Obviously we'd like to see how they turn out in the coming weeks, but initially we're thinking:
1. Too easy to execute 2. Especially in TvT, not a lot of risk to doing them (when you don't lose the Medivac) 3. Might be too early before defenses can be ready
Rather than jumping to conclusions right now, we'll keep a close eye on it and if in fact Hellbat drops do turn out too strong, we'll do something like rolling in some of their damage with the Infernal Pre igniter upgrade.
Looking forward to changes. I hope they do something since hellbats are the strongest mineral dump in in the game, can be reactored out, healed and come out pretty fast.
Something there not even considering is there late game utility. TvP when the terran goes mech, is so much stronger, because the hellbat is such an efficient harassment unit.
The early game attacks are hard, but late game is just as difficult.
well i dont mind having blueflame hellbats back just for the cool look
but i think it would be the most reasonable change ..glad to hear that they keep their careful balancing politics instead of making radical decisions too soon
too easy to execute hehehe, interesting conclusion wonder what they based this upon. Especially when most people fail defending and doing hellbat drops at the same time.
I feel like the most obvious solution would be to just make them un-healable by medivacs, but could be repaired. Adding to the pre igniter seems weird to me. I still feel they would be a viable way to harass and would even be good late game vs zealots if they werent healable, but its the fact that once they do drop they take so damn long to kill that makes them lethal.
Wedging 2-4 hellbats inside mineral lines makes them invincible vs zerglings etc.
The issue with hellbats is that when they're in medivacs they're fucking amazing but outside of them less so. They're still good in smaller scale fights against lings and zealots but once the opponent gets enough firepower together they suffer the weakness that all melee units get which is getting annihilated on the way in and this is compounded by being super duper slow.
I'm more for making the unit slightly more stupid and putting a 2-3 second debuff when they exit a medivac that prevents them from shooting. Yea it's really fucking stupid but it fixes the one issue with the unit.
im confident they will end up making a change to the hellbat.
it doesnt scream imbalance like the warhound did, but i cant shake the feeling that its not just me who is finding them a little too obnoxious in terms of their efficiency lol
On June 11 2013 10:56 jcroisdale wrote: Something there not even considering is there late game utility. TvP when the terran goes mech, is so much stronger, because the hellbat is such an efficient harassment unit.
The early game attacks are hard, but late game is just as difficult.
It's the ONLY harassment option Mech has at this point. It should be strong.
What's dumb is how strong Helbat drops are as part of bio play especially in the early game. Their late game utility for mech is fine.
On June 11 2013 10:52 SoOJuuu wrote: took them long enough to figuire it out. sigh better late then never.
They watch the same games you do. If they fix shit too soon Oracles, Mines, speedivac and voidray (among other things) would be useless right now. It's smart to wait to see if people find solutions. Sometimes it's laziness and bad work, but I think they're being smart with HOTS.
On June 11 2013 10:52 SoOJuuu wrote: took them long enough to figuire it out. sigh better late then never.
I think it's fine. It's always good to let a metagame settle and see if the community can solve its own issues. Better than having a company patch the game at such a reactionary pace that it takes the innovation out of its players.
On June 11 2013 10:56 jcroisdale wrote: Something there not even considering is there late game utility. TvP when the terran goes mech, is so much stronger, because the hellbat is such an efficient harassment unit.
The early game attacks are hard, but late game is just as difficult.
I don't think mech in TvP is not in anyway strong in general.
On June 11 2013 10:56 jcroisdale wrote: Something there not even considering is there late game utility. TvP when the terran goes mech, is so much stronger, because the hellbat is such an efficient harassment unit.
The early game attacks are hard, but late game is just as difficult.
It's the ONLY harassment option Mech has at this point. It should be strong.
What's dumb is how strong Helbat drops are as part of bio play especially in the early game. Their late game utility for mech is fine.
You know, there are other harassment opportunities for mech too...like in WoL - blue flame hellions (four to a medevac)...and even mines!
A drop does not HAVE to be strong - that should depend on the level of execution of the player dropping. All that should matter is the potential for it to be strong based on execution.
I think the #3 seems to be the most relevant. It seems like unless you're going with a very unconventional strat (e.g. marine + marauder rush) you just don't have enough stuff to deal with hellbats with standard openings. (they even kill a tank with medivac healing from what I've seen) So it seems like the logical response is going hellbat yourself.
Edit: Then again, the reason why non-hellbat player don't seem to have enough stuff is because hellbats are being healed by medivacs..
I honestly think they should do that AND remove the bio tag from it, they do damage in drops too fast and tank damage too well (plus it makes no sense).
That said, it's definitely a step in the right direction.
TvT is really stale at the moment since the one who has the highest Hellbat drop per minute is the one who wins. The other matchups are not as bad but it gets really boring playing vs Terran who does only this over and over again.
On June 11 2013 10:56 jcroisdale wrote: Something there not even considering is there late game utility. TvP when the terran goes mech, is so much stronger, because the hellbat is such an efficient harassment unit.
The early game attacks are hard, but late game is just as difficult.
I don't think mech in TvP is not in anyway strong in general.
how i wish mech would be great vs protoss. that's gonna fucking rock.
WCS Season 1 is over and David Kim still wants to wait it out after watching how much damage the Hellbat drops do? This has been a problem since HOTS beta and has continued to been one. I got Hellbat dropped today and I didn't even bother going back home to defend my SCVs because I knew I would be too far behind. I just pushed into my opponent's natural and hoped for the best.
Honestly speaking, I think Hellbat drops are viable against all races right now. Just open with Hellbat drops and you're pretty much guaranteed to kill roughly a dozen workers if your opponent doesn't pull SCVs quick enough, whether they are playing Protoss, Zerg, or Terran.
On June 11 2013 11:21 Whitewing wrote: I honestly think they should do that AND remove the bio tag from it, they do damage in drops too fast and tank damage too well (plus it makes no sense).
That said, it's definitely a step in the right direction.
While the bio tag was controversial in the beta, it turned out to be one of the things that brought them from crap to usefulness. There is a fine line for that distinction with the unit, so being cautious is the correct move.
On June 11 2013 11:41 plogamer wrote: They should not nerf the damage. If the problem is drops, then nerf drops.
I think David Kim seems to be leaning towards the fact that the problem isn't so much just hellbat drops in general, but rather perhaps the early timing of the hellbat drops.
Solutions may include - Increased build time - Upgrade requirements (on medivac speed boost or hellbat transform again) to delay the timing on drops. - Maybe an increased cost for hellbats? Not as sure on this one.
I'd also prefer that they didn't mess with the damage, but rather how easy it is to access the hellbat drop. I'd prefer them to play with the numbers around the drop itself, as you suggested.
On June 11 2013 11:41 plogamer wrote: They should not nerf the damage. If the problem is drops, then nerf drops.
I think David Kim seems to be leaning towards the fact that the problem isn't so much just hellbat drops in general, but rather perhaps the early timing of the hellbat drops.
Solutions may include - Increased build time - Upgrade requirements (on medivac speed boost or hellbat transform again) to delay the timing on drops. - Maybe an increased cost for hellbats? Not as sure on this one.
I'd also prefer that they didn't mess with the damage, but rather how easy it is to access the hellbat drop. I'd prefer them to play with the numbers around the drop itself, as you suggested.
They would never touch speed boost, most likely it'll be damage nerf with reintroduction of BF upgrade.
Obviously we'd like to see how they turn out in the coming weeks, but initially we're thinking:
1. Too easy to execute 2. Especially in TvT, not a lot of risk to doing them (when you don't lose the Medivac) 3. Might be too early before defenses can be ready
Rather than jumping to conclusions right now, we'll keep a close eye on it and if in fact Hellbat drops do turn out too strong, we'll do something like rolling in some of their damage with the Infernal Pre igniter upgrade.
I really really like the Pre Igniter Upgrade. This would make the upgrade really relevant. Lets have the normal HB shitty damage, and with the upgrade the current damages. Make the upgrade cheap, but long to research. Also, maybe reduce the health of the HB a little, but keeping the healing.
On June 11 2013 10:56 jcroisdale wrote: Something there not even considering is there late game utility. TvP when the terran goes mech, is so much stronger, because the hellbat is such an efficient harassment unit.
TvP mech is still a joke and unviable, no idea why you mentioned it. The main problem with hellbat drops is what it's done to TvT. Making hellbats mechanical rather than bio (so no healing) would be a decent fix.
On June 11 2013 11:41 plogamer wrote: They should not nerf the damage. If the problem is drops, then nerf drops.
I think David Kim seems to be leaning towards the fact that the problem isn't so much just hellbat drops in general, but rather perhaps the early timing of the hellbat drops.
Solutions may include - Increased build time - Upgrade requirements (on medivac speed boost or hellbat transform again) to delay the timing on drops. - Maybe an increased cost for hellbats? Not as sure on this one.
I'd also prefer that they didn't mess with the damage, but rather how easy it is to access the hellbat drop. I'd prefer them to play with the numbers around the drop itself, as you suggested.
I really don't care about hellbats. First time you see how many hits it takes to kill hellbats being healed by medivacs, it's jaw dropping. But, no matter how times you see proxy widow mines, it's still jaw dropping at how fast they get to your base. If I can't get a stalker out before needing detection in my base, it's probably way, way too fast. If they alter the time it takes to make hellbats without doing something about widow mines, I'll be so tilted. Please, keep making hellbats. Make the units that I actually have time to make units myself to defend... or I can actually get a cannon up...
Obviously we'd like to see how they turn out in the coming weeks, but initially we're thinking:
1. Too easy to execute 2. Especially in TvT, not a lot of risk to doing them (when you don't lose the Medivac) 3. Might be too early before defenses can be ready
Rather than jumping to conclusions right now, we'll keep a close eye on it and if in fact Hellbat drops do turn out too strong, we'll do something like rolling in some of their damage with the Infernal Pre igniter upgrade..
He forgot a really important part ... totally boring to watch and impossible to follow for an observer if you have several of them going on at the same time in TvT.
Require hellbat to be produced from hellion transformation only. The process costs 50 gas or 25 mineral/25 gas. This should fix the "too early" problem. The transformation process should take as long as the current building time for hellbat.
On June 11 2013 12:22 GhostOwl wrote: Problem is hellbat AND hellbatdrops.
Make speedvac cost 100 energy to use its boost
Require hellbat to be produced from hellion transformation only. The process costs 50 gas or 25 mineral/25 gas. This should fix the "too early" problem. The transformation process should take as long as the current building time for hellbat.
Remove bio tag from hellbat
Leave hellion alone
That should be very reasonable
Except it's not reasonable lol. They would never go and nerf several things at once.
Obviously we'd like to see how they turn out in the coming weeks, but initially we're thinking:
1. Too easy to execute 2. Especially in TvT, not a lot of risk to doing them (when you don't lose the Medivac) 3. Might be too early before defenses can be ready
Rather than jumping to conclusions right now, we'll keep a close eye on it and if in fact Hellbat drops do turn out too strong, we'll do something like rolling in some of their damage with the Infernal Pre igniter upgrade..
He forgot a really important part ... totally boring to watch and impossible to follow for an observer if you have several of them going on at the same time in TvT.
Please, If a player can control several drops at once, an observer should have 0 problems keeping track of them.
Obviously we'd like to see how they turn out in the coming weeks, but initially we're thinking:
1. Too easy to execute 2. Especially in TvT, not a lot of risk to doing them (when you don't lose the Medivac) 3. Might be too early before defenses can be ready
Rather than jumping to conclusions right now, we'll keep a close eye on it and if in fact Hellbat drops do turn out too strong, we'll do something like rolling in some of their damage with the Infernal Pre igniter upgrade..
He forgot a really important part ... totally boring to watch and impossible to follow for an observer if you have several of them going on at the same time in TvT.
Please, If a player can control several drops at once, an observer should have 0 problems keeping track of them.
absolutely wrong. you don't look at your drops all the time, obs cannot keep shifting screen all the time. there is a huge difference between FP and obs
Great idea, I always wondered why hellbats wouldn't be effected by the blue flame upgrade. This will probably be enough to keep them viable while making them less dominant.
On June 11 2013 12:22 GhostOwl wrote: Problem is hellbat AND hellbatdrops.
Make speedvac cost 100 energy to use its boost
Require hellbat to be produced from hellion transformation only. The process costs 50 gas or 25 mineral/25 gas. This should fix the "too early" problem. The transformation process should take as long as the current building time for hellbat.
Remove bio tag from hellbat
Leave hellion alone
That should be very reasonable
No ... they wont ever nerf their speed boost that way ... their baby (which should be removed altogether). The only sensible way is to slow down early Hellbat production by requiring a tech lab to make them. You can only build one of them that way and it will add another minute or so to the time when a first double Hellbat drop will show up.
That would totally undo the whole thing which Blizzard tried to implement with HotS ... more aggression and more drops ... so I could also imagine some really stupid solutions - as they did for the 'ZvZ Mutalisk problem' - coming from them instead.
Clicked the battlenet forum link and read it. Having not read that accursed place for a year by now, I am shuddering now. The amount of uninformed comments, super bias and trolling there just blows my mind. The terrans vehemently opposing this change on the grounds of "zerg still winning everything in HotS"...Let's just say I'm glad that I found teamliquid.
Anyways, I am glad they are looking at it. I am not afraid of hellbats or their drops in PvT, but I do find them really obnoxiously cost efficient in TvZ and TvT, particularly TvT. Mvp vs Innovation would have been the best match ever if not for this unit existing.
On June 11 2013 12:22 GhostOwl wrote: Problem is hellbat AND hellbatdrops.
Make speedvac cost 100 energy to use its boost
Require hellbat to be produced from hellion transformation only. The process costs 50 gas or 25 mineral/25 gas. This should fix the "too early" problem. The transformation process should take as long as the current building time for hellbat.
Remove bio tag from hellbat
Leave hellion alone
That should be very reasonable
No ... they wont ever nerf their speed boost that way ... their baby (which should be removed altogether). The only sensible way is to slow down early Hellbat production by requiring a tech lab to make them. You can only build one of them that way and it will add another minute or so to the time when a first double Hellbat drop will show up.
That would totally undo the whole thing which Blizzard tried to implement with HotS ... more aggression and more drops ... so I could also imagine some really stupid solutions - as they did for the 'ZvZ Mutalisk problem' - coming from them instead.
That's not the sensible way at all, the most sensible has already been stated by DK, nerf damage and give BF back. Your solution not only nerfs them, but almost kills HB drops all-together while making Mech even worst then it already is,
Very good approach to game balance by Blizzard recently. They're thinking in the right direction at least. None of that "the winrates were balanced so we gave +2 range to the queen huehuehue".
Imo they are taking a bit too long for this. It's not exactly the first time it's being done in a major tournament setting *cough* Lucifron.
Predicting they are going to change the Hellbat so it can't be dropped at all. But as long as the Hellbat doesn't turn into the new Infestor, I'll be happy waiting.
I am glad that Blizzard agrees Hellbat is too easy to execute. Compare to good old Blue flame hellions that the Slayers used, hellbat drop is easier to do. And Blue flame was nerfed immediately after one tournament.
Hmmm I would much prefer to see the healing taken away. I feel like if they make their base damage weaker until upgraded we just won't see the unit used any more.
I really don't want them nerfed, it will just mean everyone will stop using hellbats to harass. If anything, just buff the stuff around them or give them subtle nerfs. Longer unload times or a delay in firing the first shot.
Alright.. cant you just have speedbost require an upgrade? I don't think it should cost energy, atleast not alot. Maybe increase the cooldown?. You can even consider having the speedbost work similarly as a stimpack. the medivac takes damage due to the excessive speed =). It's not even illogical! :D
Aslong as they don't mess with hellbats as an option lategame vs P. I really want to see the rebirth of mech proper and I think hellbats is one of the few things thats keeping mech out of the grave now.. even if its rarely used it still can work alot better now then in WoL.
On June 11 2013 10:52 SoOJuuu wrote: took them long enough to figuire it out. sigh better late then never.
What a silly view. What were they supposed to figure out? They need to see how the best players in the world utilize and fare against a strategy, not what random GM players in NA or EU (or god forbid even below that level) think about a unit or strategy or how they employ it. Hellbat drops did not see heavy usage in the first couple months in Proleague. Now they are an absolute staple of the top Terran Proleague players and thus now is the time to take a look at the data, watch the games and see what happens. Or do you think Blizzard should have realized it was a "problem" because lots of hellbats were used in your diamond / masters / GM level games on the EU / NA server and people whined about it on TL? Give me a break.
they won't nerf hellbats, just a generic comments until rest of the community stop bitching when korean pros show you how to deal with them.
Remember the medivac and mines outburst earlier on? exactly the same thing as back then. Blizzard have learned from WoL that if you take away too many harass options for Terran, you will get a very stale meta game very quickly in all TvX matchups.
If anything changes, it would be something like marauders now deal bonus dmg to mechanical so they would be even the scale in bio vs mech in TvT
- spotted medivacs speeding up in instead of turning around - medivacs ignore static defenses - medivacs hop around enemy main and natural in plain sight, despite units chasing them
putting the damage on blue flame makes sense. the medivac healing is dumb, but I also don't really think it's the problem except maybe against zerg. in early TvT hellbat drops are worth it even if you just dump them and fly away without healing at all. they just kill workers too fast.
remove bio? healing seems over the top small skirmishes, healing is a huge deal. hellion can or something can try to kite it but with healing, that makes it moot.
Okay, this sounds like a change in the right direction. How about also making Hellbats non-biological until researching the Transformation Servos upgrade, or tie it to something like Combat Shields?
I think the 2 main problems with Hellbats is the timing and cost.
First, what is the point of the servos upgrade, if you can get the hellbat right off the bat? Plus, early Hellbats close the option of utilizing hellions in ANY way
Second, it is the cheapest Terran drop ever, meaning that you won't lose much if your drop fails!
Fully loaded hellbat drop: 300 mins and 100 gas.
Hell, even a 8 marine drop is more expensive (500 minerals and 100 gas).
Solution: Make Hellbat into a good mid-late unit while slightly increased build time and cost but with potentially better unit stats
On June 11 2013 12:44 TXRaunchy wrote: hell bat so already op. make it the size of a tank where its 1 per medivac. or add some gas on that hoe and needing a tech lab to build.
you know 2 tanks fit in a medivac right? and adding gas on hellbats makes no sense, the hellion is just the same vehicle as the hellbat and the hellion costs no gas to build.
they're saying that hellbat looks too strong in tvt (so i'm assuming it is balanced in other matches). However, nerfing it so that you need the inferno upgrades will nerf the already-balanced matchups..
On June 11 2013 12:55 usethis2 wrote: It feels quite wrong when I see;
- spotted medivacs speeding up in instead of turning around - medivacs ignore static defenses - medivacs hop around enemy main and natural in plain sight, despite units chasing them
I'm Terran and I kind of agree with that: it doesn't seem like you should be allowed to do all of what you do with a medivac currently (regardless of all balance concerns). Still very fun to use though ;D
maybe make medivacs healing hellbats an upgrade? either from techlab fact or starport. I think that would let Terrans who plan to go HBs lategame to still do but make the dropping alot less forgiving.
On June 11 2013 13:03 Voodoo[z] wrote: I agree with those saying just remove the heal. I really don't understand why they were ever heal-able to begin with...
They are heal-able because blizzard wanted to see hellbats in action with the bio ball (especially in tvp). period.
On June 11 2013 12:06 LTY wrote: god people complain too much man
I'd like to complain about people who complain about people complaining...
On Topic: Seems to me the Pre-Ignitor change is the way to go. A small HP nerf sounds good, but I feel that would make Hellbats pretty obsolete in large scale engagements. It seems pretty unanimous that Hellbats are only potentially OP in their drop potential so I fully expect whatever change Blizz makes to reflect that.
On June 11 2013 13:05 Waxangel wrote: fix the medivac, not the hellbat
harassment has become so easy it's no longer impressive
I always thought they should change the turn radius on the medivac when it boosted. Just change the way in controls so it can't stop on a dime and zip in every direction. Hell, phoenixes are harder to control than a boosted medivac.
On June 11 2013 13:05 Waxangel wrote: fix the medivac, not the hellbat
harassment has become so easy it's no longer impressive
I always thought they should change the turn radius on the medivac when it boosted. Just change the way in controls so it can't stop on a dime and zip in every direction. Hell, phoenixes are harder to control than a boosted medivac.
maybe make the boost like a dash, locking you in your current direction for its duration. wouldn't solve all the problems, but it would at least prevent medivacs from being invincible
Obviously we'd like to see how they turn out in the coming weeks, but initially we're thinking:
1. Too easy to execute 2. Especially in TvT, not a lot of risk to doing them (when you don't lose the Medivac) 3. Might be too early before defenses can be ready
Rather than jumping to conclusions right now, we'll keep a close eye on it and if in fact Hellbat drops do turn out too strong, we'll do something like rolling in some of their damage with the Infernal Pre igniter upgrade..
He forgot a really important part ... totally boring to watch and impossible to follow for an observer if you have several of them going on at the same time in TvT.
Please, If a player can control several drops at once, an observer should have 0 problems keeping track of them.
Oh come on ... a progamer has a much easier time jumping to spot A and do something and then jumping to spots B, C and D in about a second than an observer has to "find out what happens there on the screen". Just watch TLO play and you will see that it is hard to follow his gameplan for the spots he checks (about three per second).
On June 11 2013 10:56 jcroisdale wrote: Something there not even considering is there late game utility. TvP when the terran goes mech, is so much stronger, because the hellbat is such an efficient harassment unit.
The early game attacks are hard, but late game is just as difficult.
It's the ONLY harassment option Mech has at this point. It should be strong.
What's dumb is how strong Helbat drops are as part of bio play especially in the early game. Their late game utility for mech is fine.
Only form of harassment? What about hellions, widow mines, banshees or even ravens?
On June 11 2013 13:05 Waxangel wrote: fix the medivac, not the hellbat
harassment has become so easy it's no longer impressive
I always thought they should change the turn radius on the medivac when it boosted. Just change the way in controls so it can't stop on a dime and zip in every direction. Hell, phoenixes are harder to control than a boosted medivac.
maybe make the boost like a dash, locking you in your current direction for its duration. wouldn't solve all the problems, but it would at least prevent medivacs from being invincible
It would look so stupid when a Terran player dashes his medevac against the bounds of a map, lol.
On June 11 2013 12:22 GhostOwl wrote: Problem is hellbat AND hellbatdrops.
Make speedvac cost 100 energy to use its boost
Require hellbat to be produced from hellion transformation only. The process costs 50 gas or 25 mineral/25 gas. This should fix the "too early" problem. The transformation process should take as long as the current building time for hellbat.
Remove bio tag from hellbat
Leave hellion alone
That should be very reasonable
No ... they wont ever nerf their speed boost that way ... their baby (which should be removed altogether). The only sensible way is to slow down early Hellbat production by requiring a tech lab to make them. You can only build one of them that way and it will add another minute or so to the time when a first double Hellbat drop will show up.
That would totally undo the whole thing which Blizzard tried to implement with HotS ... more aggression and more drops ... so I could also imagine some really stupid solutions - as they did for the 'ZvZ Mutalisk problem' - coming from them instead.
That's not the sensible way at all, the most sensible has already been stated by DK, nerf damage and give BF back. Your solution not only nerfs them, but almost kills HB drops all-together while making Mech even worst then it already is,
Mech is a slow strategy, so you dont require lots of Hellbats at the start. To produce enough of them simply build Hellions (they can be built two at a time) and transform them after getting that upgrade.
Hellbat drops will not be dead, because the Medivac will still have the speed boost and players are notoriously anti-static-defense ... so there will still be a good chance to use it, although not as early as now. You also need to take good care of your first two Hellbats, because they arent reproduced easily.
-----
If the Medivac speed boost gets nerfed they need to reduce the speed of Mutalisks as well. Personally I am all for taking out the turbo boost and taking out the buffs which Mutalisks got.
On June 11 2013 12:54 iky43210 wrote: they won't nerf hellbats, just a generic comments until rest of the community stop bitching when korean pros show you how to deal with them.
Remember the medivac and mines outburst earlier on? exactly the same thing as back then. Blizzard have learned from WoL that if you take away too many harass options for Terran, you will get a very stale meta game very quickly in all TvX matchups.
If anything changes, it would be something like marauders now deal bonus dmg to mechanical so they would be even the scale in bio vs mech in TvT
Something is very wrong if you have to rely on Terran to provide exciting, harass intensive games...I don't think they'd adjust marauder v. mechanical...think of the repercussions in TvP.
I would say make it really crappy unit at the beggining then add tech upgrades like stim , blue flame , too really make it good toward the end game scenario or require the hellbat to have transformation then reduce the cargo space on medivac to two slot once again, but I really just don't like mirror matches on any race, nerfing a unit like hellbat just b/c of tvt is bad b/c what is really paid attention is tvp tvz zvp nerfing a unit just b/c of a mirror match and making it balance could ruin the other 2 matches of terran, also here a link to why tvp tvz zvp is paid attention to more then mirror matches http://i.imgur.com/WL094Y4.png or just look up in "This Week in Starcraft 2: June 1 - 7" article and it well also give you the link to the proof what is paid attention more too.
On June 11 2013 12:54 iky43210 wrote: they won't nerf hellbats, just a generic comments until rest of the community stop bitching when korean pros show you how to deal with them.
Remember the medivac and mines outburst earlier on? exactly the same thing as back then. Blizzard have learned from WoL that if you take away too many harass options for Terran, you will get a very stale meta game very quickly in all TvX matchups.
If anything changes, it would be something like marauders now deal bonus dmg to mechanical so they would be even the scale in bio vs mech in TvT
Something is very wrong if you have to rely on Terran to provide exciting, harass intensive games...I don't think they'd adjust marauder v. mechanical...think of the repercussions in TvP.
I have to agree with you there, but that POV of the community is something which Blizzard has trained their SC2 customers to expect ... fast and full of action. The only way is "up" and so they are adding in speed for harrassment units and harrassment carriers like the Medivac, Warp Prism and the Mutalisk. They simply do not understand that this is TOO MUCH and that games will be decided by a coinflip ... or rather by who can scout his enemy first / better and make the harrassment drops to annihilate the opposing economy before it is done to himself.
On June 11 2013 12:54 iky43210 wrote: they won't nerf hellbats, just a generic comments until rest of the community stop bitching when korean pros show you how to deal with them.
Remember the medivac and mines outburst earlier on? exactly the same thing as back then. Blizzard have learned from WoL that if you take away too many harass options for Terran, you will get a very stale meta game very quickly in all TvX matchups.
If anything changes, it would be something like marauders now deal bonus dmg to mechanical so they would be even the scale in bio vs mech in TvT
Something is very wrong if you have to rely on Terran to provide exciting, harass intensive games...I don't think they'd adjust marauder v. mechanical...think of the repercussions in TvP.
well, its just how Terran is designed. They have weaker T3 units and rely on harasses and pressure to keep up the equilibrium.
On June 11 2013 13:05 Waxangel wrote: fix the medivac, not the hellbat
harassment has become so easy it's no longer impressive
I always thought they should change the turn radius on the medivac when it boosted. Just change the way in controls so it can't stop on a dime and zip in every direction. Hell, phoenixes are harder to control than a boosted medivac.
As a terran I just LOVE the medivac. But objectively speaking, it may be a bit much. I feel a lot less risk in doing drops because I know in most situations I will be able to pick something off and escape with little loss. I still think that the hellbat needs an early game fix though. Someone in here said that late game they are too strong but you know what I hate late game... DT's and zealots in my main, I'm just saying that we all have our FU late game harrass but noone really has early game harrass as cheap and effective as hellbats.
On June 11 2013 13:05 Waxangel wrote: fix the medivac, not the hellbat
harassment has become so easy it's no longer impressive
Yeah! i definetly agree. As a mech-player the biggest adaption i have made when changing over to hots, is looking at the minimap all the time in tvt, and placing marines around the edges of the map alot more than i used to to be able to spot drops, also i kinda make sensors every tvt that goes to 3+ bases.
Turrets don't help you at all, unless you make A TON of them... i miss the range of bw turrets.
On June 11 2013 13:40 never_Nal wrote: Specially on TvT? WTH really didn't you guys watch how MVP dealt with those hellbat drops, helions out micro hellbats and shit
yeah, but you are kinda forced into specific openings just by the threath of hellbat drops. 1 rax cc into 3 rax isen't viable anymore, and everyone gets quick starports to make vikings early before they make any number of medivacs with bio builds...
On June 11 2013 12:54 iky43210 wrote: they won't nerf hellbats, just a generic comments until rest of the community stop bitching when korean pros show you how to deal with them.
Remember the medivac and mines outburst earlier on? exactly the same thing as back then. Blizzard have learned from WoL that if you take away too many harass options for Terran, you will get a very stale meta game very quickly in all TvX matchups.
If anything changes, it would be something like marauders now deal bonus dmg to mechanical so they would be even the scale in bio vs mech in TvT
Something is very wrong if you have to rely on Terran to provide exciting, harass intensive games...I don't think they'd adjust marauder v. mechanical...think of the repercussions in TvP.
well, its just how Terran is designed. They have weaker T3 units and rely on harasses and pressure to keep up the equilibrium.
I said "rely on Terran," not "If Terran has to rely on," lol. What I'm saying is that something is WRONG with the MU if Terran is the only race capable of consistently providing entertaining, harass intensive games. It means that the other races lack aggressive potential and are pidgeonholed into defending until the Terran aggression dwindles or they can hit a timing.
I mean, I'm primarily speaking from a Z perspective here.
On June 11 2013 12:22 GhostOwl wrote: Problem is hellbat AND hellbatdrops.
Make speedvac cost 100 energy to use its boost
Require hellbat to be produced from hellion transformation only. The process costs 50 gas or 25 mineral/25 gas. This should fix the "too early" problem. The transformation process should take as long as the current building time for hellbat.
Remove bio tag from hellbat
Leave hellion alone
That should be very reasonable
No ... they wont ever nerf their speed boost that way ... their baby (which should be removed altogether). The only sensible way is to slow down early Hellbat production by requiring a tech lab to make them. You can only build one of them that way and it will add another minute or so to the time when a first double Hellbat drop will show up.
That would totally undo the whole thing which Blizzard tried to implement with HotS ... more aggression and more drops ... so I could also imagine some really stupid solutions - as they did for the 'ZvZ Mutalisk problem' - coming from them instead.
That's not the sensible way at all, the most sensible has already been stated by DK, nerf damage and give BF back. Your solution not only nerfs them, but almost kills HB drops all-together while making Mech even worst then it already is,
Mech is a slow strategy, so you dont require lots of Hellbats at the start. To produce enough of them simply build Hellions (they can be built two at a time) and transform them after getting that upgrade.
Hellbat drops will not be dead, because the Medivac will still have the speed boost and players are notoriously anti-static-defense ... so there will still be a good chance to use it, although not as early as now. You also need to take good care of your first two Hellbats, because they arent reproduced easily.
-----
If the Medivac speed boost gets nerfed they need to reduce the speed of Mutalisks as well. Personally I am all for taking out the turbo boost and taking out the buffs which Mutalisks got.
Except mutalisk harrassment is a costly investment with high risk, high reward, while hellbat drops are low cost ,high reward. Please dont have the -"dont nerf my race bro" attitude..we're trying to make the game for all of us by making it fair and balanced. You KNOW hellbats are a problem when even Terran players are complaining its ruining TvT, which is a red flag saying its even worse for other races.
On June 11 2013 11:19 snakeeyez wrote: I think innovation did hellbat drops every single match in tvt. The metagame is all about HPM for hellbats per minute.
Nope Innovation went hellions into bio game 2, Mvp was the one who tried hellbat drops and was denied multiple times.
Yo David Kim; medivacs healing hellbats make massive no sense at all, not that hard to think about it, no need to prove how it works and what not, it simply makes no sense.
On June 11 2013 12:54 iky43210 wrote: they won't nerf hellbats, just a generic comments until rest of the community stop bitching when korean pros show you how to deal with them.
Remember the medivac and mines outburst earlier on? exactly the same thing as back then. Blizzard have learned from WoL that if you take away too many harass options for Terran, you will get a very stale meta game very quickly in all TvX matchups.
If anything changes, it would be something like marauders now deal bonus dmg to mechanical so they would be even the scale in bio vs mech in TvT
Something is very wrong if you have to rely on Terran to provide exciting, harass intensive games...I don't think they'd adjust marauder v. mechanical...think of the repercussions in TvP.
I have to agree with you there, but that POV of the community is something which Blizzard has trained their SC2 customers to expect ... fast and full of action. The only way is "up" and so they are adding in speed for harrassment units and harrassment carriers like the Medivac, Warp Prism and the Mutalisk. They simply do not understand that this is TOO MUCH and that games will be decided by a coinflip ... or rather by who can scout his enemy first / better and make the harrassment drops to annihilate the opposing economy before it is done to himself.
I'm shooting the breeze, but I don't know if the problem is so much too much harassment so much as units that are passively good at harassment rather than units that can be good at harassment if controlled properly. I was never big fan of the idea of a more tanky, slower version of the hellion that sprays splash damage (and can be healed and therefore is even more tanky.) Rather than tightening up hellion attack-retreat micro.
On June 11 2013 12:54 iky43210 wrote: they won't nerf hellbats, just a generic comments until rest of the community stop bitching when korean pros show you how to deal with them.
Remember the medivac and mines outburst earlier on? exactly the same thing as back then. Blizzard have learned from WoL that if you take away too many harass options for Terran, you will get a very stale meta game very quickly in all TvX matchups.
If anything changes, it would be something like marauders now deal bonus dmg to mechanical so they would be even the scale in bio vs mech in TvT
Something is very wrong if you have to rely on Terran to provide exciting, harass intensive games...I don't think they'd adjust marauder v. mechanical...think of the repercussions in TvP.
I have to agree with you there, but that POV of the community is something which Blizzard has trained their SC2 customers to expect ... fast and full of action. The only way is "up" and so they are adding in speed for harrassment units and harrassment carriers like the Medivac, Warp Prism and the Mutalisk. They simply do not understand that this is TOO MUCH and that games will be decided by a coinflip ... or rather by who can scout his enemy first / better and make the harrassment drops to annihilate the opposing economy before it is done to himself.
I'm shooting the breeze, but I don't know if the problem is so much too much harassment so much as units that are passively good at harassment rather than units that can be good at harassment if controlled properly. I was never big fan of the idea of a more tanky, slower version of the hellion that sprays splash damage (and can be healed and therefore is more tanky.) Rather than tightening up hellion attack-retreat micro.
leave them the same and give us lurkers and reavers! Imba sh1t ftw.
I know this isn't going to happen I admit the Hellbat could be nerfed, but let's just be careful this doesn't turn into Wings of Liberty again. Facing Hellbat drops as a Zerg has given me nightmares, but has also made me a better player.
Definitely like the idea of drastically nerfing hellbat damage before pre-igniter upgrade. Hope that's the direction that Blizzard decides to take.
I would like to keep the medivac healing in the game (or make that an upgrade) because Terran could use the hellbat/bio synergy against lategame Protoss deathball.
On June 11 2013 10:56 jcroisdale wrote: Something there not even considering is there late game utility. TvP when the terran goes mech, is so much stronger, because the hellbat is such an efficient harassment unit.
The early game attacks are hard, but late game is just as difficult.
It's the ONLY harassment option Mech has at this point. It should be strong.
What's dumb is how strong Helbat drops are as part of bio play especially in the early game. Their late game utility for mech is fine.
Not Really. Hellbats may be good with bio in the earlier stages but as the game goes on, its just way too difficult to crush a mech player because Hellbats tank so much damage AND they deal a lot of damage. So it could be a good change to make bio a bit stronger in tvt since the maps don't leave much space to like bypass mechplayers or to surround them.
On June 11 2013 12:22 GhostOwl wrote: Problem is hellbat AND hellbatdrops.
Make speedvac cost 100 energy to use its boost
Require hellbat to be produced from hellion transformation only. The process costs 50 gas or 25 mineral/25 gas. This should fix the "too early" problem. The transformation process should take as long as the current building time for hellbat.
Remove bio tag from hellbat
Leave hellion alone
That should be very reasonable
No ... they wont ever nerf their speed boost that way ... their baby (which should be removed altogether). The only sensible way is to slow down early Hellbat production by requiring a tech lab to make them. You can only build one of them that way and it will add another minute or so to the time when a first double Hellbat drop will show up.
That would totally undo the whole thing which Blizzard tried to implement with HotS ... more aggression and more drops ... so I could also imagine some really stupid solutions - as they did for the 'ZvZ Mutalisk problem' - coming from them instead.
That's not the sensible way at all, the most sensible has already been stated by DK, nerf damage and give BF back. Your solution not only nerfs them, but almost kills HB drops all-together while making Mech even worst then it already is,
Mech is a slow strategy, so you dont require lots of Hellbats at the start. To produce enough of them simply build Hellions (they can be built two at a time) and transform them after getting that upgrade.
Hellbat drops will not be dead, because the Medivac will still have the speed boost and players are notoriously anti-static-defense ... so there will still be a good chance to use it, although not as early as now. You also need to take good care of your first two Hellbats, because they arent reproduced easily.
-----
If the Medivac speed boost gets nerfed they need to reduce the speed of Mutalisks as well. Personally I am all for taking out the turbo boost and taking out the buffs which Mutalisks got.
Except mutalisk harrassment is a costly investment with high risk, high reward, while hellbat drops are low cost ,high reward. Please dont have the -"dont nerf my race bro" attitude..we're trying to make the game for all of us by making it fair and balanced. You KNOW hellbats are a problem when even Terran players are complaining its ruining TvT, which is a red flag saying its even worse for other races.
Hellbats are a problem .. that much is clear ... but a big part of the problem is the Medivac speed boost, which makes dropping them ridiculously easy and safe. Buffing static AA - like they did for the "ZvZ Mutalisk problem" - isnt the right answer, because it would make bases too safe against drops.
It doesnt matter if Mutalisks are a "costly investment" ... they - the speed and regeneration buffed ones - were turning out to be a big problem in ZvZ and required a "specialised fix". That was a bad solution since it didnt remove the cause of the problem ... so I expect a similarly stupid "solution" for the Hellbat.
Lets just hope they DONT add in the Warp Prism speed buff, because it is right along the same line ...
Kim's solution is stupid because it is a significant nerf to bio/hellbat play. Not really worth mixing them in if you need to invest 150/150 extra (plus get a tech-lab fac). I guess Blizzard just loves marine marauder...
I think one of the biggest problems with the hellbat drop itself is not only the hellbat, but the actual medivac. To be more specific it's the medivac boost. It allows for fast drops totally bypassing 1-2 shots from base defenses to drop on top of a mineral line. The boost also allows for hellbats to be hotdropped on groups of clumped workers as well. I still think that the medivac boost should at least cost some energy as well.
Since no one really uses the transformation upgrade for the hellbat/hellion why not make them 2 separate units and make the hellbat cost minerals and gas? Like 150 - 50 or something.
Marine-Marauder-Medivac doesn't use that much gas as Terrans going bio always seems to have too much gas banked up.
On June 11 2013 14:27 superpanda27 wrote: I think one of the biggest problems with the hellbat drop itself is not only the hellbat, but the actual medivac. To be more specific it's the medivac boost. It allows for fast drops totally bypassing 1-2 shots from base defenses to drop on top of a mineral line. The boost also allows for hellbats to be hotdropped on groups of clumped workers as well. I still think that the medivac boost should at least cost some energy as well.
Since no one really uses the transformation upgrade for the hellbat/hellion why not make them 2 separate units and make the hellbat cost minerals and gas? Like 150 - 50 or something.
And we'll never see a hellbat again. I see you favour the Blizzard nerf strategy -- nerf anything slightly too strong to the fucking ground.
On June 11 2013 14:27 superpanda27 wrote: I think one of the biggest problems with the hellbat drop itself is not only the hellbat, but the actual medivac. To be more specific it's the medivac boost. It allows for fast drops totally bypassing 1-2 shots from base defenses to drop on top of a mineral line. The boost also allows for hellbats to be hotdropped on groups of clumped workers as well. I still think that the medivac boost should at least cost some energy as well.
Since no one really uses the transformation upgrade for the hellbat/hellion why not make them 2 separate units and make the hellbat cost minerals and gas? Like 150 - 50 or something.
And we'll never see a hellbat again. I see you favour the Blizzard nerf strategy -- nerf anything slightly too strong to the fucking ground.
And hellbats are too efficient anyways, they have to be toned down anyways. What do you suggest they do to the hellbat?
On June 11 2013 14:28 Sufinsil wrote: I would like to see a test map with Afterburner costing energy and Hellbats receiving a slower rate of healing from medivacs.
That would not stop the early drops ... unless you made it cost 100 energy, at which point it would become pointless.
On June 11 2013 14:28 Sufinsil wrote: I would like to see a test map with Afterburner costing energy and Hellbats receiving a slower rate of healing from medivacs.
That would not stop the early drops ... unless you made it cost 100 energy, at which point it would become pointless.
The point isn't to stop them. Making them more of a risk or harder to use is a fine goal.
To all the people suggesting that the speedvac should be nerfed/removed, I think that it would become a huge problem for Terrans in big engagements against Zerg. Right now if you lose an engagement against muta ling banes, you can stim your bio and boost your medivacs and hope that the reinforcement will come in time to save what's left of your army.
Without the boost and given how fast mutas are right now, you would automatically lose all your bio (that stays back to protect the medivacs) or lose all your gas investment in an instant. With that kind of risk, you really don't want to risk an engagement that could turn badly, which might lead to a much more cautious and turtle-y style of play for terrans, which is both boring to watch and to play.
I'm not saying that speedvac + hellbats are not a problem, but I think that Blizz should concentrate on nerfing the hellbat and not the medivac.
On June 11 2013 13:05 Waxangel wrote: fix the medivac, not the hellbat
harassment has become so easy it's no longer impressive
Why in the world would you want this? The whole point David Kim was trying to make is that he wants offensive harassment to be easier. Nerfing the Medivac speed would just hinder this leading to stale defensive games like in WOL especially now that Zerg has stronger defensive mechanisms (Muta Speed / Vipers). That's why also they want to give the Warp Prism speed to encourage harassment.
Also win rates are pretty much balanced, so the Medivac is not breaking any matchups. The Hellbat is just making the meta-game really boring, that's all. I sense a subtle balance whine in this post.
On June 11 2013 12:22 GhostOwl wrote: Problem is hellbat AND hellbatdrops.
Make speedvac cost 100 energy to use its boost
Require hellbat to be produced from hellion transformation only. The process costs 50 gas or 25 mineral/25 gas. This should fix the "too early" problem. The transformation process should take as long as the current building time for hellbat.
Remove bio tag from hellbat
Leave hellion alone
That should be very reasonable
Indeed, and nerf marine/marauder damage to half, and siege tank range to 2/3 of what it is. Also walking must be researched in a tech lab, before that no barracks unit should be able to move.
On June 11 2013 14:34 GudulesmSC2 wrote: To all the people suggesting that the speedvac should be nerfed/removed, I think that it would become a huge problem for Terrans in big engagements against Zerg. Right now if you lose an engagement against muta ling banes, you can stim your bio and boost your medivacs and hope that the reinforcement will come in time to save what's left of your army.
Without the boost and given how fast mutas are right now, you would automatically lose all your bio (that stays back to protect the medivacs) or lose all your gas investment in an instant. With that kind of risk, you really don't want to risk an engagement that could turn badly, which might lead to a much more cautious and turtle-y style of play for terrans, which is both boring to watch and to play.
I'm not saying that speedvac + hellbats are not a problem, but I think that Blizz should concentrate on nerfing the hellbat and not the medivac.
My 2 cents.
Well half the problem of the hellbat drop is the medivac itself, because of the boost being able circumvent bases. Usually a player only builds 1-2 anti-air defenses which doesn't kill the drop before it can drop the hellbats on a mineral line. The next problem is that hellbats only cost 100 minerals yet they are so strong.
I should say that the drops themselves need to have more risk involved with them. Watching a lot of pro games, hellbat drops do not seem to have a huge risk, because even the threat of them does damage.
On June 11 2013 13:05 Waxangel wrote: fix the medivac, not the hellbat
harassment has become so easy it's no longer impressive
Why in the world would you want this? The whole point David Kim was trying to make is that he wants offensive harassment to be easier. Nerfing the Medivac speed would just hinder this leading to stale defensive games like in WOL especially now that Zerg has stronger defensive mechanisms (Muta Speed / Vipers). That's why also they want to give the Warp Prism speed to encourage harassment.
Also win rates are pretty much balanced, so the Medivac is not breaking any matchups. The Hellbat is just making the meta-game really boring, that's all. I sense a subtle balance whine in this post.
why on earth did you have end your post with "I disagree with your opinion so I will try to paint you as someone who is speaking unobjectively"?
On June 11 2013 12:54 iky43210 wrote: they won't nerf hellbats, just a generic comments until rest of the community stop bitching when korean pros show you how to deal with them.
Remember the medivac and mines outburst earlier on? exactly the same thing as back then. Blizzard have learned from WoL that if you take away too many harass options for Terran, you will get a very stale meta game very quickly in all TvX matchups.
If anything changes, it would be something like marauders now deal bonus dmg to mechanical so they would be even the scale in bio vs mech in TvT
Something is very wrong if you have to rely on Terran to provide exciting, harass intensive games...I don't think they'd adjust marauder v. mechanical...think of the repercussions in TvP.
I have to agree with you there, but that POV of the community is something which Blizzard has trained their SC2 customers to expect ... fast and full of action. The only way is "up" and so they are adding in speed for harrassment units and harrassment carriers like the Medivac, Warp Prism and the Mutalisk. They simply do not understand that this is TOO MUCH and that games will be decided by a coinflip ... or rather by who can scout his enemy first / better and make the harrassment drops to annihilate the opposing economy before it is done to himself.
I'm shooting the breeze, but I don't know if the problem is so much too much harassment so much as units that are passively good at harassment rather than units that can be good at harassment if controlled properly. I was never big fan of the idea of a more tanky, slower version of the hellion that sprays splash damage (and can be healed and therefore is even more tanky.) Rather than tightening up hellion attack-retreat micro.
A big point of the Hellbat is that it is a braindead unit to use and requires almost no skill. You just need to drive the Medivac and drop the Hellbats ... and since it is only two units you are dropping it is a rather "fast damage output" compared to the time it takes to drop eight Marines for example. I had thought of adjusting the time it takes to drop out the second unit according with its supply cost, but such a change could possibly nerf any "Thor micro drop" too.
Add skill requirement not speed We all would like to see more units which reward "player control skill" more, but the truth of the matter is that this is SC2 and massive armies and huge reproduction capabilities are what Browder thinks is exciting instead of precise micro. Its like those movies, where the director of the sequel thinks that his one will be automatically better than the first if the special effects budget goes through the roof ... that can be the case, but it more than often fails to be true.
To get to "a better Starcraft 2" we really need a redesign of the core elements of - unit control and movement ... which need to be toned down to reduce the unit density and allow for more control - economy and unit production capability ... since you have a lower unit density in an area of battle you need to produce fewer units.
As a result the game would have to rely much more on player skill to keep their units alive (instead of simply reproducing them wave after wave) since every unit is valuable or to outmaneuver your opponent and kill more efficiently. The battles would not be much shorter since the total dps of the armies would be lower, which means units die slower. As an added benefit you could finally take out crutch spells like Forcefield, which really restrict map makers in what they can do in the middle of the map.
1. WTF is easy? are they more ez then dt or A move lings after a 7 pool? 2. (when you don't lose the Medivac) = lolololololol. every strategy is strong if you don't counter it properly 3. to early? you have no units if you do this too early, and if your enemy doesn't have defense he should have offense to punish you. if he has neither of them, its his problem he was too greedy.
damn you flash and innovation! you make T look imba
I say the solution is to boost Missile Turret damage.
The big problem is, even if it's a oneway trip, 2 Turrets, optimally placed still don't kill an incoming medivac before it has a chance to drop both Hellbats. Boost Turret damage so that they have a good chance of killing the Medivac as it comes in and then they are readily stopped.
As is, Terrain Anti-air is limited to marines and maybe a few vikings at the time when Hellbat drops can start. Marines are easily munched by aid Hellbats, if they are in position at all, and Viking Production means cutting your own medivacs for counter-drops. Besides, Vikings aren't optimal vs Medivacs, they are too slow to keep up and track well.
Hellbat for me is a very weird unit. Its like trying to crossbreed two completely different units.
Hellion - Fast - Vehicular unit - Ranged Straightshooting AOE - Blue Flame Upgrade - Cargo Size 2 Hellbat - Slow - Biological unit - Splashy shortranged attack - No Blue Flame upgrade - Cargo Size 4
Design-wise, why will the cargo size increase for the same unit? Is it because they are not propely packed? Also, why no BF upgrade? After transforming the driver should change the gas tank? Oh yeah, why can you heal the Hellbat? Both units are operated by the same driver.
My suggestion is to take out the Transformation Servos upgrade, making them two different units. Give the hellbat a higher supply cost (since you have increased the cargo size) and higher build cost (Please add Vespene as Hellbats OBVIOUSLY use gas) and lastly no healing as you wanted this to become a mech unit anyway. If Hellbats needs to be healed, then you should heal Tanks, Thors, and Vikings since they have drivers too.
On June 11 2013 12:54 iky43210 wrote: they won't nerf hellbats, just a generic comments until rest of the community stop bitching when korean pros show you how to deal with them.
Remember the medivac and mines outburst earlier on? exactly the same thing as back then. Blizzard have learned from WoL that if you take away too many harass options for Terran, you will get a very stale meta game very quickly in all TvX matchups.
If anything changes, it would be something like marauders now deal bonus dmg to mechanical so they would be even the scale in bio vs mech in TvT
Something is very wrong if you have to rely on Terran to provide exciting, harass intensive games...I don't think they'd adjust marauder v. mechanical...think of the repercussions in TvP.
I have to agree with you there, but that POV of the community is something which Blizzard has trained their SC2 customers to expect ... fast and full of action. The only way is "up" and so they are adding in speed for harrassment units and harrassment carriers like the Medivac, Warp Prism and the Mutalisk. They simply do not understand that this is TOO MUCH and that games will be decided by a coinflip ... or rather by who can scout his enemy first / better and make the harrassment drops to annihilate the opposing economy before it is done to himself.
I'm shooting the breeze, but I don't know if the problem is so much too much harassment so much as units that are passively good at harassment rather than units that can be good at harassment if controlled properly. I was never big fan of the idea of a more tanky, slower version of the hellion that sprays splash damage (and can be healed and therefore is even more tanky.) Rather than tightening up hellion attack-retreat micro.
A big point of the Hellbat is that it is a braindead unit to use and requires almost no skill. You just need to drive the Medivac and drop the Hellbats ... and since it is only two units you are dropping it is a rather "fast damage output" compared to the time it takes to drop eight Marines for example. I had thought of adjusting the time it takes to drop out the second unit according with its supply cost, but such a change could possibly nerf any "Thor micro drop" too.
Add skill requirement not speed We all would like to see more units which reward "player control skill" more, but the truth of the matter is that this is SC2 and massive armies and huge reproduction capabilities are what Browder thinks is exciting instead of precise micro. Its like those movies, where the director of the sequel thinks that his one will be automatically better than the first if the special effects budget goes through the roof ... that can be the case, but it more than often fails to be true.
To get to "a better Starcraft 2" we really need a redesign of the core elements of - unit control and movement ... which need to be toned down to reduce the unit density and allow for more control - economy and unit production capability ... since you have a lower unit density in an area of battle you need to produce fewer units.
As a result the game would have to rely much more on player skill to keep their units alive (instead of simply reproducing them wave after wave) since every unit is valuable or to outmaneuver your opponent and kill more efficiently. The battles would not be much shorter since the total dps of the armies would be lower, which means units die slower. As an added benefit you could finally take out crutch spells like Forcefield, which really restrict map makers in what they can do in the middle of the map.
People have been asking for similar changes for years now. It's just not going to happen. They will change numbers and maybe something like the bio tag. They will not fundamentally change the structure of the game. I will be more than happy if Blizzard proved me wrong.
On June 11 2013 13:05 Waxangel wrote: fix the medivac, not the hellbat
harassment has become so easy it's no longer impressive
Why in the world would you want this? The whole point David Kim was trying to make is that he wants offensive harassment to be easier. Nerfing the Medivac speed would just hinder this leading to stale defensive games like in WOL especially now that Zerg has stronger defensive mechanisms (Muta Speed / Vipers). That's why also they want to give the Warp Prism speed to encourage harassment.
Also win rates are pretty much balanced, so the Medivac is not breaking any matchups. The Hellbat is just making the meta-game really boring, that's all. I sense a subtle balance whine in this post.
why on earth did you have end your post with "I disagree with your opinion so I will try to paint you as someone who is speaking unobjectively"?
I interpreted it as Terran players multitasking harassment with Medivacs is really easy. And it's giving players undeserved wins.
So what does "harassment has become so easy it's no longer impressive" quote supposed to mean?
On June 11 2013 14:50 c0olL wrote: 1. WTF is easy? are they more ez then dt or A move lings after a 7 pool? 2. (when you don't lose the Medivac) = lolololololol. every strategy is strong if you don't counter it properly 3. to early? you have no units if you do this too early, and if your enemy doesn't have defense he should have offense to punish you. if he has neither of them, its his problem he was too greedy.
damn you flash and innovation! you make T look imba
Controlling your lings after a cheese-pool is not easy because you only have VERY FEW and NO ECONOMY TO SPEAK OF and A LONG WAY TO REINFORCE.
DTs cost 125/125 each and have 120 total hit points and shield. Hellbats cost 100/0 and have 135 hit points. The investment for a Hellbat drop is MUCH lower AND it comes much faster than a DT harrassment.
If the opponent does not have any defense to fend off the harrass you will end up killing his economy and after that you can take the Hellbats back to defend your base. Terrans have those things which are called WALLS and it takes a big effort to break through them.
On June 11 2013 14:27 superpanda27 wrote: I think one of the biggest problems with the hellbat drop itself is not only the hellbat, but the actual medivac. To be more specific it's the medivac boost. It allows for fast drops totally bypassing 1-2 shots from base defenses to drop on top of a mineral line. The boost also allows for hellbats to be hotdropped on groups of clumped workers as well. I still think that the medivac boost should at least cost some energy as well.
Since no one really uses the transformation upgrade for the hellbat/hellion why not make them 2 separate units and make the hellbat cost minerals and gas? Like 150 - 50 or something.
And we'll never see a hellbat again. I see you favour the Blizzard nerf strategy -- nerf anything slightly too strong to the fucking ground.
And hellbats are too efficient anyways, they have to be toned down anyways. What do you suggest they do to the hellbat?
No, nobody is saying they are too strong in a straight-up fight, except perhaps dishonest P/Z players that are happy for any T nerf. It's the drops that are too strong and low-risk, primarily in TvT.
the problem is the god damn medivac, now blizzard cant add units than have good stats to compensate for low speed because the speedbost negates disadvantages
drops can be scouted and prepared for 2 minutes in advance and they still will fly into statics and units and be costefficient nevertheless
god this unit is so silly seriously the medivac boost looks like a left over april fools in the game
harassment for terran is just no longer impressive, its piss easy to execute, there isnt even any decisionmaking involved in building dropsships as u want to have them anyways for bio and for mech as well in hots which is just a joke
On June 11 2013 12:54 iky43210 wrote: they won't nerf hellbats, just a generic comments until rest of the community stop bitching when korean pros show you how to deal with them.
Remember the medivac and mines outburst earlier on? exactly the same thing as back then. Blizzard have learned from WoL that if you take away too many harass options for Terran, you will get a very stale meta game very quickly in all TvX matchups.
If anything changes, it would be something like marauders now deal bonus dmg to mechanical so they would be even the scale in bio vs mech in TvT
Something is very wrong if you have to rely on Terran to provide exciting, harass intensive games...I don't think they'd adjust marauder v. mechanical...think of the repercussions in TvP.
I have to agree with you there, but that POV of the community is something which Blizzard has trained their SC2 customers to expect ... fast and full of action. The only way is "up" and so they are adding in speed for harrassment units and harrassment carriers like the Medivac, Warp Prism and the Mutalisk. They simply do not understand that this is TOO MUCH and that games will be decided by a coinflip ... or rather by who can scout his enemy first / better and make the harrassment drops to annihilate the opposing economy before it is done to himself.
I'm shooting the breeze, but I don't know if the problem is so much too much harassment so much as units that are passively good at harassment rather than units that can be good at harassment if controlled properly. I was never big fan of the idea of a more tanky, slower version of the hellion that sprays splash damage (and can be healed and therefore is even more tanky.) Rather than tightening up hellion attack-retreat micro.
A big point of the Hellbat is that it is a braindead unit to use and requires almost no skill. You just need to drive the Medivac and drop the Hellbats ... and since it is only two units you are dropping it is a rather "fast damage output" compared to the time it takes to drop eight Marines for example. I had thought of adjusting the time it takes to drop out the second unit according with its supply cost, but such a change could possibly nerf any "Thor micro drop" too.
Add skill requirement not speed We all would like to see more units which reward "player control skill" more, but the truth of the matter is that this is SC2 and massive armies and huge reproduction capabilities are what Browder thinks is exciting instead of precise micro. Its like those movies, where the director of the sequel thinks that his one will be automatically better than the first if the special effects budget goes through the roof ... that can be the case, but it more than often fails to be true.
To get to "a better Starcraft 2" we really need a redesign of the core elements of - unit control and movement ... which need to be toned down to reduce the unit density and allow for more control - economy and unit production capability ... since you have a lower unit density in an area of battle you need to produce fewer units.
As a result the game would have to rely much more on player skill to keep their units alive (instead of simply reproducing them wave after wave) since every unit is valuable or to outmaneuver your opponent and kill more efficiently. The battles would not be much shorter since the total dps of the armies would be lower, which means units die slower. As an added benefit you could finally take out crutch spells like Forcefield, which really restrict map makers in what they can do in the middle of the map.
People have been asking for similar changes for years now. It's just not going to happen. They will change numbers and maybe something like the bio tag. They will not fundamentally change the structure of the game. I will be more than happy if Blizzard proved me wrong.
The big question is: Do you agree with me that it would make the game better to reduce the unit density?
If YES then there can be no harm in asking for it for the 356.798th time, because Blizzard might eventually get it. If NO then please explain why.
If enough people say they agree with this Blizzard will have to take note and maybe do something ... and the only hope I still have of them actually doing it is after LotV, but seeing the ridiculous units they added in HotS I fear for what is coming next. SC2 may be totally ridiculous after that, but every ridiculous unit they add increases the chance of having the penny drop for Browder and Kim.
On June 11 2013 14:50 c0olL wrote: 1. WTF is easy? are they more ez then dt or A move lings after a 7 pool? 2. (when you don't lose the Medivac) = lolololololol. every strategy is strong if you don't counter it properly 3. to early? you have no units if you do this too early, and if your enemy doesn't have defense he should have offense to punish you. if he has neither of them, its his problem he was too greedy.
damn you flash and innovation! you make T look imba
A 7 pool is an all in. DT puts you behind if it doesn't work. The whole point is that doing hellbat drops are too easy for the cost investment. Your comparisons make no sense.
And why they aren't looking into proxy oracles in PvT? Too easy for protoss too execute. Almost always guaranteed damage, unless terran opened mines first which is actually shit against everything else (that's why it usually doesn't happen). Hits way too early, and the only proper way to hold is early scout and very early ebay.
Make it so you must get the upgrade and actually transform hellions into hellbats in order to use hellbats. Then, they will take long enough that they aren't easy to abuse -cough- TvT -cough-. If that isn't enough, then nerf their damage along with their health.
It's pretty fucking clear that they are too strong. A player basically (Innovation) went through the largest tournament (which happens to be an official Blizzard tournament...) using hellbat drops almost every game. When there are tournaments and prize-money (in the thousands) on the line, they better make damn sure there isn't overpowered shit in the game. "Waiting and seeing what happens" is what they should have done the first two weeks of HotS. This tournament was a VERY clear indication.
Also as an above poster said... Oracles are a bad (poorly designed | easy to use) unit, nerf them already. 2-shotting workers in less than a second is stupid. But that's somewhat off-topic.
Note I play Terran. I refuse to use hellbats, though I use widowmines occasionally.
On June 11 2013 14:50 c0olL wrote: 1. WTF is easy? are they more ez then dt or A move lings after a 7 pool? 2. (when you don't lose the Medivac) = lolololololol. every strategy is strong if you don't counter it properly 3. to early? you have no units if you do this too early, and if your enemy doesn't have defense he should have offense to punish you. if he has neither of them, its his problem he was too greedy.
damn you flash and innovation! you make T look imba
It only takes one medivac to boost in dropping hellbats to wreck a mineral line in a matter of seconds. No player wants to build 3-5 base defenses in each base to stop a drop fairly early in the game. It's a cheap drop, which T can do to keep a player in their base, kill their workers, or at the very least keep forcing loss mining time. Terran does not fall significantly behind if they hellbat drop whereas if the DT opening fails or 7 pool fails, the player is immensely behind.
On June 11 2013 15:04 Blargh wrote: A player basically (Innovation) went through the largest tournament (which happens to be an official Blizzard tournament...) using hellbat drops almost every game. When there are tournaments and prize-money (in the thousands) on the line, they better make damn sure there isn't overpowered shit in the game. "Waiting and seeing what happens" is what they should have done the first two weeks of HotS. This tournament was a VERY clear indication.
On June 11 2013 15:04 Huragius wrote: And why they aren't looking into proxy oracles in PvT? Too easy for protoss too execute. Almost always guaranteed damage, unless terran opened mines first which is actually shit against everything else (that's why it usually doesn't happen). Hits way too early, and the only proper way to hold is early scout and very early ebay.
Because every halfway decent player has already learned how to deal with it.
On June 11 2013 15:00 tomatriedes wrote: Since it's early game that's the main issue, requiring an upgrade seems like a pretty fair solution.
Guess that means bye-bye for Strelok in WCS (the only decent player who plays mech TvP I know).
Why do you say that? This kind of change David Kim is talking about would not affect mid or late game hellbat compositions. The hellbat wouldn't be weaker overall with a blue flame upgrade; it would just make early hellbat drop spam a little less popular.
On June 11 2013 15:04 Huragius wrote: And why they aren't looking into proxy oracles in PvT? Too easy for protoss too execute. Almost always guaranteed damage, unless terran opened mines first which is actually shit against everything else (that's why it usually doesn't happen). Hits way too early, and the only proper way to hold is early scout and very early ebay.
Because every halfway decent player has already learned how to deal with it.
Really? Damn near killed innovation, despite sos fucking up. You're clueless...
On June 11 2013 15:00 tomatriedes wrote: Since it's early game that's the main issue, requiring an upgrade seems like a pretty fair solution.
Guess that means bye-bye for Strelok in WCS (the only decent player who plays mech TvP I know).
Why do you say that? This kind of change David Kim is talking about would not affect mid or late game hellbat compositions. The hellbat wouldn't be weaker overall with a blue flame upgrade; it would just make early hellbat drop spam a little less popular.
Mech generally relies on hellbat drops to do some kind of damage. Also mech is gas limited, and upgrades usually (always) cost gas. So it's certainly a nerf to mech play, which is already weak.
On June 11 2013 15:00 tomatriedes wrote: Since it's early game that's the main issue, requiring an upgrade seems like a pretty fair solution.
Guess that means bye-bye for Strelok in WCS (the only decent player who plays mech TvP I know).
Why do you say that? This kind of change David Kim is talking about would not affect mid or late game hellbat compositions. The hellbat wouldn't be weaker overall with a blue flame upgrade; it would just make early hellbat drop spam a little less popular.
I've watched Strelok games and I think, that mech would even less viable if hellbats were worse at dealing with early GW pressure. GW timings can hit really fast, players know that Strelok is playing mech and will exploit it.
Also, with no real threat of harassment the toss will quickly go on an eco rampage - that makes things even worse.
On June 11 2013 15:04 Huragius wrote: And why they aren't looking into proxy oracles in PvT? Too easy for protoss too execute. Almost always guaranteed damage, unless terran opened mines first which is actually shit against everything else (that's why it usually doesn't happen). Hits way too early, and the only proper way to hold is early scout and very early ebay.
Because every halfway decent player has already learned how to deal with it.
Really? Damn near killed innovation, despite sos fucking up. You're clueless...
That's the difference of being good and being bad. If you're a good player you can take some damage, still you are in the game and go for the win. Innovation did 4:0 sOs after all.
And if you suck you lose and cry your heart out on TL.
On June 11 2013 10:57 NrG.NeverExpo wrote: I feel like the most obvious solution would be to just make them un-healable by medivacs, but could be repaired. Adding to the pre igniter seems weird to me. I still feel they would be a viable way to harass and would even be good late game vs zealots if they werent healable, but its the fact that once they do drop they take so damn long to kill that makes them lethal.
Wedging 2-4 hellbats inside mineral lines makes them invincible vs zerglings etc.
LOL thats the whole point, They suppose to be hard counter to zerglings and zealots.
On June 11 2013 15:04 Huragius wrote: And why they aren't looking into proxy oracles in PvT? Too easy for protoss too execute. Almost always guaranteed damage, unless terran opened mines first which is actually shit against everything else (that's why it usually doesn't happen). Hits way too early, and the only proper way to hold is early scout and very early ebay.
Any half decent master league terran players knows how to deal with proxy oracles if they aren't skimping on their early SCV scout. It doing some guaranteed damage does not mean much because if the terran deals with it accordingly they are (and is usually the case) comfortably ahead despite taking some SCV/marine losses here and there.
On June 11 2013 15:04 Huragius wrote: And why they aren't looking into proxy oracles in PvT? Too easy for protoss too execute. Almost always guaranteed damage, unless terran opened mines first which is actually shit against everything else (that's why it usually doesn't happen). Hits way too early, and the only proper way to hold is early scout and very early ebay.
Because every halfway decent player has already learned how to deal with it.
Really? Damn near killed innovation, despite sos fucking up. You're clueless...
That's the difference of being good and being bad. If you're a good player you can take some damage, still you are in the game and go for the win. Innovation did 4:0 sOs after all.
And if you suck you lose and cry your heart out on TL.
So when you say "every halfway decent player", you actually mean "the best players in the world". Good to know.
On June 11 2013 15:02 Tsubbi wrote: the problem is the god damn medivac, now blizzard cant add units than have good stats to compensate for low speed because the speedbost negates disadvantages
drops can be scouted and prepared for 2 minutes in advance and they still will fly into statics and units and be costefficient nevertheless
god this unit is so silly seriously the medivac boost looks like a left over april fools in the game
harassment for terran is just no longer impressive, its piss easy to execute, there isnt even any decisionmaking involved in building dropsships as u want to have them anyways for bio and for mech as well in hots which is just a joke
I would definitely like to see blue flame hellbats. I think that would be a great change. It would force a greater investment early on, but still leave mech intact and just as fierce as the game went on.
On June 11 2013 15:04 Huragius wrote: And why they aren't looking into proxy oracles in PvT? Too easy for protoss too execute. Almost always guaranteed damage, unless terran opened mines first which is actually shit against everything else (that's why it usually doesn't happen). Hits way too early, and the only proper way to hold is early scout and very early ebay.
Because every halfway decent player has already learned how to deal with it.
Really? Damn near killed innovation, despite sos fucking up. You're clueless...
That's the difference of being good and being bad. If you're a good player you can take some damage, still you are in the game and go for the win. Innovation did 4:0 sOs after all.
And if you suck you lose and cry your heart out on TL.
So when you say "every halfway decent player", you actually mean "the best players in the world". Good to know.
This is where balance matters. Proxy oracle build is losing popularity, fewer WCS Premier league players go for it. It's a good build to throw in a BoX, still it is a gimmick.
Therefore there is absolutely no reason to change anything about the Oracle.
On June 11 2013 15:04 Huragius wrote: And why they aren't looking into proxy oracles in PvT? Too easy for protoss too execute. Almost always guaranteed damage, unless terran opened mines first which is actually shit against everything else (that's why it usually doesn't happen). Hits way too early, and the only proper way to hold is early scout and very early ebay.
Because every halfway decent player has already learned how to deal with it.
Really? Damn near killed innovation, despite sos fucking up. You're clueless...
That's the difference of being good and being bad. If you're a good player you can take some damage, still you are in the game and go for the win. Innovation did 4:0 sOs after all.
And if you suck you lose and cry your heart out on TL.
So when you say "every halfway decent player", you actually mean "the best players in the world". Good to know.
This is where balance matters. Proxy oracle build is losing popularity, fewer WCS Premier league players go for it. It's a good build to throw in a BoX, still it is a gimmick.
Therefore there is absolutely no reason to change anything about the Oracle.
I haven't suggested changing anything about the oracle.
On June 11 2013 15:00 tomatriedes wrote: Since it's early game that's the main issue, requiring an upgrade seems like a pretty fair solution.
Guess that means bye-bye for Strelok in WCS (the only decent player who plays mech TvP I know).
Why do you say that? This kind of change David Kim is talking about would not affect mid or late game hellbat compositions. The hellbat wouldn't be weaker overall with a blue flame upgrade; it would just make early hellbat drop spam a little less popular.
I've watched Strelok games and I think, that mech would even less viable if hellbats were worse at dealing with early GW pressure. GW timings can hit really fast, players know that Strelok is playing mech and will exploit it.
Also, with no real threat of harassment the toss will quickly go on an eco rampage - that makes things even worse.
Wait, what? You want to mech properly and be able to harass powerfully? Right.
On June 11 2013 15:04 Huragius wrote: And why they aren't looking into proxy oracles in PvT? Too easy for protoss too execute. Almost always guaranteed damage, unless terran opened mines first which is actually shit against everything else (that's why it usually doesn't happen). Hits way too early, and the only proper way to hold is early scout and very early ebay.
Because every halfway decent player has already learned how to deal with it.
Really? Damn near killed innovation, despite sos fucking up. You're clueless...
That's the difference of being good and being bad. If you're a good player you can take some damage, still you are in the game and go for the win. Innovation did 4:0 sOs after all.
And if you suck you lose and cry your heart out on TL.
So when you say "every halfway decent player", you actually mean "the best players in the world". Good to know.
This is where balance matters. Proxy oracle build is losing popularity, fewer WCS Premier league players go for it. It's a good build to throw in a BoX, still it is a gimmick.
Therefore there is absolutely no reason to change anything about the Oracle.
I haven't suggested changing anything about the oracle.
Ah, you just can't deal with them but you feel that you are at least halfway decent?
On June 11 2013 15:00 tomatriedes wrote: Since it's early game that's the main issue, requiring an upgrade seems like a pretty fair solution.
Guess that means bye-bye for Strelok in WCS (the only decent player who plays mech TvP I know).
Why do you say that? This kind of change David Kim is talking about would not affect mid or late game hellbat compositions. The hellbat wouldn't be weaker overall with a blue flame upgrade; it would just make early hellbat drop spam a little less popular.
I've watched Strelok games and I think, that mech would even less viable if hellbats were worse at dealing with early GW pressure. GW timings can hit really fast, players know that Strelok is playing mech and will exploit it.
Also, with no real threat of harassment the toss will quickly go on an eco rampage - that makes things even worse.
Wait, what? You want to mech properly and be able to harass powerfully? Right.
I just made some observations about Strelok's games. You don't like them - well, I guess that one player playing mech in WCS premier is way too much.
On June 11 2013 15:04 Huragius wrote: And why they aren't looking into proxy oracles in PvT? Too easy for protoss too execute. Almost always guaranteed damage, unless terran opened mines first which is actually shit against everything else (that's why it usually doesn't happen). Hits way too early, and the only proper way to hold is early scout and very early ebay.
Because every halfway decent player has already learned how to deal with it.
Really? Damn near killed innovation, despite sos fucking up. You're clueless...
That's the difference of being good and being bad. If you're a good player you can take some damage, still you are in the game and go for the win. Innovation did 4:0 sOs after all.
And if you suck you lose and cry your heart out on TL.
Then don't cry about helbats? I pointed this out because this seemed to be very familiar to the case and according to Blizzard proxy oracles are fine.
On June 11 2013 15:00 tomatriedes wrote: Since it's early game that's the main issue, requiring an upgrade seems like a pretty fair solution.
Guess that means bye-bye for Strelok in WCS (the only decent player who plays mech TvP I know).
Why do you say that? This kind of change David Kim is talking about would not affect mid or late game hellbat compositions. The hellbat wouldn't be weaker overall with a blue flame upgrade; it would just make early hellbat drop spam a little less popular.
I've watched Strelok games and I think, that mech would even less viable if hellbats were worse at dealing with early GW pressure. GW timings can hit really fast, players know that Strelok is playing mech and will exploit it.
Also, with no real threat of harassment the toss will quickly go on an eco rampage - that makes things even worse.
Wait, what? You want to mech properly and be able to harass powerfully? Right.
The two actually go together. If by mech we mean siege tanks and not armoured infantry. Mech is relatively immobile and requires leap-frogging forward. It follows that mech needs to use harass units strike where the main army cannot rush to.
