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France12762 Posts
On June 27 2024 23:23 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2024 04:49 Argonauta wrote:On June 27 2024 04:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 27 2024 04:14 radracer wrote:
Serral ESL Spring 2024 path:
Serral(W) Nice
Serral(W) herO
Serral(W) Oliviera
Serral(W) Maru
Maru GSL S1 2024 path:
Maru(W) soO
Maru(W) Shin
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(L) herO
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(W) Cure
Maru(W) herO
Pretty weak path maru had, only worthy opponent is herO on his path
Oliveria & Maru > all those Koreans (in current meta and map pool)
Ahh yes- having to go through more good players in a prep tournament. Clearly not as hard as going through 4 players. Makes total sense! Strong grasp on logic + perspective. Clearly no hyperbole or fanboyism going on here. Genuine discussion. Allow. So beating more players is more important than the quality of players beaten? And prep tournies are inherently harder? It depends which way you look at it. Neither has a clear answer and there are varying opinions on each. Sure, the top players may face better prepared lesser players, thus the difference in skill can be brought closer when they play. That is hard. But it is also harder for lesser players to beat top players in a weekender tournament and win it with less prep. Serral beating Oliveira, herO, and Maru is not an easy path for anyone, especially with less time to prep. Especially especially when 1 of them is Maru. In which world Nice and Oliveira are better SC2 players than Cure, soO, Shin and Cure?? Besides that yeah, the depth of the tournament (aka number of matches one has to play to get the title) is an important factor. In this current world where Oliveria > all those Koreans listed This ain’t 2017. Current sOO and classic are a non factor in any tournaments. Oliveria pushed Serral to the limit while the rest of the Korean terrans has been stomped by Serral for years, correction almost all the Koreans has been stomped except for zvz here and there
I mean aligulac is not always the best indicator of form / level, but Oliveira is outside the top 10 currently (http://aligulac.com/periods/latest/), and him making top 4 at DH:Dallas was kind of a fluke rather than what was expected.
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On June 27 2024 23:23 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2024 04:49 Argonauta wrote:On June 27 2024 04:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 27 2024 04:14 radracer wrote:
Serral ESL Spring 2024 path:
Serral(W) Nice
Serral(W) herO
Serral(W) Oliviera
Serral(W) Maru
Maru GSL S1 2024 path:
Maru(W) soO
Maru(W) Shin
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(L) herO
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(W) Cure
Maru(W) herO
Pretty weak path maru had, only worthy opponent is herO on his path
Oliveria & Maru > all those Koreans (in current meta and map pool)
Ahh yes- having to go through more good players in a prep tournament. Clearly not as hard as going through 4 players. Makes total sense! Strong grasp on logic + perspective. Clearly no hyperbole or fanboyism going on here. Genuine discussion. Allow. So beating more players is more important than the quality of players beaten? And prep tournies are inherently harder? It depends which way you look at it. Neither has a clear answer and there are varying opinions on each. Sure, the top players may face better prepared lesser players, thus the difference in skill can be brought closer when they play. That is hard. But it is also harder for lesser players to beat top players in a weekender tournament and win it with less prep. Serral beating Oliveira, herO, and Maru is not an easy path for anyone, especially with less time to prep. Especially especially when 1 of them is Maru. In which world Nice and Oliveira are better SC2 players than Cure, soO, Shin and Cure?? Besides that yeah, the depth of the tournament (aka number of matches one has to play to get the title) is an important factor. In this current world where Oliveria > all those Koreans listed This ain’t 2017. Current sOO and classic are a non factor in any tournaments. Oliveria pushed Serral to the limit while the rest of the Korean terrans has been stomped by Serral for years, correction almost all the Koreans has been stomped except for zvz here and there
Yet, the last person who defeated Serral in a series was Maru.
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I'd take Aligulac ratings 100x more as an indicator of how strong a player is than whatever that player placed on the last tournament.
That being said soO is 2722 and Oliveira 3079, Classic is 3046, and Maru is on another tier at 3576.
soO --- Classic/Oliveira ----- Maru
Tournaments in SC2 are made for hype, not for competition sakes.
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Rogue just beat Clem, whom many consider the best TvZ player at the moment, 3:0.
Such is the state of TvZ balance.
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WCEG is a huge event, if anything it's the Esports World Cup, before Esports World Cup came along. Still I would place Blizzcon highest, followed by Katowice (I don't care if it has a title in its name) and then this. Let's see with Gamers8 and this one, it's hard to tell, but it seems the Esports World Cup will be the biggest event we've had.
