EPTCry Me a River - Balance Poll - Page 8
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Liquid`TLO
Germany767 Posts
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
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GreenMash
Norway1746 Posts
On July 09 2013 21:31 Zrana wrote: The reason it seems like zerg complains the most is probably how zerg plays in macro games. We have very few reasonably decent all-ins compared to the other races and generally for most of the game we are defending whatever the T or P decides to throw at us with very little way to hit back until later in the game. Even if statistically zerg is doing OK, to the player on ladder it can often feel like being a punching bag for other races. Really? Zerg have no all inns? To me zerg seem to have a decent amount of all inns in all matchups. | ||
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Rammstorm
Germany1434 Posts
Zerg players tend to whine a lot, imo. Might have to do with pro gamers playing that race and the race mechanics,as zerg you are supposed to have more units(?) at the cost of having less ways to 'hard counter' other races(except the swarm host :s). | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On July 09 2013 21:20 Liquid`TLO wrote: This whole thread shows what's really wrong with balancing and balance discussion. It's way too emotional and subjective. Opinions should matter very little (sure some experience of the highest tier players can be important but should only be used as indicators what to research) and we need to get some real scientific data into this. I want to see huge spreadsheets full of statistics and transparency of all the data blizzard has available. True. Talking about balance is actually close to talking about religion. So subjective  | ||
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Ethi
Germany275 Posts
On July 09 2013 21:20 Liquid`TLO wrote: This whole thread shows what's really wrong with balancing and balance discussion. It's way too emotional and subjective. Opinions should matter very little (sure some experience of the highest tier players can be important but should only be used as indicators what to research) and we need to get some real scientific data into this. I want to see huge spreadsheets full of statistics and transparency of all the data blizzard has available. No, objectiveness sux. And zergs even whine about balance discussions. | ||
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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CYFAWS
Sweden275 Posts
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JKM
Denmark419 Posts
For the guy saying zerg lacks allin plays, I couldn't disagree more! It's just not as obvious as terran/protoss allin where you see a ton of gateways/barracks added to support army production, unlike zerg where you just have hatcheries. | ||
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Ecailles
23 Posts
This is a great post explaining it as well I play zerg and honestly, I feel like the 'zerg bitch the most' is a bit unfair, and is perhaps heavily skewed due to the pre-infestor BL period. pre-infestor/bl zerg had a period where they would die a lot to simple collosus deathballs, (atleast I did) so I could see how that could cause some complaints. But after infestor BL was discovered, we finally had something to deal with it. I also feel it is unfair to blame patch-zergs : there was simply no strategy that was as effective in the lategame. With the +range queen coming into the game only later aswell, in the early game we' d finally be less vulnerable to a simple helionrunby aswell. With HotS, zerg has, in my eyes, gained a lot of new opportunities with units such as the viper, and there is no reason to complain anymore - not for me anyways. I think if there was one race I would rage about when losing, it'd had to be protoss, just due to the -what feels to me- large amounts of all-ins I get thrown at me on the ladder. (im diamond, meaning my macro fails every once in awhile, and thus leaving me very vulnerable to all-ins when I get an 'unlucky' supplyblock or something like that). So yes, in the first years of WoL I would agree that the majority of complaints came from zerg, but at this moment I do not feel that way, or atleast I dont feel like the game is unfair towards my race right now. Sure, hellbats are strong, but I can deal with them if I just get everything at the right time. If you are going to watch a stream of, lets say idra, then yeah, you might get the feeling that zerg are the biggest whiners out there. But idra does not represent the opinion of the entire race obviously. Conclusion : Right now, I don't believe you can say a thing like 'x race complains the most'. All races have good opportunities, and I am sure a rational player realises that. I also think the early WoL period should NOT be representative for the entire lifespan Also its hilarious how protoss players say they don't whine that much when pretty much they have not received a nerf in almost two years now I believe besides losing the ability to warp in on the high ground. On July 09 2013 21:58 Ethi wrote: No, objectiveness sux. And zergs even whine about balance discussions. A player, and a professional player at that, gives a reply thats not just yelling NO ZERG DONT CRY NO NO NO and brings up a good points, is told he whines.....lol | ||