Premier League Korea season 2 is starting in a week, the nature of this tweet suggests they are on alpha stage of thinking about possible nerfs, since they don't want to change in mid season we may have another season of this...
I still think making helbats unhealable by medivacs earlygame would be a good thing. why not make the medivac upgrade include healing helbats? that would make the earlygame harass unforgiving and still get the option to use them to counter chargelots and lings after the upgrade.
Removing healing completly would go away from the original purpouse of the helbat.
On June 11 2013 15:04 Huragius wrote: And why they aren't looking into proxy oracles in PvT? Too easy for protoss too execute. Almost always guaranteed damage, unless terran opened mines first which is actually shit against everything else (that's why it usually doesn't happen). Hits way too early, and the only proper way to hold is early scout and very early ebay.
Because every halfway decent player has already learned how to deal with it.
Really? Damn near killed innovation, despite sos fucking up. You're clueless...
That's the difference of being good and being bad. If you're a good player you can take some damage, still you are in the game and go for the win. Innovation did 4:0 sOs after all.
And if you suck you lose and cry your heart out on TL.
Then don't cry about helbats? I pointed this out because this seemed to be very familiar to the case and according to Blizzard proxy oracles are fine.
There is a slight difference. First of all, the Terrans have not learned how to deal with the hellbat drops.... yet. It may either take a bit longer time or be impossible.
I would wait more - as we've seen with mines, oracles and void rays - waiting works.
Unfortunately there is a lot of people who do not believe in building skills slowly and letting the metagame evolve Is 3 months that long?
There is a lot of TvT fans who want their WoL TvT back as it was better. And there is a lot of P/Z players who want the T nerfed to grab more easy wins. And so it rolls.
On June 11 2013 15:44 doffe wrote: I still think making helbats unhealable by medivacs earlygame would be a good thing. why not make the medivac upgrade include healing helbats? that would make the earlygame harass unforgiving and still get the option to use them to counter chargelots and lings after the upgrade.
Removing healing completly would go away from the original purpouse of the helbat.
Best comment in this thread. That would be the best solution.
On June 11 2013 10:56 jcroisdale wrote: Something there not even considering is there late game utility. TvP when the terran goes mech, is so much stronger, because the hellbat is such an efficient harassment unit.
The early game attacks are hard, but late game is just as difficult.
It really isn't. Against mech if you get like 2 cannons per base you're pretty much super defended against hellbat drops. It's much better to do hellion runbys at that point.
On June 11 2013 15:00 tomatriedes wrote: Since it's early game that's the main issue, requiring an upgrade seems like a pretty fair solution.
Guess that means bye-bye for Strelok in WCS (the only decent player who plays mech TvP I know).
Why do you say that? This kind of change David Kim is talking about would not affect mid or late game hellbat compositions. The hellbat wouldn't be weaker overall with a blue flame upgrade; it would just make early hellbat drop spam a little less popular.
I've watched Strelok games and I think, that mech would even less viable if hellbats were worse at dealing with early GW pressure. GW timings can hit really fast, players know that Strelok is playing mech and will exploit it.
Also, with no real threat of harassment the toss will quickly go on an eco rampage - that makes things even worse.
Wait, what? You want to mech properly and be able to harass powerfully? Right.
The two actually go together. If by mech we mean siege tanks and not armoured infantry. Mech is relatively immobile and requires leap-frogging forward. It follows that mech needs to use harass units strike where the main army cannot rush to.
I see. Thanks, I did mean siege tank based Mech (i.e. traditional/BW mech). I did not watch much BW (although I did play it, mainly on LANs with mates, in the first couple or so of years after SC1/BW was released). I do get the appeal (the slow and intellectual strangle) of positional based Mech play - even if, at times, I think some Terran players exhibit an irrational demand that they be able to have their Mech and play it too. Even if SC2, as a different game, does not necessarily enable that style of play; and thereby that strict analytic comparisons to BW as arguments for Mech are also incorrect.
In this sense, I take it, that Vultures would have fulfilled that purpose, albeit in a different way, in BW which Hellbats may do in SC2? I don't necessarily see an issue with that, except that Hellbats seem stronger than Vultures and that Terran does not seem to lack for powerful harass options at all, especially against Protoss. And the fact that the unit hard counters the Zealot in the same way the Marauder hard counters the Stalker. (Of course, this may just be my biased Protoss heart talking.)
I think a fair balance could be reduce the against biological units by 20 to 40% and buff its movement speed by 35% and drop its armor by 20%. This means you need to control it more like an oracle because of its speed buff and continuous control to ensure its survival and aggregate damage.
On June 11 2013 15:44 doffe wrote: I still think making helbats unhealable by medivacs earlygame would be a good thing. why not make the medivac upgrade include healing helbats? that would make the earlygame harass unforgiving and still get the option to use them to counter chargelots and lings after the upgrade.
Removing healing completly would go away from the original purpouse of the helbat.
Best comment in this thread. That would be the best solution.
i don't play terran, but i think this option would pose a problem in medivac production as well, because you can't reactor them out with a tech lab on your starport. which means it would delay hellbatdrops even more... and as soon as armory and starport are scouted, it would delay so much, that those drops loose too much on impact... at least i think it could be that way...
On June 11 2013 15:44 doffe wrote: I still think making helbats unhealable by medivacs earlygame would be a good thing. why not make the medivac upgrade include healing helbats? that would make the earlygame harass unforgiving and still get the option to use them to counter chargelots and lings after the upgrade.
Removing healing completly would go away from the original purpouse of the helbat.
Best comment in this thread. That would be the best solution.
i don't play terran, but i think this option would pose a problem in medivac production as well, because you can't reactor them out with a tech lab on your starport. which means it would delay hellbatdrops even more... and as soon as armory and starport are scouted, it would delay so much, that those drops loose too much on impact... at least i think it could be that way...
well, you could have an upgrade on the fact techlab for it aswell.. but I don't think forcing terrans to make a techlab starport to have the healing a problem. Its more of a commitement if they want the healing and they can still reactor the port and get no healing if they don't want to do that.
Its one possible sollution atleast. What do the terrans think? the problem seems to be mostly in TvT anyways :p
Obviously we'd like to see how they turn out in the coming weeks, but initially we're thinking:
3. Might be too early before defenses can be ready
Rather than jumping to conclusions right now, we'll keep a close eye on it and if in fact Hellbat drops do turn out too strong, we'll do something like rolling in some of their damage with the Infernal Pre igniter upgrade.
Am I the only one finding it very unlogical to say "might be too early before defenses can be ready" --> nerf damage? Why not require the transformation upgrade?
@aZealot. Well to be honest, I would see hellions as the vulture analog. Hellbats do indeed seem much tougher than vultures. Although my earlier arguments focused on the old Warhound, I see the hellbat as yet another tanky 'infantry' unit that has been added to the Terran's force. And to my mind hellbats hard counter things like zealots far more than I would like if we had a spectrum of 'pure hard counter' aka rock-paper scissor to 'pure control.' So I agree with you there. I just don't think 'harass' and 'mech' are mutually exclusive- just different arms of the same gameplay.
Blizzard announces Captain Obvious as their new head balance designer. jk
My opinion regarding hellbat drops: The new speed + hellbats damage was an overkill Drops are supposed to do damage if the enemies units are out of position. Sadly, hellbats can do damage even it is spotted. This won't change by simply adjustifying the way the drops work or hellbats are made viable. We will either see lots of hellbat drops or no hellbats at all - simply because there is no point in building a weak unit. Hellbats were meant to fulfill a certain role - providing a mineral dump to make mech viable in tvp. But since they aren't fleshy enough to withstand collossi, they have absolutely no value in supporting mech. Instead, the hellbat took the role of Terrans entire harrasment by being crazy cost effective in small numbers - no need to get banshees/fast marine drops/blueflame drops, etc. Upgrades which delay those drops won't solve it.
Another thing is, the hellbat has never been a transformation of the hellion - Since this upgrade exists, hellbats are build seperately and treated like a different unit. Simply, because there is no reason to use hellions and hellbats together. But I honestly have to say that I'd love to see bulky hellbats in the front and crazy blueflame hellions roasting zerglings from behind the hellbat-wall.
On June 11 2013 13:05 Waxangel wrote: fix the medivac, not the hellbat
harassment has become so easy it's no longer impressive
I always thought they should change the turn radius on the medivac when it boosted. Just change the way in controls so it can't stop on a dime and zip in every direction. Hell, phoenixes are harder to control than a boosted medivac.
Am I the only one finding it very unlogical to say "might be too early before defenses can be ready" --> nerf damage? Why not require the transformation upgrade?
Yeah, it has no sense at all. The main problem seems to be the timing and only the timing of HB drops. So, just put an upgrade to delay this timing of X seconds / minutes and here you go, problem solved (Medivac upgrade for example). But do not touch HB damages ....
His purpose is to counter light units, even in very early game. If you nerf damages, you nerf the HB and his purpose : the whole balance is compromised.
Please, do not make another brainless WOL nerf ....
I posted a build that would completely counter hellbat drop builds, but my thread got closed -.- thank you team liquid mods, for helping the community develop the Meta. Basically my build is a standard factory expand, but you get 2 starports - one with reactor and one techlab, and this should hard counter hellbats completely.
Wow, must say I'm perplexed.. Or at least - wordless..
DK really surprised me this time.. Didn't seem like he liked to do even the slightest changes to the unit on the SotG episode he was participating in.. He actually said that he'd do sth with the Hellbats IF the games in which Terran would play 80% of the times THEN he'd do sth..
This came out like a thunder from the sky lol.. What's even funnier is that he seems like he's nerfing the thing solely because of TvT lol..
Nevertheless - I think if they do the following:
1 - make Medivac cost 125/125 2 - Make HB non bio, i.e. - not be healed - then those Drops would lose some ground/strength..
it would probably make me Happy.. Quite a bit more..
However - the HB is unit's quite a bit too gimmicky/hard to be balanced.. I think the Medis are those who might need a nerf, much easier to test, much easier to execute.. If they really had the Ballz then that's the unit which should be experimented with for a while..
BUT if it's solely the TIMING they wanna fix: something tells me that this is probably going to end in an Armory building gas and/or building time increase - i.e. - 150/150 instead of 150/100 and/or maybe 10 seconds longer build time.. But don't quite like that approach - cause late game there's an issue too of those being quite a bit too strong as a mineral-only unit, and DATA still won't show it cause it's like less than 15% of the games that go to that phase overall..
All these problems are probably an aftermath of the fact that Blizz wasn't experimenting enough with the Terran over the course of Beta.. All the new units/changes were kinda pushed over the last month during that period as a result of a fix of previously very bad unit designs, so ended up with not enough time/data to work upon except feast on the game-numbers outcome that the game was balanced over all levels overall..
Still - For the sake of massive-battle late-game - reduce rate or scrap healing over HBs.. Maybe make them have +1 Armor in HB form, but not make those heal.. or with a diminiched rate of heal at least.. And that healing thing seems like is also the reason why so many Protosses think they're too strong - cause when HBs are healed then they pretty much soak up A LOT.. And by A LOT I Mean don't die to 3 Colossi, but need like 5-6 instead.. Or like 4 Consecutive Storms over them, or 3 at least..
Might solve A LOT I of the problems.. I think
So yah, curious to see how this turns out, but won't make my expectations as high as much, as they'll probably nerf the Armory build time and/or gas cost lol..
On June 11 2013 16:44 Akaann wrote: Why not just take the biological away? That would make it a hell of a lot easyer to kill them. Than it's not that hard to defend against the drop...
Because it would affect the TvZ and TvP balance which is fine.
That is why this is tricky.
The only hope is (thanks to Snowbear for pointing this out) that terrans look at that TvT scrub ForGG and learn to deal with hellbats, as he seems to be doing pretty well defending them.
On June 11 2013 10:52 SoOJuuu wrote: took them long enough to figuire it out. sigh better late then never.
Look Hellbats annoy me but this sort of comment is way off base. The metagame is STILL not stablised yet.
Blizzard have kept their paws off balance in HotS till now and the game is healthier for it. This is really classy restraint and a really elegant way to go about approaching a balance tweak (spore crawler buff was less elegant).
When the devs done right, don't give them shit, otherwise you just sound like CryWolfBoy when something's really broken.
The speed boost for Medivacs are absolutely necessary against in a TvZ where Zerg is using Mutalisks. Mutalisks are faster than non-speed medivacs, if you want any drop to go through then you need that boost.
Someone mentioned boosters costing energy to use, that does seem an elegant solution as it forces you to be careful with how much boosters you use (currently Terrans boost as soon as units are loaded) if you want any energy left for healing.
Making Hellbats require the Transfo Servos does seem like a pretty good "nerf" as well.
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT ENOUGH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA..
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
Hell that's what was the problem in WoL for 1.5 years straight anyways.. They NEVER put Terran UP for at least EVEN a SECOND to SEE which problems they might FACE from the other races anyway at all..
Take Widow-mine for example ?? - you say it's a good unit cause it doesn't make the number of games bad and makes it balanced - I say it's very bad unit design because of the following:
1 - too weak against Protoss.. 2 - too strong vs Zerg.. 3 - cause too much loss of mining time 4 - too cheap to produce 5 - set and forget unit
SEE ? - not enough experimenting with almost any of the new tech in HotS of Terran..
Hell I even think that the Swarm-host needed to be experimented more..
All these never EVER had a change to work with and/or compare data to decide what was the best outcome
On June 11 2013 15:00 tomatriedes wrote: Since it's early game that's the main issue, requiring an upgrade seems like a pretty fair solution.
Guess that means bye-bye for Strelok in WCS (the only decent player who plays mech TvP I know).
Why do you say that? This kind of change David Kim is talking about would not affect mid or late game hellbat compositions. The hellbat wouldn't be weaker overall with a blue flame upgrade; it would just make early hellbat drop spam a little less popular.
I've watched Strelok games and I think, that mech would even less viable if hellbats were worse at dealing with early GW pressure. GW timings can hit really fast, players know that Strelok is playing mech and will exploit it.
Also, with no real threat of harassment the toss will quickly go on an eco rampage - that makes things even worse.
Wait, what? You want to mech properly and be able to harass powerfully? Right.
The two actually go together. If by mech we mean siege tanks and not armoured infantry. Mech is relatively immobile and requires leap-frogging forward. It follows that mech needs to use harass units strike where the main army cannot rush to.
Well its either that OR mech armies are powerful enough to defend their bases AND threaten a larger army ... That isnt the case and those mech units have too many weaknesses against massive armies of their opponents (especially Zerglings who can close far too fast).
I also think that "traditional mech" is hindered by the creep spread, because it recedes too slowly and there is no active way to remove creep to place some buildings. Day[9] described an attack as "rushing 3/4 of the distance across the map and then slowly pushing from there on". That sounds like a good way to do it, but with the creep it would be impossible to set up an offensive position on the Zerg side of the map.
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
Please don't scream. Nobody likes people screaming.
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (35)
64%
Nerf Medivac "thrusters" (9)
16%
Remove bio tag ONLY (8)
15%
Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (3)
5%
Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (0)
0%
Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (0)
0%
55 total votes
Your vote: So many suggestions..so let´s go:
(Vote): Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (Vote): Remove bio tag ONLY (Vote): Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (Vote): Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (Vote): Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (Vote): Nerf Medivac "thrusters"
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125 2 - Make HB non bio, i.e. - not be healed - then those Drops would lose some ground/strength..
None of these suggestions would change the efficiency of the first Hellbat drop. Sure it would be slowed down by the amount of time to gather 25 gas ... which is a few seconds. Other than that you are nerfing regular bio strategies for the whole game just to fix an early rush problem? I would call that even worse than the Blizzard solution to the Mutalisk problem.
Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (35)
64%
Nerf Medivac "thrusters" (9)
16%
Remove bio tag ONLY (8)
15%
Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (3)
5%
Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (0)
0%
Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (0)
0%
55 total votes
Your vote: So many suggestions..so let´s go:
(Vote): Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (Vote): Remove bio tag ONLY (Vote): Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (Vote): Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (Vote): Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (Vote): Nerf Medivac "thrusters"
Where is the: "Look at the way ForGG defends Hellbats and L2P?"
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT ENOUGH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA..
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
Hell that's what was the problem in WoL for 1.5 years straight anyways.. They NEVER put Terran UP for at least EVEN a SECOND to SEE which problems they might FACE from the other races anyway at all..
Yeah the screaming wasn't required. But I made apparantly the incorrect assumption you wanted a balanced game, but you want a game where terran is underpowered, which does explain the changes you propose.
(Not to mention at least the last 6 months of WoL was completely dominated by zerg, with terran the least played race in every league above silver).
On June 11 2013 16:33 Lock0n wrote: I posted a build that would completely counter hellbat drop builds, but my thread got closed -.- thank you team liquid mods, for helping the community develop the Meta. Basically my build is a standard factory expand, but you get 2 starports - one with reactor and one techlab, and this should hard counter hellbats completely.
You posted a "build" that you had by your own admission never even tried, without replays. If you want to explain to the TL mods why that was helping us "develop the Meta" you should go to website feedback and lay out your story there, not come into another thread and complain that you're being kept from rescuing TvT.
As for DK's comments, I'm happy with Blizzard's pace. I wouldn't be surprised to see some shift in the metagame that reduces the ubiquity of HB drops. I don't want to sit through more TvTs where the first ten minutes are just a constant stream of Medivacs flying past each other, but I'd rather tolerate that for a few weeks and see whether someone solves the problem than risk a too-hasty change that makes the tactic completely useless. My two examples of this sort of process going wrong in WoL were the 4-gate, which was allowed to dominate PvP for so long that the match-up was permanently stunted, and the Reaper, which was hastily nerfed to the point where it essentially disappeared from the game.
On June 11 2013 16:27 Falling wrote: @aZealot. Well to be honest, I would see hellions as the vulture analog. Hellbats do indeed seem much tougher than vultures. Although my earlier arguments focused on the old Warhound, I see the hellbat as yet another tanky 'infantry' unit that has been added to the Terran's force. And to my mind hellbats hard counter things like zealots far more than I would like if we had a spectrum of 'pure hard counter' aka rock-paper scissor to 'pure control.' So I agree with you there. I just don't think 'harass' and 'mech' are mutually exclusive- just different arms of the same gameplay.
Thanks, I get that. I appreciate the insight. And it does make sense. And, yes, I see that Hellions are more analogous to Vultures. Taking your tanky infantry unit comparison a step further, the Hellbat seems a flame throwing version of the Marauder.
Edit/ All that said, I'll re-iterate that DK is right to wait and see. Now, about that WP buff, Blizzard...
Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (35)
64%
Nerf Medivac "thrusters" (9)
16%
Remove bio tag ONLY (8)
15%
Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (3)
5%
Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (0)
0%
Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (0)
0%
55 total votes
Your vote: So many suggestions..so let´s go:
(Vote): Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (Vote): Remove bio tag ONLY (Vote): Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (Vote): Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (Vote): Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (Vote): Nerf Medivac "thrusters"
Where is the: "Look at the way ForGG defends Hellbats and L2P?"
Ask Innovation and Mvp.I suppose,they were able to beat ForGG,but arent so good as him defending this,thats why they dedicated themselves to the "mass Hellbatdrop2 instead of "L2P"...."Full Foreigners"...
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
There are no "balance problems" in a coinflip game - they are 50/50 by nature -, but strategy games are not supposed to be coinflippy at all. Sadly Blizzard has changed Starcraft from a strategy game (BW) into an action game (SC2) with bigger explosions and higher kill count. Higher kill count works for "Hot Shots 2" (as a joke) but not for Starcraft 2 ... and they arent courageous enough to admit the mistake or smart enough to recognize it.
Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (35)
64%
Nerf Medivac "thrusters" (9)
16%
Remove bio tag ONLY (8)
15%
Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (3)
5%
Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (0)
0%
Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (0)
0%
55 total votes
Your vote: So many suggestions..so let´s go:
(Vote): Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (Vote): Remove bio tag ONLY (Vote): Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (Vote): Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (Vote): Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (Vote): Nerf Medivac "thrusters"
Where is the: "Look at the way ForGG defends Hellbats and L2P?"
That option is stupid, because you cant make a game which is only playable for maybe 100 people.,
Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (35)
64%
Nerf Medivac "thrusters" (9)
16%
Remove bio tag ONLY (8)
15%
Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (3)
5%
Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (0)
0%
Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (0)
0%
55 total votes
Your vote: So many suggestions..so let´s go:
(Vote): Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (Vote): Remove bio tag ONLY (Vote): Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (Vote): Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (Vote): Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (Vote): Nerf Medivac "thrusters"
Where is the: "Look at the way ForGG defends Hellbats and L2P?"
don't go there :S. there has been stuff widely considered op or broken before that some people soemtimes won against, that doesnt mean it needs no change. I think most people actually agree that some slight tweek needs to be done no matter how slight.
Just because people won vs zerg lategame vs the infamous BL infestor sometimes didnt mean that the rest should simply watch that player and l2p, it's a silly notion really. I would love to see the stats of how many TvTs in WCS involved helbats and how many times the one doing that won.
I am though all for letting metagame/maps/innovation(not the player) solve balance but surely there are points when this isnt longer an option?
If the issue is earlygame hellbat drops (as I understand it is) then remove the strength of that and keep the lategame strength.
I see a few options.
My favourite is simply requiring an upgrade to have them be healed.. you can still drop but retaining is harder and it is less forgiving
you could nerf the damage but make the upgrades scale better so at 3 attack you end up at the same place
you could require the helbat upgrade to build them at all (not a fan of this one though)
I guess several people think they need a permanent lategame nerf aswell.. I haven't seen alot of games where this has been needed though, that doesn't mean they don't exist but I personally havn't seen it.
Obviously we'd like to see how they turn out in the coming weeks, but initially we're thinking:
1. Too easy to execute 2. Especially in TvT, not a lot of risk to doing them (when you don't lose the Medivac) 3. Might be too early before defenses can be ready
Rather than jumping to conclusions right now, we'll keep a close eye on it and if in fact Hellbat drops do turn out too strong, we'll do something like rolling in some of their damage with the Infernal Pre igniter upgrade.
I really really like the Pre Igniter Upgrade. This would make the upgrade really relevant. Lets have the normal HB shitty damage, and with the upgrade the current damages. Make the upgrade cheap, but long to research. Also, maybe reduce the health of the HB a little, but keeping the healing.
EXACTLY what it needs to slove the problem! Mr. Kim: Energy!
Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (35)
64%
Nerf Medivac "thrusters" (9)
16%
Remove bio tag ONLY (8)
15%
Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (3)
5%
Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (0)
0%
Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (0)
0%
55 total votes
Your vote: So many suggestions..so let´s go:
(Vote): Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (Vote): Remove bio tag ONLY (Vote): Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (Vote): Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (Vote): Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (Vote): Nerf Medivac "thrusters"
Where is the: "Look at the way ForGG defends Hellbats and L2P?"
Ask Innovation and Mvp.I suppose,they were able to beat ForGG,but arent so good as him defending this,thats why they dedicated themselves to the "mass Hellbatdrop2 instead of "L2P"...."Full Foreigners"...
Yes, ForGG los a single TvT series vs WCS EU Champion, therefore his strategy is invalid and should be never ever looked into. Wp man, wp.
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want?
I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even?
Last time a Terran made these at me I went Banshee harass...When I scouted hellbat drop I left first banshee at base...With a marauder and a Banshee this drop is quite defendable...You can follow up with another banshee to clean hellbats even faster or a Viking to hunt medivacs and try catching them before they drop...All in all when a T goes hell bat drops and I go 1-1-1 I build 2 marauders 2 banshees viking and so far so good good...But my level is low so what do I know...:-)
Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (35)
64%
Nerf Medivac "thrusters" (9)
16%
Remove bio tag ONLY (8)
15%
Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (3)
5%
Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (0)
0%
Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (0)
0%
55 total votes
Your vote: So many suggestions..so let´s go:
(Vote): Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (Vote): Remove bio tag ONLY (Vote): Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (Vote): Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (Vote): Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (Vote): Nerf Medivac "thrusters"
Where is the: "Look at the way ForGG defends Hellbats and L2P?"
Ask Innovation and Mvp.I suppose,they were able to beat ForGG,but arent so good as him defending this,thats why they dedicated themselves to the "mass Hellbatdrop2 instead of "L2P"...."Full Foreigners"...
Yes, ForGG los a single TvT series vs WCS EU Champion, therefore his strategy is invalid and should be never ever looked into. Wp man, wp.
It doesn't make the strategy invalid at all obviously but who did he beat to actually make it valid? I mean that argument goes both ways. Just because ForGG won games with strat A vs B doesnt mean it doesn't need looking in to.
At this rate of comments being added in the thread Blizzard should realize that the Hellbat (drop) NEEDS to be changed ... preferrably before the next season of WCS ...
Obviously we'd like to see how they turn out in the coming weeks, but initially we're thinking:
1. Too easy to execute 2. Especially in TvT, not a lot of risk to doing them (when you don't lose the Medivac) 3. Might be too early before defenses can be ready
Rather than jumping to conclusions right now, we'll keep a close eye on it and if in fact Hellbat drops do turn out too strong, we'll do something like rolling in some of their damage with the Infernal Pre igniter upgrade.
going Rax-> Factory -> Armory-> Starport and then finally having built the units to drop, 3) must be a joke Players should start scouting more and playing less greedy, i didn't ever have problems with HB Drops when I saw them coming/expected them. 1) does this mean, terran HAS to stay the race that has to micro the most for every strat they do? I mean come on, "too easy to execute", there are tons of strats that are too easy to execute compared to what damage they do and how hard they are to defend. 2) could be. 4) Problem with hellbatdrops is simply that they are a coin flip: you lose them before they do damage - you lost a lot, if drop does damage enemy can be far behind. Like a cheese almost.
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want?
I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even?
I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 11 11 10 actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea optimal: 11 11 10 actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners optimal: 3 2 2 actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists optimal: 4 5 5 actual 4P 5Z 5T
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT ENOUGH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA..
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
Hell that's what was the problem in WoL for 1.5 years straight anyways.. They NEVER put Terran UP for at least EVEN a SECOND to SEE which problems they might FACE from the other races anyway at all..
Yeah the screaming wasn't required. But I made apparantly the incorrect assumption you wanted a balanced game, but you want a game where terran is underpowered, which does explain the changes you propose.
(Not to mention at least the last 6 months of WoL was completely dominated by zerg, with terran the least played race in every league above silver).
And the 1.5 years before that ?
The Rax before Bunker, the +10 damage vs light of Infernal, the ridiculous Ghost all-kill unit ? - those were problems vs Zerg.. And suddenly - a miracle happened - noone saw that coming but fixed the matchup like for less than a day - the Queen got 5 range instead of 3 lol
The Infestor issue you say about was a Protoss issue/problem..
Terrans weren't losing to Zerg cause of the Infestor, go back and see WoL data and you'll see that IN FACT TvZ was THE matchup to look upon in terms of balance..
INSTEAD Terran were losing to Protosses cause of high rate of predictability of builds - i.e. - bio, bio, and only bio.. I approve WoL Terran Tears, but only vs Protoss, hell I played Terran vs Protoss too and know how it was - if not the Colossus, then at least any small amount of lag would make me pissed too..
However - claiming "Protoss tears" to Infestors in WoL for the course of those 6 months and abuse them is an act of "justification" of hate cause someone else was winning - not good my friend.. not good lol.. Nice try there.. hehe
it's pretty obvious it's gonna happen. I think they'll gonna see what happens at DH this weekend and then make a decision. Hellbats are boring as hell in tvt but they are very fun against z and p and probably an only way to get some real damage done to the mineral line. mines are meh and too slow (damage output wise).
On June 11 2013 10:57 NrG.NeverExpo wrote: I feel like the most obvious solution would be to just make them un-healable by medivacs, but could be repaired. Adding to the pre igniter seems weird to me. I still feel they would be a viable way to harass and would even be good late game vs zealots if they werent healable, but its the fact that once they do drop they take so damn long to kill that makes them lethal.
Wedging 2-4 hellbats inside mineral lines makes them invincible vs zerglings etc.
Yes, I agree. Make them repairable but not healable and suddenly the drops get less scary, IF you react decently to them. If you don't, all your workers still die.
The only issue I have about changing hellbats/medivacs is how it's going to affect the other matchups. I feel like only recently-ish have terrans been consistently adding in hellbats to zealot and ling heavy compositions, which is exactly what Blizzard intended with them, and if you require an upgrade or something then it could steer terrans away from getting them at the times they currently do (which I don't feel is a problem in any way). Very difficult to get it to influence TvT without severing the way they work in the other matchups.
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want?
I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even?
I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 11 11 10 actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea optimal: 11 11 10 actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners optimal: 3 2 2 actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists optimal: 4 5 5 actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me.
That's a way to narrow way to approach balance. You need to look at what actually happens in the games not only the winratios. TvZ in WoL was a long time balanced in winratios but lategame zerg seemed hugely favoured and alot of the terrans winratios where all ins. Maybe that makes it balance but personally I definitely want a more dynamic game then that.
On June 11 2013 10:57 NrG.NeverExpo wrote: I feel like the most obvious solution would be to just make them un-healable by medivacs, but could be repaired. Adding to the pre igniter seems weird to me. I still feel they would be a viable way to harass and would even be good late game vs zealots if they werent healable, but its the fact that once they do drop they take so damn long to kill that makes them lethal.
Wedging 2-4 hellbats inside mineral lines makes them invincible vs zerglings etc.
Yes, I agree. Make them repairable but not healable and suddenly the drops get less scary, IF you react decently to them. If you don't, all your workers still die.
I still think it makes hellbats pretty useless lategame vs especially toss. keep the healing as an upgrade! ( think ive said it to many times now :p)
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want?
I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even?
I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 11 11 10 actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea optimal: 11 11 10 actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners optimal: 3 2 2 actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists optimal: 4 5 5 actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me.
I guess you dont like to watch games and are only interested in the results then? Personally I am more a "the way you get there is the most important bit" kind of guy and winning through mainly Hellbat drops is more boring than a long drawn out game with strategic positions held, threatened and overrun ... you know, games which require STRATEGY to win. Hellbats dont give that same level of excitement+ Show Spoiler +
and in a sense they are like premature ejaculation ... the game is over far too quickly
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want?
I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even?
I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 11 11 10 actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea optimal: 11 11 10 actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners optimal: 3 2 2 actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists optimal: 4 5 5 actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me.
That's a way to narrow way to approach balance. You need to look at what actually happens in the games not only the winratios. TvZ in WoL was a long time balanced in winratios but lategame zerg seemed hugely favoured and alot of the terrans winratios where all ins. Maybe that makes it balance but personally I definitely want a more dynamic game then that.
having 64 players in WCS EU and WCS KR (as they are separate player pools) gives you a pretty snapshot of what does the top of SC2 in terms of skill looks like.
"Dynamic games" is yet another term for patching the meta. You want to patch the meta and destroy the balance and I am not fine with it, I want the meta to evolve by itself. It is simple as that.
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want?
I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even?
I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 11 11 10 actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea optimal: 11 11 10 actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners optimal: 3 2 2 actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists optimal: 4 5 5 actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me.
I guess you dont like to watch games and are only interested in the results then? Personally I am more a "the way you get there is the most important bit" kind of guy and winning through mainly Hellbat drops is more boring than a long drawn out game with strategic positions held, threatened and overrun ... you know, games which require STRATEGY to win. Hellbats dont give that same level of excitement+ Show Spoiler +
and in a sense they are like premature ejaculation ... the game is over far too quickly
.
I watch the games and I'd like them to get better. Having this kind of stats however makes me think that "hey, let's nerf Terran" approach is not the way to go, as the results are way to close for that.
And every "solution" to this problem is essentially a terran nerf, whereas the results show that it would be unreasonable.
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want?
I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even?
I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 11 11 10 actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea optimal: 11 11 10 actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners optimal: 3 2 2 actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists optimal: 4 5 5 actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me.
That's a way to narrow way to approach balance. You need to look at what actually happens in the games not only the winratios. TvZ in WoL was a long time balanced in winratios but lategame zerg seemed hugely favoured and alot of the terrans winratios where all ins. Maybe that makes it balance but personally I definitely want a more dynamic game then that.
having 64 players in WCS EU and WCS KR (as they are separate player pools) gives you a pretty snapshot of what does the top of SC2 in terms of skill looks like.
"Dynamic games" is yet another term for patching the meta. You want to patch the meta and destroy the balance and I am not fine with it, I want the meta to evolve by itself. It is simple as that.
you seem to live under the asumption that the meta always can evolve past a certain point. I think there definitely are situations where the meta can't fix balance. I do in general find that this is the best approach but you can't be to stubborn about it. If this is such a situation or not is not for me to decide, im way to low lvl for that and don't even play terran that much. I discuss to try to find the best solution but when you are so set in your idea of the meta will fix it there is kinda no reason to discuss. For me it feels like "put your fingers in your ears and scream META WILL FIX".
There definitely where situations in WoL where the meta got stagnant and the games got terrible to watch... or did you like the "immortal all in vs infestor broodlord" that PvZ evolved into? That was pretty much what we saw the last year.
Again, if this is the situation now or not is for the proscene to decide but don't get stuck in the notion of meta fixing it nor stare at winratios cause honestly, balance is way more complicated then that.
The problem to me is Hellbat being LIGHT UNIT with ~140HP. There is no T1, T1.5 unit (except suicidal banes) that deal with that kind of type efficiently. Healing has added up to that difficulty a big dime too.
Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (35)
64%
Nerf Medivac "thrusters" (9)
16%
Remove bio tag ONLY (8)
15%
Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (3)
5%
Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (0)
0%
Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (0)
0%
55 total votes
Your vote: So many suggestions..so let´s go:
(Vote): Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (Vote): Remove bio tag ONLY (Vote): Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (Vote): Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (Vote): Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (Vote): Nerf Medivac "thrusters"
Where is the: "Look at the way ForGG defends Hellbats and L2P?"
Ask Innovation and Mvp.I suppose,they were able to beat ForGG,but arent so good as him defending this,thats why they dedicated themselves to the "mass Hellbatdrop2 instead of "L2P"...."Full Foreigners"...
Yes, ForGG los a single TvT series vs WCS EU Champion, therefore his strategy is invalid and should be never ever looked into. Wp man, wp.
Who said his strategy is invalid??? And the Mvp vs ForGG series were not even that "hellbatdrop heavy" as the Mvp vs Innovation. You cant play the same strategy every single game in a BO5 or even BO3....
On June 11 2013 17:44 pieroog wrote: The problem to me is Hellbat being LIGHT UNIT with ~140HP. There is no T1, T1.5 unit (except suicidal banes) that deal with that kind of type efficiently. Healing has added up to that difficulty a big dime too.
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want?
I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even?
I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 11 11 10 actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea optimal: 11 11 10 actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners optimal: 3 2 2 actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists optimal: 4 5 5 actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me.
I guess you dont like to watch games and are only interested in the results then? Personally I am more a "the way you get there is the most important bit" kind of guy and winning through mainly Hellbat drops is more boring than a long drawn out game with strategic positions held, threatened and overrun ... you know, games which require STRATEGY to win. Hellbats dont give that same level of excitement+ Show Spoiler +
and in a sense they are like premature ejaculation ... the game is over far too quickly
.
I watch the games and I'd like them to get better. Having this kind of stats however makes me think that "hey, let's nerf Terran" approach is not the way to go, as the results are way to close for that.
And every "solution" to this problem is essentially a terran nerf, whereas the results show that it would be unreasonable.
The results doesn't show anything of the sort. They don't in any way show that a small tweek to make early hellbat drops weaker would lower the terran winratios. Again, ZvP winratios where close to 50% in WoL and noone could ever claim that infestor BL didn't need nerfs.
And whatever blizzard decides the tweaks should be small, messing around to much is never a good thing
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want?
I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even?
I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 11 11 10 actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea optimal: 11 11 10 actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners optimal: 3 2 2 actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists optimal: 4 5 5 actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me.
Where do you get those "optimal" numbers from? Don't ladder/# of progamer stats rather suggest something like: WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 10 11 11 - so more Protoss/Zerg than Terran (maybe even more than 10-11-11 in some regions)?
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT ENOUGH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA..
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
Hell that's what was the problem in WoL for 1.5 years straight anyways.. They NEVER put Terran UP for at least EVEN a SECOND to SEE which problems they might FACE from the other races anyway at all..
Yeah the screaming wasn't required. But I made apparantly the incorrect assumption you wanted a balanced game, but you want a game where terran is underpowered, which does explain the changes you propose.
(Not to mention at least the last 6 months of WoL was completely dominated by zerg, with terran the least played race in every league above silver).
And the 1.5 years before that ?
The Rax before Bunker, the +10 damage vs light of Infernal, the ridiculous Ghost all-kill unit ? - those were problems vs Zerg.. And suddenly - a miracle happened - noone saw that coming but fixed the matchup like for less than a day - the Queen got 5 range instead of 3 lol
The Infestor issue you say about was a Protoss issue/problem..
Terrans weren't losing to Zerg cause of the Infestor, go back and see WoL data and you'll see that IN FACT TvZ was THE matchup to look upon in terms of balance..
INSTEAD Terran were losing to Protosses cause of high rate of predictability of builds - i.e. - bio, bio, and only bio.. I approve WoL Terran Tears, but only vs Protoss, hell I played Terran vs Protoss too and know how it was - if not the Colossus, then at least any small amount of lag would make me pissed too..
However - claiming "Protoss tears" to Infestors in WoL for the course of those 6 months and abuse them is an act of "justification" of hate cause someone else was winning - not good my friend.. not good lol.. Nice try there.. hehe
"because of the high rate of predictability of builds" never heard such stupid thing, it shouldnt be about the build but how u execute it and also how many builds have protoss vs T? They either go colossi first or HT and then increase army size till they try to roll over the T, depending on the exact composition with lots of forcefields and storms (warning, this could require APM, not A-Move) or with addition of some archons.
and what you say about the infestor (no problem for terran) or ghost "ridiculous all kill unit" is a ridiculous statement itself. The infestor is still the shittiest designed unit in the game and terrans have lost tons of games against them. Either Bio Army got fungaled 2x and you lost everything, or spamming of infested terrans etc. When there was a ridiculous allkill unit then it was the infestor.
Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (35)
64%
Nerf Medivac "thrusters" (9)
16%
Remove bio tag ONLY (8)
15%
Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (3)
5%
Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (0)
0%
Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (0)
0%
55 total votes
Your vote: So many suggestions..so let´s go:
(Vote): Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (Vote): Remove bio tag ONLY (Vote): Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (Vote): Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (Vote): Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (Vote): Nerf Medivac "thrusters"
Two more suggestions:
- Nerf Hellbat HP (135 -> 90 I suggest)
- Make them more expensive by adding gas. 25 is ok.
Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (35)
64%
Nerf Medivac "thrusters" (9)
16%
Remove bio tag ONLY (8)
15%
Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (3)
5%
Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (0)
0%
Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (0)
0%
55 total votes
Your vote: So many suggestions..so let´s go:
(Vote): Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (Vote): Remove bio tag ONLY (Vote): Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (Vote): Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (Vote): Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (Vote): Nerf Medivac "thrusters"
- Keep Hellbats as they are, fix marines and siege tanks.
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want?
I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even?
I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 11 11 10 actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea optimal: 11 11 10 actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners optimal: 3 2 2 actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists optimal: 4 5 5 actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me.
Where do you get those "optimal" numbers from? Don't ladder/# of progamer stats rather suggest something like: WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 10 11 11 - so more Protoss/Zerg than Terran (maybe even more than 10-11-11 in some regions)?
well... I divided 32 by 3 and rounded up & down. You can rearrange the 10s and 11s as you like, still it will be pretty close.
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want?
I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even?
I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 11 11 10 actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea optimal: 11 11 10 actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners optimal: 3 2 2 actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists optimal: 4 5 5 actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me.
Where do you get those "optimal" numbers from? Don't ladder/# of progamer stats rather suggest something like: WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 10 11 11 - so more Protoss/Zerg than Terran (maybe even more than 10-11-11 in some regions)?
well... I divided 32 by 3 and rounded up & down. You can rearrange the 10s and 11s as you like, still it will be pretty close.
ah ok, well... I thought you had some intersting data behind it that suggested that more T/Ps than Zs are playing in Europe at the highest level etc.
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want?
I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even?
I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 11 11 10 actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea optimal: 11 11 10 actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners optimal: 3 2 2 actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists optimal: 4 5 5 actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me.
I guess you dont like to watch games and are only interested in the results then? Personally I am more a "the way you get there is the most important bit" kind of guy and winning through mainly Hellbat drops is more boring than a long drawn out game with strategic positions held, threatened and overrun ... you know, games which require STRATEGY to win. Hellbats dont give that same level of excitement+ Show Spoiler +
and in a sense they are like premature ejaculation ... the game is over far too quickly
.
I watch the games and I'd like them to get better. Having this kind of stats however makes me think that "hey, let's nerf Terran" approach is not the way to go, as the results are way to close for that.
And every "solution" to this problem is essentially a terran nerf, whereas the results show that it would be unreasonable.
The point is that you have to look at the games to figure out what kind of games you have ... Hellbat drops are too much of the "succeed and you have more or less won the game (even though it may go on another 10 minutes)" or "fail and you have to play normally (and are only behind a tiny bit)" kind of options and especially the first one is a clear coinflip ... which has no place in an RTS ... not even an RTA (which SC2 has become).
The bottom line is: Stop jerking off about statistics. They are less relevant than you think they are ... because of the coinflip thing. It is more important to look at what kind of games you want to see and hopefully even Blizzard realizes that games decided mostly by harrassment are BAD because they are far too volatile (coinflippy) and have less to do with actual player skill. Sure the player needs to be good at using "harrassment strategy X", but in the end it is the same problem as any other "critical number" composition (of which there are plenty ... on purpose) because they are far too efficient for the cost.
SKILL needs to be important in such a game, but that skill requirement should not be put on the defender but the attacker instead. Hellbat drops require minimum skill while requiring a lot of skill to counter. Hellbats are the super combo of good AoE damage against workers and high health and thus they are far more efficient than dropping Marines (which also takes longer since you have to drop eight units instead of just two.
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want?
I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even?
I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 11 11 10 actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea optimal: 11 11 10 actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners optimal: 3 2 2 actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists optimal: 4 5 5 actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me.
That's a way to narrow way to approach balance. You need to look at what actually happens in the games not only the winratios. TvZ in WoL was a long time balanced in winratios but lategame zerg seemed hugely favoured and alot of the terrans winratios where all ins. Maybe that makes it balance but personally I definitely want a more dynamic game then that.
having 64 players in WCS EU and WCS KR (as they are separate player pools) gives you a pretty snapshot of what does the top of SC2 in terms of skill looks like.
"Dynamic games" is yet another term for patching the meta. You want to patch the meta and destroy the balance and I am not fine with it, I want the meta to evolve by itself. It is simple as that.
you seem to live under the asumption that the meta always can evolve past a certain point. I think there definitely are situations where the meta can't fix balance. I do in general find that this is the best approach but you can't be to stubborn about it. If this is such a situation or not is not for me to decide, im way to low lvl for that and don't even play terran that much. I discuss to try to find the best solution but when you are so set in your idea of the meta will fix it there is kinda no reason to discuss. For me it feels like "put your fingers in your ears and scream META WILL FIX".
There definitely where situations in WoL where the meta got stagnant and the games got terrible to watch... or did you like the "immortal all in vs infestor broodlord" that PvZ evolved into? That was pretty much what we saw the last year.
Again, if this is the situation now or not is for the proscene to decide but don't get stuck in the notion of meta fixing it nor stare at winratios cause honestly, balance is way more complicated then that.
Like the moment they suddenly buffed queens and made this whole ordeal of hellion harass much more all-in and gimmicky. Blizzard will do what they want, in the end thats how meta shaped in SC2.
Infestor play, queen play (both "encouraged" by Blizzard)enabled "spontaneous" natural BroodLord transition.
PvZ however was always broken in the core (my opinion) because of how 2 races relate to each other in SC2. Its a different story.
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want?
I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even?
I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 11 11 10 actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea optimal: 11 11 10 actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners optimal: 3 2 2 actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists optimal: 4 5 5 actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me.
I guess you dont like to watch games and are only interested in the results then? Personally I am more a "the way you get there is the most important bit" kind of guy and winning through mainly Hellbat drops is more boring than a long drawn out game with strategic positions held, threatened and overrun ... you know, games which require STRATEGY to win. Hellbats dont give that same level of excitement+ Show Spoiler +
and in a sense they are like premature ejaculation ... the game is over far too quickly
.
I watch the games and I'd like them to get better. Having this kind of stats however makes me think that "hey, let's nerf Terran" approach is not the way to go, as the results are way to close for that.
And every "solution" to this problem is essentially a terran nerf, whereas the results show that it would be unreasonable.
The results doesn't show anything of the sort. They don't in any way show that a small tweek to make early hellbat drops weaker would lower the terran winratios. Again, ZvP winratios where close to 50% in WoL and noone could ever claim that infestor BL didn't need nerfs.
And whatever blizzard decides the tweaks should be small, messing around to much is never a good thing
I disagree. Balance is based purely on numbers and game quality is based on everything else.
Fast tech into harassment builds have a very small timing windows in TvZ and TvP, you need to do damage with your high tech units (read: hellbats) before the tech/eco or both kick in for the opponent. Making even a small adjustment will have major impact on size of these timing windows.
Probably Terran could survive without such builds in TvP/TvZ but I enjoy the variety.
If they nerf the hellbat damage without blue flame, anyone else think they should remove the transformation upgrade completely? Its only purpose was to delay hellbat timings but if they do crap for damage without blue flame, it serves the same thing.
It could also help make the unit a bit more straight-forward, right now its a mess.
On June 11 2013 11:38 geokilla wrote: WCS Season 1 is over and David Kim still wants to wait it out after watching how much damage the Hellbat drops do? This has been a problem since HOTS beta and has continued to been one. I got Hellbat dropped today and I didn't even bother going back home to defend my SCVs because I knew I would be too far behind. I just pushed into my opponent's natural and hoped for the best.
Honestly speaking, I think Hellbat drops are viable against all races right now. Just open with Hellbat drops and you're pretty much guaranteed to kill roughly a dozen workers if your opponent doesn't pull SCVs quick enough, whether they are playing Protoss, Zerg, or Terran.
Yeah, it's a bit weird. Everyone knows they are too strong, and it's not like it's a very complicated unit that needs "figuring out" like the widow mine/swarm host etc. No matter what kind of micro trick you do, they will always deal insane amount of damage.
Despite the fact, that, except for maybe a mod, no one will ever read my post on page 13, I need to state how awesome a guy David Kim seems to be. In my humble and utterly irrelevant opinion, he should give statements towards balance issues and (what's more important) Blizzard's goals of balancing much more often. If we KNOW why maps are designed as they are, when we are aware of the ideas behind the units, it is much much easier to give qualitatively better feedback. Furthermore we don't have to bitch around as fast, because we understand the ideas better. Being open has always been and will always be the way to go. So thank you very very very much Mr. Kim
In desperate hope of seeing you comment more frequently Vanimar
I love that they're starting to really think about this, i'm terran and hellbats drops in TvT are amazingly boring. Pretty hard to tweak this though, I guess the "Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (19)" could be a good idea, need to be tested imo.
On June 11 2013 18:25 Doublemint wrote: Very nice, seems like David Kim and the balance team do listen and come to similar conclusions
If they came come to similar conclusions to the community there would be no waiting it out to see if HB are too strong. And probably there would be no warpgate mechanic and stalkers would be 50x stronger. Or probably this game would be just like BW.
To be 100% honest, I'd rather people find a reasonable way to shut down or mitigate their effects rather than a straight up nerf. But the thing is, I don't see how that is possible, because as far as we know, the best method is a Turret AND a Bunker (maybe it'll change to something better later, but unlikely).
Whilst Innovation is mechanically the best player in the world, I feel Hellbat drops has given him a free pass in TvTs. The WCS Global Season Finals semifinal games against Mvp were good examples. Hellbat drops are hard to beat even if you expect it and prepare a strategy against it.
I won't jump into conclusions either but I'd like Blizzard to take a look into it. Last thing I want is drastic changes leading to the kind of GGLord Infestor era at the end of WoL but some changes are warranted and if done moderately can make the game better balance wise and also improve spectator experience.
On June 11 2013 18:31 Kabutomaru wrote: BL + infestor op in WoL? => Deal with it, Find a way to counter; Hellbat Drops difficult to stop? Fix Asap! (facepalm)
So what's your point ? Even if you're kinda right, it's better that they show improvements in the way they manage the balance of their game, don't you think ? I'm not for the "it was easy for zergs in end of WoL, now terrans have it easy, that's fair, see how it feels ?", i'm not fond of that kind of thinking. (i'm not saying TvZ is easy, was just for the example).
On June 11 2013 18:25 Doublemint wrote: Very nice, seems like David Kim and the balance team do listen and come to similar conclusions
If they came come to similar conclusions to the community there would be no waiting it out to see if HB are too strong. And probably there would be no warpgate mechanic and stalkers would be 50x stronger. Or probably this game would be just like BW.
Well I can't disagree with that, but this is SC2 and they cannot all of a sudden throw major design concepts out of the window. They take their sweet time fixing things but at least they are on the right track.
On June 11 2013 13:05 Waxangel wrote: fix the medivac, not the hellbat
harassment has become so easy it's no longer impressive
I'm with Wax on this.
Compared against the WoL Blue Flame Hellion drops, the hellbat threat pretty much lies in the fact that medivac boost allows high speed pick up and re-drop of hellbats to the escaping scv clusters, even if scvs are pulled and split (which is the proper response to a unit as slow as the hellbat, but with the current availability of boost technology, the hellbat's natural weakness of slow speed is nullified), where as in WoL, because of the speed nerfs to medivacs early in WoL, hellion drops relied on the hellion's own ground speed for chasing down workers, and thus could be defended passively by simcity or using other units to block. The power of the re-drop within the main on selective targets is so powerful that soft-counters like marauders and tanks die because of the quick surrounds made available by medivac boosts. the fact that hellbats receive healing with their bio tag is only icing on the problem.
Perhaps disable the medivac boost ability if there are any mechanical units in the medivac? It would but more risk on the attacker, because you couldn't always hot-pickup out of the drop zone. However a noticeable con to this solution is that it endangers a lot of current battlefield tactics that revolve around hellbat drops on the battlefront (ie boosting to drop within or behind a cluster of bio units in all Terran matchups). Such drops would theoretically still be possible but would be significantly more vulnerable to anti-air units like marines, hydras, and stalkers... But then perhaps it would encourage more direct pushes with hellbats that would actually make use of it's bio tag.
I think that a pre-igniter change will help, but won't solve the core problem.
1. early game to comletely wipe out a mineral line
2. late game to buff the terran army against the AOE damage a protoss has.
#1 is completely favoured towards terran, if they rush for 4 hellbats and 2 medivacs they are gauranteed to completely wipe out an entire mineral line before you can actually get the hellbats down. I've tested it in a game last night, where i saw it coming and setup my defenses for it. I put 3 cannons in each mineral line, and 3 stalkers in each mineral line and have my mothership core between my 2 bases for photon overcharge.
He boosted both his medivacs for my main mineral line, i photon overcharged and focused down the medivacs first, then the hellbats. Guess how many workers i had leftover? 2 total ( those that were in the gas geysers )
Now don't get me wrong, ofcourse i could also pull workers. do crazy micro to get them out of harms way, but the fact that i was OVERpreparing for a drop and still they got to kill 20+ workers is just straight up ridiculous, and that's not harassment, that's herp derp i can win the game with this every single time if my opponent makes 1 small mistake, and how much does it costs me? 600 minerals and 200 gas.
For me as a protoss to get the same effect i need 2 archon inside a warp prism. Now i know that comparing two races directly is not the way to go, but in terms of devastating harass terrans have it the easiest.
Make them require the transformation servos + armory so that the super early game harass will be gone, but midgame harass still viable, and lategame into army composition also viable.
Also it's really important to look at games and see how they progress in terms of balance. the number of T/Z/P in a certain tournaments top 16 can mean anything. if certain parts of a races composition is too strong, people deal with it by just allinning before that and win that way.
That means there would be 2 unbalanced situations in that matchup, namely the Allin from player 1 is too strong, and the unit/army composition from player 2 is too strong. and Blizzard needs to adress unbalanced things in the game MUCH MUCH faster then they do now.
1. Medivac booster activation costs a certain amount of energy (similar to Oracle). Retain cooldown. 2. Hellbats require blueflame upgrade to reach full damage potential. Slight damage nerf.
On June 11 2013 18:49 Sapphire.lux wrote: How about an upgrade requirement for medivac boost instead?
Or make the medivac speedboost cost 25 or 50 mana as mentioned in one of the pre-HOTS SOTG's, which is probably a lot less extreme than most solutions posted so far.
On June 11 2013 18:51 Proseat wrote: Two-pronged approach:
1. Medivac booster activation costs a certain amount of energy (similar to Oracle). Retain cooldown. 2. Hellbats require blueflame upgrade to reach full damage potential. Slight damage nerf.
I actually really like this idea.
Especially the medivac change. It makes it so that there's a tradeoff between boosting and healing. If you boost to get to places faster, theres less healing. So it makes the player decide on speed or vitality.
I think they should add some gas to their cost. In the least this means there are some opportunity costs when you build a hellbat, and it might be that the gas they spend on their hellbats delays their medivacs, achieving the slowing effect on the build that Kim wants.
On June 11 2013 18:49 Sapphire.lux wrote: How about an upgrade requirement for medivac boost instead?
Or make the medivac speedboost cost 25 or 50 mana as mentioned in one of the pre-HOTS SOTG's
ninja'd
Ok but that would be a big detriment to bio play in general, while not having the biggest impact on early drops. It would help, but at a massive cost for mid and late game bio.
On June 11 2013 18:49 Sapphire.lux wrote: How about an upgrade requirement for medivac boost instead?
Sure. Then how about an upgrade requirement for the Photon Vercharge and the Mutalisk speed???
If Hellbat drops are problematic (don't know if they are) then something has got to give, and i don't want factory units to get nerfed while mech is still so rare.
in my opinion hots is a bad designed game - its only good because of the massive amount of players playing it. (YES THATS THE REASON WHY SC2 IS AWESOME!) the balance is overall shit in my opinion: Terran plays like Zerg nowadays and the only way to punish them for a Zerg player is to allin or defend till ultralisk are out. Protoss feels like they are the only race where the units seem to actually fit into the gamedesign.
anyway david should get fired - that guy is annoying.
Note that David Kim did not actually say that they will do anything. And I like this. I do not see a massive problem with hellbats, not even in TvT. This is because the days when Fantasy could hellbat drop all over the place are gone, and smart players know how to defend against them, it's just that it's difficult to do.
I like the fact that just dropping hellbats does nearly nothing when the defender pulls probes. It's only when someone like Innovation does it against a lesser opponent that they do massive damage. And that's what we want from harassment: a good skill-based scale of damage. In the end, TvT is currently incredibly technical with constant multi-harass and multi-defense. It's great and awe-inspiring to watch (sorry pro's if you don't like playing it).
As other's have said, TvX is harass-based, while ZvX and PvX are a lot more stale. Instead of removing the harass-based play, we should improve the harass-potential of the other races. Although, P still has unexplored harass-options which only Rain seems to utilize at the moment.
On June 11 2013 19:11 FOREIGN735 wrote: in my opinion hots is a bad designed game - its only good because of the massive amount of players playing it. (YES THATS THE REASON WHY SC2 IS AWESOME!) the balance is overall shit in my opinion: Terran plays like Zerg nowadays and the only way to punish them for a Zerg player is to allin or defend till ultralisk are out. Protoss feels like they are the only race where the units seem to actually fit into the gamedesign.
anyway david should get fired - that guy is annoying.
I always wondered if it took longer to create a troll account, or to make a troll post. Maybe I should try it out some time and find out.
The idea is nice but it should be kept in that way so that it will affect early game only. In late game terrans have no other simplistic and cheap harras option other then hellbat drops. They should not change a "click on mineral line" harras option for late game which is the terran equivalent of sending a few lings or warping a dt. All of these are easy to execute and at very low cost so that you don't care about them after clicking on the mineral line, however all are easily stopped by basic static defense.
TL;DR: dont do goddambiggamechangernerfs, nerfing earlygame is fine.
On June 11 2013 18:25 Doublemint wrote: Very nice, seems like David Kim and the balance team do listen and come to similar conclusions
This is a piece of the Hellbat criticism I wrote on October 27th, 2012, a few days after recieving beta access:
"The Hellbat is also too cost effective for a mineral only unit. It is not only an effective main line fighter but it can harass very effectively. Furthermore, when dropped from Medivacs Hellbats easily wipe out a mineral line in a few shots with it's wide arc of fire. Think pre-nerf Blue Flame Hellions! "
I also shared it with the Blizzard team (via the Beta forum) on that date. Yet it was released in a fashion that may end up requiring two nerfs to fix. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought of this. Blizzard seems to have absolutely no foresight, and certainly won't listen to logic, history, or the community.
On June 11 2013 18:51 Proseat wrote: Two-pronged approach:
1. Medivac booster activation costs a certain amount of energy (similar to Oracle). Retain cooldown. 2. Hellbats require blueflame upgrade to reach full damage potential. Slight damage nerf.
I actually really like this idea.
Especially the medivac change. It makes it so that there's a tradeoff between boosting and healing. If you boost to get to places faster, theres less healing. So it makes the player decide on speed or vitality.
Hmmm... But if medivac needs energy to boost, that would make the feedback less effective.
How about: (I have made 1&2 bold because they are really important!!!)
1.Medivac requires research to have booster (or just nerf to longer cooldown) 2.Hellbat with no bio tag 3.Hellbat will have +1 armor 3.Hellbat will have 2 cargo size 4.No transformation servo. only require armory. 5.No longer build from Factory. Require Hellion to be built and transform.
I think hellbats with blueflame is a great idea!!! I always wondered why
On June 11 2013 13:05 Waxangel wrote: fix the medivac, not the hellbat
harassment has become so easy it's no longer impressive
I'm with Wax on this.
Compared against the WoL Blue Flame Hellion drops, the hellbat threat pretty much lies in the fact that medivac boost allows high speed pick up and re-drop of hellbats to the escaping scv clusters, even if scvs are pulled and split (which is the proper response to a unit as slow as the hellbat, but with the current availability of boost technology, the hellbat's natural weakness of slow speed is nullified), where as in WoL, because of the speed nerfs to medivacs early in WoL, hellion drops relied on the hellion's own ground speed for chasing down workers, and thus could be defended passively by simcity or using other units to block. The power of the re-drop within the main on selective targets is so powerful that soft-counters like marauders and tanks die because of the quick surrounds made available by medivac boosts. the fact that hellbats receive healing with their bio tag is only icing on the problem.
Perhaps disable the medivac boost ability if there are any mechanical units in the medivac? It would but more risk on the attacker, because you couldn't always hot-pickup out of the drop zone. However a noticeable con to this solution is that it endangers a lot of current battlefield tactics that revolve around hellbat drops on the battlefront (ie boosting to drop within or behind a cluster of bio units in all Terran matchups). Such drops would theoretically still be possible but would be significantly more vulnerable to anti-air units like marines, hydras, and stalkers... But then perhaps it would encourage more direct pushes with hellbats that would actually make use of it's bio tag.
I think that a pre-igniter change will help, but won't solve the core problem.
I agree, and I like the idea of some kind of nerf to the boost ability, especially one that forces a choice between healing and boosting. An energy requirement to boost would be interesting - and would give Terrans an interesting option to intentionally drain the energy on their Medivacs before dropping against Protoss. Another option would be something that straight up forces T to choose whether he wants healing or boost for a particular drop, for example by making boost completely drain the Medivac's energy, or by giving the Medivac a 5-second transform between healing mode and boosting mode.
On June 11 2013 18:49 Sapphire.lux wrote: How about an upgrade requirement for medivac boost instead?
Sure. Then how about an upgrade requirement for the Photon Vercharge and the Mutalisk speed???
If Hellbat drops are problematic (don't know if they are) then something has got to give, and i don't want factory units to get nerfed while mech is still so rare.
They are ONLY in TvT, because are dominatig the MU. Mech is not rare, dont know why are you saying this.It Works pretty well in all MUs
Changing the damage makes the most sense. Particularly if you only want to change tvt. Probes and drones have 40 hp while scvs have 45. If the hellbat does 20,21 or 22 damage to light before the igniter upgrade then it still 2 shots probes and drones but 3 shots scvs, it would also still 2 shot lings but then take 3 shots to kill marines. The standard damage could also be reduced so that units like marauders, tanks or roaches have an easier time against them while the hellbats still destroy light units.
(22 damage to light would take 7 shots to kill a zealot while 21 or 20 takes 8)
It still takes time to see how all of the strategies develop, if they jump in to change things too quickly then strengths and weaknesses of positioning/timings, unit compositions and so on never become established and its too hard to distinguish a good play from a bad one.
On June 11 2013 18:49 Sapphire.lux wrote: How about an upgrade requirement for medivac boost instead?
Sure. Then how about an upgrade requirement for the Photon Vercharge and the Mutalisk speed???
If Hellbat drops are problematic (don't know if they are) then something has got to give, and i don't want factory units to get nerfed while mech is still so rare.
They are ONLY in TvT, because are dominatig the MU. Mech is not rare, dont know why are you saying this.It Works pretty well in all MUs
They are not more problematic in TvT than in the other matchups. In fact, they are much less problematic, as in the worst case, both sides go hellbats and thus there is no coinflipping involved as in the other matchups. The difference is only that in TvT both sides often do them, so not 50% but 100% of the strategies in a set come down to hellbats.
Medivac boost costing energy forces too much energy management, while dropping 3 different places you would need to stim your units, pick your targets and disable medivac healing if necessary so you have enough to boost out.
Longer cooldown is all the medivac needs, this way you can boost into their base but can't use it again to boost over their fleeing workers, or to escape. Although with terran winrates looking balanced I understand why Blizzard would be hesitant to change the medivac.
On June 11 2013 18:49 Sapphire.lux wrote: How about an upgrade requirement for medivac boost instead?
Sure. Then how about an upgrade requirement for the Photon Vercharge and the Mutalisk speed???
If Hellbat drops are problematic (don't know if they are) then something has got to give, and i don't want factory units to get nerfed while mech is still so rare.
They are ONLY in TvT, because are dominatig the MU. Mech is not rare, dont know why are you saying this.It Works pretty well in all MUs
No.
And why the hell people don't make hellions. Pulling scv's is that hard ? Having a turret plus a viking neglect any kind of re-pick (which also requires control from your opponent, and people are speaking of which like it's drop the hellbats and forget).
I would prefer increased cooldown on the boost than an energy requirement. The player should have to choose between getting in fast or getting out fast. Being able to do both in such a short period of time is hurting the game i think.
On June 11 2013 19:39 Fjodorov wrote: I would prefer increased cooldown on the boost than an energy requirement. The player should have to choose between getting in fast or getting out fast. Being able to do both in such a short period of time is hurting the game i think.
I like this idea, it'd create an interesting risk/reward dynamic
On June 11 2013 19:15 Ghanburighan wrote: Note that David Kim did not actually say that they will do anything. And I like this. I do not see a massive problem with hellbats, not even in TvT. This is because the days when Fantasy could hellbat drop all over the place are gone, and smart players know how to defend against them, it's just that it's difficult to do.
I like the fact that just dropping hellbats does nearly nothing when the defender pulls probes. It's only when someone like Innovation does it against a lesser opponent that they do massive damage. And that's what we want from harassment: a good skill-based scale of damage. In the end, TvT is currently incredibly technical with constant multi-harass and multi-defense. It's great and awe-inspiring to watch (sorry pro's if you don't like playing it).
As other's have said, TvX is harass-based, while ZvX and PvX are a lot more stale. Instead of removing the harass-based play, we should improve the harass-potential of the other races. Although, P still has unexplored harass-options which only Rain seems to utilize at the moment.
It doesnt matter that he did not say anything about doing anything ... because they dont have to do anything even if he said something.
The important part here is that the community says something ... quite a lot ... which should be a big warning sign to Browder and Kim that things arent as they should be.
I miss my predator and other campaign-only mech units... I hope we will more mech units in the future! (p.s Is hellbat mech or bio? I'm always confused :/)
On June 11 2013 19:37 Bagi wrote: Medivac boost costing energy forces too much energy management, while dropping 3 different places you would need to stim your units, pick your targets and disable medivac healing if necessary so you have enough to boost out.
Longer cooldown is all the medivac needs, this way you can boost into their base but can't use it again to boost over their fleeing workers, or to escape. Although with terran winrates looking balanced I understand why Blizzard would be hesitant to change the medivac.
Winrates are "balanced" in your eyes because of statistics, but you fail to see how those statistics become those numbers,
i.e. i'm a protoss player and i see early 2x medivac 4x hellbat drops more and more, so i 1 base all in with blink stalkers which makes me win against this opening. because there are builds that are hard countered against my blink all in, i'm flipping a coin to hope that they open up hellbats. That's why you see a reasonable winrate % but fail to see what is actually going on in the game itself.
Does that mean the game is balanced? fuck no! the game is even more stale in this way then actually changing the hellbat and making more openings viable. Ideally everything should be viable to use, but also reasonable to defend with same amount of skill/micro involved.
Ideally i think a SC2 game should last 20 minutes where the first maxout is 20 minutes. in it's current state i think games last on average 15 minutes with a maxout at 13-14 minutes depedning on what race you play. And i hope we have some smart cookies here that understand what i'm saying.
On June 11 2013 19:37 Bagi wrote: Medivac boost costing energy forces too much energy management, while dropping 3 different places you would need to stim your units, pick your targets and disable medivac healing if necessary so you have enough to boost out.
Longer cooldown is all the medivac needs, this way you can boost into their base but can't use it again to boost over their fleeing workers, or to escape. Although with terran winrates looking balanced I understand why Blizzard would be hesitant to change the medivac.
Winrates are "balanced" in your eyes because of statistics, but you fail to see how those statistics become those numbers,
i.e. i'm a protoss player and i see early 2x medivac 4x hellbat drops more and more, so i 1 base all in with blink stalkers which makes me win against this opening. because there are builds that are hard countered against my blink all in, i'm flipping a coin to hope that they open up hellbats. That's why you see a reasonable winrate % but fail to see what is actually going on in the game itself.
Does that mean the game is balanced? fuck no! the game is even more stale in this way then actually changing the hellbat and making more openings viable. Ideally everything should be viable to use, but also reasonable to defend with same amount of skill/micro involved.
Ideally i think a SC2 game should last 20 minutes where the first maxout is 20 minutes. in it's current state i think games last on average 15 minutes with a maxout at 13-14 minutes depedning on what race you play. And i hope we have some smart cookies here that understand what i'm saying.
I see your point but pro games are hardly devolving into mass hellbat drops madness (TvT being the exception), and those are the winrates we should be looking at.
I really hope David Kim or someone like him reads this thread haha. Some nice ideas like decreasing the agility so you cant change directions etc. that easily and make it harder to control. The increased cooldown thing sounds also great!
Referring to Hellbats rather than the medivacs I think healing is one of the main problems..I've seen like 40 lings dying to 2 hellbats and I don't really think, that that is how it is supposed to be. Don't know why people think that damage nerf to 19 or so would be too sick. They would still 2 shot zerglings, even with carapace upgrade. You could just change it to 19 (+11 vs Light with blue flame). Kind of weird numbers but well, it's working out that way.
On June 11 2013 19:37 Bagi wrote: Medivac boost costing energy forces too much energy management, while dropping 3 different places you would need to stim your units, pick your targets and disable medivac healing if necessary so you have enough to boost out.
Longer cooldown is all the medivac needs, this way you can boost into their base but can't use it again to boost over their fleeing workers, or to escape. Although with terran winrates looking balanced I understand why Blizzard would be hesitant to change the medivac.
Winrates are "balanced" in your eyes because of statistics, but you fail to see how those statistics become those numbers,
i.e. i'm a protoss player and i see early 2x medivac 4x hellbat drops more and more, so i 1 base all in with blink stalkers which makes me win against this opening. because there are builds that are hard countered against my blink all in, i'm flipping a coin to hope that they open up hellbats. That's why you see a reasonable winrate % but fail to see what is actually going on in the game itself.
Does that mean the game is balanced? fuck no! the game is even more stale in this way then actually changing the hellbat and making more openings viable. Ideally everything should be viable to use, but also reasonable to defend with same amount of skill/micro involved.
Ideally i think a SC2 game should last 20 minutes where the first maxout is 20 minutes. in it's current state i think games last on average 15 minutes with a maxout at 13-14 minutes depedning on what race you play. And i hope we have some smart cookies here that understand what i'm saying.
Yep. Blizzard shouldn't brought back those firebats. Even though blizzard tried to make a new game out of BW, they still bring back the good old firebats! + Show Spoiler +
Why don't you give that role to predator? they do splash dmg?
On June 11 2013 19:50 GeOnoSis wrote: I really hope David Kim or someone like him reads this thread haha. Some nice ideas like decreasing the agility so you cant change directions etc. that easily and make it harder to control. The increased cooldown thing sounds also great!
Referring to Hellbats rather than the medivacs I think healing is one of the main problems..I've seen like 40 lings dying to 2 hellbats and I don't really think, that that is how it is supposed to be. Don't know why people think that damage nerf to 19 or so would be too sick. They would still 2 shot zerglings, even with carapace upgrade. You could just change it to 19 (+11 vs Light with blue flame). Kind of weird numbers but well, it's working out that way.
+2! It slightly nerfs medivac but increasing its complexity would be more fun to watch!
On June 11 2013 18:51 Proseat wrote: Two-pronged approach:
1. Medivac booster activation costs a certain amount of energy (similar to Oracle). Retain cooldown. 2. Hellbats require blueflame upgrade to reach full damage potential. Slight damage nerf.
I actually really like this idea.
Especially the medivac change. It makes it so that there's a tradeoff between boosting and healing. If you boost to get to places faster, theres less healing. So it makes the player decide on speed or vitality.
Hmmm... But if medivac needs energy to boost, that would make the feedback less effective.
How about: (I have made 1&2 bold because they are really important!!!)
1.Medivac requires research to have booster (or just nerf to longer cooldown) 2.Hellbat with no bio tag 3.Hellbat will have +1 armor 3.Hellbat will have 2 cargo size 4.No transformation servo. only require armory. 5.No longer build from Factory. Require Hellion to be built and transform.
I think hellbats with blueflame is a great idea!!! I always wondered why
Well for the Medivac change a longer cooldown would work too. But I'm still kind of a fan of the energy requirement.
Like imagine if there was no cooldown and boosters were just an on/off toggle like the Oracle. Then for one make it makes the medivac energy upgrade more useful, and it opens up a few more decisions/choices for the player. You'd be able to boost for longer (but obviously it must be balanced), but if you do then you can't heal as much. But on the other hand if you boost more you can spend medivac energy which makes them stronger against feedback, but they can't heal.
I think it'll lead to some interesting decisions like whether or not the player wants to be more "aggressive" and boost everywhere with drops rather than to be more conservative and allow their units to live longer. Plus then there's bounds to be those tense mistakes when a player has boosters on by accident and expends all of their medivac energy right before a big fight.
On June 11 2013 19:46 TechSc2 wrote: Ideally i think a SC2 game should last 20 minutes where the first maxout is 20 minutes. in it's current state i think games last on average 15 minutes with a maxout at 13-14 minutes depedning on what race you play. And i hope we have some smart cookies here that understand what i'm saying.
I don't agree with you at all TvP Terran maxes are about 16 minutes, Protoss maxes about 18 minutes, and most games end before TvP reaches the maxed stage TvZ In top level play no-one really maxes until after hive tech, constant Terran bio-mine pushes means both sides lose a lot of units. TvT Hellbats all day. If someone isn't dead already before max, whoever maxes first really depends on who lost less to hellbats. PvZ Zerg maxes pretty early (remember the 11 minute Stephano roach max?) and protoss generally catches up around 18 minutes. Protoss does a lot of 2 base all-in though, and those games don't generally reach the maxed stage, and with 3 base play, Protosses can often die to mutalisks or hydralisks before max. PvP First, you might die straight out to 1 base play. Second, you might die to a push before maxed. Then if both players reach maxed, they don't generally fight immediately upon maxing; there is usually a lot of posturing etc. And certainly not at 13-14 minutes. ZvZ ZvZ ends early a lot, either you die at the ling/bane hatch tech, or you die to or fail a roach push, or you die to mutalisks, or you get cheesed in some other way. There is a tendency for players to go roach hydra now, but it's certainly not a 13-14 minute maxed game.
In conclusion I have no idea what you are talking about, what you are saying does not match with the current metagame.
On June 11 2013 19:46 TechSc2 wrote: Ideally i think a SC2 game should last 20 minutes where the first maxout is 20 minutes. in it's current state i think games last on average 15 minutes with a maxout at 13-14 minutes depedning on what race you play. And i hope we have some smart cookies here that understand what i'm saying.