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On June 27 2024 04:49 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2024 04:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 27 2024 04:14 radracer wrote:
Serral ESL Spring 2024 path:
Serral(W) Nice
Serral(W) herO
Serral(W) Oliviera
Serral(W) Maru
Maru GSL S1 2024 path:
Maru(W) soO
Maru(W) Shin
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(L) herO
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(W) Cure
Maru(W) herO
Pretty weak path maru had, only worthy opponent is herO on his path
Oliveria & Maru > all those Koreans (in current meta and map pool)
Ahh yes- having to go through more good players in a prep tournament. Clearly not as hard as going through 4 players. Makes total sense! Strong grasp on logic + perspective. Clearly no hyperbole or fanboyism going on here. Genuine discussion. Allow. So beating more players is more important than the quality of players beaten? And prep tournies are inherently harder? It depends which way you look at it. Neither has a clear answer and there are varying opinions on each. Sure, the top players may face better prepared lesser players, thus the difference in skill can be brought closer when they play. That is hard. But it is also harder for lesser players to beat top players in a weekender tournament and win it with less prep. Serral beating Oliveira, herO, and Maru is not an easy path for anyone, especially with less time to prep. Especially especially when 1 of them is Maru. In which world Nice and Oliveira are better SC2 players than Cure, soO, Shin and Cure?? Besides that yeah, the depth of the tournament (aka number of matches one has to play to get the title) is an important factor.
Maru had 7 matches in S1 because he lost 0-2 to herO not the tournament is good or hard, you know that factordon’t you?
Classic lost to Oliveira in Dalllas and current soO is just a tier 2 Zerg not even close to Oliveira. It’s no doubt Serral’s run in Dallas is much much more impressive than Maru GSL S1.
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France12762 Posts
On June 28 2024 01:18 goldensail wrote:
Rogue just beat Clem, whom many consider the best TvZ player at the moment, 3:0.
Such is the state of TvZ balance.
A single instance doesn't mean much though, afaik Clem was quite tired and it's a small online cup.
Rather, it tells more about Rogue being serious about coming back than TvZ balance imo
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On June 28 2024 02:56 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2024 04:49 Argonauta wrote:On June 27 2024 04:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 27 2024 04:14 radracer wrote:
Serral ESL Spring 2024 path:
Serral(W) Nice
Serral(W) herO
Serral(W) Oliviera
Serral(W) Maru
Maru GSL S1 2024 path:
Maru(W) soO
Maru(W) Shin
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(L) herO
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(W) Cure
Maru(W) herO
Pretty weak path maru had, only worthy opponent is herO on his path
Oliveria & Maru > all those Koreans (in current meta and map pool)
Ahh yes- having to go through more good players in a prep tournament. Clearly not as hard as going through 4 players. Makes total sense! Strong grasp on logic + perspective. Clearly no hyperbole or fanboyism going on here. Genuine discussion. Allow. So beating more players is more important than the quality of players beaten? And prep tournies are inherently harder? It depends which way you look at it. Neither has a clear answer and there are varying opinions on each. Sure, the top players may face better prepared lesser players, thus the difference in skill can be brought closer when they play. That is hard. But it is also harder for lesser players to beat top players in a weekender tournament and win it with less prep. Serral beating Oliveira, herO, and Maru is not an easy path for anyone, especially with less time to prep. Especially especially when 1 of them is Maru. In which world Nice and Oliveira are better SC2 players than Cure, soO, Shin and Cure?? Besides that yeah, the depth of the tournament (aka number of matches one has to play to get the title) is an important factor. Maru had 7 matches in S1 because he lost 0-2 to herO not the tournament is good or hard, you know that factordon’t you? Classic lost to Oliveira in Dalllas and current soO is just a tier 2 Zerg not even close to Oliveira. It’s no doubt Serral’s run in Dallas is much much more impressive than Maru GSL S1.
That is a weird twisted logic you employ. By your logic Oliveria is the 2nd best non-korean and Stats is better than Clem.