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Kontrax
Germany84 Posts
So they vote for Z even if it is maybe not true. | ||
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RandomAccount#106470
Lithuania1506 Posts
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Greenei
Germany1754 Posts
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On July 09 2013 23:04 Ecailles wrote: I honestly feel like everyone says zerg is because of the patch zerg bandwagon and like others have said the BL infestor days made everyone mad. This is a great post explaining it as well Also its hilarious how protoss players say they don't whine that much when pretty much they have not received a nerf in almost two years now I believe besides losing the ability to warp in on the high ground. A player, and a professional player at that, gives a reply thats not just yelling NO ZERG DONT CRY NO NO NO and brings up a good points, is told he whines.....lol Blink was nerfed, twice. And why did Protoss ever need to be nerfed? One player(MVP) has more GSL titles than our entire race has had. And considering how long we've gone without being the best race in terms of results, I severely doubt we have whined as much. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
From personal experience, the whine comes from many sources: Zergs: Whine in game the most, normally when they lose to pressure or forget to build units. Also when they slam the same roach/hydra army into your base 5 times for 15 minutes and then claim protoss is the A-move race. They whine about having no anti air a lot, even though they build 4-6 queens every game, which is the best. Terrans: Take the cake for forum whining and being the most dramatic. Providing questionable win rate stats and discounting data shows terran winning is their specialty. Every balance change is the death of terran, they will never be able to harass against and they have no options. They claim their race is the hardest, they have the lowest win rates and they are a dying breed on the ladder. Terrans have been the Drama Queens of SC2, Lump Space Princess style. Protoss: Protoss are best at the counter balance whine, when they whine about balance in response to other people whining. We also love to complain about how much gas our units cost or claim that some of our awesome units are really bad(like DTs). We justify 2 base timings by blaming the map and love to bitch about mutas. We also complain about stargate, claiming its not useful vs terran, but then shamelessly proxy it for a cheap win. We are all bitches and everyone whines, which isn't the worst problem to have. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On July 09 2013 21:20 Liquid`TLO wrote: This whole thread shows what's really wrong with balancing and balance discussion. It's way too emotional and subjective. Opinions should matter very little (sure some experience of the highest tier players can be important but should only be used as indicators what to research) and we need to get some real scientific data into this. I want to see huge spreadsheets full of statistics and transparency of all the data blizzard has available. Tbh not many things are easier than manipulating statistics. Not to mention you then get alot of discussions about which data should be included. | ||
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Iyerbeth
England2410 Posts
Personally, I play[ed] Zerg and never whined about balance to others, though it is helpful that I'm bad enough at the game that I don't think I've ever lost because of balance. That said, I have basically quit playing the game because of my feelings regarding the addition of one unit in particular which as much as I have tried to convince myself otherwise seems extremely unfair, so maybe I'm just more polite and quiet in my whining.  | ||
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Prox
Netherlands174 Posts
Leaving those out of the equation I personally believe Terran are more unhappy with current and previous balance than zerg. | ||
Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
Goto 4:55 Now guess who won TWO GSLS within 3 months of this interview o.O http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_StarCraft_II_League | ||
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dr.fahrenheit
Austria101 Posts
On July 09 2013 21:20 Liquid`TLO wrote: This whole thread shows what's really wrong with balancing and balance discussion. It's way too emotional and subjective. Opinions should matter very little (sure some experience of the highest tier players can be important but should only be used as indicators what to research) and we need to get some real scientific data into this. I want to see huge spreadsheets full of statistics and transparency of all the data blizzard has available. It really wasn’t intended to be charged with emotions along the lines of „All this guys do is whine/bitch etc.“ All I wanted was a somewhat representative picture of the overall situation, the interpretation of that picture is a whole other thing… Complaining or the expression of dissatisfaction should never be equalized with whining/bitching and treated like a bad thing, but rather be treated as a starting cause to look into the reasons why so many people are not satisfied. (I already have some theories which I will write down later in a recap) | ||
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