|
On June 25 2024 19:00 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 13:54 NoobSkills wrote:On June 25 2024 06:27 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 24 2024 22:02 lokol4890 wrote:On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote:
I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently. Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit. Can you cite when serral dominated 5 years? Winning one or two tournaments a year is not the same as dominating. Are we literally just ignoring how the other top 3 zergs (reynor, rogue, dark) since 2019 all the way through 2023 were winning a bunch of stuff? Serral literally won almost everything he touched during that spam The majority of the stuff dark and rogue won was in Korea, which Serral didn’t bother attending. And when he did go to Korea, he went 2/2 winning 2 GSLs Dark and rogue never had to go through Serral to win their championship. They had to rely on their peers to pull an upset such as rag, solar, etc. I believe only sOO and innovation won their championship by going through Serral "Dark and rouge never had to go through serral to win their championship" Sure, they got to dodge one or two talented players who MAYBE could have messed them up. Serral got to dodge the entirety of the most talented players in the game by farming far weaker scenes, which fueled his invites to those events where the worst korean at that event had a harder path to it than any of the EU/NA that could have been there. I wonder how many cutoffs he would or wouldn't have made if everyone was forced to play everyone at all events instead of getting a free bypass by playing the weaker WCS scene. Maybe nothing changes, but maybe facing top talent with a week+ of prep time would have cost him. I get not wanting to face that gauntlet and staying home and farming free money and WCS points etc. Makes sense to be honest, but I'm not sure you suddenly get upgraded to GOAT status when you were playing T-Ball while everyone else is dodging 100 MPH fastballs. This is exactly why the WCS system in its current form worked for developing players, they didn’t have to immediately be competing with a stacked Korean playerbase off the bat until/if they’re ready to make that step up. And on the flipside there is that step up, which was made. This goes both ways in that the player operating in a weaker region doesn’t get as high a standard of competition when it does come to doing battle with Korea’s best. And additionally, Serral has the best vKorean record in the game’s history despite generally only playing Korean opposition who’ve passed various qualification hurdles and not those lower down the pyramid. I like my sports comparisons even if they don’t always 100% mesh exactly. The vast majority of the world’s best basketball players are in the NBA, but if some bloke showed up who was top 1-5 in the world by most’s reckonings who never set foot in it, isn’t that arguably a bigger feat? Or as per your comparison the guy who’s not used to facing 100 MPH fastballs enters competition where he is and adapts almost immediately. I’ve said it a million times, eventually Blizz/ESL largely got the structure right for foreign players, but they and other orgs dropped the ball with Korea. No sport in the world operates without tiers of competition that lead up to the elite.
I get why the WCS and talent all over the world thing was nice. But it was also right equal money, taken away from the peak of competition to fund lower events no? But can't change the past, not sure I would even, but I'm also not sure that financial issues didn't stop some players in Korea, where the competition was in fact harder.
You are right though, he had weaker practice in those competitions, and he may have the best vKorean record in the game. But if he were held to the same standard, as those Koreans would that be true? If he had to farm his WCS points while facing off against individuals who has a week+ to practice for specifically him, could he have made it to those events in the first place? The answer is probably, but would it have been all of them? I don't think so. But you are right he did have the upper level talent to be at those big events, but so did many of those who were playing in the Korean scene who didn't make the cut due to numbers they had to get through in a harder competition.
In your NBA judgement how is that person getting there and making themselves into a top 5? Did he get to play against Santa's Elfs in the north poll league every year and get free seeding into the NBA finals? Skipping out on the regular season and the playoffs?
I think Blizzard dropped the ball with all of esports and butchered every single thing possible, but that has nothing to do with WCS or serral really. That their project, limitations, requirements not only for Korea, but also the rest of the world destroyed Blizzard esports. Yes, you do want a competitive atmosphere for building up talent. But creating top tier events with mandatory long time period of play, with a bunch of money all spread out doing that? Is paying the #20 guy in EU or NA the same money as the #20 KOR really fair? Did they all play just as hard? In other esports there are side events smaller events for competition until you're ready to be a big dog. Blizzard through amateurs in to T1 paying events and basically time locked others from having a chance because they all ran at the same time.
|
On June 22 2024 00:35 Poopi wrote:
Thanks for the interview!
I am not very surprised by the goat part, when zerg is played perfectly, there is no hole. You can't do this with terran though and/or it's usually harder to maintain that level of perfection with that race, depending on patches / maps.
I still think Rogue is underestimated by the community, it takes some INSANE talent to punch above his "theoretical" weight in so many offline bo7. Sure, he used broken things to his advantage, but he beat so many players that were better "on paper" that it's mindblowing to me
Come on guys, if we are going to say who is capable of playing a race almost perfectly and consistently, it is undoubtedly Serral.
but to say that Serral achieves what Zerg achieves because it is easier to maintain the level of consistency.... the question is based on what do you think that Zerg is easy to maintain the consistency...... because Serral is the only one Zerg player showing that level of consistency. just because 1 person does it doesn't mean everyone can...
Let's say things as they are. if Serral did not exist. MARU(yes a TERRAN PLAYER) would be dominating the scene and probably any tournament it participates in.
and for those who watched the last 8 games between MARU-SERRAL... you can see that it is not a balance problem.........
MARU would be No. 1 if Serral did not exist.....but the reality is different... there is no need to look for excuses or other readings of balance.... when there are none.
|
On June 26 2024 07:04 Gantz023 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2024 00:35 Poopi wrote:
Thanks for the interview!
I am not very surprised by the goat part, when zerg is played perfectly, there is no hole. You can't do this with terran though and/or it's usually harder to maintain that level of perfection with that race, depending on patches / maps.
I still think Rogue is underestimated by the community, it takes some INSANE talent to punch above his "theoretical" weight in so many offline bo7. Sure, he used broken things to his advantage, but he beat so many players that were better "on paper" that it's mindblowing to me Come on guys, if we are going to say who is capable of playing a race almost perfectly and consistently, it is undoubtedly Serral. but to say that Serral achieves what Zerg achieves because it is easier to maintain the level of consistency.... the question is based on what do you think that Zerg is easy to maintain the consistency...... because Serral is the only one Zerg player showing that level of consistency. just because 1 person does it doesn't mean everyone can... Let's say things as they are. if Serral did not exist. MARU(yes a TERRAN PLAYER) would be dominating the scene and probably any tournament it participates in. and for those who watched the last 8 games between MARU-SERRAL... you can see that it is not a balance problem......... MARU would be No. 1 if Serral did not exist.....but the reality is different... there is no need to look for excuses or other readings of balance.... when there are none.
Maru would be no. 1 because he already is but by the criteria Serral fans use to make Serral no. 1 (overweighting globals and under weighting Korean leagues) Rogue would be no. 1 if Serral wasn't around. Especially because Rogue lost to Serral twice in world championships. He's the heavy favorite in the Blizzcon 18 finals and is 50-50 in the Kato 22 finals with no Serral around.