I don't agree with you at all TvP Terran maxes are about 16 minutes, Protoss maxes about 18 minutes, and most games end before TvP reaches the maxed stage TvZ In top level play no-one really maxes until after hive tech, constant Terran bio-mine pushes means both sides lose a lot of units. TvT Hellbats all day. If someone isn't dead already before max, whoever maxes first really depends on who lost less to hellbats. PvZ Zerg maxes pretty early (remember the 11 minute Stephano roach max?) and protoss generally catches up around 18 minutes. Protoss does a lot of 2 base all-in though, and those games don't generally reach the maxed stage, and with 3 base play, Protosses can often die to mutalisks or hydralisks before max. PvP First, you might die straight out to 1 base play. Second, you might die to a push before maxed. Then if both players reach maxed, they don't generally fight immediately upon maxing; there is usually a lot of posturing etc. And certainly not at 13-14 minutes. ZvZ ZvZ ends early a lot, either you die at the ling/bane hatch tech, or you die to or fail a roach push, or you die to mutalisks, or you get cheesed in some other way. There is a tendency for players to go roach hydra now, but it's certainly not a 13-14 minute maxed game.
In conclusion I have no idea what you are talking about, what you are saying does not match with the current metagame.
You forgot swarm hosts in PvZ! Anyway, totally agreed in TvT!!!
I for one hope they experiment with the medivac boost ability since it will probably be the least invasive balance design . An interesting mechanic would be something like a fully loaded medivac that uses its boost only gains half the effect.
Though its probably not the most elegant solution.
On June 11 2013 18:51 Proseat wrote: Two-pronged approach:
1. Medivac booster activation costs a certain amount of energy (similar to Oracle). Retain cooldown. 2. Hellbats require blueflame upgrade to reach full damage potential. Slight damage nerf.
I actually really like this idea.
Especially the medivac change. It makes it so that there's a tradeoff between boosting and healing. If you boost to get to places faster, theres less healing. So it makes the player decide on speed or vitality.
The 2 problems I see right now.
Hellbats+medivac are too tanky relative to how many units you need to stop it before critical damage is attained(mostly early game problem). Rolling the damage in with blue flame could be one option. It'd reduce the number of hellbats you can make early on(techlab+research time), and delay higher damage timings by a small amount
Afterburners - strength of the skill doesn't match the cost. 25 energy cost is pretty reasonable. If you pick a medivac with mid-high energy(say around 100), that gives 50 energy for healing while retaining enough to boost in and boost out. The biggest effect would be to reduce the efficacy of brute forcing drops until they work(medivac boost lets them escape pretty much any bad situation, and it only takes one crack in defenses to take critical damage from a hellbat drop).
On June 11 2013 18:49 Sapphire.lux wrote: How about an upgrade requirement for medivac boost instead?
Sure. Then how about an upgrade requirement for the Photon Vercharge and the Mutalisk speed???
If Hellbat drops are problematic (don't know if they are) then something has got to give, and i don't want factory units to get nerfed while mech is still so rare.
They are ONLY in TvT, because are dominatig the MU.
They are definitely problematic in TvT, not so much other MU i agree.
Mech is not rare, dont know why are you saying this.It Works pretty well in all MUs
Outside of TvT this is not my experience at all, and i'm actually "hunting" for mech games in all the big tournaments. It's bio 99% in TvZ and almost 100% TvP, with Strelok and a couple of other games making the exceptions. Mech is very rare at the top level.
The second they get nerfed though, i shall be worried for terran. Really hellbats are keeping terran alive vs P. Without them P is going to be crushing terran. terribly.
On June 11 2013 20:58 xtyxtbx wrote: The second they get nerfed though, i shall be worried for terran. Really hellbats are keeping terran alive vs P. Without them P is going to be crushing terran. terribly.
Hellbats is definitely valuable vs chargelots, but this is a late-game scenario. Blue flame should be researched at this stage.
On June 11 2013 18:49 Sapphire.lux wrote: How about an upgrade requirement for medivac boost instead?
Sure. Then how about an upgrade requirement for the Photon Vercharge and the Mutalisk speed???
If Hellbat drops are problematic (don't know if they are) then something has got to give, and i don't want factory units to get nerfed while mech is still so rare.
They are ONLY in TvT, because are dominatig the MU.
They are definitely problematic in TvT, not so much other MU i agree.
Mech is not rare, dont know why are you saying this.It Works pretty well in all MUs
Outside of TvT this is not my experience at all, and i'm actually "hunting" for mech games in all the big tournaments. It's bio 99% in TvZ and almost 100% TvP, with Strelok and a couple of other games making the exceptions. Mech is very rare at the top level.
TvZ mech play, you should look at Mvp's play. He admits that it probably isn't as good as bio, but there is much to be explored.
On June 11 2013 10:57 FeyFey wrote: too easy to execute hehehe, interesting conclusion wonder what they based this upon. Especially when most people fail defending and doing hellbat drops at the same time.
Meaning that hellbat dropper has easier time controlling the drop and making sure he get maximum value out of it than the defender can prevent from taking damage. If they fail in defending just mean that they have worse multitasking and/or control than their opponent.
And we shall continue to make them even worse design wise. It's already a mech unit that becomes biological, can be healed but not stimmed/put in bunkers and depending on it's mode it takes up a different amount of cargo space, plus magically loosing blueflame in hellbat form. Let's see how much more they are willing to fuck it up before realising that allowing the hellion to become an aoe marauder was a bad idea to begin with.
Ah well maybe they'll over nerf it like they over buffed spores...
On June 11 2013 18:49 Sapphire.lux wrote: How about an upgrade requirement for medivac boost instead?
Sure. Then how about an upgrade requirement for the Photon Vercharge and the Mutalisk speed???
If Hellbat drops are problematic (don't know if they are) then something has got to give, and i don't want factory units to get nerfed while mech is still so rare.
They are ONLY in TvT, because are dominatig the MU.
They are definitely problematic in TvT, not so much other MU i agree.
Mech is not rare, dont know why are you saying this.It Works pretty well in all MUs
Outside of TvT this is not my experience at all, and i'm actually "hunting" for mech games in all the big tournaments. It's bio 99% in TvZ and almost 100% TvP, with Strelok and a couple of other games making the exceptions. Mech is very rare at the top level.
TvZ mech play, you should look at Mvp's play. He admits that it probably isn't as good as bio, but there is much to be explored.
On June 11 2013 10:52 SoOJuuu wrote: took them long enough to figuire it out. sigh better late then never.
Better late than insta-knee jerk nerf.
I totally agree with this! Better safe than sorry.
I also don't really see a problem with TvT. It might be that both players are "forced" to open hellbats but after "the dust" has settled and both have equal skill they are fit to head into the midgame. It brings some nice explosive action into the first minutes of the game. On the other hand it may be too volatile. sigh.
On June 11 2013 19:15 Ghanburighan wrote: Note that David Kim did not actually say that they will do anything. And I like this. I do not see a massive problem with hellbats, not even in TvT. This is because the days when Fantasy could hellbat drop all over the place are gone, and smart players know how to defend against them, it's just that it's difficult to do.
I like the fact that just dropping hellbats does nearly nothing when the defender pulls probes. It's only when someone like Innovation does it against a lesser opponent that they do massive damage. And that's what we want from harassment: a good skill-based scale of damage. In the end, TvT is currently incredibly technical with constant multi-harass and multi-defense. It's great and awe-inspiring to watch (sorry pro's if you don't like playing it).
As other's have said, TvX is harass-based, while ZvX and PvX are a lot more stale. Instead of removing the harass-based play, we should improve the harass-potential of the other races. Although, P still has unexplored harass-options which only Rain seems to utilize at the moment.
It doesnt matter that he did not say anything about doing anything ... because they dont have to do anything even if he said something.
The important part here is that the community says something ... quite a lot ... which should be a big warning sign to Browder and Kim that things arent as they should be.
The fact that the community complains about something says Nothing about real problems. This community is whiny as anything. Remember when HOTS came out and everyone and their mother bitched about ZvT being impossible, and that T will win every tournament. Well, Zerg ended up taking MLG, Dreamhack and the GSL, i.e., the early premier tournaments. T has won IEM (where no Korean Z showed up), WCS Europe (hello Mvp) and WCS 1 (hello Innovation). And the win rates at the top are very much decent.
I repeat, this community and this thread complains way too much. Look for facts, not public perception of affairs.
He finally sees what we have been saying since beta. Better late than never I suppose. I think removing the bio tag and making the bonus damage slightly later would help. Like its meant to be a late game unit and it should be used as one so putting it behind upgrades and making the early game shit almost impossible or at least more all in makes a lot of sense.
Pre-igniter seems a very good idea but to counterbalance the weakness early game they should counter balance it with more dmg output when the upgrade is done so hellbats will be really scary lategame.
like others have said, you don't even have to kill probes or drones to make it worth it. With good micro you can force him to get behind just through the delayed mining time. Terran can just make you pull and then focus on macro'ing rather than actually trying to kill anything.
then they come back with 2 medivacs next time, then 3 if they want etc.
way too easy to pull off, and even worse it's way to easy to just leave because of afterburners
I'm not sure about the pre-igniter idea. Seems that hellbats with medivacs infront of a siege tank army mid-lategame just obliterates bio armies. Almost making mech the only viable strategy in TvT.
I think it would be enough to remove bio tag. That would at least make the defending hellbats as equally strong with the dropping ones, making it possible to have the defenders atvantage.
The only problem with the hellbat that I have is that it's a mineral dump unit that counters every other mineral dump really efficiently. That and the fact that it can be healed by medivacs.
I hope they don't change turbo boost too drastically, a longer cooldown would make it more valuable to hold onto rather than just keeping it off cooldown.
Just don't allow units to be dropped while afterburners are ignited. Afterburners imo were meant to get medivacs to a target quicker and giving drops a chance to survive so you didn't have to do damage, not to drop slow units on top of workers, that just seems broken.
On June 11 2013 19:15 Ghanburighan wrote: Note that David Kim did not actually say that they will do anything. And I like this. I do not see a massive problem with hellbats, not even in TvT. This is because the days when Fantasy could hellbat drop all over the place are gone, and smart players know how to defend against them, it's just that it's difficult to do.
I like the fact that just dropping hellbats does nearly nothing when the defender pulls probes. It's only when someone like Innovation does it against a lesser opponent that they do massive damage. And that's what we want from harassment: a good skill-based scale of damage. In the end, TvT is currently incredibly technical with constant multi-harass and multi-defense. It's great and awe-inspiring to watch (sorry pro's if you don't like playing it).
As other's have said, TvX is harass-based, while ZvX and PvX are a lot more stale. Instead of removing the harass-based play, we should improve the harass-potential of the other races. Although, P still has unexplored harass-options which only Rain seems to utilize at the moment.
It doesnt matter that he did not say anything about doing anything ... because they dont have to do anything even if he said something.
The important part here is that the community says something ... quite a lot ... which should be a big warning sign to Browder and Kim that things arent as they should be.
The fact that the community complains about something says Nothing about real problems. This community is whiny as anything. Remember when HOTS came out and everyone and their mother bitched about ZvT being impossible, and that T will win every tournament. Well, Zerg ended up taking MLG, Dreamhack and the GSL, i.e., the early premier tournaments. T has won IEM (where no Korean Z showed up), WCS Europe (hello Mvp) and WCS 1 (hello Innovation). And the win rates at the top are very much decent.
I repeat, this community and this thread complains way too much. Look for facts, not public perception of affairs.
You sound very biased The tournament a zerg won (MLG) One Zerg of all zergs could compete versus the terrans, the rest of the zergs HAD ZERO CHANCE!
It was Life that could compete, and he did WIN, but damn did he fight like hell versus the terrans he met, jesus (hello life)
How about giving some delay on units when they are dropped from the medivac? This was implemented in BW because protoss reaver was not used as it meant to be (as a seize unit) but rather used in combination with shuttle and destroyed mineral lines so fast. That's why reaver cannot attack for a couple of game seconds after a patch. Just a suggestion.
On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote: 1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want?
I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even?
I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 11 11 10 actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea optimal: 11 11 10 actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners optimal: 3 2 2 actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists optimal: 4 5 5 actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me.
I guess you dont like to watch games and are only interested in the results then? Personally I am more a "the way you get there is the most important bit" kind of guy and winning through mainly Hellbat drops is more boring than a long drawn out game with strategic positions held, threatened and overrun ... you know, games which require STRATEGY to win. Hellbats dont give that same level of excitement+ Show Spoiler +
and in a sense they are like premature ejaculation ... the game is over far too quickly
.
I watch the games and I'd like them to get better. Having this kind of stats however makes me think that "hey, let's nerf Terran" approach is not the way to go, as the results are way to close for that.
And every "solution" to this problem is essentially a terran nerf, whereas the results show that it would be unreasonable.
The results doesn't show anything of the sort. They don't in any way show that a small tweek to make early hellbat drops weaker would lower the terran winratios. Again, ZvP winratios where close to 50% in WoL and noone could ever claim that infestor BL didn't need nerfs.
And whatever blizzard decides the tweaks should be small, messing around to much is never a good thing
I disagree. Balance is based purely on numbers and game quality is based on everything else.
Fast tech into harassment builds have a very small timing windows in TvZ and TvP, you need to do damage with your high tech units (read: hellbats) before the tech/eco or both kick in for the opponent. Making even a small adjustment will have major impact on size of these timing windows.
Probably Terran could survive without such builds in TvP/TvZ but I enjoy the variety.
On June 11 2013 23:12 Skytt wrote: The only problem with the hellbat that I have is that it's a mineral dump unit that counters every other mineral dump really efficiently. That and the fact that it can be healed by medivacs.
I hope they don't change turbo boost too drastically, a longer cooldown would make it more valuable to hold onto rather than just keeping it off cooldown.
I think adjusting the speed boost is the way to go. I have been a long proponent of making the medivac control differently during the boost. Currently, the thing is more agile than a phoenix when boosted. If it didn't turn on a dime, the medivac couldn't thread the needle so easily between base defenses and would take extra hits from it got in range.
A longer cool down may also help out. I would like to see a cool down that makes it so the terran only gets one boost per drop.
They could also buff the other race's anti air. Take a look at blink and find a way to make it come earlier without opening up all ins(aka, not be able to blink up cliff). Give spore calls an anti air mini slow against mechanical. There are tons of options that could open up the game more, while keep medivacs awesome.
On June 11 2013 19:15 Ghanburighan wrote: Note that David Kim did not actually say that they will do anything. And I like this. I do not see a massive problem with hellbats, not even in TvT. This is because the days when Fantasy could hellbat drop all over the place are gone, and smart players know how to defend against them, it's just that it's difficult to do.
I like the fact that just dropping hellbats does nearly nothing when the defender pulls probes. It's only when someone like Innovation does it against a lesser opponent that they do massive damage. And that's what we want from harassment: a good skill-based scale of damage. In the end, TvT is currently incredibly technical with constant multi-harass and multi-defense. It's great and awe-inspiring to watch (sorry pro's if you don't like playing it).
As other's have said, TvX is harass-based, while ZvX and PvX are a lot more stale. Instead of removing the harass-based play, we should improve the harass-potential of the other races. Although, P still has unexplored harass-options which only Rain seems to utilize at the moment.
It doesnt matter that he did not say anything about doing anything ... because they dont have to do anything even if he said something.
The important part here is that the community says something ... quite a lot ... which should be a big warning sign to Browder and Kim that things arent as they should be.
The fact that the community complains about something says Nothing about real problems. This community is whiny as anything. Remember when HOTS came out and everyone and their mother bitched about ZvT being impossible, and that T will win every tournament. Well, Zerg ended up taking MLG, Dreamhack and the GSL, i.e., the early premier tournaments. T has won IEM (where no Korean Z showed up), WCS Europe (hello Mvp) and WCS 1 (hello Innovation). And the win rates at the top are very much decent.
I repeat, this community and this thread complains way too much. Look for facts, not public perception of affairs.
You sound very biased The tournament a zerg won (MLG) One Zerg of all zergs could compete versus the terrans, the rest of the zergs HAD ZERO CHANCE!
It was Life that could compete, and he did WIN, but damn did he fight like hell versus the terrans he met, jesus (hello life)
I repeat, One zerg was in top8 at mlg
In ro8 you have a perfect split of 3-3-2. Having a 4-3-1 split - although it may look dire - is one of the two closest things you can have to it.
So it is no reason to complain really. With that low amount of players it is a bad idea to jump on the "OMG IMBA" bandwagon.
Also, over the last 3 months zergs got much better at dealing with the 4M, which you seem to forget.
On June 11 2013 19:15 Ghanburighan wrote: Note that David Kim did not actually say that they will do anything. And I like this. I do not see a massive problem with hellbats, not even in TvT. This is because the days when Fantasy could hellbat drop all over the place are gone, and smart players know how to defend against them, it's just that it's difficult to do.
I like the fact that just dropping hellbats does nearly nothing when the defender pulls probes. It's only when someone like Innovation does it against a lesser opponent that they do massive damage. And that's what we want from harassment: a good skill-based scale of damage. In the end, TvT is currently incredibly technical with constant multi-harass and multi-defense. It's great and awe-inspiring to watch (sorry pro's if you don't like playing it).
As other's have said, TvX is harass-based, while ZvX and PvX are a lot more stale. Instead of removing the harass-based play, we should improve the harass-potential of the other races. Although, P still has unexplored harass-options which only Rain seems to utilize at the moment.
It doesnt matter that he did not say anything about doing anything ... because they dont have to do anything even if he said something.
The important part here is that the community says something ... quite a lot ... which should be a big warning sign to Browder and Kim that things arent as they should be.
The fact that the community complains about something says Nothing about real problems. This community is whiny as anything. Remember when HOTS came out and everyone and their mother bitched about ZvT being impossible, and that T will win every tournament. Well, Zerg ended up taking MLG, Dreamhack and the GSL, i.e., the early premier tournaments. T has won IEM (where no Korean Z showed up), WCS Europe (hello Mvp) and WCS 1 (hello Innovation). And the win rates at the top are very much decent.
I repeat, this community and this thread complains way too much. Look for facts, not public perception of affairs.
You sound very biased The tournament a zerg won (MLG) One Zerg of all zergs could compete versus the terrans, the rest of the zergs HAD ZERO CHANCE!
It was Life that could compete, and he did WIN, but damn did he fight like hell versus the terrans he met, jesus (hello life)
I repeat, One zerg was in top8 at mlg
And most of the other Zergs weren't as high calibre. It was like two Code S Zergs (Life and Stephano) against a bunch of Code S Terrans. And hey, there were some Protoss' around as well, but who cares, right. Anyways, what I mean to say is that the lineup basically meant that there was one clear tournament favorite (Life) and some toplevel other guys, which happened to be mostly Terrans. Admittedly, to get this kind of view you'd need to step back a kilometre from TL, and calmly consider the lineup instead of getting overhyped by ELEPHAAAAAAAANTTS, FLAAAAAASHHHHHHHHHH, TL FIGHTIIIIIING and whatever other nongamerelated stuff determines who is a favorite in the eyes of the (TL) community.
I wonder why the hellbat can be healed by the medivac? If that was not possible, they would die just a little faster... which might help a lot already.
On June 11 2013 16:54 Sissors wrote: [quote] So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want?
I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even?
I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 11 11 10 actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea optimal: 11 11 10 actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners optimal: 3 2 2 actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists optimal: 4 5 5 actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me.
I guess you dont like to watch games and are only interested in the results then? Personally I am more a "the way you get there is the most important bit" kind of guy and winning through mainly Hellbat drops is more boring than a long drawn out game with strategic positions held, threatened and overrun ... you know, games which require STRATEGY to win. Hellbats dont give that same level of excitement+ Show Spoiler +
and in a sense they are like premature ejaculation ... the game is over far too quickly
.
I watch the games and I'd like them to get better. Having this kind of stats however makes me think that "hey, let's nerf Terran" approach is not the way to go, as the results are way to close for that.
And every "solution" to this problem is essentially a terran nerf, whereas the results show that it would be unreasonable.
The results doesn't show anything of the sort. They don't in any way show that a small tweek to make early hellbat drops weaker would lower the terran winratios. Again, ZvP winratios where close to 50% in WoL and noone could ever claim that infestor BL didn't need nerfs.
And whatever blizzard decides the tweaks should be small, messing around to much is never a good thing
I disagree. Balance is based purely on numbers and game quality is based on everything else.
Fast tech into harassment builds have a very small timing windows in TvZ and TvP, you need to do damage with your high tech units (read: hellbats) before the tech/eco or both kick in for the opponent. Making even a small adjustment will have major impact on size of these timing windows.
Probably Terran could survive without such builds in TvP/TvZ but I enjoy the variety.
What a disgraceful thing to say.
I don't get it... so do you think that a game with 50% winrates for every race and equal distribution among top tournament participants/winners may be imbalanced? What the hell...
It may be dull / boring / coinflippy and it may be unwatchable. But none of these things affect balance. Balance is pure numbers.
They should just nerf Hellbat DROPS, for example they cant be healed or only 1 can be dropped whatever, but dont nerf the unit itself or it will become useless and mech even worse again...
On June 12 2013 00:13 HDRhineland wrote: I wonder why the hellbat can be healed by the medivac? If that was not possible, they would die just a little faster... which might help a lot already.
I think a lot of the problems with Hellbats is because of the sorry state of Mech in TvP. Even with Hellbats in their current state, Mech is far inferior to Bio play in TvP, and any buff to Mech will annihilate Zerg. In my opinion it boils down to poor unit design of Zealot and Immortals.
On June 12 2013 00:13 HDRhineland wrote: I wonder why the hellbat can be healed by the medivac? If that was not possible, they would die just a little faster... which might help a lot already.
I think a lot of the problems with Hellbats is because of the sorry state of Mech in TvP. Even with Hellbats in their current state, Mech is far inferior to Bio play in TvP, and any buff to Mech will annihilate Zerg. In my opinion it boils down to poor unit design of Zealot and Immortals.
Just give mech +damage to shields and it';ll be a huge improvement.
On June 12 2013 00:13 HDRhineland wrote: I wonder why the hellbat can be healed by the medivac? If that was not possible, they would die just a little faster... which might help a lot already.
I think a lot of the problems with Hellbats is because of the sorry state of Mech in TvP. Even with Hellbats in their current state, Mech is far inferior to Bio play in TvP, and any buff to Mech will annihilate Zerg. In my opinion it boils down to poor unit design of Zealot and Immortals.
Mech doesnt only have problems in TvP, because Siege Tanks are outmaneuvered easily by anything Zerg can muster AND they dont really have anything good against air units themselves, so they need to build large numbers of Vikings too. The Hellbat is a "brute force" attempt to fix mech, but it doesnt really work that well, because the bad Siege Tank is still really bad and you need to have all of them in one army to even have a chance of surviving while opening up your bases for run-bys. You cant really siege anything on the Zerg half of the map because there is no way of building stuff on creep and it takes rather long to recede after you killed the tumors. To really go mech against Zerg you also need turret support ...
Just remove the ability to make hellbats from the factory and force people to take servo-motor whatever. Then add infernal pre-igniter. As a bonus, let it add a bit of damage to tanks in the form of additional splash against protoss or something.
On June 12 2013 00:34 Aquila- wrote: They should just nerf Hellbat DROPS, for example they cant be healed or only 1 can be dropped whatever, but dont nerf the unit itself or it will become useless and mech even worse again...
This, X 1000. Don't nerf the damage, but nerf the drops (because that's the only problem atm): - 5 cargo space (= 1 hellbat / medivac = bye bye drops) - transformation upgrade required to make hellbats (= much later hellbats, so much later drops)
A damage nerf would make them not strong enough in armies (imo).
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want?
I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even?
I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 11 11 10 actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea optimal: 11 11 10 actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners optimal: 3 2 2 actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists optimal: 4 5 5 actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me.
I guess you dont like to watch games and are only interested in the results then? Personally I am more a "the way you get there is the most important bit" kind of guy and winning through mainly Hellbat drops is more boring than a long drawn out game with strategic positions held, threatened and overrun ... you know, games which require STRATEGY to win. Hellbats dont give that same level of excitement+ Show Spoiler +
and in a sense they are like premature ejaculation ... the game is over far too quickly
.
I watch the games and I'd like them to get better. Having this kind of stats however makes me think that "hey, let's nerf Terran" approach is not the way to go, as the results are way to close for that.
And every "solution" to this problem is essentially a terran nerf, whereas the results show that it would be unreasonable.
The results doesn't show anything of the sort. They don't in any way show that a small tweek to make early hellbat drops weaker would lower the terran winratios. Again, ZvP winratios where close to 50% in WoL and noone could ever claim that infestor BL didn't need nerfs.
And whatever blizzard decides the tweaks should be small, messing around to much is never a good thing
I disagree. Balance is based purely on numbers and game quality is based on everything else.
Fast tech into harassment builds have a very small timing windows in TvZ and TvP, you need to do damage with your high tech units (read: hellbats) before the tech/eco or both kick in for the opponent. Making even a small adjustment will have major impact on size of these timing windows.
Probably Terran could survive without such builds in TvP/TvZ but I enjoy the variety.
What a disgraceful thing to say.
I don't get it... so do you think that a game with 50% winrates for every race and equal distribution among top tournament participants/winners may be imbalanced? What the hell...
It may be dull / boring / coinflippy and it may be unwatchable. But none of these things affect balance. Balance is pure numbers.
Anyone who's done a little math knows that leaving things to chance always more or less ends up with a 50/50 situation. Try flipping a coin constantly during two straight hours, you'll end up with a surprisingly close number of heads and tails.
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want?
I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even?
I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 11 11 10 actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea optimal: 11 11 10 actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners optimal: 3 2 2 actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists optimal: 4 5 5 actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me.
I guess you dont like to watch games and are only interested in the results then? Personally I am more a "the way you get there is the most important bit" kind of guy and winning through mainly Hellbat drops is more boring than a long drawn out game with strategic positions held, threatened and overrun ... you know, games which require STRATEGY to win. Hellbats dont give that same level of excitement+ Show Spoiler +
and in a sense they are like premature ejaculation ... the game is over far too quickly
.
I watch the games and I'd like them to get better. Having this kind of stats however makes me think that "hey, let's nerf Terran" approach is not the way to go, as the results are way to close for that.
And every "solution" to this problem is essentially a terran nerf, whereas the results show that it would be unreasonable.
The results doesn't show anything of the sort. They don't in any way show that a small tweek to make early hellbat drops weaker would lower the terran winratios. Again, ZvP winratios where close to 50% in WoL and noone could ever claim that infestor BL didn't need nerfs.
And whatever blizzard decides the tweaks should be small, messing around to much is never a good thing
I disagree. Balance is based purely on numbers and game quality is based on everything else.
Fast tech into harassment builds have a very small timing windows in TvZ and TvP, you need to do damage with your high tech units (read: hellbats) before the tech/eco or both kick in for the opponent. Making even a small adjustment will have major impact on size of these timing windows.
Probably Terran could survive without such builds in TvP/TvZ but I enjoy the variety.
What a disgraceful thing to say.
I don't get it... so do you think that a game with 50% winrates for every race and equal distribution among top tournament participants/winners may be imbalanced? What the hell...
It may be dull / boring / coinflippy and it may be unwatchable. But none of these things affect balance. Balance is pure numbers.
Anyone who's done a little math knows that leaving things to chance always more or less ends up with a 50/50 situation. Try flipping a coin constantly during two straight hours, you'll end up with a surprisingly close number of heads and tails.
yeah, that's why we call coinflipping a balanced game (50:50). But leaving everything to chance does not lead to balanced games usually. Try this game: roll a die, by 1 you win, by 2-6 you lose. We left it to chance. It's not balanced.
On June 11 2013 10:54 Gamegene wrote: make them require transformation servos DK.
I also think the Hellbat is closely related to the medivac boost... The medivac boost, just like the transformation servos, should be a mandatory research for Terran players (like me). We should have to pay 50m and 50g for boosts in armory, for example, and we should have to pay 150m 150g to make our hellions hellbats. Currently, there is no reason to make blue flame hellions anymore.
So you wanna boost in with 2 hellbats? Think again, and prepare. It also gives the opportunity for the opponent to scout talking techs.
On June 11 2013 10:52 SoOJuuu wrote: took them long enough to figuire it out. sigh better late then never.
I think it's fine. It's always good to let a metagame settle and see if the community can solve its own issues. Better than having a company patch the game at such a reactionary pace that it takes the innovation out of its players.
Does that mean we should bring back BL/Infestor and just let players work it out? :O
who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want?
I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even?
I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 11 11 10 actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea optimal: 11 11 10 actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners optimal: 3 2 2 actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists optimal: 4 5 5 actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me.
I guess you dont like to watch games and are only interested in the results then? Personally I am more a "the way you get there is the most important bit" kind of guy and winning through mainly Hellbat drops is more boring than a long drawn out game with strategic positions held, threatened and overrun ... you know, games which require STRATEGY to win. Hellbats dont give that same level of excitement+ Show Spoiler +
and in a sense they are like premature ejaculation ... the game is over far too quickly
.
I watch the games and I'd like them to get better. Having this kind of stats however makes me think that "hey, let's nerf Terran" approach is not the way to go, as the results are way to close for that.
And every "solution" to this problem is essentially a terran nerf, whereas the results show that it would be unreasonable.
The results doesn't show anything of the sort. They don't in any way show that a small tweek to make early hellbat drops weaker would lower the terran winratios. Again, ZvP winratios where close to 50% in WoL and noone could ever claim that infestor BL didn't need nerfs.
And whatever blizzard decides the tweaks should be small, messing around to much is never a good thing
I disagree. Balance is based purely on numbers and game quality is based on everything else.
Fast tech into harassment builds have a very small timing windows in TvZ and TvP, you need to do damage with your high tech units (read: hellbats) before the tech/eco or both kick in for the opponent. Making even a small adjustment will have major impact on size of these timing windows.
Probably Terran could survive without such builds in TvP/TvZ but I enjoy the variety.
What a disgraceful thing to say.
I don't get it... so do you think that a game with 50% winrates for every race and equal distribution among top tournament participants/winners may be imbalanced? What the hell...
It may be dull / boring / coinflippy and it may be unwatchable. But none of these things affect balance. Balance is pure numbers.
Anyone who's done a little math knows that leaving things to chance always more or less ends up with a 50/50 situation. Try flipping a coin constantly during two straight hours, you'll end up with a surprisingly close number of heads and tails.
yeah, that's why we call coinflipping a balanced game (50:50). But leaving everything to chance does not lead to balanced games usually. Try this game: roll a die, by 1 you win, by 2-6 you lose. We left it to chance. It's not balanced.
What's your point?
Read the entire conversation, I was trying to say that a 50/50 winrate doesn't necessarily prove balance, and that balance shouldn't be defined by such a thing. SC2 is very volatile and as a consequence enjoys very balanced-looking winrates, but it still has huge design flaws and relies a lot on luck, sometimes more than it relies on skill. BW wasn't volatile at all and had, at some points, some horrid looking winrates (below 30%), it's still widely is considered to be the most balanced RTS game that's ever existed.
Winrates aren't balance. Design, gameplay elegance and skill-rewarding mechanics are.
On June 11 2013 10:52 SoOJuuu wrote: took them long enough to figuire it out. sigh better late then never.
I think it's fine. It's always good to let a metagame settle and see if the community can solve its own issues. Better than having a company patch the game at such a reactionary pace that it takes the innovation out of its players.
Does that mean we should bring back BL/Infestor and just let players work it out? :O
Please say it's so.
I think we let players "work out" Bl/Infestor for the better part of a year to no avail.
I just dont understand people that don't get why the medivac can heal the hellbat. The reason is because if they can't, then there is only storms and colossi left to kill them in a timely fashion, both of which are fairly weak against tanks. Hellbats would walk over protoss armies without the bio tag. It's especially hilarious when protoss players want to buff the hellbat yet think they're nerfing it.
About hellbat drops, well I still think this is being blown out of proportions. Terran players that want to defend hellbats rather than going offensive hellbats themselves can quite easily do that. Infact it's quite easy to scout it coming and prevent the hellbats from droppping in the mineral line. So yeah, while I thought initially hellbat drops were a problem in TvT I learned to actually deal with them. A positive thing too is that 1 base play can be countered quite similarly, with vikings and WMs(admittedly that leaves Luci's thor opening still strong).
For TvP and TvZ I still don't understand why people are complaining. Both is mech a lot weaker than bio in the MUs, but both races also have quite decent defense against them. Also hellbat drops can be quite dangerous and open yourself up to allins, since non-hellbat units willl be late.
I'd certainly hope if they are going to be touching the unit, they'd focus more on keeping it away from bio play, rather than nerfing it straight up.
On June 11 2013 13:05 Waxangel wrote: fix the medivac, not the hellbat
harassment has become so easy it's no longer impressive
I'm with Wax on this.
Compared against the WoL Blue Flame Hellion drops, the hellbat threat pretty much lies in the fact that medivac boost allows high speed pick up and re-drop of hellbats to the escaping scv clusters, even if scvs are pulled and split (which is the proper response to a unit as slow as the hellbat, but with the current availability of boost technology, the hellbat's natural weakness of slow speed is nullified), where as in WoL, because of the speed nerfs to medivacs early in WoL, hellion drops relied on the hellion's own ground speed for chasing down workers, and thus could be defended passively by simcity or using other units to block. The power of the re-drop within the main on selective targets is so powerful that soft-counters like marauders and tanks die because of the quick surrounds made available by medivac boosts. the fact that hellbats receive healing with their bio tag is only icing on the problem.
Perhaps disable the medivac boost ability if there are any mechanical units in the medivac? It would but more risk on the attacker, because you couldn't always hot-pickup out of the drop zone. However a noticeable con to this solution is that it endangers a lot of current battlefield tactics that revolve around hellbat drops on the battlefront (ie boosting to drop within or behind a cluster of bio units in all Terran matchups). Such drops would theoretically still be possible but would be significantly more vulnerable to anti-air units like marines, hydras, and stalkers... But then perhaps it would encourage more direct pushes with hellbats that would actually make use of it's bio tag.
I think that a pre-igniter change will help, but won't solve the core problem.
It was impressive in WoL because it got to the point of being almost impossible. Harassment isn't meant to be impressive. It's meant to be a viable tactic. Multi pronged harassment while simultaneously winning central engagements due to control/positioning is impressive. Defending said harassment while winning central engagements is impressive.
I dunno, I play Terran and I really like TvT in HotS. WoL seemed to be all about the slow tank push, I find the new game to be more exciting and dynamic. Hellbat drops are annoying, but by the time it comes you should have SOMETHING to deal with it. Hellions can kit the hellbats all day, and you SHOULD have a viking out to deny the medivac...if you dont have a viking then you have a banshee that can kill hellbats, or a medivac to load up to go backstab the other guy, or some marines and marauders
I think the 4 hellion drop is superior to the hellbat drop anyways, the hellions are faster and you can let them in on the edge of the base. They can catch up to the scvs when they try and run. The hellion drop comes earlier as well. Plus your hellions are useful for defending against hellbats in general, and most anti hellbat static D focuses on preventing the medi from lingering near the mineral line, so by dropping on the edge and running in you totally neutralize their turrets.
On June 11 2013 10:52 SoOJuuu wrote: took them long enough to figuire it out. sigh better late then never.
I think it's fine. It's always good to let a metagame settle and see if the community can solve its own issues. Better than having a company patch the game at such a reactionary pace that it takes the innovation out of its players.
Does that mean we should bring back BL/Infestor and just let players work it out? :O
Please say it's so.
This does not work out this way. Blizzard did not like the ghost-based late-game TvZ so they nerfed ghosts - even thou TvZ was fine in terms of numbers. They did it again with the queen + ov patch and nerfed the Terran into oblivion (last terran Code S victory in May 2012).
This means we do not nerf a balanced race unless we want BL/festor back. Or festor/ultra, or ultra/viper or whatever composition may evolve from lack of successful harass.
I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 11 11 10 actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea optimal: 11 11 10 actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners optimal: 3 2 2 actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists optimal: 4 5 5 actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me.
I guess you dont like to watch games and are only interested in the results then? Personally I am more a "the way you get there is the most important bit" kind of guy and winning through mainly Hellbat drops is more boring than a long drawn out game with strategic positions held, threatened and overrun ... you know, games which require STRATEGY to win. Hellbats dont give that same level of excitement+ Show Spoiler +
and in a sense they are like premature ejaculation ... the game is over far too quickly
.
I watch the games and I'd like them to get better. Having this kind of stats however makes me think that "hey, let's nerf Terran" approach is not the way to go, as the results are way to close for that.
And every "solution" to this problem is essentially a terran nerf, whereas the results show that it would be unreasonable.
The results doesn't show anything of the sort. They don't in any way show that a small tweek to make early hellbat drops weaker would lower the terran winratios. Again, ZvP winratios where close to 50% in WoL and noone could ever claim that infestor BL didn't need nerfs.
And whatever blizzard decides the tweaks should be small, messing around to much is never a good thing
I disagree. Balance is based purely on numbers and game quality is based on everything else.
Fast tech into harassment builds have a very small timing windows in TvZ and TvP, you need to do damage with your high tech units (read: hellbats) before the tech/eco or both kick in for the opponent. Making even a small adjustment will have major impact on size of these timing windows.
Probably Terran could survive without such builds in TvP/TvZ but I enjoy the variety.
What a disgraceful thing to say.
I don't get it... so do you think that a game with 50% winrates for every race and equal distribution among top tournament participants/winners may be imbalanced? What the hell...
It may be dull / boring / coinflippy and it may be unwatchable. But none of these things affect balance. Balance is pure numbers.
Anyone who's done a little math knows that leaving things to chance always more or less ends up with a 50/50 situation. Try flipping a coin constantly during two straight hours, you'll end up with a surprisingly close number of heads and tails.
yeah, that's why we call coinflipping a balanced game (50:50). But leaving everything to chance does not lead to balanced games usually. Try this game: roll a die, by 1 you win, by 2-6 you lose. We left it to chance. It's not balanced.
What's your point?
Read the entire conversation, I was trying to say that a 50/50 winrate doesn't necessarily prove balance, and that balance shouldn't be defined by such a thing. SC2 is very volatile and as a consequence enjoys very balanced-looking winrates, but it still has huge design flaws and relies a lot on luck, sometimes more than it relies on skill. BW wasn't volatile at all and had, at some points, some horrid looking winrates (below 30%), it's still widely is considered to be the most balanced RTS game that's ever existed.
Winrates aren't balance. Design, gameplay elegance and skill-rewarding mechanics are.
No, that's not balance. Balance is balance. Design is design. That's why we distinguish those terms to begin with. 50:50 is balanced
Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough...
On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote: Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough...
Like SCVs, that are made out of the CC and are clearly a robot miner that can be healed and repaired at the same time.
I have never lost to hellbat drops ever, sure it's harder in TvT but there is absolutley no problem to defend it if you prepare, late game zerg and protoss can easily deal with hellbats, terran who lack solid static defence need senstor towers and strategically placed upgraded turrets to deal with it, which actually isn't hard to set up.
On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote: Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough...
How is a guy in a welding suit both biological and mechanical then? maybe you want to tell me?
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but I've got a decent idea to help fix the situation.
1. Caduceus reactor- make this a required upgrade to allow the medivacs to heal hellbats. It only makes sense to me that an upgrade be required to heal a unit that is spawned from a factory. This would help in defending those early drops that somehow beat anything except a bunker in the mineral line with turrets for support.
2. Modify the burst damage so that the blue-flame upgrade allows for the bonus damage. Meaning, it would be more difficult to singe mineral lines early in the game.
On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote: Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough...
How is a guy in a welding suit both biological and mechanical then? maybe you want to tell me?
By that logic, the Thor is just a guy in a really big welding suit.
Hey! Maybe they'll make Thors Biological in the next patch
On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote: Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough...
Easy to explain. The hellion has biological interior (the driver kind of connects himself to the car). The transformation turns parts of them to the outside. The medivac can heal those parts.
On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote: Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough...
Easy to explain. The hellion has biological interior (the driver kind of connects himself to the car). The transformation turns parts of them to the outside. The medivac can heal those parts.
Yet it becomes more durable. So we can conclude that Hellions have armor that's weaker then human flesh. Buff hellions
On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote: Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough...
Easy to explain. The hellion has biological interior (the driver kind of connects himself to the car). The transformation turns parts of them to the outside. The medivac can heal those parts.
Forget all that shit. WHY DO MUTALISK FLY THEIR WINGS IN SPACE?
All your demands for logic in this game a rendered null.
On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote: Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough...
Easy to explain. The hellion has biological interior (the driver kind of connects himself to the car). The transformation turns parts of them to the outside. The medivac can heal those parts.
Yet it becomes more durable. So we can conclude that Hellions have armor that's weaker then human flesh. Buff hellions
Because it is in a less volatile form? You can't kill a hellbat by scratching a wheel or breaking an axle. And due to not even trying to move fast it can concentrate its more durable parts to serve as armor, instead of trying to be as aeordynamical as possible.
On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote: Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough...
Easy to explain. The hellion has biological interior (the driver kind of connects himself to the car). The transformation turns parts of them to the outside. The medivac can heal those parts.
Forget all that shit. WHY DO MUTALISK FLY THEIR WINGS IN SPACE?
All your demands for logic in this game a rendered null.
because they are stupid and don't understand that they could fly without doing so
Very good change. The cost of Hellbat drop is almost irrelevant when compared when how early and much damage it can do. See what Innovation did to Alive in game 3. Not to mention about the bm mule.
It's not just about balance, it's that every TvT now starts with hellbat drops, because it's easy to execute, not very punishable and it leads to mech terran, which is better than bio, especially if you was succesfull with your drops early game.
On June 12 2013 02:53 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: I don't understand why people DON'T build AA defences at their borders past 10min or when they make a push to fend off possible Hellbat drops!
It's not a game design problem, it's a player problem.
The earliest hellbat drop I remember is at the 7:30min mark.
you realize that Terran doesn't care if they lose the drop as long as it does provide the neccessary damage, which is one of the drops problem. Look at SoS vs. Innovation Game 1 and say that again.
No strategy in SC2 should be risk free and have some drawback when it miserably. Else it will makes for very bad gaming experiance.
On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote: Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough...
How much sense does it make for dudes in huge power armor to get "healed" anyway? Wouldn't the "healing" make more sense if it just repaired the armor?
On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote: Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough...
How is a guy in a welding suit both biological and mechanical then? maybe you want to tell me?
By that logic, the Thor is just a guy in a really big welding suit.
Hey! Maybe they'll make Thors Biological in the next patch
And marauders should be mechanical by that definition... You make no sense.
FYI: May I remind everyone that in WoL, BIO-FU*KING-STEEL WAS INVENTED, so by LORE, medivacs are be able to heal mechanical units already!
On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote: Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough...
How much sense does it make for dudes in huge power armor to get "healed" anyway? Wouldn't the "healing" make more sense if it just repaired the armor?
Technically, isn't a medivac beam just a bunch of nanobots? If they can be programmed to heal wounds they can probably be programmed to repair armor
On June 11 2013 17:33 Rabiator wrote: [quote] I guess you dont like to watch games and are only interested in the results then? Personally I am more a "the way you get there is the most important bit" kind of guy and winning through mainly Hellbat drops is more boring than a long drawn out game with strategic positions held, threatened and overrun ... you know, games which require STRATEGY to win. Hellbats dont give that same level of excitement+ Show Spoiler +
and in a sense they are like premature ejaculation ... the game is over far too quickly
.
I watch the games and I'd like them to get better. Having this kind of stats however makes me think that "hey, let's nerf Terran" approach is not the way to go, as the results are way to close for that.
And every "solution" to this problem is essentially a terran nerf, whereas the results show that it would be unreasonable.
The results doesn't show anything of the sort. They don't in any way show that a small tweek to make early hellbat drops weaker would lower the terran winratios. Again, ZvP winratios where close to 50% in WoL and noone could ever claim that infestor BL didn't need nerfs.
And whatever blizzard decides the tweaks should be small, messing around to much is never a good thing
I disagree. Balance is based purely on numbers and game quality is based on everything else.
Fast tech into harassment builds have a very small timing windows in TvZ and TvP, you need to do damage with your high tech units (read: hellbats) before the tech/eco or both kick in for the opponent. Making even a small adjustment will have major impact on size of these timing windows.
Probably Terran could survive without such builds in TvP/TvZ but I enjoy the variety.
What a disgraceful thing to say.
I don't get it... so do you think that a game with 50% winrates for every race and equal distribution among top tournament participants/winners may be imbalanced? What the hell...
It may be dull / boring / coinflippy and it may be unwatchable. But none of these things affect balance. Balance is pure numbers.
Anyone who's done a little math knows that leaving things to chance always more or less ends up with a 50/50 situation. Try flipping a coin constantly during two straight hours, you'll end up with a surprisingly close number of heads and tails.
yeah, that's why we call coinflipping a balanced game (50:50). But leaving everything to chance does not lead to balanced games usually. Try this game: roll a die, by 1 you win, by 2-6 you lose. We left it to chance. It's not balanced.
What's your point?
Read the entire conversation, I was trying to say that a 50/50 winrate doesn't necessarily prove balance, and that balance shouldn't be defined by such a thing. SC2 is very volatile and as a consequence enjoys very balanced-looking winrates, but it still has huge design flaws and relies a lot on luck, sometimes more than it relies on skill. BW wasn't volatile at all and had, at some points, some horrid looking winrates (below 30%), it's still widely is considered to be the most balanced RTS game that's ever existed.
Winrates aren't balance. Design, gameplay elegance and skill-rewarding mechanics are.
No, that's not balance. Balance is balance. Design is design. That's why we distinguish those terms to begin with. 50:50 is balanced
50:50 just mean that out of 100 hundred games both race got 50 wins. That does not say anything about which players who played against eachother or what type of strategy that was used. Even the skill of the players are really disambigious. 50:50 is really just a number with weak correlation to balance. Since balance has to be defined as when two equally skilled players meet then they have same chance of winning ,e.i., 50:50. With ladder two equally skilled player will rarely meet eachother even at the end of the season considering how much time both has spent playing so the overall mmr will be shifted where the one with more time spent more time playing will have a more accurate mmr then the others. Even in GSL and proleague there is hard to define skill of the players. Some is better then other, players like innovation, soulkey, sOs will be bound for a good placement purely because of their skill. But players like DonRaeGU, Teaja, Maru are by all means good but not someones I would see as GSL champions. So if Soulkey only meet terrans with various "skill" in a tournament and goes through all then that would give terran a pretty shitty winratio against zerg. But is it because Soulkey plays zerg or is it because he is soulkey and cut through his opponent like butter that been in the sun to long? The clear answer must be that he is that skilled. Just as an example as easily been Innovation cutting through some zergs. This clearly implies that winratio is not a solid correlation with balance since it does not take into account the skill parameter.
With that said the win ratio can be used as an indicator but even that does not say much what the problem is or if it is a problem. Maybe there is some strategy aspects that does not been figured out or such that is the core problem and not a balance factor.
Or is TvT fine since I promise you that terran will win 50:50 in that match-up. ------------------------------------ On topic I really like the hellbat drop plays but I think the dropper has a significant upperhand over the defender. Since the booster give such mobility makes it harder for the defender.
On June 12 2013 02:53 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: I don't understand why people DON'T build AA defences at their borders past 10min or when they make a push to fend off possible Hellbat drops!
It's not a game design problem, it's a player problem.
The earliest hellbat drop I remember is at the 7:30min mark.
you realize that Terran doesn't care if they lose the drop as long as it does provide the neccessary damage, which is one of the drops problem. Look at SoS vs. Innovation Game 1 and say that again.
No strategy in SC2 should be risk free and have some drawback when it miserably. Else it will makes for very bad gaming experiance.
Then IMHO, Blizzard should BUFF the AA not nerf the hellbat. Straight up combat-wise, hellbats are pretty underwhelming with their slow movement and bulky hull size of 4.
On June 12 2013 02:53 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: I don't understand why people DON'T build AA defences at their borders past 10min or when they make a push to fend off possible Hellbat drops!
It's not a game design problem, it's a player problem.
The earliest hellbat drop I remember is at the 7:30min mark.
you realize that Terran doesn't care if they lose the drop as long as it does provide the neccessary damage, which is one of the drops problem. Look at SoS vs. Innovation Game 1 and say that again.
No strategy in SC2 should be risk free and have some drawback when it miserably. Else it will makes for very bad gaming experiance.
He used zealots to defend...
That's like saying upgraded baneling drops need to be nerfed because overlords only cost 100m and banelings move too fast to kite.
I dunno bout you guys, but ive found that marines can stop helion drops as long as you split them properly when engaging...i dont ever do hellbat drops myself but i dont find them very hard to hold off anyway.
If it's executed properly and depending on if your opponent is fast expanding it's insanely fast...
I'm no pro but I am definitely mid level(High diamond) and some guys I play that execute it properly rape me everytime... marines get roasted and so do the scvs it's insanely hard... you can get a few mines out at your mineral line but the hellbat has incredible armor and top that with the health regeneration from the medivac it's almost impossible to hold.
On June 12 2013 02:25 ImperialFist wrote: I have never lost to hellbat drops ever, sure it's harder in TvT but there is absolutley no problem to defend it if you prepare, late game zerg and protoss can easily deal with hellbats, terran who lack solid static defence need senstor towers and strategically placed upgraded turrets to deal with it, which actually isn't hard to set up.
It's the efficiency of the hellbat + the medivac boost that is the problem. Because the medivac can fly by and take 1-2 less shots of a single base defense due to the boost and still be able to drop the hellbat on a mineral, is kind of crazy. Then couple that with the burst damage. You don't automatically lose to a hellbat drop, they just do their damage no matter what. They force base defenses early in the game hurting economy, force loss of mining time, and have the ability to destroy worker lines in a couple of seconds.
You can prepare all you want, but it takes one solid hellbat drop to put a player significantly behind in economy while terran does not risk falling far behind doing the drop. You can react faster to the other drops and they don't destroy mineral lines in 1-2 volleys.
Hellbat drops compared to other types of drops cost very little to Terran players (all include medivac cost):
2 hellbat drop 300 minerals 100 gas 8 marine drop 500 minerals 100 gas 4 marine 2 widowmine 450 minerals 150 gas 4 marine 2 marauder 500 minerals 150 gas 4 marauder 500 minerals 150 gas 4 hellions 500 minerals 100 gas
On June 12 2013 01:52 BisuDagger wrote: Here's a new idea.
Hellbats start off with single target damage but after an upgrade, (with or without armory debatable) then it can have splash damage again.
Did my idea make to much sense to be commented on because it clearly solves the issue without involving the Pre igniter upgrade. And adding a new upgrade to the tech lab is fine because siege mode was removed from the list. Using the Pre igniter upgrade to balance damage still benefits terran as now they also have blue flame hellions on the field, where as a separate makes choosing a tech path more involved.
On June 12 2013 03:05 stratmatt wrote: I dunno bout you guys, but ive found that marines can stop helion drops as long as you split them properly when engaging...i dont ever do hellbat drops myself but i dont find them very hard to hold off anyway.
I don't find it that hard to hold off as long as I can dodge the initial burst dmg. I think that is the main issue, and the pre-ignighter will fix the chance of Hellbats ending a game very early on.
After the early game, if you lose to Hellbat drops its completely your fault. Kind of like not catching the banling/storm drop.
However as a Terran I still find it a little silly that Hellbats have so much HP. I play both Terran and Zerg. Even though at a point it gets hard to get into the Zerg base with a Hellbat Drop. I also know that once your in, Zerg has to really commit to getting you out of there.
On June 12 2013 03:00 Elldar wrote: 50:50 just mean that out of 100 hundred games both race got 50 wins. That does not say anything about which players who played against eachother or what type of strategy that was used. Even the skill of the players are really disambigious. 50:50 is really just a number with weak correlation to balance. Since balance has to be defined as when two equally skilled players meet then they have same chance of winning ,e.i., 50:50. With ladder two equally skilled player will rarely meet eachother even at the end of the season considering how much time both has spent playing so the overall mmr will be shifted where the one with more time spent more time playing will have a more accurate mmr then the others.
There is one skill that counts in starcraft - winning. Therefore balancing the number around number of victories for each race at the very top level seems solid to me.
Otherwise you would need a set of judges watching every game and giving each player points for their skillful actions. This is pushing SC2 towards figure ice-skating.
If you are not playing to win but to display your figure ice-skating, pardon me, starcraft 2 gosu skills then do not talk about the balance. Yesterday I played viking only vs elite zerg AI and I won. I feel that if took way more skill than doing so with mech or 4M. Now should I play viking-only TvZ on ladder and claim other races imba every time I lose? I don't think so.
The player pool and number of premier tournaments/year is large enough to make the stats matter. Winning is the only skill that must be taken into consideration when talking about balance.
The metagame, compositions, entertainment value, "gosu" skill, macrocraft, NR15 and wellcome to hellbats is something else. Maybe they should be addressed sooner or later but they are not balance.
well all m going to say is that terran drop play (essential to the race) is way to easy to execute full stop. As a zerg i caught the drop coming in, rallied most of my army to my min main/nat and 3rd min lines and watched as he blind dropped the units, of course it failed due to my scout BUT this carried on all game, marines are no problem, its the hellbats which totally runi my economy while they can cc up mule up and still build workers nonstop and mass turtle. If i want to bust that i have to make sure it works and ill lose my oneshot punch banes . . .and this is the issue, more hellbats dropped, more marines moving in around all the drones have to waste on stat defense . . i cant re make drones as he is still producing, still rallying and still sending in super efficient waves of armies. this is the whole face of this when the game gets out of control and from streams i watch and my own games its hopeless to come back if this non stop aggression continues. quite simply when the hellbats start they do far FAR too much damage as a harrass strat, as what the good terrans do is drop, roast, pick up and then drop on the fleeing drones, more roast, lose the medivac at this time but who givesa a fuck about the cost of 2 meds and 4 hellbats, he would have got a good 3rd of my drone count if i am the least little bit sloppy, all through shift click drop. Instant (now force me to all in)results
all zergs need is one spore and one spine. All toss needs is one cannon or photon overcharge. All Terran needs is a bunker and missile turret. I dont see the big deal people just need to be good at the game and learn how to deal with them. people should be nerfing toss, make them have skill to play.
I watch the games and I'd like them to get better. Having this kind of stats however makes me think that "hey, let's nerf Terran" approach is not the way to go, as the results are way to close for that.
And every "solution" to this problem is essentially a terran nerf, whereas the results show that it would be unreasonable.
The results doesn't show anything of the sort. They don't in any way show that a small tweek to make early hellbat drops weaker would lower the terran winratios. Again, ZvP winratios where close to 50% in WoL and noone could ever claim that infestor BL didn't need nerfs.
And whatever blizzard decides the tweaks should be small, messing around to much is never a good thing
I disagree. Balance is based purely on numbers and game quality is based on everything else.
Fast tech into harassment builds have a very small timing windows in TvZ and TvP, you need to do damage with your high tech units (read: hellbats) before the tech/eco or both kick in for the opponent. Making even a small adjustment will have major impact on size of these timing windows.
Probably Terran could survive without such builds in TvP/TvZ but I enjoy the variety.
What a disgraceful thing to say.
I don't get it... so do you think that a game with 50% winrates for every race and equal distribution among top tournament participants/winners may be imbalanced? What the hell...
It may be dull / boring / coinflippy and it may be unwatchable. But none of these things affect balance. Balance is pure numbers.
Anyone who's done a little math knows that leaving things to chance always more or less ends up with a 50/50 situation. Try flipping a coin constantly during two straight hours, you'll end up with a surprisingly close number of heads and tails.
yeah, that's why we call coinflipping a balanced game (50:50). But leaving everything to chance does not lead to balanced games usually. Try this game: roll a die, by 1 you win, by 2-6 you lose. We left it to chance. It's not balanced.
What's your point?
Read the entire conversation, I was trying to say that a 50/50 winrate doesn't necessarily prove balance, and that balance shouldn't be defined by such a thing. SC2 is very volatile and as a consequence enjoys very balanced-looking winrates, but it still has huge design flaws and relies a lot on luck, sometimes more than it relies on skill. BW wasn't volatile at all and had, at some points, some horrid looking winrates (below 30%), it's still widely is considered to be the most balanced RTS game that's ever existed.
Winrates aren't balance. Design, gameplay elegance and skill-rewarding mechanics are.
No, that's not balance. Balance is balance. Design is design. That's why we distinguish those terms to begin with. 50:50 is balanced
50:50 just mean that out of 100 hundred games both race got 50 wins. That does not say anything about which players who played against eachother or what type of strategy that was used. Even the skill of the players are really disambigious. 50:50 is really just a number with weak correlation to balance. Since balance has to be defined as when two equally skilled players meet then they have same chance of winning ,e.i., 50:50. With ladder two equally skilled player will rarely meet eachother even at the end of the season considering how much time both has spent playing so the overall mmr will be shifted where the one with more time spent more time playing will have a more accurate mmr then the others. Even in GSL and proleague there is hard to define skill of the players. Some is better then other, players like innovation, soulkey, sOs will be bound for a good placement purely because of their skill. But players like DonRaeGU, Teaja, Maru are by all means good but not someones I would see as GSL champions. So if Soulkey only meet terrans with various "skill" in a tournament and goes through all then that would give terran a pretty shitty winratio against zerg. But is it because Soulkey plays zerg or is it because he is soulkey and cut through his opponent like butter that been in the sun to long? The clear answer must be that he is that skilled. Just as an example as easily been Innovation cutting through some zergs. This clearly implies that winratio is not a solid correlation with balance since it does not take into account the skill parameter.
With that said the win ratio can be used as an indicator but even that does not say much what the problem is or if it is a problem. Maybe there is some strategy aspects that does not been figured out or such that is the core problem and not a balance factor.
Or is TvT fine since I promise you that terran will win 50:50 in that match-up. ------------------------------------ On topic I really like the hellbat drop plays but I think the dropper has a significant upperhand over the defender. Since the booster give such mobility makes it harder for the defender.
Yeah, that's why we watch the winrates at the highest level. Because then 50:50 means that the best players of race X wins 50 of 100 games against the best players of race Y. But yeah, we can't determine whether the best of race X are actually way worse than the best of race Y - which starts by defining "skill" in a game where various situations/races etc. require different kinds of skills... But you are probably right, time to nerf T/P to the ground It just happens so that the top 10.000 Zerg players are so vastly better than their Terran/Protoss counterparts and this balances out with Zerg being completly underpowered... lol
And yeah, TvT is fine balancewise. But the viewing experience is pretty bad a lot of times.
On June 12 2013 03:40 blastyblast21 wrote: all zergs need is one spore and one spine. All toss needs is one cannon or photon overcharge. All Terran needs is a bunker and missile turret. I dont see the big deal people just need to be good at the game and learn how to deal with them. people should be nerfing toss, make them have skill to play.
And you tell that to the pros, who are better than 99% of the player base and still they can't defend against every hellbat drop even when they see it coming.
yes zerg do need to make a spine and a spore . . .down 2 drones . . .terran turret, and bunker . . hmm can salvage one of these and the mule is instant call down and will mine 275 over its life, zerg has to remake drones wait . . .still only 5 mins per trip. Toss cannon, ok decent spend, but wait chrono out those probes sucka . . oh wait im zerg some mad push is coming make more units . . terran and toss simply keep making . . .oh and back on topic . . .they are dropping in 2 places at once . . .zerg race weakest pound for pound, have to split a scrambled morphing army most rally to death . . . yea . . im no pro but the ease of dropping (now with toss) zerg has to sacrifice ALL eco production and lose some for stat defense as at these points in the game we rarely have much other than lings in roaches . . pick up . .cant shoot air . . hmmmm. queen good but wont kill a medivac before the major damage is done . . .so looks like the answer is to build queens like drones? hmmm i wonder
Its why i love this game, when we figure this out it will be zerg op again . . but for now bane bust . . .its leet
You should only be able to make Hellions out of the factory, but with the upgrade you can transform them. Also nerf light damage by 5 and make Blueflame upgrade work on Hellbats. MB upgrade should be changed to cost 100/100. Anyways my suggestion, tired of seeing this in competitive play every game.
On June 12 2013 04:01 StatixEx wrote: yes zerg do need to make a spine and a spore . . .down 2 drones . . .terran turret, and bunker . . hmm can salvage one of these and the mule is instant call down and will mine 275 over its life, zerg has to remake drones wait . . .still only 5 mins per trip. Toss cannon, ok decent spend, but wait chrono out those probes sucka . . oh wait im zerg some mad push is coming make more units . . terran and toss simply keep making . . .oh and back on topic . . .they are dropping in 2 places at once . . .zerg race weakest pound for pound, have to split a scrambled morphing army most rally to death . . . yea . . im no pro but the ease of dropping (now with toss) zerg has to sacrifice ALL eco production and lose some for stat defense as at these points in the game we rarely have much other than lings in roaches . . pick up . .cant shoot air . . hmmmm. queen good but wont kill a medivac before the major damage is done . . .so looks like the answer is to build queens like drones? hmmm i wonder
Its why i love this game, when we figure this out it will be zerg op again . . but for now bane bust . . .its leet
Poor zerg... how come they can be so week, yet win 3/7 premier tournaments including Code S - defeating worlds strongest Terran in the finals, how come they have almost two times as many players in WCS premier KR as those ugly OP terrans with their hellbats?
Clearly, zerg players are so much better than terrans they can go with nothing less than 70%+ winrate. No way they could settle for the stupid 50%
On June 11 2013 19:15 Ghanburighan wrote: Note that David Kim did not actually say that they will do anything. And I like this. I do not see a massive problem with hellbats, not even in TvT. This is because the days when Fantasy could hellbat drop all over the place are gone, and smart players know how to defend against them, it's just that it's difficult to do.
I like the fact that just dropping hellbats does nearly nothing when the defender pulls probes. It's only when someone like Innovation does it against a lesser opponent that they do massive damage. And that's what we want from harassment: a good skill-based scale of damage. In the end, TvT is currently incredibly technical with constant multi-harass and multi-defense. It's great and awe-inspiring to watch (sorry pro's if you don't like playing it).
As other's have said, TvX is harass-based, while ZvX and PvX are a lot more stale. Instead of removing the harass-based play, we should improve the harass-potential of the other races. Although, P still has unexplored harass-options which only Rain seems to utilize at the moment.
It doesnt matter that he did not say anything about doing anything ... because they dont have to do anything even if he said something.
The important part here is that the community says something ... quite a lot ... which should be a big warning sign to Browder and Kim that things arent as they should be.
The fact that the community complains about something says Nothing about real problems. This community is whiny as anything. Remember when HOTS came out and everyone and their mother bitched about ZvT being impossible, and that T will win every tournament. Well, Zerg ended up taking MLG, Dreamhack and the GSL, i.e., the early premier tournaments. T has won IEM (where no Korean Z showed up), WCS Europe (hello Mvp) and WCS 1 (hello Innovation). And the win rates at the top are very much decent.
I repeat, this community and this thread complains way too much. Look for facts, not public perception of affairs.
You sound very biased The tournament a zerg won (MLG) One Zerg of all zergs could compete versus the terrans, the rest of the zergs HAD ZERO CHANCE!
It was Life that could compete, and he did WIN, but damn did he fight like hell versus the terrans he met, jesus (hello life)
I repeat, One zerg was in top8 at mlg
And most of the other Zergs weren't as high calibre. It was like two Code S Zergs (Life and Stephano) against a bunch of Code S Terrans. And hey, there were some Protoss' around as well, but who cares, right. Anyways, what I mean to say is that the lineup basically meant that there was one clear tournament favorite (Life) and some toplevel other guys, which happened to be mostly Terrans. Admittedly, to get this kind of view you'd need to step back a kilometre from TL, and calmly consider the lineup instead of getting overhyped by ELEPHAAAAAAAANTTS, FLAAAAAASHHHHHHHHHH, TL FIGHTIIIIIING and whatever other nongamerelated stuff determines who is a favorite in the eyes of the (TL) community.
On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote: Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough...
Like SCVs, that are made out of the CC and are clearly a robot miner that can be healed and repaired at the same time.
When's the last time you've seen scv drops wipe out an entire mineral line in mere seconds? You know better than that.
On June 11 2013 19:15 Ghanburighan wrote: Note that David Kim did not actually say that they will do anything. And I like this. I do not see a massive problem with hellbats, not even in TvT. This is because the days when Fantasy could hellbat drop all over the place are gone, and smart players know how to defend against them, it's just that it's difficult to do.
I like the fact that just dropping hellbats does nearly nothing when the defender pulls probes. It's only when someone like Innovation does it against a lesser opponent that they do massive damage. And that's what we want from harassment: a good skill-based scale of damage. In the end, TvT is currently incredibly technical with constant multi-harass and multi-defense. It's great and awe-inspiring to watch (sorry pro's if you don't like playing it).
As other's have said, TvX is harass-based, while ZvX and PvX are a lot more stale. Instead of removing the harass-based play, we should improve the harass-potential of the other races. Although, P still has unexplored harass-options which only Rain seems to utilize at the moment.
It doesnt matter that he did not say anything about doing anything ... because they dont have to do anything even if he said something.
The important part here is that the community says something ... quite a lot ... which should be a big warning sign to Browder and Kim that things arent as they should be.
The fact that the community complains about something says Nothing about real problems. This community is whiny as anything. Remember when HOTS came out and everyone and their mother bitched about ZvT being impossible, and that T will win every tournament. Well, Zerg ended up taking MLG, Dreamhack and the GSL, i.e., the early premier tournaments. T has won IEM (where no Korean Z showed up), WCS Europe (hello Mvp) and WCS 1 (hello Innovation). And the win rates at the top are very much decent.
I repeat, this community and this thread complains way too much. Look for facts, not public perception of affairs.
You sound very biased The tournament a zerg won (MLG) One Zerg of all zergs could compete versus the terrans, the rest of the zergs HAD ZERO CHANCE!
It was Life that could compete, and he did WIN, but damn did he fight like hell versus the terrans he met, jesus (hello life)
I repeat, One zerg was in top8 at mlg
And most of the other Zergs weren't as high calibre. It was like two Code S Zergs (Life and Stephano) against a bunch of Code S Terrans. And hey, there were some Protoss' around as well, but who cares, right. Anyways, what I mean to say is that the lineup basically meant that there was one clear tournament favorite (Life) and some toplevel other guys, which happened to be mostly Terrans. Admittedly, to get this kind of view you'd need to step back a kilometre from TL, and calmly consider the lineup instead of getting overhyped by ELEPHAAAAAAAANTTS, FLAAAAAASHHHHHHHHHH, TL FIGHTIIIIIING and whatever other nongamerelated stuff determines who is a favorite in the eyes of the (TL) community.
So leenock doesnt count, oh thats right
Maybe you should look up the definition of "most". There were 10 zergs in the tournament.
Leenock and Life were Code S caliber. Stephano was a Code S wannabe. And the rest were simply at least a level below.
e: also, Leenock lost to Innovation and Life won the whole thing.
On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote: Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough...
Like SCVs, that are made out of the CC and are clearly a robot miner that can be healed and repaired at the same time.
When's the last time you've seen scv drops wipe out an entire mineral line in mere seconds? You know better than that.
What are you talking about or did you bother to read at all? I was talking about healing and how none of it makes sense.
Once again Blizzard is doing what they should be and taking it slow. People want things to be nerfed or patched the moment there's a really strong strategy, but it takes time for counters to come up. I hope people haven't forgotten about PvZ in broodwar before Bisu came along....
easier to cry about balance and nerfs than to actually learn to play. We have seen this already with mines, new reapers, speedmedviacs months back. Hell, some pros even convinced Terran is broken and unbeatable, cough idra catz apollo most na zergs, but it seems people are starting to have adapt and no trouble defending against them. People finally start shutting up when win statistics rolls in and zergs are still winning tourneys left and right.
Even in the open beta people are convinced 8/8 rax reaper rush is unbeatable as zerg. Not such a viable strategy now
On June 11 2013 19:15 Ghanburighan wrote: Note that David Kim did not actually say that they will do anything. And I like this. I do not see a massive problem with hellbats, not even in TvT. This is because the days when Fantasy could hellbat drop all over the place are gone, and smart players know how to defend against them, it's just that it's difficult to do.
I like the fact that just dropping hellbats does nearly nothing when the defender pulls probes. It's only when someone like Innovation does it against a lesser opponent that they do massive damage. And that's what we want from harassment: a good skill-based scale of damage. In the end, TvT is currently incredibly technical with constant multi-harass and multi-defense. It's great and awe-inspiring to watch (sorry pro's if you don't like playing it).
As other's have said, TvX is harass-based, while ZvX and PvX are a lot more stale. Instead of removing the harass-based play, we should improve the harass-potential of the other races. Although, P still has unexplored harass-options which only Rain seems to utilize at the moment.
It doesnt matter that he did not say anything about doing anything ... because they dont have to do anything even if he said something.
The important part here is that the community says something ... quite a lot ... which should be a big warning sign to Browder and Kim that things arent as they should be.
The fact that the community complains about something says Nothing about real problems. This community is whiny as anything. Remember when HOTS came out and everyone and their mother bitched about ZvT being impossible, and that T will win every tournament. Well, Zerg ended up taking MLG, Dreamhack and the GSL, i.e., the early premier tournaments. T has won IEM (where no Korean Z showed up), WCS Europe (hello Mvp) and WCS 1 (hello Innovation). And the win rates at the top are very much decent.
I repeat, this community and this thread complains way too much. Look for facts, not public perception of affairs.
You sound very biased The tournament a zerg won (MLG) One Zerg of all zergs could compete versus the terrans, the rest of the zergs HAD ZERO CHANCE!
It was Life that could compete, and he did WIN, but damn did he fight like hell versus the terrans he met, jesus (hello life)
I repeat, One zerg was in top8 at mlg
And most of the other Zergs weren't as high calibre. It was like two Code S Zergs (Life and Stephano) against a bunch of Code S Terrans. And hey, there were some Protoss' around as well, but who cares, right. Anyways, what I mean to say is that the lineup basically meant that there was one clear tournament favorite (Life) and some toplevel other guys, which happened to be mostly Terrans. Admittedly, to get this kind of view you'd need to step back a kilometre from TL, and calmly consider the lineup instead of getting overhyped by ELEPHAAAAAAAANTTS, FLAAAAAASHHHHHHHHHH, TL FIGHTIIIIIING and whatever other nongamerelated stuff determines who is a favorite in the eyes of the (TL) community.
So leenock doesnt count, oh thats right
leenock counts as well, forgot about him. That makes 3 Code S Zergs. Compared to 6 Code S Terrans at that time. And 4 Code S Protoss. Still pretty hard outnumbered.
On June 12 2013 04:13 Naphal wrote: so hellbat does 30 dmg vs light now without upgrades, to not 2shoot workers (thats what this is about right?), you would need to decrease this by
8 for TvT or 11 for other races...
i think this is a bit much, even if you can get it back with the upgrade, until then, who would want hellbats?
You could increase their range/AOE? Or would that still be too shitty.
Maybe you could also scale their splash so at range 1 it does the full 30 and then at 2 it does 20 and at 3 it does 10 or some such.
The main problem is how cheap they are compared to how much damage they can do. Funnily enough, the nerf to medivacs only holding 2 of them made this worse, as a successful defense costs the harasser less now.
I'd say bump the cost of hellbats up to 200 or something. You can still get them cheap through the transform upgrade from hellions if you want, but if you try for early harass it'll cost you.
nerf the damage and make them influenced by blueflame seems to be a nice way to reduce the strength to some margin but dont change to much about the balance
On June 12 2013 04:49 iky43210 wrote: easier to cry about balance and nerfs than to actually learn to play. We have seen this already with mines, new reapers, speedmedviacs months back. Hell, some pros even convinced Terran is broken and unbeatable, cough idra catz apollo most na zergs, but it seems people are starting to have adapt and no trouble defending against them. People finally start shutting up when win statistics rolls in and zergs are still winning tourneys left and right.
Even in the open beta people are convinced 8/8 rax reaper rush is unbeatable as zerg. Not such a viable strategy now
You do realize that speedvacs, hellbats, widow mines(which led to the spore w/o evo chamber requirement, for example) were problematic during the beta stages, right? This isn't some NEW thing here.
Even IF this change were to happen, you still got OP marines,mules, salvage, speedvacs,unstoppable detection,etc.
People were saying they were concerned about the late game, but two hellbats dropped does the same amount of damage as letting a few banelings by, or a storm drop etc. Yes the costs can be different, but it's basically now that late game each race will have a super strong way of killing off workers if you do not react very very quickly.
The issue is early-mid game, but if Blizzard thinks they need to change things, I'm sure they'll find a gentle way. What often happens though is that people are slowly piecing together ways of dealing with a previously dominant strategy, and even a gentle nerf results in it being totally ineffective
On June 12 2013 04:58 Kettchup wrote: The main problem is how cheap they are compared to how much damage they can do. Funnily enough, the nerf to medivacs only holding 2 of them made this worse, as a successful defense costs the harasser less now.
lol what? You could have always dropped 2hellbats if you wanted. You know... noone forces you to put more units into a dropship then you need to achieve what you want.
