EPTThe only other person I can remember right now who complains a lot about balance is/was Naniwa (who I'm a big fan of). And I think he mostly only complained about Zerg
Cry Me a River - Balance Poll - Page 11
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Jacmert
Canada1709 Posts
The only other person I can remember right now who complains a lot about balance is/was Naniwa (who I'm a big fan of). And I think he mostly only complained about Zerg | ||
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xAdra
Singapore1858 Posts
On July 09 2013 23:34 Plansix wrote: This thread is great and shows that everyone whines all the time about balance. From personal experience, the whine comes from many sources: Zergs: Whine in game the most, normally when they lose to pressure or forget to build units. Also when they slam the same roach/hydra army into your base 5 times for 15 minutes and then claim protoss is the A-move race. They whine about having no anti air a lot, even though they build 4-6 queens every game, which is the best. Terrans: Take the cake for forum whining and being the most dramatic. Providing questionable win rate stats and discounting data shows terran winning is their specialty. Every balance change is the death of terran, they will never be able to harass against and they have no options. They claim their race is the hardest, they have the lowest win rates and they are a dying breed on the ladder. Terrans have been the Drama Queens of SC2, Lump Space Princess style. Protoss: Protoss are best at the counter balance whine, when they whine about balance in response to other people whining. We also love to complain about how much gas our units cost or claim that some of our awesome units are really bad(like DTs). We justify 2 base timings by blaming the map and love to bitch about mutas. We also complain about stargate, claiming its not useful vs terran, but then shamelessly proxy it for a cheap win. We are all bitches and everyone whines, which isn't the worst problem to have. Wow, this is incredibly accurate. I really do agree with this, particularly the Zergs and Terrans. Zerg calling protoss the 1-A race has always boggled my mind, particularly after, as you said, slamming roach/hydras into my base for minutes on end. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15732 Posts
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goldenwitch
United States338 Posts
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
Let's assume that every player does not vote for his own race as most complaining race. There are 25% Zerg players in the vots right now. the stats for the most complaining race are: Terran Players 17% plus Protoss Players 8% is also 25%. That would mean that every non Zerg player voted Zerg as the most complaining race! :D | ||
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dr.fahrenheit
Austria101 Posts
First of all: thanks everybody for voting and more importantly posting in an overall positive and constructive manner (a feared much, much worse) Second of all: though it seems the results are very clear and definitive, they should be treated with caution, be carefully interpreted and not be taken as absolute fact. Furthermore only the first two polls are (and should be) discussed, because of the possibility of multiple votes on the last four polls. Poll: Which players have expressed their complaints about balance the most? Zerg Players (1490) Terran Players (360) Protoss Players (169) Random Players (20) 2039 total votes Your vote: Which players have expressed their complaints about balance the most? (Vote): Zerg Players Poll: I am a... Terran Player (600) Protoss Player (564) Zerg Player (466) Random Player (206) 1836 total votes Your vote: I am a... (Vote): Terran Player What do the polls show? Poll 1: A very clear picture. 74% of all people who voted have the impression that Zerg players did express their dissatisfaction the most about questions of balance until now. The second outstanding thing is, that only 8% had the feeling that Protoss did complain the most. Poll 2: This served mainly as control tool to make sure that every race is represented equally in Poll 1 (random is not regarded as race obviously), which was not the case. Zerg players are underrepresented and there is a slight deviation in total votes between Poll 1 and Poll2. What does that mean for Poll 1: not much. If we add the “missing” zerg players as well as the difference in votes between Poll 1 and Poll 2 under the very generous assumption that these “missing cases” would not pick Zerg as the race which complains the most but terran, the percentage would change from 74% to 63% for Zerg and from 17% to 29% for Terran. This would still indicate the same trend as it does now. What do these results indicate? This is really the interesting question, and the most important thing to note here is: they indicate nothing about the actual present and past state of balance of the game but - in combination with the posts in this thread - allow some interesting theories to why Zerg seem to complain so much and Protoss seem to complain so little. All that follows now is written under the assumption that all SC 2 players regardless if the play Z, T, P, or R a basically the same, and have the same prerequisites (for rage, frustration, patience, talent etc.). Why do then Zerg complain so much and Protoss so little? The frustration Factor: There are some great posts in this thread from Zerg players describing their frustration when they lose a match. It’s not losing that is so frustrating (everyone has to deal with that) it is the way of losing that is regarded as the most frustrating thing and even more interesting: the general “reactionary” way of playing Zerg is pointed out to be frustrating. The feeling that Protoss and Terran are able to dictate the way a Zerg has to play the match and basically even only being able to win