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On July 24 2013 02:49 See.Blue wrote:
For real, I don't think he did anything like that. I'm with you on almost everything you're sayin man but just take a few deep breaths. You're hitting friends here too.
I don't think so. Anyone willing to defend decisions like this is no friend of the scene. Through ignorance or malice they're supporting decisions that damage it. You'll have to forgive me if because of my investment in it, I feel a little more passionate about it than most.
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On July 24 2013 02:47 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:45 Pazuzu wrote:On July 24 2013 02:37 TotalBiscuit wrote:On July 24 2013 02:36 Pazuzu wrote:
I agree that the decision to hold it this weekend was not a good one, I don't think anyone is contesting that (for obvious reasons). However, it's the jump from Blizz making a bad/inconvenient decision to another 'SC2 is dying repent ye sins' thread that I think is a little out of touch. As you are someone who's highly involved in the community/teams etc I can only imagine how frustrating it is to deal with poor business choices from Blizz, but much of the hate and anger in this thread is going far beyond "dammit blizzard you made a poor decision," and it's just as negative/harmful as the types of people you mentioned in your post Strawman argument How exactly? A group is more likely to respond to reasoned argument, not caustic rage from an internet forum. If anything, the fact that threads like this escalate the rage to a point where it's no longer even focused just removes the legitimacy of the people who are actually making reasonable arguments and pointing out Blizzard's flaws. You are claiming the opposing argument is "STARCRAFT IS DYING REPENT YE SINS" extremism. You are misrepresenting the argument as unreasonable by claiming it's something that it is not, that would be a strawman.
No I'm claiming that over the course of the thread, general consensus has escalated from "blizz made a mistake, get your stuff together" which is productive and necessary for Blizz to hear (which I don't think anyone is contesting), to an inappropriate level of anger which is no longer productive.
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On July 24 2013 02:51 Pazuzu wrote:
No I'm claiming that over the course of the thread, general consensus has escalated from "blizz made a mistake, get your stuff together" which is productive and necessary for Blizz to hear (which I don't think anyone is contesting), to an inappropriate level of anger which is no longer productive.
What did you expect? The people who made their points have already stopped posting, leaving only either sides extremists to fight it out.
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On July 24 2013 02:49 KnadRa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:44 Talin wrote:On July 24 2013 02:41 KnadRa wrote:On July 24 2013 02:39 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 02:35 Shiori wrote:What else should we do to express our displeasure beyond go "that sucks, wish it was a different weekend"?
Tell Blizzard to get their fucking act together? WCS has been one misstep after another. It's not like this is the first evidence we have that Blizzard's planning/approach to WCS is absolutely terrible. I already did that. I sent an email saying I was disappointed that they choose to run it on that weekend and they should make efforst to be more aware of other large scale Esports events. I also told them I found it unlikely that no one on their staff played Dota 2 or had a Steam account, so there was really no excuse for not being aware of it. What more do you want me to do? I mean, I could freak out on the internet a bunch too, but thats not realy how I roll. I don't agree with the rest of what you said so much but that sentence has a lot of truth to it that I wish a lot more people on here thought about lol So if you call it "an unfortunate mistake" (even though it had nothing to do with fortune), you're all good. But if you call it "a gigantic fuckup", you're a hater that kills esports. Why are you calling me out like that? I know it has nothing to do with fortune, it was an unpopular decision made by Blizzard which the repercussions (if any that result from this) haven't even be felt yet so arguing over how detrimental it is to the scene is completely baseless.
There is no way that this decision won't be detrimental to the scene. That's the point. No matter which way you look at it, this is not good for the scene. Even if Blizzard luckily escapes total obliteration and embarrassment at the hands of the International, it still doesn't actually help the scene. Since when were decisions about how little things will hurt rather than about how much they will help? This decision achieves absolutely nothing beneficial for the scene. That's why it's a shitty decision. It's a huge gamble with no gain whatsoever.
What is your solution to Blizzard's issue that they can't runs the regional 2 finals on any other weekend, due to the production teams being busy?
The solution is to call this out as the hilariously unbelievable excuse that it is.
