc2 as 2, 3, 4 on the list of games then so be it. Why kid our selfs? For me sc2 is n1 but I accept that not everyone feels the same.
As said so many times in this thread: it's not about just another tournament, it's about the biggest esport event in history...
It's the biggest MOBA event in history. What's does that got to be with Starcraft. Do most sc2 fan watch Dota2 or lol, like ever?
I play SC2 and LoL, and am subscribed to the ogn lol, proleague, and osl channels. Never played a game of Dota in my life but I watched all of TI2 last year and I will watch it again this year regardless of what SC2 or LoL is at the same time
On July 24 2013 06:33 Fjodorov wrote: Not sure it helps us in the long run if we try to find a free weekend so we can boost the viewer numbers with loads of people who are watching sc2 just beause there is nothing else on. In the future there will always be a conflict with one of the big games anyways. If a portion of the stream numbers have sc2 as 2, 3, 4 on the list of games then so be it. Why kid our selfs? For me sc2 is n1 but I accept that not everyone feels the same.
As said so many times in this thread: it's not about just another tournament, it's about the biggest esport event in history...
It's the biggest MOBA event in history. What's does that got to be with Starcraft. Do most sc2 fan watch Dota2 or lol, like ever?
Especially with it's WC3 background Dota has a lot of people that also play/follow starcraft. Also you have many people that follow a lot of esport in generel. Both these groups are huge in my opinion and when you have the choice i think (as it was stated a lot in this thread) people that have the slightest interest in dota will watch TI3 cause it's the biggest thing in esport
I get the point. But i doubt the number of overlapped audience can be significant. I myself only follow at least same kind of game, like SC1, War3, SC2. Then again, it's only me. Maybe there indeed are many people following both.
On July 24 2013 11:08 Daralii wrote: TI3 will be free to watch ingame and will be streamed on Youtube. Twitch will be strained, but I don't think it'll flat out die. Not unless there's Jaedong v Bogus and Na'Vi vs Alliance going on at the same time, anyway.
Just an example of a person following both. There is a reason teamliquid decided to cover DotA 2 in particular. Sc2 got me into e-sports, DotA 2 is a big reason i'm staying. I still watch a lot more sc2 than dota but for me The International will always be the most exciting thing of the year for a lot of reasons. Yes the pricepool is an important part but also the fact that I had the chance to contribute 2,50$ to it.
Edit: my point; The overlapping might be a lot more significant than some people might think.
Only WCS NA will have big overlap with TI3. If you want to watch WCS EU and KR, you should still be able to watch the large majority of it since they're gonna be in different timezone.
On July 24 2013 06:33 Fjodorov wrote: Not sure it helps us in the long run if we try to find a free weekend so we can boost the viewer numbers with loads of people who are watching sc2 just beause there is nothing else on. In the future there will always be a conflict with one of the big games anyways. If a portion of the stream numbers have sc2 as 2, 3, 4 on the list of games then so be it. Why kid our selfs? For me sc2 is n1 but I accept that not everyone feels the same.
As said so many times in this thread: it's not about just another tournament, it's about the biggest esport event in history...
It's the biggest MOBA event in history. What's does that got to be with Starcraft. Do most sc2 fan watch Dota2 or lol, like ever?
Especially with it's WC3 background Dota has a lot of people that also play/follow starcraft. Also you have many people that follow a lot of esport in generel. Both these groups are huge in my opinion and when you have the choice i think (as it was stated a lot in this thread) people that have the slightest interest in dota will watch TI3 cause it's the biggest thing in esport
I get the point. But i doubt the number of overlapped audience can be significant. I myself only follow at least same kind of game, like SC1, War3, SC2. Then again, it's only me. Maybe there indeed are many people following both.
On July 24 2013 11:08 Daralii wrote: TI3 will be free to watch ingame and will be streamed on Youtube. Twitch will be strained, but I don't think it'll flat out die. Not unless there's Jaedong v Bogus and Na'Vi vs Alliance going on at the same time, anyway.