Also whether or not current Maru vs Serral results has anything to do with balance (I agree their last few match results don't have much to do with balance) doesn't impact whether the game was imbalanced in the past.
|
On June 26 2024 04:57 StarcraftHistorian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 12:54 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 12:40 Cactus66 wrote:On June 25 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 03:06 Blitzball04 wrote:
Thanks for the interview
Another pro admitting Serral is the goat, yet some people crying and complaining when ESL made a verbal comment saying “Serral is the goat”
Serral is the goat has been the consensus for years now
I’ll take the opinions of pro players and casters over forum posters anyday
Yet some people still desperately trying to include Maru into the conversation is quite comical As someone who has played and practiced with/against many magic pros, I respect that there is a "feel" factor that one can only experience from personal exposure to a player. However, when it comes to being as objective as possible, I greatly prefer a data driven interpretation. When you're referring to data driven are you talking about Maru's 19-43 map record, and 4-15 match record vs Serral and 0 World Championships? Or were you more referring to the data from the specific tournaments that you decided were more important? It's good to know that, in your mind, head to head record is all that matters. It gives me a solid indication of whether or not your posts are worth reading-especially when you can't even bother to check that Maru has, in fact, won a WC event with a 200k first place prize. It is unbelievably intellectually dishonest to compare WESG to a Blizzcon or Katowice. There’s a reason the community unanimously states that Maru is lacking a world championship caliber win. Perhaps we should examine whose opinions are worth reading.
Perhaps we should examine whose Videos are Worth watching. For real do you even realize how disrespectful you are right now for an opinion article. Also the snarkyness of some people in Here is really Something Just because you disagree.
|
[/QUOTE]
Your university entry level science and stats would also tell you would need to account for all material periods, not just those that benefit the guy you want on top. Serral began winning in 2018 whereas maru was doing that since 2013. If you're trying to figure out who is the best of all time, you have to account for maru's whole trajectory, period.
Pretty sure your premise is wrong fyi. This is not a maru v. serral debate. This is a who among the population is the best of them all. That maru and serral are the last two standing is immaterial for the premise. You would account for every result each competing player individually had, then start assigning weights, and only at the end would you compare the players against each other. Your method flips the script by doing a maru v. serral debate off the top. Regardless of the method you still need to account for everyone's results, but your premise opens you up (as it happened here) to start excluding results that should not be excluded.[/QUOTE]
I agree with parts of what you're saying. But there is no assigning weights subjectively by how you perceive prestige. I attempted to give a disclaimer that others could explain this better.
I stated it first, because I wanted to make my point clear, but I'll restate it again. This whole list was Miz's opinion (which is fine, he's entitled to his opinion even though he doesn't think I'm entitled to mine).. He doesn't get to disregard Hero's opinion and say his own is more important.
His argument comes down to X period of time was more important than Y period of time and ABC tournament was more important to XYZ not based on who participated in them, but by their history. Those are not data driven conclusions.
|
On June 26 2024 06:53 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 19:00 WombaT wrote:On June 25 2024 13:54 NoobSkills wrote:On June 25 2024 06:27 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 24 2024 22:02 lokol4890 wrote:On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote:
I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently. Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit. Can you cite when serral dominated 5 years? Winning one or two tournaments a year is not the same as dominating. Are we literally just ignoring how the other top 3 zergs (reynor, rogue, dark) since 2019 all the way through 2023 were winning a bunch of stuff? Serral literally won almost everything he touched during that spam The majority of the stuff dark and rogue won was in Korea, which Serral didn’t bother attending. And when he did go to Korea, he went 2/2 winning 2 GSLs Dark and rogue never had to go through Serral to win their championship. They had to rely on their peers to pull an upset such as rag, solar, etc. I believe only sOO and innovation won their championship by going through Serral "Dark and rouge never had to go through serral to win their championship" Sure, they got to dodge one or two talented players who MAYBE could have messed them up. Serral got to dodge the entirety of the most talented players in the game by farming far weaker scenes, which fueled his invites to those events where the worst korean at that event had a harder path to it than any of the EU/NA that could have been there. I wonder how many cutoffs he would or wouldn't have made if everyone was forced to play everyone at all events instead of getting a free bypass by playing the weaker WCS scene. Maybe nothing changes, but maybe facing top talent with a week+ of prep time would have cost him. I get not wanting to face that gauntlet and staying home and farming free money and WCS points etc. Makes sense to be honest, but I'm not sure you suddenly get upgraded to GOAT status when you were playing T-Ball while everyone else is dodging 100 MPH fastballs. This is exactly why the WCS system in its current form worked for developing players, they didn’t have to immediately be competing with a stacked Korean playerbase off the bat until/if they’re ready to make that step up. And on the flipside there is that step up, which was made. This goes both ways in that the player operating in a weaker region doesn’t get as high a standard of competition when it does come to doing battle with Korea’s best. And additionally, Serral has the best vKorean record in the game’s history despite generally only playing Korean opposition who’ve passed various qualification hurdles and not those lower down the pyramid. I like my sports comparisons even if they don’t always 100% mesh exactly. The vast majority of the world’s best basketball players are in the NBA, but if some bloke showed up who was top 1-5 in the world by most’s reckonings who never set foot in it, isn’t that arguably a bigger feat? Or as per your comparison the guy who’s not used to facing 100 MPH fastballs enters competition where he is and adapts almost immediately. I’ve said it a million times, eventually Blizz/ESL largely got the structure right for foreign players, but they and other orgs dropped the ball with Korea. No sport in the world operates without tiers of competition that lead up to the elite. I get why the WCS and talent all over the world thing was nice. But it was also right equal money, taken away from the peak of competition to fund lower events no? But can't change the past, not sure I would even, but I'm also not sure that financial issues didn't stop some players in Korea, where the competition was in fact harder. You are right though, he had weaker practice in those competitions, and he may have the best vKorean record in the game. But if he were held to the same standard, as those Koreans would that be true? If he had to farm his WCS points while facing off against individuals who has a week+ to practice for specifically him, could he have made it to those events in the first place? The answer is probably, but would it have been all of them? I don't think so. But you are right he did have the upper level talent to be at those big events, but so did many of those who were playing in the Korean scene who didn't make the cut due to numbers they had to get through in a harder competition. In your NBA judgement how is that person getting there and making themselves into a top 5? Did he get to play against Santa's Elfs in the north poll league every year and get free seeding into the NBA finals? Skipping out on the regular season and the playoffs? I think Blizzard dropped the ball with all of esports and butchered every single thing possible, but that has nothing to do with WCS or serral really. That their project, limitations, requirements not only for Korea, but also the rest of the world destroyed Blizzard esports. Yes, you do want a competitive atmosphere for building up talent. But creating top tier events with mandatory long time period of play, with a bunch of money all spread out doing that? Is paying the #20 guy in EU or NA the same money as the #20 KOR really fair? Did they all play just as hard? In other esports there are side events smaller events for competition until you're ready to be a big dog. Blizzard through amateurs in to T1 paying events and basically time locked others from having a chance because they all ran at the same time.