The 4 cargo nerf was brilliant. Else we would be seeing drops with hellbats, that drop 2hellbats in one mineral line and 2 in the other. Then you are not half mining, but not mining at all...
On June 12 2013 04:49 iky43210 wrote: easier to cry about balance and nerfs than to actually learn to play. We have seen this already with mines, new reapers, speedmedviacs months back. Hell, some pros even convinced Terran is broken and unbeatable, cough idra catz apollo most na zergs, but it seems people are starting to have adapt and no trouble defending against them. People finally start shutting up when win statistics rolls in and zergs are still winning tourneys left and right.
Even in the open beta people are convinced 8/8 rax reaper rush is unbeatable as zerg. Not such a viable strategy now
You do realize that speedvacs, hellbats, widow mines(which led to the spore w/o evo chamber requirement, for example) were problematic during the beta stages, right? This isn't some NEW thing here.
Even IF this change were to happen, you still got OP marines,mules, salvage, speedvacs,unstoppable detection,etc.
Don't worry, Blizzard still loves you.
lol op marines and mules, bunker salvages? What is this, wing of liberty beta?
People were crying none stop about mines and speedmedivacs for months, and if you still are crying about them now then you might want to consider getting coaching or quit altogether.
Being a terran player, I cannot wait til the hellbat nerf. This will allow for us to abuse widow mine drops and 12 minute, 3 unpunished CC builds to shine with our medivac, mine, marine efficient trading against zergs. One thing after another will become nerfed and finally our race will become balanced. It really isn't fair that I was winning ~20% vs 1700 pt protoss/zerg players with the 2 mine/marine drop -instantly- with fake pressure in the front.
TvT will actually be fun to watch again because you'll see multiple starport reactor medivac constant bio drops everywhere.
GL observers. You'll probably have a few more months to prepare dat obs apm though!
On June 12 2013 04:58 Kettchup wrote: The main problem is how cheap they are compared to how much damage they can do. Funnily enough, the nerf to medivacs only holding 2 of them made this worse, as a successful defense costs the harasser less now.
If you would cut your legs of, you could save a lot of money in pants and shoes.
They need to do something about the hellbat because I'm sick of the TvT matchup being about who can hellbat drop better. Some players don't want to open up hellbat drops, but they do so at the risk of losing to a hellbat drop. Players are forced into hellbat wars because if you don't join them like innovation, then you just die to them like mvp. I don't blame players for hellbat dropping because it's the most efficient way to win in TvT.
On June 12 2013 04:58 Kettchup wrote: The main problem is how cheap they are compared to how much damage they can do. Funnily enough, the nerf to medivacs only holding 2 of them made this worse, as a successful defense costs the harasser less now.
If you would cut your legs of, you could save a lot of money in pants and shoes.
I don't quite agree with the person you're quoting either, but you're not doing anyone any favors by commenting with such illogical bs. At least think before posting, jesus christ.
On June 12 2013 03:00 Elldar wrote: 50:50 just mean that out of 100 hundred games both race got 50 wins. That does not say anything about which players who played against eachother or what type of strategy that was used. Even the skill of the players are really disambigious. 50:50 is really just a number with weak correlation to balance. Since balance has to be defined as when two equally skilled players meet then they have same chance of winning ,e.i., 50:50. With ladder two equally skilled player will rarely meet eachother even at the end of the season considering how much time both has spent playing so the overall mmr will be shifted where the one with more time spent more time playing will have a more accurate mmr then the others.
There is one skill that counts in starcraft - winning. Therefore balancing the number around number of victories for each race at the very top level seems solid to me.
Otherwise you would need a set of judges watching every game and giving each player points for their skillful actions. This is pushing SC2 towards figure ice-skating.
If you are not playing to win but to display your figure ice-skating, pardon me, starcraft 2 gosu skills then do not talk about the balance. Yesterday I played viking only vs elite zerg AI and I won. I feel that if took way more skill than doing so with mech or 4M. Now should I play viking-only TvZ on ladder and claim other races imba every time I lose? I don't think so.
The player pool and number of premier tournaments/year is large enough to make the stats matter. Winning is the only skill that must be taken into consideration when talking about balance.
The metagame, compositions, entertainment value, "gosu" skill, macrocraft, NR15 and wellcome to hellbats is something else. Maybe they should be addressed sooner or later but they are not balance.
By your standard protoss desperatly needs a buff since they do not seem to win big tournaments ? So blizz should focus on that instead of hellbat drops?
Besides going mass viking and winning is not skillful since it will only work against an opponent worse than you and going for mass viking display lack of strategic skill. I don't gt what you mean by skill but it is certainly not what I mean. As I see you think that a total scrub should be able to win aganst a code s player. Skill is not doing some tricky the word for that is gimmick. Skill is not missing a beat, have good understanding of economy, strategic choices, positioning and such. Besides winning is not a measurement of balance since bad players can win against better ones consistingly because of imbalances.
Such an imbalance could be that hellbat drops is harder to defend than to execute or overall too strong.
On June 12 2013 05:25 Canucklehead wrote: They need to do something about the hellbat because I'm sick of the TvT matchup being about who can hellbat drop better. Some players don't want to open up hellbat drops, but they do so at the risk of losing to a hellbat drop. Players are forced into hellbat wars because if you don't join them like innovation, then you just die to them like mvp. I don't blame players for hellbat dropping because it's the most efficient way to win in TvT.
I couldn't have said this any better. This is definitely what it feels like TvT has come down to. Demuslim shared the same beliefs and stated on stream about how he will never succumb to the style everyone is incorporating in their TvT. A week later (I shit you not) he did it every single TvT I watched. When I confronted him in chat about why he was so hellbent (lol) against using them yet uses the opening religiously.. he said "well, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.." That really opened my eyes and made me less angry at those abusing the strat because it really was the only way to win unless you were certain your opponent wasn't going hellbat comps/hellbat drops.
On June 12 2013 04:01 StatixEx wrote: yes zerg do need to make a spine and a spore . . .down 2 drones . . .terran turret, and bunker . . hmm can salvage one of these and the mule is instant call down and will mine 275 over its life, zerg has to remake drones wait . . .still only 5 mins per trip. Toss cannon, ok decent spend, but wait chrono out those probes sucka . . oh wait im zerg some mad push is coming make more units . . terran and toss simply keep making . . .oh and back on topic . . .they are dropping in 2 places at once . . .zerg race weakest pound for pound, have to split a scrambled morphing army most rally to death . . . yea . . im no pro but the ease of dropping (now with toss) zerg has to sacrifice ALL eco production and lose some for stat defense as at these points in the game we rarely have much other than lings in roaches . . pick up . .cant shoot air . . hmmmm. queen good but wont kill a medivac before the major damage is done . . .so looks like the answer is to build queens like drones? hmmm i wonder
Its why i love this game, when we figure this out it will be zerg op again . . but for now bane bust . . .its leet
Poor zerg... how come they can be so week, yet win 3/7 premier tournaments including Code S - defeating worlds strongest Terran in the finals, how come they have almost two times as many players in WCS premier KR as those ugly OP terrans with their hellbats?
Clearly, zerg players are so much better than terrans they can go with nothing less than 70%+ winrate. No way they could settle for the stupid 50%
you do realize that the zergpool in this Seasons WCS KR was decided in WoL so the amount if zergs in WCS KR season 1 can never ever be said to have anything to do with HOTS balance.
And the way you view balance seems utterly stupid to me. You basically would be fine with one race being completly OP in one part of the MU and the other in another part thus making the winratios 50-50. I myself would certinly prefer a game where even in the lategame the mathup is even in winratios.
Sure, you can argue that even winratios gives a balanced game but that's such a narrowminded way to view balance.
I myself wouldn't really like to see zergs feeling forced to Roach bane all in every game to beat terrans even if it results in a balanced winratio.
On June 12 2013 05:02 Phoenix2003 wrote: Even IF this change were to happen, you still got OP marines,mules, salvage, speedvacs,unstoppable detection,etc.
Don't worry, Blizzard still loves you.
I'm not sure you're aware of this buddy but it's not 2010 anymore.
On June 12 2013 04:58 Kettchup wrote: The main problem is how cheap they are compared to how much damage they can do. Funnily enough, the nerf to medivacs only holding 2 of them made this worse, as a successful defense costs the harasser less now.
If you would cut your legs of, you could save a lot of money in pants and shoes.
I don't quite agree with the person you're quoting either, but you're not doing anyone any favors by commenting with such illogical bs. At least think before posting, jesus christ.
Maybe to graphic but not stupid, unless you didn't understand what was wrong with the post i quoted. Definitely to much Dexter though lol
On June 12 2013 05:03 Pazuzu wrote: People were saying they were concerned about the late game, but two hellbats dropped does the same amount of damage as letting a few banelings by, or a storm drop etc. Yes the costs can be different, but it's basically now that late game each race will have a super strong way of killing off workers if you do not react very very quickly.
The issue is early-mid game, but if Blizzard thinks they need to change things, I'm sure they'll find a gentle way. What often happens though is that people are slowly piecing together ways of dealing with a previously dominant strategy, and even a gentle nerf results in it being totally ineffective
See that comparison cannot not be made cause 1. Banelings die after doing 1 hit, they aren't going to keep damage, neither can they be healed or are tanky whatsoever. 2 Storms rely on a pretty expensive unit with upgrades and even then you need the energy to even cast storm, ofc they are not tanky either or can be healed.
On June 12 2013 04:49 iky43210 wrote: easier to cry about balance and nerfs than to actually learn to play. We have seen this already with mines, new reapers, speedmedviacs months back. Hell, some pros even convinced Terran is broken and unbeatable, cough idra catz apollo most na zergs, but it seems people are starting to have adapt and no trouble defending against them. People finally start shutting up when win statistics rolls in and zergs are still winning tourneys left and right.
Even in the open beta people are convinced 8/8 rax reaper rush is unbeatable as zerg. Not such a viable strategy now
You do realize that speedvacs, hellbats, widow mines(which led to the spore w/o evo chamber requirement, for example) were problematic during the beta stages, right? This isn't some NEW thing here.
Even IF this change were to happen, you still got OP marines,mules, salvage, speedvacs,unstoppable detection,etc.
Don't worry, Blizzard still loves you.
lol op marines and mules, bunker salvages? What is this, wing of liberty beta?
People were crying none stop about mines and speedmedivacs for months, and if you still are crying about them now then you might want to consider getting coaching or quit altogether.
Those units were a problem then and they're a problem now since nothing was done about said unit during beta. Hence this thread and others. Those units should've been nerfed (or non-existant) and we wouldn't be in the situation now. The fact that marines can counter all stargate units is a joke. There's a reason I don't have ANY sympathy about mech not working vs. p.(which in itself is a myth, but whatever) Whose crying(besides terrans wanting to keep their op stuff)? I 'm making observations.
On June 12 2013 04:49 iky43210 wrote: easier to cry about balance and nerfs than to actually learn to play. We have seen this already with mines, new reapers, speedmedviacs months back. Hell, some pros even convinced Terran is broken and unbeatable, cough idra catz apollo most na zergs, but it seems people are starting to have adapt and no trouble defending against them. People finally start shutting up when win statistics rolls in and zergs are still winning tourneys left and right.
Even in the open beta people are convinced 8/8 rax reaper rush is unbeatable as zerg. Not such a viable strategy now
You do realize that speedvacs, hellbats, widow mines(which led to the spore w/o evo chamber requirement, for example) were problematic during the beta stages, right? This isn't some NEW thing here.
Even IF this change were to happen, you still got OP marines,mules, salvage, speedvacs,unstoppable detection,etc.
Don't worry, Blizzard still loves you.
lol op marines and mules, bunker salvages? What is this, wing of liberty beta?
People were crying none stop about mines and speedmedivacs for months, and if you still are crying about them now then you might want to consider getting coaching or quit altogether.
Those units were a problem then and they're a problem now since nothing was done about said unit during beta. Hence this thread and others. Those units should've been nerfed (or non-existant) and we wouldn't be in the situation now. The fact that marines can counter all stargate units is a joke. There's a reason I don't have ANY sympathy about mech not working vs. p.(which in itself is a myth, but whatever) Whose crying(besides terrans wanting to keep their op stuff)? I 'm making observations.
wow, someone is obviously having a hard time PvT... try to keep balancewhine like this to yourself. Mech TvP not working is a myth? well then, I guess you have alot of progames to prove that?
May I ask what lvl you are? I mean, most antiair counter all air pretty well.. marines are strong sure but you probably should never be in a situation where you are pure air vs pure marine besides early midgame :p
On June 12 2013 03:00 Elldar wrote: 50:50 just mean that out of 100 hundred games both race got 50 wins. That does not say anything about which players who played against eachother or what type of strategy that was used. Even the skill of the players are really disambigious. 50:50 is really just a number with weak correlation to balance. Since balance has to be defined as when two equally skilled players meet then they have same chance of winning ,e.i., 50:50. With ladder two equally skilled player will rarely meet eachother even at the end of the season considering how much time both has spent playing so the overall mmr will be shifted where the one with more time spent more time playing will have a more accurate mmr then the others.
There is one skill that counts in starcraft - winning. Therefore balancing the number around number of victories for each race at the very top level seems solid to me.
Otherwise you would need a set of judges watching every game and giving each player points for their skillful actions. This is pushing SC2 towards figure ice-skating.
If you are not playing to win but to display your figure ice-skating, pardon me, starcraft 2 gosu skills then do not talk about the balance. Yesterday I played viking only vs elite zerg AI and I won. I feel that if took way more skill than doing so with mech or 4M. Now should I play viking-only TvZ on ladder and claim other races imba every time I lose? I don't think so.
The player pool and number of premier tournaments/year is large enough to make the stats matter. Winning is the only skill that must be taken into consideration when talking about balance.
The metagame, compositions, entertainment value, "gosu" skill, macrocraft, NR15 and wellcome to hellbats is something else. Maybe they should be addressed sooner or later but they are not balance.
By your standard protoss desperatly needs a buff since they do not seem to win big tournaments ? So blizz should focus on that instead of hellbat drops?
There were 7 premier tournaments so far. Protoss made it to the final 4 times and won once. A perfect split would mean 2-3 victories and 4-5 appearances in the finals.
Given such a small sample size I can tell you, that Naniwa is singlehandedly resposible for Protoss not achivieng their statistical goals in terms of premier tournament wins.
Is that enough to warrant a buff? I don't think so. They have a better representation now in both WCS Eu and WCS Korea, also they are looking good in the pro league... this let's me think that they will do better on their own in the upcoming months.
Nevertheless toss is my number 1 pick for a buff and I would opt for it should the gap between them and other races widen. Right now I feel that they are closing the gap.
On June 12 2013 03:00 Elldar wrote: Besides going mass viking and winning is not skillful since it will only work against an opponent worse than you and going for mass viking display lack of strategic skill. I don't gt what you mean by skill but it is certainly not what I mean. As I see you think that a total scrub should be able to win aganst a code s player. Skill is not doing some tricky the word for that is gimmick. Skill is not missing a beat, have good understanding of economy, strategic choices, positioning and such. Besides winning is not a measurement of balance since bad players can win against better ones consistingly because of imbalances.
Such an imbalance could be that hellbat drops is harder to defend than to execute or overall too strong.
It is really simple for me. 2 guys go into lobby, each of them picks a race and then they play a BoX. They both play to win. The one who won is the one who displayed more skill - or maybe had more luck.
sOs forGG ---------------------------------------------- not missing a beat 9 7 understanding of economy 10 6 strategic choices 8 8 positioning 7 8 ---------------------------------------------- total 34 29
Thera you go, sOs wins game1 34:29.
Figure ice-skating skill-based starcraft where winning does not matter. Someone should run such tournament, I'd watch it 100%
On June 12 2013 05:02 Phoenix2003 wrote: Even IF this change were to happen, you still got OP marines,mules, salvage, speedvacs,unstoppable detection,etc.
Don't worry, Blizzard still loves you.
I'm not sure you're aware of this buddy but it's not 2010 anymore.
lmao
I don't necessarily want to say one thing's OP or another, but unless you thought WoL was the definition of perfection, everything is on the table for balance discussion, especially when new interactions arise from new units.
On June 12 2013 02:53 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: I don't understand why people DON'T build AA defences at their borders past 10min or when they make a push to fend off possible Hellbat drops!
It's not a game design problem, it's a player problem.
The earliest hellbat drop I remember is at the 7:30min mark.
you realize that Terran doesn't care if they lose the drop as long as it does provide the neccessary damage, which is one of the drops problem. Look at SoS vs. Innovation Game 1 and say that again.
No strategy in SC2 should be risk free and have some drawback when it miserably. Else it will makes for very bad gaming experiance.
I'd argue it isn't risk free. Those drops didn't just roll over and die and WHILE they may not have gotten an adequate number of probe killes (approx 5-6?) they kept the protoss army stationed on his base for 5+ minutes while inno took a safe third as well as gave constant information on the protoss army composition.
I'd argue that, perhaps, there has to be a little more cost but you're completely wrong if you think the drop is "risk free" or that his drop play didn't result in success.
On June 12 2013 03:00 Elldar wrote: 50:50 just mean that out of 100 hundred games both race got 50 wins. That does not say anything about which players who played against eachother or what type of strategy that was used. Even the skill of the players are really disambigious. 50:50 is really just a number with weak correlation to balance. Since balance has to be defined as when two equally skilled players meet then they have same chance of winning ,e.i., 50:50. With ladder two equally skilled player will rarely meet eachother even at the end of the season considering how much time both has spent playing so the overall mmr will be shifted where the one with more time spent more time playing will have a more accurate mmr then the others.
There is one skill that counts in starcraft - winning. Therefore balancing the number around number of victories for each race at the very top level seems solid to me.
Otherwise you would need a set of judges watching every game and giving each player points for their skillful actions. This is pushing SC2 towards figure ice-skating.
If you are not playing to win but to display your figure ice-skating, pardon me, starcraft 2 gosu skills then do not talk about the balance. Yesterday I played viking only vs elite zerg AI and I won. I feel that if took way more skill than doing so with mech or 4M. Now should I play viking-only TvZ on ladder and claim other races imba every time I lose? I don't think so.
The player pool and number of premier tournaments/year is large enough to make the stats matter. Winning is the only skill that must be taken into consideration when talking about balance.
The metagame, compositions, entertainment value, "gosu" skill, macrocraft, NR15 and wellcome to hellbats is something else. Maybe they should be addressed sooner or later but they are not balance.
By your standard protoss desperatly needs a buff since they do not seem to win big tournaments ? So blizz should focus on that instead of hellbat drops?
There were 7 premier tournaments so far. Protoss made it to the final 4 times and won once. A perfect split would mean 2-3 victories and 4-5 appearances in the semis.
Given such a small sample size I can tell you, that Naniwa is singlehandedly resposible for Protoss not achivieng their statistical goals in terms of premier tournament wins.
Is that enough to warrant a buff? I don't think so. They have a better representation now in both WCS Eu and WCS Korea, also they are looking good in the pro league... this let's me think that they will do better on their own in the upcoming months.
Nevertheless toss is my number 1 pick for a buff and I would opt for it should the gap between them and other races widen. Right now I feel that they are closing the gap.
On June 12 2013 03:00 Elldar wrote: Besides going mass viking and winning is not skillful since it will only work against an opponent worse than you and going for mass viking display lack of strategic skill. I don't gt what you mean by skill but it is certainly not what I mean. As I see you think that a total scrub should be able to win aganst a code s player. Skill is not doing some tricky the word for that is gimmick. Skill is not missing a beat, have good understanding of economy, strategic choices, positioning and such. Besides winning is not a measurement of balance since bad players can win against better ones consistingly because of imbalances.
Such an imbalance could be that hellbat drops is harder to defend than to execute or overall too strong.
It is really simple for me. 2 guys go into lobby, each of them picks a race and then they play a BoX. They both play to win. The one who won is the one who displayed more skill - or maybe had more luck.
sOs forGG ---------------------------------------------- not missing a beat 9 7 understanding of economy 10 6 strategic choices 8 8 positioning 7 8 ---------------------------------------------- total 34 29
Thera you go, sOs wins game1 34:29.
Figure ice-skating skill-based starcraft where winning does not matter. Someone should run such tournament, I'd watch it 100%
Who is saying winning doesn't matter? All I am saying and alot of people with me is that winning percentages isn't some magical way to prove balance and shouldn't be the only thing you look at by any means. You need to dig deeper and see in what parts of the game does X beat Y and the other way around. There are such a thing as good and bad balance no matter if it is actually balanced in winratios.
This "figure-skating" skill argument is just silly and you only look foolish trying to push it. Obviously that is not what people want.
On June 12 2013 04:49 iky43210 wrote: easier to cry about balance and nerfs than to actually learn to play. We have seen this already with mines, new reapers, speedmedviacs months back. Hell, some pros even convinced Terran is broken and unbeatable, cough idra catz apollo most na zergs, but it seems people are starting to have adapt and no trouble defending against them. People finally start shutting up when win statistics rolls in and zergs are still winning tourneys left and right.
Even in the open beta people are convinced 8/8 rax reaper rush is unbeatable as zerg. Not such a viable strategy now
You do realize that speedvacs, hellbats, widow mines(which led to the spore w/o evo chamber requirement, for example) were problematic during the beta stages, right? This isn't some NEW thing here.
Even IF this change were to happen, you still got OP marines,mules, salvage, speedvacs,unstoppable detection,etc.
Don't worry, Blizzard still loves you.
lol op marines and mules, bunker salvages? What is this, wing of liberty beta?
People were crying none stop about mines and speedmedivacs for months, and if you still are crying about them now then you might want to consider getting coaching or quit altogether.
Those units were a problem then and they're a problem now since nothing was done about said unit during beta. Hence this thread and others. Those units should've been nerfed (or non-existant) and we wouldn't be in the situation now. The fact that marines can counter all stargate units is a joke. There's a reason I don't have ANY sympathy about mech not working vs. p.(which in itself is a myth, but whatever) Whose crying(besides terrans wanting to keep their op stuff)? I 'm making observations.
The only reason mech works somewhat is the lack of experience of toss players. I mech always vs toss, but at least WoL had a nice late game transition, which is also gutted in HotS. But well, we were complaining about marines countering all stargate units, how rude! Especially since terran has so many others counters to toss air, right? Oh wait, thats right, there isnt much else. Oh sure there are a few units that do good against 1 or 2 toss air units, should as thor vs phoenix, but in general the marine is the only unit cost effective vs toss air (and not even population effective vs quite some toss air).
On June 12 2013 04:49 iky43210 wrote: easier to cry about balance and nerfs than to actually learn to play. We have seen this already with mines, new reapers, speedmedviacs months back. Hell, some pros even convinced Terran is broken and unbeatable, cough idra catz apollo most na zergs, but it seems people are starting to have adapt and no trouble defending against them. People finally start shutting up when win statistics rolls in and zergs are still winning tourneys left and right.
Even in the open beta people are convinced 8/8 rax reaper rush is unbeatable as zerg. Not such a viable strategy now
You do realize that speedvacs, hellbats, widow mines(which led to the spore w/o evo chamber requirement, for example) were problematic during the beta stages, right? This isn't some NEW thing here.
Even IF this change were to happen, you still got OP marines,mules, salvage, speedvacs,unstoppable detection,etc.
Don't worry, Blizzard still loves you.
lol op marines and mules, bunker salvages? What is this, wing of liberty beta?
People were crying none stop about mines and speedmedivacs for months, and if you still are crying about them now then you might want to consider getting coaching or quit altogether.
Those units were a problem then and they're a problem now since nothing was done about said unit during beta. Hence this thread and others. Those units should've been nerfed (or non-existant) and we wouldn't be in the situation now. The fact that marines can counter all stargate units is a joke. There's a reason I don't have ANY sympathy about mech not working vs. p.(which in itself is a myth, but whatever) Whose crying(besides terrans wanting to keep their op stuff)? I 'm making observations.
The only reason mech works somewhat is the lack of experience of toss players. I mech always vs toss, but at least WoL had a nice late game transition, which is also gutted in HotS. But well, we were complaining about marines countering all stargate units, how rude! Especially since terran has so many others counters to toss air, right? Oh wait, thats right, there isnt much else. Oh sure there are a few units that do good against 1 or 2 toss air units, should as thor vs phoenix, but in general the marine is the only unit cost effective vs toss air (and not even population effective vs quite some toss air).
So then don't play mech TvP....
mind=blown
It's like me complaining that I can't play PvZ strategies against Protoss.
On June 12 2013 03:00 Elldar wrote: 50:50 just mean that out of 100 hundred games both race got 50 wins. That does not say anything about which players who played against eachother or what type of strategy that was used. Even the skill of the players are really disambigious. 50:50 is really just a number with weak correlation to balance. Since balance has to be defined as when two equally skilled players meet then they have same chance of winning ,e.i., 50:50. With ladder two equally skilled player will rarely meet eachother even at the end of the season considering how much time both has spent playing so the overall mmr will be shifted where the one with more time spent more time playing will have a more accurate mmr then the others.
There is one skill that counts in starcraft - winning. Therefore balancing the number around number of victories for each race at the very top level seems solid to me.
Otherwise you would need a set of judges watching every game and giving each player points for their skillful actions. This is pushing SC2 towards figure ice-skating.
If you are not playing to win but to display your figure ice-skating, pardon me, starcraft 2 gosu skills then do not talk about the balance. Yesterday I played viking only vs elite zerg AI and I won. I feel that if took way more skill than doing so with mech or 4M. Now should I play viking-only TvZ on ladder and claim other races imba every time I lose? I don't think so.
The player pool and number of premier tournaments/year is large enough to make the stats matter. Winning is the only skill that must be taken into consideration when talking about balance.
The metagame, compositions, entertainment value, "gosu" skill, macrocraft, NR15 and wellcome to hellbats is something else. Maybe they should be addressed sooner or later but they are not balance.
By your standard protoss desperatly needs a buff since they do not seem to win big tournaments ? So blizz should focus on that instead of hellbat drops?
There were 7 premier tournaments so far. Protoss made it to the final 4 times and won once. A perfect split would mean 2-3 victories and 4-5 appearances in the semis.
Given such a small sample size I can tell you, that Naniwa is singlehandedly resposible for Protoss not achivieng their statistical goals in terms of premier tournament wins.
Is that enough to warrant a buff? I don't think so. They have a better representation now in both WCS Eu and WCS Korea, also they are looking good in the pro league... this let's me think that they will do better on their own in the upcoming months.
Nevertheless toss is my number 1 pick for a buff and I would opt for it should the gap between them and other races widen. Right now I feel that they are closing the gap.
On June 12 2013 03:00 Elldar wrote: Besides going mass viking and winning is not skillful since it will only work against an opponent worse than you and going for mass viking display lack of strategic skill. I don't gt what you mean by skill but it is certainly not what I mean. As I see you think that a total scrub should be able to win aganst a code s player. Skill is not doing some tricky the word for that is gimmick. Skill is not missing a beat, have good understanding of economy, strategic choices, positioning and such. Besides winning is not a measurement of balance since bad players can win against better ones consistingly because of imbalances.
Such an imbalance could be that hellbat drops is harder to defend than to execute or overall too strong.
It is really simple for me. 2 guys go into lobby, each of them picks a race and then they play a BoX. They both play to win. The one who won is the one who displayed more skill - or maybe had more luck.
sOs forGG ---------------------------------------------- not missing a beat 9 7 understanding of economy 10 6 strategic choices 8 8 positioning 7 8 ---------------------------------------------- total 34 29
Thera you go, sOs wins game1 34:29.
Figure ice-skating skill-based starcraft where winning does not matter. Someone should run such tournament, I'd watch it 100%
Who is saying winning doesn't matter? All I am saying and alot of people with me is that winning percentages isn't some magical way to prove balance and shouldn't be the only thing you look at by any means. You need to dig deeper and see in what parts of the game does X beat Y and the other way around. There are such a thing as good and bad balance no matter if it is actually balanced in winratios.
This "figure-skating" skill argument is just silly and you only look foolish trying to push it. Obviously that is not what people want.
Balance is pure maths. There is nothing more to it. Did you see "bad players winning against better ones consentingly" in the WCS? Who are the bad ones? Who are the good ones?
Right now the math part adds up. The viewer experience may not add up. And yeah, I'd like watch some better games too. But - first of all - I want the game to be balanced. I want to guess the outcome of every match based upon players skill and not their races. This makes sense only if the winrates are close to 50:50.
I've seen before what happens when you patch the metagame using balance patches and it was ugly. The balance is good now, if you want to patch the meta then you need to do it in a way that will not affect the balance. It's not as simple as "lets nerf the hellbat".
On June 12 2013 04:49 iky43210 wrote: easier to cry about balance and nerfs than to actually learn to play. We have seen this already with mines, new reapers, speedmedviacs months back. Hell, some pros even convinced Terran is broken and unbeatable, cough idra catz apollo most na zergs, but it seems people are starting to have adapt and no trouble defending against them. People finally start shutting up when win statistics rolls in and zergs are still winning tourneys left and right.
Even in the open beta people are convinced 8/8 rax reaper rush is unbeatable as zerg. Not such a viable strategy now
You do realize that speedvacs, hellbats, widow mines(which led to the spore w/o evo chamber requirement, for example) were problematic during the beta stages, right? This isn't some NEW thing here.
Even IF this change were to happen, you still got OP marines,mules, salvage, speedvacs,unstoppable detection,etc.
Don't worry, Blizzard still loves you.
lol op marines and mules, bunker salvages? What is this, wing of liberty beta?
People were crying none stop about mines and speedmedivacs for months, and if you still are crying about them now then you might want to consider getting coaching or quit altogether.
Those units were a problem then and they're a problem now since nothing was done about said unit during beta. Hence this thread and others. Those units should've been nerfed (or non-existant) and we wouldn't be in the situation now. The fact that marines can counter all stargate units is a joke. There's a reason I don't have ANY sympathy about mech not working vs. p.(which in itself is a myth, but whatever) Whose crying(besides terrans wanting to keep their op stuff)? I 'm making observations.
The only reason mech works somewhat is the lack of experience of toss players. I mech always vs toss, but at least WoL had a nice late game transition, which is also gutted in HotS. But well, we were complaining about marines countering all stargate units, how rude! Especially since terran has so many others counters to toss air, right? Oh wait, thats right, there isnt much else. Oh sure there are a few units that do good against 1 or 2 toss air units, should as thor vs phoenix, but in general the marine is the only unit cost effective vs toss air (and not even population effective vs quite some toss air).
So then don't play mech TvP....
mind=blown
It's like me complaining that I can't play PvZ strategies against Protoss.
Some of the ideas here are pretty outrageous, I have to say... I like the idea of having the damage of hellbats reduced and applying blue flame as damage upgrade sounds good. But maybe something can also be done with the servos upgrade, I don't see it being used often, in my games or pro games.
On June 12 2013 07:34 papapanda wrote: Some of the ideas here are pretty outrageous, I have to say... I like the idea of having the damage of hellbats reduced and applying blue flame as damage upgrade sounds good. But maybe something can also be done with the servos upgrade, I don't see it being used often, in my games or pro games.
I use it pretty often.
The trouble is, a lot of the time Hellions are really good, but by the time you can use them really efficiently you've either got the upgrade long before or not at all. I think they really should make it so you can't build hellbats straight off and make it only avaliable through the servos. Hellions are still, IMO better at harassment than Hellbats are.
The medivac seems very strong already. How about it cannot boost if it has heavy units? A heavy unit would take 4 slots or more in the medivac. You could still bio drop, hellion drop, but it wouldn't be as easy to boost around slow units like the hellbat.
On June 12 2013 04:54 Mantaza wrote: The problem is not the hellbat... its the freakin medivac speed that makes it way to easy. Open your eyes david kim.
I love it how people are desperately trying to get terran harassment generally nerfed because of a very specific problem in one aspect of the match up.
Not going to work, guys. We know what you're doing.
On June 11 2013 10:57 NrG.NeverExpo wrote: I feel like the most obvious solution would be to just make them un-healable by medivacs, but could be repaired. Adding to the pre igniter seems weird to me. I still feel they would be a viable way to harass and would even be good late game vs zealots if they werent healable, but its the fact that once they do drop they take so damn long to kill that makes them lethal.
Wedging 2-4 hellbats inside mineral lines makes them invincible vs zerglings etc.
LOL thats the whole point, They suppose to be hard counter to zerglings and zealots.
are you serious? Taking away the fact that they can be healed by medivacs, a good player using them properly will still ABSOLUTELY hard counter those units. You're a fool if you think otherwise.
On June 12 2013 04:54 Mantaza wrote: The problem is not the hellbat... its the freakin medivac speed that makes it way to easy. Open your eyes david kim.
I love it how people are desperately trying to get terran harassment generally nerfed because of a very specific problem in one aspect of the match up.
Not going to work, guys. We know what you're doing.
There's a problem when a medevac can pass over a significant investment of static defense and still manage to drop with impunity. There's a problem when medvacs are guaranteed to make it to the opponent's mineral line. There's a problem when Terrans are not punished for being careless with their medivacs and can instead just waltz off after a battle and continue to build up a lethal cloud. There's a problem when a flock of mutas has to chase a medevac halfway across the map before it can kill it because of a free speedbost with a ridiculously short cooldown. There's a PROBLEM, when Terran players using medevacs cannot be punished for the mistakes they make using them.
I had a terran hellbat drop me a lot. At one point he was circuling my third trying to catch my drones while 3 queens were shooting down his medivac. He didn't care, he just kept trying to drop on my drones in hopes of it would work, even if there was a 10 percent chance it would. Terrans don't even care if the drop dies. All they is one or two successful drop to really throw you off. It's got nothing to do with skill, when they fly past 3 overlords, over static defense, pass a queen and almost kill a drone, you just keep doing it until one lands. GG.
David Kim told InControl on State of the Game a month or so back that if they started seeing Hellbats in nearly every game, they'd nerf it. Well, I think Innovation and MVP have proved that pretty much the entirety of TvT revolves around Hellbat drops and Innovation vs sOs proved that even if Protoss successfully defends the drops, the threat of Hellbat drops alone means at high levels, Protoss can't expand as fas as terran.
I mean, warp gate technology is good for defending drops, but the time it takes to warp in and kill hellbats with medivacs healing them is more than enough time to kill an entire worker line. Meanwhile Protoss has to all in to harass a mineral line (a la proxy Oracle) which Innovation proved in the next game doesn't work anyway.
For the record I'm not a top tier player, my only issue with this notion is what is the big deal? It's just something that needs to be scouted, Zerg players should have overlords spread out to spot potential drops and give enough time. Baneling/ling burst a guy doing drops, most of his economy at that point is getting to that point, the amount of units he has really shouldn't be all that great. I mean getting proxxied in some sort of way can seem imbalanced at times when not scouted upon. Just as cheese builds are viable so is this. Proving a point by pointing to the 1 player(Innovation) who happens to be playing out of his mind right now isn't really saying that all builds are going to just go that way. Protoss make like 2 cannons and leave maybe 2/3 stalkers where a drop might happen. I've had oracles do just as much damage or even more in roughly the same amount of time.
Regardless of logic (Which why I was arguing for no bio tag, cargo space, etc), the current hellbat alone is not that op. And medivac needs just a little bit of nerf/change that would make players to have higher skills to make the drop successful.
On June 12 2013 10:08 reafah wrote: For the record I'm not a top tier player, my only issue with this notion is what is the big deal? It's just something that needs to be scouted, Zerg players should have overlords spread out to spot potential drops and give enough time. Baneling/ling burst a guy doing drops, most of his economy at that point is getting to that point, the amount of units he has really shouldn't be all that great. I mean getting proxxied in some sort of way can seem imbalanced at times when not scouted upon. Just as cheese builds are viable so is this. Proving a point by pointing to the 1 player(Innovation) who happens to be playing out of his mind right now isn't really saying that all builds are going to just go that way. Protoss make like 2 cannons and leave maybe 2/3 stalkers where a drop might happen. I've had oracles do just as much damage or even more in roughly the same amount of time.
So your solution as protoss is to spend important minerals early on on static defenses and then play extremely passively? Really, you think that that is the answer, and you don't see a problem?
On June 12 2013 10:49 SsDrKosS wrote: Regardless of logic (Which why I was arguing for no bio tag, cargo space, etc), the current hellbat alone is not that op. And medivac needs just a little bit of nerf/change that would make players to have higher skills to make the drop successful.
You're in the wrong thread if you want to advocate for nerfing marine/marauder drops by changing the medivacs.
On June 12 2013 10:49 SsDrKosS wrote: Regardless of logic (Which why I was arguing for no bio tag, cargo space, etc), the current hellbat alone is not that op. And medivac needs just a little bit of nerf/change that would make players to have higher skills to make the drop successful.
You're in the wrong thread if you want to advocate for nerfing marine/marauder drops by changing the medivacs.
Hmm... But I really don't know how to nerf hellbat drops without affecting other matches. What do you guys think about the davie's dmg nerf then? (he only kinda mentioned though.)
On June 12 2013 11:18 plogamer wrote: Watching WCS AM rightnow. Hellbat drops from Major are not doing much. Yeah he's not Code S korean, but nor are his opponents.
Seriously, it's only a problem in TvT so far. Any nerf that impacts the balance of non-mirror Terran matchups would be an idiotic move.
The entire meta-game right now anticipates those drops, and they are still cost effective. If you absolutely know something is coming, and there is little/nothing you can do to cost effectively stop it, its wrong. Not to mention that the meta-game stagnates, since doing anything other than being super safe is suicide.
Im also of the opinion that its slightly less prominent in tvz not because its much worse, but because there are fantastic alternatives that don't end in the Terran losing to helbat drops lol.
On June 11 2013 10:57 NrG.NeverExpo wrote: I feel like the most obvious solution would be to just make them un-healable by medivacs, but could be repaired. Adding to the pre igniter seems weird to me. I still feel they would be a viable way to harass and would even be good late game vs zealots if they werent healable, but its the fact that once they do drop they take so damn long to kill that makes them lethal.
Wedging 2-4 hellbats inside mineral lines makes them invincible vs zerglings etc.
LOL thats the whole point, They suppose to be hard counter to zerglings and zealots.
are you serious? Taking away the fact that they can be healed by medivacs, a good player using them properly will still ABSOLUTELY hard counter those units. You're a fool if you think otherwise.
Taking away the Hellbat's ability to heal takes away its intended tankiness, if you do that you need to make another change somewhere to give mech a meat shield. Maybe they could do something that uses SCVs, give them the ability to construct a moveable wall (a wall that the SCV can carry) or something.
On June 12 2013 08:35 JacobShock wrote: I had a terran hellbat drop me a lot. At one point he was circuling my third trying to catch my drones while 3 queens were shooting down his medivac. He didn't care, he just kept trying to drop on my drones in hopes of it would work, even if there was a 10 percent chance it would. Terrans don't even care if the drop dies. All they is one or two successful drop to really throw you off. It's got nothing to do with skill, when they fly past 3 overlords, over static defense, pass a queen and almost kill a drone, you just keep doing it until one lands. GG.
Thus according to you and similar thought, that process of dodging queens, spores and spines while avoiding detection requires no skill.
By that logic, baneling drops and prism mass warp-ins should be nerfed as well.
I see so many arguments about mech being nerfed if they nerf the hellbat. How about just don't play mech? Terrans crying that mech is inviable would just be like protoss' crying about not being able to go only air or robo.
On June 12 2013 13:30 Corsus wrote: I see so many arguments about mech being nerfed if they nerf the hellbat. How about just don't play mech? Terrans crying that mech is inviable would just be like protoss' crying about not being able to go only air or robo.
Right... Shutting down synergies between entire tech trees (starport+factory) will enrich the player and spectator experience. *sarcasm*
I thought that was the whole point of the expansion, no? New units and new synergies. Clearly we need more stim marine drops.
On June 12 2013 13:30 Corsus wrote: I see so many arguments about mech being nerfed if they nerf the hellbat. How about just don't play mech? Terrans crying that mech is inviable would just be like protoss' crying about not being able to go only air or robo.
Gotta agree here. In BW, I couldn't have cared less that bio wasn't viable, even though playing with mech was hard/imbalanced, too. In an ideal world, yeah maybe you can go every route and it's viable and fun to watch. But, last time I checked, no matter how many adjustments get made, immortals are still an anti mech unit and there's no real answer to a transition to mass tempests. It is what it is. Play bio and deal with it or only use mech on a select few maps. Big deal.
I'm playing toss and I still think making "only air" viable is freaking lame. The worst games in SC are "air toss" games. If they nerf a worker rush, it hurts that style, but what does it change.... if you're dealt some good cards and some meh ones... play the good ones and be quiet.
guys? Does anyone knows what exactly would be a side effect of hellbat with nerfed dmg? (until the blue flame)? -I know the balance team did not say anything yet, just assuming
On June 12 2013 10:08 reafah wrote: For the record I'm not a top tier player, my only issue with this notion is what is the big deal? It's just something that needs to be scouted, Zerg players should have overlords spread out to spot potential drops and give enough time. Baneling/ling burst a guy doing drops, most of his economy at that point is getting to that point, the amount of units he has really shouldn't be all that great. I mean getting proxxied in some sort of way can seem imbalanced at times when not scouted upon. Just as cheese builds are viable so is this. Proving a point by pointing to the 1 player(Innovation) who happens to be playing out of his mind right now isn't really saying that all builds are going to just go that way. Protoss make like 2 cannons and leave maybe 2/3 stalkers where a drop might happen. I've had oracles do just as much damage or even more in roughly the same amount of time.
So your solution as protoss is to spend important minerals early on on static defenses and then play extremely passively? Really, you think that that is the answer, and you don't see a problem?
So what you're saying is it's not viable to build a phoenix or to harass first with an oracle? I'm pretty sure you can get either of those as fast or faster then I can get to the point of dropping hellbats
On June 12 2013 15:05 SsDrKosS wrote: guys? Does anyone knows what exactly would be a side effect of hellbat with nerfed dmg? (until the blue flame)? -I know the balance team did not say anything yet, just assuming
One thing i can see is it would be harder to incorporate them into your army in TvP.
Which isn't a bad thing because Hellbats fuck zealots for breakfeast.
Hellbat drops right now are as strong as when BoxeR figured out Blue Flame Hellion-openings: there was virtually no risk to trying it and the reward could be an instant win.
The problem with Hellbat drops isn't that they occur but when they occur: the earliest possible time would be between 8 and 9 minutes (depending on the size of the map). If that could be delayed by a minute or two, then the defender would at least have the opportunity to set up some sort of defense; if he doesn't then that's his own fault.
So here's my proposed fix: Hellbats start out as pure Mechanical (so no Bio-Mech hybrid). Then, get rid of the Transformation Servos upgrade - that upgrade has never been used and will never be used in pro play - and instead, change it to Hellbat-healing (call it "Organic Operator" or something) which adds Biological to all Hellbats.
Like this, it gives the Terran a tactical choice that has real consequences: do I execute the drop as quickly as possible but run the risk of not doing the damage I need it to do? Or do I wait to research Hellbat-healing, so that if I get in I can do the damage that I need to do, but run the risk of not being able to get in anymore (albeit with a more smooth transition to Bio-Mech): High risk/reward Hellbat drops @ 8-9 minutes vs. safer Hellbat drops @ 10-11 minutes.
On June 12 2013 19:47 TheBorg wrote: Hellbat drops right now are as strong as when BoxeR figured out Blue Flame Hellion-openings: there was virtually no risk to trying it and the reward could be an instant win.
The problem with Hellbat drops isn't that they occur but when they occur: the earliest possible time would be between 8 and 9 minutes (depending on the size of the map). If that could be delayed by a minute or two, then the defender would at least have the opportunity to set up some sort of defense; if he doesn't then that's his own fault.
So here's my proposed fix: Hellbats start out as pure Mechanical (so no Bio-Mech hybrid). Then, get rid of the Transformation Servos upgrade - that upgrade has never been used and will never be used in pro play - and instead, change it to Hellbat-healing (call it "Organic Operator" or something) which adds Biological to all Hellbats.
Like this, it gives the Terran a tactical choice that has real consequences: do I execute the drop as quickly as possible but run the risk of not doing the damage I need it to do? Or do I wait to research Hellbat-healing, so that if I get in I can do the damage that I need to do, but run the risk of not being able to get in anymore (albeit with a more smooth transition to Bio-Mech): High risk/reward Hellbat drops @ 8-9 minutes vs. safer Hellbat drops @ 10-11 minutes.
I like this option than nerfing the damage. The name should be instead, "Biosteel frame upgrade" a nod to WoL's story mode upgrade.
That being said, what Daid Kim is doing is bad for the game, by leaving it hanging, sends a message to that whiners just need to whine harder instead of learning to play better I can imagine what happens to DT if David Kim were at the helm. They'd probably do less damage than zealots (see Ghost snipe ability).
On June 12 2013 19:47 TheBorg wrote: Hellbat drops right now are as strong as when BoxeR figured out Blue Flame Hellion-openings: there was virtually no risk to trying it and the reward could be an instant win.
The problem with Hellbat drops isn't that they occur but when they occur: the earliest possible time would be between 8 and 9 minutes (depending on the size of the map). If that could be delayed by a minute or two, then the defender would at least have the opportunity to set up some sort of defense; if he doesn't then that's his own fault.
So here's my proposed fix: Hellbats start out as pure Mechanical (so no Bio-Mech hybrid). Then, get rid of the Transformation Servos upgrade - that upgrade has never been used and will never be used in pro play - and instead, change it to Hellbat-healing (call it "Organic Operator" or something) which adds Biological to all Hellbats.
Like this, it gives the Terran a tactical choice that has real consequences: do I execute the drop as quickly as possible but run the risk of not doing the damage I need it to do? Or do I wait to research Hellbat-healing, so that if I get in I can do the damage that I need to do, but run the risk of not being able to get in anymore (albeit with a more smooth transition to Bio-Mech): High risk/reward Hellbat drops @ 8-9 minutes vs. safer Hellbat drops @ 10-11 minutes.
the transformation is being used in basically every mech TvT and TvZ...
On June 12 2013 20:23 Big J wrote: the transformation is being used in basically every mech TvT and TvZ...
Seriously? Cause I have watched nearly every match from WCS AM, EU & KR and not once have I seen Hellbats transforming to Hellions or vicve versa, seen the icon in the "Upgrades" panel or heard Tastosis shout "Oh my God, he's transforming his Hellions!!!"
i get that they are kind of making TvT a little stale, but I don't see how you nerf them without making them basically useless or inferior harassment...and also weaken the already shitty mech substantially. The strength of the hellbat going into the early midgame allows mech players to actually set up their defense and get an economy going against a much stronger bio composition already. I honestly think they should just get more time...you pull your workers and its fine.. i really dont see how its any easier to execute than an any other drop, its just somewhat cheap. Terran most of the time is forced to do damage to other races rushing tech or being greedy, OR have something somewhat non committal to allow them to pull off a greedy play.
On June 12 2013 22:19 b0ub0u wrote: Is it me or no one is using the Servo upgrade? I never saw a transformation in a pro game.
Maybe I didn`t watch enough games.
I think they do get it. It's just once they change hellions to hellbats you never see them switch back, But there have been heavy hellion openings where I've wondered where they went to only see hellbats the rest of the game. But you are right, it feels like two separate units.
Hellbat drops shouldnt be a big part of the game, its drops ok not a nuke in your mineral field. Its like when you harass with mutas the game shouldn end there if you have turrets and mines to defend it. The biggest problem is tvt of course, but if you talk about the other matchups to its like 15 mutas show up at the 9 min mark.
Cool ideas, and I agree with everything, except that I think Widow Mines shouldn't require a tech lab and Hellbats shouldn't have their attack speed nerfed. But if the rest of the changes went through, SC2 would be a lot better.
Cool ideas, and I agree with everything, except that I think Widow Mines shouldn't require a tech lab and Hellbats shouldn't have their attack speed nerfed. But if the rest of the changes went through, SC2 would be a lot better.
Widow mines – flip the resources (caster type – more gas, little minerals), tech lab requirement, 30s build time, lower the splash to 35, health to 70. Hellbats – double the attack cooldown, lower the base damage and enable blue flame for more bonus vs. light, 1 base armour (make it a tanking unit it’s supposed to be while hellion being the harassing unit).
TL:DR summary
Nerf the new units to hell. Widow mine: 25m 75g, tech lab requirement, Why the hell would someone even build one considering siege tanks would be available b/c of tech lab, yet does significantly less damage than a siege tank (WM absurdly slow rate of fire), less health.
The second "recommendation" is an outright nerf to even build hellbats Not only is it slower than sh*t sliding down a slope, it can't even beat units it's supposed to crush (melee units)! Hellbats are SPECIALIST UNITS same as DT, corruptors, etc.
Every time a Terran pro stomps with a unit composition, the cries of nerf are so loud. When Zerg or toss do it, it's like "Stephano is going towards a bread and butter build of early mass maxed roach using his superior macro" When Invasion does it, "TERRAN HELLBATS OMG, BLIZZARD LOOK INTO THIS"
Yeah in that case just remove them from the game, better solution than nerfing it into complete crap, just because one of them might need a minor nerf.
Yeah in that case just remove them from the game, better solution than nerfing it into complete crap, just because one of them might need a minor nerf.
Cool ideas, and I agree with everything, except that I think Widow Mines shouldn't require a tech lab and Hellbats shouldn't have their attack speed nerfed. But if the rest of the changes went through, SC2 would be a lot better.
Thanks. The reasoning behind the widow mine changes was to make it more in on par with siege tanks and splash providing units in general.
Concerning the hellbat, as far as I know it was intended as buffer against late game protoss, mainly the zealots. With hellbat drops the attack cooldown plays a smaller role but I wouldn’t nerf the damage against light because it would make tanking upgraded zealots difficult, just the base damage - hellbats should be terrible against buildings, roaches etc. and even with blue flame they shouldn’t have higher dps than hellions because they are the tanking unit.
Yeah in that case just remove them from the game, better solution than nerfing it into complete crap, just because one of them might need a minor nerf.
Maybe these guys should just play WoL
You know that mines are better in a standard army then hellbats right? Atleast vs zerg. So you cant whine about that, its nerfing a specific unit at a specific task.
Yeah in that case just remove them from the game, better solution than nerfing it into complete crap, just because one of them might need a minor nerf.
Maybe these guys should just play WoL
You know that mines are better in a standard army then hellbats right? Atleast vs zerg. So you cant whine about that, its nerfing a specific unit at a specific task.
I don't mind a smart, TvT-focused hellbat nerf.
The "reddit proposal" is no such thing. It is "let's nerf those new T units to the ground". If the TvZ and TvP is pretty balanced with the current hellbat how will it work out with one that has 30% of the current DPS? That is what that reddit guy proposes... "let's lower the damage and double the attack cooldown".
Yeah in that case just remove them from the game, better solution than nerfing it into complete crap, just because one of them might need a minor nerf.
Maybe these guys should just play WoL
You know that mines are better in a standard army then hellbats right? Atleast vs zerg. So you cant whine about that, its nerfing a specific unit at a specific task.
If the TvZ and TvP is pretty balanced with the current hellbat
The changes should be this drastic because the situation is this bad and hellbats are detrimental to all matchups, not just TvT. I don’t need to convince you or anyone else for that matter, the point was that Blizzard always comes to the right conclusions late, if at all.
Yeah in that case just remove them from the game, better solution than nerfing it into complete crap, just because one of them might need a minor nerf.
Maybe these guys should just play WoL
You know that mines are better in a standard army then hellbats right? Atleast vs zerg. So you cant whine about that, its nerfing a specific unit at a specific task.
If the TvZ and TvP is pretty balanced with the current hellbat
The changes should be this drastic because the situation is this bad and hellbats are detrimental to all matchups, not just TvT. I don’t need to convince you or anyone else for that matter, the point was that Blizzard always comes to the right conclusions late, if at all.
Once again here are the top-tier race stats for the WCS Premier Division:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 11 11 10 actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea optimal: 11 11 10 actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners optimal: 3 2 2 actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists optimal: 4 5 5 actual 4P 5Z 5T
This is the situation and I can't see nothing warranting such a huge T nerf in it. Terran has the optimal number of tournament wins and finalists and is slightly underrepresented in WCS Premier Season 2.
e: also Blizzard finally dropped their "hey let's nerf stuff after one series we don't like" and they deserver to be praised for that.
Yeah in that case just remove them from the game, better solution than nerfing it into complete crap, just because one of them might need a minor nerf.
Maybe these guys should just play WoL
You know that mines are better in a standard army then hellbats right? Atleast vs zerg. So you cant whine about that, its nerfing a specific unit at a specific task.
If the TvZ and TvP is pretty balanced with the current hellbat
The changes should be this drastic because the situation is this bad and hellbats are detrimental to all matchups, not just TvT. I don’t need to convince you or anyone else for that matter, the point was that Blizzard always comes to the right conclusions late, if at all.
What is this, I don't even...
I can use the EXACT Same argument for the Viper and the Oracle. Both units require a significant adjustment in the opponent's game play when put in force. E.g. WoL Mass marine/siege tank style will be roflowned at 15min by proper control with roach/hydra/viper
The fact is Terrans are at the cutting edge of innovation (pun not intended) adopting the new units and as usual the cries of entitlement are drowning out reasonable voices.
Both Protoss and Zerg have insane defense options (in addition to existing solutions): P) FF box hellbats while splitting probes while warping in. Z) two spare queens to focus down medivacs and transfuse each other for "infinite health"
If anything my recommendation is that static defenses (including bunker) have improved AI that focus down drop ships FIRST.
I died to 3 hellbat drops today. By the 4th terran opponent, I know it was coming and knew how to prepare for it. Timing is the key issue I guess. It comes way too early
On June 13 2013 02:26 bObA wrote: and what about oracles ??? not too ez to use and too many damages too fast ???
Oracles don't cost 200 minerals. Also, producing Oracles severely affects one's build order in a negative fashion. Hellbat drops do not.
So it's Terran players fault for optimizing hellbat's synergies with medivacs, creating optimized 2base expand builds by exploiting the new unit.
May I remind everyone that 200/200 energy Oracles are essentially flying colossi without range upgrade? Both Protoss and Zerg can use THE EXACT SAME CONCEPTS. X-gate poke/multi-prong in the front with Oracle backstab. X-hatch poke/multi-prong in the front with baneling drop on the X base.
Except your changes are atrocious for the balance of other match-ups. Sounds more like a disgruntled player who really hates dealing with hellbat drops. And those WM suggestions...wtf?
Anyhow, back to topic, I also really really appreciate Davey's team really taking their time to let hurdles in the metagame have a chance to work themselves out. I really refreshing change of pace compared to WoL.
On June 12 2013 04:49 iky43210 wrote: easier to cry about balance and nerfs than to actually learn to play. We have seen this already with mines, new reapers, speedmedviacs months back. Hell, some pros even convinced Terran is broken and unbeatable, cough idra catz apollo most na zergs, but it seems people are starting to have adapt and no trouble defending against them. People finally start shutting up when win statistics rolls in and zergs are still winning tourneys left and right.
Even in the open beta people are convinced 8/8 rax reaper rush is unbeatable as zerg. Not such a viable strategy now
You do realize that speedvacs, hellbats, widow mines(which led to the spore w/o evo chamber requirement, for example) were problematic during the beta stages, right? This isn't some NEW thing here.
Even IF this change were to happen, you still got OP marines,mules, salvage, speedvacs,unstoppable detection,etc.
Don't worry, Blizzard still loves you.
lol op marines and mules, bunker salvages? What is this, wing of liberty beta?
People were crying none stop about mines and speedmedivacs for months, and if you still are crying about them now then you might want to consider getting coaching or quit altogether.
Those units were a problem then and they're a problem now since nothing was done about said unit during beta. Hence this thread and others. Those units should've been nerfed (or non-existant) and we wouldn't be in the situation now. The fact that marines can counter all stargate units is a joke. There's a reason I don't have ANY sympathy about mech not working vs. p.(which in itself is a myth, but whatever) Whose crying(besides terrans wanting to keep their op stuff)? I 'm making observations.
The only reason mech works somewhat is the lack of experience of toss players. I mech always vs toss, but at least WoL had a nice late game transition, which is also gutted in HotS. But well, we were complaining about marines countering all stargate units, how rude! Especially since terran has so many others counters to toss air, right? Oh wait, thats right, there isnt much else. Oh sure there are a few units that do good against 1 or 2 toss air units, should as thor vs phoenix, but in general the marine is the only unit cost effective vs toss air (and not even population effective vs quite some toss air).
So then don't play mech TvP....
mind=blown
It's like me complaining that I can't play PvZ strategies against Protoss.
The reason people complain is because Blizzard claims that they want mech to work in this game......and in the current form it does not.
[QUOTE]On June 13 2013 02:18 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: [QUOTE]On June 13 2013 01:56 Zax19 wrote: [QUOTE]On June 13 2013 01:30 scypio wrote: [QUOTE]On June 13 2013 01:11 Usernameffs wrote: [QUOTE]On June 13 2013 00:23 scypio wrote: [QUOTE]On June 13 2013 00:19 Sissors wrote: [QUOTE]On June 12 2013 22:32 Zax19 wrote: As I said several times before, it's the obvious fix... [url=http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1edwcu/meta_episode_4_vod_idra_catz_iaguz_and_artosis/c9zj53c]http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1edwcu/meta_episode_4_vod_idra_catz_iaguz_and_artosis/c9zj53c[/url][/QUOTE] Yeah in that case just remove them from the game, better solution than nerfing it into complete crap, just because one of them might need a minor nerf. [/QUOTE]
Both Protoss and Zerg have insane defense options (in addition to existing solutions): P) FF box hellbats while splitting probes while warping in. Z) two spare queens to focus down medivacs and transfuse each other for "infinite health"
If anything my recommendation is that static defenses (including bunker) have improved AI that focus down drop ships FIRST. [/QUOTE]
I´m sorry but when do you have two queens with maxed energy when an early hellbat drop happens? And two queens wont shot down the medivac fast enough and it takes a second to roast half of your opponents drones. Even if they are running away you can boost your medivac on top of them and losing the medivac doesn´t even matter.
I agree that hellbat drops are a problem BUT only by like 40 seconds... top zergs (soulkey vs innovation) have shown u can shut down HBdrop and take 0 damage especially with overlord scout.. Toss has nexus cannon even phoenix openers (jangbi vs flash) if ur into that If terran does a FE then its a very tight line to get WM or turrets or vikes to completely shut down a fast double drop...
If blizz can find a way to delay drops enough for another round of units or static D every race will have a better opportunity to both punish (pre-emptive or counter attack) and defend HB drops. I like the idea of needing the blue flame upg... this would lend itself to blue flame openers then getting the transform upgrade (which has almost been removed from the game)... but i think a compromise might be to take out the armory requirement...
There is no easy answer to the problem that is the hellbat, but HOTS is so fun because harras is so strong: mutas, oracles Medevac boost + WM or HB. Medevac boost instantly made every Tv MU more fun to play and watch and blizz will NOT change it. so try and find a solution to HB!
On June 13 2013 03:40 Doc Brawler wrote: I agree that hellbat drops are a problem BUT only by like 40 seconds... top zergs (soulkey vs innovation) have shown u can shut down HBdrop and take 0 damage especially with overlord scout.. Toss has nexus cannon even phoenix openers (jangbi vs flash) if ur into that If terran does a FE then its a very tight line to get WM or turrets or vikes to completely shut down a fast double drop...
If blizz can find a way to delay drops enough for another round of units or static D every race will have a better opportunity to both punish (pre-emptive or counter attack) and defend HB drops. I like the idea of needing the blue flame upg... this would lend itself to blue flame openers then getting the transform upgrade (which has almost been removed from the game)... but i think a compromise might be to take out the armory requirement...
There is no easy answer to the problem that is the hellbat, but HOTS is so fun because harras is so strong: mutas, oracles Medevac boost + WM or HB. Medevac boost instantly made every Tv MU more fun to play and watch and blizz will NOT change it. so try and find a solution to HB!
I agree that the new harras options make the game more fun but hellbats just are plain boring and they make the experience worse for the viewer.
On June 13 2013 03:40 Doc Brawler wrote: I agree that hellbat drops are a problem BUT only by like 40 seconds... top zergs (soulkey vs innovation) have shown u can shut down HBdrop and take 0 damage especially with overlord scout.. Toss has nexus cannon even phoenix openers (jangbi vs flash) if ur into that If terran does a FE then its a very tight line to get WM or turrets or vikes to completely shut down a fast double drop...
If blizz can find a way to delay drops enough for another round of units or static D every race will have a better opportunity to both punish (pre-emptive or counter attack) and defend HB drops. I like the idea of needing the blue flame upg... this would lend itself to blue flame openers then getting the transform upgrade (which has almost been removed from the game)... but i think a compromise might be to take out the armory requirement...
There is no easy answer to the problem that is the hellbat, but HOTS is so fun because harras is so strong: mutas, oracles Medevac boost + WM or HB. Medevac boost instantly made every Tv MU more fun to play and watch and blizz will NOT change it. so try and find a solution to HB!
"Top Zergs" DO NOT MATTER if the strategy is creating problems for lower level players. Honestly people (and Blizzard) should get rid of the notion that "if Soulkey or Innovation can do X against super strong unit Y the game is fine". The game has to be playable AND BE FUN for all levels of play and thus balancing for progamers is seriously stupid.
Oh and the biggest problem is TvT, because two Terrans dropping each other is silly and boring to watch because neither will have the forces to defend and thus we will have a lot of roasted SCVs without any engagement at all ...
bla bla bla . So take away the booster from the medivac when they carry hellbaths, thors and thanks. they're to heavyfor the mvac to boost. For now they should test this, and then if the situation in tvt persists maybe change something else.
On June 13 2013 04:36 gavrila87 wrote: bla bla bla . So take away the booster from the medivac when they carry hellbaths, thors and thanks. they're to heavyfor the mvac to boost. For now they should test this, and then if the situation in tvt persists maybe change something else.
Ahh ... that is a smart solution, but it will take some convincing because the booster was one of the very few things which Terrans got in HotS. How do you justify a full price addon if your race doesnt really get much? Thats why they are not removing the silly stuff they added with the expansion (like the Mutalisk buffs to speed and regen for example) and instead add seriously silly "solutions" instead.
On June 13 2013 04:36 gavrila87 wrote: bla bla bla . So take away the booster from the medivac when they carry hellbaths, thors and thanks. they're to heavyfor the mvac to boost. For now they should test this, and then if the situation in tvt persists maybe change something else.
Such changes are imo way too random and needlessly complicate the game.
On June 13 2013 04:36 gavrila87 wrote: bla bla bla . So take away the booster from the medivac when they carry hellbaths, thors and thanks. they're to heavyfor the mvac to boost. For now they should test this, and then if the situation in tvt persists maybe change something else.
i like this idea over damage changes or build/research time changes
On June 13 2013 04:31 Rabiator wrote: ["Top Zergs" DO NOT MATTER if the strategy is creating problems for lower level players. Honestly people (and Blizzard) should get rid of the notion that "if Soulkey or Innovation can do X against super strong unit Y the game is fine". The game has to be playable AND BE FUN for all levels of play and thus balancing for progamers is seriously stupid.
Oh and the biggest problem is TvT, because two Terrans dropping each other is silly and boring to watch because neither will have the forces to defend and thus we will have a lot of roasted SCVs without any engagement at all ...
First it makes only sense to balance the game for top-level players. IMHO. If they start balancing for lower leagues (or 2v2, 3v3 for that matter) they can kiss e-sports goodbye. Secondly do we have any statistics hellbats are creating a balance problem at lower leagues? Not anecdotae, statistics. Do we?
I fully agree with the "silly and boring to watch" part and hope changes are coming. But mostly for the sake of viewability - if that's a word - and less for balance.
On June 13 2013 15:25 Orangered wrote: It doesnt make sense to remove boost in relation to cargo. Just give Hellbats and additional gas requirement and this is fixed
It makes sense to nerf hellbat drops when hellbat drops are seen as the problem. Your suggestion is to straight up nerf hellbats. Garbage post, man, seriously.
On June 13 2013 04:31 Rabiator wrote: ["Top Zergs" DO NOT MATTER if the strategy is creating problems for lower level players. Honestly people (and Blizzard) should get rid of the notion that "if Soulkey or Innovation can do X against super strong unit Y the game is fine". The game has to be playable AND BE FUN for all levels of play and thus balancing for progamers is seriously stupid.
Oh and the biggest problem is TvT, because two Terrans dropping each other is silly and boring to watch because neither will have the forces to defend and thus we will have a lot of roasted SCVs without any engagement at all ...
First it makes only sense to balance the game for top-level players. IMHO. If they start balancing for lower leagues (or 2v2, 3v3 for that matter) they can kiss e-sports goodbye. Secondly do we have any statistics hellbats are creating a balance problem at lower leagues? Not anecdotae, statistics. Do we?
I fully agree with the "silly and boring to watch" part and hope changes are coming. But mostly for the sake of viewability - if that's a word - and less for balance.
As gold/plat 40 apm toss player i may say that people at this level dont use hellbats at all. No drops, no mech play. All terrans plays MMM+vikings, sometimes use few mines, that`s all.
What annoys people at golden/plat level are strong toss allins executed from sheet of paper, if apear WM(while at this level people lack of multitasking and lost alot of units on random mines), vrays and muta ball play.
Oracle is dead at this level(everyone make 1 static defense per mineral line.
So summarizing at casual level hellbats are not a problem, people didnt discovered them yet.
On June 12 2013 19:47 TheBorg wrote: Hellbat drops right now are as strong as when BoxeR figured out Blue Flame Hellion-openings: there was virtually no risk to trying it and the reward could be an instant win.
The problem with Hellbat drops isn't that they occur but when they occur: the earliest possible time would be between 8 and 9 minutes (depending on the size of the map). If that could be delayed by a minute or two, then the defender would at least have the opportunity to set up some sort of defense; if he doesn't then that's his own fault.
So here's my proposed fix: Hellbats start out as pure Mechanical (so no Bio-Mech hybrid). Then, get rid of the Transformation Servos upgrade - that upgrade has never been used and will never be used in pro play - and instead, change it to Hellbat-healing (call it "Organic Operator" or something) which adds Biological to all Hellbats.
Like this, it gives the Terran a tactical choice that has real consequences: do I execute the drop as quickly as possible but run the risk of not doing the damage I need it to do? Or do I wait to research Hellbat-healing, so that if I get in I can do the damage that I need to do, but run the risk of not being able to get in anymore (albeit with a more smooth transition to Bio-Mech): High risk/reward Hellbat drops @ 8-9 minutes vs. safer Hellbat drops @ 10-11 minutes.
This idea is so... GOOD!!!! It would be fun if it benefits ground viking as well! (meh wouldn't happen)
Anyway, I think that is still early though. The point of nerf dmg I thought was an attempt to delay hellbat's effectiveness (not saying that is perfect solution)
And some minor point, if they remove transformantion upgrade, would it be better if we remove hellbat from factory? So the players can simply make hellions and transform them! (and potential for more mech units in LoV!)
On June 13 2013 04:36 gavrila87 wrote: bla bla bla . So take away the booster from the medivac when they carry hellbaths, thors and thanks. they're to heavyfor the mvac to boost. For now they should test this, and then if the situation in tvt persists maybe change something else.
This makes no sense... after all the hellbat is light, it cannot be heavy at the same time :D
On June 13 2013 03:40 Doc Brawler wrote: I agree that hellbat drops are a problem BUT only by like 40 seconds... top zergs (soulkey vs innovation) have shown u can shut down HBdrop and take 0 damage especially with overlord scout.. Toss has nexus cannon even phoenix openers (jangbi vs flash) if ur into that If terran does a FE then its a very tight line to get WM or turrets or vikes to completely shut down a fast double drop...
If blizz can find a way to delay drops enough for another round of units or static D every race will have a better opportunity to both punish (pre-emptive or counter attack) and defend HB drops. I like the idea of needing the blue flame upg... this would lend itself to blue flame openers then getting the transform upgrade (which has almost been removed from the game)... but i think a compromise might be to take out the armory requirement...
There is no easy answer to the problem that is the hellbat, but HOTS is so fun because harras is so strong: mutas, oracles Medevac boost + WM or HB. Medevac boost instantly made every Tv MU more fun to play and watch and blizz will NOT change it. so try and find a solution to HB!
"Top Zergs" DO NOT MATTER if the strategy is creating problems for lower level players. Honestly people (and Blizzard) should get rid of the notion that "if Soulkey or Innovation can do X against super strong unit Y the game is fine". The game has to be playable AND BE FUN for all levels of play and thus balancing for progamers is seriously stupid.
Oh and the biggest problem is TvT, because two Terrans dropping each other is silly and boring to watch because neither will have the forces to defend and thus we will have a lot of roasted SCVs without any engagement at all ...
Lets remove baneling splash then since Bronze scrubs cant split and its "ruining their fun" and they cant use marines because its "unplayable".
Balancing for anything but the highest level would be completely fucking retarded. Bad players can fix their problems by getting better. If you dont balance for the highest level of play when trying to make an esports title you are doing it very wrong.
If you want a game where blizzard focuses on "making it fun for all levels of play" you can go play World of Warcraft, where they have consistently dumbed the game down since the end of The Burning Crusade.
On June 13 2013 15:25 Orangered wrote: It doesnt make sense to remove boost in relation to cargo. Just give Hellbats and additional gas requirement and this is fixed
It makes sense to nerf hellbat drops when hellbat drops are seen as the problem. Your suggestion is to straight up nerf hellbats. Garbage post, man, seriously.
Please what? Hellbat drops are completly broken, like completly, there is literally no other way to open tvt than hellbat drops, that is so fundamentally broken that they have to nerf it. Now hellbats themselves are not entirely broken, they are just very poorly designed and just because drops are a bigger issue does not mean that hellbats themselves are fine. Now rather than Orangered you are the one with the garbage post here.
Balancing for anything but the highest level would be completely fucking retarded. Bad players can fix their problems by getting better. If you dont balance for the highest level of play when trying to make an esports title you are doing it very wrong.
If you want a game where blizzard focuses on "making it fun for all levels of play" you can go play World of Warcraft, where they have consistently dumbed the game down since the end of The Burning Crusade.
Cannot agree with you. Every sport should be accesible for every level. Should give fun and pleasure. Why? Because then people watch it. If people will not find pleasure of gaming on that casual level then it will be never wide popular and it will remind nerdy and not well sponsored. Look at football and let think what makes this sport so popular and why people want to watch it. Compare this now with some sport that require alot of skill and compare amount of fans and popularity in TV.
On June 13 2013 15:25 Orangered wrote: It doesnt make sense to remove boost in relation to cargo. Just give Hellbats and additional gas requirement and this is fixed
It makes sense to nerf hellbat drops when hellbat drops are seen as the problem. Your suggestion is to straight up nerf hellbats. Garbage post, man, seriously.
like they are gonna nerf the medivac speed. what else are they gonna nerf?
Balancing for anything but the highest level would be completely fucking retarded. Bad players can fix their problems by getting better. If you dont balance for the highest level of play when trying to make an esports title you are doing it very wrong.
If you want a game where blizzard focuses on "making it fun for all levels of play" you can go play World of Warcraft, where they have consistently dumbed the game down since the end of The Burning Crusade.
Cannot agree with you. Every sport should be accesible for every level. Should give fun and pleasure. Why? Because then people watch it. If people will not find pleasure of gaming on that casual level then it will be never wide popular and it will remind nerdy and not well sponsored. Look at football and let think what makes this sport so popular and why people want to watch it. Compare this now with some sport that require alot of skill and compare amount of fans and popularity in TV.
I think you completly don't understand the point here. If you would balance the game for the lowest level it would be completly imba on the highest level. On top of that if you loose any game before like diamond level there is a 99% chance you lost that because you messed something up hard and not because of imbalance. So there is no point balancing for lower levels as there are pretty much no games being lost on low levels due to imbalance.
Balancing for anything but the highest level would be completely fucking retarded. Bad players can fix their problems by getting better. If you dont balance for the highest level of play when trying to make an esports title you are doing it very wrong.
If you want a game where blizzard focuses on "making it fun for all levels of play" you can go play World of Warcraft, where they have consistently dumbed the game down since the end of The Burning Crusade.
Cannot agree with you. Every sport should be accesible for every level. Should give fun and pleasure. Why? Because then people watch it. If people will not find pleasure of gaming on that casual level then it will be never wide popular and it will remind nerdy and not well sponsored. Look at football and let think what makes this sport so popular and why people want to watch it. Compare this now with some sport that require alot of skill and compare amount of fans and popularity in TV.
American Football is all but accesible but remains one of the most popluar sports in the US.
Also looking at activity levels on Bnet in hots compared to WoL tells me that more people overall enjoy HoTS, and most of those people are horrible at the game. I dont think hellbat drops is that big of an issue when talking about these peoples enjoyment.
Also the game is developed to be an esports title, balancing for scrubs would ruin the competitive scene. Lower level players dont lose games because of imbalance, they lose because they fucked up in a 100 diffrent ways, balancing for that would be very dumb.
