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On June 11 2013 14:50 c0olL wrote:1. WTF is easy? are they more ez then dt or A move lings after a 7 pool? 2. (when you don't lose the Medivac) = lolololololol. every strategy is strong if you don't counter it properly 3. to early? you have no units if you do this too early, and if your enemy doesn't have defense he should have offense to punish you. if he has neither of them, its his problem he was too greedy. damn you flash and innovation! you make T look imba 
A 7 pool is an all in. DT puts you behind if it doesn't work. The whole point is that doing hellbat drops are too easy for the cost investment. Your comparisons make no sense.
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Ok guys. I have the cure.
Make it so you must get the upgrade and actually transform hellions into hellbats in order to use hellbats. Then, they will take long enough that they aren't easy to abuse -cough- TvT -cough-. If that isn't enough, then nerf their damage along with their health.
It's pretty fucking clear that they are too strong. A player basically (Innovation) went through the largest tournament (which happens to be an official Blizzard tournament...) using hellbat drops almost every game. When there are tournaments and prize-money (in the thousands) on the line, they better make damn sure there isn't overpowered shit in the game. "Waiting and seeing what happens" is what they should have done the first two weeks of HotS. This tournament was a VERY clear indication.
Also as an above poster said...
Oracles are a bad (poorly designed | easy to use) unit, nerf them already. 2-shotting workers in less than a second is stupid. But that's somewhat off-topic.
Note I play Terran. I refuse to use hellbats, though I use widowmines occasionally.
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On June 11 2013 14:50 c0olL wrote:1. WTF is easy? are they more ez then dt or A move lings after a 7 pool? 2. (when you don't lose the Medivac) = lolololololol. every strategy is strong if you don't counter it properly 3. to early? you have no units if you do this too early, and if your enemy doesn't have defense he should have offense to punish you. if he has neither of them, its his problem he was too greedy. damn you flash and innovation! you make T look imba
It only takes one medivac to boost in dropping hellbats to wreck a mineral line in a matter of seconds. No player wants to build 3-5 base defenses in each base to stop a drop fairly early in the game. It's a cheap drop, which T can do to keep a player in their base, kill their workers, or at the very least keep forcing loss mining time. Terran does not fall significantly behind if they hellbat drop whereas if the DT opening fails or 7 pool fails, the player is immensely behind.
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On June 11 2013 15:04 Blargh wrote:
A player basically (Innovation) went through the largest tournament (which happens to be an official Blizzard tournament...) using hellbat drops almost every game. When there are tournaments and prize-money (in the thousands) on the line, they better make damn sure there isn't overpowered shit in the game. "Waiting and seeing what happens" is what they should have done the first two weeks of HotS. This tournament was a VERY clear indication.
It is "Morrow's Reapers" once again ...
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On June 11 2013 15:04 Huragius wrote:
And why they aren't looking into proxy oracles in PvT?
Too easy for protoss too execute.
Almost always guaranteed damage, unless terran opened mines first which is actually shit against everything else (that's why it usually doesn't happen).
Hits way too early, and the only proper way to hold is early scout and very early ebay.
Because every halfway decent player has already learned how to deal with it.
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On June 11 2013 15:03 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 15:00 tomatriedes wrote:
Since it's early game that's the main issue, requiring an upgrade seems like a pretty fair solution. Guess that means bye-bye for Strelok in WCS (the only decent player who plays mech TvP I know).
Why do you say that? This kind of change David Kim is talking about would not affect mid or late game hellbat compositions. The hellbat wouldn't be weaker overall with a blue flame upgrade; it would just make early hellbat drop spam a little less popular.
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On June 11 2013 15:08 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 15:04 Huragius wrote:
And why they aren't looking into proxy oracles in PvT?
Too easy for protoss too execute.
Almost always guaranteed damage, unless terran opened mines first which is actually shit against everything else (that's why it usually doesn't happen).
Hits way too early, and the only proper way to hold is early scout and very early ebay. Because every halfway decent player has already learned how to deal with it.
