EPTThis is an extra special one for me, with the legendary herO. Him and I covered his best Proleague memory, thoughts on the GOAT debate, the reason Protoss has been struggling and more! I hope you all enjoy it =D
herO “Everyone says that Serral is the GOAT”
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StarcraftHistorian
United States135 Posts
This is an extra special one for me, with the legendary herO. Him and I covered his best Proleague memory, thoughts on the GOAT debate, the reason Protoss has been struggling and more! I hope you all enjoy it =D | ||
Poopi
France12819 Posts
I am not very surprised by the goat part, when zerg is played perfectly, there is no hole. You can't do this with terran though and/or it's usually harder to maintain that level of perfection with that race, depending on patches / maps. I still think Rogue is underestimated by the community, it takes some INSANE talent to punch above his "theoretical" weight in so many offline bo7. Sure, he used broken things to his advantage, but he beat so many players that were better "on paper" that it's mindblowing to me | ||
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Antithesis
Germany1168 Posts
As for the GoaT part, I did not expected anything else. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25195 Posts
On June 22 2024 00:35 Poopi wrote: Thanks for the interview! I am not very surprised by the goat part, when zerg is played perfectly, there is no hole. You can't do this with terran though and/or it's usually harder to maintain that level of perfection with that race, depending on patches / maps. I still think Rogue is underestimated by the community, it takes some INSANE talent to punch above his "theoretical" weight in so many offline bo7. Sure, he used broken things to his advantage, but he beat so many players that were better "on paper" that it's mindblowing to me It’s the most overrated stat in StarCraft :p Although I feel Rogue is somewhat underrated by many to be fair Aside from Serral who’s putting up genuinely ridiculous numbers, Maru is the highest up there in win rates in meaningful games since 2023 thru now. The gap between Serral and other top Zergs is bigger than Maru and his nearest Terran competition. If it is a matter that Zerg played perfectly > the other races, perhaps that may be the case but at least in recent enough times it’s only Serral who’s coming close to doing that. | ||
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tigera6
3380 Posts
On June 22 2024 00:55 WombaT wrote: It’s the most overrated stat in StarCraft :p Although I feel Rogue is somewhat underrated by many to be fair Aside from Serral who’s putting up genuinely ridiculous numbers, Maru is the highest up there in win rates in meaningful games since 2023 thru now. The gap between Serral and other top Zergs is bigger than Maru and his nearest Terran competition. If it is a matter that Zerg played perfectly > the other races, perhaps that may be the case but at least in recent enough times it’s only Serral who’s coming close to doing that. The 2nd best Zerg is Reynor or Dark, who have won a World Championship and multiple offline events (DH/Gamers8/GSL). The 2nd best Terran is either Clem or Cure who hasnt even reach the Final or a World Championship, and has won a combine of TWO offline event (1GSL and 1DH). And you think the gap between Serral and the 2nd Zerg is BIGGER than Maru and the 2nd Terran? | ||
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StarcraftHistorian
United States135 Posts
On June 22 2024 01:26 tigera6 wrote: The 2nd best Zerg is Reynor or Dark, who have won a World Championship and multiple offline events (DH/Gamers8/GSL). The 2nd best Terran is either Clem or Cure who hasnt even reach the Final or a World Championship, and has won a combine of TWO offline event (1GSL and 1DH). And you think the gap between Serral and the 2nd Zerg is BIGGER than Maru and the 2nd Terran? To rank Dark or Reynor above Rogue on an all time list is a joke dude | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25195 Posts
On June 22 2024 01:26 tigera6 wrote: The 2nd best Zerg is Reynor or Dark, who have won a World Championship and multiple offline events (DH/Gamers8/GSL). The 2nd best Terran is either Clem or Cure who hasnt even reach the Final or a World Championship, and has won a combine of TWO offline event (1GSL and 1DH). And you think the gap between Serral and the 2nd Zerg is BIGGER than Maru and the 2nd Terran? Cure made the finals of Gamers 8, he’s in the Ro4 of GSL yet again. If you read my post I specified since 2023 started. And I was talking about win rates in response to Poopi’s comments. By the historic standards of SC2 Maru has had a great year/18months, on balance better than everyone bar Serral. Even with that fantastic period, other Terrans are still closer to Maru than other Zergs are to Serral, if we’re talking consistency. If the argument is that optimal Zerg play is easier to maintain, well it’s only Serral who is actually doing it | ||
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Poopi
France12819 Posts
On June 22 2024 01:59 StarcraftHistorian wrote: To rank Dark or Reynor above Rogue on an all time list is a joke dude Since he was referring to the previous post, which said: "Maru is the highest up there in win rates in meaningful games since 2023 thru now. The gap between Serral and other top Zergs is bigger than Maru and his nearest Terran competition.", I think he was referring to Clem and Cure winrates since 2023 to now, and Reynor / Dark for zerg since 2023 to now. I didn't check the stats, maybe it's Solar but it can't really be Rogue who was in the military Please correct me @tigera6 if I misunderstood. | ||
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StarcraftHistorian
United States135 Posts
On June 22 2024 02:18 Poopi wrote: Since he was referring to the previous post, which said: "Maru is the highest up there in win rates in meaningful games since 2023 thru now. The gap between Serral and other top Zergs is bigger than Maru and his nearest Terran competition.", I think he was referring to Clem and Cure winrates since 2023 to now, and Reynor / Dark for zerg since 2023 to now. I didn't check the stats, maybe it's Solar but it can't really be Rogue who was in the military Please correct me @tigera6 if I misunderstood. Ohhhh I see, this makes sense | ||
