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On June 28 2024 04:04 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2024 03:57 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:55 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:47 njleslu2024 wrote:
So funny. Korean elist had nothing but number of matches to say, this is even a worse factor to bloat your GSL.
If Serral lost to herO and Reynor, he was placed in knock out bracket and beat other players until Final, he would have 8 matches, Ohh 8 matches but lost 2 series is much better than 5 matches straight to the champion. This is Korean elist’s logic.
I don't get why are you not straightforward and instead you chose to speak about me in third person? Anyways I was just referring to a comment saying that GSL was a B tier tournament. ESWC > IEM Katowice > ESL masters > GSL > other, winning current GSL is not the same as winning Dallas, not even close. Very nice string of characters you assembled there, shame you cannot back those statements with facts (other than the single series you saw of Oliveria vs Serral against which everything else in SC2 you compare to).
At least no one would agree with you Maru's GSL S1 champion can be compared to Serral's ESL spring. :-)
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On June 28 2024 04:07 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2024 04:00 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:52 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:44 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:27 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:04 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 02:56 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 27 2024 04:49 Argonauta wrote:On June 27 2024 04:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 27 2024 04:14 radracer wrote:
[quote]
Ahh yes- having to go through more good players in a prep tournament. Clearly not as hard as going through 4 players. Makes total sense! Strong grasp on logic + perspective. Clearly no hyperbole or fanboyism going on here. Genuine discussion. Allow. So beating more players is more important than the quality of players beaten? And prep tournies are inherently harder? It depends which way you look at it. Neither has a clear answer and there are varying opinions on each. Sure, the top players may face better prepared lesser players, thus the difference in skill can be brought closer when they play. That is hard. But it is also harder for lesser players to beat top players in a weekender tournament and win it with less prep. Serral beating Oliveira, herO, and Maru is not an easy path for anyone, especially with less time to prep. Especially especially when 1 of them is Maru. In which world Nice and Oliveira are better SC2 players than Cure, soO, Shin and Cure?? Besides that yeah, the depth of the tournament (aka number of matches one has to play to get the title) is an important factor. Maru had 7 matches in S1 because he lost 0-2 to herO not the tournament is good or hard, you know that factordon’t you? Classic lost to Oliveira in Dalllas and current soO is just a tier 2 Zerg not even close to Oliveira. It’s no doubt Serral’s run in Dallas is much much more impressive than Maru GSL S1. That is a weird twisted logic you employ. By your logic Oliveria is the 2nd best non-korean and Stats is better than Clem. Your logic is twisted, I don’t know if Oliveira was the second best non Korean but I know he did performed much better in facing Serral than any other Terran players since IEM Katowice, he beaten Reynor 3-1 and he just beat Dark 2-1showing he is very strong in TvZ at that time. No players besides hero in GSL has given Maru so much great pressure as Oliveira given to Serral. But hero was also beaten by Serral in Dallas and Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely in a different level of other Koreans. If you think Maru is nothing but on the same level of Shin Cure ByuN Solar , and beating Maru is not a greater task than beating these players, feel free to do so I don’t care. The game has more dimensions other than measuring how much "presure" a player gives to Serral to judge their overall skill in the game. Besides, Olivera said himself that most of it its due to the familiarity he has practicing vs Serral. What I think is not that Maru is at the same level than Shin/Cure/Buyun/Solar. What I said is this: 1) The player field level experienced at Dallas by the winner is similar to the playerfield level experienced by the GSL winner. 2) Both of the winners of GSL and Dallas had a similar amount of games they had to win to achieve the title. 3) When one looks at the players that have reached the playoffs of Dallas, 6 out of 8 are players which participated in the current edition of GSL. Do you agree then that winning Dallas is more or less the same as winning this year's edition of GSL? 1. What on Earth tells you current GSL is comparable to ESL Dallas? Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely on a different level than other Koreans. Maru can’t beat himself, the strongest opponent is hero, who also lost to Serral so Maru’s GSL already lost. 2. Oliveira’s TvZ is the best or at least one of the best in the world at this second. I said he not only gave Serral much more pressure than Maru, but also beat Reynor and Dark recently. So beating Oliveira is also a great achievement than beating Cure ByuN soO etc, who had never won a single series against Serral and Dark in a really long time. 1. I see, so you treat SC2 are a rock paper scissor game between players to rank them. Ok, very reasonable. 2. You speak as if Oliveria won vs Serral, he didnt, he lost. And Oliveira regularly trades series between the players you mention. Bro It's you want to compare GSL with ESL spring, not me. I just told you Maru's GSL run is less difficult than Serral's ESL run.
Well if you don't want to engage to the debate, then don't. But if you do and you tell me that Maru's GSL run was easier than Serral Dallas run, I just hard disagree. They are comparable.
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On June 28 2024 04:13 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2024 04:07 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 04:00 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:52 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:44 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:27 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:04 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 02:56 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 27 2024 04:49 Argonauta wrote:On June 27 2024 04:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
[quote]
So beating more players is more important than the quality of players beaten?
And prep tournies are inherently harder? It depends which way you look at it.
Neither has a clear answer and there are varying opinions on each.
Sure, the top players may face better prepared lesser players, thus the difference in skill can be brought closer when they play. That is hard. But it is also harder for lesser players to beat top players in a weekender tournament and win it with less prep. Serral beating Oliveira, herO, and Maru is not an easy path for anyone, especially with less time to prep. Especially especially when 1 of them is Maru.
In which world Nice and Oliveira are better SC2 players than Cure, soO, Shin and Cure?? Besides that yeah, the depth of the tournament (aka number of matches one has to play to get the title) is an important factor. Maru had 7 matches in S1 because he lost 0-2 to herO not the tournament is good or hard, you know that factordon’t you? Classic lost to Oliveira in Dalllas and current soO is just a tier 2 Zerg not even close to Oliveira. It’s no doubt Serral’s run in Dallas is much much more impressive than Maru GSL S1. That is a weird twisted logic you employ. By your logic Oliveria is the 2nd best non-korean and Stats is better than Clem. Your logic is twisted, I don’t know if Oliveira was the second best non Korean but I know he did performed much better in facing Serral than any other Terran players since IEM Katowice, he beaten Reynor 3-1 and he just beat Dark 2-1showing he is very strong in TvZ at that time. No players besides hero in GSL has given Maru so much great pressure as Oliveira given to Serral. But hero was also beaten by Serral in Dallas and Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely in a different level of other Koreans. If you think Maru is nothing but on the same level of Shin Cure ByuN Solar , and beating Maru is not a greater task than beating these players, feel free to do so I don’t care. The game has more dimensions other than measuring how much "presure" a player gives to Serral to judge their overall skill in the game. Besides, Olivera said himself that most of it its due to the familiarity he has practicing vs Serral. What I think is not that Maru is at the same level than Shin/Cure/Buyun/Solar. What I said is this: 1) The player field level experienced at Dallas by the winner is similar to the playerfield level experienced by the GSL winner. 2) Both of the winners of GSL and Dallas had a similar amount of games they had to win to achieve the title. 3) When one looks at the players that have reached the playoffs of Dallas, 6 out of 8 are players which participated in the current edition of GSL. Do you agree then that winning Dallas is more or less the same as winning this year's edition of GSL? 1. What on Earth tells you current GSL is comparable to ESL Dallas? Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely on a different level than other Koreans. Maru can’t beat himself, the strongest opponent is hero, who also lost to Serral so Maru’s GSL already lost. 2. Oliveira’s TvZ is the best or at least one of the best in the world at this second. I said he not only gave Serral much more pressure than Maru, but also beat Reynor and Dark recently. So beating Oliveira is also a great achievement than beating Cure ByuN soO etc, who had never won a single series against Serral and Dark in a really long time. 1. I see, so you treat SC2 are a rock paper scissor game between players to rank them. Ok, very reasonable. 2. You speak as if Oliveria won vs Serral, he didnt, he lost. And Oliveira regularly trades series between the players you mention. Bro It's you want to compare GSL with ESL spring, not me. I just told you Maru's GSL run is less difficult than Serral's ESL run. Well if you don't want to engage to the debate, then don't. But if you do and you tell me that Maru's GSL run was easier than Serral Dallas run, I just hard disagree. They are comparable.
Cope harder.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 28 2024 04:13 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2024 04:07 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 04:00 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:52 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:44 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:27 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:04 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 02:56 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 27 2024 04:49 Argonauta wrote:On June 27 2024 04:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
[quote]
So beating more players is more important than the quality of players beaten?
And prep tournies are inherently harder? It depends which way you look at it.
Neither has a clear answer and there are varying opinions on each.
Sure, the top players may face better prepared lesser players, thus the difference in skill can be brought closer when they play. That is hard. But it is also harder for lesser players to beat top players in a weekender tournament and win it with less prep. Serral beating Oliveira, herO, and Maru is not an easy path for anyone, especially with less time to prep. Especially especially when 1 of them is Maru.
In which world Nice and Oliveira are better SC2 players than Cure, soO, Shin and Cure?? Besides that yeah, the depth of the tournament (aka number of matches one has to play to get the title) is an important factor. Maru had 7 matches in S1 because he lost 0-2 to herO not the tournament is good or hard, you know that factordon’t you? Classic lost to Oliveira in Dalllas and current soO is just a tier 2 Zerg not even close to Oliveira. It’s no doubt Serral’s run in Dallas is much much more impressive than Maru GSL S1. That is a weird twisted logic you employ. By your logic Oliveria is the 2nd best non-korean and Stats is better than Clem. Your logic is twisted, I don’t know if Oliveira was the second best non Korean but I know he did performed much better in facing Serral than any other Terran players since IEM Katowice, he beaten Reynor 3-1 and he just beat Dark 2-1showing he is very strong in TvZ at that time. No players besides hero in GSL has given Maru so much great pressure as Oliveira given to Serral. But hero was also beaten by Serral in Dallas and Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely in a different level of other Koreans. If you think Maru is nothing but on the same level of Shin Cure ByuN Solar , and beating Maru is not a greater task than beating these players, feel free to do so I don’t care. The game has more dimensions other than measuring how much "presure" a player gives to Serral to judge their overall skill in the game. Besides, Olivera said himself that most of it its due to the familiarity he has practicing vs Serral. What I think is not that Maru is at the same level than Shin/Cure/Buyun/Solar. What I said is this: 1) The player field level experienced at Dallas by the winner is similar to the playerfield level experienced by the GSL winner. 2) Both of the winners of GSL and Dallas had a similar amount of games they had to win to achieve the title. 3) When one looks at the players that have reached the playoffs of Dallas, 6 out of 8 are players which participated in the current edition of GSL. Do you agree then that winning Dallas is more or less the same as winning this year's edition of GSL? 1. What on Earth tells you current GSL is comparable to ESL Dallas? Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely on a different level than other Koreans. Maru can’t beat himself, the strongest opponent is hero, who also lost to Serral so Maru’s GSL already lost. 2. Oliveira’s TvZ is the best or at least one of the best in the world at this second. I said he not only gave Serral much more pressure than Maru, but also beat Reynor and Dark recently. So beating Oliveira is also a great achievement than beating Cure ByuN soO etc, who had never won a single series against Serral and Dark in a really long time. 1. I see, so you treat SC2 are a rock paper scissor game between players to rank them. Ok, very reasonable. 2. You speak as if Oliveria won vs Serral, he didnt, he lost. And Oliveira regularly trades series between the players you mention. Bro It's you want to compare GSL with ESL spring, not me. I just told you Maru's GSL run is less difficult than Serral's ESL run. Well if you don't want to engage to the debate, then don't. But if you do and you tell me that Maru's GSL run was easier than Serral Dallas run, I just hard disagree. They are comparable.