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On July 24 2013 02:51 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:51 Pazuzu wrote:
No I'm claiming that over the course of the thread, general consensus has escalated from "blizz made a mistake, get your stuff together" which is productive and necessary for Blizz to hear (which I don't think anyone is contesting), to an inappropriate level of anger which is no longer productive. What did you expect? The people who made their points have already stopped posting, leaving only either sides extremists to fight it out.
eh, it looks like the only guy who was giving you shit and was who i'd call an extremist just got banned xD
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On July 24 2013 02:53 Pazuzu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:51 TotalBiscuit wrote:On July 24 2013 02:51 Pazuzu wrote:
No I'm claiming that over the course of the thread, general consensus has escalated from "blizz made a mistake, get your stuff together" which is productive and necessary for Blizz to hear (which I don't think anyone is contesting), to an inappropriate level of anger which is no longer productive. What did you expect? The people who made their points have already stopped posting, leaving only either sides extremists to fight it out. eh, it looks like the only guy who was giving you shit and was who i'd call an extremist just got banned xD
Yup. Looks like my work here is done 
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On July 24 2013 02:53 Pazuzu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:51 TotalBiscuit wrote:On July 24 2013 02:51 Pazuzu wrote:
No I'm claiming that over the course of the thread, general consensus has escalated from "blizz made a mistake, get your stuff together" which is productive and necessary for Blizz to hear (which I don't think anyone is contesting), to an inappropriate level of anger which is no longer productive. What did you expect? The people who made their points have already stopped posting, leaving only either sides extremists to fight it out. eh, it looks like the only guy who was giving you shit and was who i'd call an extremist just got banned xD
Yeah, I took care of that. He was totally out of line with his comments. TB may be abrasive at times, but he does good stuff for the scene and gives back way more.
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On July 24 2013 02:52 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:49 KnadRa wrote:On July 24 2013 02:44 Talin wrote:On July 24 2013 02:41 KnadRa wrote:On July 24 2013 02:39 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 02:35 Shiori wrote:What else should we do to express our displeasure beyond go "that sucks, wish it was a different weekend"?
Tell Blizzard to get their fucking act together? WCS has been one misstep after another. It's not like this is the first evidence we have that Blizzard's planning/approach to WCS is absolutely terrible. I already did that. I sent an email saying I was disappointed that they choose to run it on that weekend and they should make efforst to be more aware of other large scale Esports events. I also told them I found it unlikely that no one on their staff played Dota 2 or had a Steam account, so there was really no excuse for not being aware of it. What more do you want me to do? I mean, I could freak out on the internet a bunch too, but thats not realy how I roll. I don't agree with the rest of what you said so much but that sentence has a lot of truth to it that I wish a lot more people on here thought about lol So if you call it "an unfortunate mistake" (even though it had nothing to do with fortune), you're all good. But if you call it "a gigantic fuckup", you're a hater that kills esports. Why are you calling me out like that? I know it has nothing to do with fortune, it was an unpopular decision made by Blizzard which the repercussions (if any that result from this) haven't even be felt yet so arguing over how detrimental it is to the scene is completely baseless. There is no way that this decision won't be detrimental to the scene. That's the point. No matter which way you look at it, this is not good for the scene. Even if Blizzard luckily escapes total obliteration and embarrassment at the hands of the International, it still doesn't actually help the scene. Since when were decisions about how little things will hurt rather than about how much they will help? This decision achieves absolutely nothing beneficial for the scene. That's why it's a shitty decision. It's a huge gamble with no gain whatsoever. Show nested quote +What is your solution to Blizzard's issue that they can't runs the regional 2 finals on any other weekend, due to the production teams being busy? The solution is to call this out as the hilariously unbelievable excuse that it is.
Nobody expects the regional finals for season 2 to pull the numbers of TI3, not or me or any sponsor on the planet. If Blizzcon and TI3 were at the same time your argument would be really sound but season 2 regionals are not a tournament that is big enough to actually hurt the scene with a loss of viewership. Someone a few posts back listed the importance of SC2 tournaments over the course of the year and only WCS Korea Regional finals were in the top 10.
People think if something isn't helping E-Sports than its killing it but do you ever consider that the average spectator, someone who isn't one of us on TL or Reddit who doesn't analyzes things as closely as we do really care that much and are swayed by things like this?