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tigera6
3380 Posts
As for Womba, even if you consider 2023 till now, there hasnt been much consistency from other Terran. Cure still struggle in top TvZ, and his TvP has dropped off considerably since the previous patch. Clem has not done much in offline tournament except for Atlanta. Oliveira pop up hugely twice but other than that has not showed up neither. Meanwhile Dark make multiple Ro4 and Reynor won Gamers8 despite his inconsistency. I just dont buy the gap is bigger between the top 2 Zerg than the top 2 Terran. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25195 Posts
Cure’s got a Katowice Ro4, a Gamer’s 8 final, a GSL final and two GSL Ro4s (one still ongoing) Those are solid results, the top Zergs may have slightly better ones, and overall be still maybe slightly stronger at a punch. But my point is that Serral is further ahead of other Zergs than Maru is of fellow Ts, and I think this is broadly correct in terms of overall results. When I last crunched numbers Serral’s match win rate was genuinely preposterous, and Maru was second in the field. And if Maru is second, by default other Zergs will be even further back. That gap if memory serves was 14% in match win rate. Fourteen. And the set win rate is a big gap as well i dont think there's ever been a period in SC2 where the number one player has such a gap in numbers to the number 2 Maru isn’t close to a 14% match win rate ahead of his peers, Serral is, ergo I think it’s hard to argue against Serral being a massive outlier | ||
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sc2turtlepants
35 Posts
On June 22 2024 01:26 tigera6 wrote: The 2nd best Zerg is Reynor or Dark, who have won a World Championship and multiple offline events (DH/Gamers8/GSL). The 2nd best Terran is either Clem or Cure who hasnt even reach the Final or a World Championship, and has won a combine of TWO offline event (1GSL and 1DH). And you think the gap between Serral and the 2nd Zerg is BIGGER than Maru and the 2nd Terran? He very clearly listed the timeframe he was referring to, which clearly matches up with the last couple of balance patches. It's not his fault you can't read. | ||
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njleslu2024
57 Posts
On June 22 2024 01:26 tigera6 wrote: The 2nd best Zerg is Reynor or Dark, who have won a World Championship and multiple offline events (DH/Gamers8/GSL). The 2nd best Terran is either Clem or Cure who hasnt even reach the Final or a World Championship, and has won a combine of TWO offline event (1GSL and 1DH). And you think the gap between Serral and the 2nd Zerg is BIGGER than Maru and the 2nd Terran? If you refer to WC you are talking about achievements instead of current level of playing, Clem is the second best Terran at this second but he is not competitive in the GOAT list. Reynor may be arguably the top 10 in the list but he is not matching Clem nor Maru currenlty. | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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Cactus66
23 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25195 Posts
On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote: I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it | ||
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jack_less
77 Posts
On June 22 2024 00:35 Poopi wrote: I am not very surprised by the goat part, when zerg is played perfectly, there is no hole. I don't think you've listened to or read herO. He's not talking about Zerg, he's talking about Serral, on the topic of goat. small difference, not that you're reading too much into it. | ||
Waxangel
United States33369 Posts
It's funny that the word "aura" has become part of the popular vernacular in the last few month, cause it's a pretty good way to describe that fear factor Serral has. [Tangent: The Korean community called this "force" when the bonjwa debates were at their peak in the late 2000's. The arguments over how much 'force' Jaedong had compared to his predecessors was worse than any GOAT debate you'll read on TL.net] [Tangent 2: 'Bonjwa' has been basically a dead/deprecated meme in Korea since like 2010, but it's actually the foreign community who continued to have a weird obsession with it. Read my essay about the rise and fall of the term in Korean fandom  .] | ||
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StarcraftHistorian
United States135 Posts
On June 23 2024 02:10 Waxangel wrote: The fear/respect of other players is pretty high up on my list of reasons why I have Serral at #1 on my GOAT list (narrowly beating Rogue). I don't think there's been a player in the history of the game who has regularly been talked about with such deference by their peers. It's funny that the word "aura" is has become part of the popular vernacular in the last few month, cause it's a pretty good way to describe that fear factor Serral has. [Tangent: The Korean community called this "force" when the bonjwa debates were at their peak in the late 2000's. The arguments over how much 'force' Jaedong had compared to his predecessors was worse than any GOAT debate you'll read on TL.net] [Tangent 2: 'Bonjwa' has been basically a dead/deprecated meme in Korea since like 2010, but it's actually the foreign community who continued to have a weird obsession with it. Read my essay about the rise and fall of the term in Korean fandom .]Interesting input and insight as always Wax | ||
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Cactus66
23 Posts
On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote: At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it Not that you're necessarily disagreeing with me. But who would have better opinions on 'all time' than the Korean pro's that span the Maru timeline and are still active today? Doesn't surprise me that the current Europeans back Serral. When Hero says that everyone thinks Serral is the goat, I'm assuming he means his peers who have spanned multiple eras. | ||
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