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On June 11 2013 13:05 Waxangel wrote:
fix the medivac, not the hellbat
harassment has become so easy it's no longer impressive
Why in the world would you want this? The whole point David Kim was trying to make is that he wants offensive harassment to be easier. Nerfing the Medivac speed would just hinder this leading to stale defensive games like in WOL especially now that Zerg has stronger defensive mechanisms (Muta Speed / Vipers). That's why also they want to give the Warp Prism speed to encourage harassment.
Also win rates are pretty much balanced, so the Medivac is not breaking any matchups. The Hellbat is just making the meta-game really boring, that's all. I sense a subtle balance whine in this post.
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On June 11 2013 12:22 GhostOwl wrote:
Problem is hellbat AND hellbatdrops.
Make speedvac cost 100 energy to use its boost
Require hellbat to be produced from hellion transformation only. The process costs 50 gas or 25 mineral/25 gas.
This should fix the "too early" problem. The transformation process should take as long as the current building time for hellbat.
Remove bio tag from hellbat
Leave hellion alone
That should be very reasonable
Indeed, and nerf marine/marauder damage to half, and siege tank range to 2/3 of what it is. Also walking must be researched in a tech lab, before that no barracks unit should be able to move.
Should be very reasonable as well I think.
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On June 11 2013 14:34 GudulesmSC2 wrote:
To all the people suggesting that the speedvac should be nerfed/removed, I think that it would become a huge problem for Terrans in big engagements against Zerg. Right now if you lose an engagement against muta ling banes, you can stim your bio and boost your medivacs and hope that the reinforcement will come in time to save what's left of your army.
Without the boost and given how fast mutas are right now, you would automatically lose all your bio (that stays back to protect the medivacs) or lose all your gas investment in an instant. With that kind of risk, you really don't want to risk an engagement that could turn badly, which might lead to a much more cautious and turtle-y style of play for terrans, which is both boring to watch and to play.
I'm not saying that speedvac + hellbats are not a problem, but I think that Blizz should concentrate on nerfing the hellbat and not the medivac.
My 2 cents.
Well half the problem of the hellbat drop is the medivac itself, because of the boost being able circumvent bases. Usually a player only builds 1-2 anti-air defenses which doesn't kill the drop before it can drop the hellbats on a mineral line. The next problem is that hellbats only cost 100 minerals yet they are so strong.
I should say that the drops themselves need to have more risk involved with them. Watching a lot of pro games, hellbat drops do not seem to have a huge risk, because even the threat of them does damage.
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United States33671 Posts
On June 11 2013 14:39 Albinoswordfish wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 13:05 Waxangel wrote:
fix the medivac, not the hellbat
harassment has become so easy it's no longer impressive Why in the world would you want this? The whole point David Kim was trying to make is that he wants offensive harassment to be easier. Nerfing the Medivac speed would just hinder this leading to stale defensive games like in WOL especially now that Zerg has stronger defensive mechanisms (Muta Speed / Vipers). That's why also they want to give the Warp Prism speed to encourage harassment. Also win rates are pretty much balanced, so the Medivac is not breaking any matchups. The Hellbat is just making the meta-game really boring, that's all. I sense a subtle balance whine in this post.
why on earth did you have end your post with "I disagree with your opinion so I will try to paint you as someone who is speaking unobjectively"?
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The biological tag on the Hellbat just has to be removed.. it doesn't make any sense lore-wise and it sure as hell doesn't make it very balanced.
Edit: Also that speed boost on medivacs should either be an upgrade, or should require energy. Since when were WoL medivacs underpowered?
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On June 11 2013 14:01 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 13:21 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2013 13:16 Qwyn wrote:On June 11 2013 12:54 iky43210 wrote:
they won't nerf hellbats, just a generic comments until rest of the community stop bitching when korean pros show you how to deal with them.
Remember the medivac and mines outburst earlier on? exactly the same thing as back then. Blizzard have learned from WoL that if you take away too many harass options for Terran, you will get a very stale meta game very quickly in all TvX matchups.
If anything changes, it would be something like marauders now deal bonus dmg to mechanical so they would be even the scale in bio vs mech in TvT Something is very wrong if you have to rely on Terran to provide exciting, harass intensive games...I don't think they'd adjust marauder v. mechanical...think of the repercussions in TvP. I have to agree with you there, but that POV of the community is something which Blizzard has trained their SC2 customers to expect ... fast and full of action. The only way is "up" and so they are adding in speed for harrassment units and harrassment carriers like the Medivac, Warp Prism and the Mutalisk. They simply do not understand that this is TOO MUCH and that games will be decided by a coinflip ... or rather by who can scout his enemy first / better and make the harrassment drops to annihilate the opposing economy before it is done to himself. I'm shooting the breeze, but I don't know if the problem is so much too much harassment so much as units that are passively good at harassment rather than units that can be good at harassment if controlled properly. I was never big fan of the idea of a more tanky, slower version of the hellion that sprays splash damage (and can be healed and therefore is even more tanky.) Rather than tightening up hellion attack-retreat micro.