Just an example of a person following both. There is a reason teamliquid decided to cover DotA 2 in particular. Sc2 got me into e-sports, DotA 2 is a big reason i'm staying. I still watch a lot more sc2 than dota but for me The International will always be the most exciting thing of the year for a lot of reasons. Yes the pricepool is an important part but also the fact that I had the chance to contribute 2,50$ to it.
Edit: my point; The overlapping might be a lot more significant than some people might think.
Only WCS NA will have big overlap with TI3. If you want to watch WCS EU and KR, you should still be able to watch the large majority of it since they're gonna be in different timezone.
But such squeezed timeline is still a big problem. Why would they put it all together. Its online event, not exactly like a offline carnival. Who would stay awake 20 hrs for games. Geezzz.
On July 24 2013 06:33 Fjodorov wrote: Not sure it helps us in the long run if we try to find a free weekend so we can boost the viewer numbers with loads of people who are watching sc2 just beause there is nothing else on. In the future there will always be a conflict with one of the big games anyways. If a portion of the stream numbers have sc2 as 2, 3, 4 on the list of games then so be it. Why kid our selfs? For me sc2 is n1 but I accept that not everyone feels the same.
As said so many times in this thread: it's not about just another tournament, it's about the biggest esport event in history...
It's the biggest MOBA event in history. What's does that got to be with Starcraft. Do most sc2 fan watch Dota2 or lol, like ever?
Especially with it's WC3 background Dota has a lot of people that also play/follow starcraft. Also you have many people that follow a lot of esport in generel. Both these groups are huge in my opinion and when you have the choice i think (as it was stated a lot in this thread) people that have the slightest interest in dota will watch TI3 cause it's the biggest thing in esport
I get the point. But i doubt the number of overlapped audience can be significant. I myself only follow at least same kind of game, like SC1, War3, SC2. Then again, it's only me. Maybe there indeed are many people following both.
On July 24 2013 11:08 Daralii wrote: TI3 will be free to watch ingame and will be streamed on Youtube. Twitch will be strained, but I don't think it'll flat out die. Not unless there's Jaedong v Bogus and Na'Vi vs Alliance going on at the same time, anyway.
Just an example of a person following both. There is a reason teamliquid decided to cover DotA 2 in particular. Sc2 got me into e-sports, DotA 2 is a big reason i'm staying. I still watch a lot more sc2 than dota but for me The International will always be the most exciting thing of the year for a lot of reasons. Yes the pricepool is an important part but also the fact that I had the chance to contribute 2,50$ to it.
Edit: my point; The overlapping might be a lot more significant than some people might think.
Only WCS NA will have big overlap with TI3. If you want to watch WCS EU and KR, you should still be able to watch the large majority of it since they're gonna be in different timezone.
Sorry I guess that was a little bit inarticulate. I was just talking about the overlapping audience as in people who watch both sc2 and dota.
gah this thread is evil ... Now I am actually intrigued and gonna watch TI alongside WCS. That tournament better be worth as much as people make it out to be on here. I'll just convince myself that the event hurts Valves pocket more then it gains them and I am good.
On July 24 2013 12:39 FeyFey wrote: gah this thread is evil ... Now I am actually intrigued and gonna watch TI alongside WCS. That tournament better be worth as much as people make it out to be on here. I'll just convince myself that the event hurts Valves pocket more then it gains them and I am good.
The community already paid like $4 million for the event (covers the entire prizepool and then some), Valve's own pocket is not going to hurt much no matter what.
Well lets have a look at the financial site then, shall we?
The total revenue for buying a compendium is atm roughly $4,1 million. Their costs are of course a secret, but we can subtract the prizepool of roughly $2,62 million. That means Valve has $1.48 million which is of course not enough to pay the whole tournament ( most estimated costs were between $2,5 and $4 Million), but a large chunk of it.