1. From opponent aspect: Serral's opponents: Maru, Oliveira, Shin, herO, Nice; Maru opponent: herO, Cure, Classic, soO, Shin. They both had Shin and herO, Nice is the weakest so ignore him. Oliveira performed really well in TvZ recently, much better than Classic performed in TvP, soO is already a tier 2 zerg and had nearly 0 chance of getting into ESWC.
The rest is Maru and Cure, do you believe Cure is on the same level as Maru, don't make me laugh.
2. From tournament aspect, GSL top 6 are qualified to ESL spring, but top 4 in Dallas are directly qualified to ESWC, you see the difference? In ESL system Dallas is ranked higher than GSL.
3. From player sink aspect, GSL is a korean based tournament and ESL spring is a global, international tournament. In GSL you can't see Serral, Reynor (not in GSL during S1), Clem, HM, Oliveira and other competitive players all over the world, but in ESL you can.
Okay, already explained reasons to you. Feel free to cope any harder.
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On June 28 2024 04:25 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2024 04:13 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 04:07 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 04:00 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:52 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:44 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:27 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:04 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 02:56 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 27 2024 04:49 Argonauta wrote:
[quote]
In which world Nice and Oliveira are better SC2 players than Cure, soO, Shin and Cure??
Besides that yeah, the depth of the tournament (aka number of matches one has to play to get the title) is an important factor.
Maru had 7 matches in S1 because he lost 0-2 to herO not the tournament is good or hard, you know that factordon’t you? Classic lost to Oliveira in Dalllas and current soO is just a tier 2 Zerg not even close to Oliveira. It’s no doubt Serral’s run in Dallas is much much more impressive than Maru GSL S1. That is a weird twisted logic you employ. By your logic Oliveria is the 2nd best non-korean and Stats is better than Clem. Your logic is twisted, I don’t know if Oliveira was the second best non Korean but I know he did performed much better in facing Serral than any other Terran players since IEM Katowice, he beaten Reynor 3-1 and he just beat Dark 2-1showing he is very strong in TvZ at that time. No players besides hero in GSL has given Maru so much great pressure as Oliveira given to Serral. But hero was also beaten by Serral in Dallas and Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely in a different level of other Koreans. If you think Maru is nothing but on the same level of Shin Cure ByuN Solar , and beating Maru is not a greater task than beating these players, feel free to do so I don’t care. The game has more dimensions other than measuring how much "presure" a player gives to Serral to judge their overall skill in the game. Besides, Olivera said himself that most of it its due to the familiarity he has practicing vs Serral. What I think is not that Maru is at the same level than Shin/Cure/Buyun/Solar. What I said is this: 1) The player field level experienced at Dallas by the winner is similar to the playerfield level experienced by the GSL winner. 2) Both of the winners of GSL and Dallas had a similar amount of games they had to win to achieve the title. 3) When one looks at the players that have reached the playoffs of Dallas, 6 out of 8 are players which participated in the current edition of GSL. Do you agree then that winning Dallas is more or less the same as winning this year's edition of GSL? 1. What on Earth tells you current GSL is comparable to ESL Dallas? Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely on a different level than other Koreans. Maru can’t beat himself, the strongest opponent is hero, who also lost to Serral so Maru’s GSL already lost. 2. Oliveira’s TvZ is the best or at least one of the best in the world at this second. I said he not only gave Serral much more pressure than Maru, but also beat Reynor and Dark recently. So beating Oliveira is also a great achievement than beating Cure ByuN soO etc, who had never won a single series against Serral and Dark in a really long time. 1. I see, so you treat SC2 are a rock paper scissor game between players to rank them. Ok, very reasonable. 2. You speak as if Oliveria won vs Serral, he didnt, he lost. And Oliveira regularly trades series between the players you mention. Bro It's you want to compare GSL with ESL spring, not me. I just told you Maru's GSL run is less difficult than Serral's ESL run. Well if you don't want to engage to the debate, then don't. But if you do and you tell me that Maru's GSL run was easier than Serral Dallas run, I just hard disagree. They are comparable. 1. From opponent aspect: Serral's opponents: Maru, Oliveira, Shin, herO, Nice; Maru opponent: herO, Cure, Classic, soO, Shin. They both had Shin and herO, Nice is the weakest so ignore him. Oliveira performed really well in TvZ recently, much better than Classic performed in TvP, soO is already a tier 2 zerg and had nearly 0 chance of getting into ESWC. The rest is Maru and Cure, do you believe Cure is on the same level as Maru, don't make me laugh. 2. From tournament aspect, GSL top 6 are qualified to ESL spring, but top 4 in Dallas are directly qualified to ESWC, you see the difference? In ESL system Dallas is ranked higher than GSL. 3. From player sink aspect, GSL is a korean based tournament and ESL spring is a global, international tournament. In GSL you can't see Serral, Reynor (not in GSL during S1), Clem, HM, Oliveira and other competitive players all over the world, but in ESL you can. Okay, already explained reasons to you. Feel free to cope any harder.
1. Yes, I do think that defeating soO Cure and Classic is a more challenging path than defeating Oliveria and Nice.
2. Congratulations! You realized that the ESL system is a welfare system designed to boost the SC2 in Europe/Americas/Asia (which is a good thing) and the seeds do not reflect the overall strength of the different scenes. Where are you been these last 7 years?
3. True, you cant see many Asia/EU players in GSL (they are able to participate, but its unrealistic given the near zero chances they have to win). But GSL is strong because its competing players fill most of the playoffs of Katowices,Blizcons, ESL masters (again this is the argument you fail to argue against).
Get rekt bro
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On June 28 2024 04:45 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2024 04:25 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 04:13 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 04:07 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 04:00 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:52 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:44 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:27 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:04 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 02:56 njleslu2024 wrote:
[quote]
Maru had 7 matches in S1 because he lost 0-2 to herO not the tournament is good or hard, you know that factordon’t you?
Classic lost to Oliveira in Dalllas and current soO is just a tier 2 Zerg not even close to Oliveira. It’s no doubt Serral’s run in Dallas is much much more impressive than Maru GSL S1.
That is a weird twisted logic you employ. By your logic Oliveria is the 2nd best non-korean and Stats is better than Clem. Your logic is twisted, I don’t know if Oliveira was the second best non Korean but I know he did performed much better in facing Serral than any other Terran players since IEM Katowice, he beaten Reynor 3-1 and he just beat Dark 2-1showing he is very strong in TvZ at that time. No players besides hero in GSL has given Maru so much great pressure as Oliveira given to Serral. But hero was also beaten by Serral in Dallas and Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely in a different level of other Koreans. If you think Maru is nothing but on the same level of Shin Cure ByuN Solar , and beating Maru is not a greater task than beating these players, feel free to do so I don’t care. The game has more dimensions other than measuring how much "presure" a player gives to Serral to judge their overall skill in the game. Besides, Olivera said himself that most of it its due to the familiarity he has practicing vs Serral. What I think is not that Maru is at the same level than Shin/Cure/Buyun/Solar. What I said is this: 1) The player field level experienced at Dallas by the winner is similar to the playerfield level experienced by the GSL winner. 2) Both of the winners of GSL and Dallas had a similar amount of games they had to win to achieve the title. 3) When one looks at the players that have reached the playoffs of Dallas, 6 out of 8 are players which participated in the current edition of GSL. Do you agree then that winning Dallas is more or less the same as winning this year's edition of GSL? 1. What on Earth tells you current GSL is comparable to ESL Dallas? Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely on a different level than other Koreans. Maru can’t beat himself, the strongest opponent is hero, who also lost to Serral so Maru’s GSL already lost. 2. Oliveira’s TvZ is the best or at least one of the best in the world at this second. I said he not only gave Serral much more pressure than Maru, but also beat Reynor and Dark recently. So beating Oliveira is also a great achievement than beating Cure ByuN soO etc, who had never won a single series against Serral and Dark in a really long time. 1. I see, so you treat SC2 are a rock paper scissor game between players to rank them. Ok, very reasonable. 2. You speak as if Oliveria won vs Serral, he didnt, he lost. And Oliveira regularly trades series between the players you mention. Bro It's you want to compare GSL with ESL spring, not me. I just told you Maru's GSL run is less difficult than Serral's ESL run. Well if you don't want to engage to the debate, then don't. But if you do and you tell me that Maru's GSL run was easier than Serral Dallas run, I just hard disagree. They are comparable. 1. From opponent aspect: Serral's opponents: Maru, Oliveira, Shin, herO, Nice; Maru opponent: herO, Cure, Classic, soO, Shin. They both had Shin and herO, Nice is the weakest so ignore him. Oliveira performed really well in TvZ recently, much better than Classic performed in TvP, soO is already a tier 2 zerg and had nearly 0 chance of getting into ESWC. The rest is Maru and Cure, do you believe Cure is on the same level as Maru, don't make me laugh. 2. From tournament aspect, GSL top 6 are qualified to ESL spring, but top 4 in Dallas are directly qualified to ESWC, you see the difference? In ESL system Dallas is ranked higher than GSL. 3. From player sink aspect, GSL is a korean based tournament and ESL spring is a global, international tournament. In GSL you can't see Serral, Reynor (not in GSL during S1), Clem, HM, Oliveira and other competitive players all over the world, but in ESL you can. Okay, already explained reasons to you. Feel free to cope any harder. 1. Yes, I do think that defeating soO Cure and Classic is a more challenging path than defeating Oliveria and Nice. 2. Congratulations! You realized that the ESL system is a welfare system designed to boost the SC2 in Europe/Americas/Asia (which is a good thing) and the seeds do not reflect the overall strength of the different scenes. Where are you been these last 7 years? 3. True, you cant see many Asia/EU players in GSL (they are able to participate, but its unrealistic given the near zero chances they have to win). But GSL is strong because its competing players fill most of the playoffs of Katowices,Blizcons, ESL masters (again this is the argument you fail to argue against). Get rekt bro
So you cannot admit Maru is on Serral's path and beating Maru is much more difficult than beating soO Cure and Classic combined? Why you always dodge the main question about Maru but only picking up fight with me regarding the strength of Oliveira? What's more interesting is I have explained to you Oliveira's TvZ is top level during Dallas and he can cast large thread to Serral provided he knows Serral more than any other Terran. I don't wanna hear any reason like "I think", "I do think" or "I hard disagree", which is not making any sense.