Really? Damn near killed innovation, despite sos fucking up. You're clueless...
On June 11 2013 15:08 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 15:03 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 15:00 tomatriedes wrote:
Since it's early game that's the main issue, requiring an upgrade seems like a pretty fair solution. Guess that means bye-bye for Strelok in WCS (the only decent player who plays mech TvP I know). Why do you say that? This kind of change David Kim is talking about would not affect mid or late game hellbat compositions. The hellbat wouldn't be weaker overall with a blue flame upgrade; it would just make early hellbat drop spam a little less popular.
Mech generally relies on hellbat drops to do some kind of damage. Also mech is gas limited, and upgrades usually (always) cost gas. So it's certainly a nerf to mech play, which is already weak.
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On June 11 2013 15:08 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 15:03 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 15:00 tomatriedes wrote:
Since it's early game that's the main issue, requiring an upgrade seems like a pretty fair solution. Guess that means bye-bye for Strelok in WCS (the only decent player who plays mech TvP I know). Why do you say that? This kind of change David Kim is talking about would not affect mid or late game hellbat compositions. The hellbat wouldn't be weaker overall with a blue flame upgrade; it would just make early hellbat drop spam a little less popular.
I've watched Strelok games and I think, that mech would even less viable if hellbats were worse at dealing with early GW pressure. GW timings can hit really fast, players know that Strelok is playing mech and will exploit it.
Also, with no real threat of harassment the toss will quickly go on an eco rampage - that makes things even worse.
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they aren't that easy to execute. T_T
they are really hard to defend in tvt tho
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On June 11 2013 15:10 Klyberess wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 15:08 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 15:04 Huragius wrote:
And why they aren't looking into proxy oracles in PvT?
Too easy for protoss too execute.
Almost always guaranteed damage, unless terran opened mines first which is actually shit against everything else (that's why it usually doesn't happen).
Hits way too early, and the only proper way to hold is early scout and very early ebay. Because every halfway decent player has already learned how to deal with it. Really? Damn near killed innovation, despite sos fucking up. You're clueless...
That's the difference of being good and being bad. If you're a good player you can take some damage, still you are in the game and go for the win. Innovation did 4:0 sOs after all.
And if you suck you lose and cry your heart out on TL.
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On June 11 2013 10:57 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:
I feel like the most obvious solution would be to just make them un-healable by medivacs, but could be repaired. Adding to the pre igniter seems weird to me. I still feel they would be a viable way to harass and would even be good late game vs zealots if they werent healable, but its the fact that once they do drop they take so damn long to kill that makes them lethal.
Wedging 2-4 hellbats inside mineral lines makes them invincible vs zerglings etc.
LOL thats the whole point, They suppose to be hard counter to zerglings and zealots.
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On June 11 2013 15:04 Huragius wrote:
And why they aren't looking into proxy oracles in PvT?
Too easy for protoss too execute.
Almost always guaranteed damage, unless terran opened mines first which is actually shit against everything else (that's why it usually doesn't happen).
Hits way too early, and the only proper way to hold is early scout and very early ebay.
Any half decent master league terran players knows how to deal with proxy oracles if they aren't skimping on their early SCV scout. It doing some guaranteed damage does not mean much because if the terran deals with it accordingly they are (and is usually the case) comfortably ahead despite taking some SCV/marine losses here and there.
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On June 11 2013 15:16 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 15:10 Klyberess wrote:On June 11 2013 15:08 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 15:04 Huragius wrote:
And why they aren't looking into proxy oracles in PvT?
Too easy for protoss too execute.
Almost always guaranteed damage, unless terran opened mines first which is actually shit against everything else (that's why it usually doesn't happen).
Hits way too early, and the only proper way to hold is early scout and very early ebay. Because every halfway decent player has already learned how to deal with it. Really? Damn near killed innovation, despite sos fucking up. You're clueless... That's the difference of being good and being bad. If you're a good player you can take some damage, still you are in the game and go for the win. Innovation did 4:0 sOs after all. And if you suck you lose and cry your heart out on TL.