Sorry, but really, what are you talking about?
First of all: Yes, it is completly natural to take away money from the top and award it to the bottom. Because if you only run top-heavy competitions, everyone else will drop out. That principle is true on every level. Very basic example: Maybe tournaments should only give out money to the winner? Because clearly that person worked and played harder than anyone else, so why should they also get money?
Answer for that is obvious: You need money to get into the career. Because most players who start out the game won't be Maru and win tournaments with 14. And they won't be Serral and dominate the world as soon as they go full-time. But how do you justify going (semi-)pro with 18-20 after school? You justify it by getting money. You either get money because there are competitions for your "entry level" or because teams like in Proleague pay you.
If you don't do that, one of two things happen:
1)Players go to college and don't play fulltime, because they need a career. But that naturally translates in worth results.
2)Players just don't go pro at all.
In many sports, there are lower leagues, lower tournaments. These tournaments usually don't pay for themselves, but are financed by the S-Tier competition pumping in money. That is money "taken away" from better players, but it is necessary to ensure that people can get into the sports. This is especially important in SC2, since there is no guarantee that there will be any money. Last year for example there was a realistic chance that neither GSL nor EPT would continue in 2024.
The region-lock was necessary to develop the talent in the world and let it get caught up. Which was also paying tribute to the fact that the key-audience is not in Korea.
Now about "Blizzard messed up *hurrdurr*" --> No, they didn't? Atleast not in the way you think. They awarded money towards their own playing system, but didn't go into competition with Afreeca and GSL. And yet they paid a large sum of GSL prizepool. Even though Afreeca/GSL themselves did an extremly shitty job utilizing their actual audience, aka. foreign watchers. That is something they apparently only noticed last year. And it's not like Koreans didn't still get hefty perks compared to the rest of the world (e.g. eight BlizzCon slots vs. eight for the entire world). That was a clear sign to respect the tremendously strong playerbase in Korea.
If the region-lock wasn't a thing, I'm pretty sure the korean scene would look the same as it does today, maybe even worse. But the entire rest of the world would definetly look tremendously worse. We might not even have gotten a Serral and a Reynor and a Clem. But without these top-dogs, ESL would probably also not invest anymore. Why invest in a game that isn't remotely present in your key-audience?
|
Northern Ireland24504 Posts
On June 26 2024 06:53 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 19:00 WombaT wrote:On June 25 2024 13:54 NoobSkills wrote:On June 25 2024 06:27 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 24 2024 22:02 lokol4890 wrote:On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote:
I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently. Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit. Can you cite when serral dominated 5 years? Winning one or two tournaments a year is not the same as dominating. Are we literally just ignoring how the other top 3 zergs (reynor, rogue, dark) since 2019 all the way through 2023 were winning a bunch of stuff? Serral literally won almost everything he touched during that spam The majority of the stuff dark and rogue won was in Korea, which Serral didn’t bother attending. And when he did go to Korea, he went 2/2 winning 2 GSLs Dark and rogue never had to go through Serral to win their championship. They had to rely on their peers to pull an upset such as rag, solar, etc. I believe only sOO and innovation won their championship by going through Serral "Dark and rouge never had to go through serral to win their championship" Sure, they got to dodge one or two talented players who MAYBE could have messed them up. Serral got to dodge the entirety of the most talented players in the game by farming far weaker scenes, which fueled his invites to those events where the worst korean at that event had a harder path to it than any of the EU/NA that could have been there. I wonder how many cutoffs he would or wouldn't have made if everyone was forced to play everyone at all events instead of getting a free bypass by playing the weaker WCS scene. Maybe nothing changes, but maybe facing top talent with a week+ of prep time would have cost him. I get not wanting to face that gauntlet and staying home and farming free money and WCS points etc. Makes sense to be honest, but I'm not sure you suddenly get upgraded to GOAT status when you were playing T-Ball while everyone else is dodging 100 MPH fastballs. This is exactly why the WCS system in its current form worked for developing players, they didn’t have to immediately be competing with a stacked Korean playerbase off the bat until/if they’re ready to make that step up. And on the flipside there is that step up, which was made. This goes both ways in that the player operating in a weaker region doesn’t get as high a standard of competition when it does come to doing battle with Korea’s best. And additionally, Serral has the best vKorean record in the game’s history despite generally only playing Korean opposition who’ve passed various qualification hurdles and not those lower down the pyramid. I like my sports comparisons even if they don’t always 100% mesh exactly. The vast majority of the world’s best basketball players are in the NBA, but if some bloke showed up who was top 1-5 in the world by most’s reckonings who never set foot in it, isn’t that arguably a bigger feat? Or as per your comparison the guy who’s not used to facing 100 MPH fastballs enters competition where he is and adapts almost immediately. I’ve said it a million times, eventually Blizz/ESL largely got the structure right for foreign players, but they and other orgs dropped the ball with Korea. No sport in the world operates without tiers of competition that lead up to the elite. I get why the WCS and talent all over the world thing was nice. But it was also right equal money, taken away from the peak of competition to fund lower events no? But can't change the past, not sure I would even, but I'm also not sure that financial issues didn't stop some players in Korea, where the competition was in fact harder. You are right though, he had weaker practice in those competitions, and he may have the best vKorean record in the game. But if he were held to the same standard, as those Koreans would that be true? If he had to farm his WCS points while facing off against individuals who has a week+ to practice for specifically him, could he have made it to those events in the first place? The answer is probably, but would it have been all of them? I don't think so. But you are right he did have the upper level talent to be at those big events, but so did many of those who were playing in the Korean scene who didn't make the cut due to numbers they had to get through in a harder competition. In your NBA judgement how is that person getting there and making themselves into a top 5? Did he get to play against Santa's Elfs in the north poll league every year and get free seeding into the NBA finals? Skipping out on the regular season and the playoffs? I think Blizzard dropped the ball with all of esports and butchered every single thing possible, but that has nothing to do with WCS or serral really. That their project, limitations, requirements not only for Korea, but also the rest of the world destroyed Blizzard esports. Yes, you do want a competitive atmosphere for building up talent. But creating top tier events with mandatory long time period of play, with a bunch of money all spread out doing that? Is paying the #20 guy in EU or NA the same money as the #20 KOR really fair? Did they all play just as hard? In other esports there are side events smaller events for competition until you're ready to be a big dog. Blizzard through amateurs in to T1 paying events and basically time locked others from having a chance because they all ran at the same time.
I didn’t like the WCS system when it wasn’t region locked, you still had the issue of Koreans just showing up for those tournaments and not really developing the regions.