A big point of the Hellbat is that it is a braindead unit to use and requires almost no skill. You just need to drive the Medivac and drop the Hellbats ... and since it is only two units you are dropping it is a rather "fast damage output" compared to the time it takes to drop eight Marines for example. I had thought of adjusting the time it takes to drop out the second unit according with its supply cost, but such a change could possibly nerf any "Thor micro drop" too.
Add skill requirement not speed
We all would like to see more units which reward "player control skill" more, but the truth of the matter is that this is SC2 and massive armies and huge reproduction capabilities are what Browder thinks is exciting instead of precise micro. Its like those movies, where the director of the sequel thinks that his one will be automatically better than the first if the special effects budget goes through the roof ... that can be the case, but it more than often fails to be true.
To get to "a better Starcraft 2" we really need a redesign of the core elements of
- unit control and movement ... which need to be toned down to reduce the unit density and allow for more control
- economy and unit production capability ... since you have a lower unit density in an area of battle you need to produce fewer units.
As a result the game would have to rely much more on player skill to keep their units alive (instead of simply reproducing them wave after wave) since every unit is valuable or to outmaneuver your opponent and kill more efficiently. The battles would not be much shorter since the total dps of the armies would be lower, which means units die slower. As an added benefit you could finally take out crutch spells like Forcefield, which really restrict map makers in what they can do in the middle of the map.
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1. WTF is easy? are they more ez then dt or A move lings after a 7 pool?
2. (when you don't lose the Medivac) = lolololololol. every strategy is strong if you don't counter it properly
3. to early? you have no units if you do this too early, and if your enemy doesn't have defense he should have offense to punish you. if he has neither of them, its his problem he was too greedy.
damn you flash and innovation! you make T look imba 
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See, Innovation is going to single-handedly get Hellbats nerfed, like how MVP made ghosts get nerfed.
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I say the solution is to boost Missile Turret damage.
The big problem is, even if it's a oneway trip, 2 Turrets, optimally placed still don't kill an incoming medivac before it has a chance to drop both Hellbats. Boost Turret damage so that they have a good chance of killing the Medivac as it comes in and then they are readily stopped.
As is, Terrain Anti-air is limited to marines and maybe a few vikings at the time when Hellbat drops can start. Marines are easily munched by aid Hellbats, if they are in position at all, and Viking Production means cutting your own medivacs for counter-drops. Besides, Vikings aren't optimal vs Medivacs, they are too slow to keep up and track well.
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Hellbat for me is a very weird unit. Its like trying to crossbreed two completely different units.
Hellion - Fast - Vehicular unit - Ranged Straightshooting AOE - Blue Flame Upgrade - Cargo Size 2
Hellbat - Slow - Biological unit - Splashy shortranged attack - No Blue Flame upgrade - Cargo Size 4
Design-wise, why will the cargo size increase for the same unit? Is it because they are not propely packed?
Also, why no BF upgrade? After transforming the driver should change the gas tank?
Oh yeah, why can you heal the Hellbat? Both units are operated by the same driver.
My suggestion is to take out the Transformation Servos upgrade, making them two different units. Give the hellbat a higher supply cost (since you have increased the cargo size) and higher build cost (Please add Vespene as Hellbats OBVIOUSLY use gas) and lastly no healing as you wanted this to become a mech unit anyway. If Hellbats needs to be healed, then you should heal Tanks, Thors, and Vikings since they have drivers too.
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On June 11 2013 14:49 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 14:01 Falling wrote:On June 11 2013 13:21 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2013 13:16 Qwyn wrote:On June 11 2013 12:54 iky43210 wrote:
they won't nerf hellbats, just a generic comments until rest of the community stop bitching when korean pros show you how to deal with them.
Remember the medivac and mines outburst earlier on? exactly the same thing as back then. Blizzard have learned from WoL that if you take away too many harass options for Terran, you will get a very stale meta game very quickly in all TvX matchups.