Balancing for anything but the highest level would be completely fucking retarded. Bad players can fix their problems by getting better. If you dont balance for the highest level of play when trying to make an esports title you are doing it very wrong.
If you want a game where blizzard focuses on "making it fun for all levels of play" you can go play World of Warcraft, where they have consistently dumbed the game down since the end of The Burning Crusade.
Cannot agree with you. Every sport should be accesible for every level. Should give fun and pleasure. Why? Because then people watch it. If people will not find pleasure of gaming on that casual level then it will be never wide popular and it will remind nerdy and not well sponsored. Look at football and let think what makes this sport so popular and why people want to watch it. Compare this now with some sport that require alot of skill and compare amount of fans and popularity in TV.
I hate to tell yuou this but he is actually right here
Balancing for anything but the highest level would be completely fucking retarded. Bad players can fix their problems by getting better. If you dont balance for the highest level of play when trying to make an esports title you are doing it very wrong.
If you want a game where blizzard focuses on "making it fun for all levels of play" you can go play World of Warcraft, where they have consistently dumbed the game down since the end of The Burning Crusade.
Cannot agree with you. Every sport should be accesible for every level. Should give fun and pleasure. Why? Because then people watch it. If people will not find pleasure of gaming on that casual level then it will be never wide popular and it will remind nerdy and not well sponsored. Look at football and let think what makes this sport so popular and why people want to watch it. Compare this now with some sport that require alot of skill and compare amount of fans and popularity in TV.
I think you completly don't understand the point here. If you would balance the game for the lowest level it would be completly imba on the highest level. On top of that if you loose any game before like diamond level there is a 99% chance you lost that because you messed something up hard and not because of imbalance. So there is no point balancing for lower levels as there are pretty much no games being lost on low levels due to imbalance.
My point its should be balanced by taking in account most of levels. Like in average hands such units give you standard posibilities but in pro gamer hands new possibilities apear. Then you face situations when casual player watch game(because he plays game, because it is fun for him at his level) and see that you have used X unit but doing alot more and he thinks "holly cow! i didnt know its possible, that crazy".
I think that statement "easy to learn, hard to master" is best. Like you can kick ball straight but Ronaldo is doing magic with ball.
Balancing for anything but the highest level would be completely fucking retarded. Bad players can fix their problems by getting better. If you dont balance for the highest level of play when trying to make an esports title you are doing it very wrong.
If you want a game where blizzard focuses on "making it fun for all levels of play" you can go play World of Warcraft, where they have consistently dumbed the game down since the end of The Burning Crusade.
Cannot agree with you. Every sport should be accesible for every level. Should give fun and pleasure. Why? Because then people watch it. If people will not find pleasure of gaming on that casual level then it will be never wide popular and it will remind nerdy and not well sponsored. Look at football and let think what makes this sport so popular and why people want to watch it. Compare this now with some sport that require alot of skill and compare amount of fans and popularity in TV.
I think you completly don't understand the point here. If you would balance the game for the lowest level it would be completly imba on the highest level. On top of that if you loose any game before like diamond level there is a 99% chance you lost that because you messed something up hard and not because of imbalance. So there is no point balancing for lower levels as there are pretty much no games being lost on low levels due to imbalance.
My point its should be balanced by taking in account most of levels. Like in average hands such units give you standard posibilities but in pro gamer hands new possibilities apear. Then you face situations when casual player watch game(because he plays game, because it is fun for him at his level) and see that you have used X unit but doing alot more and he thinks "holly cow! i didnt know its possible, that crazy".
I think that statement "easy to learn, hard to master" is best. Like you can kick ball straight but Ronaldo is doing magic with ball.
You cant take "most levels" into account because almost all of the problems in lower leauges are just there because of bad play. Blizzard should not dumb the game down because some people cant do things the top pros can.
If they had used that design philosophy when making sc2 we would have a game with the complexity of Tic tac toe.
Balancing for anything but the highest level would be completely fucking retarded. Bad players can fix their problems by getting better. If you dont balance for the highest level of play when trying to make an esports title you are doing it very wrong.
If you want a game where blizzard focuses on "making it fun for all levels of play" you can go play World of Warcraft, where they have consistently dumbed the game down since the end of The Burning Crusade.
Cannot agree with you. Every sport should be accesible for every level. Should give fun and pleasure. Why? Because then people watch it. If people will not find pleasure of gaming on that casual level then it will be never wide popular and it will remind nerdy and not well sponsored. Look at football and let think what makes this sport so popular and why people want to watch it. Compare this now with some sport that require alot of skill and compare amount of fans and popularity in TV.
American Football is all but accesible but remains one of the most popluar sports in the US.
Also looking at activity levels on Bnet in hots compared to WoL tells me that more people overall enjoy HoTS, and most of those people are horrible at the game. I dont think hellbat drops is that big of an issue when talking about these peoples enjoyment.
Also the game is developed to be an esports title, balancing for scrubs would ruin the competitive scene. Lower level players dont lose games because of imbalance, they lose because they fucked up in a 100 diffrent ways, balancing for that would be very dumb.
Agreed, American football is less accessible than almost every other sport. And just to add, it isn't one of the most popular sports here. It's actually _the_ most popular spectator sport here, by a massive margin.
You cant take "most levels" into account because almost all of the problems in lower leauges are just there because of bad play. Blizzard should not dumb the game down because some people cant do things the top pros can.
If they had used that design philosophy when making sc2 we would have a game with the complexity of Tic tac toe.
Its ok if you want get sophisticated tool to compete in narrow group of fans. But I doubt that such approach sc2 will make more popular between casuals players - spectators. So its matter if we want to have more or less spectators in sc2.
Anyway i think we have completly different way of thinking about that and its offtopic so maybe enough?
Balancing for anything but the highest level would be completely fucking retarded. Bad players can fix their problems by getting better. If you dont balance for the highest level of play when trying to make an esports title you are doing it very wrong.
If you want a game where blizzard focuses on "making it fun for all levels of play" you can go play World of Warcraft, where they have consistently dumbed the game down since the end of The Burning Crusade.
Cannot agree with you. Every sport should be accesible for every level. Should give fun and pleasure. Why? Because then people watch it. If people will not find pleasure of gaming on that casual level then it will be never wide popular and it will remind nerdy and not well sponsored. Look at football and let think what makes this sport so popular and why people want to watch it. Compare this now with some sport that require alot of skill and compare amount of fans and popularity in TV.
I think you completly don't understand the point here. If you would balance the game for the lowest level it would be completly imba on the highest level. On top of that if you loose any game before like diamond level there is a 99% chance you lost that because you messed something up hard and not because of imbalance. So there is no point balancing for lower levels as there are pretty much no games being lost on low levels due to imbalance.
My point its should be balanced by taking in account most of levels. Like in average hands such units give you standard posibilities but in pro gamer hands new possibilities apear. Then you face situations when casual player watch game(because he plays game, because it is fun for him at his level) and see that you have used X unit but doing alot more and he thinks "holly cow! i didnt know its possible, that crazy".
I think that statement "easy to learn, hard to master" is best. Like you can kick ball straight but Ronaldo is doing magic with ball.
You cant take "most levels" into account because almost all of the problems in lower leauges are just there because of bad play. Blizzard should not dumb the game down because some people cant do things the top pros can.
If they had used that design philosophy when making sc2 we would have a game with the complexity of Tic tac toe.
No offense but it's not like they didn't dumb it down a lot(auto mine, mbs/mus, smart casting etc. pp.), but lets not go down that road. I don't think blizz philosophie should be discussed as they went down the way of primarily focusing on the pro level anyways.
@xokati: Spectators =/= players, this isn't lol. The beauty of starcraft is that you don't need to play it to have fun watching it, and I'd much rather have a skillfull game with fewer active players than a super easy game with lots of player, especially since it shouldn't affect spectator numbers anyways.
Balancing for anything but the highest level would be completely fucking retarded. Bad players can fix their problems by getting better. If you dont balance for the highest level of play when trying to make an esports title you are doing it very wrong.
If you want a game where blizzard focuses on "making it fun for all levels of play" you can go play World of Warcraft, where they have consistently dumbed the game down since the end of The Burning Crusade.
Cannot agree with you. Every sport should be accesible for every level. Should give fun and pleasure. Why? Because then people watch it. If people will not find pleasure of gaming on that casual level then it will be never wide popular and it will remind nerdy and not well sponsored. Look at football and let think what makes this sport so popular and why people want to watch it. Compare this now with some sport that require alot of skill and compare amount of fans and popularity in TV.
I hate to tell yuou this but he is actually right here
Balancing for the scrubs will make the game boring on every level you would not increase the size of the goal ten times so it would be easier for the bad football players to score.
You cant take "most levels" into account because almost all of the problems in lower leauges are just there because of bad play. Blizzard should not dumb the game down because some people cant do things the top pros can.
If they had used that design philosophy when making sc2 we would have a game with the complexity of Tic tac toe.
Its ok if you want get sophisticated tool to compete in narrow group of fans. But I doubt that such approach sc2 will make more popular between casuals players - spectators. So its matter if we want to have more or less spectators in sc2.
Anyway i think we have completly different way of thinking about that and its offtopic so maybe enough?
The veiwership has been growing steadily, the current approach works.
Why do they have to do more dmg then a hellion? It still is a tankier version of the hellion plus if they change that hellions will play a bigger role to. Either that or remove the healing.
On June 13 2013 15:25 Orangered wrote: It doesnt make sense to remove boost in relation to cargo. Just give Hellbats and additional gas requirement and this is fixed
It makes sense to nerf hellbat drops when hellbat drops are seen as the problem. Your suggestion is to straight up nerf hellbats. Garbage post, man, seriously.
like they are gonna nerf the medivac speed. what else are they gonna nerf?
A few people have suggested nerfing hellbat drops by increasing the cargo size or disabling boost when carrying hellbats, etc.
On June 13 2013 15:25 Orangered wrote: It doesnt make sense to remove boost in relation to cargo. Just give Hellbats and additional gas requirement and this is fixed
It makes sense to nerf hellbat drops when hellbat drops are seen as the problem. Your suggestion is to straight up nerf hellbats. Garbage post, man, seriously.
Please what? Hellbat drops are completly broken, like completly, there is literally no other way to open tvt than hellbat drops, that is so fundamentally broken that they have to nerf it. Now hellbats themselves are not entirely broken, they are just very poorly designed and just because drops are a bigger issue does not mean that hellbats themselves are fine. Now rather than Orangered you are the one with the garbage post here.
Unless you have an agenda of a-moving all Terrans with mass chargelots, I don't see why you want to change the hellbats themselves. Your belief is that hellbats are broken. And yet, the overwhelming outcry from the community is towards the drops.
See the title of the thread: It specifically mentions hellbat drops. So you're going off topic.
I like the idea of having hellbats cargoed like thors are. But thats a design change to, everyone knows what blizzard thinks about that. You can have a hellbat taking up 5 spaces in medivacs instead of 4 also good.
On June 14 2013 00:57 Usernameffs wrote: I like the idea of having hellbats cargoed like thors are. But thats a design change to, everyone knows what blizzard thinks about that.
They already did increase the cargo size of hellbats because it was insane in TvT when you could drop 4 hellbats.
You cant take "most levels" into account because almost all of the problems in lower leauges are just there because of bad play. Blizzard should not dumb the game down because some people cant do things the top pros can.
If they had used that design philosophy when making sc2 we would have a game with the complexity of Tic tac toe.
Its ok if you want get sophisticated tool to compete in narrow group of fans. But I doubt that such approach sc2 will make more popular between casuals players - spectators. So its matter if we want to have more or less spectators in sc2.
Anyway i think we have completly different way of thinking about that and its offtopic so maybe enough?
The veiwership has been growing steadily, the current approach works.
I don't understand this argument you folks are having.
Blizzard has stated before that they work to maintain statistical balance at all levels of play. Take an explanation for the barracks before depot adjustment for example:
Q. There are opinions that the variety in choice of strategies for Terran have decreased due to the recent nerf A. There were a lot of strategies terrans could use before scouting their opponent. We were planning to decrease the number of possible strategies because we felt they were having a negative effect, and the reaper happened to be problematic in team games so we adjusted the balance with a focus on reapers. In the case of barracks before depot, there were a lot of games that ended before it was even scouted. It didn't happen very often on the pro level, but it was becoming a problem in lower tier play. The main focus is the pro level, but our ultimate goal is for players of all levels to be able to play a fair and balanced game. Barracks first builds were too strong in that regard and created a lot of problems in low level play, which is why we made the adjustments.
On June 14 2013 00:57 Usernameffs wrote: I like the idea of having hellbats cargoed like thors are. But thats a design change to, everyone knows what blizzard thinks about that.
They already did increase the cargo size of hellbats because it was insane in TvT when you could drop 4 hellbats.
Iknow but i was thinking they would carry them like thors to.
You cant take "most levels" into account because almost all of the problems in lower leauges are just there because of bad play. Blizzard should not dumb the game down because some people cant do things the top pros can.
If they had used that design philosophy when making sc2 we would have a game with the complexity of Tic tac toe.
Its ok if you want get sophisticated tool to compete in narrow group of fans. But I doubt that such approach sc2 will make more popular between casuals players - spectators. So its matter if we want to have more or less spectators in sc2.
Anyway i think we have completly different way of thinking about that and its offtopic so maybe enough?
The veiwership has been growing steadily, the current approach works.
I don't understand this argument you folks are having.
Blizzard has stated before that they work to maintain statistical balance at all levels of play. Take an explanation for the barracks before depot adjustment for example:
Q. There are opinions that the variety in choice of strategies for Terran have decreased due to the recent nerf A. There were a lot of strategies terrans could use before scouting their opponent. We were planning to decrease the number of possible strategies because we felt they were having a negative effect, and the reaper happened to be problematic in team games so we adjusted the balance with a focus on reapers. In the case of barracks before depot, there were a lot of games that ended before it was even scouted. It didn't happen very often on the pro level, but it was becoming a problem in lower tier play. The main focus is the pro level, but our ultimate goal is for players of all levels to be able to play a fair and balanced game. Barracks first builds were too strong in that regard and created a lot of problems in low level play, which is why we made the adjustments.
Yes, but balancing at all levels is very tricky when you have such a whiny community. I think that I was most frustrated with the game when I played WoL at my personal best (solid EU diamond). I was so frustrated about losing my army to those op storms, op collosi, op banes, op zerglings pouncing on my army out of nowhere.
Then I switched to random and that was the moment, when I found out that my HTs are EMPed before they storm, my collosi are sniped before they do anything and that my banelings are kited, killed or connect inefficiently vs well-split bio.
I feel that very few players try to play the other races at their "lower" level and go for the insta-QQ instead.
Weird. Hellbat drops aren't THAT good. They have a massive damage potential, but only against players who are utterly unprepared to defend against them or don't take measures to minimize damage. The same thing can be said for 4 hellions being dropped - the potential for damage is pretty much the same, if not more.
If the problem is the cost of the risk (300 min. 100g) vs the damage potential then perhaps it would be wise to add a gas cost to each hellbat (125min 25g a pop should do it), so that it actually makes sense to research the transformation ability. This would soften the economic impact of drops by pushing the timing later in the early game and requiring more damage to be done by the dropping player.
Maybe if hellbats weren't biological units, capable of being healed by the same medivac that drops them, they would be less cost efficient without unnecessary nerfs. Perhaps some sort of change to the attack animation would help (since killing everything around the unit appears to be a side effect of having a circular attack).
TvT is a weird matchup to bring up (as mirrors usually are) considering both players are capable of making hellbats. I'd have thought that TvP was more of an issue, because Protoss has to simultaneously prepare for widowmines or hellbats, and not preparing for widowmines can be much wose. Defending against hellbats in TvZ is simple, so, no issue there.
EDIT: Kind of a dumb question, but are hellbats biological for the sole purpose of being countered by archons? This is the only explanation that I can come up with other than an intended synergy with medivacs (which seems really stupid for a mechanical unit to have).
On June 14 2013 00:47 Usernameffs wrote: Why do they have to do more dmg then a hellion? It still is a tankier version of the hellion plus if they change that hellions will play a bigger role to. Either that or remove the healing.
They do more damage because their range is shit, they're slow, and can be kited by everything. That's how they ended up being dropped on top of things in the first place - they have trouble being useful when used any other way because they're so shit.
On June 14 2013 00:57 Usernameffs wrote: I like the idea of having hellbats cargoed like thors are. But thats a design change to, everyone knows what blizzard thinks about that. You can have a hellbat taking up 5 spaces in medivacs instead of 4 also good.
You want a 100 mineral 2 supply unit to take up 8 cargo space? That's honestly the silliest balance change I've ever read on team liquid and I've read quite a few.
On June 14 2013 00:57 Usernameffs wrote: I like the idea of having hellbats cargoed like thors are. But thats a design change to, everyone knows what blizzard thinks about that. You can have a hellbat taking up 5 spaces in medivacs instead of 4 also good.
You want a 100 mineral 2 supply unit to take up 8 cargo space? That's honestly the silliest balance change I've ever read on team liquid and I've read quite a few.
I thought it was cute when I read it too, but don't be surprised if this is the type of change Blizzard ends up making. They can come up with some pretty stupid shit, like mechanical hellions transforming into biological hellbats. If we have to simply accept that, perhaps we're willing to accept hellbats that drop like thorships. Completely idiotic, but still a possibility that exists.
Talking about realism is not best idea in sc2. Only one thing is important - gameplay. In every other aproach we will start thinking why marines are able to shoot down carrier(that is size of small city) that is 500meter above them.
At the end you can just name all modifiers as modifier1, modifier2... or rename them to bio, armor, small, big, psionic, transform... etc.
You cant take "most levels" into account because almost all of the problems in lower leauges are just there because of bad play. Blizzard should not dumb the game down because some people cant do things the top pros can.
If they had used that design philosophy when making sc2 we would have a game with the complexity of Tic tac toe.
Its ok if you want get sophisticated tool to compete in narrow group of fans. But I doubt that such approach sc2 will make more popular between casuals players - spectators. So its matter if we want to have more or less spectators in sc2.
Anyway i think we have completly different way of thinking about that and its offtopic so maybe enough?
The veiwership has been growing steadily, the current approach works.
I don't understand this argument you folks are having.
Blizzard has stated before that they work to maintain statistical balance at all levels of play. Take an explanation for the barracks before depot adjustment for example:
Q. There are opinions that the variety in choice of strategies for Terran have decreased due to the recent nerf A. There were a lot of strategies terrans could use before scouting their opponent. We were planning to decrease the number of possible strategies because we felt they were having a negative effect, and the reaper happened to be problematic in team games so we adjusted the balance with a focus on reapers. In the case of barracks before depot, there were a lot of games that ended before it was even scouted. It didn't happen very often on the pro level, but it was becoming a problem in lower tier play. The main focus is the pro level, but our ultimate goal is for players of all levels to be able to play a fair and balanced game. Barracks first builds were too strong in that regard and created a lot of problems in low level play, which is why we made the adjustments.
I dont know what you are getting from that quote but what I read is that balance for pros is the #1 priority and the if it happens to balance out for the newbies as well that is a great bonus. The supply depo before rax change was made 4 months or so after the game was released as I recall and it was to deal with 5rax reaper which was a problem at the pro levels.
dont understand why people say mech tvp is shit. i win most my games with it. ntm dudes like strelok use it to some extent pretty well. even mkp used it in gstl before and got some wins. not saying its the best, but its definitely not the worst, and definitely viable
Balancing for anything but the highest level would be completely fucking retarded. Bad players can fix their problems by getting better. If you dont balance for the highest level of play when trying to make an esports title you are doing it very wrong.
If you want a game where blizzard focuses on "making it fun for all levels of play" you can go play World of Warcraft, where they have consistently dumbed the game down since the end of The Burning Crusade.
Cannot agree with you. Every sport should be accesible for every level. Should give fun and pleasure. Why? Because then people watch it. If people will not find pleasure of gaming on that casual level then it will be never wide popular and it will remind nerdy and not well sponsored. Look at football and let think what makes this sport so popular and why people want to watch it. Compare this now with some sport that require alot of skill and compare amount of fans and popularity in TV.
I hate to tell yuou this but he is actually right here
So he's using a sports metaphor here, and you're saying he's right? Sports are very similar to SC2, as both requires skill, dedication, perserverance, practice and strategy. However there is one thing that football/american football doesn't have: balance. We are having a balance discussion here. Since there are three separate races, there is a balance discussion. In football,you aren't going to lose the quarterback because the position is too "OP" (well think about it, he gets to throw the ball, run the ball, do pretty much everything that's allowed with the ball). The coaches and players are expected to learn to play against these established rules from a young level. Futhermore, Middle school football teams have linemen, even though it seems pointless because a single big kid can just be "OP" and destroy the other team. This doesn't we we "ban" linemen in Middle School football. Stop enforcing balance on lower levels, and let the players learn to win. Practice to win vs just winning cz the game is easy are different feelings of accomplishment.
On June 11 2013 19:15 Ghanburighan wrote: Note that David Kim did not actually say that they will do anything. And I like this. I do not see a massive problem with hellbats, not even in TvT. This is because the days when Fantasy could hellbat drop all over the place are gone, and smart players know how to defend against them, it's just that it's difficult to do.
I like the fact that just dropping hellbats does nearly nothing when the defender pulls probes. It's only when someone like Innovation does it against a lesser opponent that they do massive damage. And that's what we want from harassment: a good skill-based scale of damage. In the end, TvT is currently incredibly technical with constant multi-harass and multi-defense. It's great and awe-inspiring to watch (sorry pro's if you don't like playing it).
As other's have said, TvX is harass-based, while ZvX and PvX are a lot more stale. Instead of removing the harass-based play, we should improve the harass-potential of the other races. Although, P still has unexplored harass-options which only Rain seems to utilize at the moment.
It doesnt matter that he did not say anything about doing anything ... because they dont have to do anything even if he said something.
The important part here is that the community says something ... quite a lot ... which should be a big warning sign to Browder and Kim that things arent as they should be.
The fact that the community complains about something says Nothing about real problems. This community is whiny as anything. Remember when HOTS came out and everyone and their mother bitched about ZvT being impossible, and that T will win every tournament. Well, Zerg ended up taking MLG, Dreamhack and the GSL, i.e., the early premier tournaments. T has won IEM (where no Korean Z showed up), WCS Europe (hello Mvp) and WCS 1 (hello Innovation). And the win rates at the top are very much decent.
I repeat, this community and this thread complains way too much. Look for facts, not public perception of affairs.
You sound very biased The tournament a zerg won (MLG) One Zerg of all zergs could compete versus the terrans, the rest of the zergs HAD ZERO CHANCE!
It was Life that could compete, and he did WIN, but damn did he fight like hell versus the terrans he met, jesus (hello life)
I repeat, One zerg was in top8 at mlg
There were only 2 korean zerg in the tourney. the game was still new, and zerg was not nearly as powerful at first since people had to actually start using strategies that didnt involve the infestor. so if anything its not a big surprise that only 1 z made it to the top 8. if you look at the top 8, they were all korean. ntm, gsl code s a z won that too. the other zergs had zero chance not because z is up, but because the players just werent as good as the other crazy amazing great koreans that were in it. i wouldve been really surprised to see players like goswser, suppy, ret, killer, bly, even sen or stephano in the round of 8 with other players like flash, innovation, parting, rain, mc and bomber in this tourney. no offense to these players, they are definitely good, but the competition proved to be to strong. i would say leenock couldve made it, but unfortunately he faced innovation in the rd of 16. innovation is starting to seem like the top player right now, seeing as he has done things like only dropping 3 maps on the way to the code s finals. so trying to say because only 1 zerg made it to the round of 8 in the mlg makes zerg look weak is a stupid argument and wouldve looked way different say if we had players like roro, curious, symbol or soulkey. kinda funny actually there were little amounts of kespa players in it, and if there were im sure it wouldve been whole different story cause the kespa players are actually starting to show how great they really are.
I repeat, your argument is shit.
EDIT: ntm all the t were korean, except thorzain. and he got knocked out in the rd of 32 by killer.
On June 14 2013 00:57 Usernameffs wrote: I like the idea of having hellbats cargoed like thors are. But thats a design change to, everyone knows what blizzard thinks about that. You can have a hellbat taking up 5 spaces in medivacs instead of 4 also good.
You want a 100 mineral 2 supply unit to take up 8 cargo space? That's honestly the silliest balance change I've ever read on team liquid and I've read quite a few.
I thought it was cute when I read it too, but don't be surprised if this is the type of change Blizzard ends up making. They can come up with some pretty stupid shit, like mechanical hellions transforming into biological hellbats. If we have to simply accept that, perhaps we're willing to accept hellbats that drop like thorships. Completely idiotic, but still a possibility that exists.
On June 14 2013 00:57 Usernameffs wrote: I like the idea of having hellbats cargoed like thors are. But thats a design change to, everyone knows what blizzard thinks about that. You can have a hellbat taking up 5 spaces in medivacs instead of 4 also good.
You want a 100 mineral 2 supply unit to take up 8 cargo space? That's honestly the silliest balance change I've ever read on team liquid and I've read quite a few.
Is it silly because you would rather see hellbats on the ground nerfed because you can't a-move lings/zealots anymore?
Cargo space has nothing to do with cost. They went from 4 hellbats to 2 hellbats per medivac (with no change to the cost), and did you have a problem with that? Of course not. I didn't see an outcry from community that 100 mineral 2 supply unit suddenly took up 100% more cargo space - it was welcomed in fact.
It's ok for your 100 a-moving mineral unit to completely shut down the other races mineral units?
The hellbat is just overtuned I'm sorry, it should need upgrades to shut down 3/3 lings zealots, right now you can have 3/3/3 zealots vs 0/0 hellbats w/o medivac support and you're still getting rolled.
The hellbat is a very simple unit, tanky, slow, lots of damage. It actually works well if tuned correctly. The only thing that would make this unit overpowered is not its initial design, but if it had the most mobility of nearly any unit in the game. Medivac boost gives the hellbat that advantage.
Lots of terran units do ridiculous damage, but they all (should) have counters. The marine does tons of damage and is ranged, but it is very fragile. The hellbat's main downside needs to stay its downside the whole game, being slow and kiteable.
Blizzard has done good so far, taking great care to change units little by little. It's obvious to most the hellbat needs changed, but how to do it without butchering the unit out of every matchup... is probably like quite a few have suggested:
Remove the ability for medivacs to boost when carrying heavy mech units such as hellbats and thors.
Harass should require some risk from the attacker, hellbat drops are already cheap, require little micro, and usually cause damage, whether probe kills or lost mining time.
Listening to the latest Meta episode, Select, Illusion and theognis agreed that early Hellbat harassment would fade away with the Infernal Pre igniter change. And that's the reasoning for it. More investment and pushing it later in the game. Let's not forget that, excluding Hellbats, Terran has the most early harassment options like Widow Mines, Hellions, Banshees and Marines. So I agree with the change because Hellbat drops and Hellbats in general become more manageble outside the early game.
On June 14 2013 00:57 Usernameffs wrote: I like the idea of having hellbats cargoed like thors are. But thats a design change to, everyone knows what blizzard thinks about that. You can have a hellbat taking up 5 spaces in medivacs instead of 4 also good.
You want a 100 mineral 2 supply unit to take up 8 cargo space? That's honestly the silliest balance change I've ever read on team liquid and I've read quite a few.
I thought it was cute when I read it too, but don't be surprised if this is the type of change Blizzard ends up making. They can come up with some pretty stupid shit, like mechanical hellions transforming into biological hellbats. If we have to simply accept that, perhaps we're willing to accept hellbats that drop like thorships. Completely idiotic, but still a possibility that exists.
They already said what they are looking to change... reduce the initial damage through the infernal igniter upgrade and/or fix the widow that terrans have where opponents are unable to have reasonable defenses ready. And that does not at all seem "stupid".
On June 14 2013 10:08 Shiger wrote: Listening to the latest Meta episode, Select, Illusion and theognis agreed that early Hellbat harassment would fade away with the Infernal Pre igniter change. And that's the reasoning for it. More investment and pushing it later in the game. Let's not forget that, excluding Hellbats, Terran has the most early harassment options like Widow Mines, Hellions, Banshees and Marines. So I agree with the change because Hellbat drops and Hellbats in general become more manageble outside the early game.
Sorry I wasn't going to get into this conversation but when you say things like, "Let's not forget that, excluding Hellbats, Terran has the most early harassment options like Widow Mines, Hellions, Banshees and Marines." I cant help but laugh. This isn't WoL anymore! Maybe you missed the fact early Banshee against Toss is utterly worthless early game with MSC and the fact you don't need a Evo Chamber to put up spores against Widow Mines and Banshee harassement. You might as well say "lets not forget Terran has the most all-in options." Any monkey can pull workers away for a WM drop. The only thing messing up this game is TvT and the medic boost with the Hellbats. Take the speed out for mech loads and I think the problem would be solved. The "nerf stick" comes way to fast for Terran; especially, when you have Zergs still dominating at the high level. It is such a double standard with Blizzard when they hear the community whine - B/L infestor - everyone agreed was OP but they only acknolwedged it 8 months later when WoL was coming to an end. Versus one month of Hellbat drops and "Opps, I guess we need to nerf." We all know Blizzard hates admit to mistakes so if they decide to fuck Hellbats up like this, it is unlikely they will never roll it back (just like transformation).
On June 14 2013 09:41 Jevity wrote: The hellbat is a very simple unit, tanky, slow, lots of damage. It actually works well if tuned correctly. The only thing that would make this unit overpowered is not its initial design, but if it had the most mobility of nearly any unit in the game. Medivac boost gives the hellbat that advantage.
Lots of terran units do ridiculous damage, but they all (should) have counters. The marine does tons of damage and is ranged, but it is very fragile. The hellbat's main downside needs to stay its downside the whole game, being slow and kiteable.
Blizzard has done good so far, taking great care to change units little by little. It's obvious to most the hellbat needs changed, but how to do it without butchering the unit out of every matchup... is probably like quite a few have suggested:
Remove the ability for medivacs to boost when carrying heavy mech units such as hellbats and thors.
Harass should require some risk from the attacker, hellbat drops are already cheap, require little micro, and usually cause damage, whether probe kills or lost mining time.
Couldn't agree with you more. Stops the mobility of Hellbats and makes it more risky to drop, while also leaving mech timings untouched.
On June 14 2013 09:41 Jevity wrote: The hellbat is a very simple unit, tanky, slow, lots of damage. It actually works well if tuned correctly. The only thing that would make this unit overpowered is not its initial design, but if it had the most mobility of nearly any unit in the game. Medivac boost gives the hellbat that advantage.
Lots of terran units do ridiculous damage, but they all (should) have counters. The marine does tons of damage and is ranged, but it is very fragile. The hellbat's main downside needs to stay its downside the whole game, being slow and kiteable.
Blizzard has done good so far, taking great care to change units little by little. It's obvious to most the hellbat needs changed, but how to do it without butchering the unit out of every matchup... is probably like quite a few have suggested:
Remove the ability for medivacs to boost when carrying heavy mech units such as hellbats and thors.
Harass should require some risk from the attacker, hellbat drops are already cheap, require little micro, and usually cause damage, whether probe kills or lost mining time.
Nice post, very intelligent. I like your suggestion
On June 14 2013 09:41 Jevity wrote: The hellbat is a very simple unit, tanky, slow, lots of damage. It actually works well if tuned correctly. The only thing that would make this unit overpowered is not its initial design, but if it had the most mobility of nearly any unit in the game. Medivac boost gives the hellbat that advantage.
Lots of terran units do ridiculous damage, but they all (should) have counters. The marine does tons of damage and is ranged, but it is very fragile. The hellbat's main downside needs to stay its downside the whole game, being slow and kiteable.
Blizzard has done good so far, taking great care to change units little by little. It's obvious to most the hellbat needs changed, but how to do it without butchering the unit out of every matchup... is probably like quite a few have suggested:
Remove the ability for medivacs to boost when carrying heavy mech units such as hellbats and thors.
Harass should require some risk from the attacker, hellbat drops are already cheap, require little micro, and usually cause damage, whether probe kills or lost mining time.
Yep ...
There is a (pen-and-paper) roleplaying game called "Champions" where you can buy your abilities with points and can get extra points for taking disadvantages (like weakness to Kryptonite or so on) and they have a "core rule" for judging the point value of such a disadvantage: "A disadvantage which isnt really a disadvantage isnt a disadvantage." You get no points for "weakness to Kryptonite" if there is hardly any of the stuff around and the medivac is too easy to get to neutralize the "slow movement disadvantage". Adding the "is healed by the Medivac" on top of that really is the icing on the cake which makes the Hellbat really powerful.
I hope Blizzard will learn to design better units, but then they havent shown any promise of that with HotS yet AND they fail to look into the "critical numbers" and "deathball" problems too. Things really look grim.
Hellbats drops give you 100% benefit. Even when they will make 0 damage potential lose force you to pull back workers till drop is cleared. Even 10-15 sec of mining time is more than drop cost(minerals/cost, i calculate that medivac may escape, onlt 200 minerals are sacriviced) and this thing is buying terrran time, keep enemy in base, allow save expand. And potential 2-3 base drops ( just point every dropship drop location in each base and shift click escape route after drop, then at the same time use burners) give high chance that in one or more mineral lines enemy will not be able to pull back probes(3 separate locations, alot of multitasking, terran may even make little push 5 seconds before dropships will be spoted on front line and pull back). Then lost will be alot higher.
On June 14 2013 00:57 Usernameffs wrote: I like the idea of having hellbats cargoed like thors are. But thats a design change to, everyone knows what blizzard thinks about that. You can have a hellbat taking up 5 spaces in medivacs instead of 4 also good.
You want a 100 mineral 2 supply unit to take up 8 cargo space? That's honestly the silliest balance change I've ever read on team liquid and I've read quite a few.
Is it silly because you would rather see hellbats on the ground nerfed because you can't a-move lings/zealots anymore?
Cargo space has nothing to do with cost. They went from 4 hellbats to 2 hellbats per medivac (with no change to the cost), and did you have a problem with that? Of course not. I didn't see an outcry from community that 100 mineral 2 supply unit suddenly took up 100% more cargo space - it was welcomed in fact.
?? There was at least some outcry from the community (several threads on reddit complaining about confusing rules, a lot of posts on TL, discussion on shows like SotG, ItG). And cargo space has to do with cost, or at least supply, since just about all units require just as much cargo space as their rounded up supply, with only a few exceptions. And I did have a problem with the initial cargo change. And your assumption that I'm upset that I can't a-move zerglings anymore is just a personal attack.
On June 14 2013 05:56 plogamer wrote: Is it silly because you would rather see hellbats on the ground nerfed because you can't a-move lings/zealots anymore?
You never could amove zerglings against Terran, because no matter what composition he uses, if it is any good it rapes zerglings - both mineral dump units PREhellbat (marines and hellions) raped zerglings already.
On June 14 2013 06:09 sibs wrote: It's ok for your 100 a-moving mineral unit to completely shut down the other races mineral units?
The hellbat is just overtuned I'm sorry, it should need upgrades to shut down 3/3 lings zealots, right now you can have 3/3/3 zealots vs 0/0 hellbats w/o medivac support and you're still getting rolled.
Why do you call it a 100 a-moving mineral unit, when that's exactly what zealots are but worse?
I can't even begin to count the games I've lost mech TvP since he kills all my hellbats then just warps in 20 zealots and kills the entire rest of my army.
On June 14 2013 16:20 xokati wrote: Hellbats drops give you 100% benefit. Even when they will make 0 damage potential lose force you to pull back workers till drop is cleared. Even 10-15 sec of mining time is more than drop cost(minerals/cost, i calculate that medivac may escape, onlt 200 minerals are sacriviced) and this thing is buying terrran time, keep enemy in base, allow save expand. And potential 2-3 base drops ( just point every dropship drop location in each base and shift click escape route after drop, then at the same time use burners) give high chance that in one or more mineral lines enemy will not be able to pull back probes(3 separate locations, alot of multitasking, terran may even make little push 5 seconds before dropships will be spoted on front line and pull back). Then lost will be alot higher.
Early game the cost is much higher, since that fast armory, quick hellbats, medivac, etc, all means you have less income and/or less tech. So no if you only force some probes being pulled then it is not a win for the terran. Later in the game probe pulls generally shouldn't be required.
Also everyone who isn't a pro won't be able to micro three hellbat drops at the same time. And unmicro'd hellbat drops don't do damage past the early game. (At least not if the toss bothered to make at least one cannon).
But anyway, if as your describe hellbat drops are indeed so terribly OP, and I think it would be really dubious if you say Terran as a race is OP, then that means that to keep Terran balanced you need to boost Terran in other areas: So which boosts do you propose?
Wow, that was such bad play by alive :O It was basically alive clumping all his marines and SCVs at one spot and not attacking until the hellbats were dropped out, while he could have just targeted medivacs. And then, when innovation was amoving 4hellbats up the ramp, he could have just targetfired at least 2 of them with low hitpoints... It was like maximum fuck up by alive...
This example illustrates the difference between an attack that can outright win games and an attack where the results would vary based on actual gameplay*. The Hellbat drop without healing shows the attack can still be cost efficient and that the defense can be done without a larger investment than the opponent's.
Issues with mid and late game balance issues can be addressed after we see the meta-shift from non-bio Hellbats. This change should not completely end Hellbat drops but they would need to be more hit-and-run than stay-and-kill.
Even if additional changes to the game would be needed I think most players, including Terrans, would simply like the design and play better with the biological tag removed from Hellbats.
*There is no micro on either side to establish a baseline and no upgrades on either side to simulate early game scenarios. The attack is 300 min + 100 vespene versus a defense of 300 min + 75 vespene.
(hope no one minds me double posting this to the Hellbat thread and the Balance thread)
This example illustrates the difference between an attack that can outright win games and an attack where the results would vary based on actual gameplay*. The Hellbat drop without healing shows the attack can still be cost efficient and that the defense can be done without a larger investment than the opponent's.
Issues with mid and late game balance issues can be addressed after we see the meta-shift from non-bio Hellbats. This change should not completely end Hellbat drops but they would need to be more hit-and-run than stay-and-kill.
Even if additional changes to the game would be needed I think most players, including Terrans, would simply like the design and play better with the biological tag removed from Hellbats.
*There is no micro on either side to establish a baseline and no upgrades on either side to simulate early game scenarios. The attack is 300 min + 100 vespene versus a defense of 300 min + 75 vespene.
(hope no one minds me double posting this to the Hellbat thread and the Balance thread)
That would all be fine with me, and for those that still want Hellbats to be biological, make Transformation Servos also give that status (it would be some kind of tradeoff against Archons, damage taken vs healing taken, and it would also give ghosts something to do if snipe did 45 damage to non-massive).
P.S. Oh yeah, and it would make that research actually relevant.
Summary of the best solutions I've seen: 1) Mandatory Transformational Servos (my favorite) 2) Tie in damage with Infernal Preignitor 3) Remove Bio tag 4) Tech Lab requirement
I'm a fan of 1 and 2. Not a complete damage nerf, but maybe a -5 base +10 upgrade damage or something to that effect, making sure that they stay viable in the late game or even see more effective use as a late game harassment tool after proper defenses have been erected.
In all honesty, when they first revealed the unit pre-beta, I thought that you would have to build hellions first out of a factory and then transform them. I was actually legitimately surprised to find out that they are a completely separate unit out of the Factory.
I'm a zerg player, and quite frankly I'd love to see the bio tag removed (entirely because I'm just evil that way), but I don't see that as being a major factor in why they feel a little unbalanced. Every matchup has to deal with zoning medivacs/air/casters, and I feel that the skill of the player really determines the success in that regard. I used to struggle quite badly against it, but a few mutas or corruptors can deal with them pretty well. I saw someone neural parasite Thors and use them to snipe medivacs in one game, got a chuckle out of it. There's options.
Tech lab requirement would slow down production early game, but really wouldn't be a sensible solution since you could just get servos later on and double pump hellions instead - the mechanic behind that would be totally and completely senseless and broken.
TL;DR I recommend removing the hellbat from factory production, so that terran must build hellions and get servos upgrade to get hellbats, and create a balanced tie-in of damage into the infernal preignitor upgrade.
On June 14 2013 16:20 xokati wrote: Hellbats drops give you 100% benefit. Even when they will make 0 damage potential lose force you to pull back workers till drop is cleared. Even 10-15 sec of mining time is more than drop cost(minerals/cost, i calculate that medivac may escape, onlt 200 minerals are sacriviced) and this thing is buying terrran time, keep enemy in base, allow save expand. And potential 2-3 base drops ( just point every dropship drop location in each base and shift click escape route after drop, then at the same time use burners) give high chance that in one or more mineral lines enemy will not be able to pull back probes(3 separate locations, alot of multitasking, terran may even make little push 5 seconds before dropships will be spoted on front line and pull back). Then lost will be alot higher.
Early game the cost is much higher, since that fast armory, quick hellbats, medivac, etc, all means you have less income and/or less tech. So no if you only force some probes being pulled then it is not a win for the terran. Later in the game probe pulls generally shouldn't be required.
Also everyone who isn't a pro won't be able to micro three hellbat drops at the same time. And unmicro'd hellbat drops don't do damage past the early game. (At least not if the toss bothered to make at least one cannon).
But anyway, if as your describe hellbat drops are indeed so terribly OP, and I think it would be really dubious if you say Terran as a race is OP, then that means that to keep Terran balanced you need to boost Terran in other areas: So which boosts do you propose?
You make a good point in most cases, except your last sentence. Just because a portion of terran's army(Hellbats) is OP, doesn't mean some other piece of terran's army cannot be OP. An OP race can have multiple OP units instead of a single OP unit. (Disclaimer: Terran's well balanced, this is a Protoss talking here)
You don't say too easy to execute. It is this point that dear David seems to repeatedly miss. For example when we had the patch zergs. They need to understand that if something is much easier to execute for the offensive player than it is for the defending player to defend it then it is overpowered (except in mirrors ofc). It should take as much skill to do a successful attack as it does to make a successful defence. Otherwise, one player or the other is gaining an advantage based simply on the mechanics of the game i.e. imbalance. Please note, this is not the same as if you could have defended, but, you can't as you have the wrong units. That is called composition and you could have held the attack if you scouted properly and changed compositions.
You'll never have equal balance of difficulty so by default, I think attacking should actually be slightly easier than defending. If defending is easier nobody ever attacks and the game becomes boring as fuck, simple as that. See WoL Zerg, precisely.
Wow, that was such bad play by alive :O It was basically alive clumping all his marines and SCVs at one spot and not attacking until the hellbats were dropped out, while he could have just targeted medivacs. And then, when innovation was amoving 4hellbats up the ramp, he could have just targetfired at least 2 of them with low hitpoints... It was like maximum fuck up by alive...
I pretty much felt like none of these plays were that good honestly... it was more of the other guy screwing up rather than someone playing really fantastic.
On June 15 2013 07:22 liatis wrote: You don't say too easy to execute. It is this point that dear David seems to repeatedly miss. For example when we had the patch zergs. They need to understand that if something is much easier to execute for the offensive player than it is for the defending player to defend it then it is overpowered (except in mirrors ofc). It should take as much skill to do a successful attack as it does to make a successful defence. Otherwise, one player or the other is gaining an advantage based simply on the mechanics of the game i.e. imbalance. Please note, this is not the same as if you could have defended, but, you can't as you have the wrong units. That is called composition and you could have held the attack if you scouted properly and changed compositions.
It already is easy to defend against hellbat drops. 1st: hellbats are slow, medivacs mitigate that with afterburners 2nd: hellbats have 2 range, medivacs mitigate that with pick-and-drop micro 3rd: hellbats are healed by medivacs
Ergo, destroy the medivacs and you've already won half the battle. TvT has no excuse really to lose to mass hellbat drops, such as alive's game, just 3 Vikings and some marines could two shot every medivac.
On June 15 2013 07:22 liatis wrote: You don't say too easy to execute. It is this point that dear David seems to repeatedly miss. For example when we had the patch zergs. They need to understand that if something is much easier to execute for the offensive player than it is for the defending player to defend it then it is overpowered (except in mirrors ofc). It should take as much skill to do a successful attack as it does to make a successful defence. Otherwise, one player or the other is gaining an advantage based simply on the mechanics of the game i.e. imbalance. Please note, this is not the same as if you could have defended, but, you can't as you have the wrong units. That is called composition and you could have held the attack if you scouted properly and changed compositions.
It already is easy to defend against hellbat drops. 1st: hellbats are slow, medivacs mitigate that with afterburners 2nd: hellbats have 2 range, medivacs mitigate that with pick-and-drop micro 3rd: hellbats are healed by medivacs
Ergo, destroy the medivacs and you've already won half the battle. TvT has no excuse really to lose to mass hellbat drops, such as alive's game, just 3 Vikings and some marines could two shot every medivac.
That should be ridiculously easy for Protoss ... you just need maybe 2 Phoenix for the job to either kill the Medivac directly or lift the Hellbats until your workers are safe and some Stalkers arrive. Spore Crawlers are pretty cheap too and yet no one builds them ... at least they didnt build them until now, but since Banshee-cloak got cheaper people will need that detection and anti-air anyways.
I have seen some people's suggestion to modify the transformation upgrade. I personally think it is really weird to have current transformantion research done because it has little impact on the games (4 seconds to transform also makes it harder to be use)
I meant, "why would you research if you can build them?" Don't you guys think they really should look into this upgrade? Thoughts?
On June 15 2013 14:52 SsDrKosS wrote: I have seen some people's suggestion to modify the transformation upgrade. I personally think it is really weird to have current transformantion research done because it has little impact on the games (4 seconds to transform also makes it harder to be use)
I meant, "why would you research if you can build them?" Don't you guys think they really should look into this upgrade? Thoughts?
this is actually a good question. how many games we have seen pro transforming hellions into hellbats after doing harassment (in mid game)? I almost can't remember any.
Why would you spent so much gas for something that cost pure minerals? You can just run those hellions in to kill whatever and if lucky, pull back and repair just like how it was in WoL, replace those with hellbats when you are thinking to start a push or something.
Not to mention this transformation is only really useful for mech players. That being said, maybe it can be used in some kinda hellions pressure with transformation into hellbat all in kinda push.
On June 15 2013 14:52 SsDrKosS wrote: I have seen some people's suggestion to modify the transformation upgrade. I personally think it is really weird to have current transformantion research done because it has little impact on the games (4 seconds to transform also makes it harder to be use)
I meant, "why would you research if you can build them?" Don't you guys think they really should look into this upgrade? Thoughts?
this is actually a good question. how many games we have seen pro transforming hellions into hellbats after doing harassment (in mid game)? I almost can't remember any.
Why would you spent so much gas for something that cost pure minerals? You can just run those hellions in to kill whatever and if lucky, pull back and repair just like how it was in WoL, replace those with hellbats when you are thinking to start a push or something.
Not to mention this transformation is only really useful for mech players. That being said, maybe it can be used in some kinda hellions pressure with transformation into hellbat all in kinda push.
Blizzard "allows" for Hellbats to be produced directly, because they are on their "more aggression" trip. Nerfing the Hellbat and buffing the Banshee in return clearly shows that.
They should remove the build option for Hellbats but change the transformation time to half a second instead. That would make people want to get that upgrade and requiring some later tech building would slow down Hellbat drops enough.
On June 15 2013 14:52 SsDrKosS wrote: I have seen some people's suggestion to modify the transformation upgrade. I personally think it is really weird to have current transformantion research done because it has little impact on the games (4 seconds to transform also makes it harder to be use)
I meant, "why would you research if you can build them?" Don't you guys think they really should look into this upgrade? Thoughts?
this is actually a good question. how many games we have seen pro transforming hellions into hellbats after doing harassment (in mid game)? I almost can't remember any.
Why would you spent so much gas for something that cost pure minerals? You can just run those hellions in to kill whatever and if lucky, pull back and repair just like how it was in WoL, replace those with hellbats when you are thinking to start a push or something.
Not to mention this transformation is only really useful for mech players. That being said, maybe it can be used in some kinda hellions pressure with transformation into hellbat all in kinda push.
Blizzard "allows" for Hellbats to be produced directly, because they are on their "more aggression" trip. Nerfing the Hellbat and buffing the Banshee in return clearly shows that.
They should remove the build option for Hellbats but change the transformation time to half a second instead. That would make people want to get that upgrade and requiring some later tech building would slow down Hellbat drops enough.
I think this will be good because the terran players will think twice before early hellbat harass because they have to invest more time&money. Definitely agreeing with removing the build from factory. I still want to have hellbats purely mechanical but after a research, they will be bio/mech again, which is far more logical then the current hellbat! (and also good vs Archon!)
as a low level player i think its good to nerf hellbats, but for professional play i am not sure if the game gets stale too fast if there is not this threat any more
On June 15 2013 20:36 bypLy wrote: as a low level player i think its good to nerf hellbats, but for professional play i am not sure if the game gets stale too fast if there is not this threat any more
It is unavoidable that the game is "getting stale", because Blizzard can not keep adding new units over and over again. The "refresshment" has to come from new maps.
It already IS rather stale (boring) to watch pros drop Hellbats over and over again until they finally deal enough damage to destroy half the economy of their opponent. It is bad that a Zerg can defend 4 drops and then lose a significant amount on the 5th drop, because building Medivacs and Hellbats does not seem to cost the Terran a significant amount; he is still able to defend his base.
I'm bio terran and i see the dilemna about hellbat.
In PvT the fact that you can add hellbats easily from factory reactor to deal with the most unskilled but efficient zealot archon templar is a very good thing because it gives us terran a way to deal with it efficiently
In TvT hellbat is a big problem because the balance between bio-biotank-mech that existed in wol is completely obliterated because now mech have the best harass ability / best drop on tanks ability / best positional force so it turns TvT into mech player will win unless he made major mistakes.
Blizzard is in a very bad position because if they nerf hellbat would dammage bio hellbat play in TvP and make it totally unused as a 'composition' unit because nobody plays mech either on TvP or TvZ
The only nerf i can think of is a decrease of dmg that will be fixed by the blue flame research.
They will probably do nothing as long as the top tournament equilibrium is balanced. No matter TvT is shit right now for blizzard one thing count --> there will be no matter what a Terran player advancing so don't need to balance mirrror.
On June 30 2013 18:34 SSVnormandy wrote: I'm bio terran and i see the dilemna about hellbat.
In PvT the fact that you can add hellbats easily from factory reactor to deal with the most unskilled but efficient zealot archon templar is a very good thing because it gives us terran a way to deal with it efficiently
In TvT hellbat is a big problem because the balance between bio-biotank-mech that existed in wol is completely obliterated because now mech have the best harass ability / best drop on tanks ability / best positional force so it turns TvT into mech player will win unless he made major mistakes.
Blizzard is in a very bad position because if they nerf hellbat would dammage bio hellbat play in TvP and make it totally unused as a 'composition' unit because nobody plays mech either on TvP or TvZ
This is the thing most people calling for nerfs don't seem to understand, forcing any kind of tech lab upgrade for hellbats pretty much immediately removes them from compositions that aren't mech. The unit in its current state is specifically designed to pack a decent punch while being easy to produce, no upgrades are necessary when you simply put a reactor on your factory and start producing your meatshields. Yet even with how easily they can be added to your army people still often prefer just to build more bio, mostly due to hellbats lacking upgrades and mobility.
This is especially true for TvP where you have absolutely no reason at any point of the game to get a tech lab on your factory. In TvZ there is usually a second factory because you need tunneling claws at some point, but hellbats are more of an early game timing unit in TvZ anyway, so I think people would just build more MMMM.
My biggest gripe with these suggested hellbat nerfs is that the end result will just be more bio in every match-up. TvP will look exactly like it did in WOL, TvZ will just be bio+mines. Maybe if the hellbat nerf came with a buff to tanks, we might see something besides more marine spam.
To me TvT is all about early game aggression and multitasking into out positioning your opponent. Hellbat drops raise this skill ceiling a lot, compared to the WoL marine tank 1 hour games where players just turtle all game.
It is no coincidence that Flash and Innovation both have much more consistent TvT win rate now using a hellbat mech style. You also see that almost all Kespa pros can react to hellbat drops perfectly, but the reason why top players are still doing it is to take apm away from opponent and out multitask them.
Anything that raises the skill ceiling without affecting racial balance is only a good thing. Yes hellbat drops are OP in wood league, but it's fine at the top level. We've seen players like Taeja using standard marine hellion timing to absolutely destroy a hellbat drop build.
Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
As to TvT Hellbats are fine, there are a lot of Terran Pros built a career out of dropping the other two races with impunity, most of them panic when dropped as they haven't a fucking clue on how to defend. Give it a few more months and i am sure they will adapt and learn to deal with it
On June 30 2013 18:49 Bagi wrote: This is the thing most people calling for nerfs don't seem to understand, forcing any kind of tech lab upgrade for hellbats pretty much immediately removes them from compositions that aren't mech.
This is wrong on so many levels. In TvZ there are many players who get the mine upgrade. It is not that hard to get an additiona factory with a techlab or to just switch the addons...
On June 30 2013 18:59 Topdoller wrote: Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
As to TvT Hellbats are fine, there are a lot of Terran Pros built a career out of dropping the other two races with impunity, most of them panic when dropped as they haven't a fucking clue on how to defend. Give it a few more months and i am sure they will adapt and learn to deal with it
That's not how you should design a rts game. The goal is to have as much of the tech tree viable, ideally in all match ups to prevent staleness (every one going for the same strats). That's also why a single unit can't be too strong or otherwise every one has to go for that unit (strat). Designing a game like SC2 is a complicated task but it's not hard to see that the Hellbat (drop) is too strong. So, if you are Blizzard, you want to at least try to have both bio and mech to be viable choices (and combinations of both and air etc.). This is also clearly what they're trying to do.
On June 30 2013 18:59 Topdoller wrote: Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
As to TvT Hellbats are fine, there are a lot of Terran Pros built a career out of dropping the other two races with impunity, most of them panic when dropped as they haven't a fucking clue on how to defend. Give it a few more months and i am sure they will adapt and learn to deal with it
Why do people think that "oohh ... action" is the only way to play a game? There *should be* differenty styles to play it ... and that "oh get back to Broodwar" comment really shows the ignorance.
Some people do prefer careful planning and strategy to mindlessly clicking here and there.
In TvT hellbat is a big problem because the balance between bio-biotank-mech that existed in wol is completely obliterated because now mech have the best harass ability / best drop on tanks ability / best positional force so it turns TvT into mech player will win unless he made major mistakes.
That's a good thing in my opinion because I still honestly don't understand why bio is allowed to be effective against mech in a frontal engagement. I'm sorry, but a pure marauder force shouldn't be able to beat a proper mech force and the stupid thing is, it still does. If you get caught out of position once with mech to just pure marauders then you get completely rolled over and lose the game instantly.
In TvT however outside of vs bio I think Hellion/Tank is actually better due to how good Blue Flame is against hellbats.
David Kim what was beta for? Why do you even bother to add another stupid unit in the game? You wanted harassing gameplay you got harassing gameplay..Why the hell do you even bothered buffing the medivac? This guy doesn't know what he wants. People wanted buffed siege tanks and a good anti air mech unit, he added gimmicky units like mines and hellbats that will get nerfed in the future. He buffed reapers for god sake (aka the most useless and stupid unit in the entire game).
On June 30 2013 18:59 Topdoller wrote: Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
As to TvT Hellbats are fine, there are a lot of Terran Pros built a career out of dropping the other two races with impunity, most of them panic when dropped as they haven't a fucking clue on how to defend. Give it a few more months and i am sure they will adapt and learn to deal with it
Why do people think that "oohh ... action" is the only way to play a game? There *should be* differenty styles to play it ... and that "oh get back to Broodwar" comment really shows the ignorance.
Some people do prefer careful planning and strategy to mindlessly clicking here and there.
Different playstyles should indeed be viable. You will get that, as soon as something else than swarmhost infestor corruptor spore/spinecrawler is viable lategame against protoss, and make hydralisk viable in most situations in all matchups like marines are.
i don't know how any sane terran can call hellbat wars fun. it's just mindless button pressing that you repeat over and over again until you hit windfall.
The hellbat is a cheap, gasless, non-tech-heavy, tanky aoe unit. I don't know of any other aoe unit that satisfies all those. I don't know how that's not bullshit.
On June 30 2013 18:59 Topdoller wrote: Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
Actually with HotS they promised to make mech work in TvP so it seems like they still want mech to exist. It's just that their failure in terran design during beta made mech completely reliant on a single broken unit.
On June 30 2013 18:49 Bagi wrote: This is the thing most people calling for nerfs don't seem to understand, forcing any kind of tech lab upgrade for hellbats pretty much immediately removes them from compositions that aren't mech.
This is wrong on so many levels. In TvZ there are many players who get the mine upgrade. It is not that hard to get an additiona factory with a techlab or to just switch the addons...
I addressed this point if you read the rest of my post, mines do get upgraded but thats because they have more mid- and endgame viability in the MU. Even then terrans cant really afford the mine upgrade before 2-2 is researching. Getting another 150/150 for hellbats at the same time isn't worth it, especially since hellbats lose viability in the long run much more (you won't have upgrades for them - mines dont need upgrades, hellbats are also useless against ultras).
Some people do prefer careful planning and strategy to mindlessly clicking here and there.
I love how people call apm intensive styles "mindless clicking" when they are just too slow to pull it off. I respect mech players, I don't see why you would need to say that about bio play... In my opinion hellbats are still a needed unit for TvP. They are maybe a bit too strong, but without them the zealot/archon/storm styles with 4mn or so forges chronoed into 2/2 all in or super early 3/3 would be too hard to play against.
I think going for blue flame upgrade is ok, but that means you need an armory and a factory with tech lab instead of reactor. That will probably destroy hellbat drops completely. Maybe it would be better to make a separate blue flame hellbat upgrade and put it in the armory. They can fine tune the speed of hellbat drops by customizing price and research time of the upgrade without doing anything to the blue flame helions....
And as far as damage goes, I think lowering the red flame damage so it needs 1 additional shot to kill workers would be good enough.
On June 30 2013 18:59 Topdoller wrote: Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
As to TvT Hellbats are fine, there are a lot of Terran Pros built a career out of dropping the other two races with impunity, most of them panic when dropped as they haven't a fucking clue on how to defend. Give it a few more months and i am sure they will adapt and learn to deal with it
Why do people think that "oohh ... action" is the only way to play a game? There *should be* differenty styles to play it ... and that "oh get back to Broodwar" comment really shows the ignorance.
Some people do prefer careful planning and strategy to mindlessly clicking here and there.
We had that play style during the end of WoL and it was a snooze feast that almost killed the game with viewer counts dropping fast.
I got no interest in " careful planning and strategy", i dont want 10 mins of Sim City , then go to death ball then game over!!
And as to Broodwar i watch it still on a regular basis TSL, snipelot stream and just recently FirebatHero played a few games ( which was fricken amazing btw )
We had that play style during the end of WoL and it was a snooze feast that almost killed the game with viewer counts dropping fast.
I got no interest in " careful planning and strategy", i dont want 10 mins of Sim City , then go to death ball then game over!!
This is one of the most hyperbolic posts I've ever seen.
Mech doesn't have to be 10 minutes or sim city into deathball, mech if anything is one of the most harass based styles there are, but thanks to the tank being so weak it's impossible to really push unless you get either a huge advantage or your maxed.
The game is already 10 minutes of sim city into deathball into game over, have you seen PvT recently even against bio? I've not seen a PvT with constant action outside of maybe the terran completely picking the toss apart in forever since the optimal way to play the game as protoss is to get your maxxed army with all your AOE as bio is so damn versatile and strong that you can't really (outside of an all in) push out of your base before then as you'll get steamrolled.
Infestor Broodlord is nothing like mech, one considering that style was broken as hell as there were no real counters to it and two, terran don't have moveable static defenses and infinite spawnable energy cost units which made use of upgrades that made the style work to the point where it had no counter.
The game didn't have to be that way, but because even with it's bad mobility infestor broodlord could hold every thing with pure spines'/spores, it made agression impossible on the super narrow maps we had in WoL.
TvZ without strong harrasment for terran will just start to look more and more like WoL TvZ. Nobody wants that. Hellbats need a nerf that will delay drops (see my suggestion above) and a slight damage nerf. The game between Shuttle and Slivko already showed that even in hots, if zerg suffers no damage from harassment, BL-infestor-corruptor army is still scary as hell and very hard to beat.
On June 30 2013 18:59 Topdoller wrote: Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
Actually with HotS they promised to make mech work in TvP so it seems like they still want mech to exist. It's just that their failure in terran design during beta made mech completely reliant on a single broken unit.
Blizzard condemned Mech to an early grave when they introduced the Maurader a cheap 25 gas unit that when stimmed shits over every armored unit in the game. This unit is that good especially with 3/3 upgrades that in order to introduce another unit in the game to do a similar role (Warhound prehaps??) from a factory it would have to be even better or it wouldn't get built.
Mech will never be useful with this unit in the game, its just too good against Protoss not to get built. Its fast and mobile, it can be healed, its anti amour dps is superb and it can survive storms quite well
Mech is viable, just not so much compare to Bio when put in the hands of Korean when 250+ apm
SC2 really has bigger issues than sidekick units being an efficient way to open a game and to be mixed into compositions.
Topplayers (e.g. Innovation, Flash, Soulkey, sOs) seem to hold them in ways were they don't fall behind, so it seems like they are dealable in every matchup. At the moment they should leave them.
Blizzard condemned Mech to an early grave when they introduced the Maurader a cheap 25 gas unit that when stimmed shits over every armored unit in the game.
Marines do more damage versus armored than marauders, unless there is natural armor in the equation. The only upside with the marauder is how it doesn't die as easily to splash. --> if the marauder is a problem for mech, marines are just as much of a problem
On June 30 2013 20:47 Big J wrote: SC2 really has bigger issues than sidekick units being an efficient way to open a game and to be mixed into compositions.
Topplayers (e.g. Innovation, Flash, Soulkey, sOs) seem to hold them in ways were they don't fall behind, so it seems like they are dealable in every matchup. At the moment they should leave them.
The point is the best you can do vs helbat drops is not fall behind when you defend perfectly. This is why its so overpowered and pretty much everyone goes for it all the time.
On June 30 2013 20:47 Big J wrote: SC2 really has bigger issues than sidekick units being an efficient way to open a game and to be mixed into compositions.
Topplayers (e.g. Innovation, Flash, Soulkey, sOs) seem to hold them in ways were they don't fall behind, so it seems like they are dealable in every matchup. At the moment they should leave them.
The point is the best you can do vs helbat drops is not fall behind when you defend perfectly. This is why its so overpowered and pretty much everyone goes for it all the time.
well, that's the point of a standard build. That you end up equal. At the moment hellbat drop openings are nothing but the reactored hellions of 2011 - but less coinflippy, because you have more time to prepare for them.
On June 30 2013 18:59 Topdoller wrote: Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
Actually with HotS they promised to make mech work in TvP so it seems like they still want mech to exist. It's just that their failure in terran design during beta made mech completely reliant on a single broken unit.
Blizzard condemned Mech to an early grave when they introduced the Maurader a cheap 25 gas unit that when stimmed shits over every armored unit in the game. This unit is that good especially with 3/3 upgrades that in order to introduce another unit in the game to do a similar role (Warhound prehaps??) from a factory it would have to be even better or it wouldn't get built.
Mech will never be useful with this unit in the game, its just too good against Protoss not to get built. Its fast and mobile, it can be healed, its anti amour dps is superb and it can survive storms quite well
Mech is viable, just not so much compare to Bio when put in the hands of Korean when 250+ apm
Mech issues have nothing to do with the existence of the Marauder, who isn't "just too good against Protoss" considering he's not efficient against the standard Zealot wall.
On June 30 2013 20:47 Big J wrote: SC2 really has bigger issues than sidekick units being an efficient way to open a game and to be mixed into compositions.
Topplayers (e.g. Innovation, Flash, Soulkey, sOs) seem to hold them in ways were they don't fall behind, so it seems like they are dealable in every matchup. At the moment they should leave them.
The point is the best you can do vs helbat drops is not fall behind when you defend perfectly. This is why its so overpowered and pretty much everyone goes for it all the time.
If it's so OP and everyone does it, what do you think will happen to terran winrates once its nerfed? You seem to be rationalizing that the terran doing hellbat drops gets the advantage in most games and even is on equal footing if he gets perfectly defended. What happens to the currently balanced winrates if we take this *obvious* advantage away?
On June 30 2013 18:59 Topdoller wrote: Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
Actually with HotS they promised to make mech work in TvP so it seems like they still want mech to exist. It's just that their failure in terran design during beta made mech completely reliant on a single broken unit.
Blizzard condemned Mech to an early grave when they introduced the Maurader a cheap 25 gas unit that when stimmed shits over every armored unit in the game. This unit is that good especially with 3/3 upgrades that in order to introduce another unit in the game to do a similar role (Warhound prehaps??) from a factory it would have to be even better or it wouldn't get built.
Mech will never be useful with this unit in the game, its just too good against Protoss not to get built. Its fast and mobile, it can be healed, its anti amour dps is superb and it can survive storms quite well
Mech is viable, just not so much compare to Bio when put in the hands of Korean when 250+ apm
Mech issues have nothing to do with the existence of the Marauder, who isn't "just too good against Protoss" considering he's not efficient against the standard Zealot wall.
I think had it not been for the marauder, the game wouldn't have been balanced around bio in the very first place. Everyone abused bio so much during the initial WoL beta that it became standard and then mech got left to pretty much rot for the majority of not only WoL but seemingly HoTS now as well.
Bio is just too versatile to not be standard, it doesn't really have any real weakness and those weaknesses are easily avoidable by just having good control. Blizzard at this point are never going to buff mech because in their eyes, it's completely not necessary as everyone goes bio anyway. In the eyes of your general viewer who knows very little about the game and just watches it for the excitement factor, mech now as the weak (compared to bio) style that it is will always look boring and if mech becomes standard in any of the matchups it wouldn't surprise me if bio recieved another buff or mech got another nef.
On June 30 2013 18:59 Topdoller wrote: Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
Actually with HotS they promised to make mech work in TvP so it seems like they still want mech to exist. It's just that their failure in terran design during beta made mech completely reliant on a single broken unit.
Blizzard condemned Mech to an early grave when they introduced the Maurader a cheap 25 gas unit that when stimmed shits over every armored unit in the game. This unit is that good especially with 3/3 upgrades that in order to introduce another unit in the game to do a similar role (Warhound prehaps??) from a factory it would have to be even better or it wouldn't get built.
Mech will never be useful with this unit in the game, its just too good against Protoss not to get built. Its fast and mobile, it can be healed, its anti amour dps is superb and it can survive storms quite well
Mech is viable, just not so much compare to Bio when put in the hands of Korean when 250+ apm
Mech issues have nothing to do with the existence of the Marauder, who isn't "just too good against Protoss" considering he's not efficient against the standard Zealot wall.
I think had it not been for the marauder, the game wouldn't have been balanced around bio in the very first place. Everyone abused bio so much during the initial WoL beta that it became standard and then mech got left to pretty much rot for the majority of not only WoL but seemingly HoTS now as well.
Bio is just too versatile to not be standard, it doesn't really have any real weakness and those weaknesses are easily avoidable by just having good control. Blizzard at this point are never going to buff mech because in their eyes, it's completely not necessary as everyone goes bio anyway. In the eyes of your general viewer who knows very little about the game and just watches it for the excitement factor, mech now as the weak (compared to bio) style that it is will always look boring and if mech becomes standard in any of the matchups it wouldn't surprise me if bio recieved another buff or mech got another nef.
Kim explicitly stated in an interview that he thinks mech is boring and, if it became popular, they'd look at changes so that it wasn't used in too many games.
And as far as damage goes, I think lowering the red flame damage so it needs 1 additional shot to kill workers would be good enough.
This is what the suggested change would do
And that change would be a major nerf that could possibly end hellbat usage. Sadly there is no middle-ground between 2-shooting and 3-shooting workers. Blizzard backed themselves into a corner with this one.
On June 30 2013 18:59 Topdoller wrote: Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
Actually with HotS they promised to make mech work in TvP so it seems like they still want mech to exist. It's just that their failure in terran design during beta made mech completely reliant on a single broken unit.
Blizzard condemned Mech to an early grave when they introduced the Maurader a cheap 25 gas unit that when stimmed shits over every armored unit in the game. This unit is that good especially with 3/3 upgrades that in order to introduce another unit in the game to do a similar role (Warhound prehaps??) from a factory it would have to be even better or it wouldn't get built.
Mech will never be useful with this unit in the game, its just too good against Protoss not to get built. Its fast and mobile, it can be healed, its anti amour dps is superb and it can survive storms quite well
Mech is viable, just not so much compare to Bio when put in the hands of Korean when 250+ apm
Mech issues have nothing to do with the existence of the Marauder, who isn't "just too good against Protoss" considering he's not efficient against the standard Zealot wall.
I think had it not been for the marauder, the game wouldn't have been balanced around bio in the very first place. Everyone abused bio so much during the initial WoL beta that it became standard and then mech got left to pretty much rot for the majority of not only WoL but seemingly HoTS now as well.
Bio is just too versatile to not be standard, it doesn't really have any real weakness and those weaknesses are easily avoidable by just having good control. Blizzard at this point are never going to buff mech because in their eyes, it's completely not necessary as everyone goes bio anyway. In the eyes of your general viewer who knows very little about the game and just watches it for the excitement factor, mech now as the weak (compared to bio) style that it is will always look boring and if mech becomes standard in any of the matchups it wouldn't surprise me if bio recieved another buff or mech got another nef.
Kim explicitly stated in an interview that he thinks mech is boring and, if it became popular, they'd look at changes so that it wasn't used in too many games.
You mean the Apollo interview? I don't think he explicitly said mech was boring, more that they are trying to find a balance but still prefer bio due its more active playstyle.
On June 30 2013 20:47 Big J wrote: SC2 really has bigger issues than sidekick units being an efficient way to open a game and to be mixed into compositions.
Topplayers (e.g. Innovation, Flash, Soulkey, sOs) seem to hold them in ways were they don't fall behind, so it seems like they are dealable in every matchup. At the moment they should leave them.
Blizzard condemned Mech to an early grave when they introduced the Maurader a cheap 25 gas unit that when stimmed shits over every armored unit in the game.
Marines do more damage versus armored than marauders, unless there is natural armor in the equation. The only upside with the marauder is how it doesn't die as easily to splash. --> if the marauder is a problem for mech, marines are just as much of a problem
What really killed mech was when tanks got a massive dmg nerf in WOL beta, because zergs couldn't stop 2 base mech aggression on the tiny maps that were full of cliffs. Since then the average map is much larger, and zergs have learned the mechanics of their race quite well. This change should be undone now, make siege tanks scary again.
In TvP it's actually quite hard to produce any army that isn't good vs tanks, even sentries can hallucinate immortals to draw fire. Seriously, try to think of a protoss unit that is weak to tanks. Anything from a robo or stargate is good, and as long as you get a twilight council, charge lots or blink stalkers are good.
If terrans had the massive dmg of real siege tanks, zerg and protoss would actually have to respect the terrans army more and engage properly. Right now it seems like it is just a macro battle into trying to surround bio balls to prevent kiting, or deal out so much splash dmg the bio ball vanishes. Neither is very entertaining, and there is a huge burden on the part of the terran to control extremely well against a move command to try and surround (chargelots with colossus or speedlings with banes) or a spam of splash dmg (storm, fungal)
Tanks being strong again not only opens up mech, but makes standard marine/tank or MMM+tank not only viable but much more strategic, interesting, fun to watch and fun to play.
While mines have their built in weaknesses and ways to control well against them which greatly lowers their effectiveness, I feel like giving siege tanks back their "omfg wtf is that dmg" would allow for a scaling back of hellbat and overall enrich every terran matchup.
Also, I'm sick of watching terrans die to every all in against them that gets attempted, even when they see it coming, wall in, make extra bunkers, and produce tanks. It's ridiculous that they still work or even do significant dmg.
It's just my opinion, but I feel like siege tanks are such an iconic unit, and making them so strong that people have to respect them will be greatly enriching to every terran matchup. This will allow for other changes to be made to terran without the race being crippled, because having those tanks be positional gods again will open up so many options to terran. Sure, it might slow down the pace of some of the early game, but it will open the window for some beautiful mid/late game play.
Imagine seeing more games with this style of play, or depth of strategy and thought into using terrain.
On June 30 2013 18:59 Topdoller wrote: Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
Actually with HotS they promised to make mech work in TvP so it seems like they still want mech to exist. It's just that their failure in terran design during beta made mech completely reliant on a single broken unit.
Blizzard condemned Mech to an early grave when they introduced the Maurader a cheap 25 gas unit that when stimmed shits over every armored unit in the game. This unit is that good especially with 3/3 upgrades that in order to introduce another unit in the game to do a similar role (Warhound prehaps??) from a factory it would have to be even better or it wouldn't get built.
Mech will never be useful with this unit in the game, its just too good against Protoss not to get built. Its fast and mobile, it can be healed, its anti amour dps is superb and it can survive storms quite well
Mech is viable, just not so much compare to Bio when put in the hands of Korean when 250+ apm
Mech issues have nothing to do with the existence of the Marauder, who isn't "just too good against Protoss" considering he's not efficient against the standard Zealot wall.