On July 24 2013 06:33 Fjodorov wrote: Not sure it helps us in the long run if we try to find a free weekend so we can boost the viewer numbers with loads of people who are watching sc2 just beause there is nothing else on. In the future there will always be a conflict with one of the big games anyways. If a portion of the stream numbers have sc2 as 2, 3, 4 on the list of games then so be it. Why kid our selfs? For me sc2 is n1 but I accept that not everyone feels the same.
As said so many times in this thread: it's not about just another tournament, it's about the biggest esport event in history...
It's the biggest MOBA event in history. What's does that got to be with Starcraft. Do most sc2 fan watch Dota2 or lol, like ever?
Especially with it's WC3 background Dota has a lot of people that also play/follow starcraft. Also you have many people that follow a lot of esport in generel. Both these groups are huge in my opinion and when you have the choice i think (as it was stated a lot in this thread) people that have the slightest interest in dota will watch TI3 cause it's the biggest thing in esport
Warcraft 3 esports fans were never big fans of dota in general. I guess you are talking about people that just played custom games.
Pretty sure DotA gained his popularity by WC3 fans. They were the backbone of the DotA community for a long time. No one bought WC3 just for DotA at the start, but many switched there.
On July 24 2013 20:45 Crytash wrote: Well lets have a look at the financial site then, shall we?
The total revenue for buying a compendium is atm roughly $4,1 million. Their costs are of course a secret, but we can subtract the prizepool of roughly $2,62 million. That means Valve has $1.48 million which is of course not enough to pay the whole tournament ( most estimated costs were between $2,5 and $4 Million), but a large chunk of it.
4 million through the compendiums, but does anyone know how much they got for selling the TI 3 tickets?
The biggest esports tournament yet is nearly completely sponsored by the community. :D
On July 24 2013 06:33 Fjodorov wrote: Not sure it helps us in the long run if we try to find a free weekend so we can boost the viewer numbers with loads of people who are watching sc2 just beause there is nothing else on. In the future there will always be a conflict with one of the big games anyways. If a portion of the stream numbers have sc2 as 2, 3, 4 on the list of games then so be it. Why kid our selfs? For me sc2 is n1 but I accept that not everyone feels the same.
As said so many times in this thread: it's not about just another tournament, it's about the biggest esport event in history...
It's the biggest MOBA event in history. What's does that got to be with Starcraft. Do most sc2 fan watch Dota2 or lol, like ever?
Especially with it's WC3 background Dota has a lot of people that also play/follow starcraft. Also you have many people that follow a lot of esport in generel. Both these groups are huge in my opinion and when you have the choice i think (as it was stated a lot in this thread) people that have the slightest interest in dota will watch TI3 cause it's the biggest thing in esport
Warcraft 3 esports fans were never big fans of dota in general. I guess you are talking about people that just played custom games.
Pretty sure DotA gained his popularity by WC3 fans. They were the backbone of the DotA community for a long time. No one bought WC3 just for DotA at the start, but many switched there.
On July 24 2013 20:45 Crytash wrote: Well lets have a look at the financial site then, shall we?
The total revenue for buying a compendium is atm roughly $4,1 million. Their costs are of course a secret, but we can subtract the prizepool of roughly $2,62 million. That means Valve has $1.48 million which is of course not enough to pay the whole tournament ( most estimated costs were between $2,5 and $4 Million), but a large chunk of it.
4 million through the compendiums, but does anyone know how much they got for selling the TI 3 tickets?
The biggest esports tournament yet is nearly completely sponsored by the community. :D
WC3 players always looked down on Dota players during the time WC3 was still played competitively. it's like BW and SC2. also there was no need to buy WC3 at all with sites like replays.net hosting free no-cd cracks and servers like bnetd, warforge, iccup or later garena.
maelk and mania are the only 2 WC3 pros i remember switching (and they played 2on2 mainly for MYM).