If anything changes, it would be something like marauders now deal bonus dmg to mechanical so they would be even the scale in bio vs mech in TvT Something is very wrong if you have to rely on Terran to provide exciting, harass intensive games...I don't think they'd adjust marauder v. mechanical...think of the repercussions in TvP. I have to agree with you there, but that POV of the community is something which Blizzard has trained their SC2 customers to expect ... fast and full of action. The only way is "up" and so they are adding in speed for harrassment units and harrassment carriers like the Medivac, Warp Prism and the Mutalisk. They simply do not understand that this is TOO MUCH and that games will be decided by a coinflip ... or rather by who can scout his enemy first / better and make the harrassment drops to annihilate the opposing economy before it is done to himself. I'm shooting the breeze, but I don't know if the problem is so much too much harassment so much as units that are passively good at harassment rather than units that can be good at harassment if controlled properly. I was never big fan of the idea of a more tanky, slower version of the hellion that sprays splash damage (and can be healed and therefore is even more tanky.) Rather than tightening up hellion attack-retreat micro. A big point of the Hellbat is that it is a braindead unit to use and requires almost no skill. You just need to drive the Medivac and drop the Hellbats ... and since it is only two units you are dropping it is a rather "fast damage output" compared to the time it takes to drop eight Marines for example. I had thought of adjusting the time it takes to drop out the second unit according with its supply cost, but such a change could possibly nerf any "Thor micro drop" too. Add skill requirement not speedWe all would like to see more units which reward "player control skill" more, but the truth of the matter is that this is SC2 and massive armies and huge reproduction capabilities are what Browder thinks is exciting instead of precise micro. Its like those movies, where the director of the sequel thinks that his one will be automatically better than the first if the special effects budget goes through the roof ... that can be the case, but it more than often fails to be true. To get to "a better Starcraft 2" we really need a redesign of the core elements of - unit control and movement ... which need to be toned down to reduce the unit density and allow for more control - economy and unit production capability ... since you have a lower unit density in an area of battle you need to produce fewer units. As a result the game would have to rely much more on player skill to keep their units alive (instead of simply reproducing them wave after wave) since every unit is valuable or to outmaneuver your opponent and kill more efficiently. The battles would not be much shorter since the total dps of the armies would be lower, which means units die slower. As an added benefit you could finally take out crutch spells like Forcefield, which really restrict map makers in what they can do in the middle of the map.
People have been asking for similar changes for years now. It's just not going to happen. They will change numbers and maybe something like the bio tag. They will not fundamentally change the structure of the game. I will be more than happy if Blizzard proved me wrong.
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Perhaps nerfing the vs light damage of hellbats and making ignite afterburners cost 25 energy would solve this issue. I think.
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On June 11 2013 14:46 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 14:39 Albinoswordfish wrote:On June 11 2013 13:05 Waxangel wrote:
fix the medivac, not the hellbat
harassment has become so easy it's no longer impressive Why in the world would you want this? The whole point David Kim was trying to make is that he wants offensive harassment to be easier. Nerfing the Medivac speed would just hinder this leading to stale defensive games like in WOL especially now that Zerg has stronger defensive mechanisms (Muta Speed / Vipers). That's why also they want to give the Warp Prism speed to encourage harassment. Also win rates are pretty much balanced, so the Medivac is not breaking any matchups. The Hellbat is just making the meta-game really boring, that's all. I sense a subtle balance whine in this post. why on earth did you have end your post with "I disagree with your opinion so I will try to paint you as someone who is speaking unobjectively"?
I interpreted it as Terran players multitasking harassment with Medivacs is really easy. And it's giving players undeserved wins.
So what does "harassment has become so easy it's no longer impressive" quote supposed to mean?
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On June 11 2013 14:50 c0olL wrote:1. WTF is easy? are they more ez then dt or A move lings after a 7 pool? 2. (when you don't lose the Medivac) = lolololololol. every strategy is strong if you don't counter it properly 3. to early? you have no units if you do this too early, and if your enemy doesn't have defense he should have offense to punish you. if he has neither of them, its his problem he was too greedy. damn you flash and innovation! you make T look imba
Controlling your lings after a cheese-pool is not easy because you only have VERY FEW and NO ECONOMY TO SPEAK OF and A LONG WAY TO REINFORCE.
DTs cost 125/125 each and have 120 total hit points and shield.
Hellbats cost 100/0 and have 135 hit points.
The investment for a Hellbat drop is MUCH lower AND it comes much faster than a DT harrassment.
If the opponent does not have any defense to fend off the harrass you will end up killing his economy and after that you can take the Hellbats back to defend your base. Terrans have those things which are called WALLS and it takes a big effort to break through them.
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When they remove the biological affix, too, Blizzard may finally have seen the obvious -.-
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Since it's early game that's the main issue, requiring an upgrade seems like a pretty fair solution.
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On June 11 2013 14:31 superpanda27 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 14:28 Klyberess wrote:On June 11 2013 14:27 superpanda27 wrote:
I think one of the biggest problems with the hellbat drop itself is not only the hellbat, but the actual medivac. To be more specific it's the medivac boost. It allows for fast drops totally bypassing 1-2 shots from base defenses to drop on top of a mineral line. The boost also allows for hellbats to be hotdropped on groups of clumped workers as well. I still think that the medivac boost should at least cost some energy as well.