I was always much more in favour of a soft lock, and to this day. If a player (Polt being a great example) is making his life in another region, they’ll be playing consistently with players there and (hopefully) raising the level overall. Drop the prize pool versus Korea too by all means
One of many Blizz mistakes IMO, I prefer that by far to a hard region lock, and I think the window to really salvage Kr has been passed
That said I mean Kespa made a ton of mistakes, the scene when they arrived was as fragmented as it ever was and they never really tailored their product to where the viewership was.
|
United States1807 Posts
On June 26 2024 07:58 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2024 04:57 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On June 25 2024 12:54 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 12:40 Cactus66 wrote:On June 25 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 03:06 Blitzball04 wrote:
Thanks for the interview
Another pro admitting Serral is the goat, yet some people crying and complaining when ESL made a verbal comment saying “Serral is the goat”
Serral is the goat has been the consensus for years now
I’ll take the opinions of pro players and casters over forum posters anyday
Yet some people still desperately trying to include Maru into the conversation is quite comical As someone who has played and practiced with/against many magic pros, I respect that there is a "feel" factor that one can only experience from personal exposure to a player. However, when it comes to being as objective as possible, I greatly prefer a data driven interpretation. When you're referring to data driven are you talking about Maru's 19-43 map record, and 4-15 match record vs Serral and 0 World Championships? Or were you more referring to the data from the specific tournaments that you decided were more important? It's good to know that, in your mind, head to head record is all that matters. It gives me a solid indication of whether or not your posts are worth reading-especially when you can't even bother to check that Maru has, in fact, won a WC event with a 200k first place prize. It is unbelievably intellectually dishonest to compare WESG to a Blizzcon or Katowice. There’s a reason the community unanimously states that Maru is lacking a world championship caliber win. Perhaps we should examine whose opinions are worth reading. Perhaps we should examine whose Videos are Worth watching. For real do you even realize how disrespectful you are right now for an opinion article. Also the snarkyness of some people in Here is really Something Just because you disagree.
It's worth noting that the main event of WESG could never be confused with IEM Katowice, but the qualifiers compare reasonably to the 8/8 split era of the WCS World Championships (2016 onwards). Maru had to beat sOs, Solar and Dark in the qualifiers, all three of which had made the finals of either SSL or Code S since the launch of LotV-with the latter two appearing more than once (he also beat Dark in the main event. Compare that to Serral's win at WCS 2018, where he had to beat sOs, Dark, Rogue and Stats to win, and it doesn't look bad on paper. The circumstances are obviously different, but every pro in Korea (and across the world) played in those qualifiers and I can assure you with all the money on the line. Serral's run was way more impressive, but you can't get a holistic view of WESG without looking at the qualifiers.
I've said numerous times that I don't have a side in this argument. Maru and Serral have pretty much locked up the top 2 spots all time at this point and there are reasonably cases for either being first/second. I am a stickler for using the correct terminology, however, and if someone says he never won a "World Championship", he certainly did since the name of the event "World Electronic Sports games" is meant to evoke that "World Championship". It's also listed as a premier event in liquipedia so, while the event is obviously not a 1 to 1 comparison to IEM or WCS (mind you there are some years where the format of those events made them far easier to win than in other years) it has a prize pool and name worthy of a second tier WC.
|
On June 26 2024 07:58 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2024 04:57 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On June 25 2024 12:54 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 12:40 Cactus66 wrote:On June 25 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 03:06 Blitzball04 wrote:
Thanks for the interview
Another pro admitting Serral is the goat, yet some people crying and complaining when ESL made a verbal comment saying “Serral is the goat”
Serral is the goat has been the consensus for years now
I’ll take the opinions of pro players and casters over forum posters anyday
Yet some people still desperately trying to include Maru into the conversation is quite comical As someone who has played and practiced with/against many magic pros, I respect that there is a "feel" factor that one can only experience from personal exposure to a player. However, when it comes to being as objective as possible, I greatly prefer a data driven interpretation. When you're referring to data driven are you talking about Maru's 19-43 map record, and 4-15 match record vs Serral and 0 World Championships? Or were you more referring to the data from the specific tournaments that you decided were more important? It's good to know that, in your mind, head to head record is all that matters. It gives me a solid indication of whether or not your posts are worth reading-especially when you can't even bother to check that Maru has, in fact, won a WC event with a 200k first place prize. It is unbelievably intellectually dishonest to compare WESG to a Blizzcon or Katowice. There’s a reason the community unanimously states that Maru is lacking a world championship caliber win. Perhaps we should examine whose opinions are worth reading. Perhaps we should examine whose Videos are Worth watching. For real do you even realize how disrespectful you are right now for an opinion article. Also the snarkyness of some people in Here is really Something Just because you disagree.
It’s ALMOST as if I threw the same words that were used back at them. Who decided anyone in this thread was the arbiter of whose opinions are worth something?
If you don’t want to watch my videos, then I guess you shouldn’t.
|
On June 26 2024 08:28 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2024 07:58 darklycid wrote:On June 26 2024 04:57 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On June 25 2024 12:54 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 12:40 Cactus66 wrote:On June 25 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 03:06 Blitzball04 wrote:
Thanks for the interview
Another pro admitting Serral is the goat, yet some people crying and complaining when ESL made a verbal comment saying “Serral is the goat”
Serral is the goat has been the consensus for years now
I’ll take the opinions of pro players and casters over forum posters anyday
Yet some people still desperately trying to include Maru into the conversation is quite comical As someone who has played and practiced with/against many magic pros, I respect that there is a "feel" factor that one can only experience from personal exposure to a player. However, when it comes to being as objective as possible, I greatly prefer a data driven interpretation. When you're referring to data driven are you talking about Maru's 19-43 map record, and 4-15 match record vs Serral and 0 World Championships? Or were you more referring to the data from the specific tournaments that you decided were more important? It's good to know that, in your mind, head to head record is all that matters. It gives me a solid indication of whether or not your posts are worth reading-especially when you can't even bother to check that Maru has, in fact, won a WC event with a 200k first place prize. It is unbelievably intellectually dishonest to compare WESG to a Blizzcon or Katowice. There’s a reason the community unanimously states that Maru is lacking a world championship caliber win. Perhaps we should examine whose opinions are worth reading. Perhaps we should examine whose Videos are Worth watching. For real do you even realize how disrespectful you are right now for an opinion article. Also the snarkyness of some people in Here is really Something Just because you disagree. It's worth noting that the main event of WESG could never be confused with IEM Katowice, but the qualifiers compare reasonably to the 8/8 split era of the WCS World Championships (2016 onwards). Maru had to beat sOs, Solar and Dark in the qualifiers, all three of which had made the finals of either SSL or Code S since the launch of LotV-with the latter two appearing more than once (he also beat Dark in the main event. Compare that to Serral's win at WCS 2018, where he had to beat sOs, Dark, Rogue and Stats to win, and it doesn't look bad on paper. The circumstances are obviously different, but every pro in Korea (and across the world) played in those qualifiers and I can assure you with all the money on the line. Serral's run was way more impressive, but you can't get a holistic view of WESG without looking at the qualifiers. I've said numerous times that I don't have a side in this argument. Maru and Serral have pretty much locked up the top 2 spots all time at this point and there are reasonably cases for either being first/second. I am a stickler for using the correct terminology, however, and if someone says he never won a "World Championship", he certainly did since the name of the event "World Electronic Sports games" is meant to evoke that "World Championship". It's also listed as a premier event in liquipedia so, while the event is obviously not a 1 to 1 comparison to IEM or WCS (mind you there are some years where the format of those events made them far easier to win than in other years) it has a prize pool and name worthy of a second tier WC.