On July 24 2013 06:33 Fjodorov wrote: Not sure it helps us in the long run if we try to find a free weekend so we can boost the viewer numbers with loads of people who are watching sc2 just beause there is nothing else on. In the future there will always be a conflict with one of the big games anyways. If a portion of the stream numbers have sc2 as 2, 3, 4 on the list of games then so be it. Why kid our selfs? For me sc2 is n1 but I accept that not everyone feels the same.
As said so many times in this thread: it's not about just another tournament, it's about the biggest esport event in history...
It's the biggest MOBA event in history. What's does that got to be with Starcraft. Do most sc2 fan watch Dota2 or lol, like ever?
Especially with it's WC3 background Dota has a lot of people that also play/follow starcraft. Also you have many people that follow a lot of esport in generel. Both these groups are huge in my opinion and when you have the choice i think (as it was stated a lot in this thread) people that have the slightest interest in dota will watch TI3 cause it's the biggest thing in esport
Warcraft 3 esports fans were never big fans of dota in general. I guess you are talking about people that just played custom games.
Pretty sure DotA gained his popularity by WC3 fans. They were the backbone of the DotA community for a long time. No one bought WC3 just for DotA at the start, but many switched there.
On July 24 2013 20:45 Crytash wrote: Well lets have a look at the financial site then, shall we?
The total revenue for buying a compendium is atm roughly $4,1 million. Their costs are of course a secret, but we can subtract the prizepool of roughly $2,62 million. That means Valve has $1.48 million which is of course not enough to pay the whole tournament ( most estimated costs were between $2,5 and $4 Million), but a large chunk of it.
4 million through the compendiums, but does anyone know how much they got for selling the TI 3 tickets?
The biggest esports tournament yet is nearly completely sponsored by the community. :D
WC3 players always looked down on Dota players during the time WC3 was still played competitively. it's like BW and SC2. also there was no need to buy WC3 at all with sites like replays.net hosting free no-cd cracks and servers like bnetd, warforge, iccup or later garena.
maelk and mania are the only 2 WC3 pros i remember switching (and they played 2on2 mainly for MYM).
Madfrog played a little, but WC3 fans kept on watching WC3 but started playing DotA.
On July 24 2013 06:33 Fjodorov wrote: Not sure it helps us in the long run if we try to find a free weekend so we can boost the viewer numbers with loads of people who are watching sc2 just beause there is nothing else on. In the future there will always be a conflict with one of the big games anyways. If a portion of the stream numbers have sc2 as 2, 3, 4 on the list of games then so be it. Why kid our selfs? For me sc2 is n1 but I accept that not everyone feels the same.
As said so many times in this thread: it's not about just another tournament, it's about the biggest esport event in history...
It's the biggest MOBA event in history. What's does that got to be with Starcraft. Do most sc2 fan watch Dota2 or lol, like ever?
Especially with it's WC3 background Dota has a lot of people that also play/follow starcraft. Also you have many people that follow a lot of esport in generel. Both these groups are huge in my opinion and when you have the choice i think (as it was stated a lot in this thread) people that have the slightest interest in dota will watch TI3 cause it's the biggest thing in esport
Warcraft 3 esports fans were never big fans of dota in general. I guess you are talking about people that just played custom games.
Pretty sure DotA gained his popularity by WC3 fans. They were the backbone of the DotA community for a long time. No one bought WC3 just for DotA at the start, but many switched there.
That's not what he's saying. I agree with Eury and I don't know if you followed the scene closely but I remember the WC3 days clearly. Nobody who laddered on WC3 seriously switched to DotA. The people you're referring to, the ones who bought WC3 without knowing about DotA but quickly switched to playing it exclusively, they're more like casuals when it came to the actual WC3 scene.
I'm not saying there's no overlap between WC3 eSports and DotA1, but undoubtedly, WC3 eSports fans were not the "backbone" of the DotA community.