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On June 28 2024 03:04 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2024 02:56 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 27 2024 04:49 Argonauta wrote:On June 27 2024 04:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 27 2024 04:14 radracer wrote:
Serral ESL Spring 2024 path:
Serral(W) Nice
Serral(W) herO
Serral(W) Oliviera
Serral(W) Maru
Maru GSL S1 2024 path:
Maru(W) soO
Maru(W) Shin
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(L) herO
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(W) Cure
Maru(W) herO
Pretty weak path maru had, only worthy opponent is herO on his path
Oliveria & Maru > all those Koreans (in current meta and map pool)
Ahh yes- having to go through more good players in a prep tournament. Clearly not as hard as going through 4 players. Makes total sense! Strong grasp on logic + perspective. Clearly no hyperbole or fanboyism going on here. Genuine discussion. Allow. So beating more players is more important than the quality of players beaten? And prep tournies are inherently harder? It depends which way you look at it. Neither has a clear answer and there are varying opinions on each. Sure, the top players may face better prepared lesser players, thus the difference in skill can be brought closer when they play. That is hard. But it is also harder for lesser players to beat top players in a weekender tournament and win it with less prep. Serral beating Oliveira, herO, and Maru is not an easy path for anyone, especially with less time to prep. Especially especially when 1 of them is Maru. In which world Nice and Oliveira are better SC2 players than Cure, soO, Shin and Cure?? Besides that yeah, the depth of the tournament (aka number of matches one has to play to get the title) is an important factor. Maru had 7 matches in S1 because he lost 0-2 to herO not the tournament is good or hard, you know that factordon’t you? Classic lost to Oliveira in Dalllas and current soO is just a tier 2 Zerg not even close to Oliveira. It’s no doubt Serral’s run in Dallas is much much more impressive than Maru GSL S1. That is a weird twisted logic you employ. By your logic Oliveria is the 2nd best non-korean and Stats is better than Clem.
Your logic is twisted, I don’t know if Oliveira was the second best non Korean but I know he did performed much better in facing Serral than any other Terran players since IEM Katowice, he beaten Reynor 3-1 and he just beat Dark 2-1showing he is very strong in TvZ at that time. No players besides hero in GSL has given Maru so much great pressure as Oliveira given to Serral. But hero was also beaten by Serral in Dallas and Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely in a different level of other Koreans.
If you think Maru is nothing but on the same level of Shin Cure ByuN Solar , and beating Maru is not a greater task than beating these players, feel free to do so I don’t care.
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On June 28 2024 03:27 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2024 03:04 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 02:56 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 27 2024 04:49 Argonauta wrote:On June 27 2024 04:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 27 2024 04:14 radracer wrote:
Serral ESL Spring 2024 path:
Serral(W) Nice
Serral(W) herO
Serral(W) Oliviera
Serral(W) Maru
Maru GSL S1 2024 path:
Maru(W) soO
Maru(W) Shin
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(L) herO
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(W) Cure
Maru(W) herO
Pretty weak path maru had, only worthy opponent is herO on his path
Oliveria & Maru > all those Koreans (in current meta and map pool)
Ahh yes- having to go through more good players in a prep tournament. Clearly not as hard as going through 4 players. Makes total sense! Strong grasp on logic + perspective. Clearly no hyperbole or fanboyism going on here. Genuine discussion. Allow. So beating more players is more important than the quality of players beaten? And prep tournies are inherently harder? It depends which way you look at it. Neither has a clear answer and there are varying opinions on each. Sure, the top players may face better prepared lesser players, thus the difference in skill can be brought closer when they play. That is hard. But it is also harder for lesser players to beat top players in a weekender tournament and win it with less prep. Serral beating Oliveira, herO, and Maru is not an easy path for anyone, especially with less time to prep. Especially especially when 1 of them is Maru. In which world Nice and Oliveira are better SC2 players than Cure, soO, Shin and Cure?? Besides that yeah, the depth of the tournament (aka number of matches one has to play to get the title) is an important factor. Maru had 7 matches in S1 because he lost 0-2 to herO not the tournament is good or hard, you know that factordon’t you? Classic lost to Oliveira in Dalllas and current soO is just a tier 2 Zerg not even close to Oliveira. It’s no doubt Serral’s run in Dallas is much much more impressive than Maru GSL S1. That is a weird twisted logic you employ. By your logic Oliveria is the 2nd best non-korean and Stats is better than Clem. Your logic is twisted, I don’t know if Oliveira was the second best non Korean but I know he did performed much better in facing Serral than any other Terran players since IEM Katowice, he beaten Reynor 3-1 and he just beat Dark 2-1showing he is very strong in TvZ at that time. No players besides hero in GSL has given Maru so much great pressure as Oliveira given to Serral. But hero was also beaten by Serral in Dallas and Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely in a different level of other Koreans. If you think Maru is nothing but on the same level of Shin Cure ByuN Solar , and beating Maru is not a greater task than beating these players, feel free to do so I don’t care.
The game has more dimensions other than measuring how much "presure" a player gives to Serral to judge their overall skill in the game. Besides, Olivera said himself that most of it its due to the familiarity he has practicing vs Serral.