It's not a world championship, simply because it was never officially a world championship. Blizzard didn't label it a WC the way WCS is (or Katowice, since Blizzard was working directly with ESL and at a point officially announced they were passing things over to ESL to continue the scene, so by extension if ESL labels it a WC then it is the official WC).
If there was a WCG in 2024 with SC2, then would you call that a WC because it has "world" in its title? Or the Global Starcraft 2 League since it has Global in its name? What about a small tournament that decides to use "world championship" in its name, of course not right? It would be one thing to call WESG a world championship in the casual sense of the term. But it would be intellectually dishonest, in the context that you tried to argue that Maru did have a WC when we all know that the hole in Maru's resume is that he specifically lacks a WCS/Katowice (when they are officially a WC).
A WC-tier event, sure, a description you've defined in your articles and have used often, but not an official world championship.
Otherwise, we could call the Katowice that Serral just won a WC (or Reynor's Gamers8 win) just because it was the finale of a circuit that involves qualifiers from across the world (world championship) just like WESG. But it's not because it's not the official WC this year.
I know you often say that people's opinions can go to Serral or Maru being the GOAT and you think either are valid. But at the same time, you dismiss people's opinions in a disrespectful manner when they say Serral is the GOAT, as you did with herO in this thread (though that was fine and inoffensive to me, there was no particularly condescending language), and many posters in many threads, often citing reasons such as people don't have the same data as you have, or that they're committing revisionist history, as if your way of interpreting data is more correct than others. It doesn't line up.
On June 26 2024 07:58 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2024 04:57 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On June 25 2024 12:54 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 12:40 Cactus66 wrote:On June 25 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 03:06 Blitzball04 wrote:
Thanks for the interview
Another pro admitting Serral is the goat, yet some people crying and complaining when ESL made a verbal comment saying “Serral is the goat”
Serral is the goat has been the consensus for years now
I’ll take the opinions of pro players and casters over forum posters anyday
Yet some people still desperately trying to include Maru into the conversation is quite comical As someone who has played and practiced with/against many magic pros, I respect that there is a "feel" factor that one can only experience from personal exposure to a player. However, when it comes to being as objective as possible, I greatly prefer a data driven interpretation. When you're referring to data driven are you talking about Maru's 19-43 map record, and 4-15 match record vs Serral and 0 World Championships? Or were you more referring to the data from the specific tournaments that you decided were more important? It's good to know that, in your mind, head to head record is all that matters. It gives me a solid indication of whether or not your posts are worth reading-especially when you can't even bother to check that Maru has, in fact, won a WC event with a 200k first place prize. It is unbelievably intellectually dishonest to compare WESG to a Blizzcon or Katowice. There’s a reason the community unanimously states that Maru is lacking a world championship caliber win. Perhaps we should examine whose opinions are worth reading. Perhaps we should examine whose Videos are Worth watching. For real do you even realize how disrespectful you are right now for an opinion article. Also the snarkyness of some people in Here is really Something Just because you disagree.
I don't stand for snarkiness and toxicity, but you're pointing at the wrong person. Miz fires shots all the time and brings the snark to a maximum when it comes to responding to people sharing their opinions, even when those opinions aren't made in response to his articles or his posts. This as well as the overly authoritative tone/language in the articles and his posts in other threads has resulted in discourse about GOATs to be more heated than it needs to be and is just inviting others to feel uncomfortable. It would indeed be nice however if everyone turned the snark down and just remembered that we all post here because we love the same thing.
|
On June 25 2024 12:54 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 12:40 Cactus66 wrote:On June 25 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 03:06 Blitzball04 wrote:
Thanks for the interview
Another pro admitting Serral is the goat, yet some people crying and complaining when ESL made a verbal comment saying “Serral is the goat”
Serral is the goat has been the consensus for years now
I’ll take the opinions of pro players and casters over forum posters anyday
Yet some people still desperately trying to include Maru into the conversation is quite comical As someone who has played and practiced with/against many magic pros, I respect that there is a "feel" factor that one can only experience from personal exposure to a player. However, when it comes to being as objective as possible, I greatly prefer a data driven interpretation. When you're referring to data driven are you talking about Maru's 19-43 map record, and 4-15 match record vs Serral and 0 World Championships? Or were you more referring to the data from the specific tournaments that you decided were more important? It's good to know that, in your mind, head to head record is all that matters. It gives me a solid indication of whether or not your posts are worth reading-especially when you can't even bother to check that Maru has, in fact, won a WC event with a 200k first place prize.
Counting WESG as a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP is insane
|
On June 26 2024 09:10 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2024 12:54 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 12:40 Cactus66 wrote:On June 25 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 03:06 Blitzball04 wrote:
Thanks for the interview
Another pro admitting Serral is the goat, yet some people crying and complaining when ESL made a verbal comment saying “Serral is the goat”
Serral is the goat has been the consensus for years now
I’ll take the opinions of pro players and casters over forum posters anyday
Yet some people still desperately trying to include Maru into the conversation is quite comical As someone who has played and practiced with/against many magic pros, I respect that there is a "feel" factor that one can only experience from personal exposure to a player. However, when it comes to being as objective as possible, I greatly prefer a data driven interpretation. When you're referring to data driven are you talking about Maru's 19-43 map record, and 4-15 match record vs Serral and 0 World Championships? Or were you more referring to the data from the specific tournaments that you decided were more important? It's good to know that, in your mind, head to head record is all that matters. It gives me a solid indication of whether or not your posts are worth reading-especially when you can't even bother to check that Maru has, in fact, won a WC event with a 200k first place prize. Counting WESG as a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP is insane
Come on dude, they called it a World Championship so obviously it is.