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On July 24 2013 02:29 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:24 Pazuzu wrote:On July 24 2013 02:21 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 02:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote:totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining  .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene. Oh come on TB, we said that you are good for the scene and like you. You just love to shoot from the hip a lot, mostly on twitter and reddit. Sometimes you hit dead on, other times you miss. Sometimes I wish you would do it less, other times I think its really funny. At the end of the day, its good for everyone and does keep Blizzard honest. Now the hate dog pile afterwords, that is a different story... Nah the problem is it just seems to be such a polarizing issue, people are pretty much one extreme or the other. Though i guess that makes sense since only people with strong opinions about it would be the ones to discuss it on internet forums haha The people on the other extreme are just flat-out wrong though, that being the difference here. They're not taking the stance for any rational reason, they're taking it because BLIZZ CAN DO NO WRONG or I DON'T LIKE DESTINY SO I SHOULD TAKE THE OPPOSITE STANCE. This is not in fact a matter of opinion, the decision is objectively bad for the tournament. "I don't mind it being on the same day" is a shitty opinion, because it doesn't take into account all the reasons why it's bad. "Oh it doesn't affect me" shows a complete lack of empathy and understanding. It affects people that matter and it will eventually affect you too in real, tangible ways that even your ignorance will begin to understand if this scene keeps getting kicked in the teeth by poor decisions. I'm deadly serious when I say the only people who are ok with this either don't understand the issue or are too damn apathetic for their opinion to matter anyway.
The TI3 scheduling claim is obvious mistake and while its not earthshattering ( there are 10+ bigger events this year compared to EU/AM regional finals and 10+ more of similar size) its hard to find a excuse for that - given that the next weekend has absolutely nothing happening that could have a conflict.
I do have trouble understanding the why 3 regionals per weekend finals are such a big deal for the players.
For regional sponsors i dont see how it matters at all ( or is beneficial )
For global sponsors it just means that they would have to split their marketing budget between 3 tournaments.
If your sponsor of AM based team lowers budget, they will lose money .... but then again if a sponsor of a team in KR, and another one in EU do the same - they will have to come looking for an AM team, so in the end it ends up the same?
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The overall problem is that TI2 has been widely recognized as one of (if not the) the greatest esports events ever.
It had crowd hype (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldq1afiKQb8)
Amazing games
Incredible venue
Incredible prizepool
Fantastic commentator diversity
Amazing schedule
Unmatched production
And so forth. TI3's hype is through the roof thanks to their Compendium scheme. I just can't get it through my head who would ever think it's a good idea to try and compete with Valve's golden egg.
Then again, lets all remind ourselves this is the company that stated this: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/19sg1x/we_are_dustin_browder_alan_dabiri_and_david_kim/c8qypuk
Harsh, harsh awakening for Blizzard incoming. And the worst thing is that this benefits Valve 100% and they haven't done a single thing.
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On July 24 2013 03:00 rename wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:29 TotalBiscuit wrote:On July 24 2013 02:24 Pazuzu wrote:On July 24 2013 02:21 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 02:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote:totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene. Oh come on TB, we said that you are good for the scene and like you. You just love to shoot from the hip a lot, mostly on twitter and reddit. Sometimes you hit dead on, other times you miss. Sometimes I wish you would do it less, other times I think its really funny. At the end of the day, its good for everyone and does keep Blizzard honest. Now the hate dog pile afterwords, that is a different story... Nah the problem is it just seems to be such a polarizing issue, people are pretty much one extreme or the other. Though i guess that makes sense since only people with strong opinions about it would be the ones to discuss it on internet forums haha The people on the other extreme are just flat-out wrong though, that being the difference here. They're not taking the stance for any rational reason, they're taking it because BLIZZ CAN DO NO WRONG or I DON'T LIKE DESTINY SO I SHOULD TAKE THE OPPOSITE STANCE. This is not in fact a matter of opinion, the decision is objectively bad for the tournament. "I don't mind it being on the same day" is a shitty opinion, because it doesn't take into account all the reasons why it's bad. "Oh it doesn't affect me" shows a complete lack of empathy and understanding. It affects people that matter and it will eventually affect you too in real, tangible ways that even your ignorance will begin to understand if this scene keeps getting kicked in the teeth by poor decisions. I'm deadly serious when I say the only people who are ok with this either don't understand the issue or are too damn apathetic for their opinion to matter anyway. The TI3 scheduling claim is obvious mistake and while its not earthshattering ( there are 10+ bigger events this year compared to EU/AM regional finals and 10+ more of similar size) its hard to find a excuse for that - given that the next weekend has absolutely nothing happening that could have a conflict. I do have trouble understanding the why 3 regionals per weekend finals are such a big deal for the players. For regional sponsors i dont see how it matters at all ( or is beneficial ) For global sponsors it just means that they would have to split their marketing budget between 3 tournaments. If your sponsor of AM based team lowers budget, they will lose money .... but then again if a sponsor of a team in KR, and another one in EU do the same - they will have to come looking for an AM team, so in the end it ends up the same?