On July 24 2013 06:33 Fjodorov wrote: Not sure it helps us in the long run if we try to find a free weekend so we can boost the viewer numbers with loads of people who are watching sc2 just beause there is nothing else on. In the future there will always be a conflict with one of the big games anyways. If a portion of the stream numbers have sc2 as 2, 3, 4 on the list of games then so be it. Why kid our selfs? For me sc2 is n1 but I accept that not everyone feels the same.
As said so many times in this thread: it's not about just another tournament, it's about the biggest esport event in history...
It's the biggest MOBA event in history. What's does that got to be with Starcraft. Do most sc2 fan watch Dota2 or lol, like ever?
Especially with it's WC3 background Dota has a lot of people that also play/follow starcraft. Also you have many people that follow a lot of esport in generel. Both these groups are huge in my opinion and when you have the choice i think (as it was stated a lot in this thread) people that have the slightest interest in dota will watch TI3 cause it's the biggest thing in esport
I get the point. But i doubt the number of overlapped audience can be significant. I myself only follow at least same kind of game, like SC1, War3, SC2. Then again, it's only me. Maybe there indeed are many people following both.
On July 24 2013 11:08 Daralii wrote: TI3 will be free to watch ingame and will be streamed on Youtube. Twitch will be strained, but I don't think it'll flat out die. Not unless there's Jaedong v Bogus and Na'Vi vs Alliance going on at the same time, anyway.
Just an example of a person following both. There is a reason teamliquid decided to cover DotA 2 in particular. Sc2 got me into e-sports, DotA 2 is a big reason i'm staying. I still watch a lot more sc2 than dota but for me The International will always be the most exciting thing of the year for a lot of reasons. Yes the pricepool is an important part but also the fact that I had the chance to contribute 2,50$ to it.
Edit: my point; The overlapping might be a lot more significant than some people might think.
Only WCS NA will have big overlap with TI3. If you want to watch WCS EU and KR, you should still be able to watch the large majority of it since they're gonna be in different timezone.
Yeah, I am sort of hoping this is all Much Todo about Nothing and both events pull good numbers relative to what they would normally expect.
On July 24 2013 08:34 Chessz wrote: Sigh. Yea this is awful for the scene and Blizz is fucking up, no one will deny that. But then TB comes out of nowhere blubbering and shouting, absolutism, etc and embarrasses himself again.
"This is awful for the scene but if someone that it actually affects directly expresses dislike for it then that's embarrassing"
On July 24 2013 08:34 Chessz wrote: Sigh. Yea this is awful for the scene and Blizz is fucking up, no one will deny that. But then TB comes out of nowhere blubbering and shouting, absolutism, etc and embarrasses himself again.
"This is awful for the scene but if someone that it actually affects directly expresses dislike for it then that's embarrassing"
Grandstanding is as pathetic as it ever was.
Well you mostly just yelled at everyone who agreed with you, but wasn't as angry as you were. It was a bit weird, but I can see why you would be upset.
On July 24 2013 06:33 Fjodorov wrote: Not sure it helps us in the long run if we try to find a free weekend so we can boost the viewer numbers with loads of people who are watching sc2 just beause there is nothing else on. In the future there will always be a conflict with one of the big games anyways. If a portion of the stream numbers have sc2 as 2, 3, 4 on the list of games then so be it. Why kid our selfs? For me sc2 is n1 but I accept that not everyone feels the same.
As said so many times in this thread: it's not about just another tournament, it's about the biggest esport event in history...
It's the biggest MOBA event in history. What's does that got to be with Starcraft. Do most sc2 fan watch Dota2 or lol, like ever?
Especially with it's WC3 background Dota has a lot of people that also play/follow starcraft. Also you have many people that follow a lot of esport in generel. Both these groups are huge in my opinion and when you have the choice i think (as it was stated a lot in this thread) people that have the slightest interest in dota will watch TI3 cause it's the biggest thing in esport
Warcraft 3 esports fans were never big fans of dota in general. I guess you are talking about people that just played custom games.