And I don't care if ESL is a welfare system or something else, I just want to let you know in the current tournament system Dallas top 4 can be qualified to global final but GSL champion cannot be qualified, this is how ESL ranked the quality of the tournaments, when GSL is prestigious enough GSL champion can also directly go to global final, that's the difference.
What's more, you may misunderstood the "average quality" and "top quality" of the player pools, GSL players are still better in average quality in large tournaments at this second, but since 2023 GSL or any Korean players haven't won ANY single global scale tournament, starting IEM 2023, all tournaments were won by non-koreans (Oliveira, Serral, Reynor and Clem got all of them). To measure the quality champion we have to comapre the top level instead of average quality.
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On June 28 2024 05:05 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2024 04:45 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 04:25 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 04:13 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 04:07 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 04:00 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:52 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:44 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:27 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:04 Argonauta wrote:
[quote]
That is a weird twisted logic you employ. By your logic Oliveria is the 2nd best non-korean and Stats is better than Clem.
Your logic is twisted, I don’t know if Oliveira was the second best non Korean but I know he did performed much better in facing Serral than any other Terran players since IEM Katowice, he beaten Reynor 3-1 and he just beat Dark 2-1showing he is very strong in TvZ at that time. No players besides hero in GSL has given Maru so much great pressure as Oliveira given to Serral. But hero was also beaten by Serral in Dallas and Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely in a different level of other Koreans. If you think Maru is nothing but on the same level of Shin Cure ByuN Solar , and beating Maru is not a greater task than beating these players, feel free to do so I don’t care. The game has more dimensions other than measuring how much "presure" a player gives to Serral to judge their overall skill in the game. Besides, Olivera said himself that most of it its due to the familiarity he has practicing vs Serral. What I think is not that Maru is at the same level than Shin/Cure/Buyun/Solar. What I said is this: 1) The player field level experienced at Dallas by the winner is similar to the playerfield level experienced by the GSL winner. 2) Both of the winners of GSL and Dallas had a similar amount of games they had to win to achieve the title. 3) When one looks at the players that have reached the playoffs of Dallas, 6 out of 8 are players which participated in the current edition of GSL. Do you agree then that winning Dallas is more or less the same as winning this year's edition of GSL? 1. What on Earth tells you current GSL is comparable to ESL Dallas? Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely on a different level than other Koreans. Maru can’t beat himself, the strongest opponent is hero, who also lost to Serral so Maru’s GSL already lost. 2. Oliveira’s TvZ is the best or at least one of the best in the world at this second. I said he not only gave Serral much more pressure than Maru, but also beat Reynor and Dark recently. So beating Oliveira is also a great achievement than beating Cure ByuN soO etc, who had never won a single series against Serral and Dark in a really long time. 1. I see, so you treat SC2 are a rock paper scissor game between players to rank them. Ok, very reasonable. 2. You speak as if Oliveria won vs Serral, he didnt, he lost. And Oliveira regularly trades series between the players you mention. Bro It's you want to compare GSL with ESL spring, not me. I just told you Maru's GSL run is less difficult than Serral's ESL run. Well if you don't want to engage to the debate, then don't. But if you do and you tell me that Maru's GSL run was easier than Serral Dallas run, I just hard disagree. They are comparable. 1. From opponent aspect: Serral's opponents: Maru, Oliveira, Shin, herO, Nice; Maru opponent: herO, Cure, Classic, soO, Shin. They both had Shin and herO, Nice is the weakest so ignore him. Oliveira performed really well in TvZ recently, much better than Classic performed in TvP, soO is already a tier 2 zerg and had nearly 0 chance of getting into ESWC. The rest is Maru and Cure, do you believe Cure is on the same level as Maru, don't make me laugh. 2. From tournament aspect, GSL top 6 are qualified to ESL spring, but top 4 in Dallas are directly qualified to ESWC, you see the difference? In ESL system Dallas is ranked higher than GSL. 3. From player sink aspect, GSL is a korean based tournament and ESL spring is a global, international tournament. In GSL you can't see Serral, Reynor (not in GSL during S1), Clem, HM, Oliveira and other competitive players all over the world, but in ESL you can. Okay, already explained reasons to you. Feel free to cope any harder. 1. Yes, I do think that defeating soO Cure and Classic is a more challenging path than defeating Oliveria and Nice. 2. Congratulations! You realized that the ESL system is a welfare system designed to boost the SC2 in Europe/Americas/Asia (which is a good thing) and the seeds do not reflect the overall strength of the different scenes. Where are you been these last 7 years? 3. True, you cant see many Asia/EU players in GSL (they are able to participate, but its unrealistic given the near zero chances they have to win). But GSL is strong because its competing players fill most of the playoffs of Katowices,Blizcons, ESL masters (again this is the argument you fail to argue against). Get rekt bro So you cannot admit Maru is on Serral's path and beating Maru is much more difficult than beating soO Cure and Classic combined? Why you always dodge the main question about Maru but only picking up fight with me regarding the strength of Oliveira? What's more interesting is I have explained to you Oliveira's TvZ is top level during Dallas and he can cast large thread to Serral provided he knows Serral more than any other Terran. I don't wanna hear any reason like "I think", "I do think" or "I hard disagree", which is not making any sense. And I don't care if ESL is a welfare system or something else, I just want to let you know in the current tournament system Dallas top 4 can be qualified to global final but GSL champion cannot be qualified, this is how ESL ranked the quality of the tournaments, when GSL is prestigious enough GSL champion can also directly go to global final, that's the difference. What's more, you may misunderstood the "average quality" and "top quality" of the player pools, GSL players are still better in average quality in large tournaments at this second, but since 2023 GSL or any Korean players haven't won ANY single global scale tournament, starting IEM 2023, all tournaments were won by non-koreans (Oliveira, Serral, Reynor and Clem got all of them). To measure the quality champion we have to comapre the top level instead of average quality.
Oh, I didnt mention the Serral beating Maru thing, because we all agree beating the Goat in a final is very impressive, I though it was not need to state.
Olivera is very good vs Serral because they are practise partners as Oliveria himself said, Olivera can sometimes pull above its strengths and make impressive runs, yet he is not on par of Cure's and herO's skillset (for example).
Indeed, GSL has a better overall quality but EU has the Clem/Reynor/Serral trio which are on par at least and sometimes better than most korean players. Precisely because of that, GSL is still a very competitive tourney (for example Reynor failed to take a single map in this current season).
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In the Katowice 2023 gsl did give a direct ticket to the tournament, as well as the masters tournaments.
I think an on fire Oliveira, which he were, is more powerful than a Cure, though if they met in a GSL finals Cure would probably most likely win. Oliveira seem to thrive on the momentum that he builds during a weekend tournament, which is also an awesome talent.
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On June 28 2024 05:46 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2024 05:05 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 04:45 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 04:25 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 04:13 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 04:07 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 04:00 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:52 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:44 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:27 njleslu2024 wrote:
[quote]
Your logic is twisted, I don’t know if Oliveira was the second best non Korean but I know he did performed much better in facing Serral than any other Terran players since IEM Katowice, he beaten Reynor 3-1 and he just beat Dark 2-1showing he is very strong in TvZ at that time. No players besides hero in GSL has given Maru so much great pressure as Oliveira given to Serral. But hero was also beaten by Serral in Dallas and Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely in a different level of other Koreans.
If you think Maru is nothing but on the same level of Shin Cure ByuN Solar , and beating Maru is not a greater task than beating these players, feel free to do so I don’t care. The game has more dimensions other than measuring how much "presure" a player gives to Serral to judge their overall skill in the game. Besides, Olivera said himself that most of it its due to the familiarity he has practicing vs Serral. What I think is not that Maru is at the same level than Shin/Cure/Buyun/Solar. What I said is this: 1) The player field level experienced at Dallas by the winner is similar to the playerfield level experienced by the GSL winner. 2) Both of the winners of GSL and Dallas had a similar amount of games they had to win to achieve the title. 3) When one looks at the players that have reached the playoffs of Dallas, 6 out of 8 are players which participated in the current edition of GSL. Do you agree then that winning Dallas is more or less the same as winning this year's edition of GSL? 1. What on Earth tells you current GSL is comparable to ESL Dallas? Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely on a different level than other Koreans. Maru can’t beat himself, the strongest opponent is hero, who also lost to Serral so Maru’s GSL already lost. 2. Oliveira’s TvZ is the best or at least one of the best in the world at this second. I said he not only gave Serral much more pressure than Maru, but also beat Reynor and Dark recently. So beating Oliveira is also a great achievement than beating Cure ByuN soO etc, who had never won a single series against Serral and Dark in a really long time. 1. I see, so you treat SC2 are a rock paper scissor game between players to rank them. Ok, very reasonable. 2. You speak as if Oliveria won vs Serral, he didnt, he lost. And Oliveira regularly trades series between the players you mention. Bro It's you want to compare GSL with ESL spring, not me. I just told you Maru's GSL run is less difficult than Serral's ESL run. Well if you don't want to engage to the debate, then don't. But if you do and you tell me that Maru's GSL run was easier than Serral Dallas run, I just hard disagree. They are comparable. 1. From opponent aspect: Serral's opponents: Maru, Oliveira, Shin, herO, Nice; Maru opponent: herO, Cure, Classic, soO, Shin. They both had Shin and herO, Nice is the weakest so ignore him. Oliveira performed really well in TvZ recently, much better than Classic performed in TvP, soO is already a tier 2 zerg and had nearly 0 chance of getting into ESWC. The rest is Maru and Cure, do you believe Cure is on the same level as Maru, don't make me laugh. 2. From tournament aspect, GSL top 6 are qualified to ESL spring, but top 4 in Dallas are directly qualified to ESWC, you see the difference? In ESL system Dallas is ranked higher than GSL. 3. From player sink aspect, GSL is a korean based tournament and ESL spring is a global, international tournament. In GSL you can't see Serral, Reynor (not in GSL during S1), Clem, HM, Oliveira and other competitive players all over the world, but in ESL you can. Okay, already explained reasons to you. Feel free to cope any harder. 1. Yes, I do think that defeating soO Cure and Classic is a more challenging path than defeating Oliveria and Nice. 2. Congratulations! You realized that the ESL system is a welfare system designed to boost the SC2 in Europe/Americas/Asia (which is a good thing) and the seeds do not reflect the overall strength of the different scenes. Where are you been these last 7 years? 3. True, you cant see many Asia/EU players in GSL (they are able to participate, but its unrealistic given the near zero chances they have to win). But GSL is strong because its competing players fill most of the playoffs of Katowices,Blizcons, ESL masters (again this is the argument you fail to argue against). Get rekt bro So you cannot admit Maru is on Serral's path and beating Maru is much more difficult than beating soO Cure and Classic combined? Why you always dodge the main question about Maru but only picking up fight with me regarding the strength of Oliveira? What's more interesting is I have explained to you Oliveira's TvZ is top level during Dallas and he can cast large thread to Serral provided he knows Serral more than any other Terran. I don't wanna hear any reason like "I think", "I do think" or "I hard disagree", which is not making any sense. And I don't care if ESL is a welfare system or something else, I just want to let you know in the current tournament system Dallas top 4 can be qualified to global final but GSL champion cannot be qualified, this is how ESL ranked the quality of the tournaments, when GSL is prestigious enough GSL champion can also directly go to global final, that's the difference. What's more, you may misunderstood the "average quality" and "top quality" of the player pools, GSL players are still better in average quality in large tournaments at this second, but since 2023 GSL or any Korean players haven't won ANY single global scale tournament, starting IEM 2023, all tournaments were won by non-koreans (Oliveira, Serral, Reynor and Clem got all of them). To measure the quality champion we have to comapre the top level instead of average quality. Oh, I didnt mention the Serral beating Maru thing, because we all agree beating the Goat in a final is very impressive, I though it was not need to state. Olivera is very good vs Serral because they are practise partners as Oliveria himself said, Olivera can sometimes pull above its strengths and make impressive runs, yet he is not on par of Cure's and herO's skillset (for example). Indeed, GSL has a better overall quality but EU has the Clem/Reynor/Serral trio which are on par at least and sometimes better than most korean players. Precisely because of that, GSL is still a very competitive tourney (for example Reynor failed to take a single map in this current season).