I think they just don't want SC2 next to the minium 500K viewers that TI3 is going to get. I can kinda see the point, but that thing was always going to put up amazing numbers no matter what. The problem is that delaying season 2 further will just slow down season 3 and leave less time to hype the Blizzcon, which is goning to be the biggest and best of the year. Also, I haven't really seen a solution to the whole "ESL and NASL got shit to do on the other weekends" problem.
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On July 24 2013 02:58 KnadRa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:52 Shiori wrote:On July 24 2013 02:49 KnadRa wrote:On July 24 2013 02:44 Talin wrote:On July 24 2013 02:41 KnadRa wrote:On July 24 2013 02:39 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 02:35 Shiori wrote:What else should we do to express our displeasure beyond go "that sucks, wish it was a different weekend"?
Tell Blizzard to get their fucking act together? WCS has been one misstep after another. It's not like this is the first evidence we have that Blizzard's planning/approach to WCS is absolutely terrible. I already did that. I sent an email saying I was disappointed that they choose to run it on that weekend and they should make efforst to be more aware of other large scale Esports events. I also told them I found it unlikely that no one on their staff played Dota 2 or had a Steam account, so there was really no excuse for not being aware of it. What more do you want me to do? I mean, I could freak out on the internet a bunch too, but thats not realy how I roll. I don't agree with the rest of what you said so much but that sentence has a lot of truth to it that I wish a lot more people on here thought about lol So if you call it "an unfortunate mistake" (even though it had nothing to do with fortune), you're all good. But if you call it "a gigantic fuckup", you're a hater that kills esports. Why are you calling me out like that? I know it has nothing to do with fortune, it was an unpopular decision made by Blizzard which the repercussions (if any that result from this) haven't even be felt yet so arguing over how detrimental it is to the scene is completely baseless. There is no way that this decision won't be detrimental to the scene. That's the point. No matter which way you look at it, this is not good for the scene. Even if Blizzard luckily escapes total obliteration and embarrassment at the hands of the International, it still doesn't actually help the scene. Since when were decisions about how little things will hurt rather than about how much they will help? This decision achieves absolutely nothing beneficial for the scene. That's why it's a shitty decision. It's a huge gamble with no gain whatsoever. What is your solution to Blizzard's issue that they can't runs the regional 2 finals on any other weekend, due to the production teams being busy? The solution is to call this out as the hilariously unbelievable excuse that it is. Nobody expects the regional finals for season 2 to pull the numbers of TI3, not or me or any sponsor on the planet. If Blizzcon and TI3 were at the same time your argument would be really sound but season 2 regionals are not a tournament that is big enough to actually hurt the scene with a loss of viewership. Someone a few posts back listed the importance of SC2 tournaments over the course of the year and only WCS Korea Regional finals were in the top 10. People think if something isn't helping E-Sports than its killing it but do you ever consider that the average spectator, someone who isn't one of us on TL or Reddit who doesn't analyzes things as closely as we do really care that much and are swayed by things like this?
I think the average spectator doesn't really have any allegiance to Sc2, DotA, or LoL, but if they're coming into the scene, they might just notice that there are two companies who are really pushing the envelope with respect to eSports and then this other company that sometimes has good tournaments but it's really unpredictable, disjointed, and has tonnes of problems/usually isn't very interesting event-wise.
In an eSports world in which the competition is always looking to step things up, things that don't improve the scene (and have a better chance of hurting than helping it) are absolutely bad for the scene, especially when they're part of the large-scale, developer-driven tournament of that scene. If Blizzard continues to lag behind with WCS, then other companies are just going to keep improving . That means that people will become more and more aware of the huge gap separating the International/LCS from WCS. Since LCS/International have always stepped up with every successive iteration, it absolutely matters if WCS is simply trying to preserve the status quo. This is especially true in light of the fact that there are gazillions of problems with WCS, and the only reason people are giving it a chance is to see if Blizzard will fix those problems and make the tournaments better. Every time Blizzard makes a poorly thought-out decision, they spit in the face of people hanging on to the idea that WCS is a work in progress. Usually WIP things make measurable progress at a reasonable rate. When there are two companies moving forward at several hundred times the rate of Blizzard, it's difficult to believe that Blizzard "needs more time." Blizzard isn't some indie game developer. It's fucking Blizzard.
