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On July 24 2013 02:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote:totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining  .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene. Man, you guys plagued WoW as well. Always using your thought-terminating cliches, claiming anything that didn't fit with your view was "whining". You're awful, really, self-destruction dullards that are so short-sighted they can't see the very thing they're enjoying is being damaged time and again by poor decisions from the people in control of it. So forgive me if I think I might have earned the right to tell you to shut the fuck up.
We are people who try and have a reasonable discussion (The guy you quoted didn't but you are attacking the entire other side of the argument with your post)
Not hating Blizzard at every turn because they make mistakes with their new format is not something to call people out on. Why even associate yourself with the scene when so many people only post here to talk shit about the death of Starcraft and how BW was so much better etc etc.
I respect your judgement, you are a very contributing member of the community and one of the best people who are a part of it but on some topics (mostly WCS related) I think you overanalyze things and get too mad at people individually sometimes for being more moderate on issues like this.
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On July 24 2013 02:36 Pazuzu wrote:
I agree that the decision to hold it this weekend was not a good one, I don't think anyone is contesting that (for obvious reasons). However, it's the jump from Blizz making a bad/inconvenient decision to another 'SC2 is dying repent ye sins' thread that I think is a little out of touch. As you are someone who's highly involved in the community/teams etc I can only imagine how frustrating it is to deal with poor business choices from Blizz, but much of the hate and anger in this thread is going far beyond "dammit blizzard you made a poor decision," and it's just as negative/harmful as the types of people you mentioned in your post
Strawman argument
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However, it's the jump from Blizz making a bad/inconvenient decision to another 'SC2 is dying repent ye sins' thread that I think is a little out of touch
That's because WCS has been an absolute travesty thus far. It's plagued with issues from region locking to weird point distributions to reducing GSL prize money to not allowing other tournaments to run. There isn't anything promising about Blizzard's approach so far, so I'm not sure why you're so eager to give them the benefit of the doubt.
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On July 24 2013 02:37 KnadRa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote:totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene. Man, you guys plagued WoW as well. Always using your thought-terminating cliches, claiming anything that didn't fit with your view was "whining". You're awful, really, self-destruction dullards that are so short-sighted they can't see the very thing they're enjoying is being damaged time and again by poor decisions from the people in control of it. So forgive me if I think I might have earned the right to tell you to shut the fuck up. We are people who try and have a reasonable discussion (The guy you quoted didn't but you are attacking the entire other side of the argument with your post) Not hating Blizzard at every turn because they make mistakes with their new format is not something to call people out on. Why even associate yourself with the scene when so many people only post here to talk shit about the death of Starcraft and how BW was so much better etc etc. I respect your judgement, you are a very contributing member of the community and one of the best people who are a part of it but on some topics (mostly WCS related) I think you overanalyze things and get too mad at people individually sometimes for being more moderate on issues like this.
Actually the very problem is that people underanalyse things and don't understand the implications of the things they're trying to discuss.
There is no valid other side of the argument. Those claiming it's ok either don't understand it well enough or just don't care enough, in either case their opinion isn't very important.
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On July 24 2013 02:35 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +What else should we do to express our displeasure beyond go "that sucks, wish it was a different weekend"?
Tell Blizzard to get their fucking act together? WCS has been one misstep after another. It's not like this is the first evidence we have that Blizzard's planning/approach to WCS is absolutely terrible.
I already did that. I sent an email saying I was disappointed that they choose to run it on that weekend and they should make efforst to be more aware of other large scale Esports events. I also told them I found it unlikely that no one on their staff played Dota 2 or had a Steam account, so there was really no excuse for not being aware of it.
What more do you want me to do? I mean, I could freak out on the internet a bunch too, but thats not realy how I roll.
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On July 24 2013 02:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:35 Shiori wrote:What else should we do to express our displeasure beyond go "that sucks, wish it was a different weekend"?
Tell Blizzard to get their fucking act together? WCS has been one misstep after another. It's not like this is the first evidence we have that Blizzard's planning/approach to WCS is absolutely terrible. I already did that. I sent an email saying I was disappointed that they choose to run it on that weekend and they should make efforst to be more aware of other large scale Esports events. I also told them I found it unlikely that no one on their staff played Dota 2 or had a Steam account, so there was really no excuse for not being aware of it. What more do you want me to do? I mean, I could freak out on the internet a bunch too, but thats not realy how I roll.