What I think is not that Maru is at the same level than Shin/Cure/Buyun/Solar. What I said is this:
1) The player field level experienced at Dallas by the winner is similar to the playerfield level experienced by the GSL winner.
2) Both of the winners of GSL and Dallas had a similar amount of games they had to win to achieve the title.
3) When one looks at the players that have reached the playoffs of Dallas, 6 out of 8 are players which participated in the current edition of GSL.
Do you agree then that winning Dallas is more or less the same as winning this year's edition of GSL?
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So funny. Korean elist had nothing but number of matches to say, this is even a worse factor to bloat your GSL.
If Serral lost to herO and Reynor, he was placed in knock out bracket and beat other players until Final, he would have 8 matches, Ohh 8 matches but lost 2 series is much better than 5 matches straight to the champion. This is Korean elist’s logic.
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On June 28 2024 03:44 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2024 03:27 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:04 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 02:56 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 27 2024 04:49 Argonauta wrote:On June 27 2024 04:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 27 2024 04:14 radracer wrote:
Serral ESL Spring 2024 path:
Serral(W) Nice
Serral(W) herO
Serral(W) Oliviera
Serral(W) Maru
Maru GSL S1 2024 path:
Maru(W) soO
Maru(W) Shin
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(L) herO
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(W) Cure
Maru(W) herO
Pretty weak path maru had, only worthy opponent is herO on his path
Oliveria & Maru > all those Koreans (in current meta and map pool)
Ahh yes- having to go through more good players in a prep tournament. Clearly not as hard as going through 4 players. Makes total sense! Strong grasp on logic + perspective. Clearly no hyperbole or fanboyism going on here. Genuine discussion. Allow. So beating more players is more important than the quality of players beaten? And prep tournies are inherently harder? It depends which way you look at it. Neither has a clear answer and there are varying opinions on each. Sure, the top players may face better prepared lesser players, thus the difference in skill can be brought closer when they play. That is hard. But it is also harder for lesser players to beat top players in a weekender tournament and win it with less prep. Serral beating Oliveira, herO, and Maru is not an easy path for anyone, especially with less time to prep. Especially especially when 1 of them is Maru. In which world Nice and Oliveira are better SC2 players than Cure, soO, Shin and Cure?? Besides that yeah, the depth of the tournament (aka number of matches one has to play to get the title) is an important factor. Maru had 7 matches in S1 because he lost 0-2 to herO not the tournament is good or hard, you know that factordon’t you? Classic lost to Oliveira in Dalllas and current soO is just a tier 2 Zerg not even close to Oliveira. It’s no doubt Serral’s run in Dallas is much much more impressive than Maru GSL S1. That is a weird twisted logic you employ. By your logic Oliveria is the 2nd best non-korean and Stats is better than Clem. Your logic is twisted, I don’t know if Oliveira was the second best non Korean but I know he did performed much better in facing Serral than any other Terran players since IEM Katowice, he beaten Reynor 3-1 and he just beat Dark 2-1showing he is very strong in TvZ at that time. No players besides hero in GSL has given Maru so much great pressure as Oliveira given to Serral. But hero was also beaten by Serral in Dallas and Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely in a different level of other Koreans. If you think Maru is nothing but on the same level of Shin Cure ByuN Solar , and beating Maru is not a greater task than beating these players, feel free to do so I don’t care. The game has more dimensions other than measuring how much "presure" a player gives to Serral to judge their overall skill in the game. Besides, Olivera said himself that most of it its due to the familiarity he has practicing vs Serral. What I think is not that Maru is at the same level than Shin/Cure/Buyun/Solar. What I said is this: 1) The player field level experienced at Dallas by the winner is similar to the playerfield level experienced by the GSL winner. 2) Both of the winners of GSL and Dallas had a similar amount of games they had to win to achieve the title. 3) When one looks at the players that have reached the playoffs of Dallas, 6 out of 8 are players which participated in the current edition of GSL. Do you agree then that winning Dallas is more or less the same as winning this year's edition of GSL?
1. What on Earth tells you current GSL is comparable to ESL Dallas?
Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely on a different level than other Koreans. Maru can’t beat himself, the strongest opponent is hero, who also lost to Serral so Maru’s GSL already lost.
2. Oliveira’s TvZ is the best or at least one of the best in the world at this second. I said he not only gave Serral much more pressure than Maru, but also beat Reynor and Dark recently. So beating Oliveira is also a great achievement than beating Cure ByuN soO etc, who had never won a single series against Serral and Dark in a really long time.