Pretty sure DotA gained his popularity by WC3 fans. They were the backbone of the DotA community for a long time. No one bought WC3 just for DotA at the start, but many switched there.
On July 24 2013 20:45 Crytash wrote: Well lets have a look at the financial site then, shall we?
The total revenue for buying a compendium is atm roughly $4,1 million. Their costs are of course a secret, but we can subtract the prizepool of roughly $2,62 million. That means Valve has $1.48 million which is of course not enough to pay the whole tournament ( most estimated costs were between $2,5 and $4 Million), but a large chunk of it.
4 million through the compendiums, but does anyone know how much they got for selling the TI 3 tickets?
The biggest esports tournament yet is nearly completely sponsored by the community. :D
WC3 players always looked down on Dota players during the time WC3 was still played competitively. it's like BW and SC2. also there was no need to buy WC3 at all with sites like replays.net hosting free no-cd cracks and servers like bnetd, warforge, iccup or later garena.
maelk and mania are the only 2 WC3 pros i remember switching (and they played 2on2 mainly for MYM).
i was about to get mad at that comparison before i realized that would just prove your statement :D
Through Starcraft 2 i came in contact with e-sport for the first time. And SC2 is still my favourite, but i will watch The International 3, because its the damn biggest event for Dota 2. Blizzard fucked it up, and the Players and Teams have to pay for it with less viewers. So sad... just sad.
At least they didnt put the WCS finals on that weekend. Maybe next season the put the finals on the weekend where LOL has its big Season Final. I mean its Blizzard, everythings possible .....
Can't believe this slipped by me until now, but wth? How could anyone at Blizzard think that it would be a good idea to go up against the international? It's not like they couldn't have seen it coming, the date was set for months now. This will hurt their viewer-base for sure, and the participating teams/players in the process. And even without the international their decistion to cram all the finals into one weekend is peculiar as well. The regional finals are the ones with the stories people care about the most, diminishing their exposure just to have the globals at gamescom isn't worth it imo! I was going to watch TI, but now I suppose that I'll have multiple streams open and hope that their downtimes will overlap as often as possible...-.-
Can't really say I am surprised though by this. Seems like a normal decision by blizzard these days so I am not phased. At least when I am awake during that weekend I can catch high level starcraft 2 games whenever I want.
The seeds for this scheduling debacle were planted during the paradox that was the both rushed and late introduction of the current WCS system this year. Additionally annoying is the way this was announced. They must've known that people were going to be upset about this so why wait for the negative feedback and not ad the reasons for the unfortunate scheduling to the announcement immediately? Nah just " we're pleased to announce" and later say things like " it's nearly impossible to avoid all conflicts". It's insulting really. It sucks if this turned out to be unavoidable at the end but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't take responsibility for it; It's YOUR fuck up.
It's the same reason why MLG gets more hate than other tournament organizers I feel; They've done this a couple of times too, in the past. Don't treat your audience this way; It will affect the image people have of you negatively. In other words: It's bad PR.
Blizzard are allowed to do as they please, not sure why people would think otherwise. Is it arrogant? Sure. Is it annoying for spectators? Sure. Is it bad for sponsors? Sure. Can Blizzard do as they like though? Sure, and they did. Be angry but don't expect things to change: this is Blizzard, they're stubborn.
On July 25 2013 04:40 Nymzee wrote: Blizzard are allowed to do as they please, not sure why people would think otherwise. Is it arrogant? Sure. Is it annoying for spectators? Sure. Is it bad for sponsors? Sure. Can Blizzard do as they like though? Sure, and they did. Be angry but don't expect things to change: this is Blizzard, they're stubborn.
People would think that blizzard has two alive braincells.
I just think it's amusing this was all done "so they could finish in time to do the big final event at gamescom".