I don't agree with the rest of what you said so much but that sentence has a lot of truth to it that I wish a lot more people on here thought about lol
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On July 24 2013 02:38 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:37 KnadRa wrote:On July 24 2013 02:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote:totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene. Man, you guys plagued WoW as well. Always using your thought-terminating cliches, claiming anything that didn't fit with your view was "whining". You're awful, really, self-destruction dullards that are so short-sighted they can't see the very thing they're enjoying is being damaged time and again by poor decisions from the people in control of it. So forgive me if I think I might have earned the right to tell you to shut the fuck up. We are people who try and have a reasonable discussion (The guy you quoted didn't but you are attacking the entire other side of the argument with your post) Not hating Blizzard at every turn because they make mistakes with their new format is not something to call people out on. Why even associate yourself with the scene when so many people only post here to talk shit about the death of Starcraft and how BW was so much better etc etc. I respect your judgement, you are a very contributing member of the community and one of the best people who are a part of it but on some topics (mostly WCS related) I think you overanalyze things and get too mad at people individually sometimes for being more moderate on issues like this. Actually the very problem is that people underanalyse things and don't understand the implications of the things they're trying to discuss. There is no valid other side of the argument. Those claiming it's ok either don't understand it well enough or just don't care enough, in either case their opinion isn't very important.
Seriously TB, what else do you want people to do? They are upset, they expressed it and they want it to happen on a different weekend. Blizzard said it is impossible and from the other Esports events that are going on around TI3, it doesn't look like NASL, ESL and GOM have the room to do it any other weekend. We can get as outraged as you want, but its not going to make more production crews to run WCS. Hell, I think NA World of Tanks is being cast by Mr. Bitter and crew. We wouldn't even has casters for WCS NA.
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I still don't get the logic behind this. The number of people who will skip TI3 for WCS: very small. The number who will do the reverse: massive. There's just no possible upside to doing this, and when viewership tanks it'll be interesting to see their response. I guess that will be the make or break for Blizzard's esports management skills. I don't think a single other tournament will be running on that weekend so everyone else planned for it but somehow WCS can't be moved, too bad.
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On July 24 2013 02:41 KnadRa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:39 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 02:35 Shiori wrote:What else should we do to express our displeasure beyond go "that sucks, wish it was a different weekend"?
Tell Blizzard to get their fucking act together? WCS has been one misstep after another. It's not like this is the first evidence we have that Blizzard's planning/approach to WCS is absolutely terrible. I already did that. I sent an email saying I was disappointed that they choose to run it on that weekend and they should make efforst to be more aware of other large scale Esports events. I also told them I found it unlikely that no one on their staff played Dota 2 or had a Steam account, so there was really no excuse for not being aware of it. What more do you want me to do? I mean, I could freak out on the internet a bunch too, but thats not realy how I roll. I don't agree with the rest of what you said so much but that sentence has a lot of truth to it that I wish a lot more people on here thought about lol
So if you call it "an unfortunate mistake" (even though it had nothing to do with fortune), you're all good. But if you call it "a gigantic fuckup", you're a hater that kills esports.
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On July 24 2013 02:34 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:30 theking1 wrote:On July 24 2013 02:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote:totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene. Unfortunatelly for you people who try to see the positive side of sc2 are few in number as these forums and reddit prove.The fact that you are only good at talking vulgariously to attract viewers proves why blizzard should not listen to whiny little people such as yourself who only are vulgarious in language because they are boring in everything else.That and the fact that blizzard and the sc2 scene gave you a job when you were broke and living with your parents at the age of 30 when no other scene accepts people such as yourself proves that the company and scene is not as bad as it seems.But the fact that you keep making money out of casting sc2 and still insult the company and the viewers of sc2 at the same time is something very unique to sc2. People such as yourself who insult fans on forums is one of the reasons why i sometimes dislike the community.By tommorow I will have contacted all of your sponsors and the sponsors of your future tournaments and posted this image on reddit/facebook/my personal twitter and all other social media sites.I have already print screened it so editing it would be useless. “Strong minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, weak minds discuss people.” - Socrates. That's you right now. Your concern is people being "nice" (regardless of the fact that you weren't from the outset by insulting myself and Destiny". My concern is getting shit done, your concern is bitching on forums about how people are mean on the internet. I have invested over $100,000 in Starcraft 2, you do not know shit, stop talking. Show nested quote +By tommorow I will have contacted all of your sponsors and the sponsors of your future tournaments and posted this image on reddit/facebook/my personal twitter and all other social media sites.I have already print screened it so editing it would be useless." And I look forward to having a good laugh with them at your expense you ignorant, toxic, ineffectual parasite.