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On June 28 2024 03:47 njleslu2024 wrote:
So funny. Korean elist had nothing but number of matches to say, this is even a worse factor to bloat your GSL.
If Serral lost to herO and Reynor, he was placed in knock out bracket and beat other players until Final, he would have 8 matches, Ohh 8 matches but lost 2 series is much better than 5 matches straight to the champion. This is Korean elist’s logic.
I don't get why are you not straightforward and instead you chose to speak about me in third person? Anyways I was just referring to a comment saying that GSL was a B tier tournament.
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On June 28 2024 03:55 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2024 03:47 njleslu2024 wrote:
So funny. Korean elist had nothing but number of matches to say, this is even a worse factor to bloat your GSL.
If Serral lost to herO and Reynor, he was placed in knock out bracket and beat other players until Final, he would have 8 matches, Ohh 8 matches but lost 2 series is much better than 5 matches straight to the champion. This is Korean elist’s logic.
I don't get why are you not straightforward and instead you chose to speak about me in third person? Anyways I was just referring to a comment saying that GSL was a B tier tournament.
ESWC > IEM Katowice > ESL masters > GSL > other, winning current GSL is not the same as winning Dallas, not even close.
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On June 28 2024 03:52 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2024 03:44 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:27 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:04 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 02:56 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 27 2024 04:49 Argonauta wrote:On June 27 2024 04:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 27 2024 04:14 radracer wrote:
Serral ESL Spring 2024 path:
Serral(W) Nice
Serral(W) herO
Serral(W) Oliviera
Serral(W) Maru
Maru GSL S1 2024 path:
Maru(W) soO
Maru(W) Shin
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(L) herO
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(W) Cure
Maru(W) herO
Pretty weak path maru had, only worthy opponent is herO on his path
Oliveria & Maru > all those Koreans (in current meta and map pool)
Ahh yes- having to go through more good players in a prep tournament. Clearly not as hard as going through 4 players. Makes total sense! Strong grasp on logic + perspective. Clearly no hyperbole or fanboyism going on here. Genuine discussion. Allow. So beating more players is more important than the quality of players beaten? And prep tournies are inherently harder? It depends which way you look at it. Neither has a clear answer and there are varying opinions on each. Sure, the top players may face better prepared lesser players, thus the difference in skill can be brought closer when they play. That is hard. But it is also harder for lesser players to beat top players in a weekender tournament and win it with less prep. Serral beating Oliveira, herO, and Maru is not an easy path for anyone, especially with less time to prep. Especially especially when 1 of them is Maru. In which world Nice and Oliveira are better SC2 players than Cure, soO, Shin and Cure?? Besides that yeah, the depth of the tournament (aka number of matches one has to play to get the title) is an important factor. Maru had 7 matches in S1 because he lost 0-2 to herO not the tournament is good or hard, you know that factordon’t you? Classic lost to Oliveira in Dalllas and current soO is just a tier 2 Zerg not even close to Oliveira. It’s no doubt Serral’s run in Dallas is much much more impressive than Maru GSL S1. That is a weird twisted logic you employ. By your logic Oliveria is the 2nd best non-korean and Stats is better than Clem. Your logic is twisted, I don’t know if Oliveira was the second best non Korean but I know he did performed much better in facing Serral than any other Terran players since IEM Katowice, he beaten Reynor 3-1 and he just beat Dark 2-1showing he is very strong in TvZ at that time. No players besides hero in GSL has given Maru so much great pressure as Oliveira given to Serral. But hero was also beaten by Serral in Dallas and Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely in a different level of other Koreans. If you think Maru is nothing but on the same level of Shin Cure ByuN Solar , and beating Maru is not a greater task than beating these players, feel free to do so I don’t care. The game has more dimensions other than measuring how much "presure" a player gives to Serral to judge their overall skill in the game. Besides, Olivera said himself that most of it its due to the familiarity he has practicing vs Serral. What I think is not that Maru is at the same level than Shin/Cure/Buyun/Solar. What I said is this: 1) The player field level experienced at Dallas by the winner is similar to the playerfield level experienced by the GSL winner. 2) Both of the winners of GSL and Dallas had a similar amount of games they had to win to achieve the title. 3) When one looks at the players that have reached the playoffs of Dallas, 6 out of 8 are players which participated in the current edition of GSL. Do you agree then that winning Dallas is more or less the same as winning this year's edition of GSL? 1. What on Earth tells you current GSL is comparable to ESL Dallas? Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely on a different level than other Koreans. Maru can’t beat himself, the strongest opponent is hero, who also lost to Serral so Maru’s GSL already lost. 2. Oliveira’s TvZ is the best or at least one of the best in the world at this second. I said he not only gave Serral much more pressure than Maru, but also beat Reynor and Dark recently. So beating Oliveira is also a great achievement than beating Cure ByuN soO etc, who had never won a single series against Serral and Dark in a really long time.