I think had it not been for the marauder, the game wouldn't have been balanced around bio in the very first place. Everyone abused bio so much during the initial WoL beta that it became standard and then mech got left to pretty much rot for the majority of not only WoL but seemingly HoTS now as well.
Bio is just too versatile to not be standard, it doesn't really have any real weakness and those weaknesses are easily avoidable by just having good control. Blizzard at this point are never going to buff mech because in their eyes, it's completely not necessary as everyone goes bio anyway. In the eyes of your general viewer who knows very little about the game and just watches it for the excitement factor, mech now as the weak (compared to bio) style that it is will always look boring and if mech becomes standard in any of the matchups it wouldn't surprise me if bio recieved another buff or mech got another nef.
Kim explicitly stated in an interview that he thinks mech is boring and, if it became popular, they'd look at changes so that it wasn't used in too many games.
Kim stated he doesn't like styles that focus on static units or turtling. After seeing how swarmhosts work and the BL infestort style with 200000 spine crawlers, I can't blame him. Those were(and are) both the suck.
On June 30 2013 18:59 Topdoller wrote: Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
Actually with HotS they promised to make mech work in TvP so it seems like they still want mech to exist. It's just that their failure in terran design during beta made mech completely reliant on a single broken unit.
Blizzard condemned Mech to an early grave when they introduced the Maurader a cheap 25 gas unit that when stimmed shits over every armored unit in the game. This unit is that good especially with 3/3 upgrades that in order to introduce another unit in the game to do a similar role (Warhound prehaps??) from a factory it would have to be even better or it wouldn't get built.
Mech will never be useful with this unit in the game, its just too good against Protoss not to get built. Its fast and mobile, it can be healed, its anti amour dps is superb and it can survive storms quite well
Mech is viable, just not so much compare to Bio when put in the hands of Korean when 250+ apm
Mech issues have nothing to do with the existence of the Marauder, who isn't "just too good against Protoss" considering he's not efficient against the standard Zealot wall.
Mix in a few Hellbats , problem solved. marine\marauder + Hellbats, fast mobile and cheap (almost no gas ). any Protoss that goes heavy Zealot basically has a useless army
Either way back on topic:- in TvT Hellbats are fine. Its a mirror match-up, the players have the tools to negate the opening
On June 30 2013 20:47 Big J wrote: SC2 really has bigger issues than sidekick units being an efficient way to open a game and to be mixed into compositions.
Topplayers (e.g. Innovation, Flash, Soulkey, sOs) seem to hold them in ways were they don't fall behind, so it seems like they are dealable in every matchup. At the moment they should leave them.
Blizzard condemned Mech to an early grave when they introduced the Maurader a cheap 25 gas unit that when stimmed shits over every armored unit in the game.
Marines do more damage versus armored than marauders, unless there is natural armor in the equation. The only upside with the marauder is how it doesn't die as easily to splash. --> if the marauder is a problem for mech, marines are just as much of a problem
What really killed mech was when tanks got a massive dmg nerf in WOL beta, because zergs couldn't stop 2 base mech aggression on the tiny maps that were full of cliffs. Since then the average map is much larger, and zergs have learned the mechanics of their race quite well. This change should be undone now, make siege tanks scary again.
In TvP it's actually quite hard to produce any army that isn't good vs tanks, even sentries can hallucinate immortals to draw fire. Seriously, try to think of a protoss unit that is weak to tanks. Anything from a robo or stargate is good, and as long as you get a twilight council, charge lots or blink stalkers are good.
If terrans had the massive dmg of real siege tanks, zerg and protoss would actually have to respect the terrans army more and engage properly. Right now it seems like it is just a macro battle into trying to surround bio balls to prevent kiting, or deal out so much splash dmg the bio ball vanishes. Neither is very entertaining, and there is a huge burden on the part of the terran to control extremely well against a move command to try and surround (chargelots with colossus or speedlings with banes) or a spam of splash dmg (storm, fungal)
Tanks being strong again not only opens up mech, but makes standard marine/tank or MMM+tank not only viable but much more strategic, interesting, fun to watch and fun to play.
While mines have their built in weaknesses and ways to control well against them which greatly lowers their effectiveness, I feel like giving siege tanks back their "omfg wtf is that dmg" would allow for a scaling back of hellbat and overall enrich every terran matchup.
Also, I'm sick of watching terrans die to every all in against them that gets attempted, even when they see it coming, wall in, make extra bunkers, and produce tanks. It's ridiculous that they still work or even do significant dmg.
"Also, I'm sick of watching terrans die to every all in against them that gets attempted, even when they see it coming, wall in, make extra bunkers, and produce tanks. It's ridiculous that they still work or even do significant dmg. "
Prehaps they shouldn't load up their whole standing army into medivacs and send them to the other half of the map whilst building 3 CC's at the 6 minute mark. It's a metagame thing you are moaning about
On June 30 2013 20:47 Big J wrote: SC2 really has bigger issues than sidekick units being an efficient way to open a game and to be mixed into compositions.
Topplayers (e.g. Innovation, Flash, Soulkey, sOs) seem to hold them in ways were they don't fall behind, so it seems like they are dealable in every matchup. At the moment they should leave them.
Blizzard condemned Mech to an early grave when they introduced the Maurader a cheap 25 gas unit that when stimmed shits over every armored unit in the game.
Marines do more damage versus armored than marauders, unless there is natural armor in the equation. The only upside with the marauder is how it doesn't die as easily to splash. --> if the marauder is a problem for mech, marines are just as much of a problem
What really killed mech was when tanks got a massive dmg nerf in WOL beta, because zergs couldn't stop 2 base mech aggression on the tiny maps that were full of cliffs. Since then the average map is much larger, and zergs have learned the mechanics of their race quite well. This change should be undone now, make siege tanks scary again.
In TvP it's actually quite hard to produce any army that isn't good vs tanks, even sentries can hallucinate immortals to draw fire. Seriously, try to think of a protoss unit that is weak to tanks. Anything from a robo or stargate is good, and as long as you get a twilight council, charge lots or blink stalkers are good.
If terrans had the massive dmg of real siege tanks, zerg and protoss would actually have to respect the terrans army more and engage properly. Right now it seems like it is just a macro battle into trying to surround bio balls to prevent kiting, or deal out so much splash dmg the bio ball vanishes. Neither is very entertaining, and there is a huge burden on the part of the terran to control extremely well against a move command to try and surround (chargelots with colossus or speedlings with banes) or a spam of splash dmg (storm, fungal)
Tanks being strong again not only opens up mech, but makes standard marine/tank or MMM+tank not only viable but much more strategic, interesting, fun to watch and fun to play.
While mines have their built in weaknesses and ways to control well against them which greatly lowers their effectiveness, I feel like giving siege tanks back their "omfg wtf is that dmg" would allow for a scaling back of hellbat and overall enrich every terran matchup.
The power of Mech should not come from the Widow Mine, it should come from the Siege Tank. The Siege Tank should hit hard, not the Widow Mine. If Siege Tanks do enough damage then Mech will work. If they don't, then we'll constantly be looking for something that will do big damage and that we can combine with Siege Tanks so we can say "See Siege Tanks work when you use them with X!" X being the very hard hitting Warhound that was removed or Widow Mine. And in both cases, the Widow Mine and Warhound are better used alone or with other Terran play styles, than in conjunction with Siege Tanks in TvP.
Blizzard also believes otherwise, openly stating that they prefer Widow Mines and the play they encourage to Siege Tanks.
On June 30 2013 18:59 Topdoller wrote: Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
Actually with HotS they promised to make mech work in TvP so it seems like they still want mech to exist. It's just that their failure in terran design during beta made mech completely reliant on a single broken unit.
Blizzard condemned Mech to an early grave when they introduced the Maurader a cheap 25 gas unit that when stimmed shits over every armored unit in the game. This unit is that good especially with 3/3 upgrades that in order to introduce another unit in the game to do a similar role (Warhound prehaps??) from a factory it would have to be even better or it wouldn't get built.
Mech will never be useful with this unit in the game, its just too good against Protoss not to get built. Its fast and mobile, it can be healed, its anti amour dps is superb and it can survive storms quite well
Mech is viable, just not so much compare to Bio when put in the hands of Korean when 250+ apm
Mech issues have nothing to do with the existence of the Marauder, who isn't "just too good against Protoss" considering he's not efficient against the standard Zealot wall.
I think had it not been for the marauder, the game wouldn't have been balanced around bio in the very first place. Everyone abused bio so much during the initial WoL beta that it became standard and then mech got left to pretty much rot for the majority of not only WoL but seemingly HoTS now as well.
Bio is just too versatile to not be standard, it doesn't really have any real weakness and those weaknesses are easily avoidable by just having good control. Blizzard at this point are never going to buff mech because in their eyes, it's completely not necessary as everyone goes bio anyway. In the eyes of your general viewer who knows very little about the game and just watches it for the excitement factor, mech now as the weak (compared to bio) style that it is will always look boring and if mech becomes standard in any of the matchups it wouldn't surprise me if bio recieved another buff or mech got another nef.
Kim explicitly stated in an interview that he thinks mech is boring and, if it became popular, they'd look at changes so that it wasn't used in too many games.
Kim stated he doesn't like styles that focus on static units or turtling. After seeing how swarmhosts work and the BL infestort style with 200000 spine crawlers, I can't blame him. Those were(and are) both the suck.
So he thinks that static units and turtling is boring, yet he released the Swarm Host, Mothership Core with Photon Overcharge and Widow Mine and keeps buffing the Spore Crawler?
And as far as damage goes, I think lowering the red flame damage so it needs 1 additional shot to kill workers would be good enough.
This is what the suggested change would do
And that change would be a major nerf that could possibly end hellbat usage. Sadly there is no middle-ground between 2-shooting and 3-shooting workers. Blizzard backed themselves into a corner with this one.
The easy fix is make it 3 shot workers, by nerfing the damage, but correspondingly buff the attack speed. That way hellbats do the same dps. That nerfs them in worker drops and in TvT against marines which is the 2 things they need fixing for. Mech is just as viable and hellbats in tvp are just as viable.
On June 30 2013 18:59 Topdoller wrote: Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
Actually with HotS they promised to make mech work in TvP so it seems like they still want mech to exist. It's just that their failure in terran design during beta made mech completely reliant on a single broken unit.
Blizzard condemned Mech to an early grave when they introduced the Maurader a cheap 25 gas unit that when stimmed shits over every armored unit in the game. This unit is that good especially with 3/3 upgrades that in order to introduce another unit in the game to do a similar role (Warhound prehaps??) from a factory it would have to be even better or it wouldn't get built.
Mech will never be useful with this unit in the game, its just too good against Protoss not to get built. Its fast and mobile, it can be healed, its anti amour dps is superb and it can survive storms quite well
Mech is viable, just not so much compare to Bio when put in the hands of Korean when 250+ apm
Mech issues have nothing to do with the existence of the Marauder, who isn't "just too good against Protoss" considering he's not efficient against the standard Zealot wall.
That is correct ... and incorrect.
Mech is the "unwanted child" of Blizzard, but they cant take out the Siege Tank (like they wanted to with the Carrier) or else people would go fusion. The whole "massive armies" and "mobility based clumped up armies" style of gameplay design really makes carefully advancing positional mech unplayable. On the other side the Marauder gives players an easier to play alternative to choose from.
On June 30 2013 20:47 Big J wrote: SC2 really has bigger issues than sidekick units being an efficient way to open a game and to be mixed into compositions.
Topplayers (e.g. Innovation, Flash, Soulkey, sOs) seem to hold them in ways were they don't fall behind, so it seems like they are dealable in every matchup. At the moment they should leave them.
The point is the best you can do vs helbat drops is not fall behind when you defend perfectly. This is why its so overpowered and pretty much everyone goes for it all the time.
If it's so OP and everyone does it, what do you think will happen to terran winrates once its nerfed? You seem to be rationalizing that the terran doing hellbat drops gets the advantage in most games and even is on equal footing if he gets perfectly defended. What happens to the currently balanced winrates if we take this *obvious* advantage away?
Blizzard would have to come up with something else to balance the game again.
Do you really think that winrates are really balanced because the game is balanced OR are they balanced because the game is turning ever more into a coinflip (which is balanced) game where the outcome is decided by "do you defend against the Hellbat drop or not"?
Another question: Do you really think games with continuous Hellbat drops make great games to watch? It is ridiculously easy to pull off a multi-drop with Hellbats, because each drop is powerful and needs to be defended against well by superior forces. The consequence of this is that you do not get to watch everything, because there will be a drop in about three bases (or far more if it is a TvT) plus a possible "dance" of a clump of Marines against whatever is left at the front of the defending players base. Personally I think that is unwatchable and totally lacks excitement because you know Hellbats will win eventually. Best example was Moonglade vs Sound (I think) from day 2 MLG, where Moonglade defended brilliantly against the first 3-4 double-Medivac Hellbat drops and yet lost a huge amount with the 5th drop. He *should have been* ahead due to only losing minerals mostly and each drop was two Medivacs (which were killed) plus four Hellions and not a lot of Drones died.
Just sticking to doping "because everyone does it" really was no valid excuse for all those Jan Ullrichs and Lance Armstrongs ... it has to stop no matter what the consequence. It is the same for Hellbats ... they are far too risk-free and promise a gigantic reward for it. Buffing the Banshee in the hope that it replaces the Hellbat as a harrassment unit is a terrible idea, because Spore Crawlers defend against both of them. Soooo ... Blizzard is clueless as to what to do yet again.
On June 30 2013 18:59 Topdoller wrote: Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
Actually with HotS they promised to make mech work in TvP so it seems like they still want mech to exist. It's just that their failure in terran design during beta made mech completely reliant on a single broken unit.
Blizzard condemned Mech to an early grave when they introduced the Maurader a cheap 25 gas unit that when stimmed shits over every armored unit in the game. This unit is that good especially with 3/3 upgrades that in order to introduce another unit in the game to do a similar role (Warhound prehaps??) from a factory it would have to be even better or it wouldn't get built.
Mech will never be useful with this unit in the game, its just too good against Protoss not to get built. Its fast and mobile, it can be healed, its anti amour dps is superb and it can survive storms quite well
Mech is viable, just not so much compare to Bio when put in the hands of Korean when 250+ apm
Mech issues have nothing to do with the existence of the Marauder, who isn't "just too good against Protoss" considering he's not efficient against the standard Zealot wall.
I think had it not been for the marauder, the game wouldn't have been balanced around bio in the very first place. Everyone abused bio so much during the initial WoL beta that it became standard and then mech got left to pretty much rot for the majority of not only WoL but seemingly HoTS now as well.
Bio is just too versatile to not be standard, it doesn't really have any real weakness and those weaknesses are easily avoidable by just having good control. Blizzard at this point are never going to buff mech because in their eyes, it's completely not necessary as everyone goes bio anyway. In the eyes of your general viewer who knows very little about the game and just watches it for the excitement factor, mech now as the weak (compared to bio) style that it is will always look boring and if mech becomes standard in any of the matchups it wouldn't surprise me if bio recieved another buff or mech got another nef.
Kim explicitly stated in an interview that he thinks mech is boring and, if it became popular, they'd look at changes so that it wasn't used in too many games.
And this is why they are terrible game designers ... because they do NOT think objectively and think they must make one choice more attractive than another. I have said it for some time now that Starcraft 2 is NOT a Strategy game but rather an Action game instead ... RTA. Everything they say and do supports this, because they want faster and faster gameplay where careful planning and execution is far less important than split-second clicking and resource / production management.
On June 30 2013 20:47 Big J wrote: SC2 really has bigger issues than sidekick units being an efficient way to open a game and to be mixed into compositions.
Topplayers (e.g. Innovation, Flash, Soulkey, sOs) seem to hold them in ways were they don't fall behind, so it seems like they are dealable in every matchup. At the moment they should leave them.
Blizzard condemned Mech to an early grave when they introduced the Maurader a cheap 25 gas unit that when stimmed shits over every armored unit in the game.
Marines do more damage versus armored than marauders, unless there is natural armor in the equation. The only upside with the marauder is how it doesn't die as easily to splash. --> if the marauder is a problem for mech, marines are just as much of a problem
What really killed mech was when tanks got a massive dmg nerf in WOL beta, because zergs couldn't stop 2 base mech aggression on the tiny maps that were full of cliffs. Since then the average map is much larger, and zergs have learned the mechanics of their race quite well. This change should be undone now, make siege tanks scary again.
In TvP it's actually quite hard to produce any army that isn't good vs tanks, even sentries can hallucinate immortals to draw fire. Seriously, try to think of a protoss unit that is weak to tanks. Anything from a robo or stargate is good, and as long as you get a twilight council, charge lots or blink stalkers are good.
If terrans had the massive dmg of real siege tanks, zerg and protoss would actually have to respect the terrans army more and engage properly. Right now it seems like it is just a macro battle into trying to surround bio balls to prevent kiting, or deal out so much splash dmg the bio ball vanishes. Neither is very entertaining, and there is a huge burden on the part of the terran to control extremely well against a move command to try and surround (chargelots with colossus or speedlings with banes) or a spam of splash dmg (storm, fungal)
Tanks being strong again not only opens up mech, but makes standard marine/tank or MMM+tank not only viable but much more strategic, interesting, fun to watch and fun to play.
While mines have their built in weaknesses and ways to control well against them which greatly lowers their effectiveness, I feel like giving siege tanks back their "omfg wtf is that dmg" would allow for a scaling back of hellbat and overall enrich every terran matchup.
Also, I'm sick of watching terrans die to every all in against them that gets attempted, even when they see it coming, wall in, make extra bunkers, and produce tanks. It's ridiculous that they still work or even do significant dmg.
"Also, I'm sick of watching terrans die to every all in against them that gets attempted, even when they see it coming, wall in, make extra bunkers, and produce tanks. It's ridiculous that they still work or even do significant dmg. "
Prehaps they shouldn't load up their whole standing army into medivacs and send them to the other half of the map whilst building 3 CC's at the 6 minute mark. It's a metagame thing you are moaning about
Your point is valid, when a terran is being greedy and loading up large drops, aggression should punish that. However, it's difficult to justify hearing a caster in a pro level match say "he see's what (player X) is doing, he's gonna get the extra bunkers up in time, he has completed the wall in, the first tanks will be out, he's pulled back his drop, scv's are in position to repair, but he still can't hold this" in one breath, it's kind of sad.
Also, I don't see how anyone can call a terran greedy for building a 3rd cc in base, when his zerg opponent is already droning a 3rd, or a protoss on 2 bases is already producing tier 3 tech (colossus or storm), yet we hear this called "greedy" all the time.
I just want to see better matches, and I want strategy, decision making, and use of terrain to be more rewarded. I think it produces better games with more tension.
Let me be more clear on 1 other thing as well, I absolutely agree that hellbat drops are too strong.
Would love to see a change that Hellbat can't go into the Medivac, that would solves every problem and concern there is but game design trumps balance it seems.
About the tank, yeah it's awful compared to the WM but nerfing the WM isn't a option, buff the tank not with damage but make so they siege/unsiege faster. Reason why the Terran tank play is considered slow and boring is because you are too afraid of Zerg when you move onto creep, only takes one second for the Zerg to get the window it needs.
Nerfs are really bad honestly, would be a lot more fun if Blizzard decided to buff another unit to counter better. (they did this with sporecrawler which I found to be a great change)
On June 30 2013 22:10 Tobblish wrote: Would love to see a change that Hellbat can't go into the Medivac, that would solves every problem and concern there is but game design trumps balance it seems.
About the tank, yeah it's awful compared to the WM but nerfing the WM isn't a option, buff the tank not with damage but make so they siege/unsiege faster. Reason why the Terran tank play is considered slow and boring is because you are too afraid of Zerg when you move onto creep, only takes one second for the Zerg to get the window it needs.
Nerfs are really bad honestly, would be a lot more fun if Blizzard decided to buff another unit to counter better. (they did this with sporecrawler which I found to be a great change)
I'd like it if the tanks didn't have their dmg split up with bonuses against certain types. I'm thinking give them full flat dmg like they used to be. Running your army straight into a well positioned siege line, that uses terrain, and has supporting units should almost always be complete suicide in my opinion. You should always have to out position, out maneuver and attempt full surrounds on them to fight them effectively. The way to beat them should be all about counter positioning and mobility, instead of the current state, which is make the right composition of units and steam roll through them.
Nerf the hellbat drops (maybe remove the medevac healing, or reduce their dmg vs workers in some way) but I say also give the tank back its respect.
If you ever re-watch the movie "Jaws", pay attention to how little time the shark is on the screen until the very end of the movie. It builds tension, excitement, anticipation, the imagination runs wild. That is a big part of why that movie was such a phenomenon. I feel like tanks and positional play could bring that to sc2 just as they did in Broodwar.
On June 30 2013 22:10 Tobblish wrote: Would love to see a change that Hellbat can't go into the Medivac, that would solves every problem and concern there is but game design trumps balance it seems.
About the tank, yeah it's awful compared to the WM but nerfing the WM isn't a option, buff the tank not with damage but make so they siege/unsiege faster. Reason why the Terran tank play is considered slow and boring is because you are too afraid of Zerg when you move onto creep, only takes one second for the Zerg to get the window it needs.
Nerfs are really bad honestly, would be a lot more fun if Blizzard decided to buff another unit to counter better. (they did this with sporecrawler which I found to be a great change)
I'd like it if the tanks didn't have their dmg split up with bonuses against certain types. I'm thinking give them full flat dmg like they used to be. Running your army straight into a well positioned siege line, that uses terrain, and has supporting units should almost always be complete suicide in my opinion. You should always have to out position, out maneuver and attempt full surrounds on them to fight them effectively. The way to beat them should be all about counter positioning and mobility, instead of the current state, which is make the right composition of units and steam roll through them.
Nerf the hellbat drops (maybe remove the medevac healing, or reduce their dmg vs workers in some way) but I say also give the tank back its respect.
removing bio tag seems like a good idea, but then i don't think we will see hellbats with bio anymore.. and they will probably disappear from the tvp matchup.
a good idea would be making a special tag for workers, this way blizzzard can exactly insert how much dmg every single unit does to workers..
Also, I don't see how anyone can call a terran greedy for building a 3rd cc in base, when his zerg opponent is already droning a 3rd, or a protoss on 2 bases is already producing tier 3 tech (colossus or storm), yet we hear this called "greedy" all the time.
How is having 3 CC's started at the 6 minute mark not greedy? Just as a Zerg droning a third at that time is greedy, if Terran goes for a one base push they will be able to punish that. If you go for greed your opponent will be able to as well. Nothing wrong with that.
On June 30 2013 22:10 Tobblish wrote: Would love to see a change that Hellbat can't go into the Medivac, that would solves every problem and concern there is but game design trumps balance it seems.
About the tank, yeah it's awful compared to the WM but nerfing the WM isn't a option, buff the tank not with damage but make so they siege/unsiege faster. Reason why the Terran tank play is considered slow and boring is because you are too afraid of Zerg when you move onto creep, only takes one second for the Zerg to get the window it needs.
Nerfs are really bad honestly, would be a lot more fun if Blizzard decided to buff another unit to counter better. (they did this with sporecrawler which I found to be a great change)
I'd like it if the tanks didn't have their dmg split up with bonuses against certain types. I'm thinking give them full flat dmg like they used to be. Running your army straight into a well positioned siege line, that uses terrain, and has supporting units should almost always be complete suicide in my opinion. You should always have to out position, out maneuver and attempt full surrounds on them to fight them effectively. The way to beat them should be all about counter positioning and mobility, instead of the current state, which is make the right composition of units and steam roll through them.
Nerf the hellbat drops (maybe remove the medevac healing, or reduce their dmg vs workers in some way) but I say also give the tank back its respect.
If you ever re-watch the movie "Jaws", pay attention to how little time the shark is on the screen until the very end of the movie. It builds tension, excitement, anticipation, the imagination runs wild. That is a big part of why that movie was such a phenomenon. I feel like tanks and positional play could bring that to sc2 just as they did in Broodwar.
50/60 flat damage woild be crazy good as marine support vs zerglings/banelings and marines/hellions. The 50/25 percent zones of the tank would do too much damage against those units. what they should do instead is buff the damage to the maintarget, i.e increase the damge to something like 50+25 and nerf the splash percentages in a way that the damage n those areas is the same as now.
And as far as damage goes, I think lowering the red flame damage so it needs 1 additional shot to kill workers would be good enough.
This is what the suggested change would do
And that change would be a major nerf that could possibly end hellbat usage. Sadly there is no middle-ground between 2-shooting and 3-shooting workers. Blizzard backed themselves into a corner with this one.
The easy fix is make it 3 shot workers, by nerfing the damage, but correspondingly buff the attack speed. That way hellbats do the same dps. That nerfs them in worker drops and in TvT against marines which is the 2 things they need fixing for. Mech is just as viable and hellbats in tvp are just as viable.
It has been tried. Aside from making armor much more effective against them it turned out that lings are faring even worse against multiple hellbats in formation.
The unit is simply badly designed as it was supposed to be part of mech TvP and there is no hope for small adjustments to fix it. And the only large changes that community accepts are nerfs.
Also, I don't see how anyone can call a terran greedy for building a 3rd cc in base, when his zerg opponent is already droning a 3rd, or a protoss on 2 bases is already producing tier 3 tech (colossus or storm), yet we hear this called "greedy" all the time.
How is having 3 CC's started at the 6 minute mark not greedy? Just as a Zerg droning a third at that time is greedy, if Terran goes for a one base push they will be able to punish that. If you go for greed your opponent will be able to as well. Nothing wrong with that.
cuz the zerg took his 3rd at 5 mins? 3 CC started at 6 min just about breaks even.
Also, I don't see how anyone can call a terran greedy for building a 3rd cc in base, when his zerg opponent is already droning a 3rd, or a protoss on 2 bases is already producing tier 3 tech (colossus or storm), yet we hear this called "greedy" all the time.
How is having 3 CC's started at the 6 minute mark not greedy? Just as a Zerg droning a third at that time is greedy, if Terran goes for a one base push they will be able to punish that. If you go for greed your opponent will be able to as well. Nothing wrong with that.
I agree, six minutes is greedy. However, punishing a fast 3rd by zerg would have to be reactionary, a 1 base all in would certainly have to be a pre decided build.
The distinction I'm trying to make is that (I think it was on inside the game a week or 2 ago?) I heard Idra state that a terran taking a 3rd in base cc, in a game where the zerg already had a 3rd base, and then the terran was crushed by ling/roach/bane bust, "deserved to die for being greedy". No one on the show confronted him on it, and it seems there is a consensus that this is accurate.
The zerg was able to see the 3rd CC and react with all out aggression and win, I don't think either T or P can scout aquick zerg 3rd and react with an all in, expecting to have much success. It certainly works very well if they were planning on doing an all in from the start. Doing that is what is commonly called a "coin flip". Because even with it being a pre planned build, it is defend-able by zerg.
I'm gonna end my contribution to this line of discussion here, we're getting a bit off topic (and I fear the might of the TL mods XD ) I ran out any lean-ency they had for me long ago.
So back on topic, I very much like how careful, considerate, and patient Blizzard is being with changes. However, in my opinion, it couldn't hurt for them to take a second, careful look at some of the many knee-jerk changes that were made to sc2 shortly after its birth. Tanks being first and foremost in my mind.
I think they will end up giving the hellbats some kind of nerf and rightfully so. I don't mind them being cautious about it. This is certainly a lesson they've learned the hard way. I'm just worried that terrans will suffer from the nerf, not because they don't know how to execute other styles, but because the range of viable terran styles is too limited. Which is why I brought up the siege tank in the first place. It alone can open up a lot of options for terran.
On June 11 2013 10:56 jcroisdale wrote: Something there not even considering is there late game utility. TvP when the terran goes mech, is so much stronger, because the hellbat is such an efficient harassment unit.
The early game attacks are hard, but late game is just as difficult.
It's the ONLY harassment option Mech has at this point. It should be strong.
What's dumb is how strong Helbat drops are as part of bio play especially in the early game. Their late game utility for mech is fine.
Late game I'd argue that Blue Flame Hellions are better for harassing and I use them in my play as people always over defend drops forgetting pylon walls and what have you to stop hellion runbys. I find hellions a lot better than hellbats in general actually. In TvP I win more battles with just blue flame hellions than I do with hellbats due to how damn strong archons are against hellbats.
I feel like we're derailing discussion over something long since settled. Zerg naturally gets more bases. A 3 base Zerg vs 2 base Terran/Protoss is standard. The 4th of the Zerg and the 3rd of the Terran/Protoss determines the greediness of the build in a standard midgame match. Even 2 base Zerg vs 1 base Terran/Protoss is standard. There is some exception, because Roach/Ling is super cost-efficient, you can do early game aggression on equal bases but either lethal damage needs to be done or a transition is in order, otherwise the +1 rule generally holds throughout the match that gradually turns into +2 when 4 or more bases is possible.
I'm cool with making the siege tank better while nerfing the Hellbat, but they really need to bring back siege mode research. Right now it's far too easy to have a safe build with Terran. Worried about a possible early attack? Just make a tank and siege it up. Deters anything on the ground in the first 5-8 mins. We saw Polt make two tanks vs Dear yesterday and then when he was feeling safer he just brought them with his all-in. If we are going to have stronger tanks, there needs to be an actual time investment from the Terran.
On June 30 2013 23:33 Fig wrote: I'm cool with making the siege tank better while nerfing the Hellbat, but they really need to bring back siege mode research. Right now it's far too easy to have a safe build with Terran. Worried about a possible early attack? Just make a tank and siege it up. Deters anything on the ground in the first 5-8 mins. We saw Polt make two tanks vs Dear yesterday and then when he was feeling safer he just brought them with his all-in. If we are going to have stronger tanks, there needs to be an actual time investment from the Terran.
The reason why they removed siege research in the first place was to promote mech openings. I've played mech all through WoL and continue too now and in WoL if they did some kind of gateway timing you just straight up died.
Heck, I open siege expand and even now it's really, really hard to defend blink all ins. You can get up to three tanks before they arrive currently with the all in, but if you're positioned slightly wrong you die instantly. With any less tanks and I think it'd be even harder to hold.
On June 30 2013 23:33 Fig wrote: I'm cool with making the siege tank better while nerfing the Hellbat, but they really need to bring back siege mode research. Right now it's far too easy to have a safe build with Terran. Worried about a possible early attack? Just make a tank and siege it up. Deters anything on the ground in the first 5-8 mins. We saw Polt make two tanks vs Dear yesterday and then when he was feeling safer he just brought them with his all-in. If we are going to have stronger tanks, there needs to be an actual time investment from the Terran.
The reason why they removed siege research in the first place was to promote mech openings. I've played mech all through WoL and continue too now and in WoL if they did some kind of gateway timing you just straight up died.
Heck, I open siege expand and even now it's really, really hard to defend blink all ins. You can get up to three tanks before they arrive currently with the all in, but if you're positioned slightly wrong you die instantly. With any less tanks and I think it'd be even harder to hold.
Yes and that's why they should promote mech openings by making tanks stronger, which would accomplish both tasks. It would make defending easier since less tanks would be needed. And it would promote increased use of tanks later in the game besides silly all-ins. It would overall make actually getting the siege research worthwhile, because sieged tanks would be desirable to have.
By removing the siege mode upgrade, all they did was encourage people to open up with a few tanks for defense and/or faster/cheaper all-ins. It did nothing to promote tank usage throughout the game.
I still can't believe they think mines are 100% fine.
They have 90 hp same as a hydralisk and their explosion radius is too large. They are too much of an x factor.
Also, the fact that corruptors are supposed to be anti air and only anti air and they are zergs worst unit, quite possibly the worst unit in the game and blizz won't do anything.
They are SUPPOSED TO BEAT air and they get absolutely manhandled by void rays for example.
On June 30 2013 22:10 Tobblish wrote: Would love to see a change that Hellbat can't go into the Medivac, that would solves every problem and concern there is but game design trumps balance it seems.
About the tank, yeah it's awful compared to the WM but nerfing the WM isn't a option, buff the tank not with damage but make so they siege/unsiege faster. Reason why the Terran tank play is considered slow and boring is because you are too afraid of Zerg when you move onto creep, only takes one second for the Zerg to get the window it needs.
Nerfs are really bad honestly, would be a lot more fun if Blizzard decided to buff another unit to counter better. (they did this with sporecrawler which I found to be a great change)
I'd like it if the tanks didn't have their dmg split up with bonuses against certain types. I'm thinking give them full flat dmg like they used to be. Running your army straight into a well positioned siege line, that uses terrain, and has supporting units should almost always be complete suicide in my opinion. You should always have to out position, out maneuver and attempt full surrounds on them to fight them effectively. The way to beat them should be all about counter positioning and mobility, instead of the current state, which is make the right composition of units and steam roll through them.
Nerf the hellbat drops (maybe remove the medevac healing, or reduce their dmg vs workers in some way) but I say also give the tank back its respect.
If you ever re-watch the movie "Jaws", pay attention to how little time the shark is on the screen until the very end of the movie. It builds tension, excitement, anticipation, the imagination runs wild. That is a big part of why that movie was such a phenomenon. I feel like tanks and positional play could bring that to sc2 just as they did in Broodwar.
50/60 flat damage woild be crazy good as marine support vs zerglings/banelings and marines/hellions. The 50/25 percent zones of the tank would do too much damage against those units. what they should do instead is buff the damage to the maintarget, i.e increase the damge to something like 50+25 and nerf the splash percentages in a way that the damage n those areas is the same as now.
You are ignoring the fact that tanks still deal SPLASH damage and have their "max damage" reduced that way too. A Zergling in the outermost part of the splash damage takes only a lousy 25% of 35 damage right now and that is 8.75 damage. Whoopdeedooo ... awesome! Zerglings dont even get one-shotted in the secondary radius and you get only three of them in the primary radius. So the only reason why Siege Tanks seem to be ok is the awesome visual explosions ... which dont do much at all.
In BW tanks did 70 explosive splash damage, which reduced the damage to small units - Zerglings, Marines, Zealots, .. - by 50%, but at least high damage units like Hydralisks (75% damage) and Dragoon (100% damage) took more damage than that. In SC2 Stalkers take only 50 damage and Hydralisks are at the pitifully small amount which Zerglings get ... in addition to a nerf for the radius of the shot (iirc) compared to BW. So there are more units on the battlefield and yet the tanks deal less damage ... which ultimately results in them having a FAR LOWER SURVIVABILITY ... which is supported by tanks being 3 supply instead of only 2.
Siege Tanks only look good as damage dealers in SC2 because of the improved explosion graphics!
Oh and splash percentages are FIXED and dont need to be reduced any more. That would really make AoE ridiculous, because your suggestion turns this "AoE attack" into "an illusionary AoE attack which really is a single target attack".
On June 14 2013 06:09 sibs wrote: It's ok for your 100 a-moving mineral unit to completely shut down the other races mineral units?
The hellbat is just overtuned I'm sorry, it should need upgrades to shut down 3/3 lings zealots, right now you can have 3/3/3 zealots vs 0/0 hellbats w/o medivac support and you're still getting rolled.
Why do you call it a 100 a-moving mineral unit, when that's exactly what zealots are but worse?
I can't even begin to count the games I've lost mech TvP since he kills all my hellbats then just warps in 20 zealots and kills the entire rest of my army.
There's a reason why hellbats need to be strongf.
But Zealots don't do splash and Hellbats dish out much more damage.
On June 30 2013 22:10 Tobblish wrote: Would love to see a change that Hellbat can't go into the Medivac, that would solves every problem and concern there is but game design trumps balance it seems.
About the tank, yeah it's awful compared to the WM but nerfing the WM isn't a option, buff the tank not with damage but make so they siege/unsiege faster. Reason why the Terran tank play is considered slow and boring is because you are too afraid of Zerg when you move onto creep, only takes one second for the Zerg to get the window it needs.
Nerfs are really bad honestly, would be a lot more fun if Blizzard decided to buff another unit to counter better. (they did this with sporecrawler which I found to be a great change)
My complaint about making it so it can't go in a medivac, is that would be really silly. Everything a terran has go go into a medivac. So how do you explain that. I would say take a different approach with them maybe slow down the speed that they come at you
On June 30 2013 18:34 SSVnormandy wrote: I'm bio terran and i see the dilemna about hellbat.
In PvT the fact that you can add hellbats easily from factory reactor to deal with the most unskilled but efficient zealot archon templar is a very good thing because it gives us terran a way to deal with it efficiently
In TvT hellbat is a big problem because the balance between bio-biotank-mech that existed in wol is completely obliterated because now mech have the best harass ability / best drop on tanks ability / best positional force so it turns TvT into mech player will win unless he made major mistakes.
Blizzard is in a very bad position because if they nerf hellbat would dammage bio hellbat play in TvP and make it totally unused as a 'composition' unit because nobody plays mech either on TvP or TvZ
The only nerf i can think of is a decrease of dmg that will be fixed by the blue flame research.
They will probably do nothing as long as the top tournament equilibrium is balanced. No matter TvT is shit right now for blizzard one thing count --> there will be no matter what a Terran player advancing so don't need to balance mirrror.
True, but nobody has a way to deal with hellbats efficiently, especially if they are supported by Marauders.
On June 30 2013 22:10 Tobblish wrote: Would love to see a change that Hellbat can't go into the Medivac, that would solves every problem and concern there is but game design trumps balance it seems.
About the tank, yeah it's awful compared to the WM but nerfing the WM isn't a option, buff the tank not with damage but make so they siege/unsiege faster. Reason why the Terran tank play is considered slow and boring is because you are too afraid of Zerg when you move onto creep, only takes one second for the Zerg to get the window it needs.
Nerfs are really bad honestly, would be a lot more fun if Blizzard decided to buff another unit to counter better. (they did this with sporecrawler which I found to be a great change)
My complaint about making it so it can't go in a medivac, is that would be really silly. Everything a terran has go go into a medivac. So how do you explain that. I would say take a different approach with them maybe slow down the speed that they come at you
It also completely breaks game logic. Even banelings go into overlords. That would be the only unit that doesn't.
Make it non-biological so it cannot be healed would go such a long way. Plus that only makes goddamn sense. Its a walking tank thing that transforms from a hellion. How can it be healed?
On July 01 2013 00:56 _SpiRaL_ wrote: Make it non-biological so it cannot be healed would go such a long way. Plus that only makes goddamn sense. Its a walking tank thing that transforms from a hellion. How can it be healed?
i had that complaint about scvs as soon as the game came out
On July 01 2013 00:24 jj33 wrote: I still can't believe they think mines are 100% fine.
They have 90 hp same as a hydralisk and their explosion radius is too large. They are too much of an x factor.
Also, the fact that corruptors are supposed to be anti air and only anti air and they are zergs worst unit, quite possibly the worst unit in the game and blizz won't do anything.
They are SUPPOSED TO BEAT air and they get absolutely manhandled by void rays for example.
I don't think you can compare zerg units 1v1 vs other races (or even in terms of resource). Because zerg macro (expansion, larvae, etc) is just so much more explosive compare to the other 2 races.
If bio meaning marines and marauders stay this strong we will never have mech as a composition or even decent T3 for Terran. Anything that can be combined with marines would kill. There was never any reason you would not play bio because its fast, cost efficient and has the most dps in the game. Every unit has almost the exact range, upgrades and move at the same speed so its really intuitive to control. Only weakness is to AOE which can be circumvented by good control, avoiding fights or adding up support units such as ghosts and vikings. You can't have death dealing tanks that can be combined with marines it would simply be too strong.
Now if we had those tanks, we could see Terrans harrasing with dedicated and cheap units while building up their army and leap-frogging across the map, while Protoss tries to take more bases and throws some harass of their own. Now, we see Protoss mostly sitting on their asses for 15minutes (save some dt or prism drops that are used to delay the timing from Terran so Protoss can get their AOE units) and that is all. I wish bio can remain strong for a good period of time but then slowly transition to more expensive and stronger units late game like every other race has in this or any other RTS, but alas what was a mistake at the beggining soon became a philosophy that bio is fun, mobile and unique and that it should never be changed. Too much time has passed now to change the entire game.
Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops? The most recent example IRC is Sound in MLG. He also did this against Golden @ Redull when down 0-1. Now this reaction is by no means unique to him, lol. Hellbat drops have fast approached 1-1-1 status. Terran players know they are stupid - they know fans hate to watch them, but when they are down a game they WILL use them.
I mean either that, or they avoid using them too much so that they won't get nerfed (lol).
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
Well, that works too. Not that I disagree with it, just cause and effect are a bit different.
And also success rates. And the whole entertainment factor.
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
Well, that works too. Not that I disagree with it, just cause and effect are a bit different.
And also success rates. And the whole entertainment factor.
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
Well, that works too. Not that I disagree with it, just cause and effect are a bit different.
And also success rates. And the whole entertainment factor.
And you being shot in the leg.
Legs of steel, baby. A lot of Zergs roach bane allin as a response to 3CC because it is very, very difficult to compete in a macro game if Terran opens that way. Hellbat drop isn't a response to anything...it's just an abuse of a highly damaging unit composition with a large success rate even if scouted. Not to mention that it is in no means all-in, - and that it does considerable damage even if it is scouted in the form of pulling all your drones, and overcommitting to defense early in the game. And that T can do this off the back of a 3rd CC (if he wants to be safe he can do it with 2 and still be ahead).
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops? The most recent example IRC is Sound in MLG. He also did this against Golden @ Redull when down 0-1. Now this reaction is by no means unique to him, lol. Hellbat drops have fast approached 1-1-1 status. Terran players know they are stupid - they know fans hate to watch them, but when they are down a game they WILL use them.
I mean either that, or they avoid using them too much so that they won't get nerfed (lol).
Ye sure, Terrans are purposefully not over-using hellbats for fear of being nerfed. Do you realize how baseless your Terran conspiracy is?
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops? The most recent example IRC is Sound in MLG. He also did this against Golden @ Redull when down 0-1. Now this reaction is by no means unique to him, lol. Hellbat drops have fast approached 1-1-1 status. Terran players know they are stupid - they know fans hate to watch them, but when they are down a game they WILL use them.
I mean either that, or they avoid using them too much so that they won't get nerfed (lol).
Ye sure, Terrans are purposefully not over-using hellbats for fear of being nerfed. Do you realize how baseless your Terran conspiracy is?
No? I just threw it out there. I didn't say it was the only opinion one has to have. We all need a little conspiracy once in awhile to keep us going, though.
I would love to see hellbats be made non bio but can still be loaded into medivacs. Raise their movement speed a tiny bit, reduce base damage/utilize blue flame as a mid/late game upgrade for the unit.
This would make hellbats slightly more than just tank fodder in mech TvT, make hellbats drops more micro oriented, and keep their identity as the game goes on.
Disallowing them the ability to load up would make the unit useless IMO, and would not really be productive.
well i don't have that much of a problem with hellbats in general, or drops in the mineral line, but i think it's fucking absurd when terrans boost them to drop on your army. seems really abusive
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
Well, that works too. Not that I disagree with it, just cause and effect are a bit different.
And also success rates. And the whole entertainment factor.
And you being shot in the leg.
Legs of steel, baby. A lot of Zergs roach bane allin as a response to 3CC because it is very, very difficult to compete in a macro game if Terran opens that way. Hellbat drop isn't a response to anything...it's just an abuse of a highly damaging unit composition with a large success rate even if scouted. Not to mention that it is in no means all-in, - and that it does considerable damage even if it is scouted in the form of pulling all your drones, and overcommitting to defense early in the game. And that T can do this off the back of a 3rd CC (if he wants to be safe he can do it with 2 and still be ahead).
Cause and effect are a bit different.
You're like.. implying terrans have the same means of reacting to things that zerg do. We don't. You choose an opener based on what you think you're opponent will do and what gives the best followthroughs/% to that. You don't react, because you can't react.
It's not an advantage, no matter how much you try to spin it.
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Hellbats are far worse because SC2 has a much higher economy and production output compared to BW. Thus you can mass produce them FAR EASIER than you can Vultures (Reactors did not exist in BW). Hellbats are far worse because of the "unit delivery system" called the Medivac with its speed boost which makes the whole thing pretty safe to pull off.
Hellbat drops are not "totally IMBA" just "too efficient for the cost / risk involved". Just watch the Moonglade vs Sound games from MLG day 2 ... Zerg defends 3-4 DOUBLE MEDIVAC drops perfectly without losing much and yet the 5th drop starts killing stuff eventually and the four completely failed (including two dead Medivacs every time) did not put the Terran back one bit.
The thing about Hellbats which you totally ignore is that they alone can not win the game and the rest of the Terran army is rather poor against whatever Zerg and Protoss can pull off. Hellbat drops are like Banelings ... you HAVE TO defend perfectly against them and the full load of microing is put on the defender. Terrible way to design a strategy game, because the attacker should be required to micro and then rewarded for being better than the defender, but instead Blizzard designed a game where the attacker has to use almost no micro while the defender has only half a second to react or lose a big chunk.
So in the spirit of your last line ... stop lying to yourself ...
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
Well, that works too. Not that I disagree with it, just cause and effect are a bit different.
And also success rates. And the whole entertainment factor.
And you being shot in the leg.
Legs of steel, baby. A lot of Zergs roach bane allin as a response to 3CC because it is very, very difficult to compete in a macro game if Terran opens that way. Hellbat drop isn't a response to anything...it's just an abuse of a highly damaging unit composition with a large success rate even if scouted. Not to mention that it is in no means all-in, - and that it does considerable damage even if it is scouted in the form of pulling all your drones, and overcommitting to defense early in the game. And that T can do this off the back of a 3rd CC (if he wants to be safe he can do it with 2 and still be ahead).
Cause and effect are a bit different.
You're like.. implying terrans have the same means of reacting to things that zerg do. We don't. You choose an opener based on what you think you're opponent will do and what gives the best followthroughs/% to that. You don't react, because you can't react.
It's not an advantage, no matter how much you try to spin it.
But the good thing is that the units you always make can deal with everything zerg has. If zerg has the wrong composition he just dies. That is the good thing about being unable to react or not having to react would be the right way to put it. (i know you need a tanks against roach all-in, but thats basically the only exception)
On July 01 2013 03:14 Rabiator wrote: Hellbat drops are like Banelings ... you HAVE TO defend perfectly against them and the full load of microing is put on the defender. Terrible way to design a strategy game, because the attacker should be required to micro and then rewarded for being better than the defender, but instead Blizzard designed a game where the attacker has to use almost no micro while the defender has only half a second to react or lose a big chunk.
Except that's exactly what terran needed. We wouldn't see any new foreign terrans if it wasn't for units like widow mine or hellbat.
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
Well, that works too. Not that I disagree with it, just cause and effect are a bit different.
And also success rates. And the whole entertainment factor.
And you being shot in the leg.
Legs of steel, baby. A lot of Zergs roach bane allin as a response to 3CC because it is very, very difficult to compete in a macro game if Terran opens that way. Hellbat drop isn't a response to anything...it's just an abuse of a highly damaging unit composition with a large success rate even if scouted. Not to mention that it is in no means all-in, - and that it does considerable damage even if it is scouted in the form of pulling all your drones, and overcommitting to defense early in the game. And that T can do this off the back of a 3rd CC (if he wants to be safe he can do it with 2 and still be ahead).
Cause and effect are a bit different.
You're like.. implying terrans have the same means of reacting to things that zerg do. We don't. You choose an opener based on what you think you're opponent will do and what gives the best followthroughs/% to that. You don't react, because you can't react.
It's not an advantage, no matter how much you try to spin it.
Don't be ridiculous Terran have plenty of means of reacting to what other players do and the best ones will do so. It's just that you can get so far without doing so, so a lot of players are lazy. How do you think T players hold roach/bane allins? Reacting...or getting lucky.
You don't react because you choose not to react. You have all the tools needed to do so.
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Vultures can in no way be compared to hellbats. They were flimsy, barely tickled large units and did not do splash damage.
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
Because winning a macro game against terran has become incredibly hard due to the cost effectiveness of bio-mine. So zergs have to turn into early roach play before the terran can get all his production up.
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Vultures can in no way be compared to hellbats. They were flimsy, barely tickled large units and did not do splash damage.
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
Because winning a macro game against terran has become incredibly hard due to the cost effectiveness of bio-mine. So zergs have to turn into early roach play before the terran can get all his production up.
I don't think that has anything to do with it. Roach aggression is just incredibly strong since Terrans play super greedy to try and keep up with Zerg economy. No reason not to do it when the only likely defence is a handful of Marines and a couple of Marauders.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Hellbat couldn't be imba in TvT because it's TvT -_-. It just makes the MU a little stale.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because Zerg/Protoss have much better tools to handle them?
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
Well, that works too. Not that I disagree with it, just cause and effect are a bit different.
And also success rates. And the whole entertainment factor.
And you being shot in the leg.
Legs of steel, baby. A lot of Zergs roach bane allin as a response to 3CC because it is very, very difficult to compete in a macro game if Terran opens that way. Hellbat drop isn't a response to anything...it's just an abuse of a highly damaging unit composition with a large success rate even if scouted. Not to mention that it is in no means all-in, - and that it does considerable damage even if it is scouted in the form of pulling all your drones, and overcommitting to defense early in the game. And that T can do this off the back of a 3rd CC (if he wants to be safe he can do it with 2 and still be ahead).
Cause and effect are a bit different.
You're like.. implying terrans have the same means of reacting to things that zerg do. We don't. You choose an opener based on what you think you're opponent will do and what gives the best followthroughs/% to that. You don't react, because you can't react.
It's not an advantage, no matter how much you try to spin it.
Don't be ridiculous Terran have plenty of means of reacting to what other players do and the best ones will do so. It's just that you can get so far without doing so, so a lot of players are lazy. How do you think T players hold roach/bane allins? Reacting...or getting lucky.
You don't react because you choose not to react. You have all the tools needed to do so.
you know why even the best terrans like innovation and flash regularly lose to roach/bane allins? Because the time terran needs to react is very high, so if you want to react to something, you have to scout it way before it hits you. Ofc it's possible. but depending on your build, seeing roaches leaving the zerg natural may be way too late for excample. There is no terran in the world right now, that looks untouchable to allin play and that has a reason.
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
Well, that works too. Not that I disagree with it, just cause and effect are a bit different.
And also success rates. And the whole entertainment factor.
And you being shot in the leg.
Legs of steel, baby. A lot of Zergs roach bane allin as a response to 3CC because it is very, very difficult to compete in a macro game if Terran opens that way. Hellbat drop isn't a response to anything...it's just an abuse of a highly damaging unit composition with a large success rate even if scouted. Not to mention that it is in no means all-in, - and that it does considerable damage even if it is scouted in the form of pulling all your drones, and overcommitting to defense early in the game. And that T can do this off the back of a 3rd CC (if he wants to be safe he can do it with 2 and still be ahead).
Cause and effect are a bit different.
You're like.. implying terrans have the same means of reacting to things that zerg do. We don't. You choose an opener based on what you think you're opponent will do and what gives the best followthroughs/% to that. You don't react, because you can't react.
It's not an advantage, no matter how much you try to spin it.
Don't be ridiculous Terran have plenty of means of reacting to what other players do and the best ones will do so. It's just that you can get so far without doing so, so a lot of players are lazy. How do you think T players hold roach/bane allins? Reacting...or getting lucky.
You don't react because you choose not to react. You have all the tools needed to do so.
you know why even the best terrans like innovation and flash regularly lose to roach/bane allins? Because the time terran needs to react is very high, so if you want to react to something, you have to scout it way before it hits you. Ofc it's possible. but depending on your build, seeing roaches leaving the zerg natural may be way too late for excample. There is no terran in the world right now, that looks untouchable to allin play and that has a reason.
You dont see any T untouchable to roach/bane allin because T is super greedy and cutting every corner possible. Innovation looked solid recently when he started to incorporate a siege tank into his early play.
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
Well, that works too. Not that I disagree with it, just cause and effect are a bit different.
And also success rates. And the whole entertainment factor.
And you being shot in the leg.
Legs of steel, baby. A lot of Zergs roach bane allin as a response to 3CC because it is very, very difficult to compete in a macro game if Terran opens that way. Hellbat drop isn't a response to anything...it's just an abuse of a highly damaging unit composition with a large success rate even if scouted. Not to mention that it is in no means all-in, - and that it does considerable damage even if it is scouted in the form of pulling all your drones, and overcommitting to defense early in the game. And that T can do this off the back of a 3rd CC (if he wants to be safe he can do it with 2 and still be ahead).
Cause and effect are a bit different.
You're like.. implying terrans have the same means of reacting to things that zerg do. We don't. You choose an opener based on what you think you're opponent will do and what gives the best followthroughs/% to that. You don't react, because you can't react.
It's not an advantage, no matter how much you try to spin it.
Don't be ridiculous Terran have plenty of means of reacting to what other players do and the best ones will do so. It's just that you can get so far without doing so, so a lot of players are lazy. How do you think T players hold roach/bane allins? Reacting...or getting lucky.
You don't react because you choose not to react. You have all the tools needed to do so.
you know why even the best terrans like innovation and flash regularly lose to roach/bane allins? Because the time terran needs to react is very high, so if you want to react to something, you have to scout it way before it hits you. Ofc it's possible. but depending on your build, seeing roaches leaving the zerg natural may be way too late for excample. There is no terran in the world right now, that looks untouchable to allin play and that has a reason.
You dont see any T untouchable to roach/bane allin because T is super greedy and cutting every corner possible. Innovation looked solid recently when he started to incorporate a siege tank into his early play.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
common misconception. just because terran doesn't win everything doesn't mean hellbats are not imba. going by that logic, warp-in-Storms, were balanced in the first gsl seasons because protoss didn't win shit back then...
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
Well, that works too. Not that I disagree with it, just cause and effect are a bit different.
And also success rates. And the whole entertainment factor.
And you being shot in the leg.
Legs of steel, baby. A lot of Zergs roach bane allin as a response to 3CC because it is very, very difficult to compete in a macro game if Terran opens that way. Hellbat drop isn't a response to anything...it's just an abuse of a highly damaging unit composition with a large success rate even if scouted. Not to mention that it is in no means all-in, - and that it does considerable damage even if it is scouted in the form of pulling all your drones, and overcommitting to defense early in the game. And that T can do this off the back of a 3rd CC (if he wants to be safe he can do it with 2 and still be ahead).
Cause and effect are a bit different.
You're like.. implying terrans have the same means of reacting to things that zerg do. We don't. You choose an opener based on what you think you're opponent will do and what gives the best followthroughs/% to that. You don't react, because you can't react.
It's not an advantage, no matter how much you try to spin it.
Don't be ridiculous Terran have plenty of means of reacting to what other players do and the best ones will do so. It's just that you can get so far without doing so, so a lot of players are lazy. How do you think T players hold roach/bane allins? Reacting...or getting lucky.
You don't react because you choose not to react. You have all the tools needed to do so.
you know why even the best terrans like innovation and flash regularly lose to roach/bane allins? Because the time terran needs to react is very high, so if you want to react to something, you have to scout it way before it hits you. Ofc it's possible. but depending on your build, seeing roaches leaving the zerg natural may be way too late for excample. There is no terran in the world right now, that looks untouchable to allin play and that has a reason.
You dont see any T untouchable to roach/bane allin because T is super greedy and cutting every corner possible. Innovation looked solid recently when he started to incorporate a siege tank into his early play.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
Considering Innovation is arguably the best Starcraft 2 player in the world and Flash is the best player to ever play an RTS (slowly increasing his already high SC2 level) I wouldn't really say that's surprising. I don't think it'd matter what race they played, with the amount they practice they'd still be the best.
Also they're not unstoppable. Soulkey beat Innovation in the WCS Korea Season 1 finals don't forget.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
Flash hasn't even made it past the ro16 code S yet (guess premier league now). Innovation looked unstoppable but don't forget he did lose to soulkey in the finals of season 1.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.
Well 7 out of 8 terrans made it into the OSL ro16, and it took the best protoss in the world to ensure it's not 8 out of 8.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.
I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT'
I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops?
I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.
I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT'
I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops?
I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem.
A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min. Srsly guise, Srsly
On June 30 2013 22:06 Reborn8u wrote: Also, I don't see how anyone can call a terran greedy for building a 3rd cc in base, when his zerg opponent is already droning a 3rd, or a protoss on 2 bases is already producing tier 3 tech (colossus or storm), yet we hear this called "greedy" all the time.
Wait what? Safely teching up to what Protoss needs in order to secure a third without dying horribly is playing greedy? You can't get a third before then without taking a huge risk.
If you don't have that splash you die horribly to just about anything if they decide to punish it...
On June 30 2013 22:06 Reborn8u wrote: Also, I don't see how anyone can call a terran greedy for building a 3rd cc in base, when his zerg opponent is already droning a 3rd, or a protoss on 2 bases is already producing tier 3 tech (colossus or storm), yet we hear this called "greedy" all the time.
Wait what? Safely teching up to what Protoss needs in order to secure a third without dying horribly is playing greedy? You can't get a third before then without taking a huge risk.
If you don't have that splash you die horribly to just about anything if they decide to punish it...
Voidray-based Stargate play seems to do the job as well, but that is besides the point. Especially in the current map pool Protoss have a hard time taking a third if the Zerg does not want to allow for it. Staying on low tech units to have enough army to expand and then being forced to trade inefficient against a Zerg that already has a third up does not really work out. Maybe it is greedy to tech on two bases, but there seems to be no alternative for taking a third.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.
Well 7 out of 8 terrans made it into the OSL ro16, and it took the best protoss in the world to ensure it's not 8 out of 8.
Honestly though I would say Maru was only surprise of the terrans to make Ro16. I would also accept Supernova as a light surprise but I figured it would be Parting and any of the 3 to make it out of that group (BO1 is weird).
Hellbat drops are making meta pretty stale atm. I mean it isn't near as stale as it was when it was zerg turtling to blord infestor but it is pretty boring to go "well the terran is going to hellbat drop". The opening is too common now. Also I find it really dumb when you see a Terran behind and they just keep hellbat dropping and then one drop is super successful and the terran is back in the game.
On July 02 2013 03:14 QQKachoo wrote: Hellbat drops are making meta pretty stale atm. I mean it isn't near as stale as it was when it was zerg turtling to blord infestor but it is pretty boring to go "well the terran is going to hellbat drop". The opening is too common now. Also I find it really dumb when you see a Terran behind and they just keep hellbat dropping and then one drop is super successful and the terran is back in the game.
Let's be fair, however - it's also true that a Zerg or Protoss player can be behind and just keep attempting Baneling/Muta plays (burrowed Baneling mines, Mutalisk run-bys into expansion) or Templar storms (zoning with Psionic Storm), and all it takes is one good hit from that to put them right back in it (see every comeback PvT game ever, Symbol v Bomber for Baneling mines, etc.). Any time you have a high-damage unit in a good place, there's a potential for a face-wrecking amount of disruption to your opponent that can give you an edge - that's why Colossi are great defensive AND offensive tools in PvT, that's why Storm is super hard to play against, and that's why the new HotS Mutalisks are incredibly annoying to try and move out against.
I think we've probably gotten a bit caught up in bandwagon effects with Hellbats. Everyone and their mother started to get Hellbat dropped, and it wasn't a good feeling to lose to it, so now there's no verbal defense to any proposition that doesn't involved heavily nerfing them. For the record, I think there could be tweaks to them, but I don't believe they're anywhere near as overpowered as the vast majority of casual players seem to think they are.
On July 02 2013 03:14 QQKachoo wrote: Hellbat drops are making meta pretty stale atm. I mean it isn't near as stale as it was when it was zerg turtling to blord infestor but it is pretty boring to go "well the terran is going to hellbat drop". The opening is too common now. Also I find it really dumb when you see a Terran behind and they just keep hellbat dropping and then one drop is super successful and the terran is back in the game.
Let's be fair, however - it's also true that a Zerg or Protoss player can be behind and just keep attempting Baneling/Muta plays (burrowed Baneling mines, Mutalisk run-bys into expansion) or Templar storms (zoning with Psionic Storm), and all it takes is one good hit from that to put them right back in it (see every comeback PvT game ever, Symbol v Bomber for Baneling mines, etc.). Any time you have a high-damage unit in a good place, there's a potential for a face-wrecking amount of disruption to your opponent that can give you an edge - that's why Colossi are great defensive AND offensive tools in PvT, that's why Storm is super hard to play against, and that's why the new HotS Mutalisks are incredibly annoying to try and move out against.
I think we've probably gotten a bit caught up in bandwagon effects with Hellbats. Everyone and their mother started to get Hellbat dropped, and it wasn't a good feeling to lose to it, so now there's no verbal defense to any proposition that doesn't involved heavily nerfing them. For the record, I think there could be tweaks to them, but I don't believe they're anywhere near as overpowered as the vast majority of casual players seem to think they are.
I think they need to have the bio tag removed. Maybe the damage changed to have full damage with blue flame upgrade but I am not sure about that. But overall I think the bio tag needs to be removed.
On July 02 2013 03:14 QQKachoo wrote: Hellbat drops are making meta pretty stale atm. I mean it isn't near as stale as it was when it was zerg turtling to blord infestor but it is pretty boring to go "well the terran is going to hellbat drop". The opening is too common now. Also I find it really dumb when you see a Terran behind and they just keep hellbat dropping and then one drop is super successful and the terran is back in the game.
Let's be fair, however - it's also true that a Zerg or Protoss player can be behind and just keep attempting Baneling/Muta plays (burrowed Baneling mines, Mutalisk run-bys into expansion) or Templar storms (zoning with Psionic Storm), and all it takes is one good hit from that to put them right back in it (see every comeback PvT game ever, Symbol v Bomber for Baneling mines, etc.). Any time you have a high-damage unit in a good place, there's a potential for a face-wrecking amount of disruption to your opponent that can give you an edge - that's why Colossi are great defensive AND offensive tools in PvT, that's why Storm is super hard to play against, and that's why the new HotS Mutalisks are incredibly annoying to try and move out against.
I think we've probably gotten a bit caught up in bandwagon effects with Hellbats. Everyone and their mother started to get Hellbat dropped, and it wasn't a good feeling to lose to it, so now there's no verbal defense to any proposition that doesn't involved heavily nerfing them. For the record, I think there could be tweaks to them, but I don't believe they're anywhere near as overpowered as the vast majority of casual players seem to think they are.
I think they need to have the bio tag removed. Maybe the damage changed to have full damage with blue flame upgrade but I am not sure about that. But overall I think the bio tag needs to be removed.
They are super late firebats which trade stim for higher HP and flexibility (transformers). Will we see pros in the future utilizing this flexibility?
On July 02 2013 03:14 QQKachoo wrote: Hellbat drops are making meta pretty stale atm. I mean it isn't near as stale as it was when it was zerg turtling to blord infestor but it is pretty boring to go "well the terran is going to hellbat drop". The opening is too common now. Also I find it really dumb when you see a Terran behind and they just keep hellbat dropping and then one drop is super successful and the terran is back in the game.
Let's be fair, however - it's also true that a Zerg or Protoss player can be behind and just keep attempting Baneling/Muta plays (burrowed Baneling mines, Mutalisk run-bys into expansion) or Templar storms (zoning with Psionic Storm), and all it takes is one good hit from that to put them right back in it (see every comeback PvT game ever, Symbol v Bomber for Baneling mines, etc.). Any time you have a high-damage unit in a good place, there's a potential for a face-wrecking amount of disruption to your opponent that can give you an edge - that's why Colossi are great defensive AND offensive tools in PvT, that's why Storm is super hard to play against, and that's why the new HotS Mutalisks are incredibly annoying to try and move out against.
I think we've probably gotten a bit caught up in bandwagon effects with Hellbats. Everyone and their mother started to get Hellbat dropped, and it wasn't a good feeling to lose to it, so now there's no verbal defense to any proposition that doesn't involved heavily nerfing them. For the record, I think there could be tweaks to them, but I don't believe they're anywhere near as overpowered as the vast majority of casual players seem to think they are.
Comparing those things just doesn´t work. None of those are as cheap and fast as hellbat drops. None of them can cripple yo eco in the early game and basically lose you the game. The problem is that there is not much of a commitment for terran to something that can totally destroy the other player. Early game aggro banelings on the other hand are a huge commitment as you need them a lot so you even have a chance to reach the terran´s economy.
On July 02 2013 03:14 QQKachoo wrote: Hellbat drops are making meta pretty stale atm. I mean it isn't near as stale as it was when it was zerg turtling to blord infestor but it is pretty boring to go "well the terran is going to hellbat drop". The opening is too common now. Also I find it really dumb when you see a Terran behind and they just keep hellbat dropping and then one drop is super successful and the terran is back in the game.
Let's be fair, however - it's also true that a Zerg or Protoss player can be behind and just keep attempting Baneling/Muta plays (burrowed Baneling mines, Mutalisk run-bys into expansion) or Templar storms (zoning with Psionic Storm), and all it takes is one good hit from that to put them right back in it (see every comeback PvT game ever, Symbol v Bomber for Baneling mines, etc.). Any time you have a high-damage unit in a good place, there's a potential for a face-wrecking amount of disruption to your opponent that can give you an edge - that's why Colossi are great defensive AND offensive tools in PvT, that's why Storm is super hard to play against, and that's why the new HotS Mutalisks are incredibly annoying to try and move out against.
Bad comparisons.
1) Baneling mines may have that instant burst but they don't have the mobility / durability of hellbats. Furthermore, Terrans usually scan typical baneling mine spots even if they aren't looking for baneling mines because Terrans like to scan ahead of their army to find zerg army => they will usually find baneling mines.
2) "Mutalisk runbys" are incredibly risky against Terran (mines) and are easily countered vs Protoss who go phoenix.
3) Mutalisks, baneling mines, and high templar all require a lot of tech and come very late in the game. Hellbats drops can be a very safe opening build.
4) Baneling mines and high templar typically only deal damage to the army. Losing half your army in the mid game is not as devastating as losing 10 workers in the early game.
I think we've probably gotten a bit caught up in bandwagon effects with Hellbats. Everyone and their mother started to get Hellbat dropped, and it wasn't a good feeling to lose to it, so now there's no verbal defense to any proposition that doesn't involved heavily nerfing them. For the record, I think there could be tweaks to them, but I don't believe they're anywhere near as overpowered as the vast majority of casual players seem to think they are.
Okay but pro terran players believe they are imbalanced.
Protoss can't really start storm dropping to kill scv's and drones to come back or whatever because if you are behind you just don't have the economy to afford that. Storm drops are a huge investment, while hellbat drops aren't, so that's also an incorrect comparison.
On July 02 2013 03:14 QQKachoo wrote: Hellbat drops are making meta pretty stale atm. I mean it isn't near as stale as it was when it was zerg turtling to blord infestor but it is pretty boring to go "well the terran is going to hellbat drop". The opening is too common now. Also I find it really dumb when you see a Terran behind and they just keep hellbat dropping and then one drop is super successful and the terran is back in the game.
Let's be fair, however - it's also true that a Zerg or Protoss player can be behind and just keep attempting Baneling/Muta plays (burrowed Baneling mines, Mutalisk run-bys into expansion) or Templar storms (zoning with Psionic Storm), and all it takes is one good hit from that to put them right back in it (see every comeback PvT game ever, Symbol v Bomber for Baneling mines, etc.). Any time you have a high-damage unit in a good place, there's a potential for a face-wrecking amount of disruption to your opponent that can give you an edge - that's why Colossi are great defensive AND offensive tools in PvT, that's why Storm is super hard to play against, and that's why the new HotS Mutalisks are incredibly annoying to try and move out against.
Bad comparisons.
1) Baneling mines may have that instant burst but they don't have the mobility / durability of hellbats. Furthermore, Terrans usually scan typical baneling mine spots even if they aren't looking for baneling mines because Terrans like to scan ahead of their army to find zerg army => they will usually find baneling mines.
2) "Mutalisk runbys" are incredibly risky against Terran (mines) and are easily countered vs Protoss who go phoenix.
3) Mutalisks, baneling mines, and high templar all require a lot of tech and come very late in the game. Hellbats drops can be a very safe opening build.
4) Baneling mines and high templar typically only deal damage to the army. Losing half your army in the mid game is not as devastating as losing 10 workers in the early game.
I think we've probably gotten a bit caught up in bandwagon effects with Hellbats. Everyone and their mother started to get Hellbat dropped, and it wasn't a good feeling to lose to it, so now there's no verbal defense to any proposition that doesn't involved heavily nerfing them. For the record, I think there could be tweaks to them, but I don't believe they're anywhere near as overpowered as the vast majority of casual players seem to think they are.
Okay but pro terran players believe they are imbalanced.
About 2), 3) and 4)...
2) It's not that risky vs terran. You can visually see the burrowed mine. If mines didn't leave visual cues then it would be incredibly risky but right now if you have good vision, you can keep your mutalisk harass force alive.
3) Mutalisks are mid game unit, they typically come in mid game. Same for templar tech outside of TvP because potential mine drop forces protoss to either go robo or stargate for detection, which delays templar tech.
4) Can you show us a replay where the defending player made resonable precautions vs hellbat drop and still lost 10 workers in the early game? It delays mining and can nab 2 ~ 4 workers but 10 workers killed in the early game sounds like the defender didn't really bother defending.
Edit: But to be fair the original comparison to baneling mines and storm is indeed bit off because whatever the reasons are, those two haven't seen much use in killing the economy. Maybe with warp prism speed buff, storm drop with zealot warp in harass may become a thing now but they aren't part of the meta yet so the comparison is indeed bit off.
On July 02 2013 03:14 QQKachoo wrote: Hellbat drops are making meta pretty stale atm. I mean it isn't near as stale as it was when it was zerg turtling to blord infestor but it is pretty boring to go "well the terran is going to hellbat drop". The opening is too common now. Also I find it really dumb when you see a Terran behind and they just keep hellbat dropping and then one drop is super successful and the terran is back in the game.
Let's be fair, however - it's also true that a Zerg or Protoss player can be behind and just keep attempting Baneling/Muta plays (burrowed Baneling mines, Mutalisk run-bys into expansion) or Templar storms (zoning with Psionic Storm), and all it takes is one good hit from that to put them right back in it (see every comeback PvT game ever, Symbol v Bomber for Baneling mines, etc.). Any time you have a high-damage unit in a good place, there's a potential for a face-wrecking amount of disruption to your opponent that can give you an edge - that's why Colossi are great defensive AND offensive tools in PvT, that's why Storm is super hard to play against, and that's why the new HotS Mutalisks are incredibly annoying to try and move out against.
Bad comparisons.
1) Baneling mines may have that instant burst but they don't have the mobility / durability of hellbats. Furthermore, Terrans usually scan typical baneling mine spots even if they aren't looking for baneling mines because Terrans like to scan ahead of their army to find zerg army => they will usually find baneling mines.
2) "Mutalisk runbys" are incredibly risky against Terran (mines) and are easily countered vs Protoss who go phoenix.
3) Mutalisks, baneling mines, and high templar all require a lot of tech and come very late in the game. Hellbats drops can be a very safe opening build.
4) Baneling mines and high templar typically only deal damage to the army. Losing half your army in the mid game is not as devastating as losing 10 workers in the early game.
I think we've probably gotten a bit caught up in bandwagon effects with Hellbats. Everyone and their mother started to get Hellbat dropped, and it wasn't a good feeling to lose to it, so now there's no verbal defense to any proposition that doesn't involved heavily nerfing them. For the record, I think there could be tweaks to them, but I don't believe they're anywhere near as overpowered as the vast majority of casual players seem to think they are.
Okay but pro terran players believe they are imbalanced.
About 2), 3) and 4)...
2) It's not that risky vs terran. You can visually see the burrowed mine. If mines didn't leave visual cues then it would be incredibly risky but right now if you have good vision, you can keep your mutalisk harass force alive.
3) Mutalisks are mid game unit, they typically come in mid game. Same for templar tech outside of TvP because potential mine drop forces protoss to either go robo or stargate for detection, which delays templar tech.
4) Can you show us a replay where the defending player made resonable precautions vs hellbat drop and still lost 10 workers in the early game? It delays mining and can nab 2 ~ 4 workers but 10 workers killed in the early game sounds like the defender didn't really bother defending.
Edit: But to be fair the original comparison to baneling mines and storm is indeed bit off because whatever the reasons are, those two haven't seen much use in killing the economy. Maybe with warp prism speed buff, storm drop with zealot warp in harass may become a thing now but they aren't part of the meta yet so the comparison is indeed bit off.
You seem to think mines are easily spotted and that the player will focus only on that 100% of the time while moving their mutalisk army. You also do not calculate lost mining time which always happens. Even with all precautions you still need to pull your workers every time early in the game, and if the opponent is good he can still do damage to you then and/or just evacuate and try later. Not saying anything to either side but you need to calculate everything into your argument to make it objective.
First of all... Yes, if we look at the hellbat drops as an harass opening, from a damage output perspective - its pretty awesome, but as i said, there are many other damage output opening, that have way greater potential such as 4 hellions drops, or blue flame hellions drops, and even cloak banshees in certain situations are also have greater harass potential.