Please note that GSL 2024 S1 doesn't include any top European players, but ESL Spring included both top Korean and top European players, and some decent players in Asia and America. That's why ESL master is more like a global scale tournament than GSL.
For Oliveira's part I don't want to explain it again like an old father. Already explained to you a few times.
Ohh, I forgot to say, yes you are right, Maru is the goat and he got swept Serral 0-4 0-4 0-3 this year and he is still the goat.
I know the answer for the goat debate: YOU CANT BE GOAT UNLESS YOU HAVE 0 WC AND YOU HAVE TO GET SWEPT OVER AND OVER AGAIN. Sadly, Serral hasn't, damn, so he can never be goat.
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ESWC > IEM Katowice > ESL masters > GSL > other, winning current GSL is not the same as winning Dallas, not even close.
found the kid that's never played in a sports league his entire life, lol
sc2 reddit is leakin'
User was warned for this post
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Cope harder.
someone launch this sc2 fan circa 2023 kid back to reddit
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On June 28 2024 06:29 radracer wrote:Show nested quote +
ESWC > IEM Katowice > ESL masters > GSL > other, winning current GSL is not the same as winning Dallas, not even close.
found the kid that's never played in a sports league his entire life, lol sc2 reddit is leakin'
I was talking about GSL and ESL masters THIS YEAR. Someone may have to send you back to your primary school and you may need to pick up your basic reading ability :-)
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On June 27 2024 22:37 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2024 13:28 NoobSkills wrote:
1. Nobody said you had to eliminate it entirely or even take half. But again this wasn't the only issue with Blizzard's preference and style of ruining their esports titles. And you don't know that it would have lead to anything except for a more stable scene. Perhaps instead eliminating WCS all together and sponsoring the actual TO's instead and forcing everyone to adhere to a schedule they set. There would still be an advantage to EU/NA as those events would be held there and participated in by most of the players. And while you say "barely anyone cared about" it was a 15 year old game at the time. There was still plenty of global interest for that game, but if there really was no interest why did they feel the need to cut out it's legs? On a much smaller scale than SC2, Microsoft is currently pumping money into AoE 2. They don't organize anything themselves, they just fund TOs out of the community (mostly streamers, so not companies like ESL). And you know what? Those TOs STILL have to adhere to Microsofts schedule. Because wow, Microsoft doesn't want two S-Tier tournaments at the same time, practically splitting the pro-players in half and weakening the effect of each tournament. So even IF Blizzard would have been crazy enough to just throw money at multiple TOs to host their own events, all of these TOs still would have done everything aligned with Blizzards interests. You can't have the money without the say... Show nested quote +2. Blizzard paid what? A miniscule sum of money over 10 years leeching off the competetive and tournament scene they did absolutely nothing to build? They saw that they were finally about to make money and came to siphon off every drop they could possible get. Eliminating competition for whoever was going to pay them the most. It isn't the least bit disrespectful, more of an accurate assessment of the worth of Blizzard in esports. Hearthstone, SC2, War3, BW, OWL, have all but died or are shadows of their formerselves becuase of Blizzard's interference. SC2 probably would have not only done better without them, but would be stronger still as well.
Miniscule sum? Are you high or something? Blizzard funded WCS for years, they funded GSL right from the get-go (in part so it could even hold up against OGN/Kespa). And even after they jumped out, they still paid ESl for another two years before finally leaving. They didn't "siphon" anything. Pretty sure they lost a huge sum of cash on their entire Esport investment. BW and War3 were "hit" by the release of SC2 more than anything else...and of course the fact that you could make actual money there as a player. That was right after the first big economical bubble-burst in Esports, too. Hearthstone was never really an "Esports-game", yet Blizzard threw money at it. And Overwatch was designed mostly from the start to end up in OWL...which then of course failed in the end, but that seems more to be a problem with "Blizzard as the developer" and not "Blizzard the TO". And just a reminder, we are purely talking about "Blizzard the TO" here. And yeah, pretty sure SC2 wouldn't have done better without Blizzard money. In fact, the game would probably looked like it does today for ten years instead. So basically worse, since I can't imagine 14-year-old Maru and 15-year old Reynor jumping into SC2 if you are playing for peanuts most of the time. Especially Maru would have certainly done something different...who knows, maybe he would be in LoL now not winning Worlds. Show nested quote +
3. Please they certainly did. They started challenging them on liscensing, and were threatening to give GOM control over broadcasting and tournaments. You are right broodwar wasn't doing great, crazy how a game that came out 15 years later and had to expansions isn't doing great right now in far less time. And that BW scene yeah it shrunk a bit, but it was due to a Korean recession moreso than anything else, not due to suddenly people not wanting to watch. And since it was largely fueled by massive companies that were shortening their budgets that was the downfall of those teams. And you're right they didn't make some massive come back because they were thwarted and killed off by moves Blizzard made.
You really should read-up on the entire thing, because it really didn't happen (as far as we publicly know) as you think. It wasn't Blizzard pummeling on poor Kespa/OGN. In fact, Kespa started first, bullying GomTV, trying to get rid of it by blocking their players to compete in their events - which was still in BroodWar btw. The only "moves" Blizzard did to destroy the old system was a)release a new game...shame on them and b)not just give in into all demands Kespa made. Not saying Blizzard was completly innocent, they certainly did come in strong, being the first who actually said "fuck this, this our game, we have the rights to everything related to it"...a thing anyone else does by now, too. Show nested quote +4. Nobody said only held in area where the best talent is, but they are largely located nearer to the population center. We aren't hosting crossfire tournaments here in NA. And just because CS2 has a few one offs and a rotation major local doesn't change the fact that like 85% of the events are in EU or somewhat EU centric. As for the global entities for Valorant/LoL they fully support their own structure, and because all of the participants are taken care of they can be as global as they please. Strange though they didn't have to exit LoL, oh that's right because they built it up themselves, and when they did take over, they shouldered the responsibility of carrying it through. It aren't "a few". ESL as the forerunner especially is trying to make the competition as global as possible. Sure, EU is still holding the majority, but might I remind you that the EU (not to mention Europe as a whole) alone has eight to nine times the residents of South Korea. And the fanbase here for Counterstrike is gigantic. So it makes sense. What's not making sense is hosting everything SC2-related in Korea... And was for the LoL/Valo thing...of course Riot didn't kill off LoL for Valo. For one, they are entirely different genres, so they are not competing with each other, but instead support each other. And also...Blizzard didn't kill off BW in Korea (everywhere else, again, it was dead anyway). They didn't say "Kespa has to close down everything". It just became hugely unsuistanable with SC2 being around, the economical crisis and companies in Korea probalby wanting to jump onto the new ship. Show nested quote +5. Again each team is different in CS2. Is faze profitable? No, they went broke and had to sell themselves from over extending. Are vitality/G2? Nope. But are Mouz/VP/Ence/Col/Heroic/Mongolz? Yup. The teams that are buying trophies are the broke ones. But there are sustainable teams, especially MOUZ who is winning in all regards. They're farming bonus sticker money, selling off players, and have a budget roster, while winning events. But that depends on how you run your team, but there certainly are avenues to be profitable in CS2 without reliance on sticker money. Pretty sure Heroic is broke af aswell. And the financial situation of MOUZ for example remains to be seen. I would say they are holding up and are not in crisis, but I personally wouldn't bet money that they are profitable to a bigger degree. But I don't want to digress into this too much further, since I honestly can't even remember why we started this particular part of the debate and how it was linked to Starcraft ._. Closing thoughts: First of all, I think Blizzard did one huge mistake...and ironically, it was the exact opposite of what you think. Blizzard tried to have the global appeal of WC3, but still wanted Korea to enjoy its highly organized "Bubble". Sadly, that might have let to them not winning on either side of the bracket. Riot did the opposite: Riot always said "fuck it Korea, you have the best players and teams, but you don't get any special treatment". Sure, Korea often gets the most slots for Worlds, but they are not hugely different compared to China or EMEA. And the LCK is paying out almost the same money as the LEC. And nobody there is complaining "buhu, the tenth placed team in Korea *might* (we honestly don't know) be better than the winnier of LEC, so unfair!". Okay, we do know, G2 would wreck the bottom half of LCK-teams, but anyway. That led to a global scene, a global appeal. EMEA-fans can enjoy their hometown teams, with amazingly produced games. And we can cheer for our times at global competitions, even when they usually get destroyed by the topdogs of Korea and China. You don't need the Proleague-Kespa-Bubble. if I had to guess, I would say you are more of a BroodWar than SC2 fan, right? And it is fine if you are pissed at the developer Blizzard, I'm not arguing there. But when it comes to supporting Esports, especially Starcraft, you are hugely unfair. And I still get the feeling you are somehow mad that Blizzard didn't release SC2 and then said "so and now Kespa gets one million bucks a year to continue to run BroodWar, because that's totally reasonable!" I get that, I was mad in 2010 aswell, when players, TOs and viewers alike run away from WC3 towards SC2. But you can't expect Blizzard to just throw away money for everything, just so that a few people are happy and get their own game supported.
I'm not sure Microsoft is pumping money into AOE2 like you think. I know they work a lot with T90 and support his prize pools voluntarily, but maybe I don't know everything about the AOE2 tournament scene. If I remember a lot of their S tier events are run by individuals not even TOs and I'm not sure if there is any real support from Microsoft. As for following the rules all of them follow the rules anyway and I doubt microsoft has to say anything. Not that they couldn't, but if your main Casters at Redbull are the TOs you're trying to fuck over in that scene you're going to have a bad time. This btw is in regard to T90 and Nilli(i think spelling***) both holding their own S tier events in that space.