The International is hosted in a Symphony Hall. The LoL World Finals are hosted in the Staples Center.
WCS is just getting blown out of the water by both of these events, and they'll be competing with the LoL EU Playoffs at gamescom (as well as the trade fair in general for a live audience).
The planning here was just so weak - even if their hands are tied at this point, how did they let it get this bad?
Oh no, a DOTA2 event I will not watch is streamed during WCS. The shock, the horror. I also pray for the poor souls that want to watch both at the same time. Maybe in the year 2055 when its possible to own two monitors or watch two internet streams at the same time they will find comfort. A good thing for the professional youtube dramaqueens though.
I remember TI2, I didn't play dota 1 year ago, and seeing the tournament was pretty boring at that time. mobas are not spectator friendly, you need to play to understand wtf is happening in the screen. on the other hand RTS's are one army vs another. simply to understand.
now I play dota2, and sure i will see some games in TI3, but not all of them. why is people here assuming that every sc2 spectator will be all the weekend watching TI3 nonstop?
I like the idea of watch wcs europe finals and the wcs america finals.
On July 25 2013 05:17 Gr33d wrote: Oh no, a DOTA2 event I will not watch is streamed during WCS. The shock, the horror. I also pray for the poor souls that want to watch both at the same time. Maybe in the year 2055 when its possible to own two monitors or watch two internet streams at the same time they will find comfort. A good thing for the professional youtube dramaqueens though.
Can't wait for you to start crying when Twitch caves in under the sheer amount of viewers, especially since you live in Germany!
I guess I'll just watch the Korea's finals and call it a day, not interested in Dota2 and not interested to waste the rest of the week-end with EU/US finals.
On July 25 2013 05:23 MasterOfPuppets wrote: Can't wait for you to start crying when Twitch caves in under the sheer amount of viewers, especially since you live in Germany!
:D :D :D
During a weekend when the bundesliga finally starts again? Mmmh.. let me think about it.. NOPE. Its not like it would actually run very smooth if no other event is played at the same time too.
On July 25 2013 05:17 Gr33d wrote: Oh no, a DOTA2 event I will not watch is streamed during WCS. The shock, the horror. I also pray for the poor souls that want to watch both at the same time. Maybe in the year 2055 when its possible to own two monitors or watch two internet streams at the same time they will find comfort. A good thing for the professional youtube dramaqueens though.
The problem is that all the community wants SC2 to get bigger and that happens by having more people watching it, but with this stunt Blizzard is working hard to minimize the numbers of viewers which ultimately will hurt SC2 as an esport.
On July 25 2013 05:17 Gr33d wrote: Oh no, a DOTA2 event I will not watch is streamed during WCS. The shock, the horror. I also pray for the poor souls that want to watch both at the same time. Maybe in the year 2055 when its possible to own two monitors or watch two internet streams at the same time they will find comfort. A good thing for the professional youtube dramaqueens though.
The problem is that all the community wants SC2 to get bigger and that happens by having more people watching it, but with this stunt Blizzard is working hard to minimize the numbers of viewers which ultimately will hurt SC2 as an esport.
The numbers will likely not be as terrible as people think and it is just the regional finals for a single season of WCS. Its not like they set Blizzcon for the same weekend at TI3.
On July 25 2013 05:17 Gr33d wrote: Oh no, a DOTA2 event I will not watch is streamed during WCS. The shock, the horror. I also pray for the poor souls that want to watch both at the same time. Maybe in the year 2055 when its possible to own two monitors or watch two internet streams at the same time they will find comfort. A good thing for the professional youtube dramaqueens though.
The problem is that all the community wants SC2 to get bigger and that happens by having more people watching it, but with this stunt Blizzard is working hard to minimize the numbers of viewers which ultimately will hurt SC2 as an esport.
The numbers will likely not be as terrible as people think and it is just the regional finals for a single season of WCS. Its not like they set Blizzcon for the same weekend at TI3.