You have done nothing in the scene but milk money out if it.Just like you did with wow.You use negativity and vulgarious words to cause drama in order to attract viewers to an otherwise completly incompetent caster.You are JUST a PUNDIT.You have not brought anything constructive into the scene form the beginning.The only reason you still exist is because of fans like me who still watch this esport and still contribute to the viewership while all of the others have already swtiched to the mobas who rejected you.The only reason you get viewers is cause of your BM and that is it.Honestly I do not know why blizzard works with you but hopefully you will soon have the faith of idra.The less time you spend in the sc2 community and the faster you go to other scenes the better.You will probably switch soon just like you switched form wow.When the money milking form wow was gone immediately totalbrit made his appearance on the sc2 scene.There is a reaosn why most sc2 personalities including incontrol accused you of only being here for the money form the beggining.Now I realise why.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 24 2013 02:42 Plansix wrote:
There is no valid other side of the argument. Those claiming it's ok either don't understand it well enough or just don't care enough, in either case their opinion isn't very important.
Seriously TB, what else do you want people to do? They are upset, they expressed it and they want it to happen on a different weekend. Blizzard said it is impossible and from the other Esports events that are going on around TI3, it doesn't look like NASL, ESL and GOM have the room to do it any other weekend. We can get as outraged as you want, but its not going to make more production crews to run WCS. Hell, I think NA World of Tanks is being cast by Mr. Bitter and crew. We wouldn't even has casters for WCS NA.[/QUOTE]
What I want people to do is listen to the people that know what they're talking about and stop trying to fight them on issues they don't fully understand. If you've said your piece then why even continue posting in the thread?
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On July 24 2013 02:44 theking1 wrote:
You have done nothing in the scene but milk money out if it.Just like you did with wow.You use negativity and vulgarious words to cause drama in order to attract viewers to an otherwise completly incompetent caster.You are JUST a PUNDIT.You have not brought anything constructive into the scene form the beginning.The only reason you still exist is because of fans like me who still watch this esport and still contribute to the viewership while all of the others have already swtiched to the mobas who rejected you.The only reason you get viewers is cause of your BM and that is it.Honestly I do not know why blizzard works with you but hopefully you will soon have the faith of idra.The less time you spend in the sc2 community and the faster you go to other scenes the better.You will probably switch soon just like you switched form wow.When the money milking form wow was gone immediately totalbrit made his appearance on the sc2 scene.There is a reaosn why most sc2 personalities including incontrol accused you of only being here for the money form the beggining.Now I realise why.
I'm just quoting this post so people can laugh at how moronic it is
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On July 24 2013 02:37 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:36 Pazuzu wrote:
I agree that the decision to hold it this weekend was not a good one, I don't think anyone is contesting that (for obvious reasons). However, it's the jump from Blizz making a bad/inconvenient decision to another 'SC2 is dying repent ye sins' thread that I think is a little out of touch. As you are someone who's highly involved in the community/teams etc I can only imagine how frustrating it is to deal with poor business choices from Blizz, but much of the hate and anger in this thread is going far beyond "dammit blizzard you made a poor decision," and it's just as negative/harmful as the types of people you mentioned in your post Strawman argument
How exactly?
A group is more likely to respond to reasoned argument, not caustic rage from an internet forum. If anything, the fact that threads like this escalate the rage to a point where it's no longer even focused just removes the legitimacy of the people who are actually making reasonable arguments and pointing out Blizzard's flaws.
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Not hating Blizzard at every turn because they make mistakes with their new format is not something to call people out on. Why even associate yourself with the scene when so many people only post here to talk shit about the death of Starcraft and how BW was so much better etc etc.
The reason Blizzard is "making mistakes with their new format" isn't because they're just getting unlucky. It's because they don't pay any attention to the community.
"hey Blizzard! Don't you think this system will make a bunch of Koreans dominate WCS America?" Silence. "We'll look at it next year.
"Hey Blizzard! Don't you think not allowing any tournaments to run at the same time as WCS will inhibit any and all community initiatives from taking off?" Silence. "We are aware of this problem."
"Hey Blizzard! Don't you think it's pretty silly that Korean progamers are making less money playing in their own country than they would playing online in WCS America for the simple reason that their region happens to be better than the others? Isn't this a good reason to have weighted seed distribution or hard region locking?" Silence. "We are aware of these problems and are looking at them internally."