Yes, minuscule sum. They funded the WCS for years and the GSL/GOM from the get go sure. Riot/Valve are putting on events every year, with prize pools that surpass anything Blizzard has done greatly. They also never backed down, they're still doing it right now despite spending far more money.
As for OWL they collected millions in franchise fees to run an event while clipping anyone else's shot of running an event. You're claiming that Blizzard the developer and that isn't the case. It was the blizzard the TO ran their tournament into the ground.
As for 14 year old Maru and 15 year old Reynor, I'm sure every little kid playing a video game is thinking about the potential esports implications of the video game he likes lol..... And it is funny there were events run without Blizzard for the longest that weren't offering "peanuts" as you put it with ZERO blizzard support.
I think you read the legal portion of what happened because technically Blizzard was legally right in what they did. But they did that in order to force their hands in everything. You can pretend it was just about the legal aspect, but it wasn't. You are right though KESPA were dicks as well, but that was the way they were forced to fight the inevitable. In the end KESPA's only move at the time was to try and hold their players back, but it wasn't going to work, and giving a TO power over the game in that country was always going to lead down that road.
Again I never said they should hold every SC2 match in Korea, they just didn't need to mess with the systems in place they had no part of for over a decade. And I also never said Riot killed off LOL for Valo. It was more in terms of they didn't actively try to kill of entities that existed. Also those they did harm, they basically hired to run the LoL/Valorant product. Much different than Blizzard's approach. And you're right they didn't order KESPA to close down. Just pay the liscensing fees, and don't compete with GOM ever, even though they're running something 24/7, and if you attempt to hold back your players from them, then the licensing fee will be increased, oh and whatever rules GOM wants to make up to mess with you, you'll need to follow.
Heroic - Not broke, for sure a budget team, but is profitable. Just sold off the snakes and Cadian. MOUZ same to a lesser extend. The main financial line in CS in terms of individual CS teams being profitable is simply salary for the players.
In general sure, I like BW more so than SC2, but that doesn't change anything really. But overall I'm more of an esports fan of many titles. I don't get how anything is unfair though. I'm not mad that Blizzard didn't give KESPA money or OSL/MSL/Proleague. I'm mad they messed up their system on purpose to kill them off. I'm mad they were leeches in esports, and it is hilarious that despite being the last ones in are the first ones out after killing off competition to leech even more out of the scene. KESPA managed to stay afloat during a recession where their finances depended on that exact same economy. Blizzard however lasted less time in esports than KESPA, while not suffering from that same type of issue lol. Best part is nobody actually needed Blizzard's support. MLG existed, Dreamhacks, IEM, PGL, ESL, NASL.
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I don't know why you guys are putting so much effort into comparing Maru's GSL path vs Serral's spring path. If you wanted to judge the tournament difficulty by path you would compare Maru's GSL path to Maru's spring path. That properly shows the difficulty of the tournament to win from Maru's perspective. And the conclusion you can draw from that exercise is tournaments with Serral in them are generally harder to win than tournaments without Serral in them.
Serral will typically have the easiesr path compared to everyone else in the tournament. He's usually the top seed, but most importantly he doesn't have to play Serral.
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Serral will typically have the easiesr path compared to everyone else in the tournament (...) he doesn't have to play Serral.
Jesus you just summed that up didn't you
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On June 28 2024 06:49 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2024 22:37 Balnazza wrote:On June 27 2024 13:28 NoobSkills wrote:
1. Nobody said you had to eliminate it entirely or even take half. But again this wasn't the only issue with Blizzard's preference and style of ruining their esports titles. And you don't know that it would have lead to anything except for a more stable scene. Perhaps instead eliminating WCS all together and sponsoring the actual TO's instead and forcing everyone to adhere to a schedule they set. There would still be an advantage to EU/NA as those events would be held there and participated in by most of the players. And while you say "barely anyone cared about" it was a 15 year old game at the time. There was still plenty of global interest for that game, but if there really was no interest why did they feel the need to cut out it's legs? On a much smaller scale than SC2, Microsoft is currently pumping money into AoE 2. They don't organize anything themselves, they just fund TOs out of the community (mostly streamers, so not companies like ESL). And you know what? Those TOs STILL have to adhere to Microsofts schedule. Because wow, Microsoft doesn't want two S-Tier tournaments at the same time, practically splitting the pro-players in half and weakening the effect of each tournament. So even IF Blizzard would have been crazy enough to just throw money at multiple TOs to host their own events, all of these TOs still would have done everything aligned with Blizzards interests. You can't have the money without the say... 2. Blizzard paid what? A miniscule sum of money over 10 years leeching off the competetive and tournament scene they did absolutely nothing to build? They saw that they were finally about to make money and came to siphon off every drop they could possible get. Eliminating competition for whoever was going to pay them the most. It isn't the least bit disrespectful, more of an accurate assessment of the worth of Blizzard in esports. Hearthstone, SC2, War3, BW, OWL, have all but died or are shadows of their formerselves becuase of Blizzard's interference. SC2 probably would have not only done better without them, but would be stronger still as well.
Miniscule sum? Are you high or something? Blizzard funded WCS for years, they funded GSL right from the get-go (in part so it could even hold up against OGN/Kespa). And even after they jumped out, they still paid ESl for another two years before finally leaving. They didn't "siphon" anything. Pretty sure they lost a huge sum of cash on their entire Esport investment. BW and War3 were "hit" by the release of SC2 more than anything else...and of course the fact that you could make actual money there as a player. That was right after the first big economical bubble-burst in Esports, too. Hearthstone was never really an "Esports-game", yet Blizzard threw money at it. And Overwatch was designed mostly from the start to end up in OWL...which then of course failed in the end, but that seems more to be a problem with "Blizzard as the developer" and not "Blizzard the TO". And just a reminder, we are purely talking about "Blizzard the TO" here. And yeah, pretty sure SC2 wouldn't have done better without Blizzard money. In fact, the game would probably looked like it does today for ten years instead. So basically worse, since I can't imagine 14-year-old Maru and 15-year old Reynor jumping into SC2 if you are playing for peanuts most of the time. Especially Maru would have certainly done something different...who knows, maybe he would be in LoL now not winning Worlds.
3. Please they certainly did. They started challenging them on liscensing, and were threatening to give GOM control over broadcasting and tournaments. You are right broodwar wasn't doing great, crazy how a game that came out 15 years later and had to expansions isn't doing great right now in far less time. And that BW scene yeah it shrunk a bit, but it was due to a Korean recession moreso than anything else, not due to suddenly people not wanting to watch. And since it was largely fueled by massive companies that were shortening their budgets that was the downfall of those teams. And you're right they didn't make some massive come back because they were thwarted and killed off by moves Blizzard made.
You really should read-up on the entire thing, because it really didn't happen (as far as we publicly know) as you think. It wasn't Blizzard pummeling on poor Kespa/OGN. In fact, Kespa started first, bullying GomTV, trying to get rid of it by blocking their players to compete in their events - which was still in BroodWar btw. The only "moves" Blizzard did to destroy the old system was a)release a new game...shame on them and b)not just give in into all demands Kespa made. Not saying Blizzard was completly innocent, they certainly did come in strong, being the first who actually said "fuck this, this our game, we have the rights to everything related to it"...a thing anyone else does by now, too. 4. Nobody said only held in area where the best talent is, but they are largely located nearer to the population center. We aren't hosting crossfire tournaments here in NA. And just because CS2 has a few one offs and a rotation major local doesn't change the fact that like 85% of the events are in EU or somewhat EU centric. As for the global entities for Valorant/LoL they fully support their own structure, and because all of the participants are taken care of they can be as global as they please. Strange though they didn't have to exit LoL, oh that's right because they built it up themselves, and when they did take over, they shouldered the responsibility of carrying it through. It aren't "a few". ESL as the forerunner especially is trying to make the competition as global as possible. Sure, EU is still holding the majority, but might I remind you that the EU (not to mention Europe as a whole) alone has eight to nine times the residents of South Korea. And the fanbase here for Counterstrike is gigantic. So it makes sense. What's not making sense is hosting everything SC2-related in Korea... And was for the LoL/Valo thing...of course Riot didn't kill off LoL for Valo. For one, they are entirely different genres, so they are not competing with each other, but instead support each other. And also...Blizzard didn't kill off BW in Korea (everywhere else, again, it was dead anyway). They didn't say "Kespa has to close down everything". It just became hugely unsuistanable with SC2 being around, the economical crisis and companies in Korea probalby wanting to jump onto the new ship. 5. Again each team is different in CS2. Is faze profitable? No, they went broke and had to sell themselves from over extending. Are vitality/G2? Nope. But are Mouz/VP/Ence/Col/Heroic/Mongolz? Yup. The teams that are buying trophies are the broke ones. But there are sustainable teams, especially MOUZ who is winning in all regards. They're farming bonus sticker money, selling off players, and have a budget roster, while winning events. But that depends on how you run your team, but there certainly are avenues to be profitable in CS2 without reliance on sticker money. Pretty sure Heroic is broke af aswell. And the financial situation of MOUZ for example remains to be seen. I would say they are holding up and are not in crisis, but I personally wouldn't bet money that they are profitable to a bigger degree. But I don't want to digress into this too much further, since I honestly can't even remember why we started this particular part of the debate and how it was linked to Starcraft ._. Closing thoughts: First of all, I think Blizzard did one huge mistake...and ironically, it was the exact opposite of what you think. Blizzard tried to have the global appeal of WC3, but still wanted Korea to enjoy its highly organized "Bubble". Sadly, that might have let to them not winning on either side of the bracket. Riot did the opposite: Riot always said "fuck it Korea, you have the best players and teams, but you don't get any special treatment". Sure, Korea often gets the most slots for Worlds, but they are not hugely different compared to China or EMEA. And the LCK is paying out almost the same money as the LEC. And nobody there is complaining "buhu, the tenth placed team in Korea *might* (we honestly don't know) be better than the winnier of LEC, so unfair!". Okay, we do know, G2 would wreck the bottom half of LCK-teams, but anyway. That led to a global scene, a global appeal. EMEA-fans can enjoy their hometown teams, with amazingly produced games. And we can cheer for our times at global competitions, even when they usually get destroyed by the topdogs of Korea and China. You don't need the Proleague-Kespa-Bubble. if I had to guess, I would say you are more of a BroodWar than SC2 fan, right? And it is fine if you are pissed at the developer Blizzard, I'm not arguing there. But when it comes to supporting Esports, especially Starcraft, you are hugely unfair. And I still get the feeling you are somehow mad that Blizzard didn't release SC2 and then said "so and now Kespa gets one million bucks a year to continue to run BroodWar, because that's totally reasonable!" I get that, I was mad in 2010 aswell, when players, TOs and viewers alike run away from WC3 towards SC2. But you can't expect Blizzard to just throw away money for everything, just so that a few people are happy and get their own game supported. I'm not sure Microsoft is pumping money into AOE2 like you think. I know they work a lot with T90 and support his prize pools voluntarily, but maybe I don't know everything about the AOE2 tournament scene. If I remember a lot of their S tier events are run by individuals not even TOs and I'm not sure if there is any real support from Microsoft. As for following the rules all of them follow the rules anyway and I doubt microsoft has to say anything. Not that they couldn't, but if your main Casters at Redbull are the TOs you're trying to fuck over in that scene you're going to have a bad time. This btw is in regard to T90 and Nilli(i think spelling***) both holding their own S tier events in that space. Yes, minuscule sum. They funded the WCS for years and the GSL/GOM from the get go sure. Riot/Valve are putting on events every year, with prize pools that surpass anything Blizzard has done greatly. They also never backed down, they're still doing it right now despite spending far more money. As for OWL they collected millions in franchise fees to run an event while clipping anyone else's shot of running an event. You're claiming that Blizzard the developer and that isn't the case. It was the blizzard the TO ran their tournament into the ground. As for 14 year old Maru and 15 year old Reynor, I'm sure every little kid playing a video game is thinking about the potential esports implications of the video game he likes lol..... And it is funny there were events run without Blizzard for the longest that weren't offering "peanuts" as you put it with ZERO blizzard support. I think you read the legal portion of what happened because technically Blizzard was legally right in what they did. But they did that in order to force their hands in everything. You can pretend it was just about the legal aspect, but it wasn't. You are right though KESPA were dicks as well, but that was the way they were forced to fight the inevitable. In the end KESPA's only move at the time was to try and hold their players back, but it wasn't going to work, and giving a TO power over the game in that country was always going to lead down that road. Again I never said they should hold every SC2 match in Korea, they just didn't need to mess with the systems in place they had no part of for over a decade. And I also never said Riot killed off LOL for Valo. It was more in terms of they didn't actively try to kill of entities that existed. Also those they did harm, they basically hired to run the LoL/Valorant product. Much different than Blizzard's approach. And you're right they didn't order KESPA to close down. Just pay the liscensing fees, and don't compete with GOM ever, even though they're running something 24/7, and if you attempt to hold back your players from them, then the licensing fee will be increased, oh and whatever rules GOM wants to make up to mess with you, you'll need to follow. Heroic - Not broke, for sure a budget team, but is profitable. Just sold off the snakes and Cadian. MOUZ same to a lesser extend. The main financial line in CS in terms of individual CS teams being profitable is simply salary for the players. In general sure, I like BW more so than SC2, but that doesn't change anything really. But overall I'm more of an esports fan of many titles. I don't get how anything is unfair though. I'm not mad that Blizzard didn't give KESPA money or OSL/MSL/Proleague. I'm mad they messed up their system on purpose to kill them off. I'm mad they were leeches in esports, and it is hilarious that despite being the last ones in are the first ones out after killing off competition to leech even more out of the scene. KESPA managed to stay afloat during a recession where their finances depended on that exact same economy. Blizzard however lasted less time in esports than KESPA, while not suffering from that same type of issue lol. Best part is nobody actually needed Blizzard's support. MLG existed, Dreamhacks, IEM, PGL, ESL, NASL.