on “their conditions” sounds not very fun. Hypothesis #1: Playing Zerg is more frustrating than playing Protoss or Terran because wins are not as rewarding, losses are more discouraging due to the feeling of not being in control of the match. In reverse that would of course mean that Protoss wins are the most satisfying or their losses the least frustrating. I don’t know… (There’s a reason why it’s called ‘theory’) The ‘Idra Factor’: Sounds weird, but is has been brought up. Idra has been around since the dawn of SC 2 and it’s a fair assumption that the majority of the people who voted not only have heard of him but also know that he is famous for voicing his complaints in a very, let’s say ‘direct’ way. Is it possible that one guy alone is able to affect the perception of all Zerg players? Maybe, but what seems more likely is that his way of discussing certain issues caught on in his massive fanbase. Hypothesis #2: Zerg Players only seem to be complaining the most because of a very vocal group who have a visible and well known idol. The Terran Factor: Let’s face it: especially in the beginning of SC2 there has been a very long period of Terran domination on the professional level of play. GSL trophies were passed on from one Terran player to another after an exciting TvT final. (at least it felt that way). It would have been very bold to complain constantly about balance as Terran player in those days, and I think somehow this era still echoes into the present. Hypothesis #3: Zerg players only seem to be complaining the most because in comparison for a long time Terran players couldn’t voice their complaints openly without looking very ‘unreasonable’. Of course this still leaves open the protoss paradox, which I currently have no hypotheses on  That’s it from me, bear in mind that this are only wild hypotheses based loosely on a far from perfect poll and responses in this thread. | ||
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dr.fahrenheit
Austria101 Posts
This was the first thread I created and it was fun  It wasn't immediately closed (as I feared) and a lot of people actually participated (which I didn’t expect). Also if a mod reads this: is there a way to close the polls? It’s been 24 hours and I don’t think there will be any drastic changes anymore. | ||
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blizzdrugs
Albania2 Posts
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
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mati
Argentina114 Posts
im a zerg player, i never ever complain about balance, because i don't know... its seems pointless for me, just go practice more!, but i do agree my fellows zeros wine the most by far! (is very annoying even for zerg players!) I always felt that the macro mechanics were so different to the other 2, has something to do with it (Also the micro mechanics are a somehow different, because we usually get bigger numbers of units, and its harder to pint point each unit), for some time i felt that mastering the injecting, larva management, was a really hard task, and that i should get rewarded for doing it, and with all the time that macro take from us, we should have others bonus to compensate... and there fore, complains about balance.... but after some years i tried to play T and P, and their macro mechanics end up being as hard, or even harder than Zerg... at the end, all i have to do is inject larvas really quick (that only take me 1 second now I'm so use to it) and then spend larvas as i fell suit... but on late game, terranes got to keep macro building different units with difference building time, so the clicking on each building don't have a periodical timing to it, it varies, a lot... and it very hard to keep all your building workings... while all we need to do is to keep injecting larvas... it won't matter much, if it take 15 seconds to build, or 50 seconds after the click, we just wait and pick units at rallys points... I think new players complain more than experienced ones (it seems that way to me), and because macro mechanics are way harder for zerg than P or T for beginners player, it end up on more wine, but.. is unjustified.... FELLOWS ZERGS!!! PLEASE STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT EVERYTHINGGG!!!!!!!! WE ARE ALL EQUALLY SCREWW!!!! lol xD edit: is also interesting, that one of the most iconic protoss players in the world, MC, love to shout out loud Protoss Imba And thats make me wonders... if you think your race is the worst, most unbalanced... why the hell you play it! | ||
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JJH777
United States4415 Posts
Just saw this: http://www.playxp.com/sc2/jingjing/ and I definitely agree with the Koreans way more than this topic. Protoss whine the most. | ||
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midnight999
United States257 Posts
On July 10 2013 10:11 JJH777 wrote: These poll results are a complete joke. Did people forget about the sad zealot fanclub? Or how about the fact that TL actually made an official front page article about the supposed problem matchup for Protoss? Or hell just LR threads when Hero loses. Hero losing causes more whining than any other pro player in the game losing. Just saw this: http://www.playxp.com/sc2/jingjing/ and I definitely agree with the Koreans way more than this topic. Protoss whine the most. lol, were you planning to take these results seriously? | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On July 10 2013 09:02 dr.fahrenheit wrote: Why do then Zerg complain so much and Protoss so little? The frustration Factor: There are some great posts in this thread from Zerg players describing their frustration when they lose a match. It’s not losing that is so frustrating (everyone has to deal with that) it is the way of losing that is regarded as the most frustrating thing and even more interesting: the general “reactionary” way