EPTSo imo, it's split between Terran (Queen buff to end of WoL) and Zerg (start of HotS to present, mostly patchzergs)
Cry Me a River - Balance Poll - Page 9
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TRAvian
23 Posts
So imo, it's split between Terran (Queen buff to end of WoL) and Zerg (start of HotS to present, mostly patchzergs) | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
/* Whine activated */ I think everyone here should play zerg and understand how frustrating it is to play ZvT for instance. I played Starcraft 2 since the beta, I freaking love this game and I made lots of guide about it in the strategy section. I usually get a bit mad when I get cheesed, but never when I lose a macro game. Now, every ZvT feels like a cheese, every widow mine hit makes me want to cry and shout at the same time. I never stopped playing for balance reason, but now it's been 3 months I didn't play just because the game makes me angry more than anything else. It looks cool on stream, but just picture what it takes to play against widow mine: A burrowed widow mine, at an KNOWN location, requires you to: 1: Morph an overseer, 2: Move the overseer and spot the widow mine 3: Pull the overseer back so he won't die , but not too far so you can see the widow mine 4: Select ONE zergling off of your zergling pack 5: Sacrifice him to trigger the mine 6: Kill the widow mine with some more zergling IF there is no widow mine left, otherwise, you are back to step n*2, or n*1 if you lost the overseer. If you try to kill widow mine with mutalisk, expect to lose the game anytime soon. This is A HUGE investment in multitasking, even more though because while this happens, you are supposed to do the following and very multitasking-intensive things: -Defend multiple drops -Inject your hatches -Spread your creep and overlord -Try to make counter-attacks (Even though they will fail to random defensive widow mine and reinforcement) At the end, you are completely overwhelm, even though your APM is above average or simply superior to your opponent. Widow mine allow terrans to just rally to your base in continuous and endless waves, you can't even use muta for harassment any more, but still you are compelled to use them to deal with medivacs... You are depressed, you feel like a victim. You are scared to leave your base because there might be widow mine. I was in a semi-pro team, and all our zerg including myself left, because the game was just so painful to play because of ZvT. Statistics may look balanced, but I all see is zerg getting stomped even in the pro-scene, only some survive longer by using all-ins or by being far more better than their opponents, and it is really not fun to watch.. | ||
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midnight999
United States257 Posts
On July 10 2013 00:16 aXa wrote: I reall think that zerg complains the most, and rightfully so. It's not so much about balance, but about how fun or frustrating it is to play a race at a certain level (Masters, to be precise) /* Whine activated */ I think everyone here should play zerg and understand how frustrating it is to play ZvT for instance. I played Starcraft 2 since the beta, I freaking love this game and I made lots of guide about it in the strategy section. I usually get a bit mad when I get cheesed, but never when I lose a macro game. Now, every ZvT feels like a cheese, every widow mine hit makes me want to cry and shout at the same time. I never stopped playing for balance reason, but now it's been 3 months I didn't play just because the game makes me angry more than anything else. It looks cool on stream, but just picture what it takes to play against widow mine: A burrowed widow mine, at an KNOWN location, requires you to: 1: Morph an overseer, 2: Move the overseer and spot the widow mine 3: Pull the overseer back so he won't die , but not too far so you can see the widow mine 4: Select ONE zergling off of your zergling pack 5: Sacrifice him to trigger the mine 6: Kill the widow mine with some more zergling IF there is no widow mine left, otherwise, you are back to step n*2, or n*1 if you lost the overseer. If you try to kill widow mine with mutalisk, expect to lose the game anytime soon. This is A HUGE investment in multitasking, even more though because while this happens, you are supposed to do the following and very multitasking-intensive things: -Defend multiple drops -Inject your hatches -Spread your creep and overlord -Try to make counter-attacks (Even though they will fail to random defensive widow mine and reinforcement) At the end, you are completely overwhelm, even though your APM is above average or simply superior to your opponent. Widow mine allow terrans to just rally to your base in continuous and endless waves, you can't even use muta for harassment any more, but still you are compelled to use them to deal with medivacs... You are depressed, you feel like a victim. You are scared to leave your base because there might be widow mine. I was in a semi-pro team, and all our zerg including myself left, because the game was just so painful to play because of ZvT. Statistics may look balanced, but I all see is zerg getting stomped even in the pro-scene, only some survive longer by using all-ins or by being far more better than their opponents, and it is really not fun to watch.. That's not the case in Korea though. Some people deal with it pretty effectively. | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On July 09 2013 21:20 Liquid`TLO wrote: This whole thread shows what's really wrong with balancing and balance discussion. It's way too emotional and subjective. Opinions should matter very little (sure some experience of the highest tier players can be important but should only be used as indicators what to research) and we need to get some real scientific data into this. I want to see huge spreadsheets full of statistics and transparency of all the data blizzard has available. But that's because you're the Übermensch. In all seriousness, TLO is right, how you feel about something doesn't matter, nobody really cares how you feel about it. The only thing that matters is whether or not something is unfair in an objective sense, and since fairness only really matters at the highest level since bad players can always learn to play better, ease of execution isn't really a concern. | ||
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Irre
United States646 Posts