I give you a broad interest in Esports, but I get the feeling you are not particularly in-depth about it, is that possible?
First of all, if you look at the sponsors for any S-Tier Age of Empires 2 tournament, you will always find either Microsoft or Worlds Edge...which is still Microsoft. Microsoft literally employed Nili as "Tournament Director". He was the one managing funding and organizing the schedule...a schedule anyone who wants to get money from Microsoft. The only TO that isn't bound to this is RedBull, because...well, it is RedBull. But even THEY answer to Microsoft scheduling.
Riot is putting in millions into LoL Esports because the game makes that much. SC2 never produced so much money, because it wasn't originally designed to generate revenue. Riot was revolutionary with their idea of a F2P game that still brings in millions.
Do you want to know how little money SC2 made for Blizzard? Wings of Liberty alone got outperformed by a stupid looking Mount in WoW. Don't believe me? Ask one of the devs. Now imagine how freaking much money Riot generates with their skins and what not...
Blizzard paid on and on for SC2, probably losing a sizeable amount of money. And then you come along "hurrdurr they should have put in more money for no reason".
And yes, games before 2010 often just offered "peanuts", especially RTS. Again, teams paid that difference. Teams that ruined themselves around the economic crisis. And even those "peanuts" were debatable to be paid or not.
Blizzard was legally and morally correct. The only option there was to not fight Kespa was to not release SC2 at all...well, that would have been great for the game, right?
You are also incorrect that Valorant "didn't destroy anything" Before the VCT started, multiple TOs run a plethora of events. All of these events are dead now because of the VCT. And LoL was even part of Katowice once upon a time...not anymore. Now even the Saudis have to fight to even get LoL to EWC.
So weird how every Developer does the exact same things Blizzard does...they just do it better. or rather, Blizzard usually wasn't ruthless enough.
Heroic is broke as hell mate. Their stocks were in the shits, I think they even de-listed themselves, buying the stocks back up? Doing good in tournaments and being profitable are two very different things.
Maybe SC2 didn't need Blizzards money. But equally possible no one in 2010+ invests into SC2 without Blizzard either. Because if the TO isn't putting in any money, And please remember that MLG for example started out with rather tame prizepools. Not to mention that there isn't a GSL without Blizzard money.
I can promise you however, without Blizzard money, there is no global competition. There is no ESL Pro Tour. Because there wouldn't have been a scene big enough to be viable for that. You would have your Kespa-run korean tournaments, probably without an english stream, but hey, who needs viewers from outside Koreas....not that it would have been run on OGN, since they went out of business.
And teams still drop out of Proleague. I mean, most ex-Proleagues even dropped out of LoL, which is much more sustainable.
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On June 28 2024 09:54 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2024 06:49 NoobSkills wrote:On June 27 2024 22:37 Balnazza wrote:On June 27 2024 13:28 NoobSkills wrote:
1. Nobody said you had to eliminate it entirely or even take half. But again this wasn't the only issue with Blizzard's preference and style of ruining their esports titles. And you don't know that it would have lead to anything except for a more stable scene. Perhaps instead eliminating WCS all together and sponsoring the actual TO's instead and forcing everyone to adhere to a schedule they set. There would still be an advantage to EU/NA as those events would be held there and participated in by most of the players. And while you say "barely anyone cared about" it was a 15 year old game at the time. There was still plenty of global interest for that game, but if there really was no interest why did they feel the need to cut out it's legs? On a much smaller scale than SC2, Microsoft is currently pumping money into AoE 2. They don't organize anything themselves, they just fund TOs out of the community (mostly streamers, so not companies like ESL). And you know what? Those TOs STILL have to adhere to Microsofts schedule. Because wow, Microsoft doesn't want two S-Tier tournaments at the same time, practically splitting the pro-players in half and weakening the effect of each tournament. So even IF Blizzard would have been crazy enough to just throw money at multiple TOs to host their own events, all of these TOs still would have done everything aligned with Blizzards interests. You can't have the money without the say... 2. Blizzard paid what? A miniscule sum of money over 10 years leeching off the competetive and tournament scene they did absolutely nothing to build? They saw that they were finally about to make money and came to siphon off every drop they could possible get. Eliminating competition for whoever was going to pay them the most. It isn't the least bit disrespectful, more of an accurate assessment of the worth of Blizzard in esports. Hearthstone, SC2, War3, BW, OWL, have all but died or are shadows of their formerselves becuase of Blizzard's interference. SC2 probably would have not only done better without them, but would be stronger still as well.
Miniscule sum? Are you high or something? Blizzard funded WCS for years, they funded GSL right from the get-go (in part so it could even hold up against OGN/Kespa). And even after they jumped out, they still paid ESl for another two years before finally leaving. They didn't "siphon" anything. Pretty sure they lost a huge sum of cash on their entire Esport investment. BW and War3 were "hit" by the release of SC2 more than anything else...and of course the fact that you could make actual money there as a player. That was right after the first big economical bubble-burst in Esports, too. Hearthstone was never really an "Esports-game", yet Blizzard threw money at it. And Overwatch was designed mostly from the start to end up in OWL...which then of course failed in the end, but that seems more to be a problem with "Blizzard as the developer" and not "Blizzard the TO". And just a reminder, we are purely talking about "Blizzard the TO" here. And yeah, pretty sure SC2 wouldn't have done better without Blizzard money. In fact, the game would probably looked like it does today for ten years instead. So basically worse, since I can't imagine 14-year-old Maru and 15-year old Reynor jumping into SC2 if you are playing for peanuts most of the time. Especially Maru would have certainly done something different...who knows, maybe he would be in LoL now not winning Worlds.
3. Please they certainly did. They started challenging them on liscensing, and were threatening to give GOM control over broadcasting and tournaments. You are right broodwar wasn't doing great, crazy how a game that came out 15 years later and had to expansions isn't doing great right now in far less time. And that BW scene yeah it shrunk a bit, but it was due to a Korean recession moreso than anything else, not due to suddenly people not wanting to watch. And since it was largely fueled by massive companies that were shortening their budgets that was the downfall of those teams. And you're right they didn't make some massive come back because they were thwarted and killed off by moves Blizzard made.