Source? According to Aligulac Clem, Maru, ByuN and Heromarine all have a higher TvZ rating. And Oli literally has never won a series against Serral and even Shin has a dominant record against him-
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On June 28 2024 03:52 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2024 03:44 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:27 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:04 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 02:56 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 27 2024 04:49 Argonauta wrote:On June 27 2024 04:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 27 2024 04:14 radracer wrote:
Serral ESL Spring 2024 path:
Serral(W) Nice
Serral(W) herO
Serral(W) Oliviera
Serral(W) Maru
Maru GSL S1 2024 path:
Maru(W) soO
Maru(W) Shin
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(L) herO
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(W) Cure
Maru(W) herO
Pretty weak path maru had, only worthy opponent is herO on his path
Oliveria & Maru > all those Koreans (in current meta and map pool)
Ahh yes- having to go through more good players in a prep tournament. Clearly not as hard as going through 4 players. Makes total sense! Strong grasp on logic + perspective. Clearly no hyperbole or fanboyism going on here. Genuine discussion. Allow. So beating more players is more important than the quality of players beaten? And prep tournies are inherently harder? It depends which way you look at it. Neither has a clear answer and there are varying opinions on each. Sure, the top players may face better prepared lesser players, thus the difference in skill can be brought closer when they play. That is hard. But it is also harder for lesser players to beat top players in a weekender tournament and win it with less prep. Serral beating Oliveira, herO, and Maru is not an easy path for anyone, especially with less time to prep. Especially especially when 1 of them is Maru. In which world Nice and Oliveira are better SC2 players than Cure, soO, Shin and Cure?? Besides that yeah, the depth of the tournament (aka number of matches one has to play to get the title) is an important factor. Maru had 7 matches in S1 because he lost 0-2 to herO not the tournament is good or hard, you know that factordon’t you? Classic lost to Oliveira in Dalllas and current soO is just a tier 2 Zerg not even close to Oliveira. It’s no doubt Serral’s run in Dallas is much much more impressive than Maru GSL S1. That is a weird twisted logic you employ. By your logic Oliveria is the 2nd best non-korean and Stats is better than Clem. Your logic is twisted, I don’t know if Oliveira was the second best non Korean but I know he did performed much better in facing Serral than any other Terran players since IEM Katowice, he beaten Reynor 3-1 and he just beat Dark 2-1showing he is very strong in TvZ at that time. No players besides hero in GSL has given Maru so much great pressure as Oliveira given to Serral. But hero was also beaten by Serral in Dallas and Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely in a different level of other Koreans. If you think Maru is nothing but on the same level of Shin Cure ByuN Solar , and beating Maru is not a greater task than beating these players, feel free to do so I don’t care. The game has more dimensions other than measuring how much "presure" a player gives to Serral to judge their overall skill in the game. Besides, Olivera said himself that most of it its due to the familiarity he has practicing vs Serral. What I think is not that Maru is at the same level than Shin/Cure/Buyun/Solar. What I said is this: 1) The player field level experienced at Dallas by the winner is similar to the playerfield level experienced by the GSL winner. 2) Both of the winners of GSL and Dallas had a similar amount of games they had to win to achieve the title. 3) When one looks at the players that have reached the playoffs of Dallas, 6 out of 8 are players which participated in the current edition of GSL. Do you agree then that winning Dallas is more or less the same as winning this year's edition of GSL? 1. What on Earth tells you current GSL is comparable to ESL Dallas? Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely on a different level than other Koreans. Maru can’t beat himself, the strongest opponent is hero, who also lost to Serral so Maru’s GSL already lost. 2. Oliveira’s TvZ is the best or at least one of the best in the world at this second. I said he not only gave Serral much more pressure than Maru, but also beat Reynor and Dark recently. So beating Oliveira is also a great achievement than beating Cure ByuN soO etc, who had never won a single series against Serral and Dark in a really long time.
1. I see, so you treat SC2 are a rock paper scissor game between players to rank them. Ok, very reasonable.
2. You speak as if Oliveria won vs Serral, he didnt, he lost. And Oliveira regularly trades series between the players you mention.