WCS Eu was pretty big though, if this season's numbers are significantly lower than last season I personally will be really disappointed.
On July 25 2013 05:17 Gr33d wrote: Oh no, a DOTA2 event I will not watch is streamed during WCS. The shock, the horror. I also pray for the poor souls that want to watch both at the same time. Maybe in the year 2055 when its possible to own two monitors or watch two internet streams at the same time they will find comfort. A good thing for the professional youtube dramaqueens though.
The problem is that all the community wants SC2 to get bigger and that happens by having more people watching it, but with this stunt Blizzard is working hard to minimize the numbers of viewers which ultimately will hurt SC2 as an esport.
The numbers will likely not be as terrible as people think and it is just the regional finals for a single season of WCS. Its not like they set Blizzcon for the same weekend at TI3.
WCS Eu was pretty big though, if this season's numbers are significantly lower than last season I personally will be really disappointed.
There will be some overlap for EU, but they will be rolling for over 3 hours before the TI3 event shows it first match. I think people will finish with their SC2 viewing in EU and then switch over to TI3. If they are like me, I am going to be focused on a couple of teams in the TI3 and that is it and switching back to SC2 when those teams are not on.
TI3 is gonna steamroll blizz so hard. I cant believe they try to compete with probably the biggest event in esports till now, with a prize pool of over 2,6 mil $ and the top teams from all over the world. As much as i love sc2 i will be watching TI3, even though i dont even play DOTA2 so much.
Conspiracy theory, SC2 was not the cash cow Blizzard wanted, especially when they look at WoW and how old it is, but still bringing in more. So they are looking for a way to cut their losses by killing support for SC2 to move their resources elsewhere and on to other projects, without losing loyalty from the entire fanbase. The alternative is that there are a lot of really really dumb people at Blizzard.
On July 24 2013 12:39 FeyFey wrote: gah this thread is evil ... Now I am actually intrigued and gonna watch TI alongside WCS. That tournament better be worth as much as people make it out to be on here. I'll just convince myself that the event hurts Valves pocket more then it gains them and I am good.
It's funny because I had no idea what TI was until this thread. I feel obligated to check it out simply because of the hype, see what all the fuss is about. #irony lol
On July 24 2013 12:39 FeyFey wrote: gah this thread is evil ... Now I am actually intrigued and gonna watch TI alongside WCS. That tournament better be worth as much as people make it out to be on here. I'll just convince myself that the event hurts Valves pocket more then it gains them and I am good.
There's an ingame compendium for 10$, which people can buy in order to make some predictions. Like player with highest killcount, highest gpm, fastest gg, create your own dreamtam and much more. http://www.dota2.com/international/compendium/ if you're interested in what it exactly is. 2.50$ of that 10$ get added to the total prizepool, rest goes into valves pocket. By now the community has raised 1million$ simply due to thsoe compendiums. 4million$ for valve. Pretty sure they gain a fuckton. Add the fact, that this is perfect exposure after the game is finally officially realeased and I can't possibly see valve actually being hurt in any way from that.
It was pretty poor planning from Blizzard's part. Then again I don't care, since it's only the regional finals anyway. Twitch will blow up.
This might actually be a contender for the single dumbest thing Blizzard has ever done.
That might seem like hyperbole, what with the state of diablo 3 at launch and the refusal to recognize LAN support for SC2 for tournaments, but I definitely think this is a strong contender and will no doubt place highly many years from now when the great works of fail list of Blizzard incompetence is finally compiled.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lZ8FFTw.png)
The International 2013 which, as the biggest Dota event of the year (and one that has been getting a lot of attention today for having the biggest prize pool of any esports event to date), will make for some difficult decisions for those that follow both games.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qpqgDue.gif)
Basically everyone from my SC2 friends list primarily plays/follows DotA 2 now.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cD09b.jpg)