So when you say "every halfway decent player", you actually mean "the best players in the world". Good to know.
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On June 11 2013 15:02 Tsubbi wrote:
the problem is the god damn medivac, now blizzard cant add units than have good stats to compensate for low speed because the speedbost negates disadvantages
drops can be scouted and prepared for 2 minutes in advance and they still will fly into statics and units and be costefficient nevertheless
god this unit is so silly seriously the medivac boost looks like a left over april fools in the game
harassment for terran is just no longer impressive, its piss easy to execute, there isnt even any decisionmaking involved in building dropsships as u want to have them anyways for bio and for mech as well in hots which is just a joke
/rant
Bad player, bad post
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I would definitely like to see blue flame hellbats. I think that would be a great change. It would force a greater investment early on, but still leave mech intact and just as fierce as the game went on.
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On June 11 2013 15:17 Klyberess wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 15:16 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 15:10 Klyberess wrote:On June 11 2013 15:08 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 15:04 Huragius wrote:
And why they aren't looking into proxy oracles in PvT?
Too easy for protoss too execute.
Almost always guaranteed damage, unless terran opened mines first which is actually shit against everything else (that's why it usually doesn't happen).
Hits way too early, and the only proper way to hold is early scout and very early ebay. Because every halfway decent player has already learned how to deal with it. Really? Damn near killed innovation, despite sos fucking up. You're clueless... That's the difference of being good and being bad. If you're a good player you can take some damage, still you are in the game and go for the win. Innovation did 4:0 sOs after all. And if you suck you lose and cry your heart out on TL. So when you say "every halfway decent player", you actually mean "the best players in the world". Good to know.
This is where balance matters. Proxy oracle build is losing popularity, fewer WCS Premier league players go for it. It's a good build to throw in a BoX, still it is a gimmick.
Therefore there is absolutely no reason to change anything about the Oracle.
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On June 11 2013 15:21 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 15:17 Klyberess wrote:On June 11 2013 15:16 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 15:10 Klyberess wrote:On June 11 2013 15:08 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 15:04 Huragius wrote:
And why they aren't looking into proxy oracles in PvT?
Too easy for protoss too execute.
Almost always guaranteed damage, unless terran opened mines first which is actually shit against everything else (that's why it usually doesn't happen).
Hits way too early, and the only proper way to hold is early scout and very early ebay. Because every halfway decent player has already learned how to deal with it. Really? Damn near killed innovation, despite sos fucking up. You're clueless... That's the difference of being good and being bad. If you're a good player you can take some damage, still you are in the game and go for the win. Innovation did 4:0 sOs after all. And if you suck you lose and cry your heart out on TL. So when you say "every halfway decent player", you actually mean "the best players in the world". Good to know. This is where balance matters. Proxy oracle build is losing popularity, fewer WCS Premier league players go for it. It's a good build to throw in a BoX, still it is a gimmick. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to change anything about the Oracle.
I haven't suggested changing anything about the oracle.
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they know what they're doing these days
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On June 11 2013 15:13 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 15:08 tomatriedes wrote:On June 11 2013 15:03 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 15:00 tomatriedes wrote:
Since it's early game that's the main issue, requiring an upgrade seems like a pretty fair solution. Guess that means bye-bye for Strelok in WCS (the only decent player who plays mech TvP I know). Why do you say that? This kind of change David Kim is talking about would not affect mid or late game hellbat compositions. The hellbat wouldn't be weaker overall with a blue flame upgrade; it would just make early hellbat drop spam a little less popular. I've watched Strelok games and I think, that mech would even less viable if hellbats were worse at dealing with early GW pressure. GW timings can hit really fast, players know that Strelok is playing mech and will exploit it. Also, with no real threat of harassment the toss will quickly go on an eco rampage - that makes things even worse.
Wait, what? You want to mech properly and be able to harass powerfully? Right.
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EPT