On July 10 2013 00:16 aXa wrote: I reall think that zerg complains the most, and rightfully so. It's not so much about balance, but about how fun or frustrating it is to play a race at a certain level (Masters, to be precise) /* Whine activated */ I think everyone here should play zerg and understand how frustrating it is to play ZvT for instance. I played Starcraft 2 since the beta, I freaking love this game and I made lots of guide about it in the strategy section. I usually get a bit mad when I get cheesed, but never when I lose a macro game. Now, every ZvT feels like a cheese, every widow mine hit makes me want to cry and shout at the same time. I never stopped playing for balance reason, but now it's been 3 months I didn't play just because the game makes me angry more than anything else. It looks cool on stream, but just picture what it takes to play against widow mine: A burrowed widow mine, at an KNOWN location, requires you to: 1: Morph an overseer, 2: Move the overseer and spot the widow mine 3: Pull the overseer back so he won't die , but not too far so you can see the widow mine 4: Select ONE zergling off of your zergling pack 5: Sacrifice him to trigger the mine 6: Kill the widow mine with some more zergling IF there is no widow mine left, otherwise, you are back to step n*2, or n*1 if you lost the overseer. If you try to kill widow mine with mutalisk, expect to lose the game anytime soon. This is A HUGE investment in multitasking, even more though because while this happens, you are supposed to do the following and very multitasking-intensive things: -Defend multiple drops -Inject your hatches -Spread your creep and overlord -Try to make counter-attacks (Even though they will fail to random defensive widow mine and reinforcement) At the end, you are completely overwhelm, even though your APM is above average or simply superior to your opponent. Widow mine allow terrans to just rally to your base in continuous and endless waves, you can't even use muta for harassment any more, but still you are compelled to use them to deal with medivacs... You are depressed, you feel like a victim. You are scared to leave your base because there might be widow mine. I was in a semi-pro team, and all our zerg including myself left, because the game was just so painful to play because of ZvT. Statistics may look balanced, but I all see is zerg getting stomped even in the pro-scene, only some survive longer by using all-ins or by being far more better than their opponents, and it is really not fun to watch.. I think this post sums the poll results/discussion up nicely lmao | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
On July 10 2013 00:39 Irre wrote: I think this post sums the poll results/discussion up nicely lmao Always happy to help. Anyway, people tend to forget that balance doesn't quite so much affect the pro level. Masters and low GM are hurt the most. What makes a pro become a champion is dedication, training and mental states, despite balance issues. At master level, if you give a good advantage balance wise to a race or another, it really changes your performance and the fun you get from playing. | ||
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EmilA
Denmark4618 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 10 2013 00:50 EmilA wrote: This is like asking who the culprits of WW2 were.. How anybody could not vote Zerg is just beyond me. What you saw when blord infestor turtle was a bulletproof way of winning for any mid-tier european zerg to beat top 3 korean terrans was nothing in comparison to the Zerg whine when terrans came up with a new strategy (How long did it take to "balance" ghosts? 3 weeks?) I don't know, Terran had a good run there for a while, with a number of passive aggressive threads about how their race was dying. Though to be fair, it always has been the same group of like 15-25 terrans posting over and over and over that the world was ending. | ||
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 10 2013 00:54 DjayEl wrote: Yeah, basically with Zerg its like "how do I get to get my army roasted but not THAT much so I can survive and maybe grasp some small advantages that would give me an edge in the late game so I can get less and less roasted", while when you play Terran it's more like "Woohoo! Let's hunt some Zerg and shoot at stuff and burrow mines everywhere!". It's a lot more fun and you don't play with the I-am-a-victim-how-can-I-find-my-way-out mindset. Your not supposed to complain in the "who complains most thread", just so you know. | ||
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
Your not supposed to complain in the "who complains most thread", just so you know. But still this thread needs people to illustrate and legitimate all this math stuff about whining, and I'm always glad to help. | ||
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NEEDZMOAR
Sweden1277 Posts
I play Z and I think following race expresses its complaints the most: 340 votes. Okay community, okay. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
On July 09 2013 08:55 dr.fahrenheit wrote: Apparently, terrans (and only terrans) can't spell Random. | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
like 1,5 years ago: protoss near the end of wol: terran hots-now: zerg | ||
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On July 10 2013 01:20 willstertben wrote: the race that is the most underpowered. like 1,5 years ago: protoss near the end of wol: terran hots-now: zerg There was no point during SC2 history when zergs didn't consider themselves as the weakest race. Even during BL/Infestor era. Seems like balance isn't relevant, it's all about the mindset. (which is influenced by 'amazing vocal people' like Idra/Destiny/LaLush/Nerchio and etc.) | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Poll: How many polls have you voted in? I was honest and voted only in the one poll that represents my main race (20) Since when are poll threads allowed to stay open on TL.net? (5) Hellbats!!!!!!!!!!! (5) I was honest - I really play all races and random (2) I was dishonest and I'm ashamed of myself now (1) I was dishonest, who cares? (1) I was honest ;-) (0) 34 total votes Your vote: How many polls have you voted in? (Vote): I was honest and voted only in the one poll that represents my main race | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 10 2013 01:20 willstertben wrote: the race that is the most underpowered. like 1,5 years ago: protoss near the end of wol: terran hots-now: zerg Wrong, its terran is the most under powers. All the winrates I have carefully chosen will show you. Or its Protoss, because they never win anything, but place really high in a lot of events. Or maybe its zerg, because they haven't been underpowered in a while. Maybe bad players are under powered? | ||
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
On July 10 2013 01:33 Plansix wrote: Wrong, its terran is the most under powers. All the winrates I have carefully chosen will show you. Or its Protoss, because they never win anything, but place really high in a lot of events. Or maybe its zerg, because they haven't been underpowered in a while. Maybe bad players are under powered? my case. buff me. or nerf everyone else! | ||
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