"Hey Blizzard! Why are you opposed to actually giving any answers on anything ever?" Silence. "We don't like to promise things we can't deliver/we are aware of this/we're working very hard on it."
When was the last time Blizzard actually did anything in response to a community uproar without waiting a solid year first? I'm not advocating for a company to mindlessly listen to every whim its customers have, but when pretty much everybody agrees on things like better region-locking, not having a tournament at the same time as the International, better prize pool arrangements, custom tournaments in-game, better clan support, blah blah blah. Hell, even paid fucking name changes haven't been delivered yet.
Why would anyone give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt on anything related to eSports at this point? They've made decision after decision which paint them as being woefully out of touch with the scene in general.
What more do you want me to do? I mean, I could freak out on the internet a bunch too, but thats not realy how I roll.
I don't think anyone is "freaking out" about this. You've posted more than most people in this thread, so regardless of your mood, I don't think you're wasting any less time than the people you're accusing. As for what I want you to do: stop blindly eating up Blizzard's reasoning every time they give us total non-responses and absolve themselves of guilt ("there was no way to avoid it guys! It was just impossible!). Blizzard never actually comes out and admits that they fucked up badly, even if every person in the community is saying it. This is true from balance issues (Infestor/BL) to interface issues (Bnet 2.0, no LAN, no clan support) to tournament organization (WCS). They literally don't ever take the community's word for it; instead, they wait a year to implement some trivial change while other companies like Valve and Riot are busy actually improving things and being proactive rather than just fixing whatever the community raises a ruckus about in the laziest possible fashion.
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On July 24 2013 02:45 Pazuzu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:37 TotalBiscuit wrote:On July 24 2013 02:36 Pazuzu wrote:
I agree that the decision to hold it this weekend was not a good one, I don't think anyone is contesting that (for obvious reasons). However, it's the jump from Blizz making a bad/inconvenient decision to another 'SC2 is dying repent ye sins' thread that I think is a little out of touch. As you are someone who's highly involved in the community/teams etc I can only imagine how frustrating it is to deal with poor business choices from Blizz, but much of the hate and anger in this thread is going far beyond "dammit blizzard you made a poor decision," and it's just as negative/harmful as the types of people you mentioned in your post Strawman argument How exactly? A group is more likely to respond to reasoned argument, not caustic rage from an internet forum. If anything, the fact that threads like this escalate the rage to a point where it's no longer even focused just removes the legitimacy of the people who are actually making reasonable arguments and pointing out Blizzard's flaws.
You are claiming the opposing argument is "STARCRAFT IS DYING REPENT YE SINS" extremism. You are misrepresenting the argument as unreasonable by claiming it's something that it is not, that would be a strawman.
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On July 24 2013 02:44 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:42 Plansix wrote:
There is no valid other side of the argument. Those claiming it's ok either don't understand it well enough or just don't care enough, in either case their opinion isn't very important. Seriously TB, what else do you want people to do? They are upset, they expressed it and they want it to happen on a different weekend. Blizzard said it is impossible and from the other Esports events that are going on around TI3, it doesn't look like NASL, ESL and GOM have the room to do it any other weekend. We can get as outraged as you want, but its not going to make more production crews to run WCS. Hell, I think NA World of Tanks is being cast by Mr. Bitter and crew. We wouldn't even has casters for WCS NA.
What I want people to do is listen to the people that know what they're talking about and stop trying to fight them on issues they don't fully understand. If you've said your piece then why even continue posting in the thread?[/QUOTE]
Well, mostly you have yelled a lot and called people stupid or uninformed. Could you go into the arguments more, rather than just telling us we are uninformed and don't know what we are talking about? I mean, I am willing to accept that, but only with some good information.
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On July 24 2013 02:47 Plansix wrote:
Well, mostly you have yelled a lot and called people stupid or uninformed. Could you go into the arguments more, rather than just telling us we are uninformed and don't know what we are talking about? I mean, I am willing to accept that, but only with some good information.
Already done so, go read the Reddit posts on the matter.
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On July 24 2013 02:44 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:41 KnadRa wrote:On July 24 2013 02:39 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 02:35 Shiori wrote:What else should we do to express our displeasure beyond go "that sucks, wish it was a different weekend"?