You really should read-up on the entire thing, because it really didn't happen (as far as we publicly know) as you think. It wasn't Blizzard pummeling on poor Kespa/OGN. In fact, Kespa started first, bullying GomTV, trying to get rid of it by blocking their players to compete in their events - which was still in BroodWar btw. The only "moves" Blizzard did to destroy the old system was a)release a new game...shame on them and b)not just give in into all demands Kespa made. Not saying Blizzard was completly innocent, they certainly did come in strong, being the first who actually said "fuck this, this our game, we have the rights to everything related to it"...a thing anyone else does by now, too. 4. Nobody said only held in area where the best talent is, but they are largely located nearer to the population center. We aren't hosting crossfire tournaments here in NA. And just because CS2 has a few one offs and a rotation major local doesn't change the fact that like 85% of the events are in EU or somewhat EU centric. As for the global entities for Valorant/LoL they fully support their own structure, and because all of the participants are taken care of they can be as global as they please. Strange though they didn't have to exit LoL, oh that's right because they built it up themselves, and when they did take over, they shouldered the responsibility of carrying it through. It aren't "a few". ESL as the forerunner especially is trying to make the competition as global as possible. Sure, EU is still holding the majority, but might I remind you that the EU (not to mention Europe as a whole) alone has eight to nine times the residents of South Korea. And the fanbase here for Counterstrike is gigantic. So it makes sense. What's not making sense is hosting everything SC2-related in Korea... And was for the LoL/Valo thing...of course Riot didn't kill off LoL for Valo. For one, they are entirely different genres, so they are not competing with each other, but instead support each other. And also...Blizzard didn't kill off BW in Korea (everywhere else, again, it was dead anyway). They didn't say "Kespa has to close down everything". It just became hugely unsuistanable with SC2 being around, the economical crisis and companies in Korea probalby wanting to jump onto the new ship. 5. Again each team is different in CS2. Is faze profitable? No, they went broke and had to sell themselves from over extending. Are vitality/G2? Nope. But are Mouz/VP/Ence/Col/Heroic/Mongolz? Yup. The teams that are buying trophies are the broke ones. But there are sustainable teams, especially MOUZ who is winning in all regards. They're farming bonus sticker money, selling off players, and have a budget roster, while winning events. But that depends on how you run your team, but there certainly are avenues to be profitable in CS2 without reliance on sticker money. Pretty sure Heroic is broke af aswell. And the financial situation of MOUZ for example remains to be seen. I would say they are holding up and are not in crisis, but I personally wouldn't bet money that they are profitable to a bigger degree. But I don't want to digress into this too much further, since I honestly can't even remember why we started this particular part of the debate and how it was linked to Starcraft ._. Closing thoughts: First of all, I think Blizzard did one huge mistake...and ironically, it was the exact opposite of what you think. Blizzard tried to have the global appeal of WC3, but still wanted Korea to enjoy its highly organized "Bubble". Sadly, that might have let to them not winning on either side of the bracket. Riot did the opposite: Riot always said "fuck it Korea, you have the best players and teams, but you don't get any special treatment". Sure, Korea often gets the most slots for Worlds, but they are not hugely different compared to China or EMEA. And the LCK is paying out almost the same money as the LEC. And nobody there is complaining "buhu, the tenth placed team in Korea *might* (we honestly don't know) be better than the winnier of LEC, so unfair!". Okay, we do know, G2 would wreck the bottom half of LCK-teams, but anyway. That led to a global scene, a global appeal. EMEA-fans can enjoy their hometown teams, with amazingly produced games. And we can cheer for our times at global competitions, even when they usually get destroyed by the topdogs of Korea and China. You don't need the Proleague-Kespa-Bubble. if I had to guess, I would say you are more of a BroodWar than SC2 fan, right? And it is fine if you are pissed at the developer Blizzard, I'm not arguing there. But when it comes to supporting Esports, especially Starcraft, you are hugely unfair. And I still get the feeling you are somehow mad that Blizzard didn't release SC2 and then said "so and now Kespa gets one million bucks a year to continue to run BroodWar, because that's totally reasonable!" I get that, I was mad in 2010 aswell, when players, TOs and viewers alike run away from WC3 towards SC2. But you can't expect Blizzard to just throw away money for everything, just so that a few people are happy and get their own game supported. I'm not sure Microsoft is pumping money into AOE2 like you think. I know they work a lot with T90 and support his prize pools voluntarily, but maybe I don't know everything about the AOE2 tournament scene. If I remember a lot of their S tier events are run by individuals not even TOs and I'm not sure if there is any real support from Microsoft. As for following the rules all of them follow the rules anyway and I doubt microsoft has to say anything. Not that they couldn't, but if your main Casters at Redbull are the TOs you're trying to fuck over in that scene you're going to have a bad time. This btw is in regard to T90 and Nilli(i think spelling***) both holding their own S tier events in that space. Yes, minuscule sum. They funded the WCS for years and the GSL/GOM from the get go sure. Riot/Valve are putting on events every year, with prize pools that surpass anything Blizzard has done greatly. They also never backed down, they're still doing it right now despite spending far more money. As for OWL they collected millions in franchise fees to run an event while clipping anyone else's shot of running an event. You're claiming that Blizzard the developer and that isn't the case. It was the blizzard the TO ran their tournament into the ground. As for 14 year old Maru and 15 year old Reynor, I'm sure every little kid playing a video game is thinking about the potential esports implications of the video game he likes lol..... And it is funny there were events run without Blizzard for the longest that weren't offering "peanuts" as you put it with ZERO blizzard support. I think you read the legal portion of what happened because technically Blizzard was legally right in what they did. But they did that in order to force their hands in everything. You can pretend it was just about the legal aspect, but it wasn't. You are right though KESPA were dicks as well, but that was the way they were forced to fight the inevitable. In the end KESPA's only move at the time was to try and hold their players back, but it wasn't going to work, and giving a TO power over the game in that country was always going to lead down that road. Again I never said they should hold every SC2 match in Korea, they just didn't need to mess with the systems in place they had no part of for over a decade. And I also never said Riot killed off LOL for Valo. It was more in terms of they didn't actively try to kill of entities that existed. Also those they did harm, they basically hired to run the LoL/Valorant product. Much different than Blizzard's approach. And you're right they didn't order KESPA to close down. Just pay the liscensing fees, and don't compete with GOM ever, even though they're running something 24/7, and if you attempt to hold back your players from them, then the licensing fee will be increased, oh and whatever rules GOM wants to make up to mess with you, you'll need to follow. Heroic - Not broke, for sure a budget team, but is profitable. Just sold off the snakes and Cadian. MOUZ same to a lesser extend. The main financial line in CS in terms of individual CS teams being profitable is simply salary for the players. In general sure, I like BW more so than SC2, but that doesn't change anything really. But overall I'm more of an esports fan of many titles. I don't get how anything is unfair though. I'm not mad that Blizzard didn't give KESPA money or OSL/MSL/Proleague. I'm mad they messed up their system on purpose to kill them off. I'm mad they were leeches in esports, and it is hilarious that despite being the last ones in are the first ones out after killing off competition to leech even more out of the scene. KESPA managed to stay afloat during a recession where their finances depended on that exact same economy. Blizzard however lasted less time in esports than KESPA, while not suffering from that same type of issue lol. Best part is nobody actually needed Blizzard's support. MLG existed, Dreamhacks, IEM, PGL, ESL, NASL. I give you a broad interest in Esports, but I get the feeling you are not particularly in-depth about it, is that possible? First of all, if you look at the sponsors for any S-Tier Age of Empires 2 tournament, you will always find either Microsoft or Worlds Edge...which is still Microsoft. Microsoft literally employed Nili as "Tournament Director". He was the one managing funding and organizing the schedule...a schedule anyone who wants to get money from Microsoft. The only TO that isn't bound to this is RedBull, because...well, it is RedBull. But even THEY answer to Microsoft scheduling. Riot is putting in millions into LoL Esports because the game makes that much. SC2 never produced so much money, because it wasn't originally designed to generate revenue. Riot was revolutionary with their idea of a F2P game that still brings in millions. Do you want to know how little money SC2 made for Blizzard? Wings of Liberty alone got outperformed by a stupid looking Mount in WoW. Don't believe me? Ask one of the devs. Now imagine how freaking much money Riot generates with their skins and what not... Blizzard paid on and on for SC2, probably losing a sizeable amount of money. And then you come along "hurrdurr they should have put in more money for no reason". And yes, games before 2010 often just offered "peanuts", especially RTS. Again, teams paid that difference. Teams that ruined themselves around the economic crisis. And even those "peanuts" were debatable to be paid or not. Blizzard was legally and morally correct. The only option there was to not fight Kespa was to not release SC2 at all...well, that would have been great for the game, right? You are also incorrect that Valorant "didn't destroy anything" Before the VCT started, multiple TOs run a plethora of events. All of these events are dead now because of the VCT. And LoL was even part of Katowice once upon a time...not anymore. Now even the Saudis have to fight to even get LoL to EWC. So weird how every Developer does the exact same things Blizzard does...they just do it better. or rather, Blizzard usually wasn't ruthless enough. Heroic is broke as hell mate. Their stocks were in the shits, I think they even de-listed themselves, buying the stocks back up? Doing good in tournaments and being profitable are two very different things. Maybe SC2 didn't need Blizzards money. But equally possible no one in 2010+ invests into SC2 without Blizzard either. Because if the TO isn't putting in any money, And please remember that MLG for example started out with rather tame prizepools. Not to mention that there isn't a GSL without Blizzard money. I can promise you however, without Blizzard money, there is no global competition. There is no ESL Pro Tour. Because there wouldn't have been a scene big enough to be viable for that. You would have your Kespa-run korean tournaments, probably without an english stream, but hey, who needs viewers from outside Koreas....not that it would have been run on OGN, since they went out of business. And teams still drop out of Proleague. I mean, most ex-Proleagues even dropped out of LoL, which is much more sustainable. ]
Broad love of esports yes. Lack of knowledge, sure in some departments, but to that same sense no more than anyone else. Neither you nor I know what is in the contracts, liscensing agreements, or the technical requirements of anything that goes on. Sure, to some degree we get pieces of info, but never all of it. I mean even companies that are overall good influences in gaming/esports don't broadcast the vast majority of that information.
Again while there might have been an agreement in AOE with everyone at the request of Microsoft you don't know their entire financial involvement. Now Microsoft in this regard has actually been great in esports and they're not the leeches we've been talking about. But T90 was already running an approved hidden cup on his own w/o Microsoft, they just added to the pool because of the hype, and honestly that is amazing of them. They didn't try to stop nili and t90 from running events in order to have Microsoft Cup or give Redbull Series the advantage. As for how much some of these events got we have no clue, but the one leak wasn't even like 20%. Also Microsoft as part of their liscensing agreement be it maybe for free event could require their name plastered on the event with zero dollars contributed, but waiving a fee for holding an event. I'm not saying that is what they did because honestly Microsoft in this field as far as I can recall has been pretty stand up. I think MLG had Halo for nearly free and AOE not only has it been free, but they've also remastered and expanded the game so many times it is hard to keep track. As for scheduling again, just because someone might have been a coordinator of AOE, doesn't mean there were really even issues, especially considering how tiny AOE is. In some weird reality where Redbull tries to run their event at the same time as Hidden Cup or Apartment Cup, they'd probably be laughed off the planet.
Did they "lose" money? I mean they did their best to snipe off all the ad revenue, and licensing fees for events. Sure they funded some of it, but did they even actually lose money or pillage the bank accounts of everyone to break even in a scene where people were hosting events without them no issue for a decade? On a game series that earned them 1.2 billion +, they maybe spent 80 million at the very most back, but how much did the gain back? You claim they went broke doing it, but you have no access to their financials. And the comparison to a different title doesn't change that. Be it LoL or a WoW mount doing better. I don't remember MLG or ESL or Dreamhack or OGN/MBC crying about money, they just did better. And they didn't have the ability to squeeze out their competition.
I love how you keep it up with the hurr durr, but keep misquoting what I said in such a shitty way. Nobody said to not release SC2. And yes, not messing with KESPA would have been a good start. They could have put on their big boy pants and made a real scene out of their own work and if it were the better option they would have easily got the views and players. You indicate in some way that it would have been worse if they had fucked off, but we won't know because that isn't what happened. Meanwhile IEM and GSL and ASL still exist without Blizzard, despite them messing with everything. Imagine being so awful at what you're doing that you have to exit the space, while the people who were there before you with far less money and backing are still kicking years later, that is if you didn't outright kill them while you existed to prop up your existence. But yeah, blizzard was good for esports LOL, OWL finished, SC2 disappeared, WAR3 carried without their existence.