|
On June 26 2024 08:28 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2024 07:58 darklycid wrote:On June 26 2024 04:57 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On June 25 2024 12:54 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 12:40 Cactus66 wrote:On June 25 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 03:06 Blitzball04 wrote:
Thanks for the interview
Another pro admitting Serral is the goat, yet some people crying and complaining when ESL made a verbal comment saying “Serral is the goat”
Serral is the goat has been the consensus for years now
I’ll take the opinions of pro players and casters over forum posters anyday
Yet some people still desperately trying to include Maru into the conversation is quite comical As someone who has played and practiced with/against many magic pros, I respect that there is a "feel" factor that one can only experience from personal exposure to a player. However, when it comes to being as objective as possible, I greatly prefer a data driven interpretation. When you're referring to data driven are you talking about Maru's 19-43 map record, and 4-15 match record vs Serral and 0 World Championships? Or were you more referring to the data from the specific tournaments that you decided were more important? It's good to know that, in your mind, head to head record is all that matters. It gives me a solid indication of whether or not your posts are worth reading-especially when you can't even bother to check that Maru has, in fact, won a WC event with a 200k first place prize. It is unbelievably intellectually dishonest to compare WESG to a Blizzcon or Katowice. There’s a reason the community unanimously states that Maru is lacking a world championship caliber win. Perhaps we should examine whose opinions are worth reading. Perhaps we should examine whose Videos are Worth watching. For real do you even realize how disrespectful you are right now for an opinion article. Also the snarkyness of some people in Here is really Something Just because you disagree. It's worth noting that the main event of WESG could never be confused with IEM Katowice, but the qualifiers compare reasonably to the 8/8 split era of the WCS World Championships (2016 onwards). Maru had to beat sOs, Solar and Dark in the qualifiers, all three of which had made the finals of either SSL or Code S since the launch of LotV-with the latter two appearing more than once (he also beat Dark in the main event. Compare that to Serral's win at WCS 2018, where he had to beat sOs, Dark, Rogue and Stats to win, and it doesn't look bad on paper. The circumstances are obviously different, but every pro in Korea (and across the world) played in those qualifiers and I can assure you with all the money on the line. Serral's run was way more impressive, but you can't get a holistic view of WESG without looking at the qualifiers. I've said numerous times that I don't have a side in this argument. Maru and Serral have pretty much locked up the top 2 spots all time at this point and there are reasonably cases for either being first/second. I am a stickler for using the correct terminology, however, and if someone says he never won a "World Championship", he certainly did since the name of the event "World Electronic Sports games" is meant to evoke that "World Championship". It's also listed as a premier event in liquipedia so, while the event is obviously not a 1 to 1 comparison to IEM or WCS (mind you there are some years where the format of those events made them far easier to win than in other years) it has a prize pool and name worthy of a second tier WC.
You mean best of 1 qualifier in the first round and best of 3 in the second round? When he came to Asia-pacific qualifier stage he lost 0-3 to Classic and 2-3 to Oliveira and went to main event as the 4th place, do you think this is a great performance?
|
On June 26 2024 09:16 StarcraftHistorian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2024 09:10 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 25 2024 12:54 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 12:40 Cactus66 wrote:On June 25 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 03:06 Blitzball04 wrote:
Thanks for the interview
Another pro admitting Serral is the goat, yet some people crying and complaining when ESL made a verbal comment saying “Serral is the goat”
Serral is the goat has been the consensus for years now
I’ll take the opinions of pro players and casters over forum posters anyday
Yet some people still desperately trying to include Maru into the conversation is quite comical As someone who has played and practiced with/against many magic pros, I respect that there is a "feel" factor that one can only experience from personal exposure to a player. However, when it comes to being as objective as possible, I greatly prefer a data driven interpretation. When you're referring to data driven are you talking about Maru's 19-43 map record, and 4-15 match record vs Serral and 0 World Championships? Or were you more referring to the data from the specific tournaments that you decided were more important? It's good to know that, in your mind, head to head record is all that matters. It gives me a solid indication of whether or not your posts are worth reading-especially when you can't even bother to check that Maru has, in fact, won a WC event with a 200k first place prize. Counting WESG as a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP is insane Come on dude, they called it a World Championship so obviously it is.
Man, what can I say
|
On June 23 2024 09:55 radracer wrote:
A lot of the time modern sports players say someone from their era (Or the one right before them, that they watched growing up) is the goat, even against the common opinions of past eras. Some people think Kareem is still the GOAT, some Jordan, Kobe got it during his era, LeBron, etc. A current player saying the best peer in his era is the GOAT is not uncommon at all.
Imagine Serral and Maru retire today, do you think the players like herO will call Clem as goat?
|
United States33234 Posts
On June 26 2024 08:13 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2024 06:53 NoobSkills wrote:On June 25 2024 19:00 WombaT wrote:On June 25 2024 13:54 NoobSkills wrote:On June 25 2024 06:27 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 24 2024 22:02 lokol4890 wrote:On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2024 04:52 Cactus66 wrote:
I get the impression from the pros they don't think it's much of a goat debate. Usually a bit of a smirk or laugh when describing how it's just different having to play serral. At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again. IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently. Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit. Can you cite when serral dominated 5 years? Winning one or two tournaments a year is not the same as dominating. Are we literally just ignoring how the other top 3 zergs (reynor, rogue, dark) since 2019 all the way through 2023 were winning a bunch of stuff? Serral literally won almost everything he touched during that spam The majority of the stuff dark and rogue won was in Korea, which Serral didn’t bother attending. And when he did go to Korea, he went 2/2 winning 2 GSLs Dark and rogue never had to go through Serral to win their championship. They had to rely on their peers to pull an upset such as rag, solar, etc. I believe only sOO and innovation won their championship by going through Serral "Dark and rouge never had to go through serral to win their championship" Sure, they got to dodge one or two talented players who MAYBE could have messed them up. Serral got to dodge the entirety of the most talented players in the game by farming far weaker scenes, which fueled his invites to those events where the worst korean at that event had a harder path to it than any of the EU/NA that could have been there. I wonder how many cutoffs he would or wouldn't have made if everyone was forced to play everyone at all events instead of getting a free bypass by playing the weaker WCS scene. Maybe nothing changes, but maybe facing top talent with a week+ of prep time would have cost him. I get not wanting to face that gauntlet and staying home and farming free money and WCS points etc. Makes sense to be honest, but I'm not sure you suddenly get upgraded to GOAT status when you were playing T-Ball while everyone else is dodging 100 MPH fastballs. This is exactly why the WCS system in its current form worked for developing players, they didn’t have to immediately be