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On July 24 2013 03:06 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:58 KnadRa wrote:On July 24 2013 02:52 Shiori wrote:On July 24 2013 02:49 KnadRa wrote:On July 24 2013 02:44 Talin wrote:On July 24 2013 02:41 KnadRa wrote:On July 24 2013 02:39 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 02:35 Shiori wrote:What else should we do to express our displeasure beyond go "that sucks, wish it was a different weekend"?
Tell Blizzard to get their fucking act together? WCS has been one misstep after another. It's not like this is the first evidence we have that Blizzard's planning/approach to WCS is absolutely terrible. I already did that. I sent an email saying I was disappointed that they choose to run it on that weekend and they should make efforst to be more aware of other large scale Esports events. I also told them I found it unlikely that no one on their staff played Dota 2 or had a Steam account, so there was really no excuse for not being aware of it. What more do you want me to do? I mean, I could freak out on the internet a bunch too, but thats not realy how I roll. I don't agree with the rest of what you said so much but that sentence has a lot of truth to it that I wish a lot more people on here thought about lol So if you call it "an unfortunate mistake" (even though it had nothing to do with fortune), you're all good. But if you call it "a gigantic fuckup", you're a hater that kills esports. Why are you calling me out like that? I know it has nothing to do with fortune, it was an unpopular decision made by Blizzard which the repercussions (if any that result from this) haven't even be felt yet so arguing over how detrimental it is to the scene is completely baseless. There is no way that this decision won't be detrimental to the scene. That's the point. No matter which way you look at it, this is not good for the scene. Even if Blizzard luckily escapes total obliteration and embarrassment at the hands of the International, it still doesn't actually help the scene. Since when were decisions about how little things will hurt rather than about how much they will help? This decision achieves absolutely nothing beneficial for the scene. That's why it's a shitty decision. It's a huge gamble with no gain whatsoever. What is your solution to Blizzard's issue that they can't runs the regional 2 finals on any other weekend, due to the production teams being busy? The solution is to call this out as the hilariously unbelievable excuse that it is. Nobody expects the regional finals for season 2 to pull the numbers of TI3, not or me or any sponsor on the planet. If Blizzcon and TI3 were at the same time your argument would be really sound but season 2 regionals are not a tournament that is big enough to actually hurt the scene with a loss of viewership. Someone a few posts back listed the importance of SC2 tournaments over the course of the year and only WCS Korea Regional finals were in the top 10. People think if something isn't helping E-Sports than its killing it but do you ever consider that the average spectator, someone who isn't one of us on TL or Reddit who doesn't analyzes things as closely as we do really care that much and are swayed by things like this? I think the average spectator doesn't really have any allegiance to Sc2, DotA, or LoL, but if they're coming into the scene, they might just notice that there are two companies who are really pushing the envelope with respect to eSports and then this other company that sometimes has good tournaments but it's really unpredictable, disjointed, and has tonnes of problems/usually isn't very interesting event-wise. In an eSports world in which the competition is always looking to step things up, things that don't improve the scene (and have a better chance of hurting than helping it) are absolutely bad for the scene, especially when they're part of the large-scale, developer-driven tournament of that scene. If Blizzard continues to lag behind with WCS, then other companies are just going to keep improving . That means that people will become more and more aware of the huge gap separating the International/LCS from WCS. Since LCS/International have always stepped up with every successive iteration, it absolutely matters if WCS is simply trying to preserve the status quo. This is especially true in light of the fact that there are gazillions of problems with WCS, and the only reason people are giving it a chance is to see if Blizzard will fix those problems and make the tournaments better. Every time Blizzard makes a poorly thought-out decision, they spit in the face of people hanging on to the idea that WCS is a work in progress. Usually WIP things make measurable progress at a reasonable rate. When there are two companies moving forward at several hundred times the rate of Blizzard, it's difficult to believe that Blizzard "needs more time." Blizzard isn't some indie game developer. It's fucking Blizzard.
That is where your wrong already, the spectator will watch whatever game they enjoy not which one does E-Sports better. Thinking Riot does it well to justify LoL's insane growth is a ridiculous statement. You are total ignoring when I said the problems of WCS are not even noticeable to the average viewer.
Korean Prize pools are a problem I'll give you that but region locks are debatably good or bad.