Tell Blizzard to get their fucking act together? WCS has been one misstep after another. It's not like this is the first evidence we have that Blizzard's planning/approach to WCS is absolutely terrible. I already did that. I sent an email saying I was disappointed that they choose to run it on that weekend and they should make efforst to be more aware of other large scale Esports events. I also told them I found it unlikely that no one on their staff played Dota 2 or had a Steam account, so there was really no excuse for not being aware of it. What more do you want me to do? I mean, I could freak out on the internet a bunch too, but thats not realy how I roll. I don't agree with the rest of what you said so much but that sentence has a lot of truth to it that I wish a lot more people on here thought about lol So if you call it "an unfortunate mistake" (even though it had nothing to do with fortune), you're all good. But if you call it "a gigantic fuckup", you're a hater that kills esports.
Why are you calling me out like that? I know it has nothing to do with fortune, it was an unpopular decision made by Blizzard which the repercussions (if any that result from this) haven't even be felt yet so arguing over how detrimental it is to the scene is completely baseless.
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On July 24 2013 02:47 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:45 Pazuzu wrote:On July 24 2013 02:37 TotalBiscuit wrote:On July 24 2013 02:36 Pazuzu wrote:
I agree that the decision to hold it this weekend was not a good one, I don't think anyone is contesting that (for obvious reasons). However, it's the jump from Blizz making a bad/inconvenient decision to another 'SC2 is dying repent ye sins' thread that I think is a little out of touch. As you are someone who's highly involved in the community/teams etc I can only imagine how frustrating it is to deal with poor business choices from Blizz, but much of the hate and anger in this thread is going far beyond "dammit blizzard you made a poor decision," and it's just as negative/harmful as the types of people you mentioned in your post Strawman argument How exactly? A group is more likely to respond to reasoned argument, not caustic rage from an internet forum. If anything, the fact that threads like this escalate the rage to a point where it's no longer even focused just removes the legitimacy of the people who are actually making reasonable arguments and pointing out Blizzard's flaws. You are claiming the opposing argument is "STARCRAFT IS DYING REPENT YE SINS" extremism. You are misrepresenting the argument as unreasonable by claiming it's something that it is not, that would be a strawman.
For real, I don't think he did anything like that. I'm with you on almost everything you're sayin man but just take a few deep breaths. You're hitting friends here too.
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On July 24 2013 02:48 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:47 Plansix wrote:
Well, mostly you have yelled a lot and called people stupid or uninformed. Could you go into the arguments more, rather than just telling us we are uninformed and don't know what we are talking about? I mean, I am willing to accept that, but only with some good information. Already done so, go read the Reddit posts on the matter.
You mean your post about sponsors seeing TI3 and the massive numbers it is going to put up that weekend, and wanting to invest in Dota 2. I saw that post and it seems like a good point. What is your solution to Blizzard's issue that they can't runs the regional 2 finals on any other weekend, due to the production teams being busy?
Also, couldn't you take the numbers from the Gamescom finals and use those instead, since won't have the TI3 overshadowing them?
On July 24 2013 02:49 See.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:47 TotalBiscuit wrote:On July 24 2013 02:45 Pazuzu wrote:On July 24 2013 02:37 TotalBiscuit wrote:On July 24 2013 02:36 Pazuzu wrote:
I agree that the decision to hold it this weekend was not a good one, I don't think anyone is contesting that (for obvious reasons). However, it's the jump from Blizz making a bad/inconvenient decision to another 'SC2 is dying repent ye sins' thread that I think is a little out of touch. As you are someone who's highly involved in the community/teams etc I can only imagine how frustrating it is to deal with poor business choices from Blizz, but much of the hate and anger in this thread is going far beyond "dammit blizzard you made a poor decision," and it's just as negative/harmful as the types of people you mentioned in your post Strawman argument How exactly? A group is more likely to respond to reasoned argument, not caustic rage from an internet forum. If anything, the fact that threads like this escalate the rage to a point where it's no longer even focused just removes the legitimacy of the people who are actually making reasonable arguments and pointing out Blizzard's flaws. You are claiming the opposing argument is "STARCRAFT IS DYING REPENT YE SINS" extremism. You are misrepresenting the argument as unreasonable by claiming it's something that it is not, that would be a strawman. For real, I don't think he did anything like that. I'm with you on almost everything you're sayin man but just take a few deep breaths. You're hitting friends here too.
What this guy said, you are talking to the coverted here. We are all on your side and want SC2 to do well, but if the date can't be changed, why freak out so hard?
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