Since no one really uses the transformation upgrade for the hellbat/hellion why not make them 2 separate units and make the hellbat cost minerals and gas? Like 150 - 50 or something. And we'll never see a hellbat again. I see you favour the Blizzard nerf strategy -- nerf anything slightly too strong to the fucking ground. And hellbats are too efficient anyways, they have to be toned down anyways. What do you suggest they do to the hellbat?
No, nobody is saying they are too strong in a straight-up fight, except perhaps dishonest P/Z players that are happy for any T nerf. It's the drops that are too strong and low-risk, primarily in TvT.
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the problem is the god damn medivac, now blizzard cant add units than have good stats to compensate for low speed because the speedbost negates disadvantages
drops can be scouted and prepared for 2 minutes in advance and they still will fly into statics and units and be costefficient nevertheless
god this unit is so silly seriously the medivac boost looks like a left over april fools in the game
harassment for terran is just no longer impressive, its piss easy to execute, there isnt even any decisionmaking involved in building dropsships as u want to have them anyways for bio and for mech as well in hots which is just a joke
/rant
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On June 11 2013 15:00 tomatriedes wrote:
Since it's early game that's the main issue, requiring an upgrade seems like a pretty fair solution.
Guess that means bye-bye for Strelok in WCS (the only decent player who plays mech TvP I know).
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On June 11 2013 14:56 trifecta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 14:49 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2013 14:01 Falling wrote:On June 11 2013 13:21 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2013 13:16 Qwyn wrote:On June 11 2013 12:54 iky43210 wrote:
they won't nerf hellbats, just a generic comments until rest of the community stop bitching when korean pros show you how to deal with them.
Remember the medivac and mines outburst earlier on? exactly the same thing as back then. Blizzard have learned from WoL that if you take away too many harass options for Terran, you will get a very stale meta game very quickly in all TvX matchups.
If anything changes, it would be something like marauders now deal bonus dmg to mechanical so they would be even the scale in bio vs mech in TvT Something is very wrong if you have to rely on Terran to provide exciting, harass intensive games...I don't think they'd adjust marauder v. mechanical...think of the repercussions in TvP. I have to agree with you there, but that POV of the community is something which Blizzard has trained their SC2 customers to expect ... fast and full of action. The only way is "up" and so they are adding in speed for harrassment units and harrassment carriers like the Medivac, Warp Prism and the Mutalisk. They simply do not understand that this is TOO MUCH and that games will be decided by a coinflip ... or rather by who can scout his enemy first / better and make the harrassment drops to annihilate the opposing economy before it is done to himself. I'm shooting the breeze, but I don't know if the problem is so much too much harassment so much as units that are passively good at harassment rather than units that can be good at harassment if controlled properly. I was never big fan of the idea of a more tanky, slower version of the hellion that sprays splash damage (and can be healed and therefore is even more tanky.) Rather than tightening up hellion attack-retreat micro. A big point of the Hellbat is that it is a braindead unit to use and requires almost no skill. You just need to drive the Medivac and drop the Hellbats ... and since it is only two units you are dropping it is a rather "fast damage output" compared to the time it takes to drop eight Marines for example. I had thought of adjusting the time it takes to drop out the second unit according with its supply cost, but such a change could possibly nerf any "Thor micro drop" too. Add skill requirement not speedWe all would like to see more units which reward "player control skill" more, but the truth of the matter is that this is SC2 and massive armies and huge reproduction capabilities are what Browder thinks is exciting instead of precise micro. Its like those movies, where the director of the sequel thinks that his one will be automatically better than the first if the special effects budget goes through the roof ... that can be the case, but it more than often fails to be true. To get to "a better Starcraft 2" we really need a redesign of the core elements of - unit control and movement ... which need to be toned down to reduce the unit density and allow for more control - economy and unit production capability ... since you have a lower unit density in an area of battle you need to produce fewer units. As a result the game would have to rely much more on player skill to keep their units alive (instead of simply reproducing them wave after wave) since every unit is valuable or to outmaneuver your opponent and kill more efficiently. The battles would not be much shorter since the total dps of the armies would be lower, which means units die slower. As an added benefit you could finally take out crutch spells like Forcefield, which really restrict map makers in what they can do in the middle of the map. People have been asking for similar changes for years now. It's just not going to happen. They will change numbers and maybe something like the bio tag. They will not fundamentally change the structure of the game. I will be more than happy if Blizzard proved me wrong.
The big question is: Do you agree with me that it would make the game better to reduce the unit density?
If YES then there can be no harm in asking for it for the 356.798th time, because Blizzard might eventually get it. If NO then please explain why.
If enough people say they agree with this Blizzard will have to take note and maybe do something ... and the only hope I still have of them actually doing it is after LotV, but seeing the ridiculous units they added in HotS I fear for what is coming next. SC2 may be totally ridiculous after that, but every ridiculous unit they add increases the chance of having the penny drop for Browder and Kim.
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