competing with a stacked Korean playerbase off the bat until/if they’re ready to make that step up. And on the flipside there is that step up, which was made. This goes both ways in that the player operating in a weaker region doesn’t get as high a standard of competition when it does come to doing battle with Korea’s best. And additionally, Serral has the best vKorean record in the game’s history despite generally only playing Korean opposition who’ve passed various qualification hurdles and not those lower down the pyramid. I like my sports comparisons even if they don’t always 100% mesh exactly. The vast majority of the world’s best basketball players are in the NBA, but if some bloke showed up who was top 1-5 in the world by most’s reckonings who never set foot in it, isn’t that arguably a bigger feat? Or as per your comparison the guy who’s not used to facing 100 MPH fastballs enters competition where he is and adapts almost immediately. I’ve said it a million times, eventually Blizz/ESL largely got the structure right for foreign players, but they and other orgs dropped the ball with Korea. No sport in the world operates without tiers of competition that lead up to the elite. I get why the WCS and talent all over the world thing was nice. But it was also right equal money, taken away from the peak of competition to fund lower events no? But can't change the past, not sure I would even, but I'm also not sure that financial issues didn't stop some players in Korea, where the competition was in fact harder. You are right though, he had weaker practice in those competitions, and he may have the best vKorean record in the game. But if he were held to the same standard, as those Koreans would that be true? If he had to farm his WCS points while facing off against individuals who has a week+ to practice for specifically him, could he have made it to those events in the first place? The answer is probably, but would it have been all of them? I don't think so. But you are right he did have the upper level talent to be at those big events, but so did many of those who were playing in the Korean scene who didn't make the cut due to numbers they had to get through in a harder competition. In your NBA judgement how is that person getting there and making themselves into a top 5? Did he get to play against Santa's Elfs in the north poll league every year and get free seeding into the NBA finals? Skipping out on the regular season and the playoffs? I think Blizzard dropped the ball with all of esports and butchered every single thing possible, but that has nothing to do with WCS or serral really. That their project, limitations, requirements not only for Korea, but also the rest of the world destroyed Blizzard esports. Yes, you do want a competitive atmosphere for building up talent. But creating top tier events with mandatory long time period of play, with a bunch of money all spread out doing that? Is paying the #20 guy in EU or NA the same money as the #20 KOR really fair? Did they all play just as hard? In other esports there are side events smaller events for competition until you're ready to be a big dog. Blizzard through amateurs in to T1 paying events and basically time locked others from having a chance because they all ran at the same time. I didn’t like the WCS system when it wasn’t region locked, you still had the issue of Koreans just showing up for those tournaments and not really developing the regions. I was always much more in favour of a soft lock, and to this day. If a player (Polt being a great example) is making his life in another region, they’ll be playing consistently with players there and (hopefully) raising the level overall. Drop the prize pool versus Korea too by all means One of many Blizz mistakes IMO, I prefer that by far to a hard region lock, and I think the window to really salvage Kr has been passed That said I mean Kespa made a ton of mistakes, the scene when they arrived was as fragmented as it ever was and they never really tailored their product to where the viewership was.
I actually don't think WCS and region-locking helped 'grow' players that much. SC2's tournament infrastructure is a pretty high-efficiency meritocracy, and players rise to their appropriate level of competition almost instantly (ironically, early WoL GSL had a horrendous gating system that delayed the rise of talent).
Serral, Clem, and Reynor achieved very little tournament success when they were part-timers/students in the region-lock WCS system, so they weren't playing for money or career. They were just hobbyists having fun competing; there was no need to 'protect' them from Koreans. Once they actually DID decide to go full-time, they rapidly became championship-level players because they had the foundational talent.
Unless Clem, Reynor, or Serral explicitly say their parents would never have let them give full-time SC2 a try without region-locked WCS, I'm very much inclined to believe that region-lock had little effect on their success.
|
On June 26 2024 08:37 StarcraftHistorian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2024 07:58 darklycid wrote:On June 26 2024 04:57 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On June 25 2024 12:54 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 12:40 Cactus66 wrote:On June 25 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 25 2024 03:06 Blitzball04 wrote:
Thanks for the interview
Another pro admitting Serral is the goat, yet some people crying and complaining when ESL made a verbal comment saying “Serral is the goat”
Serral is the goat has been the consensus for years now
I’ll take the opinions of pro players and casters over forum posters anyday
Yet some people still desperately trying to include Maru into the conversation is quite comical As someone who has played and practiced with/against many magic pros, I respect that there is a "feel" factor that one can only experience from personal exposure to a player. However, when it comes to being as objective as possible, I greatly prefer a data driven interpretation. When you're referring to data driven are you talking about Maru's 19-43 map record, and 4-15 match record vs Serral and 0 World Championships? Or were you more referring to the data from the specific tournaments that you decided were more important? It's good to know that, in your mind, head to head record is all that matters. It gives me a solid indication of whether or not your posts are worth reading-especially when you can't even bother to check that Maru has, in fact, won a WC event with a 200k first place prize. It is unbelievably intellectually dishonest to compare WESG to a Blizzcon or Katowice. There’s a reason the community unanimously states that Maru is lacking a world championship caliber win. Perhaps we should examine whose opinions are worth reading. Perhaps we should examine whose Videos are Worth watching. For real do you even realize how disrespectful you are right now for an opinion article. Also the snarkyness of some people in Here is really Something Just because you disagree. It’s ALMOST as if I threw the same words that were used back at them. Who decided anyone in this thread was the arbiter of whose opinions are worth something? If you don’t want to watch my videos, then I guess you shouldn’t.
You are almost there with getting the Point, soon you'll get it.
|
United States1807 Posts
I know it's not necessary, but I do apologize to those I'm arguing with just for the sake of arguing. I'm in the midst of a manic episode and it's definitely spilled into the discussion. It's good that there is room for conversation on these topics and it was good to see an interview with herO. I recognize I'm not contributing in any positive way so I'll step back for a bit.
|
Northern Ireland24504 Posts
On June 26 2024 09:53 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2024 08:13 WombaT wrote:On June 26 2024 06:53 NoobSkills wrote:On June 25 2024 19:00 WombaT wrote:On June 25 2024 13:54 NoobSkills wrote:On June 25 2024 06:27 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 24 2024 22:02 lokol4890 wrote:On June 24 2024 20:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 24 2024 19:46 ejozl wrote:On June 23 2024 01:27 WombaT wrote:
[quote]
At least these days, there is the ‘all time’ part of course
I’d give herO at least, if not better than 50/50 shot against any other player in PvZ right now, and basically a 0% if it’s Serral
While his ZvT is good enough to sweep Clem and Maru at Katowice, or beat an on-fire Oliveira and sweep Maru recently, his ZvP is somehow even better again.