So why we still see the Terrans favoring hellbat drops? the reason lies not on the harass potential but on the speed and cost effiencey vs the defence cost and speed.
On July 02 2013 03:14 QQKachoo wrote: Hellbat drops are making meta pretty stale atm. I mean it isn't near as stale as it was when it was zerg turtling to blord infestor but it is pretty boring to go "well the terran is going to hellbat drop". The opening is too common now. Also I find it really dumb when you see a Terran behind and they just keep hellbat dropping and then one drop is super successful and the terran is back in the game.
Let's be fair, however - it's also true that a Zerg or Protoss player can be behind and just keep attempting Baneling/Muta plays (burrowed Baneling mines, Mutalisk run-bys into expansion) or Templar storms (zoning with Psionic Storm), and all it takes is one good hit from that to put them right back in it (see every comeback PvT game ever, Symbol v Bomber for Baneling mines, etc.). Any time you have a high-damage unit in a good place, there's a potential for a face-wrecking amount of disruption to your opponent that can give you an edge - that's why Colossi are great defensive AND offensive tools in PvT, that's why Storm is super hard to play against, and that's why the new HotS Mutalisks are incredibly annoying to try and move out against.
I think we've probably gotten a bit caught up in bandwagon effects with Hellbats. Everyone and their mother started to get Hellbat dropped, and it wasn't a good feeling to lose to it, so now there's no verbal defense to any proposition that doesn't involved heavily nerfing them. For the record, I think there could be tweaks to them, but I don't believe they're anywhere near as overpowered as the vast majority of casual players seem to think they are.
I think they need to have the bio tag removed. Maybe the damage changed to have full damage with blue flame upgrade but I am not sure about that. But overall I think the bio tag needs to be removed.
That's why I brought up someone's idea that although Hellbat comes purely mech but transformation servo gives bio tag. (giving more options!)
But Let's all wait and see what would blizzard will do.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.
I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT'
I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops?
I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem.
A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min. Srsly guise, Srsly
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.
I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT'
I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops?
I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem.
A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min. Srsly guise, Srsly
The problem with that is that you have to make a coinflip ...
"Do I build three turrets for each of my bases to *maybe* prevent Medivacs getting into my base OR do I get 12 more Marines or a few more Barracks or a few Hellbats of my own for the resources?"
The thing about turrets is that they are no guarantee against Hellbat drops, because some players just come at you with two Medivacs full of Hellbats and if you arent prepared to deal with them on the ground - due to the resources NOT spent on units - you will lose. You might also be behind because you spent those resources NOT on units and NOT on increasing your production capabilities. The problem remains the same because Hellbats are still too efficient at killing clumped up units like workers because even turrets dont really deter determined drops. People might actually build a Viking to send in first and get shot down to let the Medivacs reach the mineral line for example.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.
I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT'
I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops?
I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem.
A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min. Srsly guise, Srsly
The problem with that is that you have to make a coinflip ...
"Do I build three turrets for each of my bases to *maybe* prevent Medivacs getting into my base OR do I get 12 more Marines or a few more Barracks or a few Hellbats of my own for the resources?"
The thing about turrets is that they are no guarantee against Hellbat drops, because some players just come at you with two Medivacs full of Hellbats and if you arent prepared to deal with them on the ground - due to the resources NOT spent on units - you will lose. You might also be behind because you spent those resources NOT on units and NOT on increasing your production capabilities. The problem remains the same because Hellbats are still too efficient at killing clumped up units like workers because even turrets dont really deter determined drops. People might actually build a Viking to send in first and get shot down to let the Medivacs reach the mineral line for example.
2 turrets a few marines deter drops VERY well. a dropship will die in 2.5 seconds to 2 turrets and if he afterburners into your mineral line then you run away all of your workers, have maybe a bunker with marines / marauder in it or have a few units in place and shut it down. Easy. If there are 2 drop ships some units can take care of it with the turret help easy.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.
I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT'
I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops?
I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem.
A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min. Srsly guise, Srsly
The problem with that is that you have to make a coinflip ...
"Do I build three turrets for each of my bases to *maybe* prevent Medivacs getting into my base OR do I get 12 more Marines or a few more Barracks or a few Hellbats of my own for the resources?"
The thing about turrets is that they are no guarantee against Hellbat drops, because some players just come at you with two Medivacs full of Hellbats and if you arent prepared to deal with them on the ground - due to the resources NOT spent on units - you will lose. You might also be behind because you spent those resources NOT on units and NOT on increasing your production capabilities. The problem remains the same because Hellbats are still too efficient at killing clumped up units like workers because even turrets dont really deter determined drops. People might actually build a Viking to send in first and get shot down to let the Medivacs reach the mineral line for example.
Coin flip? You are making excuses for yourself.
Aside from tech switches/bluff, there is no such thing as impossible, Terran have scouting with scan AT NO RISK TO UNITS!
Of course TvT is a coin flip when you leave ENTIRE BASES' AIRSPACE OPEN!
You are supposed to study your maps and know which side of a spawning point can be most effectively protected with Turret cover, and STRATEGICALLY place your turrets to maximise airspace protection to cost ratio not whine whine whine.
It's like complaining REAVERS/Spider mine drops/etc ARE TOO GOOD!!
David Kim needs to come out into the open when the hellbat drop question comes up, wear shades and say, "Deal with it".
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.
I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT'
I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops?
I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem.
A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min. Srsly guise, Srsly
The problem with that is that you have to make a coinflip ...
"Do I build three turrets for each of my bases to *maybe* prevent Medivacs getting into my base OR do I get 12 more Marines or a few more Barracks or a few Hellbats of my own for the resources?"
The thing about turrets is that they are no guarantee against Hellbat drops, because some players just come at you with two Medivacs full of Hellbats and if you arent prepared to deal with them on the ground - due to the resources NOT spent on units - you will lose. You might also be behind because you spent those resources NOT on units and NOT on increasing your production capabilities. The problem remains the same because Hellbats are still too efficient at killing clumped up units like workers because even turrets dont really deter determined drops. People might actually build a Viking to send in first and get shot down to let the Medivacs reach the mineral line for example.
2 turrets a few marines deter drops VERY well. a dropship will die in 2.5 seconds to 2 turrets and if he afterburners into your mineral line then you run away all of your workers, have maybe a bunker with marines / marauder in it or have a few units in place and shut it down. Easy. If there are 2 drop ships some units can take care of it with the turret help easy.
As I said above ... there are ways to "counter" turrets by giving them an alternative target. You are also ignoring the fact that you wont have 2 turrets in range because the bases are pretty huge on some maps.
The way I would do it is to use the leading Medivac to boost right on top of the Turret and then drop the Hellbats there. If the Medivac dies doesnt matter, the turret will die too. At the same time the second Mefivac can run past and unload at the workers (out of turret range). Sure that wont work everywhere, but the super efficiency of the Hellbat still requires you to pull your workers quickly or lose a whole bunch of them. Hellbats are also good enough at killing turrets and then the second wave of double drop comes before you have rebuilt them.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.
I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT'
I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops?
I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem.
A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min. Srsly guise, Srsly
The problem with that is that you have to make a coinflip ...
"Do I build three turrets for each of my bases to *maybe* prevent Medivacs getting into my base OR do I get 12 more Marines or a few more Barracks or a few Hellbats of my own for the resources?"
The thing about turrets is that they are no guarantee against Hellbat drops, because some players just come at you with two Medivacs full of Hellbats and if you arent prepared to deal with them on the ground - due to the resources NOT spent on units - you will lose. You might also be behind because you spent those resources NOT on units and NOT on increasing your production capabilities. The problem remains the same because Hellbats are still too efficient at killing clumped up units like workers because even turrets dont really deter determined drops. People might actually build a Viking to send in first and get shot down to let the Medivacs reach the mineral line for example.
Coin flip? You are making excuses for yourself.
Aside from tech switches/bluff, there is no such thing as impossible, Terran have scouting with scan AT NO RISK TO UNITS!
Of course TvT is a coin flip when you leave ENTIRE BASES' AIRSPACE OPEN!
You are supposed to study your maps and know which side of a spawning point can be most effectively protected with Turret cover, and STRATEGICALLY place your turrets to maximise airspace protection to cost ratio not whine whine whine.
It's like complaining REAVERS/Spider mine drops/etc ARE TOO GOOD!!
David Kim needs to come out into the open when the hellbat drop question comes up, wear shades and say, "Deal with it".
The problem with a mirror matchup is that any "wasted" resource will put you behind. If the opponent knows you have built turrets he will know you have less army and come in at the front with a bigger army than you have. That is a coinflip.
Additionally you seem to be under the delusion that there is endless energy on your Orbitals and using a scan to look at one spot of the opponents base - which doesnt really guarantee you to reveal his game plan ... you only get a chance of hitting the right spot - will put you behind at the critical time when both sides are building up their production and army. In addition you also want to build lots of turrets ... so what is your army made up of then? Your opponent will have the bigger army and/or bigger production because of this and it is only when he suicides a lot of stuff into your turrets that you can "get even", but even that might not be possible. Scans LATER ON in TvT are a necessary and used thing, but not in the growth phase of the game.
Blizzard simply made Hellbats too good at killing clumped up units AND they negated the "weakness" of the unit by introducing the Medivac speed boost.
Reavers are a gamble and Spider Mines are something you need to get used to clearing.
hellbat drops are the best stategy at GM + in TvT, you almost have to get lucky to beat hellbat drops with anything thats not hellbat drops. They're super good at killing armies and hurassing. Way too good imo.
I think it is a good change to patch the Hellbat require blue flame. It is quite reasonable and can definitely tone down the whole Hellbat problem. The change itself make sense as well.
On July 02 2013 03:14 QQKachoo wrote: Hellbat drops are making meta pretty stale atm. I mean it isn't near as stale as it was when it was zerg turtling to blord infestor but it is pretty boring to go "well the terran is going to hellbat drop". The opening is too common now. Also I find it really dumb when you see a Terran behind and they just keep hellbat dropping and then one drop is super successful and the terran is back in the game.
Let's be fair, however - it's also true that a Zerg or Protoss player can be behind and just keep attempting Baneling/Muta plays (burrowed Baneling mines, Mutalisk run-bys into expansion) or Templar storms (zoning with Psionic Storm), and all it takes is one good hit from that to put them right back in it (see every comeback PvT game ever, Symbol v Bomber for Baneling mines, etc.). Any time you have a high-damage unit in a good place, there's a potential for a face-wrecking amount of disruption to your opponent that can give you an edge - that's why Colossi are great defensive AND offensive tools in PvT, that's why Storm is super hard to play against, and that's why the new HotS Mutalisks are incredibly annoying to try and move out against.
Bad comparisons.
1) Baneling mines may have that instant burst but they don't have the mobility / durability of hellbats. Furthermore, Terrans usually scan typical baneling mine spots even if they aren't looking for baneling mines because Terrans like to scan ahead of their army to find zerg army => they will usually find baneling mines.
2) "Mutalisk runbys" are incredibly risky against Terran (mines) and are easily countered vs Protoss who go phoenix.
3) Mutalisks, baneling mines, and high templar all require a lot of tech and come very late in the game. Hellbats drops can be a very safe opening build.
4) Baneling mines and high templar typically only deal damage to the army. Losing half your army in the mid game is not as devastating as losing 10 workers in the early game.
I think we've probably gotten a bit caught up in bandwagon effects with Hellbats. Everyone and their mother started to get Hellbat dropped, and it wasn't a good feeling to lose to it, so now there's no verbal defense to any proposition that doesn't involved heavily nerfing them. For the record, I think there could be tweaks to them, but I don't believe they're anywhere near as overpowered as the vast majority of casual players seem to think they are.
Okay but pro terran players believe they are imbalanced.
About 2), 3) and 4)...
2) It's not that risky vs terran. You can visually see the burrowed mine. If mines didn't leave visual cues then it would be incredibly risky but right now if you have good vision, you can keep your mutalisk harass force alive.
3) Mutalisks are mid game unit, they typically come in mid game. Same for templar tech outside of TvP because potential mine drop forces protoss to either go robo or stargate for detection, which delays templar tech.
4) Can you show us a replay where the defending player made resonable precautions vs hellbat drop and still lost 10 workers in the early game? It delays mining and can nab 2 ~ 4 workers but 10 workers killed in the early game sounds like the defender didn't really bother defending.
Edit: But to be fair the original comparison to baneling mines and storm is indeed bit off because whatever the reasons are, those two haven't seen much use in killing the economy. Maybe with warp prism speed buff, storm drop with zealot warp in harass may become a thing now but they aren't part of the meta yet so the comparison is indeed bit off.
You seem to think mines are easily spotted and that the player will focus only on that 100% of the time while moving their mutalisk army. You also do not calculate lost mining time which always happens. Even with all precautions you still need to pull your workers every time early in the game, and if the opponent is good he can still do damage to you then and/or just evacuate and try later. Not saying anything to either side but you need to calculate everything into your argument to make it objective.
I explicitly stated mining time will be lost when defending against hellbat drop so I'm not sure how much clearer I have to state that for you to claim that I spoke otherwise. There, I underlined where I said it so you won't miss it.
And mines are easily spotted. Obviously it's harder to spot a mine than say, non cloaked/burrowed units but then again that's part of the whole burrowing mechanics.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.
I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT'
I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops?
I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem.
A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min. Srsly guise, Srsly
The problem with that is that you have to make a coinflip ...
"Do I build three turrets for each of my bases to *maybe* prevent Medivacs getting into my base OR do I get 12 more Marines or a few more Barracks or a few Hellbats of my own for the resources?"
The thing about turrets is that they are no guarantee against Hellbat drops, because some players just come at you with two Medivacs full of Hellbats and if you arent prepared to deal with them on the ground - due to the resources NOT spent on units - you will lose. You might also be behind because you spent those resources NOT on units and NOT on increasing your production capabilities. The problem remains the same because Hellbats are still too efficient at killing clumped up units like workers because even turrets dont really deter determined drops. People might actually build a Viking to send in first and get shot down to let the Medivacs reach the mineral line for example.
2 turrets a few marines deter drops VERY well. a dropship will die in 2.5 seconds to 2 turrets and if he afterburners into your mineral line then you run away all of your workers, have maybe a bunker with marines / marauder in it or have a few units in place and shut it down. Easy. If there are 2 drop ships some units can take care of it with the turret help easy.
As I said above ... there are ways to "counter" turrets by giving them an alternative target. You are also ignoring the fact that you wont have 2 turrets in range because the bases are pretty huge on some maps.
The way I would do it is to use the leading Medivac to boost right on top of the Turret and then drop the Hellbats there. If the Medivac dies doesnt matter, the turret will die too. At the same time the second Mefivac can run past and unload at the workers (out of turret range). Sure that wont work everywhere, but the super efficiency of the Hellbat still requires you to pull your workers quickly or lose a whole bunch of them. Hellbats are also good enough at killing turrets and then the second wave of double drop comes before you have rebuilt them.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.
I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT'
I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops?
I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem.
A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min. Srsly guise, Srsly
The problem with that is that you have to make a coinflip ...
"Do I build three turrets for each of my bases to *maybe* prevent Medivacs getting into my base OR do I get 12 more Marines or a few more Barracks or a few Hellbats of my own for the resources?"
The thing about turrets is that they are no guarantee against Hellbat drops, because some players just come at you with two Medivacs full of Hellbats and if you arent prepared to deal with them on the ground - due to the resources NOT spent on units - you will lose. You might also be behind because you spent those resources NOT on units and NOT on increasing your production capabilities. The problem remains the same because Hellbats are still too efficient at killing clumped up units like workers because even turrets dont really deter determined drops. People might actually build a Viking to send in first and get shot down to let the Medivacs reach the mineral line for example.
Coin flip? You are making excuses for yourself.
Aside from tech switches/bluff, there is no such thing as impossible, Terran have scouting with scan AT NO RISK TO UNITS!
Of course TvT is a coin flip when you leave ENTIRE BASES' AIRSPACE OPEN!
You are supposed to study your maps and know which side of a spawning point can be most effectively protected with Turret cover, and STRATEGICALLY place your turrets to maximise airspace protection to cost ratio not whine whine whine.
It's like complaining REAVERS/Spider mine drops/etc ARE TOO GOOD!!
David Kim needs to come out into the open when the hellbat drop question comes up, wear shades and say, "Deal with it".
The problem with a mirror matchup is that any "wasted" resource will put you behind. If the opponent knows you have built turrets he will know you have less army and come in at the front with a bigger army than you have. That is a coinflip.
Additionally you seem to be under the delusion that there is endless energy on your Orbitals and using a scan to look at one spot of the opponents base - which doesnt really guarantee you to reveal his game plan ... you only get a chance of hitting the right spot - will put you behind at the critical time when both sides are building up their production and army. In addition you also want to build lots of turrets ... so what is your army made up of then? Your opponent will have the bigger army and/or bigger production because of this and it is only when he suicides a lot of stuff into your turrets that you can "get even", but even that might not be possible. Scans LATER ON in TvT are a necessary and used thing, but not in the growth phase of the game.
Blizzard simply made Hellbats too good at killing clumped up units AND they negated the "weakness" of the unit by introducing the Medivac speed boost.
Reavers are a gamble and Spider Mines are something you need to get used to clearing.
So much QQ.
You keep pulling fictional scenarios that make TWO hellbats in a medivac sound like it's the most broken sh*t since K.amulet prism HT warp ins. Keep it real, Rab, keep it real.
Two turrets and a Viking (or widow mine) costs less than a medivac and two hellbats and the armory at the 8 min mark.
Placing a turret in your mineral line is sub-optimal, as I've said before, you want the turret to MAXIMISE its firing window, that means the two inital turrets ideally do not even let the medivac drop past the ledge, thus cutting off the back section of the base. Add a w.mine between the two turrets and you've created a death trap. Turrets are range 12 vision, assuming you are well prepared for the drop (with saved camera positions), there is no reason your army would not be enroute to intercept the drop even he boosted past the turret, good splits will ensure minimal damage while focusing on the damaged medivac.
The dropping player either has to waste time skirting the edge of the bases wasting precious APM finding a gap in the back side of the base, drop second base mineral line closest to your army or takes the bait and flies into the "gap" between the turrets to slam into the WMine.
I am quite sure this is flying past your head.
Face it strategy in a strategy game is not your strong point.
On July 02 2013 15:27 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: Hellbats OP, some people in this thread are so jokes, it's really not that hard to deal with especially if you can scout.
You are right, David could lower the cost of turrets until Terran gets a clue.
Buffing turrets are a bad idea because they will effect the other match ups. The reason spore crawler buff was ok ZvZ is because only zerg have biological fliers. Making hellbats more expensive doesn't seem fair. So IMO require upgrade in armory. It will make them a bit later, and a bit more of an investment.
As part of the mech composition it fits that they would be later, as full on mech is a later comp than bio. Drops wouldn't be as fast and people would be able to prepare for defense easier. After all they will still end up costing the same during production in mid/late game.
On July 02 2013 15:37 FoxShine wrote: Buffing turrets are a bad idea because they will effect the other match ups. The reason spore crawler buff was ok ZvZ is because only zerg have biological fliers.
Why? Just because it does not seems necessary balance-wise vP/vZ doesn´t automatically mean it would give T an unfair advantage in those matchups.
On July 02 2013 15:37 FoxShine wrote: Buffing turrets are a bad idea because they will effect the other match ups. The reason spore crawler buff was ok ZvZ is because only zerg have biological fliers.
Why? Just because it does not seems necessary balance-wise vP/vZ doesn´t automatically mean it would give T an unfair advantage in those matchups.
It does affect the current meta. In TvZ, muta's are a big thing, so getting to build more turrets and earlier because they are cheaper would give T a slight edge. In TvP, turrets help against Prism harass, DTs, oracle plays, phoenix, voidray all-ins.
On July 02 2013 15:37 FoxShine wrote: Buffing turrets are a bad idea because they will effect the other match ups. The reason spore crawler buff was ok ZvZ is because only zerg have biological fliers.
Why? Just because it does not seems necessary balance-wise vP/vZ doesn´t automatically mean it would give T an unfair advantage in those matchups.
It does affect the current meta. In TvZ, muta's are a big thing, so getting to build more turrets and earlier because they are cheaper would give T a slight edge. In TvP, turrets help against Prism harass, DTs, oracle plays, phoenix, voidray all-ins.
Well, they are good AA. But would buffing them a little really swing balance in vP/vZ? Oracles are already shut down by one turret and it´s more a question of an ebay being built in time, not the turret´s cost. Warp prisms don´t depend on mineral line access, so they can hardly be shut out by turrets, anyway. Detection again is not a matter of cheaper mass turrets. I don´t remember Phoenix playing a huge role in harassment vs terran and I don´t have a problem with mobile anti-ground like Voids losing against immobile anti-air like turrets. If turrets were only buffed vs light (against light med vacs) that wouldn´t be an issue anyway. In TvZ little muta flocks are already dealt with by turrets, while huge flocks would easily overcome buffed turrets as well.
I´m not saying it would not affect TvZ/TvP at all, but I think it would impact them rather insignificantly, while contributing a lot to TvT.
I think a good idea will have to involve an upgrade required by a tech lab (This will slow down a double production of a reactor, since you'll have to get tech lab first).
Any other changes on the unit itself, imo... will ruin the unit.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.
I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT'
I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops?
I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem.
A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min. Srsly guise, Srsly
The problem with that is that you have to make a coinflip ...
"Do I build three turrets for each of my bases to *maybe* prevent Medivacs getting into my base OR do I get 12 more Marines or a few more Barracks or a few Hellbats of my own for the resources?"
The thing about turrets is that they are no guarantee against Hellbat drops, because some players just come at you with two Medivacs full of Hellbats and if you arent prepared to deal with them on the ground - due to the resources NOT spent on units - you will lose. You might also be behind because you spent those resources NOT on units and NOT on increasing your production capabilities. The problem remains the same because Hellbats are still too efficient at killing clumped up units like workers because even turrets dont really deter determined drops. People might actually build a Viking to send in first and get shot down to let the Medivacs reach the mineral line for example.
2 turrets a few marines deter drops VERY well. a dropship will die in 2.5 seconds to 2 turrets and if he afterburners into your mineral line then you run away all of your workers, have maybe a bunker with marines / marauder in it or have a few units in place and shut it down. Easy. If there are 2 drop ships some units can take care of it with the turret help easy.
As I said above ... there are ways to "counter" turrets by giving them an alternative target. You are also ignoring the fact that you wont have 2 turrets in range because the bases are pretty huge on some maps.
The way I would do it is to use the leading Medivac to boost right on top of the Turret and then drop the Hellbats there. If the Medivac dies doesnt matter, the turret will die too. At the same time the second Mefivac can run past and unload at the workers (out of turret range). Sure that wont work everywhere, but the super efficiency of the Hellbat still requires you to pull your workers quickly or lose a whole bunch of them. Hellbats are also good enough at killing turrets and then the second wave of double drop comes before you have rebuilt them.
On July 02 2013 13:36 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
On July 02 2013 12:25 Rabiator wrote:
On July 01 2013 22:11 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
On July 01 2013 12:21 SsDrKosS wrote:
On July 01 2013 08:53 TeeTS wrote:
On July 01 2013 06:39 EFermi wrote:
On July 01 2013 05:38 Greenei wrote:
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.
I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT'
I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops?
I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem.
A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min. Srsly guise, Srsly
The problem with that is that you have to make a coinflip ...
"Do I build three turrets for each of my bases to *maybe* prevent Medivacs getting into my base OR do I get 12 more Marines or a few more Barracks or a few Hellbats of my own for the resources?"
The thing about turrets is that they are no guarantee against Hellbat drops, because some players just come at you with two Medivacs full of Hellbats and if you arent prepared to deal with them on the ground - due to the resources NOT spent on units - you will lose. You might also be behind because you spent those resources NOT on units and NOT on increasing your production capabilities. The problem remains the same because Hellbats are still too efficient at killing clumped up units like workers because even turrets dont really deter determined drops. People might actually build a Viking to send in first and get shot down to let the Medivacs reach the mineral line for example.
Coin flip? You are making excuses for yourself.
Aside from tech switches/bluff, there is no such thing as impossible, Terran have scouting with scan AT NO RISK TO UNITS!
Of course TvT is a coin flip when you leave ENTIRE BASES' AIRSPACE OPEN!
You are supposed to study your maps and know which side of a spawning point can be most effectively protected with Turret cover, and STRATEGICALLY place your turrets to maximise airspace protection to cost ratio not whine whine whine.
It's like complaining REAVERS/Spider mine drops/etc ARE TOO GOOD!!
David Kim needs to come out into the open when the hellbat drop question comes up, wear shades and say, "Deal with it".
The problem with a mirror matchup is that any "wasted" resource will put you behind. If the opponent knows you have built turrets he will know you have less army and come in at the front with a bigger army than you have. That is a coinflip.
Additionally you seem to be under the delusion that there is endless energy on your Orbitals and using a scan to look at one spot of the opponents base - which doesnt really guarantee you to reveal his game plan ... you only get a chance of hitting the right spot - will put you behind at the critical time when both sides are building up their production and army. In addition you also want to build lots of turrets ... so what is your army made up of then? Your opponent will have the bigger army and/or bigger production because of this and it is only when he suicides a lot of stuff into your turrets that you can "get even", but even that might not be possible. Scans LATER ON in TvT are a necessary and used thing, but not in the growth phase of the game.
Blizzard simply made Hellbats too good at killing clumped up units AND they negated the "weakness" of the unit by introducing the Medivac speed boost.
Reavers are a gamble and Spider Mines are something you need to get used to clearing.
So much QQ.
You keep pulling fictional scenarios that make TWO hellbats in a medivac sound like it's the most broken sh*t since K.amulet prism HT warp ins. Keep it real, Rab, keep it real.
Two turrets and a Viking (or widow mine) costs less than a medivac and two hellbats and the armory at the 8 min mark.
Placing a turret in your mineral line is sub-optimal, as I've said before, you want the turret to MAXIMISE its firing window, that means the two inital turrets ideally do not even let the medivac drop past the ledge, thus cutting off the back section of the base. Add a w.mine between the two turrets and you've created a death trap. Turrets are range 12 vision, assuming you are well prepared for the drop (with saved camera positions), there is no reason your army would not be enroute to intercept the drop even he boosted past the turret, good splits will ensure minimal damage while focusing on the damaged medivac.
The dropping player either has to waste time skirting the edge of the bases wasting precious APM finding a gap in the back side of the base, drop second base mineral line closest to your army or takes the bait and flies into the "gap" between the turrets to slam into the WMine.
I am quite sure this is flying past your head.
Face it strategy in a strategy game is not your strong point.
You're saying one should just build 2-3 Turrets one the side of your base (+ you require ebay for that) + rush up to starport and get a viking out just for hopefully not letting a medivac slip past. Defending hellbat drops easily with that is very likely yes, but now consider what's unthinkable of! He does NOT hellbat drop. Gratz on being awfully far behind without even letting something happen. You just won against yourself, sure the game is not over, but you're pretty far behind. Oh you say you can scan and scout it and then just not respond like that? Ye good luck, even if the scan DOES find every information needed etc. you either have to add the ~250 minerals for the scan/mule to the defense or just for (almost) nothing and you're behind again when you're both playing standard. And talking of "precious APM" is really, really ridiculous.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellabats.
can you explain why would protoss / zerg workers should be 2 shoted while the terran ones should be 3 shoted ?
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellabats.
can you explain why would protoss / zerg workers should be 2 shoted while the terran ones should be 3 shoted ?
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellabats.
can you explain why would protoss / zerg workers should be 2 shoted while the terran ones should be 3 shoted ?
Because a SCV has 5 hp more then probes and drones.
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.
I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT'
I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops?
I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem.
A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min. Srsly guise, Srsly
The problem with that is that you have to make a coinflip ...
"Do I build three turrets for each of my bases to *maybe* prevent Medivacs getting into my base OR do I get 12 more Marines or a few more Barracks or a few Hellbats of my own for the resources?"
The thing about turrets is that they are no guarantee against Hellbat drops, because some players just come at you with two Medivacs full of Hellbats and if you arent prepared to deal with them on the ground - due to the resources NOT spent on units - you will lose. You might also be behind because you spent those resources NOT on units and NOT on increasing your production capabilities. The problem remains the same because Hellbats are still too efficient at killing clumped up units like workers because even turrets dont really deter determined drops. People might actually build a Viking to send in first and get shot down to let the Medivacs reach the mineral line for example.
2 turrets a few marines deter drops VERY well. a dropship will die in 2.5 seconds to 2 turrets and if he afterburners into your mineral line then you run away all of your workers, have maybe a bunker with marines / marauder in it or have a few units in place and shut it down. Easy. If there are 2 drop ships some units can take care of it with the turret help easy.
As I said above ... there are ways to "counter" turrets by giving them an alternative target. You are also ignoring the fact that you wont have 2 turrets in range because the bases are pretty huge on some maps.
The way I would do it is to use the leading Medivac to boost right on top of the Turret and then drop the Hellbats there. If the Medivac dies doesnt matter, the turret will die too. At the same time the second Mefivac can run past and unload at the workers (out of turret range). Sure that wont work everywhere, but the super efficiency of the Hellbat still requires you to pull your workers quickly or lose a whole bunch of them. Hellbats are also good enough at killing turrets and then the second wave of double drop comes before you have rebuilt them.
On July 02 2013 13:36 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
On July 02 2013 12:25 Rabiator wrote:
On July 01 2013 22:11 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
On July 01 2013 12:21 SsDrKosS wrote:
On July 01 2013 08:53 TeeTS wrote:
On July 01 2013 06:39 EFermi wrote:
On July 01 2013 05:38 Greenei wrote: [quote]
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.
I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT'
I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops?
I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem.
A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min. Srsly guise, Srsly
The problem with that is that you have to make a coinflip ...
"Do I build three turrets for each of my bases to *maybe* prevent Medivacs getting into my base OR do I get 12 more Marines or a few more Barracks or a few Hellbats of my own for the resources?"
The thing about turrets is that they are no guarantee against Hellbat drops, because some players just come at you with two Medivacs full of Hellbats and if you arent prepared to deal with them on the ground - due to the resources NOT spent on units - you will lose. You might also be behind because you spent those resources NOT on units and NOT on increasing your production capabilities. The problem remains the same because Hellbats are still too efficient at killing clumped up units like workers because even turrets dont really deter determined drops. People might actually build a Viking to send in first and get shot down to let the Medivacs reach the mineral line for example.
Coin flip? You are making excuses for yourself.
Aside from tech switches/bluff, there is no such thing as impossible, Terran have scouting with scan AT NO RISK TO UNITS!
Of course TvT is a coin flip when you leave ENTIRE BASES' AIRSPACE OPEN!
You are supposed to study your maps and know which side of a spawning point can be most effectively protected with Turret cover, and STRATEGICALLY place your turrets to maximise airspace protection to cost ratio not whine whine whine.
It's like complaining REAVERS/Spider mine drops/etc ARE TOO GOOD!!
David Kim needs to come out into the open when the hellbat drop question comes up, wear shades and say, "Deal with it".
The problem with a mirror matchup is that any "wasted" resource will put you behind. If the opponent knows you have built turrets he will know you have less army and come in at the front with a bigger army than you have. That is a coinflip.
Additionally you seem to be under the delusion that there is endless energy on your Orbitals and using a scan to look at one spot of the opponents base - which doesnt really guarantee you to reveal his game plan ... you only get a chance of hitting the right spot - will put you behind at the critical time when both sides are building up their production and army. In addition you also want to build lots of turrets ... so what is your army made up of then? Your opponent will have the bigger army and/or bigger production because of this and it is only when he suicides a lot of stuff into your turrets that you can "get even", but even that might not be possible. Scans LATER ON in TvT are a necessary and used thing, but not in the growth phase of the game.
Blizzard simply made Hellbats too good at killing clumped up units AND they negated the "weakness" of the unit by introducing the Medivac speed boost.
Reavers are a gamble and Spider Mines are something you need to get used to clearing.
So much QQ.
You keep pulling fictional scenarios that make TWO hellbats in a medivac sound like it's the most broken sh*t since K.amulet prism HT warp ins. Keep it real, Rab, keep it real.
Two turrets and a Viking (or widow mine) costs less than a medivac and two hellbats and the armory at the 8 min mark.
Placing a turret in your mineral line is sub-optimal, as I've said before, you want the turret to MAXIMISE its firing window, that means the two inital turrets ideally do not even let the medivac drop past the ledge, thus cutting off the back section of the base. Add a w.mine between the two turrets and you've created a death trap. Turrets are range 12 vision, assuming you are well prepared for the drop (with saved camera positions), there is no reason your army would not be enroute to intercept the drop even he boosted past the turret, good splits will ensure minimal damage while focusing on the damaged medivac.
The dropping player either has to waste time skirting the edge of the bases wasting precious APM finding a gap in the back side of the base, drop second base mineral line closest to your army or takes the bait and flies into the "gap" between the turrets to slam into the WMine.
I am quite sure this is flying past your head.
Face it strategy in a strategy game is not your strong point.
You're saying one should just build 2-3 Turrets one the side of your base (+ you require ebay for that) + rush up to starport and get a viking out just for hopefully not letting a medivac slip past. Defending hellbat drops easily with that is very likely yes, but now consider what's unthinkable of! He does NOT hellbat drop. Gratz on being awfully far behind without even letting something happen. You just won against yourself, sure the game is not over, but you're pretty far behind. Oh you say you can scan and scout it and then just not respond like that? Ye good luck, even if the scan DOES find every information needed etc. you either have to add the ~250 minerals for the scan/mule to the defense or just for (almost) nothing and you're behind again when you're both playing standard. And talking of "precious APM" is really, really ridiculous.
While I do agree hellbats might have some issues, perhaps just a unit that is too strong all-around, I dont agree that every form of harassment should be able to be stopped in an easy way. What are people expecting here? They can just leave a handful of units at a base and all of the sudden ALL harassment is totally shut down? Wow, that'd make for some pretty boring games too.
Look at it this way : turrets vs mutas are considered standard. If a race, to adapt to a certain strategy, has to do a few things that to you seem excessive, doesnt that indicate that you have been thinking inside of a little box for too long? I dont like this idea of 'everything has to be able to be solved with obvious and easy solutions' in an RTS.
To bring up your example of a TvT filled with hellbats : if 2 turrets + widow mine becomes standard, then that ALSO counts for the guy dropping the hellbats. Dropping hellbats does not mean you cant get hellbat dropped yourself, so in the end, both forms of defence would even themselves out. Building turrets when your opponent has to do the same thing doesnt put you behind. You can CHOOSE to play risky and not put them up, but then you'll get punished for that. And let's assume you went for a more economy-oriented build : what makes you believe you shouldnt put some rescources towards defence while your opponent, who did not go for an economy-oriented build, should automatically be put behind and denied any kind of chance to harass your economy while you are playing an unsafe style? Dedicate a few rescources towards defence, and you'll still be even since, again, it evens out because you went for more economy early on.
What I'd like to see is not an easy fix to all harass, but something that evens the playing field between hellbats and other terran harassment units. Right now, hellbats are becoming so strong there is almost no reason NOT to go hellbat. But I still like the fact that people now have to actually defend drops and anticipate harassment. In my eyes, leaving some units behind here and there, of putting some of your rescources into defensive buildings takes away from that 'deathball' everyone hates so much. Here I was believing people would endorse stronger forms harassment and 'battles all over the place'.
I believe having a strong harassment unit in the game is great, but I also believe there should be more risk involved, and I think that making defense in order to anticipate this kind of harassment is sign of a safe and smart player, and shouldnt be seen as some kind of excessive measure. I dont think there is anything wrong with it becoming standard. The game evolves all the time, and who are you to say that the game evolving in a game that contains lots of preemptive forms of defence is bad?
Cargo 8 for hellbats. Such an EASY solution, but no, that's too complicated it seems. I mean, it would nerf drops, and it wouldn't let the hellbat disapear. Blizzard, please...
On July 02 2013 19:48 Snowbear wrote: Cargo 8 for hellbats. Such an EASY solution, but no, that's too complicated it seems. I mean, it would nerf drops, and it wouldn't let the hellbat disapear. Blizzard, please...
that's actually ridiculous, blizzard won't do that
And why not? Because it's not realistic??? Like sc2 is such a realistic game... It would be a perfect change. Or change the heal..
But I know what Blizzard will do: they will change the damage and require blueflame upgrade. Let me tell you: we will see hellbats in tvt, but never ever again in tvp and tvz. There is just no room for 150/150 in the early game. Terran is already gas starved the first 10 minutes (reactors, techlabs, stim, shields, shells, factory, starport, medivac, upgrades, armory, etc).
I mean, the actual best solution is just removing them from the game and making tanks decent, but that won't happen, so I guess I'm fine with the hellbat.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellabats.
can you explain why would protoss / zerg workers should be 2 shoted while the terran ones should be 3 shoted ?
Because a SCV has 5 hp more then probes and drones.
I still don't get why SCV health was nerfed by 5 early on. They had the extra health since we have the only worker vunerable during building buildings and the amount of times I've lost games purely because of that nerf is really annoying.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
I dont play terran, so my opinion is probably somewhat jaded, but from what i've seen, protoss and zerg tend to defend hellbat drops well because they play inherently defensively in that phase of the game (because of their prominence in the current metagame). Terrans, especially in TvT invest a lot of early game resources into hellbat drops, and when both players do this, there is very little invested defensively. Maybe i'm just being the devils advocate, but I dont think hellbat drops are any more broken in TvT than other matchups, terrans instead of investing money to defend against them, invest resources to win games with them.
I still feel that whether the metagame develops in a way they do consistent damage or not is still not an appropriate litmus test for a unit being too strong. The fact that every terran opens almost exclusively with hellbat drops in all matchups is more worrying for build diversity, and if the metagame doesnt make shifts away from it, then perhaps thats when re-tuning the unit will become necessary imo.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellabats.
can you explain why would protoss / zerg workers should be 2 shoted while the terran ones should be 3 shoted ?
Because a SCV has 5 hp more then probes and drones.
I still don't get why SCV health was nerfed by 5 early on. They had the extra health since we have the only worker vunerable during building buildings and the amount of times I've lost games purely because of that nerf is really annoying.
Wasn't it nerfed by 15? They started out like in BW having 60hp, but it was deemed way overpowered.
Imagine having 60hp SCVs for your marine/scv all-ins.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.
I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT'
I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops?
I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem.
A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min. Srsly guise, Srsly
The problem with that is that you have to make a coinflip ...
"Do I build three turrets for each of my bases to *maybe* prevent Medivacs getting into my base OR do I get 12 more Marines or a few more Barracks or a few Hellbats of my own for the resources?"
The thing about turrets is that they are no guarantee against Hellbat drops, because some players just come at you with two Medivacs full of Hellbats and if you arent prepared to deal with them on the ground - due to the resources NOT spent on units - you will lose. You might also be behind because you spent those resources NOT on units and NOT on increasing your production capabilities. The problem remains the same because Hellbats are still too efficient at killing clumped up units like workers because even turrets dont really deter determined drops. People might actually build a Viking to send in first and get shot down to let the Medivacs reach the mineral line for example.
2 turrets a few marines deter drops VERY well. a dropship will die in 2.5 seconds to 2 turrets and if he afterburners into your mineral line then you run away all of your workers, have maybe a bunker with marines / marauder in it or have a few units in place and shut it down. Easy. If there are 2 drop ships some units can take care of it with the turret help easy.
As I said above ... there are ways to "counter" turrets by giving them an alternative target. You are also ignoring the fact that you wont have 2 turrets in range because the bases are pretty huge on some maps.
The way I would do it is to use the leading Medivac to boost right on top of the Turret and then drop the Hellbats there. If the Medivac dies doesnt matter, the turret will die too. At the same time the second Mefivac can run past and unload at the workers (out of turret range). Sure that wont work everywhere, but the super efficiency of the Hellbat still requires you to pull your workers quickly or lose a whole bunch of them. Hellbats are also good enough at killing turrets and then the second wave of double drop comes before you have rebuilt them.
On July 02 2013 13:36 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
On July 02 2013 12:25 Rabiator wrote:
On July 01 2013 22:11 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
On July 01 2013 12:21 SsDrKosS wrote:
On July 01 2013 08:53 TeeTS wrote:
On July 01 2013 06:39 EFermi wrote: [quote]
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.
I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT'
I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops?
I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem.
A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min. Srsly guise, Srsly
The problem with that is that you have to make a coinflip ...
"Do I build three turrets for each of my bases to *maybe* prevent Medivacs getting into my base OR do I get 12 more Marines or a few more Barracks or a few Hellbats of my own for the resources?"
The thing about turrets is that they are no guarantee against Hellbat drops, because some players just come at you with two Medivacs full of Hellbats and if you arent prepared to deal with them on the ground - due to the resources NOT spent on units - you will lose. You might also be behind because you spent those resources NOT on units and NOT on increasing your production capabilities. The problem remains the same because Hellbats are still too efficient at killing clumped up units like workers because even turrets dont really deter determined drops. People might actually build a Viking to send in first and get shot down to let the Medivacs reach the mineral line for example.
Coin flip? You are making excuses for yourself.
Aside from tech switches/bluff, there is no such thing as impossible, Terran have scouting with scan AT NO RISK TO UNITS!
Of course TvT is a coin flip when you leave ENTIRE BASES' AIRSPACE OPEN!
You are supposed to study your maps and know which side of a spawning point can be most effectively protected with Turret cover, and STRATEGICALLY place your turrets to maximise airspace protection to cost ratio not whine whine whine.
It's like complaining REAVERS/Spider mine drops/etc ARE TOO GOOD!!
David Kim needs to come out into the open when the hellbat drop question comes up, wear shades and say, "Deal with it".
The problem with a mirror matchup is that any "wasted" resource will put you behind. If the opponent knows you have built turrets he will know you have less army and come in at the front with a bigger army than you have. That is a coinflip.
Additionally you seem to be under the delusion that there is endless energy on your Orbitals and using a scan to look at one spot of the opponents base - which doesnt really guarantee you to reveal his game plan ... you only get a chance of hitting the right spot - will put you behind at the critical time when both sides are building up their production and army. In addition you also want to build lots of turrets ... so what is your army made up of then? Your opponent will have the bigger army and/or bigger production because of this and it is only when he suicides a lot of stuff into your turrets that you can "get even", but even that might not be possible. Scans LATER ON in TvT are a necessary and used thing, but not in the growth phase of the game.
Blizzard simply made Hellbats too good at killing clumped up units AND they negated the "weakness" of the unit by introducing the Medivac speed boost.
Reavers are a gamble and Spider Mines are something you need to get used to clearing.
So much QQ.
You keep pulling fictional scenarios that make TWO hellbats in a medivac sound like it's the most broken sh*t since K.amulet prism HT warp ins. Keep it real, Rab, keep it real.
Two turrets and a Viking (or widow mine) costs less than a medivac and two hellbats and the armory at the 8 min mark.
Placing a turret in your mineral line is sub-optimal, as I've said before, you want the turret to MAXIMISE its firing window, that means the two inital turrets ideally do not even let the medivac drop past the ledge, thus cutting off the back section of the base. Add a w.mine between the two turrets and you've created a death trap. Turrets are range 12 vision, assuming you are well prepared for the drop (with saved camera positions), there is no reason your army would not be enroute to intercept the drop even he boosted past the turret, good splits will ensure minimal damage while focusing on the damaged medivac.
The dropping player either has to waste time skirting the edge of the bases wasting precious APM finding a gap in the back side of the base, drop second base mineral line closest to your army or takes the bait and flies into the "gap" between the turrets to slam into the WMine.
I am quite sure this is flying past your head.
Face it strategy in a strategy game is not your strong point.
You're saying one should just build 2-3 Turrets one the side of your base (+ you require ebay for that) + rush up to starport and get a viking out just for hopefully not letting a medivac slip past. Defending hellbat drops easily with that is very likely yes, but now consider what's unthinkable of! He does NOT hellbat drop. Gratz on being awfully far behind without even letting something happen. You just won against yourself, sure the game is not over, but you're pretty far behind. Oh you say you can scan and scout it and then just not respond like that? Ye good luck, even if the scan DOES find every information needed etc. you either have to add the ~250 minerals for the scan/mule to the defense or just for (almost) nothing and you're behind again when you're both playing standard. And talking of "precious APM" is really, really ridiculous.
While I do agree hellbats might have some issues, perhaps just a unit that is too strong all-around, I dont agree that every form of harassment should be able to be stopped in an easy way. What are people expecting here? They can just leave a handful of units at a base and all of the sudden ALL harassment is totally shut down? Wow, that'd make for some pretty boring games too.
Look at it this way : turrets vs mutas are considered standard. If a race, to adapt to a certain strategy, has to do a few things that to you seem excessive, doesnt that indicate that you have been thinking inside of a little box for too long? I dont like this idea of 'everything has to be able to be solved with obvious and easy solutions' in an RTS.
To bring up your example of a TvT filled with hellbats : if 2 turrets + widow mine becomes standard, then that ALSO counts for the guy dropping the hellbats. Dropping hellbats does not mean you cant get hellbat dropped yourself, so in the end, both forms of defence would even themselves out. Building turrets when your opponent has to do the same thing doesnt put you behind. You can CHOOSE to play risky and not put them up, but then you'll get punished for that. And let's assume you went for a more economy-oriented build : what makes you believe you shouldnt put some rescources towards defence while your opponent, who did not go for an economy-oriented build, should automatically be put behind and denied any kind of chance to harass your economy while you are playing an unsafe style? Dedicate a few rescources towards defence, and you'll still be even since, again, it evens out because you went for more economy early on.
What I'd like to see is not an easy fix to all harass, but something that evens the playing field between hellbats and other terran harassment units. Right now, hellbats are becoming so strong there is almost no reason NOT to go hellbat. But I still like the fact that people now have to actually defend drops and anticipate harassment. In my eyes, leaving some units behind here and there, of putting some of your rescources into defensive buildings takes away from that 'deathball' everyone hates so much. Here I was believing people would endorse stronger forms harassment and 'battles all over the place'.
I believe having a strong harassment unit in the game is great, but I also believe there should be more risk involved, and I think that making defense in order to anticipate this kind of harassment is sign of a safe and smart player, and shouldnt be seen as some kind of excessive measure. I dont think there is anything wrong with it becoming standard. The game evolves all the time, and who are you to say that the game evolving in a game that contains lots of preemptive forms of defence is bad?
You understood my post. Love you long time.
Hellbat drops make good turret and viking/w.mine placement compulsory for a turtler.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellabats.
can you explain why would protoss / zerg workers should be 2 shoted while the terran ones should be 3 shoted ?
Because a SCV has 5 hp more then probes and drones.
I still don't get why SCV health was nerfed by 5 early on. They had the extra health since we have the only worker vunerable during building buildings and the amount of times I've lost games purely because of that nerf is really annoying.
Because terrans got bad habit not using workers to mine and just attack with them early on with marines. Go back and watch first season in WoL.
Unit is full of it in TvT. so annoying to use compared to the marines but it seriously shreds marines so you have to get hellbats Looking at WCS atm protoss(First) clearly dont have issues with it :o?
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
Everyone likes to talk about these upgrades like they're some sort of massive cost. 150/150 is NOTHING late game, it is simply a choice. Even early game if you're going to have them in your army consistently throughout the whole game 150/150 is nothing also. That being said I don't know what the proper change is to hellbat, but really there is only one game that I saw that they looked OP, but that was innovation playing and I don't think it was the hellbat that was OP. My point is, that an upgrade is always worth it as long as you're using it. A lot of zergs don't use overlord speed because of its upgrade cost, but for what an overlord can do with speed alone the upgrade is definitely worth it, but might not be the biggest priority.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
Everyone likes to talk about these upgrades like they're some sort of massive cost. 150/150 is NOTHING late game, it is simply a choice. Even early game if you're going to have them in your army consistently throughout the whole game 150/150 is nothing also. That being said I don't know what the proper change is to hellbat, but really there is only one game that I saw that they looked OP, but that was innovation playing and I don't think it was the hellbat that was OP. My point is, that an upgrade is always worth it as long as you're using it. A lot of zergs don't use overlord speed because of its upgrade cost, but for what an overlord can do with speed alone the upgrade is definitely worth it, but might not be the biggest priority.
I like the idea of an upgrade for the hellcats. When you think about the damage they can inflict it doesn´t seem to be in line with the commitment they require. Also it´s not like hellbats are a huge tech commitment that makes it impossible to easily switch tech paths.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway,
Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back!
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellabats.
can you explain why would protoss / zerg workers should be 2 shoted while the terran ones should be 3 shoted ?
Because a SCV has 5 hp more then probes and drones.
I still don't get why SCV health was nerfed by 5 early on. They had the extra health since we have the only worker vunerable during building buildings and the amount of times I've lost games purely because of that nerf is really annoying.
Because Marine SCV alls in were literally unstoppable.
And people still did them anyways even after the nerfs.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway,
Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back!
150/150 is HUGE, like really HUGE in the early midgame, since techlabs, reactors, armory, etc all make the terran very tight on gas. No way a single terran will be so stupid to spend 150/150 on that upgrade. Better spend it on medivacs, mines, etc. And lategame tvp, hellbats are really a waste of supply.
The damage nerf to the hellbat won't remove drops, but the hellbat in the army will disapear forever, unless it's tvt.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellabats.
can you explain why would protoss / zerg workers should be 2 shoted while the terran ones should be 3 shoted ?
Because a SCV has 5 hp more then probes and drones.
I still don't get why SCV health was nerfed by 5 early on. They had the extra health since we have the only worker vunerable during building buildings and the amount of times I've lost games purely because of that nerf is really annoying.
Because Marine SCV alls in were literally unstoppable.
And people still did them anyways even after the nerfs.
Steppes of War was a different world
Why don't they just nerf hellbats damage, buff their attack speed and leave them with the same dps. Then they 3 shot workers/marines and are worse in worker drops and worse in tvt (the 2 things highlighted as problems). They would be equally strong when mixed into armies, equally strong vs zlots and it wouldn't significantly nerf mech.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway,
Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back!
150/150 is HUGE, like really HUGE in the early midgame, since techlabs, reactors, armory, etc all make the terran very tight on gas. No way a single terran will be so stupid to spend 150/150 on that upgrade. Better spend it on medivacs, mines, etc. And lategame tvp, hellbats are really a waste of supply.
The damage nerf to the hellbat won't remove drops, but the hellbat in the army will disapear forever, unless it's tvt.
Come on. I´m ready to bet my life on it that they won´t disappear. Do you really think that they won´t still kill lings? Zealots? Why every terran units has to be useful the whole game? Already your t1 units are also your lategame units. Terran is the only race that doesn´t really need to transition cause 3-3 makes their t1 into t3.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellabats.
can you explain why would protoss / zerg workers should be 2 shoted while the terran ones should be 3 shoted ?
Because a SCV has 5 hp more then probes and drones.
I still don't get why SCV health was nerfed by 5 early on. They had the extra health since we have the only worker vunerable during building buildings and the amount of times I've lost games purely because of that nerf is really annoying.
Because Marine SCV alls in were literally unstoppable.
And people still did them anyways even after the nerfs.
In BW 60 hp was op but Probe had 1.5~1.8 range (varied) Drone had 1.5 range (but still op!)
In SC2? all workers are now melee attack (although probes are weirdly ranged) That was why SCV should be nerfed to 45
(Does anyone also know that SCVs are both repairable and recoverable like hellbats? xp They are still annoying for having extra 5 hp because they don't instantly die by WM splash just as hellbats don't die by direct WM shot! lol)
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run.
On July 02 2013 21:52 SsDrKosS wrote:
On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:
On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:
On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway,
Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back!
150/150 is HUGE, like really HUGE in the early midgame, since techlabs, reactors, armory, etc all make the terran very tight on gas. No way a single terran will be so stupid to spend 150/150 on that upgrade. Better spend it on medivacs, mines, etc. And lategame tvp, hellbats are really a waste of supply.
The damage nerf to the hellbat won't remove drops, but the hellbat in the army will disapear forever, unless it's tvt.
Come on. I´m ready to bet my life on it that they won´t disappear. Do you really think that they won´t still kill lings? Zealots? Why every terran units has to be useful the whole game? Already your t1 units are also your lategame units. Terran is the only race that doesn´t really need to transition cause 3-3 makes their t1 into t3.
-12 damage is huge bro. They will disappear for sure. And why terran needs useful units? Because otherwise we get WOL back, where the last year was dominated by zergs, and foreign pro terrans were dead. Only koreans could compete, and the top code S terrans were dropping games to foreigners like jhonnyreco. That's why there is hots, and that's why terran units shouldn't be nerfed into the ground, like it happened in WOL.
On July 02 2013 22:02 monkybone wrote: Remember, a hellbat nerf like this would probably be complemented with a buff elsewhere. DK talked about cutting the cost of banshee cloak in half, making it less of an investment in the early game. This will improve terrans harassing options.
But cutting down to half? That is just too much... maybe 150/150, 100s. Have you seen this episode yet? lol
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run.
I don't see how you can say that, to get hellbats you need to get a factory with a reactor (with the long build time and 50 gas), you also need to make tech lab (25 gas) spend 110 ingame seconds researching blue flame during which you won't be able to make many hellbats. With the armory (100 gas), you first invest 325 gas into hellbat production before you get to actually use them. And this is while you have to get medivacs out, upgrades out and vikings out. And you also need to save some gas to get ghosts soon. How exactly is this not a nerf?
At the same time, 2-base chargelot builds will hit you before you get all of that done. Against Z, it basically removes pre-muta marauder-hellbat timings. We were looking for a solution that did not affect the other races.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run.
On July 02 2013 21:52 SsDrKosS wrote:
On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:
On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:
On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway,
Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back!
150/150 is HUGE, like really HUGE in the early midgame, since techlabs, reactors, armory, etc all make the terran very tight on gas. No way a single terran will be so stupid to spend 150/150 on that upgrade. Better spend it on medivacs, mines, etc. And lategame tvp, hellbats are really a waste of supply.
The damage nerf to the hellbat won't remove drops, but the hellbat in the army will disapear forever, unless it's tvt.
Come on. I´m ready to bet my life on it that they won´t disappear. Do you really think that they won´t still kill lings? Zealots? Why every terran units has to be useful the whole game? Already your t1 units are also your lategame units. Terran is the only race that doesn´t really need to transition cause 3-3 makes their t1 into t3.
-12 damage is huge bro. They will disappear for sure. And why terran needs useful units? Because otherwise we get WOL back, where the last year was dominated by zergs, and foreign pro terrans were dead. Only koreans could compete, and the top code S terrans were dropping games to foreigners like jhonnyreco. That's why there is hots, and that's why terran units shouldn't be nerfed into the ground, like it happened in WOL.
Bro. This nerf is not pemenant. You can research back. And you have hellions@ (op!) WMs to hold back until the pre-igniter upgrade. Don't you think WM is helpful?
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run.
On July 02 2013 21:52 SsDrKosS wrote:
On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:
On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:
On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway,
Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back!
150/150 is HUGE, like really HUGE in the early midgame, since techlabs, reactors, armory, etc all make the terran very tight on gas. No way a single terran will be so stupid to spend 150/150 on that upgrade. Better spend it on medivacs, mines, etc. And lategame tvp, hellbats are really a waste of supply.
The damage nerf to the hellbat won't remove drops, but the hellbat in the army will disapear forever, unless it's tvt.
Come on. I´m ready to bet my life on it that they won´t disappear. Do you really think that they won´t still kill lings? Zealots? Why every terran units has to be useful the whole game? Already your t1 units are also your lategame units. Terran is the only race that doesn´t really need to transition cause 3-3 makes their t1 into t3.
Protoss does not use gateway units in the late game? Weapon/armor upgrades or stuff like charge and blink doesn't improve the basic gateway units into something better? Try killing a warp in of like eight 3/3/3 chargelots at your expansion...
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run.
On July 02 2013 21:52 SsDrKosS wrote:
On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:
On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:
On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway,
Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back!
150/150 is HUGE, like really HUGE in the early midgame, since techlabs, reactors, armory, etc all make the terran very tight on gas. No way a single terran will be so stupid to spend 150/150 on that upgrade. Better spend it on medivacs, mines, etc. And lategame tvp, hellbats are really a waste of supply.
The damage nerf to the hellbat won't remove drops, but the hellbat in the army will disapear forever, unless it's tvt.
Come on. I´m ready to bet my life on it that they won´t disappear. Do you really think that they won´t still kill lings? Zealots? Why every terran units has to be useful the whole game? Already your t1 units are also your lategame units. Terran is the only race that doesn´t really need to transition cause 3-3 makes their t1 into t3.
-12 damage is huge bro. They will disappear for sure. And why terran needs useful units? Because otherwise we get WOL back, where the last year was dominated by zergs, and foreign pro terrans were dead. Only koreans could compete, and the top code S terrans were dropping games to foreigners like jhonnyreco. That's why there is hots, and that's why terran units shouldn't be nerfed into the ground, like it happened in WOL.
Bro. This nerf is not pemenant. You can research back. And you have hellions@ (op!) WMs to hold back until the pre-igniter upgrade. Don't you think WM is helpful?
Okay, if 150 gas isn't so big, let's make the spire +150 gas, what do you think? Still not huge? The problem is you need a techlab, so no reactor, so no double hellbats. Then you need 150 gas, so that's 150 gas not in medivacs, upgrades, reactors, techlabs, etc. That's just a sick nerf. No one will research it in tvp tvz, because if you play terran then you know that there is just 0 room for another 150 gas. It's already super tight.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway,
Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back!
150/150 is HUGE, like really HUGE in the early midgame, since techlabs, reactors, armory, etc all make the terran very tight on gas. No way a single terran will be so stupid to spend 150/150 on that upgrade. Better spend it on medivacs, mines, etc. And lategame tvp, hellbats are really a waste of supply.
The damage nerf to the hellbat won't remove drops, but the hellbat in the army will disapear forever, unless it's tvt.
Lategame hellbats are some of the best units to have because of how well they do against huge zealot warpins. You can't have too many ofc but they aren't intended to replace the marine. A lategame army is definitely better off with hellbata though.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run.
On July 02 2013 21:52 SsDrKosS wrote:
On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:
On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:
On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway,
Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back!
150/150 is HUGE, like really HUGE in the early midgame, since techlabs, reactors, armory, etc all make the terran very tight on gas. No way a single terran will be so stupid to spend 150/150 on that upgrade. Better spend it on medivacs, mines, etc. And lategame tvp, hellbats are really a waste of supply.
The damage nerf to the hellbat won't remove drops, but the hellbat in the army will disapear forever, unless it's tvt.
Come on. I´m ready to bet my life on it that they won´t disappear. Do you really think that they won´t still kill lings? Zealots? Why every terran units has to be useful the whole game? Already your t1 units are also your lategame units. Terran is the only race that doesn´t really need to transition cause 3-3 makes their t1 into t3.
-12 damage is huge bro. They will disappear for sure. And why terran needs useful units? Because otherwise we get WOL back, where the last year was dominated by zergs, and foreign pro terrans were dead. Only koreans could compete, and the top code S terrans were dropping games to foreigners like jhonnyreco. That's why there is hots, and that's why terran units shouldn't be nerfed into the ground, like it happened in WOL.
Bro. This nerf is not pemenant. You can research back. And you have hellions@ (op!) WMs to hold back until the pre-igniter upgrade. Don't you think WM is helpful?
Okay, if 150 gas isn't so big, let's make the spire +150 gas, what do you think? Still not huge? The problem is you need a techlab, so no reactor, so no double hellbats. Then you need 150 gas, so that's 150 gas not in medivacs, upgrades, reactors, techlabs, etc. That's just a sick nerf. No one will research it in tvp tvz, because if you play terran then you know that there is just 0 room for another 150 gas. It's already super tight.
Man. I thought you were going to say "okay. if 150 gas isn't so big, let's make muta regen&speed to Wol stat and make an upgrade that costs 150 mineral +150 gas, 110," Why would you even make spire more expensive? I didn't say make armory +150 gas.
Hellbats are not what I would want in lategame TvP. They are slow and weak against colossus. Ghost and vikings are sick. The damage output you lack when they can get close to your army is easily negated by blanket emps and nullifying their aoe. Also ghosts have huge dps vs zealots amd can cloak
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
I agree this is the most elegant way. Hellbats 2 shotting marines/scv's so early is a bit detrimental for TvT. Nerfing hellbat drops too much in other matchups is overkill though, they are fine as it is there basically. I hate to see mech getting another nerf though just because a small part of mech is broken, we've seen this before with blueflame hellions. In return I believe blueflame hellions and/or transformation servos can get a serious buff, they are practically not used now especially transformation servos because it's just not worth the trouble. Why bother with a techlab on your factory for a measly transformation you rarely use and costs quite a bit when you can just get hellbats right away? Infernal pre-igniter is a very rare surprise tactic in TvZ and maybe a ForGG tactic in TvT. I think it was once nerfed from +10 to +5 because it was too good against drones but since then there has been the queen patch, improved walling, mothership core, better muta's etc. so I don't think restoring infernal pre-igniter to some of it's former glory would be too bad. For example make it give +8 instead of +5 on both hellions and hellbats so with the upgrade hellbats are exactly the same as now and hellions are slightly better. This would give interesting decisions in TvT too where sometimes hellion form would actually be better in fights perhaps. Alternatively it can just be dropped to 100/100. Transformation servos can seriously get a huge buff. The tech was reintroduced late in the beta as a quick fix to hellbat drops/timings because it was way too strong to make hellions and medivacs, get an armory a bit later and suddenly have a hellbat army. With hellbats needing infernal pre-igniter to be good the biggest reason for transformation servos would be gone, i still think it should remain forcing T to have a techlab on the factory to get it at least but the cost can seriously be reduced, perhaps even 50/50.
tl;dr, just do David Kim';s suggestion rolling in some of the damge with BFH but do make sure to give mech some slight buffs in return to keep mech at least a little viable. It would be silly to screw over an underpowered strategy even more which is a delight to see from time to time.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
I agree this is the most elegant way. Hellbats 2 shotting marines/scv's so early is a bit detrimental for TvT. Nerfing hellbat drops too much in other matchups is overkill though, they are fine as it is there basically. I hate to see mech getting another nerf though just because a small part of mech is broken, we've seen this before with blueflame hellions. In return I believe blueflame hellions and/or transformation servos can get a serious buff, they are practically not used now especially transformation servos because it's just not worth the trouble. Why bother with a techlab on your factory for a measly transformation you rarely use and costs quite a bit when you can just get hellbats right away? Infernal pre-igniter is a very rare surprise tactic in TvZ and maybe a ForGG tactic in TvT. I think it was once nerfed from +10 to +5 because it was too good against drones but since then there has been the queen patch, improved walling, mothership core, better muta's etc. so I don't think restoring infernal pre-igniter to some of it's former glory would be too bad. For example make it give +8 instead of +5 on both hellions and hellbats so with the upgrade hellbats are exactly the same as now and hellions are slightly better. This would give interesting decisions in TvT too where sometimes hellion form would actually be better in fights perhaps. Alternatively it can just be dropped to 100/100. Transformation servos can seriously get a huge buff. The tech was reintroduced late in the beta as a quick fix to hellbat drops/timings because it was way too strong to make hellions and medivacs, get an armory a bit later and suddenly have a hellbat army. With hellbats needing infernal pre-igniter to be good the biggest reason for transformation servos would be gone, i still think it should remain forcing T to have a techlab on the factory to get it at least but the cost can seriously be reduced, perhaps even 50/50.
tl;dr, just do David Kim';s suggestion rolling in some of the damge with BFH but do make sure to give mech some slight buffs in return to keep mech at least a little viable. It would be silly to screw over an underpowered strategy even more which is a delight to see from time to time.
+10^10. Hellion is an unhappy twin of Hellbat! Why don't we just remove the transformation servos upgrade since hellbat will be nerfed? I really want to see some tactics that involves hellion/hellbat transformation! And I think the transformation time is also a bit too slow. Maybe 2~3 blizzard seconds?
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
I agree this is the most elegant way. Hellbats 2 shotting marines/scv's so early is a bit detrimental for TvT. Nerfing hellbat drops too much in other matchups is overkill though, they are fine as it is there basically. I hate to see mech getting another nerf though just because a small part of mech is broken, we've seen this before with blueflame hellions. In return I believe blueflame hellions and/or transformation servos can get a serious buff, they are practically not used now especially transformation servos because it's just not worth the trouble. Why bother with a techlab on your factory for a measly transformation you rarely use and costs quite a bit when you can just get hellbats right away? Infernal pre-igniter is a very rare surprise tactic in TvZ and maybe a ForGG tactic in TvT. I think it was once nerfed from +10 to +5 because it was too good against drones but since then there has been the queen patch, improved walling, mothership core, better muta's etc. so I don't think restoring infernal pre-igniter to some of it's former glory would be too bad. For example make it give +8 instead of +5 on both hellions and hellbats so with the upgrade hellbats are exactly the same as now and hellions are slightly better. This would give interesting decisions in TvT too where sometimes hellion form would actually be better in fights perhaps. Alternatively it can just be dropped to 100/100. Transformation servos can seriously get a huge buff. The tech was reintroduced late in the beta as a quick fix to hellbat drops/timings because it was way too strong to make hellions and medivacs, get an armory a bit later and suddenly have a hellbat army. With hellbats needing infernal pre-igniter to be good the biggest reason for transformation servos would be gone, i still think it should remain forcing T to have a techlab on the factory to get it at least but the cost can seriously be reduced, perhaps even 50/50.
tl;dr, just do David Kim';s suggestion rolling in some of the damge with BFH but do make sure to give mech some slight buffs in return to keep mech at least a little viable. It would be silly to screw over an underpowered strategy even more which is a delight to see from time to time.
+10^10. Hellion is an unhappy twin of Hellbat! Why don't we just remove the transformation servos upgrade since hellbat will be nerfed? I really want to see some tactics that involves hellion/hellbat transformation! And I think the transformation time is also a bit too slow. Maybe 2~3 blizzard seconds?
Making a separate bf upgrade for hellbat and putting it in armory would be the best way to nerf hellbat damage but still keep reactored factory hellbats as an option (and with that, drops)
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run.
On July 02 2013 21:52 SsDrKosS wrote:
On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:
On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:
On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway,
Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back!
150/150 is HUGE, like really HUGE in the early midgame, since techlabs, reactors, armory, etc all make the terran very tight on gas. No way a single terran will be so stupid to spend 150/150 on that upgrade. Better spend it on medivacs, mines, etc. And lategame tvp, hellbats are really a waste of supply.
The damage nerf to the hellbat won't remove drops, but the hellbat in the army will disapear forever, unless it's tvt.
Come on. I´m ready to bet my life on it that they won´t disappear. Do you really think that they won´t still kill lings? Zealots? Why every terran units has to be useful the whole game? Already your t1 units are also your lategame units. Terran is the only race that doesn´t really need to transition cause 3-3 makes their t1 into t3.
-12 damage is huge bro. They will disappear for sure. And why terran needs useful units? Because otherwise we get WOL back, where the last year was dominated by zergs, and foreign pro terrans were dead. Only koreans could compete, and the top code S terrans were dropping games to foreigners like jhonnyreco. That's why there is hots, and that's why terran units shouldn't be nerfed into the ground, like it happened in WOL.
Bro. This nerf is not pemenant. You can research back. And you have hellions@ (op!) WMs to hold back until the pre-igniter upgrade. Don't you think WM is helpful?
Okay, if 150 gas isn't so big, let's make the spire +150 gas, what do you think? Still not huge? The problem is you need a techlab, so no reactor, so no double hellbats. Then you need 150 gas, so that's 150 gas not in medivacs, upgrades, reactors, techlabs, etc. That's just a sick nerf. No one will research it in tvp tvz, because if you play terran then you know that there is just 0 room for another 150 gas. It's already super tight.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
I agree this is the most elegant way. Hellbats 2 shotting marines/scv's so early is a bit detrimental for TvT. Nerfing hellbat drops too much in other matchups is overkill though, they are fine as it is there basically. I hate to see mech getting another nerf though just because a small part of mech is broken, we've seen this before with blueflame hellions. In return I believe blueflame hellions and/or transformation servos can get a serious buff, they are practically not used now especially transformation servos because it's just not worth the trouble. Why bother with a techlab on your factory for a measly transformation you rarely use and costs quite a bit when you can just get hellbats right away? Infernal pre-igniter is a very rare surprise tactic in TvZ and maybe a ForGG tactic in TvT. I think it was once nerfed from +10 to +5 because it was too good against drones but since then there has been the queen patch, improved walling, mothership core, better muta's etc. so I don't think restoring infernal pre-igniter to some of it's former glory would be too bad. For example make it give +8 instead of +5 on both hellions and hellbats so with the upgrade hellbats are exactly the same as now and hellions are slightly better. This would give interesting decisions in TvT too where sometimes hellion form would actually be better in fights perhaps. Alternatively it can just be dropped to 100/100. Transformation servos can seriously get a huge buff. The tech was reintroduced late in the beta as a quick fix to hellbat drops/timings because it was way too strong to make hellions and medivacs, get an armory a bit later and suddenly have a hellbat army. With hellbats needing infernal pre-igniter to be good the biggest reason for transformation servos would be gone, i still think it should remain forcing T to have a techlab on the factory to get it at least but the cost can seriously be reduced, perhaps even 50/50.
tl;dr, just do David Kim';s suggestion rolling in some of the damge with BFH but do make sure to give mech some slight buffs in return to keep mech at least a little viable. It would be silly to screw over an underpowered strategy even more which is a delight to see from time to time.
+10^10. Hellion is an unhappy twin of Hellbat! Why don't we just remove the transformation servos upgrade since hellbat will be nerfed? I really want to see some tactics that involves hellion/hellbat transformation! And I think the transformation time is also a bit too slow. Maybe 2~3 blizzard seconds?
Making a separate bf upgrade for hellbat and putting it in armory would be the best way to nerf hellbat damage but still keep reactored factory hellbats as an option (and with that, drops)
But armory is only for mech ground/air upgrade though. and why would you want to have it separately? That would make hellion and transformation even more worthless because terran have to research extra 1 more. (Edit: to use both of them effectively)
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run.
On July 02 2013 21:52 SsDrKosS wrote:
On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:
On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:
On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote: [quote]
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway,
Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back!
150/150 is HUGE, like really HUGE in the early midgame, since techlabs, reactors, armory, etc all make the terran very tight on gas. No way a single terran will be so stupid to spend 150/150 on that upgrade. Better spend it on medivacs, mines, etc. And lategame tvp, hellbats are really a waste of supply.
The damage nerf to the hellbat won't remove drops, but the hellbat in the army will disapear forever, unless it's tvt.
Come on. I´m ready to bet my life on it that they won´t disappear. Do you really think that they won´t still kill lings? Zealots? Why every terran units has to be useful the whole game? Already your t1 units are also your lategame units. Terran is the only race that doesn´t really need to transition cause 3-3 makes their t1 into t3.
-12 damage is huge bro. They will disappear for sure. And why terran needs useful units? Because otherwise we get WOL back, where the last year was dominated by zergs, and foreign pro terrans were dead. Only koreans could compete, and the top code S terrans were dropping games to foreigners like jhonnyreco. That's why there is hots, and that's why terran units shouldn't be nerfed into the ground, like it happened in WOL.
Bro. This nerf is not pemenant. You can research back. And you have hellions@ (op!) WMs to hold back until the pre-igniter upgrade. Don't you think WM is helpful?
Okay, if 150 gas isn't so big, let's make the spire +150 gas, what do you think? Still not huge? The problem is you need a techlab, so no reactor, so no double hellbats. Then you need 150 gas, so that's 150 gas not in medivacs, upgrades, reactors, techlabs, etc. That's just a sick nerf. No one will research it in tvp tvz, because if you play terran then you know that there is just 0 room for another 150 gas. It's already super tight.
My gut feeling has always been the Medivacs being the problem. Why do Terrans go Bio every game? Why is Bio considered the mobile army? Why are Hellbats just an extension of Bio as opposed to a gateway drug to Mech? The Medivac links them all together. You just can't compete with something that's necessary for the deathball and also necessary for harass. The rest of Mech falters because of their lack of synergy with the Medivac.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
Everyone likes to talk about these upgrades like they're some sort of massive cost. 150/150 is NOTHING late game, it is simply a choice. Even early game if you're going to have them in your army consistently throughout the whole game 150/150 is nothing also. That being said I don't know what the proper change is to hellbat, but really there is only one game that I saw that they looked OP, but that was innovation playing and I don't think it was the hellbat that was OP. My point is, that an upgrade is always worth it as long as you're using it. A lot of zergs don't use overlord speed because of its upgrade cost, but for what an overlord can do with speed alone the upgrade is definitely worth it, but might not be the biggest priority.
150/150 isn't the whole story, the fact that you either need a secondary factory or have to sacrifice a ton of production time is arguably an even bigger deal.