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On June 28 2024 03:59 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2024 03:52 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:44 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:27 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:04 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 02:56 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 27 2024 04:49 Argonauta wrote:On June 27 2024 04:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 27 2024 04:14 radracer wrote:
Serral ESL Spring 2024 path:
Serral(W) Nice
Serral(W) herO
Serral(W) Oliviera
Serral(W) Maru
Maru GSL S1 2024 path:
Maru(W) soO
Maru(W) Shin
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(L) herO
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(W) Cure
Maru(W) herO
Pretty weak path maru had, only worthy opponent is herO on his path
Oliveria & Maru > all those Koreans (in current meta and map pool)
Ahh yes- having to go through more good players in a prep tournament. Clearly not as hard as going through 4 players. Makes total sense! Strong grasp on logic + perspective. Clearly no hyperbole or fanboyism going on here. Genuine discussion. Allow. So beating more players is more important than the quality of players beaten? And prep tournies are inherently harder? It depends which way you look at it. Neither has a clear answer and there are varying opinions on each. Sure, the top players may face better prepared lesser players, thus the difference in skill can be brought closer when they play. That is hard. But it is also harder for lesser players to beat top players in a weekender tournament and win it with less prep. Serral beating Oliveira, herO, and Maru is not an easy path for anyone, especially with less time to prep. Especially especially when 1 of them is Maru. In which world Nice and Oliveira are better SC2 players than Cure, soO, Shin and Cure?? Besides that yeah, the depth of the tournament (aka number of matches one has to play to get the title) is an important factor. Maru had 7 matches in S1 because he lost 0-2 to herO not the tournament is good or hard, you know that factordon’t you? Classic lost to Oliveira in Dalllas and current soO is just a tier 2 Zerg not even close to Oliveira. It’s no doubt Serral’s run in Dallas is much much more impressive than Maru GSL S1. That is a weird twisted logic you employ. By your logic Oliveria is the 2nd best non-korean and Stats is better than Clem. Your logic is twisted, I don’t know if Oliveira was the second best non Korean but I know he did performed much better in facing Serral than any other Terran players since IEM Katowice, he beaten Reynor 3-1 and he just beat Dark 2-1showing he is very strong in TvZ at that time. No players besides hero in GSL has given Maru so much great pressure as Oliveira given to Serral. But hero was also beaten by Serral in Dallas and Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely in a different level of other Koreans. If you think Maru is nothing but on the same level of Shin Cure ByuN Solar , and beating Maru is not a greater task than beating these players, feel free to do so I don’t care. The game has more dimensions other than measuring how much "presure" a player gives to Serral to judge their overall skill in the game. Besides, Olivera said himself that most of it its due to the familiarity he has practicing vs Serral. What I think is not that Maru is at the same level than Shin/Cure/Buyun/Solar. What I said is this: 1) The player field level experienced at Dallas by the winner is similar to the playerfield level experienced by the GSL winner. 2) Both of the winners of GSL and Dallas had a similar amount of games they had to win to achieve the title. 3) When one looks at the players that have reached the playoffs of Dallas, 6 out of 8 are players which participated in the current edition of GSL. Do you agree then that winning Dallas is more or less the same as winning this year's edition of GSL? 1. What on Earth tells you current GSL is comparable to ESL Dallas? Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely on a different level than other Koreans. Maru can’t beat himself, the strongest opponent is hero, who also lost to Serral so Maru’s GSL already lost. 2. Oliveira’s TvZ is the best or at least one of the best in the world at this second. I said he not only gave Serral much more pressure than Maru, but also beat Reynor and Dark recently. So beating Oliveira is also a great achievement than beating Cure ByuN soO etc, who had never won a single series against Serral and Dark in a really long time. Source? According to Aligulac Clem, Maru, ByuN and Heromarine all have a higher TvZ rating. And Oli literally has never won a series against Serral and even Shin has a dominant record against him-
Oliveira is a different player, please note that. If he can find his comfortable zone in a tournament he can be nearly unbeatable, like he did in IEM 2023 and ESL Dallas. But he is not stable enough, so he seldom had his comfortable zone.
In ESL Dallas he beat Reynor Classic and Stats, and pushed Serral to his limit, performing much better than any other terran, which means he was in a very good shape at that time.
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On June 28 2024 03:57 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2024 03:55 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:47 njleslu2024 wrote:
So funny. Korean elist had nothing but number of matches to say, this is even a worse factor to bloat your GSL.
If Serral lost to herO and Reynor, he was placed in knock out bracket and beat other players until Final, he would have 8 matches, Ohh 8 matches but lost 2 series is much better than 5 matches straight to the champion. This is Korean elist’s logic.