IMO the single best matchup any player has had in SC2. A few years ago Zerg was just generally dunking on Protoss so Serral doing so wasn’t atypical, but he’s kept that almost invincibility while his peers no longer have it I'm pretty sure herO would've put up a better fight against Serral than Maru. ... ... whereas Dark, Reynor and Rogue could go on a domination spree similar to Serral Gonna put a big citation needed on these statements. When Serral and herO last played, Serral completely crushed him. His army movement and understanding of where he was in the game and on the map was just better, consistently. Those three Zergs have all had some high peaks, but none of them have ever kept it looking consistent like Serral has. They may dominate a tournament, maybe two in Rogue's case, but not a year, let alone five or six in a row. Further, they had those peaks before a substantial weakening of banelings, which doesn't seem to have affected Serral the least bit. Can you cite when serral dominated 5 years? Winning one or two tournaments a year is not the same as dominating. Are we literally just ignoring how the other top 3 zergs (reynor, rogue, dark) since 2019 all the way through 2023 were winning a bunch of stuff? Serral literally won almost everything he touched during that spam The majority of the stuff dark and rogue won was in Korea, which Serral didn’t bother attending. And when he did go to Korea, he went 2/2 winning 2 GSLs Dark and rogue never had to go through Serral to win their championship. They had to rely on their peers to pull an upset such as rag, solar, etc. I believe only sOO and innovation won their championship by going through Serral "Dark and rouge never had to go through serral to win their championship" Sure, they got to dodge one or two talented players who MAYBE could have messed them up. Serral got to dodge the entirety of the most talented players in the game by farming far weaker scenes, which fueled his invites to those events where the worst korean at that event had a harder path to it than any of the EU/NA that could have been there. I wonder how many cutoffs he would or wouldn't have made if everyone was forced to play everyone at all events instead of getting a free bypass by playing the weaker WCS scene. Maybe nothing changes, but maybe facing top talent with a week+ of prep time would have cost him. I get not wanting to face that gauntlet and staying home and farming free money and WCS points etc. Makes sense to be honest, but I'm not sure you suddenly get upgraded to GOAT status when you were playing T-Ball while everyone else is dodging 100 MPH fastballs. This is exactly why the WCS system in its current form worked for developing players, they didn’t have to immediately be competing with a stacked Korean playerbase off the bat until/if they’re ready to make that step up. And on the flipside there is that step up, which was made. This goes both ways in that the player operating in a weaker region doesn’t get as high a standard of competition when it does come to doing battle with Korea’s best. And additionally, Serral has the best vKorean record in the game’s history despite generally only playing Korean opposition who’ve passed various qualification hurdles and not those lower down the pyramid. I like my sports comparisons even if they don’t always 100% mesh exactly. The vast majority of the world’s best basketball players are in the NBA, but if some bloke showed up who was top 1-5 in the world by most’s reckonings who never set foot in it, isn’t that arguably a bigger feat? Or as per your comparison the guy who’s not used to facing 100 MPH fastballs enters competition where he is and adapts almost immediately. I’ve said it a million times, eventually Blizz/ESL largely got the structure right for foreign players, but they and other orgs dropped the ball with Korea. No sport in the world operates without tiers of competition that lead up to the elite. I get why the WCS and talent all over the world thing was nice. But it was also right equal money, taken away from the peak of competition to fund lower events no? But can't change the past, not sure I would even, but I'm also not sure that financial issues didn't stop some players in Korea, where the competition was in fact harder. You are right though, he had weaker practice in those competitions, and he may have the best vKorean record in the game. But if he were held to the same standard, as those Koreans would that be true? If he had to farm his WCS points while facing off against individuals who has a week+ to practice for specifically him, could he have made it to those events in the first place? The answer is probably, but would it have been all of them? I don't think so. But you are right he did have the upper level talent to be at those big events, but so did many of those who were playing in the Korean scene who didn't make the cut due to numbers they had to get through in a harder competition. In your NBA judgement how is that person getting there and making themselves into a top 5? Did he get to play against Santa's Elfs in the north poll league every year and get free seeding into the NBA finals? Skipping out on the regular season and the playoffs? I think Blizzard dropped the ball with all of esports and butchered every single thing possible, but that has nothing to do with WCS or serral really. That their project, limitations, requirements not only for Korea, but also the rest of the world destroyed Blizzard esports. Yes, you do want a competitive atmosphere for building up talent. But creating top tier events with mandatory long time period of play, with a bunch of money all spread out doing that? Is paying the #20 guy in EU or NA the same money as the #20 KOR really fair? Did they all play just as hard? In other esports there are side events smaller events for competition until you're ready to be a big dog. Blizzard through amateurs in to T1 paying events and basically time locked others from having a chance because they all ran at the same time. I didn’t like the WCS system when it wasn’t region locked, you still had the issue of Koreans just showing up for those tournaments and not really developing the regions. I was always much more in favour of a soft lock, and to this day. If a player (Polt being a great example) is making his life in another region, they’ll be playing consistently with players there and (hopefully) raising the level overall. Drop the prize pool versus Korea too by all means One of many Blizz mistakes IMO, I prefer that by far to a hard region lock, and I think the window to really salvage Kr has been passed That said I mean Kespa made a ton of mistakes, the scene when they arrived was as fragmented as it ever was and they never really tailored their product to where the viewership was. I actually don't think WCS and region-locking helped 'grow' players that much. SC2's tournament infrastructure is a pretty high-efficiency meritocracy, and players rise to their appropriate level of competition almost instantly (ironically, early WoL GSL had a horrendous gating system that delayed the rise of talent). Serral, Clem, and Reynor achieved very little tournament success when they were part-timers/students in the region-lock WCS system, so they weren't playing for money or career. They were just hobbyists having fun competing; there was no need to 'protect' them from Koreans. Once they actually DID decide to go full-time, they almost instantly became championship-level players because they had talent, and talented players rise to their appropriate level quickly in SC2. Unless Clem, Reynor, or Serral explicitly say their parents would never have let them give full-time SC2 a try without region-locked WCS, I'm very much inclined to believe that region-lock had little effect on their success.
Well they couldn’t compete right when they hit 16 with German labour laws, at least in the mainline tournaments, they’d still played quite a lot as semi-pros prior, and even then it was only really Serral who broke into a championship calibre player in international events right off the bat.
If we’re including time as a gifted amateur, popping up at the odd LAN etc it still took a good 3-4 years for these ones to get to their rough level they are now. Which aside from the flux of WoL launching, and the initial Kespa move isn’t really atypical for how long it takes a player to get to an international championship/GSL level.
As someone else had mentioned, these three are also the first real breakouts who’d been playing SC2 from a very early age, as their main game and not transferred from a BW, or an RTS like WC3 like a decent chunk of the prior foreign scene. So I think raw ability is also a big part of it, I think only Stephano really had that secret sauce, although I don’t think he’s as mechanically gifted. So yeah the talent absolutely helps and I wouldn’t discount that.
You’re seeing the exact issue foreigners used to have in certain periods, only in the Korean scene today. There isn’t enough prize money as it is, it’s split between players of too high a level to punch through, and you don’t have a team house system to learn your trade and get up to the requisite levels.
Which is a damn shame, but I still think some form of region lock (I’d prefer a soft one) absolutely did help develop the foreign scene a hell of a lot.
|
Northern Ireland24504 Posts
On June 26 2024 10:38 Mizenhauer wrote:
I know it's not necessary, but I do apologize to those I'm arguing with just for the sake of arguing. I'm in the midst of a manic episode and it's definitely spilled into the discussion. It's good that there is room for conversation on these topics and it was good to see an interview with herO. I recognize I'm not contributing in any positive way so I'll step back for a bit.
Been there got that t-shirt, hope you’re feeling better soon man
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