of playing Zerg is pointed out to be frustrating. The feeling that Protoss and Terran are able to dictate the way a Zerg has to play the match and basically even only being able to win on “their conditions” sounds not very fun. Theory #1: Playing Zerg is more frustrating than playing Protoss or Terran because wins are not as rewarding, losses are more discouraging due to the feeling of not being in control of the match. In reverse that would of course mean that Protoss wins are the most satisfying or their losses the least frustrating. I don’t know… (There’s a reason why it’s called ‘theory’) The ‘Idra Factor’: Sounds weird, but is has been brought up. Idra has been around since the dawn of SC 2 and it’s a fair assumption that the majority of the people who voted not only have heard of him but also know that he is famous for voicing his complaints in a very, let’s say ‘direct’ way. Is it possible that one guy alone is able to affect the perception of all Zerg players? Maybe, but what seems more likely is that his way of discussing certain issues caught on in his massive fanbase. Theory #2: Zerg Players only seem to be complaining the most because of a very vocal group who have a visible and well known idol. The Terran Factor: Let’s face it: especially in the beginning of SC2 there has been a very long period of Terran domination on the professional level of play. GSL trophies were passed on from one Terran player to another after an exciting TvT final. (at least it felt that way). It would have been very bold to complain constantly about balance as Terran player in those days, and I think somehow this era still echoes into the present. Theory#3: Zerg players only seem to be complaining the most because in comparison for a long time Terran players couldn’t voice their complaints openly without looking very ‘unreasonable’. Of course this still leaves open the protoss paradox, which I currently have no theories on That’s it from me, bear in mind that this are only wild theories based loosely on a far from perfect poll and responses in this thread. Good summary, interesting discussion =) I do think #1 and #2 are linked, though I didn't follow Idra in BW so can't speak much towards that. | ||
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sage_francis
France1823 Posts
On July 10 2013 09:44 mati wrote: edit: is also interesting, that one of the most iconic protoss players in the world, MC, love to shout out loud Protoss Imba rofl are you serious? Mc called "imba" everything in this game except trees... | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
That was one of the darkest era's for pretty much any race, and also the only time I recall that balance whine became more than just a writer's joke on major articles. | ||
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AFCArt
Netherlands34 Posts
However I can imagine if Z would have the same options for harass and you would do so successfully it will make you feel a lot better about your win than " i hold off all the stuff now i can macro and out-mass him". I know that there are some roach baneling all ins etc but I'm mostly talking about an early equivalent to a banshee, hellbat, DT, phoenix, warp prism or any other fun thing that won't make you win most of the time but can get you ahead. With zerg you mostly get ahead by droning and maybe an occasional speedling runby. Of course this is just theorycrafting | ||
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D4V3Z02
Germany693 Posts
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
There have been quite a few " 'cause we're cool/calm/manly and Plansix's "Protoss are best at the counter balance whine, when they whine about balance in response to other people whining." I still encounter far more whine from protosses on ladder and private chat rooms, maybe they just want to hide their forum identities while whining their arses off elsewhere? On July 10 2013 10:11 JJH777 wrote: These poll results are a complete joke. Did people forget about the sad zealot fanclub? Or how about the fact that TL actually made an official front page article about the supposed problem matchup for Protoss? Or hell just LR threads when Hero loses. Hero losing causes more whining than any other pro player in the game losing. Just saw this: http://www.playxp.com/sc2/jingjing/ and I definitely agree with the Koreans way more than this topic. Protoss whine the most.[/QUOTE] Yeah, I remember those! I also recall at least one thread where SaSe posted complaints/feelings about how hard certain things were as protoss or against one race (I don't remember what) getting a lot of very strong opinions in response. I thought he wrote (many things, one being) something about not being able to counter something and many people posted responses to that exact point, but I'd have to see it again to remember what point/trouble it was. (I remember that post seeming quite QQ to me though) That's just one person once though, obviously.Funny korean thread, thanks for that. uhhh...that's terran they're saying whines the most, protoss is blue. | ||
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dr.fahrenheit
Austria101 Posts
On July 10 2013 19:09 D4V3Z02 wrote: What a polemic thread, wow. This can't work. I can't believe how people can take this results seriously and think they are some sort of psychologist. The most of the results are fake anyways, especially the zerg one makes no sense. This is the worst trol attempt I've ever seen. Thanks for explaining how the world works. Obviously you know it all and if it doesn't make sense to you there is no way that it can make sense to anyone else. You don't have to be a psychologist to see that you are just a self centered wiseass who thinks he is the king of his own little pathetic world where everyone who has a different view than yours is wrong. | ||
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