I don't get why are you not straightforward and instead you chose to speak about me in third person? Anyways I was just referring to a comment saying that GSL was a B tier tournament. ESWC > IEM Katowice > ESL masters > GSL > other, winning current GSL is not the same as winning Dallas, not even close.
Very nice string of characters you assembled there, shame you cannot back those statements with facts (other than the single series you saw of Oliveria vs Serral against which everything else in SC2 you compare to).
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On June 28 2024 04:00 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2024 03:52 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:44 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:27 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:04 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 02:56 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 27 2024 04:49 Argonauta wrote:On June 27 2024 04:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 27 2024 04:14 radracer wrote:
Serral ESL Spring 2024 path:
Serral(W) Nice
Serral(W) herO
Serral(W) Oliviera
Serral(W) Maru
Maru GSL S1 2024 path:
Maru(W) soO
Maru(W) Shin
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(L) herO
Maru(W) Classic
Maru(W) Cure
Maru(W) herO
Pretty weak path maru had, only worthy opponent is herO on his path
Oliveria & Maru > all those Koreans (in current meta and map pool)
Ahh yes- having to go through more good players in a prep tournament. Clearly not as hard as going through 4 players. Makes total sense! Strong grasp on logic + perspective. Clearly no hyperbole or fanboyism going on here. Genuine discussion. Allow. So beating more players is more important than the quality of players beaten? And prep tournies are inherently harder? It depends which way you look at it. Neither has a clear answer and there are varying opinions on each. Sure, the top players may face better prepared lesser players, thus the difference in skill can be brought closer when they play. That is hard. But it is also harder for lesser players to beat top players in a weekender tournament and win it with less prep. Serral beating Oliveira, herO, and Maru is not an easy path for anyone, especially with less time to prep. Especially especially when 1 of them is Maru. In which world Nice and Oliveira are better SC2 players than Cure, soO, Shin and Cure?? Besides that yeah, the depth of the tournament (aka number of matches one has to play to get the title) is an important factor. Maru had 7 matches in S1 because he lost 0-2 to herO not the tournament is good or hard, you know that factordon’t you? Classic lost to Oliveira in Dalllas and current soO is just a tier 2 Zerg not even close to Oliveira. It’s no doubt Serral’s run in Dallas is much much more impressive than Maru GSL S1. That is a weird twisted logic you employ. By your logic Oliveria is the 2nd best non-korean and Stats is better than Clem. Your logic is twisted, I don’t know if Oliveira was the second best non Korean but I know he did performed much better in facing Serral than any other Terran players since IEM Katowice, he beaten Reynor 3-1 and he just beat Dark 2-1showing he is very strong in TvZ at that time. No players besides hero in GSL has given Maru so much great pressure as Oliveira given to Serral. But hero was also beaten by Serral in Dallas and Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely in a different level of other Koreans. If you think Maru is nothing but on the same level of Shin Cure ByuN Solar , and beating Maru is not a greater task than beating these players, feel free to do so I don’t care. The game has more dimensions other than measuring how much "presure" a player gives to Serral to judge their overall skill in the game. Besides, Olivera said himself that most of it its due to the familiarity he has practicing vs Serral. What I think is not that Maru is at the same level than Shin/Cure/Buyun/Solar. What I said is this: 1) The player field level experienced at Dallas by the winner is similar to the playerfield level experienced by the GSL winner. 2) Both of the winners of GSL and Dallas had a similar amount of games they had to win to achieve the title. 3) When one looks at the players that have reached the playoffs of Dallas, 6 out of 8 are players which participated in the current edition of GSL. Do you agree then that winning Dallas is more or less the same as winning this year's edition of GSL? 1. What on Earth tells you current GSL is comparable to ESL Dallas? Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely on a different level than other Koreans. Maru can’t beat himself, the strongest opponent is hero, who also lost to Serral so Maru’s GSL already lost. 2. Oliveira’s TvZ is the best or at least one of the best in the world at this second. I said he not only gave Serral much more pressure than Maru, but also beat Reynor and Dark recently. So beating Oliveira is also a great achievement than beating Cure ByuN soO etc, who had never won a single series against Serral and Dark in a really long time. 1. I see, so you treat SC2 are a rock paper scissor game between players to rank them. Ok, very reasonable. 2. You speak as if Oliveria won vs Serral, he didnt, he lost. And Oliveira regularly trades series between the players you mention.
Bro It's you want to compare GSL with ESL spring, not me. I just told you Maru's GSL run is less difficult than Serral's ESL run. Oliveira didn't win, Maru didn't either, any other player didn't either. But he is def the best against Serral in a series since IEM katowice.
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EPT