You mean those other massive billion dollar companies, who worked with those other companies to run their tournaments, but eventually took over, directly paying players, and those assets of the TOs to run their own event series? Crazy how those did really well keeping the best going, while Blizzard killing off the competition, to cheap out, and to back end take all profit out of everything didn't make it work. Yes, they did it better those other companies, they weren't leeching off others success coming in just to steal profit, they said let's do an even better job and hire those talents, and lets take care of our players an existence in the scene. Which is why they're still standing, despite spending so much more to do all of that.
Sorry, but you have no clue how anything goes if Blizzard didn't get involved. You cite tame prize pools, but there were events held with big prize pools with the boost to twitch and viewership that weren't assisted by Blizzard. Nor do you even know if Blizzard helped any even fund their prize pool or to what degree that happened. And you claim that they wouldn't have adapted the Korean way or something along those lines, but with dreamhacks and MLGs and IEMs and ESLs doing well they probably would have joined on board, especially at the minimal cost of having a few casters on board. But what we do know is that Blizzard made it hard for others to exist and they succeeded in that, they monopolized, and leeched off the other successful events up until no more money could be sucked out of the scene. But go on keep hyping them up for lasting less time than everyone else in the same atmosphere with a far more predatory existence than all of the rest.
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On June 28 2024 04:13 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2024 04:07 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 04:00 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:52 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:44 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:27 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:04 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 02:56 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 27 2024 04:49 Argonauta wrote:On June 27 2024 04:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
[quote]
So beating more players is more important than the quality of players beaten?
And prep tournies are inherently harder? It depends which way you look at it.
Neither has a clear answer and there are varying opinions on each.
Sure, the top players may face better prepared lesser players, thus the difference in skill can be brought closer when they play. That is hard. But it is also harder for lesser players to beat top players in a weekender tournament and win it with less prep. Serral beating Oliveira, herO, and Maru is not an easy path for anyone, especially with less time to prep. Especially especially when 1 of them is Maru.
In which world Nice and Oliveira are better SC2 players than Cure, soO, Shin and Cure?? Besides that yeah, the depth of the tournament (aka number of matches one has to play to get the title) is an important factor. Maru had 7 matches in S1 because he lost 0-2 to herO not the tournament is good or hard, you know that factordon’t you? Classic lost to Oliveira in Dalllas and current soO is just a tier 2 Zerg not even close to Oliveira. It’s no doubt Serral’s run in Dallas is much much more impressive than Maru GSL S1. That is a weird twisted logic you employ. By your logic Oliveria is the 2nd best non-korean and Stats is better than Clem. Your logic is twisted, I don’t know if Oliveira was the second best non Korean but I know he did performed much better in facing Serral than any other Terran players since IEM Katowice, he beaten Reynor 3-1 and he just beat Dark 2-1showing he is very strong in TvZ at that time. No players besides hero in GSL has given Maru so much great pressure as Oliveira given to Serral. But hero was also beaten by Serral in Dallas and Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely in a different level of other Koreans. If you think Maru is nothing but on the same level of Shin Cure ByuN Solar , and beating Maru is not a greater task than beating these players, feel free to do so I don’t care. The game has more dimensions other than measuring how much "presure" a player gives to Serral to judge their overall skill in the game. Besides, Olivera said himself that most of it its due to the familiarity he has practicing vs Serral. What I think is not that Maru is at the same level than Shin/Cure/Buyun/Solar. What I said is this: 1) The player field level experienced at Dallas by the winner is similar to the playerfield level experienced by the GSL winner. 2) Both of the winners of GSL and Dallas had a similar amount of games they had to win to achieve the title. 3) When one looks at the players that have reached the playoffs of Dallas, 6 out of 8 are players which participated in the current edition of GSL. Do you agree then that winning Dallas is more or less the same as winning this year's edition of GSL? 1. What on Earth tells you current GSL is comparable to ESL Dallas? Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely on a different level than other Koreans. Maru can’t beat himself, the strongest opponent is hero, who also lost to Serral so Maru’s GSL already lost. 2. Oliveira’s TvZ is the best or at least one of the best in the world at this second. I said he not only gave Serral much more pressure than Maru, but also beat Reynor and Dark recently. So beating Oliveira is also a great achievement than beating Cure ByuN soO etc, who had never won a single series against Serral and Dark in a really long time. 1. I see, so you treat SC2 are a rock paper scissor game between players to rank them. Ok, very reasonable. 2. You speak as if Oliveria won vs Serral, he didnt, he lost. And Oliveira regularly trades series between the players you mention. Bro It's you want to compare GSL with ESL spring, not me. I just told you Maru's GSL run is less difficult than Serral's ESL run. Well if you don't want to engage to the debate, then don't. But if you do and you tell me that Maru's GSL run was easier than Serral Dallas run, I just hard disagree. They are comparable.
There are already things to factor in beside opponents
Dallas is at an international larger stage, higher prize money, and more pressure
GSL is basically a small tournament in a small venue in Korea
People tune in to watch Serral, he is must see television, Mr box office
We all know Maru is the big fish in Korea, but outside Korea he becomes a small fish. He constantly losing to non Korean players. Remember when cyan rekted him? Lol
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France12762 Posts
On June 29 2024 00:32 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2024 04:13 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 04:07 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 04:00 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:52 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:44 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 03:27 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 28 2024 03:04 Argonauta wrote:On June 28 2024 02:56 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 27 2024 04:49 Argonauta wrote:
[quote]
In which world Nice and Oliveira are better SC2 players than Cure, soO, Shin and Cure??
Besides that yeah, the depth of the tournament (aka number of matches one has to play to get the title) is an important factor.
Maru had 7 matches in S1 because he lost 0-2 to herO not the tournament is good or hard, you know that factordon’t you? Classic lost to Oliveira in Dalllas and current soO is just a tier 2 Zerg not even close to Oliveira. It’s no doubt Serral’s run in Dallas is much much more impressive than Maru GSL S1. That is a weird twisted logic you employ. By your logic Oliveria is the 2nd best non-korean and Stats is better than Clem. Your logic is twisted, I don’t know if Oliveira was the second best non Korean but I know he did performed much better in facing Serral than any other Terran players since IEM Katowice, he beaten Reynor 3-1 and he just beat Dark 2-1showing he is very strong in TvZ at that time. No players besides hero in GSL has given Maru so much great pressure as Oliveira given to Serral. But hero was also beaten by Serral in Dallas and Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely in a different level of other Koreans. If you think Maru is nothing but on the same level of Shin Cure ByuN Solar , and beating Maru is not a greater task than beating these players, feel free to do so I don’t care. The game has more dimensions other than measuring how much "presure" a player gives to Serral to judge their overall skill in the game. Besides, Olivera said himself that most of it its due to the familiarity he has practicing vs Serral. What I think is not that Maru is at the same level than Shin/Cure/Buyun/Solar. What I said is this: 1) The player field level experienced at Dallas by the winner is similar to the playerfield level experienced by the GSL winner. 2) Both of the winners of GSL and Dallas had a similar amount of games they had to win to achieve the title. 3) When one looks at the players that have reached the playoffs of Dallas, 6 out of 8 are players which participated in the current edition of GSL. Do you agree then that winning Dallas is more or less the same as winning this year's edition of GSL? 1. What on Earth tells you current GSL is comparable to ESL Dallas? Serral has beaten Maru, who is completely on a different level than other Koreans. Maru can’t beat himself, the strongest opponent is hero, who also lost to Serral so Maru’s GSL already lost. 2. Oliveira’s TvZ is the best or at least one of the best in the world at this second. I said he not only gave Serral much more pressure than Maru, but also beat Reynor and Dark recently. So beating Oliveira is also a great achievement than beating Cure ByuN soO etc, who had never won a single series against Serral and Dark in a really long time. 1. I see, so you treat SC2 are a rock paper scissor game between players to rank them. Ok, very reasonable. 2. You speak as if Oliveria won vs Serral, he didnt, he lost. And Oliveira regularly trades series between the players you mention. Bro It's you want to compare GSL with ESL spring, not me. I just told you Maru's GSL run is less difficult than Serral's ESL run. Well if you don't want to engage to the debate, then don't. But if you do and you tell me that Maru's GSL run was easier than Serral Dallas run, I just hard disagree. They are comparable. There are already things to factor in beside opponents Dallas is at an international larger stage, higher prize money, and more pressure GSL is basically a small tournament in a small venue in Korea People tune in to watch Serral, he is must see television, Mr box office We all know Maru is the big fish in Korea, but outside Korea he becomes a small fish. He constantly losing to non Korean players. Remember when cyan rekted him? Lol
Starcraft 2 tournaments are "small fish" tournaments though, no matter international or Korea. Heck, even the biggest prizepool ever at EWC of 1m$ is small fish compared to other esport titles.
The viewership is extremely low even for the biggest events such as IEM Katowice, compared to the popular esport titles.
Difference between #1 and #2 at Dallas Spring in which Maru lost to Serral is 8k$, that's pocket money for both of them who won more than 1m$ in prizepool alone, there is not particular pressure -> you could make that argument for Katowice since Maru has yet to win a WC that isn't WESG, and there is actually a meaningful prize pool difference. But Dallas spring? It's probably more of a vacation/holidays trip in the USA for them
You can see though that the prizepool of EWC (and WESG) in the past is meaningful for the players: that's imo why we see Rogue improve at a rapid pace, he'll probably try to qualify for EWC through the Open Qualifier in early July.
I still hope to see Maru deliver a better battle vs Serral if they were to meet at EWC, Dallas final was underwhelming.
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On June 28 2024 07:41 Cactus66 wrote:
I don't know why you guys are putting so much effort into comparing Maru's GSL path vs Serral's spring path. If you wanted to judge the tournament difficulty by path you would compare Maru's GSL path to Maru's spring path. That properly shows the difficulty of the tournament to win from Maru's perspective. And the conclusion you can draw from that exercise is tournaments with Serral in them are generally harder to win than tournaments without Serral in them.
Serral will typically have the easiesr path compared to everyone else in the tournament. He's usually the top seed, but most importantly he doesn't have to play Serral.
Oh absolutely this, Maru is a heavy heavy favourite against any player not named Serral.
They're #1 and #2 players in the world and have been since 2018, but Serral has been stronger and has shown to be the more talented player, even not attending a good chunk of tournaments people consider "relevant" he still has by far the most impressive resume.
If Maru had Mvp's WoL, or Life/Innovations HOTS, I'd almost understand putting him as #1 (I wouldn't really because those expansion lasted 2 years), but he peaked at the same time Serral did, we get to watch them duke it out.
Rogue should not even be brought up for #1 and #2, when you factor chance of opportunity you will see Rogue gets dunked on so fucking much, Dark makes RO4 on premier's more often than Rogue does(!!!!!), Serral obviously has higher rate of #1, RO2, RO4, RO8 than anyone else, he's also outside of Korea which actually is hardly brought up these days, but during 2017-2020 he hardly had worthy up to par opponents for some races.
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EPT