Not to mention your whole post is a huge tautology, you are just stating the same thing in every sentence so you made it impossible for me to debunk. You have to understand apart from people here on TL and Reddit, very few people really care about the wars between each E-Sports an all these littles debacles. They come for content and if it is delivered they are happy. My source for that is knowing a lot of people who watch and play different E-Sport games and they all seem to have that train of thought.
I also firmly believe its too early to not cut Blizzard any slack for trying to improve WCS, any thing they would change region lock, prize pool or scheduling wise would take effect next year and they wouldn't announce until then.
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Blizzard, I don't understand. The date for TI3 was in place before WCS was even announced fellas. I mean there are already quite a few people who are either on the fence or have switched to Dota from SC. Now all of these people on the fringe have a choice: Watch the fucking superbowl of Dota, or WCS... Blizzard's explanatory post was; "Meh, Esports too big. We could have never foreseen such a thing but by the way other games do it too so deal with it chumps."
HotBid is right, this is straight up suicide. It won't kill the game but it sure as shit hurts WCS and the competitive scene.
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That is where your wrong already, the spectator will watch whatever game they enjoy not which one does E-Sports better. Thinking Riot does it well to justify LoL's insane growth is a ridiculous statement. You are total ignoring when I said the problems of WCS are not even noticeable to the average viewer.
Korean Prize pools are a problem I'll give you that but region locks are debatably good or bad.
Ah yes, nobody is going to notice WCS America being practically pure Koreans...oh wait.
You have to understand apart from people here on TL and Reddit, very few people really care about the wars between each E-Sports an all these littles debacles. They come for content and if it is delivered they are happy. My source for that is knowing a lot of people who watch and play different E-Sport games and they all seem to have that train of thought.
I'd argue that most of the people who watch eSports regularly are part of some forum or another, and the biggest forums are r/starcraft and TL. I can't imagine someone even being particularly aware of WCS without at least knowing about big SC2 communities like TL or r/starcraft, particularly since most of the advertising/content for it is linked on/to TL/Reddit.
TL & r/starcraft are not drops in the pond of Sc2's Western eSports audience. They're the largest single block of it.
I also firmly believe its too early to not cut Blizzard any slack for trying to improve WCS, any thing they would change region lock, prize pool or scheduling wise would take effect next year and they wouldn't announce until then.
You do realize that this is the second year of WCS, right? Maybe if they had picked a system that actually permitted changes during the season, they wouldn't be in such a mess. Everyone pointed out the issues with region locking (pure Korean WCS AM) literally the day the info was released. and Blizzard just ignored/handwaved it. Well, they were wrong as fuck, and they have themselves to blame for being totally presumptuous and ignorant, as usual.
It's not like the International and LCS have been going on for decades, or something. They've had comparable time to Blizzard to put together a production. It just so happens that they actually took things seriously, didn't skimp where it mattered, and tried to innovate rather than do the bare minimum.
Here's the kicker of the whole situation: WCS brings nothing new to the table. Not one single aspect of WCS is innovative in the slightest, neither in production or structure. The International and LCS blow WCS out of the water because the former two actually try to improve themselves rather than play catchup with their competitors. Seriously, WCS is a blatant attempt on Blizzard's part to create a Starcraft-LCS. Fine, but LCS is actually bettering itself (and I don't even like LoL at all, tbh) with each fucking day. WCS isn't. A derivative tournaments that doesn't improve doesn't deserve any credit or benefit of the doubt. Blizzard didn't build WCS from the ground-up with a bunch of next-generation, experimental ideas that need to be smoothed out. It just face-lifted the LCS concept and implemented it poorly. That's Blizzard's fault, and it's not bad luck, either.
Blizzard needs to start taking eSports seriously rather than painting every contribution they make as some noble, sacrificial act to prove how much they love the scene. They also need to get their heads out of their asses and realize that when the customers largely want something, you don't tiptoe around for 2.5 years before delivering it. You give an ETA, acknowledge the concern, and give an actual fucking reason rather than "we're aware of the problem." Blizzard's responses to criticism just emphasize the fact that they really don't give a fuck about what their customers would prefer.
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On July 24 2013 02:29 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:24 Pazuzu wrote:On July 24 2013 02:21 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 02:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On July 23 2013 22:13 theking1 wrote:totalbrit and destiny.Where would the sc2 community be without their continuous whining .At least totalbrit invests in the sc2 scene and knows how to attract viewers.Destiny on the other hand plays lol fulltime and still whines about blizzard .And now he somehow dragged liquidsheth out of all people in the qq/whine/rage group In a worse place than it would be if it were dominated by shitty Blizzard apologists who blindly agree with everything this company does despite it's bad decisions time and again. Let's all remember to get up tomorrow and be thankful that these people have no influence in the scene. Oh come on TB, we said that you are good for the scene and like you. You just love to shoot from the hip a lot, mostly on twitter and reddit. Sometimes you hit dead on, other times you miss. Sometimes I wish you would do it less, other times I think its really funny. At the end of the day, its good for everyone and does keep Blizzard honest. Now the hate dog pile afterwords, that is a different story... Nah the problem is it just seems to be such a polarizing issue, people are pretty much one extreme or the other. Though i guess that makes sense since only people with strong opinions about it would be the ones to discuss it on internet forums haha The people on the other extreme are just flat-out wrong though, that being the difference here. They're not taking the stance for any rational reason, they're taking it because BLIZZ CAN DO NO WRONG or I DON'T LIKE DESTINY SO I SHOULD TAKE THE OPPOSITE STANCE. This is not in fact a matter of opinion, the decision is objectively bad for the tournament. "I don't mind it being on the same day" is a shitty opinion, because it doesn't take into account all the reasons why it's bad. "Oh it doesn't affect me" shows a complete lack of empathy and understanding. It affects people that matter and it will eventually affect you too in real, tangible ways that even your ignorance will begin to understand if this scene keeps getting kicked in the teeth by poor decisions. I'm deadly serious when I say the only people who are ok with this either don't understand the issue or are too damn apathetic for their opinion to matter anyway.
Quality reasoning: "Everyone with a different opinion is an idiot". Can you imagine that people don't care for this e-sports/business side of gaming? Sure I would like to have the events on different weekends to be able to see more, but it simply does not bother me that much. I have no stocks in esport; I like to watch the games and whether dota/lol/sc have x amount of viewers does not bother me at all.
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On July 24 2013 03:52 grs wrote:
Quality reasoning: "Everyone with a different opinion is an idiot". Can you imagine that people don't care for this e-sports/business side of gaming? Sure I would like to have the events on different weekends to be able to see more, but it simply does not bother me that much. I have no stocks in esport; I like to watch the games and whether dota/lol/sc have x amount of viewers does not bother me at all.
Turns out that not every argument has two equally valid sides to it. If you don't care about X Y and Z then stop talking, your opinion isn't useful. The damage this will do is an objective fact that is inescapable, how much it affects you is not relevant.
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On July 24 2013 03:54 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 03:52 grs wrote:
Quality reasoning: "Everyone with a different opinion is an idiot". Can you imagine that people don't care for this e-sports/business side of gaming? Sure I would like to have the events on different weekends to be able to see more, but it simply does not bother me that much. I have no stocks in esport; I like to watch the games and whether dota/lol/sc have x amount of viewers does not bother me at all.
Turns out that not every argument has two equally valid sides to it. If you don't care about X Y and Z then stop talking, your opinion isn't useful. The damage this will do is an objective fact that is inescapable, how much it affects you is not relevant.
The problem is that there is no other side to the argument. Everyone agrees with it sucking, but for some reason we are not upset enough for you.
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TB, I agree with you that we should all be furious (I'm certainly not happy about it) and it will be extremely detrimental to SC2, but what do you propose as a solution then? ASUS ROG is the week before, and I don't know what's coming up afterward (not Dreamhack, nor MLG but I dunno about IEM after this weekend), and they still have to get through another season before the grand final at Blizzcon. How do they fit in a whole other season while changing the date?
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On July 24 2013 03:54 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 03:52 grs wrote:
Quality reasoning: "Everyone with a different opinion is an idiot". Can you imagine that people don't care for this e-sports/business side of gaming? Sure I would like to have the events on different weekends to be able to see more, but it simply does not bother me that much. I have no stocks in esport; I like to watch the games and whether dota/lol/sc have x amount of viewers does not bother me at all.
Turns out that not every argument has two equally valid sides to it. If you don't care about X Y and Z then stop talking, your opinion isn't useful. The damage this will do is an objective fact that is inescapable, how much it affects you is not relevant.
Whether my opinion is useful or not, is not yours to judge. Maybe I did not get the memo that made you dictator over all opinions on all gaming related issues, but until that time, my opinion is as valid as yours.
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EPT