It's like when people wonder why terrans won't make a single raven to clear creep against zerg? It's because switching addons is a big hassle and you lose valuable production time that could be spent on making the actual units you urgently need, medivacs and vikings. The 150/150 cost for blueflame is just icing on the cake that ensures the unit no longer has a place in builds that don't already incorporate factories with tech labs.
Also hellbats as bio support peak in the early-midgame, mostly because you won't be getting mech upgrades and eventually your hellbats will be 0-0 vs 3-3. This makes all sorts of lategame hellbat additions with double factories kinda moot.
On July 02 2013 23:50 Cloak wrote: My gut feeling has always been the Medivacs being the problem. Why do Terrans go Bio every game? Why is Bio considered the mobile army? Why are Hellbats just an extension of Bio as opposed to a gateway drug to Mech? The Medivac links them all together. You just can't compete with something that's necessary for the deathball and also necessary for harass. The rest of Mech falters because of their lack of synergy with the Medivac.
guess we will have to make all terran units healable by medivac and remove repair 8P, medivacs are certainly one of the best units in the game.
this hellbat nerf is pretty bad but necessary. Hellbat drop is just too strong and combine that with speed medivac they are just too powerful. The sad thing is that with this nerf, we probably going to start looking more and more like WoL again :/
On June 11 2013 10:54 Kfish wrote: Looking forward to changes. I hope they do something since hellbats are the strongest mineral dump in in the game, can be reactored out, healed and come out pretty fast.
healed AND repaired ^^
but yeah, its good they're doing something about this.
On July 02 2013 23:50 Cloak wrote: My gut feeling has always been the Medivacs being the problem. Why do Terrans go Bio every game? Why is Bio considered the mobile army? Why are Hellbats just an extension of Bio as opposed to a gateway drug to Mech? The Medivac links them all together. You just can't compete with something that's necessary for the deathball and also necessary for harass. The rest of Mech falters because of their lack of synergy with the Medivac.
guess we will have to make all terran units healable by medivac and remove repair 8P, medivacs are certainly one of the best units in the game.
Medivacs are the worst unit design wise. Its just a gimmick unit which is good at everything. One of crucial part of RTS game is to make decisions when and which unit I should make. Medivac is just good at any time. Compare it to warp prism. How protoss should think it through.
On July 02 2013 23:50 Cloak wrote: My gut feeling has always been the Medivacs being the problem. Why do Terrans go Bio every game? Why is Bio considered the mobile army? Why are Hellbats just an extension of Bio as opposed to a gateway drug to Mech? The Medivac links them all together. You just can't compete with something that's necessary for the deathball and also necessary for harass. The rest of Mech falters because of their lack of synergy with the Medivac.
I have this feeling from the moment I learnt about medivac. At first I thought it was marines. Then it turns out it was medivacs
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
Everyone likes to talk about these upgrades like they're some sort of massive cost. 150/150 is NOTHING late game, it is simply a choice. Even early game if you're going to have them in your army consistently throughout the whole game 150/150 is nothing also. That being said I don't know what the proper change is to hellbat, but really there is only one game that I saw that they looked OP, but that was innovation playing and I don't think it was the hellbat that was OP. My point is, that an upgrade is always worth it as long as you're using it. A lot of zergs don't use overlord speed because of its upgrade cost, but for what an overlord can do with speed alone the upgrade is definitely worth it, but might not be the biggest priority.
150/150 isn't the whole story, the fact that you either need a secondary factory or have to sacrifice a ton of production time is arguably an even bigger deal.
It's like when people wonder why terrans won't make a single raven to clear creep against zerg? It's because switching addons is a big hassle and you lose valuable production time that could be spent on making the actual units you urgently need, medivacs and vikings. The 150/150 cost for blueflame is just icing on the cake that ensures the unit no longer has a place in builds that don't already incorporate factories with tech labs.
Also hellbats as bio support peak in the early-midgame, mostly because you won't be getting mech upgrades and eventually your hellbats will be 0-0 vs 3-3. This makes all sorts of lategame hellbat additions with double factories kinda moot.
hellbats as support peak in the lategame in TvP actually. Early game you don't bother with them because an armory is just too expensive and your factory is busy making reactors for other buildings anyway. Also protoss often plays a stalker/colossus combination early on with minimal zealots where hellbats suck. Lategame though protoss is forced to go into zealot/ht as well since colossi in high numbers just get countered. At this point hellbats really start to shine, especially since there will be lots of zealots, your factory is idle anyway (reactored factory is equal in money spending to two reactored barracks) and the massive aoe around makes marines a bit week. Yes your hellbats will probably just be 0-2 instead of 3-3 marines but still hellbats are good at that point. Early on you also sacrifice too much mobility by going hellbats, you can't kite effectively. Later on kiting get's practically too hard anyway and ghosts/vikings remove that ability from your army anyway. Many terrans alternate ship attack with ship/mech armor now so your hellbats will get a couple upgrades anyway, besides their high base damage makes them do fine without upgrades anyway.
I like that this post is now almost a month old, Hellbat drops have become standard in every terran matchup and nothing has changed. The approach Blizzard is taking is fine theoretically, but I think the evidence is in broz.
How about limiting the speed boost on medivacs to a certain payload (Marauders, Marines, SCV's, Mines...) . The problem is not the hellbats themselves but the limited reaction time you have to defend against them. They require close to no micro and get in your face to quickly. This would be logical, an overloaded medivac (Read full of heavy (read weighty) units) wouldn't be able to use its boosters thus reducing the mobility of the hellbats and giving the opponent more time to micro his harvesters out of the mineral line. They would become less viable as harass units while still being good in all other aspects of the game.
On July 03 2013 09:05 IamHobbyless wrote: Remove the Bio tag and i am happy
I would love this, because then they'd actually be useful for mech late game again since mass immortals destroys Hellbats so hard.
It's why I prefer to use blue flame hellions instead late game as all the archons just eat through them otherwise.
You mean you want both suggested hellbat nerf (BFH) AND no-bio tag? That might be too much? I actually saw someone (and myself) suggest that hellbat comes purely mechanical but when transformation servo upgrade research is done, it will get bio tag again. That will give terran more option (so archons would not kill them easily.)
On July 03 2013 08:23 EFermi wrote: If Blizzard make hellbats armored and go ahead with BFH containing the extra light damage would probably make the unit balanced
Waht? I don't want hellbats get extra damage from immortals! The good thing about being light in PvT is that hellbat can be a meat shield for other mechs which are all armored!
On July 03 2013 12:56 MisoSoup wrote: How about limiting the speed boost on medivacs to a certain payload (Marauders, Marines, SCV's, Mines...) . The problem is not the hellbats themselves but the limited reaction time you have to defend against them. They require close to no micro and get in your face to quickly. This would be logical, an overloaded medivac (Read full of heavy (read weighty) units) wouldn't be able to use its boosters thus reducing the mobility of the hellbats and giving the opponent more time to micro his harvesters out of the mineral line. They would become less viable as harass units while still being good in all other aspects of the game.
What I actually want from medivac: -now unloading time is delayed respect to the cargo size. (what I mean is that hellbats will have more delay after they are dropped from medivac. Remember BW reaver?)
-longer cooldown of booster.
I don't want to see insane micro marine drops disappearing from the scene.
On July 03 2013 09:39 ajxPurpleRain wrote: I like that this post is now almost a month old, Hellbat drops have become standard in every terran matchup and nothing has changed. The approach Blizzard is taking is fine theoretically, but I think the evidence is in broz.
I agree. It is actually kinda late to patch anything too much onto hellbat drop now. That's also why I wish blizzard would have acted faster and not this passive patching action. Pros spent time building upon what they have, the longer you take to patch something, the more things and builds you are gonna affect. I wish blizzard would have patched medivac speed boost into something like only able to activate when medivac health below x percent but any nerf to hellbat or medivac is kinda too much to the game right now
On July 03 2013 12:56 MisoSoup wrote: How about limiting the speed boost on medivacs to a certain payload (Marauders, Marines, SCV's, Mines...) . The problem is not the hellbats themselves but the limited reaction time you have to defend against them. They require close to no micro and get in your face to quickly. This would be logical, an overloaded medivac (Read full of heavy (read weighty) units) wouldn't be able to use its boosters thus reducing the mobility of the hellbats and giving the opponent more time to micro his harvesters out of the mineral line. They would become less viable as harass units while still being good in all other aspects of the game.
1. Hellbats are just the cheapest - by a mile - harrassment unit to use, but other units would be just as devastating. 2. Such "specialized solutions" are a TERRIBLE way to balance the game. The "vs bio" bonus damage on Spore Crawlers was already bad.
On July 03 2013 12:56 MisoSoup wrote: How about limiting the speed boost on medivacs to a certain payload (Marauders, Marines, SCV's, Mines...) . The problem is not the hellbats themselves but the limited reaction time you have to defend against them. They require close to no micro and get in your face to quickly. This would be logical, an overloaded medivac (Read full of heavy (read weighty) units) wouldn't be able to use its boosters thus reducing the mobility of the hellbats and giving the opponent more time to micro his harvesters out of the mineral line. They would become less viable as harass units while still being good in all other aspects of the game.
1. Hellbats are just the cheapest - by a mile - harrassment unit to use, but other units would be just as devastating. 2. Such "specialized solutions" are a TERRIBLE way to balance the game. The "vs bio" bonus damage on Spore Crawlers was already bad.
The super mobility is the deciding factor.
I agree with number 1. Hellbats are cheap. The terran has almost no drawback to using them. As they are now, they require close to no micro, they force the opponent to stop mining, they get in your mineral line way too fast and the AOE damage is to high for that ridiculous investment. They can quickly determine the outcome of any game (As they are useful in all match ups).
I disagree with number 2. People are complaining that any other nerf to hellbats would either negate their usefulness to a mech army. Changing the damage output would have consequences to every matchup etc. I personally hate the unit. But I'm trying to make a balanced choice. Once more, the problem is not the unit itself but its effect as a harassment unit.
The super mobility is a deciding factor. For any other bio unit.
On July 03 2013 09:05 IamHobbyless wrote: Remove the Bio tag and i am happy
I would love this, because then they'd actually be useful for mech late game again since mass immortals destroys Hellbats so hard.
It's why I prefer to use blue flame hellions instead late game as all the archons just eat through them otherwise.
You mean you want both suggested hellbat nerf (BFH) AND no-bio tag? That might be too much? I actually saw someone (and myself) suggest that hellbat comes purely mechanical but when transformation servo upgrade research is done, it will get bio tag again. That will give terran more option (so archons would not kill them easily.)
On July 03 2013 08:23 EFermi wrote: If Blizzard make hellbats armored and go ahead with BFH containing the extra light damage would probably make the unit balanced
Waht? I don't want hellbats get extra damage from immortals! The good thing about being light in PvT is that hellbat can be a meat shield for other mechs which are all armored!
And my poor banelings will cry hard.
If they were armored then Stalkers and Marauders would be a lot more effective against them. Right now they basically have no weaknesses in PvT and TvT.
On July 03 2013 09:05 IamHobbyless wrote: Remove the Bio tag and i am happy
I would love this, because then they'd actually be useful for mech late game again since mass immortals destroys Hellbats so hard.
It's why I prefer to use blue flame hellions instead late game as all the archons just eat through them otherwise.
You mean you want both suggested hellbat nerf (BFH) AND no-bio tag? That might be too much? I actually saw someone (and myself) suggest that hellbat comes purely mechanical but when transformation servo upgrade research is done, it will get bio tag again. That will give terran more option (so archons would not kill them easily.)
On July 03 2013 08:23 EFermi wrote: If Blizzard make hellbats armored and go ahead with BFH containing the extra light damage would probably make the unit balanced
Waht? I don't want hellbats get extra damage from immortals! The good thing about being light in PvT is that hellbat can be a meat shield for other mechs which are all armored!
And my poor banelings will cry hard.
If they were armored then Stalkers and Marauders would be a lot more effective against them. Right now they basically have no weaknesses in PvT and TvT.
They would also be utterly useless with their slow speed, but I guess that makes them "balanced" in the eyes of some people.
On July 03 2013 09:05 IamHobbyless wrote: Remove the Bio tag and i am happy
I would love this, because then they'd actually be useful for mech late game again since mass immortals destroys Hellbats so hard.
It's why I prefer to use blue flame hellions instead late game as all the archons just eat through them otherwise.
You mean you want both suggested hellbat nerf (BFH) AND no-bio tag? That might be too much? I actually saw someone (and myself) suggest that hellbat comes purely mechanical but when transformation servo upgrade research is done, it will get bio tag again. That will give terran more option (so archons would not kill them easily.)
On July 03 2013 08:23 EFermi wrote: If Blizzard make hellbats armored and go ahead with BFH containing the extra light damage would probably make the unit balanced
Waht? I don't want hellbats get extra damage from immortals! The good thing about being light in PvT is that hellbat can be a meat shield for other mechs which are all armored!
And my poor banelings will cry hard.
If they were armored then Stalkers and Marauders would be a lot more effective against them. Right now they basically have no weaknesses in PvT and TvT.
And if they lose their bio tag and become armoured they lose some ability to tank and would make mech in TvP even less viable due to immortals once again being the counter to everything mech. The problem at hand is that hellbats are too good in the early-mid game because they are able to drop in and cause massive damage. I don't see how changing them to armoured and removing their ability to be healed changes the problem with the drop. At most it gives a very minor nerf because now the medivac doesn't heal them so they have to be slightly more careful when engaging the opposing army during the drop.
Hellbats were designed for a specific purpose: to make mech better. Their problem at the moment is that they are too good as harrassment units. This needs to be nerfed, but nerfed in such a way as to not really affect their role as a tank in a mech army, particularly in TvP. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
On July 03 2013 09:05 IamHobbyless wrote: Remove the Bio tag and i am happy
I would love this, because then they'd actually be useful for mech late game again since mass immortals destroys Hellbats so hard.
It's why I prefer to use blue flame hellions instead late game as all the archons just eat through them otherwise.
You mean you want both suggested hellbat nerf (BFH) AND no-bio tag? That might be too much? I actually saw someone (and myself) suggest that hellbat comes purely mechanical but when transformation servo upgrade research is done, it will get bio tag again. That will give terran more option (so archons would not kill them easily.)
On July 03 2013 08:23 EFermi wrote: If Blizzard make hellbats armored and go ahead with BFH containing the extra light damage would probably make the unit balanced
Waht? I don't want hellbats get extra damage from immortals! The good thing about being light in PvT is that hellbat can be a meat shield for other mechs which are all armored!
And my poor banelings will cry hard.
If they were armored then Stalkers and Marauders would be a lot more effective against them. Right now they basically have no weaknesses in PvT and TvT.
They would also be utterly useless with their slow speed, but I guess that makes them "balanced" in the eyes of some people.
Their speed isn't a problem when they have marauder and marine support.
On July 03 2013 09:05 IamHobbyless wrote: Remove the Bio tag and i am happy
I would love this, because then they'd actually be useful for mech late game again since mass immortals destroys Hellbats so hard.
It's why I prefer to use blue flame hellions instead late game as all the archons just eat through them otherwise.
You mean you want both suggested hellbat nerf (BFH) AND no-bio tag? That might be too much? I actually saw someone (and myself) suggest that hellbat comes purely mechanical but when transformation servo upgrade research is done, it will get bio tag again. That will give terran more option (so archons would not kill them easily.)
On July 03 2013 08:23 EFermi wrote: If Blizzard make hellbats armored and go ahead with BFH containing the extra light damage would probably make the unit balanced
Waht? I don't want hellbats get extra damage from immortals! The good thing about being light in PvT is that hellbat can be a meat shield for other mechs which are all armored!
And my poor banelings will cry hard.
If they were armored then Stalkers and Marauders would be a lot more effective against them. Right now they basically have no weaknesses in PvT and TvT.
And if they lose their bio tag and become armoured they lose some ability to tank and would make mech in TvP even less viable due to immortals once again being the counter to everything mech. The problem at hand is that hellbats are too good in the early-mid game because they are able to drop in and cause massive damage. I don't see how changing them to armoured and removing their ability to be healed changes the problem with the drop. At most it gives a very minor nerf because now the medivac doesn't heal them so they have to be slightly more careful when engaging the opposing army during the drop.
Hellbats were designed for a specific purpose: to make mech better. Their problem at the moment is that they are too good as harrassment units. This needs to be nerfed, but nerfed in such a way as to not really affect their role as a tank in a mech army, particularly in TvP. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Mech will not be viable in TvP for as long as bio is as amazing as it is. Right now hellbats are used as a supplement to the bio army.
I would like the bio tag to remain (even though it is nonsensical, it makes sense in term of gameplay)
My favourite option so far is to reduce damage to 18 + 4 vs light, and with BFH it becomes 18 + 12 vs light (the same as right now)
This way, unupgraded hellbats would 3-shot marines and SCVs in the beginning of the game, but would still 2-shot drones and probes, thus keeping hellbat drops as viable openers in TvP and TvZ.
On July 03 2013 14:20 zmsFlood wrote: Please god remove the bio tag!!!
which god? DK? lol I'm pretty sure somebody tested and still turned out hellbat drops are op. (just can't find that video...) dmg nerf was necessary (not sure removing all + light was a good choice though)
On July 03 2013 09:05 IamHobbyless wrote: Remove the Bio tag and i am happy
I would love this, because then they'd actually be useful for mech late game again since mass immortals destroys Hellbats so hard.
It's why I prefer to use blue flame hellions instead late game as all the archons just eat through them otherwise.
You mean you want both suggested hellbat nerf (BFH) AND no-bio tag? That might be too much? I actually saw someone (and myself) suggest that hellbat comes purely mechanical but when transformation servo upgrade research is done, it will get bio tag again. That will give terran more option (so archons would not kill them easily.)
On July 03 2013 08:23 EFermi wrote: If Blizzard make hellbats armored and go ahead with BFH containing the extra light damage would probably make the unit balanced
Waht? I don't want hellbats get extra damage from immortals! The good thing about being light in PvT is that hellbat can be a meat shield for other mechs which are all armored!
And my poor banelings will cry hard.
If they were armored then Stalkers and Marauders would be a lot more effective against them. Right now they basically have no weaknesses in PvT and TvT.
And if they lose their bio tag and become armoured they lose some ability to tank and would make mech in TvP even less viable due to immortals once again being the counter to everything mech. The problem at hand is that hellbats are too good in the early-mid game because they are able to drop in and cause massive damage. I don't see how changing them to armoured and removing their ability to be healed changes the problem with the drop. At most it gives a very minor nerf because now the medivac doesn't heal them so they have to be slightly more careful when engaging the opposing army during the drop.
Hellbats were designed for a specific purpose: to make mech better. Their problem at the moment is that they are too good as harrassment units. This needs to be nerfed, but nerfed in such a way as to not really affect their role as a tank in a mech army, particularly in TvP. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
No they werent, you give wrong facts They were designed for lategame mass zealots
Easiest is solution is lower hellbat damage against scvs/probes/drones only.(light, smight)... pretty sure Blizz did this will blue flame hellions Or have a lost cost upgrade in the armory which allows hellions to become hellbats.... this would slow down the speed which hellbat drops arrive, which would allow some pressure from opponents instead of them sitting in base for drop
I saw the game where InnO suicided his medievacs + hellbats against sOs and certain zergs and eventhough I'm a big terran fan, I thought it was stupid... (oracles are stupid too, worst than banshees)
On July 03 2013 14:43 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote: Easiest is solution is lower hellbat damage against scvs/probes/drones only.(light, smight)... pretty sure Blizz did this will blue flame hellions Or have a lost cost upgrade in the armory which allows hellions to become hellbats.... this would slow down the speed which hellbat drops arrive, which would allow some pressure from opponents instead of them sitting in base for drop
I saw the game where InnO suicided his medievacs + hellbats against sOs and certain zergs and eventhough I'm a big terran fan, I thought it was stupid... (oracles are stupid too, worst than banshees)
I totally agree with the fact that transformation upgrade should become more viable or removed but I don't know how would it slows drop. Maybe you shoulve said both BF nerf and transformation buff
EDIT: I know there are more stupid units (because they are either too good/bad/weird) but I really appreciate the fact that blizzard slowly recognises problems. the only problem is that they are TOO slow to recognise...
How about this: Nerf speedlings, nerf chargelots. Then nerf hellbats. This way, hellbat effectiveness in battle is relatively untouched while harvesters get indirect buff against hellbat drops.
/edit
Remember how blue-flame was nerfed because hellion-drops were too good? Then hellions became much less effective versus zealots and speedlings. Fixing one thing can break another.
On July 03 2013 15:03 plogamer wrote: How about this: Nerf speedlings, nerf chargelots. Then nerf hellbats. This way, hellbat effectiveness in battle is relatively untouched while harvesters get indirect buff against hellbat drops.
obviously you are trolling. Ohh i'm caught! help~~~
On July 03 2013 09:05 IamHobbyless wrote: Remove the Bio tag and i am happy
I would love this, because then they'd actually be useful for mech late game again since mass immortals destroys Hellbats so hard.
It's why I prefer to use blue flame hellions instead late game as all the archons just eat through them otherwise.
You mean you want both suggested hellbat nerf (BFH) AND no-bio tag? That might be too much? I actually saw someone (and myself) suggest that hellbat comes purely mechanical but when transformation servo upgrade research is done, it will get bio tag again. That will give terran more option (so archons would not kill them easily.)
On July 03 2013 08:23 EFermi wrote: If Blizzard make hellbats armored and go ahead with BFH containing the extra light damage would probably make the unit balanced
Waht? I don't want hellbats get extra damage from immortals! The good thing about being light in PvT is that hellbat can be a meat shield for other mechs which are all armored!
And my poor banelings will cry hard.
If they were armored then Stalkers and Marauders would be a lot more effective against them. Right now they basically have no weaknesses in PvT and TvT.
And if they lose their bio tag and become armoured they lose some ability to tank and would make mech in TvP even less viable due to immortals once again being the counter to everything mech. The problem at hand is that hellbats are too good in the early-mid game because they are able to drop in and cause massive damage. I don't see how changing them to armoured and removing their ability to be healed changes the problem with the drop. At most it gives a very minor nerf because now the medivac doesn't heal them so they have to be slightly more careful when engaging the opposing army during the drop.
Hellbats were designed for a specific purpose: to make mech better. Their problem at the moment is that they are too good as harrassment units. This needs to be nerfed, but nerfed in such a way as to not really affect their role as a tank in a mech army, particularly in TvP. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
No they werent, you give wrong facts They were designed for lategame mass zealots
This is also true. It does not invalidate what I said.
On July 03 2013 14:43 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote: Easiest is solution is lower hellbat damage against scvs/probes/drones only.(light, smight)... pretty sure Blizz did this will blue flame hellions Or have a lost cost upgrade in the armory which allows hellions to become hellbats.... this would slow down the speed which hellbat drops arrive, which would allow some pressure from opponents instead of them sitting in base for drop
I saw the game where InnO suicided his medievacs + hellbats against sOs and certain zergs and eventhough I'm a big terran fan, I thought it was stupid... (oracles are stupid too, worst than banshees)
I totally agree with the fact that transformation upgrade should become more viable or removed but I don't know how would it slows drop. Maybe you shoulve said both BF nerf and transformation buff
EDIT: I know there are more stupid units (because they are either too good/bad/weird) but I really appreciate the fact that blizzard slowly recognises problems. the only problem is that they are TOO slow to recognise...
The problem is that they don't have a design goal, other than reaching 50% winrates with all matchups. If something about the gameplay is utterly retarded, they don't mind as long as it doesn't break 'the balance'.
This is the way they've been designing their games since after World of Warcraft.
I hope they kill the mine + hellbat in LotV, but for now, they might as well lower the damage back to beta levels- 10 (+9 vs light)- and remove the bio tag / weird cargo patch. If they can't fix mech right, then I dunno...
-nobody built beta hellbats because mech hadn't been fixed, and tempest + vipers gutted mech and still do
On July 03 2013 14:43 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote: Easiest is solution is lower hellbat damage against scvs/probes/drones only.(light, smight)... pretty sure Blizz did this will blue flame hellions Or have a lost cost upgrade in the armory which allows hellions to become hellbats.... this would slow down the speed which hellbat drops arrive, which would allow some pressure from opponents instead of them sitting in base for drop
I saw the game where InnO suicided his medievacs + hellbats against sOs and certain zergs and eventhough I'm a big terran fan, I thought it was stupid... (oracles are stupid too, worst than banshees)
I totally agree with the fact that transformation upgrade should become more viable or removed but I don't know how would it slows drop. Maybe you shoulve said both BF nerf and transformation buff
EDIT: I know there are more stupid units (because they are either too good/bad/weird) but I really appreciate the fact that blizzard slowly recognises problems. the only problem is that they are TOO slow to recognise...
The problem is that they don't have a design goal, other than reaching 50% winrates with all matchups. If something about the gameplay is utterly retarded, they don't mind as long as it doesn't break 'the balance'.
This is the way they've been designing their games since after World of Warcraft.
I hope they kill the mine + hellbat in LotV, but for now, they might as well lower the damage back to beta levels- 10 (+9 vs light)- and remove the bio tag / weird cargo patch. If they can't fix mech right, then I dunno...
-nobody built beta hellbats because mech hadn't been fixed, and tempest + vipers gutted mech and still do
The one problem which Blizzard is facing now is that they cannot make current units changed too much because of the amount of time passed from the release of hots. People are already used to it.I'm not saying that hellbats dont need change, but I think it should be slightly nerfed to help mech unitl Lov (i'm not sure which one is right. lov or Lotv?) comes out. too late to change mech now because there won't be any huge change/ new units, which is soooooo sad
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellabats.
can you explain why would protoss / zerg workers should be 2 shoted while the terran ones should be 3 shoted ?
Because a SCV has 5 hp more then probes and drones.
I still don't get why SCV health was nerfed by 5 early on. They had the extra health since we have the only worker vunerable during building buildings and the amount of times I've lost games purely because of that nerf is really annoying.
Because Marine SCV alls in were literally unstoppable.
And people still did them anyways even after the nerfs.
Yup , I play random on NA sometimes , if I'm T against P or T I just marine scv all in usually and win like 80% of the time , it's still rly fkin powerful , not much good vs any semi good zerg though.
On July 03 2013 14:26 fezvez wrote: I would like the bio tag to remain (even though it is nonsensical, it makes sense in term of gameplay)
My favourite option so far is to reduce damage to 18 + 4 vs light, and with BFH it becomes 18 + 12 vs light (the same as right now)
This way, unupgraded hellbats would 3-shot marines and SCVs in the beginning of the game, but would still 2-shot drones and probes, thus keeping hellbat drops as viable openers in TvP and TvZ.
We discussed this at length on the previous page and you just ignore all of the counterarguments. Well, then they still hold. The costs incurred with researching blue flame, especially in TvP midgame, renders hellbats effectively useless against mass-zealots, with major ramifications in all three MUs.
On July 03 2013 14:43 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote: Easiest is solution is lower hellbat damage against scvs/probes/drones only.(light, smight)... pretty sure Blizz did this will blue flame hellions Or have a lost cost upgrade in the armory which allows hellions to become hellbats.... this would slow down the speed which hellbat drops arrive, which would allow some pressure from opponents instead of them sitting in base for drop
I saw the game where InnO suicided his medievacs + hellbats against sOs and certain zergs and eventhough I'm a big terran fan, I thought it was stupid... (oracles are stupid too, worst than banshees)
I totally agree with the fact that transformation upgrade should become more viable or removed but I don't know how would it slows drop. Maybe you shoulve said both BF nerf and transformation buff
EDIT: I know there are more stupid units (because they are either too good/bad/weird) but I really appreciate the fact that blizzard slowly recognises problems. the only problem is that they are TOO slow to recognise...
The problem is that they don't have a design goal, other than reaching 50% winrates with all matchups. If something about the gameplay is utterly retarded, they don't mind as long as it doesn't break 'the balance'.
This is the way they've been designing their games since after World of Warcraft.
I hope they kill the mine + hellbat in LotV, but for now, they might as well lower the damage back to beta levels- 10 (+9 vs light)- and remove the bio tag / weird cargo patch. If they can't fix mech right, then I dunno...
-nobody built beta hellbats because mech hadn't been fixed, and tempest + vipers gutted mech and still do
The one problem which Blizzard is facing now is that they cannot make current units changed too much because of the amount of time passed from the release of hots. People are already used to it.I'm not saying that hellbats dont need change, but I think it should be slightly nerfed to help mech unitl Lov (i'm not sure which one is right. lov or Lotv?) comes out. too late to change mech now because there won't be any huge change/ new units, which is soooooo sad
People have begged blizzard to not patch the game since day one and gave them a lot of shit for their balance politics in WoL. HotS being left in this state is completely on the community.
And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
On July 03 2013 14:43 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote: Easiest is solution is lower hellbat damage against scvs/probes/drones only.(light, smight)... pretty sure Blizz did this will blue flame hellions Or have a lost cost upgrade in the armory which allows hellions to become hellbats.... this would slow down the speed which hellbat drops arrive, which would allow some pressure from opponents instead of them sitting in base for drop
I saw the game where InnO suicided his medievacs + hellbats against sOs and certain zergs and eventhough I'm a big terran fan, I thought it was stupid... (oracles are stupid too, worst than banshees)
I totally agree with the fact that transformation upgrade should become more viable or removed but I don't know how would it slows drop. Maybe you shoulve said both BF nerf and transformation buff
EDIT: I know there are more stupid units (because they are either too good/bad/weird) but I really appreciate the fact that blizzard slowly recognises problems. the only problem is that they are TOO slow to recognise...
The problem is that they don't have a design goal, other than reaching 50% winrates with all matchups. If something about the gameplay is utterly retarded, they don't mind as long as it doesn't break 'the balance'.
This is the way they've been designing their games since after World of Warcraft.
I hope they kill the mine + hellbat in LotV, but for now, they might as well lower the damage back to beta levels- 10 (+9 vs light)- and remove the bio tag / weird cargo patch. If they can't fix mech right, then I dunno...
-nobody built beta hellbats because mech hadn't been fixed, and tempest + vipers gutted mech and still do
The one problem which Blizzard is facing now is that they cannot make current units changed too much because of the amount of time passed from the release of hots. People are already used to it.I'm not saying that hellbats dont need change, but I think it should be slightly nerfed to help mech unitl Lov (i'm not sure which one is right. lov or Lotv?) comes out. too late to change mech now because there won't be any huge change/ new units, which is soooooo sad
People have begged blizzard to not patch the game since day one and gave them a lot of shit for their balance politics in WoL. HotS being left in this state is completely on the community.
And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Well at least it is still not as bad as bio in BW TvP I think. And that makes me don't understand why people really hell bent on making Mech totally viable in SC2.
Hellbats are fine. Players like Bomber and Taeja have already shown that numerous openings can completely destroy hellbat drops. TvT is the only matchup where mech is viable, or do people like marines so much they want to see marines in every matchup?
It's funny how people are always complaining that marine marauder is OP, and how Terran can win using T1 units. Now that Terran has a non T1 melee unit, people are saying they prefer watching marines every game instead?
And then there are the 50% of people in this thread who don't even play Terran who are crying cos they like to A move win.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
On July 03 2013 17:07 Lock0n wrote: Hellbats are fine. Players like Bomber and Taeja have already shown that numerous openings can completely destroy hellbat drops. TvT is the only matchup where mech is viable, or do people like marines so much they want to see marines in every matchup?
It's funny how people are always complaining that marine marauder is OP, and how Terran can win using T1 units. Now that Terran has a non T1 melee unit, people are saying they prefer watching marines every game instead?
And then there are the 50% of people in this thread who don't even play Terran who are crying cos they like to A move win.
On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote: I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
I would go for this , minor needs in effectiveness and timing for a while ....
On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote: I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad. The above changes will obsolete the hellbat in TvZ and TvP, returning marauders to the frontline. The only Terran unit for splash remaining is: 1. siege tank 2. widow mine 3. hellion. 4. raven
Widow mines can be faked out with hallucinated units, meaning... widow mine lines are useless against death ball clashes as well as friendly fire. They have proven to actually help the mass chargelot remax opponent as widow mines will hit their own from targeting the zealots.
Siege tanks aren't so hot since the last nerfs, don't get me started about lategame hellion run-bys.
On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote: I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
I would go for this , minor needs in effectiveness and timing for a while ....
I agree with no2 (which is what blizzard wants) but 1 and 3 sounds weird. I actually want hellbat gets +1 armor (not sure light unit can have armor) or some health boost and make it pure mech, but I hardly think blizzard will remove bio tag ever. If they do, many won't QQ though.
And require 2 upgrade? its gonna be like terran hydra! I rather remove the whole transformation upgrade that hellions comes with transformation when armory finish
On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote: I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
Choose one or all
1) It doesn't help TvT 2) A more refined suggestion was discussed in the previous pages and ON THIS VERY PAGE, and shown to be inadequate 3) Same counterarguments as for (2).
Edit: Additionally, we need to stop with random suggestions: "It's simple, let's nerf the Batman". You need to actually argue WHY a nerf is needed (June balance stats DO NOT support this), AND what the actual effects. If you want to make a suggestion, have the common courtesy of thinking about if for more than 2 seconds.
On July 03 2013 14:26 fezvez wrote: I would like the bio tag to remain (even though it is nonsensical, it makes sense in term of gameplay)
My favourite option so far is to reduce damage to 18 + 4 vs light, and with BFH it becomes 18 + 12 vs light (the same as right now)
This way, unupgraded hellbats would 3-shot marines and SCVs in the beginning of the game, but would still 2-shot drones and probes, thus keeping hellbat drops as viable openers in TvP and TvZ.
This is my final stand. (despite of my personal bias! Zerg UP! Terran OP! XD)
On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote: I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad. The above changes will obsolete the hellbat in TvZ and TvP, returning marauders to the frontline. The only Terran unit for splash remaining is: 1. siege tank 2. widow mine 3. hellion. 4. raven
Widow mines can be faked out with hallucinated units, meaning... widow mine lines are useless against death ball clashes as well as friendly fire. They have proven to actually help the mass chargelot remax opponent as widow mines will hit their own from targeting the zealots.
Siege tanks aren't so hot since the last nerfs, don't get me started about lategame hellion run-bys.
It is bad and can u explain why? this does not have any relation to splash. The problem in TvT is it is too easy/fast to drop in 7mins time (well this is true for all match ups) and defenses cannot be set up in time or it is not effiecient. Waste a bunker and marines in each mineral line? a turret? no problem just suicide the medivac, 200 minerals is nothing to a muling terran.
I can comment on your widow mine issue but it has nothing to do about the hellbat suggestions. you can still have them do splash damage vs protoss, vs voids by proper deployment in mass. I could put a vod link but I would leave that for you to look since it seems you dont know what you are talking about. And wtf? siege tank nerfs? late game hellion runbys WUT?
I you think you have some better ideas, try to post it. Your explanation about splash again has nothing to do with the ideas above, you should feel bad for that
On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote: I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
I would go for this , minor needs in effectiveness and timing for a while ....
I agree with no2 (which is what blizzard wants) but 1 and 3 sounds weird. I actually want hellbat gets +1 armor (not sure light unit can have armor) or some health boost and make it pure mech, but I hardly think blizzard will remove bio tag ever. If they do, many won't QQ though.
And require 2 upgrade? its gonna be like terran hydra! I rather remove the whole transformation upgrade that hellions comes with transformation when armory finish
Why would number 3 be weird? the problem is hellbat and drops. upgrade before drops can still be worth it but terran needs to invest more or make it just delayed not coming in 7:30 mins and killing all workers.
I also have another thing come up to mind, make hellbats armored, and remove healing option but this sounds drastic. Just makes sense since they took parts of themselves and turned arms into shields, made their HP total to 135, it is big and slow so should be armored (looks like a marauder/firebat).
No you dont need to have 2 upgrades to be implemented, as I said they can choose one of those, pre ignigter or transform. Each one of the options would make it more pleasant than the current state as it would delay the 7:30 drop. 1st option would make the early drop 3 shot workers, the later drop would be the same potency as the current state.
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
The primary radius is TINY and I think about three Zerglings fill it up, so not many units will be hit by any increase in damage but the real change comes from the secondary and tertiary radius.
The real reason why Blizzard dont make any serious effort of fixing mech is that they hate it with a passion. It seems quite odd that they added so many anti-tank units to the other races and then leave the playstyle useless as a dead goldfish. They are fully in the "speed is best to make a STRATEGY game interesting" mode ... which is ludicrous, because strategy is more than a build order but also premeditated and carefully executed unit movement. Thus we get improved harrassment units and not improved army units for Terran. A clear indicator is the "new AA mode" for the Thor ... which deals roughly the same damage as a Goliath from BW against a single target ... and that with more easily mass produced air units.
Thus any of the "oh lets just require transformation to get Hellbats" or "put bonus damage into an upgrade" are fine and well, but they wont be implemented because Blizzard like harrassment and has said they want more of it.
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
The primary radius is TINY and I think about three Zerglings fill it up, so not many units will be hit by any increase in damage but the real change comes from the secondary and tertiary radius.
The real reason why Blizzard dont make any serious effort of fixing mech is that they hate it with a passion. It seems quite odd that they added so many anti-tank units to the other races and then leave the playstyle useless as a dead goldfish. They are fully in the "speed is best to make a STRATEGY game interesting" mode ... which is ludicrous, because strategy is more than a build order but also premeditated and carefully executed unit movement. Thus we get improved harrassment units and not improved army units for Terran. A clear indicator is the "new AA mode" for the Thor ... which deals roughly the same damage as a Goliath from BW against a single target ... and that with more easily mass produced air units.
Thus any of the "oh lets just require transformation to get Hellbats" or "put bonus damage into an upgrade" are fine and well, but they wont be implemented because Blizzard like harrassment and has said they want more of it.
You forget: Workers die in clumps (just what terran needs, more ways to kill workers quickly) Buildings die faster Marines die in 1 hit Marauders die in 2 hits instead of 3 Hellions die in 2 instead of 3 Basically everything dies in 1-3 less hits.
70 dmg worked in BW because you could force 15 tanks to fire on 1 unit, that doesnt happen in sc2. 70 damage will not happen, ever.
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
The primary radius is TINY and I think about three Zerglings fill it up, so not many units will be hit by any increase in damage but the real change comes from the secondary and tertiary radius.
The real reason why Blizzard dont make any serious effort of fixing mech is that they hate it with a passion. It seems quite odd that they added so many anti-tank units to the other races and then leave the playstyle useless as a dead goldfish. They are fully in the "speed is best to make a STRATEGY game interesting" mode ... which is ludicrous, because strategy is more than a build order but also premeditated and carefully executed unit movement. Thus we get improved harrassment units and not improved army units for Terran. A clear indicator is the "new AA mode" for the Thor ... which deals roughly the same damage as a Goliath from BW against a single target ... and that with more easily mass produced air units.
Thus any of the "oh lets just require transformation to get Hellbats" or "put bonus damage into an upgrade" are fine and well, but they wont be implemented because Blizzard like harrassment and has said they want more of it.
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
The primary radius is TINY and I think about three Zerglings fill it up, so not many units will be hit by any increase in damage but the real change comes from the secondary and tertiary radius.
The real reason why Blizzard dont make any serious effort of fixing mech is that they hate it with a passion. It seems quite odd that they added so many anti-tank units to the other races and then leave the playstyle useless as a dead goldfish. They are fully in the "speed is best to make a STRATEGY game interesting" mode ... which is ludicrous, because strategy is more than a build order but also premeditated and carefully executed unit movement. Thus we get improved harrassment units and not improved army units for Terran. A clear indicator is the "new AA mode" for the Thor ... which deals roughly the same damage as a Goliath from BW against a single target ... and that with more easily mass produced air units.
Thus any of the "oh lets just require transformation to get Hellbats" or "put bonus damage into an upgrade" are fine and well, but they wont be implemented because Blizzard like harrassment and has said they want more of it.
You forget: Workers die in clumps (just what terran needs, more ways to kill workers quickly) Buildings die faster Marines die in 1 hit Marauders die in 2 hits instead of 3 Hellions die in 2 instead of 3 Basically everything dies in 1-3 less hits.
70 dmg worked in BW because you could force 15 tanks to fire on 1 unit, that doesnt happen in sc2. 70 damage will not happen, ever.
And what is the problem with needing fewer hits than they need now? The current damage is LAUGHABLE because it FORCES you to have all your Siege Tanks in one tight army and even then you get overrun by Zerglings and whatnot and lose OR they run past you and simply destroy your vital production (which is hardest for Terrans to even get due to the addons and the need to have an SCV construct the building in the first place).
The fact is that most people who blabber on about Siege Tanks dealing such an awesome damage totally ignore the nature of splash damage and the tiny area of the core radius. They are usually blinded by the visually large explosions on the battlefield and in my opinion it is time to make these visuals have some meaning again ... to be threatening!
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
The primary radius is TINY and I think about three Zerglings fill it up, so not many units will be hit by any increase in damage but the real change comes from the secondary and tertiary radius.
The real reason why Blizzard dont make any serious effort of fixing mech is that they hate it with a passion. It seems quite odd that they added so many anti-tank units to the other races and then leave the playstyle useless as a dead goldfish. They are fully in the "speed is best to make a STRATEGY game interesting" mode ... which is ludicrous, because strategy is more than a build order but also premeditated and carefully executed unit movement. Thus we get improved harrassment units and not improved army units for Terran. A clear indicator is the "new AA mode" for the Thor ... which deals roughly the same damage as a Goliath from BW against a single target ... and that with more easily mass produced air units.
Thus any of the "oh lets just require transformation to get Hellbats" or "put bonus damage into an upgrade" are fine and well, but they wont be implemented because Blizzard like harrassment and has said they want more of it.
In BW, tanks were strong at 70 damage. You usually dragged mines to deal friendly fire and used methods of drawing their fire such that they wasted a lot of shots. In SC2, that doesnt happen. 20 +3 weapon siege tanks would beat anything on the ground.
Splash isnt the only thing that makes them strong, it is their range and their damage.
A zerg roach with AOE damage thats essentially what it is.. speaking of wich, hellbats>roaches
as far as i know they should only be strong vs light units,(lings,drones,hydras,marines,zealots etc)
and get countered or at least be non-effective vs roaches,queens etc, that can help out alot , but at this stage they dont.. they completely own roaches..
luckily alot of terrans in my skill level dont go hellbats..
I would estimate a double hellbat drop is sort-of like a storm drop (I only play protoss), and HT's need a storm upgrade, so tying in damage to the blue flame upgrade might make some sense.
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
60or more flat damage would completely break TvZ and TvT, as tanks would one shot marines and kill 2times as many banelings/zerglings per shot. Of course it's easy as hell to make something viable by making it totally overpowered. However I can't believe that anybody would start playing mech in TvZ due to this. Suddenly each of your tankshots is like a 13range widow mine vs banelings. The ultimate marinespam can begin... or reach a new max.
On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote: I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad. The above changes will obsolete the hellbat in TvZ and TvP, returning marauders to the frontline. The only Terran unit for splash remaining is: 1. siege tank 2. widow mine 3. hellion. 4. raven
Widow mines can be faked out with hallucinated units, meaning... widow mine lines are useless against death ball clashes as well as friendly fire. They have proven to actually help the mass chargelot remax opponent as widow mines will hit their own from targeting the zealots.
Siege tanks aren't so hot since the last nerfs, don't get me started about lategame hellion run-bys.
It is bad and can u explain why? this does not have any relation to splash. The problem in TvT is it is too easy/fast to drop in 7mins time (well this is true for all match ups) and defenses cannot be set up in time or it is not effiecient. Waste a bunker and marines in each mineral line? a turret? no problem just suicide the medivac, 200 minerals is nothing to a muling terran.
I can comment on your widow mine issue but it has nothing to do about the hellbat suggestions. you can still have them do splash damage vs protoss, vs voids by proper deployment in mass. I could put a vod link but I would leave that for you to look since it seems you dont know what you are talking about. And wtf? siege tank nerfs? late game hellion runbys WUT?
I you think you have some better ideas, try to post it. Your explanation about splash again has nothing to do with the ideas above, you should feel bad for that
Simple. Mech has low unit count, each unit must count in order to survive mid-game attacks. Which was why BW had firebats AND spider mines both available immediately without teching up.
WoL Terran had no choice but to go mass marine/hellion and micro heavily (lining up the flames while kiting marines back) just to trade equally against ling/roach, zealot/archon, when they can just a-move. Hardly fair. With the introduction of hellbats, both players can theoretically come out equal if microed equally. E.g. A-moved hellbat/marine trades well with a-moved mass ling/roach and mass zealot/archon.
I like how you shoot yourself in the foot by first saying how easy it is to drop in 7min but its impossible to defend against them even though both have access to the same tech tree, income levels and abilities...
Since you've not been reading my past posts. Let me repeat. The cost of two turrets and a WM w/ ebay (400m 25g) is CHEAPER than MEDIVAC & TWO HELLBATS w/ Armory (450m 200g).
Every second the opponent spends dodging turrets is doing indirect damage, same as sniping a queen. Stop them before they land, force them to drop further from your mineral line and closer to your ramp with your army.
On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote: I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad. The above changes will obsolete the hellbat in TvZ and TvP, returning marauders to the frontline. The only Terran unit for splash remaining is: 1. siege tank 2. widow mine 3. hellion. 4. raven
Widow mines can be faked out with hallucinated units, meaning... widow mine lines are useless against death ball clashes as well as friendly fire. They have proven to actually help the mass chargelot remax opponent as widow mines will hit their own from targeting the zealots.
Siege tanks aren't so hot since the last nerfs, don't get me started about lategame hellion run-bys.
It is bad and can u explain why? this does not have any relation to splash. The problem in TvT is it is too easy/fast to drop in 7mins time (well this is true for all match ups) and defenses cannot be set up in time or it is not effiecient. Waste a bunker and marines in each mineral line? a turret? no problem just suicide the medivac, 200 minerals is nothing to a muling terran.
I can comment on your widow mine issue but it has nothing to do about the hellbat suggestions. you can still have them do splash damage vs protoss, vs voids by proper deployment in mass. I could put a vod link but I would leave that for you to look since it seems you dont know what you are talking about. And wtf? siege tank nerfs? late game hellion runbys WUT?
I you think you have some better ideas, try to post it. Your explanation about splash again has nothing to do with the ideas above, you should feel bad for that
Simple. Mech has low unit count, each unit must count in order to survive mid-game attacks. Which was why BW had firebats AND spider mines both available immediately without teching up.
WoL Terran had no choice but to go mass marine/hellion and micro heavily (lining up the flames while kiting marines back) just to trade equally against ling/roach, zealot/archon, when they can just a-move. Hardly fair. With the introduction of hellbats, both players can theoretically come out equal if microed equally. E.g. A-moved hellbat/marine trades well with a-moved mass ling/roach and mass zealot/archon.
I like how you shoot yourself in the foot by first saying how easy it is to drop in 7min but its impossible to defend against them even though both have access to the same tech tree, income levels and abilities...
Since you've not been reading my past posts. Let me repeat. The cost of two turrets and a WM w/ ebay (400m 25g) is CHEAPER than MEDIVAC & TWO HELLBATS w/ Armory (450m 200g).
Every second the opponent spends dodging turrets is doing indirect damage, same as sniping a queen. Stop them before they land, force them to drop further from your mineral line and closer to your ramp with your army.
It's not as easy as you make it sound. I've seen top Terran players like MVP have problems dealing with these drops
On June 11 2013 10:56 jcroisdale wrote: Something there not even considering is there late game utility. TvP when the terran goes mech, is so much stronger, because the hellbat is such an efficient harassment unit.
The early game attacks are hard, but late game is just as difficult.
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
60or more flat damage would completely break TvZ and TvT, as tanks would one shot marines and kill 2times as many banelings/zerglings per shot. Of course it's easy as hell to make something viable by making it totally overpowered. However I can't believe that anybody would start playing mech in TvZ due to this. Suddenly each of your tankshots is like a 13range widow mine vs banelings. The ultimate marinespam can begin... or reach a new max.
The reality is they want widow mines to be your go to splash damage as terran, and tanks are more or less a support/defense unit. I think it works better this way in sc2. Mines need to be fairly close to their target to actually work, so it encourages more action packed games when compared to large stalemate siege tank lines. I also think it takes a little more skill to control bunches of mines than it does tanks.
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
60or more flat damage would completely break TvZ and TvT, as tanks would one shot marines and kill 2times as many banelings/zerglings per shot. Of course it's easy as hell to make something viable by making it totally overpowered. However I can't believe that anybody would start playing mech in TvZ due to this. Suddenly each of your tankshots is like a 13range widow mine vs banelings. The ultimate marinespam can begin... or reach a new max.
The reality is they want widow mines to be your go to splash damage as terran, and tanks are more or less a support/defense unit. I think it works better this way in sc2. Mines need to be fairly close to their target to actually work, so it encourages more action packed games when compared to large stalemate siege tank lines. I also think it takes a little more skill to control bunches of mines than it does tanks.
I don't think that blizzard at this point really "wants" something apart from balance. They have commented more than they will try to bring variety into the game if it is easy, but they won't force things. It just turns out at this point that WMs are a more stable option in TvZ, and tanks in TvT and neither is needed in TvP.
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
60or more flat damage would completely break TvZ and TvT, as tanks would one shot marines and kill 2times as many banelings/zerglings per shot. Of course it's easy as hell to make something viable by making it totally overpowered. However I can't believe that anybody would start playing mech in TvZ due to this. Suddenly each of your tankshots is like a 13range widow mine vs banelings. The ultimate marinespam can begin... or reach a new max.
The reality is they want widow mines to be your go to splash damage as terran, and tanks are more or less a support/defense unit. I think it works better this way in sc2. Mines need to be fairly close to their target to actually work, so it encourages more action packed games when compared to large stalemate siege tank lines. I also think it takes a little more skill to control bunches of mines than it does tanks.
I don't think that blizzard at this point really "wants" something apart from balance. They have commented more than they will try to bring variety into the game if it is easy, but they won't force things. It just turns out at this point that WMs are a more stable option in TvZ, and tanks in TvT and neither is needed in TvP.
It's not that they're not needed, it's just in TvP bio needs mobility which tanks can't give and widowmines unless you're amazing at sniping observers (which bio can't really do as well as mech) widowmines just get owned by collosus.
I asked this in the strategy forum and didnt get an answer: Have terrans experimented with using hellbat + hellion + widow mine drops against Z and P?
They all fit into a single medivac and if you drop hellbat + hellion first they may not see the widow mine, or if you drop the mine first they may expect more mines or marines instead. Also, hellbat + hellion still 2 shot workers, and hellions can also chase the workers that got away after the first hellbat was dropped.
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
60or more flat damage would completely break TvZ and TvT, as tanks would one shot marines and kill 2times as many banelings/zerglings per shot. Of course it's easy as hell to make something viable by making it totally overpowered. However I can't believe that anybody would start playing mech in TvZ due to this. Suddenly each of your tankshots is like a 13range widow mine vs banelings. The ultimate marinespam can begin... or reach a new max.
Oh sure ... one-shotting 3 Marines will totally break TvT. Maybe the bio player will need to adjust his use of the Marines OR maybe lead on with a few Marauders to take the shots?
Honestly such "it will totally break X or Y" or "it wont work" posts are just as bad as anything Blizzard comes up with. The whole problem is YOUR EXPECTATION of the matchup. You simply got used to the way in which Blizzard designed the game - i.e. stim and a-move -, but that doesnt mean it is "the truth" or "the only way to balance".
Since the bio player can more easily rebuild his Marines it should be ok that the Siege Tanks "annihilate" (speak: are pretty strong against) Marines. You arent supposed to win by a-moving squishy units into a sieged up tank line. Maybe you need to drop some Hellbats on top of the tanks, maybe micro - yes, that would be a first for SC2 forcing the ATTACKER to micro - and move in with Marauders first. Maybe you need to gain air superiority first before attacking tanks, maybe you need to ignore the tanks and drop multiple locations ... the possibilities are much greater than "bio ball vs bio ball" ... but sadly Blizzard doesnt want the game to be flexible.
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
60or more flat damage would completely break TvZ and TvT, as tanks would one shot marines and kill 2times as many banelings/zerglings per shot. Of course it's easy as hell to make something viable by making it totally overpowered. However I can't believe that anybody would start playing mech in TvZ due to this. Suddenly each of your tankshots is like a 13range widow mine vs banelings. The ultimate marinespam can begin... or reach a new max.
The reality is they want widow mines to be your go to splash damage as terran, and tanks are more or less a support/defense unit. I think it works better this way in sc2. Mines need to be fairly close to their target to actually work, so it encourages more action packed games when compared to large stalemate siege tank lines. I also think it takes a little more skill to control bunches of mines than it does tanks.
I don't think that blizzard at this point really "wants" something apart from balance. They have commented more than they will try to bring variety into the game if it is easy, but they won't force things. It just turns out at this point that WMs are a more stable option in TvZ, and tanks in TvT and neither is needed in TvP.
Are you really this simple minded and dont see the evidence for what it is? There have been comments from David Kim about making sure that bio is being kept more viable than mech on purpose because they dont like mech. Havent you realized the "trend" with HotS to "more mobility" and "more harrassment" (which is the opposite to slow methodical and systematic siege play)? Havent you read the comments by the Blizzard team that they want to make the game more aggressive (which is the reason for more speed and harrassment). Put this together and you get a pretty clear picture that Blizzard devs have "a vision" and that they will stop at nothing to make it work. In case you doubt me just a quick reminder about the Spore Crawler change ...
Blizzard has turned SC2 into a "Real Time Action" game instead of a "Real Time Strategy" game and they are doing everything to keep it that way. The things they added in HotS clearly show this.
I think it would be interesting to try adding +10 damage vs Massive on Tanks, but only when they are in siege mode. So it would only affect Tank matchups vs Thor/Archon/Collossi/Ultralisk/Buildings. It would help make mech a little more viable in TvZ and TvP without being completely overpowered. Protoss would still be able to counter Tanks with Zealot/Immortal/any air unit, and Zerg would still be able to counter with Swarm Host/Viper/any air unit. But because there would be less units to counter tanks, it would be easier to build an army composition that includes them.
Another change that I'd like to see for mech is +1 or +2 extra range on call down nuke. This would make TvT tank standoffs much more fun to watch, without affecting other matchups too much. (You would still need a unit/scan to provide vision in order to Nuke the full range)
On July 04 2013 14:13 RoboBob wrote: I think it would be interesting to try adding +10 damage vs Massive on Tanks, but only when they are in siege mode. So it would only affect Tank matchups vs Thor/Archon/Collossi/Ultralisk/Buildings. It would help make mech a little more viable in TvZ and TvP without being completely overpowered. Protoss would still be able to counter Tanks with Zealot/Immortal/any air unit, and Zerg would still be able to counter with Swarm Host/Viper/any air unit. But because there would be less units to counter tanks, it would be easier to build an army composition that includes them.
Another change that I'd like to see for mech is +1 or +2 extra range on call down nuke. This would make TvT tank standoffs much more fun to watch, without affecting other matchups too much. (You would still need a unit/scan to provide vision in order to Nuke the full range)
Useless ... because sieged Tanks die to Zealots, massive numbers of Zerglings and not to Archons, Colossi, Thors and such.
While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
60or more flat damage would completely break TvZ and TvT, as tanks would one shot marines and kill 2times as many banelings/zerglings per shot. Of course it's easy as hell to make something viable by making it totally overpowered. However I can't believe that anybody would start playing mech in TvZ due to this. Suddenly each of your tankshots is like a 13range widow mine vs banelings. The ultimate marinespam can begin... or reach a new max.
Oh sure ... one-shotting 3 Marines will totally break TvT. Maybe the bio player will need to adjust his use of the Marines OR maybe lead on with a few Marauders to take the shots?
Honestly such "it will totally break X or Y" or "it wont work" posts are just as bad as anything Blizzard comes up with. The whole problem is YOUR EXPECTATION of the matchup. You simply got used to the way in which Blizzard designed the game - i.e. stim and a-move -, but that doesnt mean it is "the truth" or "the only way to balance".
Since the bio player can more easily rebuild his Marines it should be ok that the Siege Tanks "annihilate" (speak: are pretty strong against) Marines. You arent supposed to win by a-moving squishy units into a sieged up tank line. Maybe you need to drop some Hellbats on top of the tanks, maybe micro - yes, that would be a first for SC2 forcing the ATTACKER to micro - and move in with Marauders first. Maybe you need to gain air superiority first before attacking tanks, maybe you need to ignore the tanks and drop multiple locations ... the possibilities are much greater than "bio ball vs bio ball" ... but sadly Blizzard doesnt want the game to be flexible.
Why don't YOU adjust your tankusage? It's you who started the whining about the tank not meeting YOUR EXPECTATIONS.
Not gonna comment much more on that. If you think that marines can stim-move over siegetanks you are just lacking gameknowledge.
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
60or more flat damage would completely break TvZ and TvT, as tanks would one shot marines and kill 2times as many banelings/zerglings per shot. Of course it's easy as hell to make something viable by making it totally overpowered. However I can't believe that anybody would start playing mech in TvZ due to this. Suddenly each of your tankshots is like a 13range widow mine vs banelings. The ultimate marinespam can begin... or reach a new max.
The reality is they want widow mines to be your go to splash damage as terran, and tanks are more or less a support/defense unit. I think it works better this way in sc2. Mines need to be fairly close to their target to actually work, so it encourages more action packed games when compared to large stalemate siege tank lines. I also think it takes a little more skill to control bunches of mines than it does tanks.
I don't think that blizzard at this point really "wants" something apart from balance. They have commented more than they will try to bring variety into the game if it is easy, but they won't force things. It just turns out at this point that WMs are a more stable option in TvZ, and tanks in TvT and neither is needed in TvP.
Are you really this simple minded and dont see the evidence for what it is? There have been comments from David Kim about making sure that bio is being kept more viable than mech on purpose because they dont like mech. Havent you realized the "trend" with HotS to "more mobility" and "more harrassment" (which is the opposite to slow methodical and systematic siege play)? Havent you read the comments by the Blizzard team that they want to make the game more aggressive (which is the reason for more speed and harrassment). Put this together and you get a pretty clear picture that Blizzard devs have "a vision" and that they will stop at nothing to make it work. In case you doubt me just a quick reminder about the Spore Crawler change ...
Blizzard has turned SC2 into a "Real Time Action" game instead of a "Real Time Strategy" game and they are doing everything to keep it that way. The things they added in HotS clearly show this.
quote, quote, quote. Obviously we are reading different comments, because the ones that I know said things along the lines of: "We try to make mech viable but won't force it." Never have I read the sentence "We hate mech." But I'm sure you can find it.
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
I dont? I kind of explained it in several posts about it used to doing massive overdamage. Or did you not understand my post was sarcastic in nature?
"70 dmg worked in BW because you could force 15 tanks to fire on 1 unit, that doesnt happen in sc2. 70 damage will not happen, ever." "In BW, tanks were strong at 70 damage. You usually dragged mines to deal friendly fire and used methods of drawing their fire such that they wasted a lot of shots. In SC2, that doesnt happen. 20 +3 weapon siege tanks would beat anything on the ground." I even demonstrated the effects of smart shot back during the beta in 2011 + Show Spoiler +
EDIT: Not during beta, thought I had one that was. EDIT2: Found it, I had one from july 2010, but people werent satisfied with the tests so I made the above one in 2011
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
That's true. But not even broodwar featured 70flat damage such as rabiator demands. Apart from overkill (which he didn't demand), broodwar tanks did 35 vs small 52.5 vs medium 70 vs large
It's just a wrong demand, there is no need to buff tanks vs marine, hellion, zergling, baneling, hydralisk and would severly screw with the balance of biomech vs Z and biomech vs mech. The tank should get a different fix, not a plain - huge - damage buff vs everything.
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
That's true. But not even broodwar featured 70flat damage such as rabiator demands. Apart from overkill (which he didn't demand), broodwar tanks did 35 vs small 52.5 vs medium 70 vs large
It's just a wrong demand, there is no need to buff tanks vs marine, hellion, zergling, baneling, hydralisk and would severly screw with the balance of biomech vs Z and biomech vs mech. The tank should get a different fix, not a plain - huge - damage buff vs everything.
I am not saying you need to buff the tank. The reason for the tank being inferior in Starcraft 2 is higher cost in supply, faster unit movement and bigger armies in smaller areas. The tank can still be a very good tool for offence and defence and I think no one doubts that a well positioned tankline is devastating. Everyone that ever played against a good mech user will agree. So yes, I wasn't argueing the point that we need a 70 flat damage tank (lol, I'm bio user, get out of my way with a 70 damage flat tank T_T) but without smart fire I would also say the old-tank wouldn't be overpowered.
Personally I feel there's no need to buff the tank. It has its role as defensive tool and does work against certain styles as well. I'd rather say leave the game as it is now. The only change I'd like to see is a change of the MSC. The mothership core currently provides too much offensive potential while also granting defensive potential to a level that shuts down every early game aggression that Terran has to offer.
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
I dont? I kind of explained it in several posts about it used to doing massive overdamage. Or did you not understand my post was sarcastic in nature?
"70 dmg worked in BW because you could force 15 tanks to fire on 1 unit, that doesnt happen in sc2. 70 damage will not happen, ever." "In BW, tanks were strong at 70 damage. You usually dragged mines to deal friendly fire and used methods of drawing their fire such that they wasted a lot of shots. In SC2, that doesnt happen. 20 +3 weapon siege tanks would beat anything on the ground." I even demonstrated the effects of smart shot back during the beta in 2011 + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw88bbU8lys
EDIT: Not during beta, thought I had one that was. EDIT2: Found it, I had one from july 2010, but people werent satisfied with the tests so I made the above one in 2011
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
I dont? I kind of explained it in several posts about it used to doing massive overdamage. Or did you not understand my post was sarcastic in nature?
"70 dmg worked in BW because you could force 15 tanks to fire on 1 unit, that doesnt happen in sc2. 70 damage will not happen, ever." "In BW, tanks were strong at 70 damage. You usually dragged mines to deal friendly fire and used methods of drawing their fire such that they wasted a lot of shots. In SC2, that doesnt happen. 20 +3 weapon siege tanks would beat anything on the ground." I even demonstrated the effects of smart shot back during the beta in 2011 + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw88bbU8lys
EDIT: Not during beta, thought I had one that was. EDIT2: Found it, I had one from july 2010, but people werent satisfied with the tests so I made the above one in 2011
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
I dont? I kind of explained it in several posts about it used to doing massive overdamage. Or did you not understand my post was sarcastic in nature?
"70 dmg worked in BW because you could force 15 tanks to fire on 1 unit, that doesnt happen in sc2. 70 damage will not happen, ever." "In BW, tanks were strong at 70 damage. You usually dragged mines to deal friendly fire and used methods of drawing their fire such that they wasted a lot of shots. In SC2, that doesnt happen. 20 +3 weapon siege tanks would beat anything on the ground." I even demonstrated the effects of smart shot back during the beta in 2011 + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw88bbU8lys
EDIT: Not during beta, thought I had one that was. EDIT2: Found it, I had one from july 2010, but people werent satisfied with the tests so I made the above one in 2011
Full Romanian I guess t.t
I didnt feel any sarcasm there, so apparently. Or maybe you need to work on your sarcasm. I didnt read all your posts in the thread so I dont know your stance on the matter =\
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
I dont? I kind of explained it in several posts about it used to doing massive overdamage. Or did you not understand my post was sarcastic in nature?
"70 dmg worked in BW because you could force 15 tanks to fire on 1 unit, that doesnt happen in sc2. 70 damage will not happen, ever." "In BW, tanks were strong at 70 damage. You usually dragged mines to deal friendly fire and used methods of drawing their fire such that they wasted a lot of shots. In SC2, that doesnt happen. 20 +3 weapon siege tanks would beat anything on the ground." I even demonstrated the effects of smart shot back during the beta in 2011 + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw88bbU8lys
EDIT: Not during beta, thought I had one that was. EDIT2: Found it, I had one from july 2010, but people werent satisfied with the tests so I made the above one in 2011
Full Romanian I guess t.t
I didnt feel any sarcasm there, so apparently. Or maybe you need to work on your sarcasm. I didnt read all your posts in the thread so I dont know your stance on the matter =\
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
I dont? I kind of explained it in several posts about it used to doing massive overdamage. Or did you not understand my post was sarcastic in nature?
"70 dmg worked in BW because you could force 15 tanks to fire on 1 unit, that doesnt happen in sc2. 70 damage will not happen, ever." "In BW, tanks were strong at 70 damage. You usually dragged mines to deal friendly fire and used methods of drawing their fire such that they wasted a lot of shots. In SC2, that doesnt happen. 20 +3 weapon siege tanks would beat anything on the ground." I even demonstrated the effects of smart shot back during the beta in 2011 + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw88bbU8lys
EDIT: Not during beta, thought I had one that was. EDIT2: Found it, I had one from july 2010, but people werent satisfied with the tests so I made the above one in 2011
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
I dont? I kind of explained it in several posts about it used to doing massive overdamage. Or did you not understand my post was sarcastic in nature?
"70 dmg worked in BW because you could force 15 tanks to fire on 1 unit, that doesnt happen in sc2. 70 damage will not happen, ever." "In BW, tanks were strong at 70 damage. You usually dragged mines to deal friendly fire and used methods of drawing their fire such that they wasted a lot of shots. In SC2, that doesnt happen. 20 +3 weapon siege tanks would beat anything on the ground." I even demonstrated the effects of smart shot back during the beta in 2011 + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw88bbU8lys
EDIT: Not during beta, thought I had one that was. EDIT2: Found it, I had one from july 2010, but people werent satisfied with the tests so I made the above one in 2011
Full Romanian I guess t.t
I didnt feel any sarcasm there, so apparently. Or maybe you need to work on your sarcasm. I didnt read all your posts in the thread so I dont know your stance on the matter =\
On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote: I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
I would go for this , minor needs in effectiveness and timing for a while ....
I agree with no2 (which is what blizzard wants) but 1 and 3 sounds weird. I actually want hellbat gets +1 armor (not sure light unit can have armor) or some health boost and make it pure mech, but I hardly think blizzard will remove bio tag ever. If they do, many won't QQ though.
And require 2 upgrade? its gonna be like terran hydra! I rather remove the whole transformation upgrade that hellions comes with transformation when armory finish
Why would number 3 be weird? the problem is hellbat and drops. upgrade before drops can still be worth it but terran needs to invest more or make it just delayed not coming in 7:30 mins and killing all workers.
I also have another thing come up to mind, make hellbats armored, and remove healing option but this sounds drastic. Just makes sense since they took parts of themselves and turned arms into shields, made their HP total to 135, it is big and slow so should be armored (looks like a marauder/firebat).
No you dont need to have 2 upgrades to be implemented, as I said they can choose one of those, pre ignigter or transform. Each one of the options would make it more pleasant than the current state as it would delay the 7:30 drop. 1st option would make the early drop 3 shot workers, the later drop would be the same potency as the current state.
First, the first option is about reducing durability of hellbat (not making early drop 3 shot. maybe you have mixed up numbers? ). But there is no units that heals only half or quarter since starcraft I alpha. Hellbat is already illogical by being a FACTORY unit that can be both mech and bio and this is even more non sense. And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
Secondly, no 2 is what actually blizzard suggested and not good because it affects other match ups that are not TvT (please read previous posts). That's why I wanted hellbat dmg to be less nerfed.
Thirdly, if you have to get current hellbat after factory-> armory-> techlab on the factory, then research, would you use it? This will nerf not only hellbat drop but also hellbat itself too much in ALL match ups.
Also, making armored (I thought I posted only few posts ago???) will make hellbat blowed by other +armor attackers, which will also affect not only drops but hellbat in general. Hellbat is the meatshield for mech because other mechs are armored but hellbat is not armored.
Hope I have explained well. XP Please read whole posts (I actually did!) because I don't want people just jump in and saying something that what already has been discussed.
Edit: when I say 'affects', it means it affects TOO MUCH.
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
Now you are ridiculous. Siege Tanks have underperformed ever since the map size got bigger than Steppes of War where the current tank values for damage were balanced on. For such tiny/small maps that might be okish, because you can have all your tanks affect the whole map basically, but what about large maps like Whirlwind? Tanks dont have the mobility - which is good - to keep up with other types of armies, but to balance the size of the map you need to spread out your forces much more to be able to defend everywhere. Terrans have no "vs ground" static defense that can be massed for base defense (the Planetary Fortress doesnt really count because it cant be built behind a mineral line for example and due to its size placement is limited).
- If you are soooo fixed on the idea that Siege Tanks are "fine" then tell me why they only one-shot three lousy Zerglings with one shot. In BW they did the same damage to Zerglings as they do now, BUT there were far fewer Zerglings rushing the tanks AND the area of the attack was larger. - People have complained about dying to Zealots in mech TvP and so the Hellbat had to be invented. Did it really? Nope, because giving the Siege Tank a reasonable damage against light instead of a negligible one is ok. - Have you forgotten about the FRIENDLY FIRE splash damage? Any buff to the Siege Tank damage will make them die more easily from friendly fire.
So I think there are quite a lot of arguments why my suggestion would not make the Siege Tank absolutely ridiculously OP.
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
That's true. But not even broodwar featured 70flat damage such as rabiator demands. Apart from overkill (which he didn't demand), broodwar tanks did 35 vs small 52.5 vs medium 70 vs large
It's just a wrong demand, there is no need to buff tanks vs marine, hellion, zergling, baneling, hydralisk and would severly screw with the balance of biomech vs Z and biomech vs mech. The tank should get a different fix, not a plain - huge - damage buff vs everything.
The reasons why I suggested 70 flat damage are ... 1. The radius of the attack is smaller compared to BW. 2. At 70 damage they one-shot Zerglings in the primary and secondary radius. That is basically where the number comes from ...
Why is there no need to buff the tank vs all the small and light units? It is a freaking TANK and should be able to scare away a horde of smaller units to the point that they can not just a-move into a line of tanks and win. The small infantry should be required to use tricks like dropping onto the tank or abducting them or blinding cloud or whatever else.
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
Now you are ridiculous. Siege Tanks have underperformed ever since the map size got bigger than Steppes of War where the current tank values for damage were balanced on. For such tiny/small maps that might be okish, because you can have all your tanks affect the whole map basically, but what about large maps like Whirlwind? Tanks dont have the mobility - which is good - to keep up with other types of armies, but to balance the size of the map you need to spread out your forces much more to be able to defend everywhere. Terrans have no "vs ground" static defense that can be massed for base defense (the Planetary Fortress doesnt really count because it cant be built behind a mineral line for example and due to its size placement is limited).
- If you are soooo fixed on the idea that Siege Tanks are "fine" then tell me why they only one-shot three lousy Zerglings with one shot. In BW they did the same damage to Zerglings as they do now, BUT there were far fewer Zerglings rushing the tanks AND the area of the attack was larger. - People have complained about dying to Zealots in mech TvP and so the Hellbat had to be invented. Did it really? Nope, because giving the Siege Tank a reasonable damage against light instead of a negligible one is ok. - Have you forgotten about the FRIENDLY FIRE splash damage? Any buff to the Siege Tank damage will make them die more easily from friendly fire.
So I think there are quite a lot of arguments why my suggestion would not make the Siege Tank absolutely ridiculously OP.
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
That's true. But not even broodwar featured 70flat damage such as rabiator demands. Apart from overkill (which he didn't demand), broodwar tanks did 35 vs small 52.5 vs medium 70 vs large
It's just a wrong demand, there is no need to buff tanks vs marine, hellion, zergling, baneling, hydralisk and would severly screw with the balance of biomech vs Z and biomech vs mech. The tank should get a different fix, not a plain - huge - damage buff vs everything.
The reasons why I suggested 70 flat damage are ... 1. The radius of the attack is smaller compared to BW. 2. At 70 damage they one-shot Zerglings in the primary and secondary radius. That is basically where the number comes from ...
Why is there no need to buff the tank vs all the small and light units? It is a freaking TANK and should be able to scare away a horde of smaller units to the point that they can not just a-move into a line of tanks and win. The small infantry should be required to use tricks like dropping onto the tank or abducting them or blinding cloud or whatever else.
So your suggestion is: leaving 35+15 vs armored but adding extra dmg(+35 light?)? Can a unit have that complexed stat? Edit: Tell me if i'm wrong
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
60or more flat damage would completely break TvZ and TvT, as tanks would one shot marines and kill 2times as many banelings/zerglings per shot. Of course it's easy as hell to make something viable by making it totally overpowered. However I can't believe that anybody would start playing mech in TvZ due to this. Suddenly each of your tankshots is like a 13range widow mine vs banelings. The ultimate marinespam can begin... or reach a new max.
Oh sure ... one-shotting 3 Marines will totally break TvT. Maybe the bio player will need to adjust his use of the Marines OR maybe lead on with a few Marauders to take the shots?
Honestly such "it will totally break X or Y" or "it wont work" posts are just as bad as anything Blizzard comes up with. The whole problem is YOUR EXPECTATION of the matchup. You simply got used to the way in which Blizzard designed the game - i.e. stim and a-move -, but that doesnt mean it is "the truth" or "the only way to balance".
Since the bio player can more easily rebuild his Marines it should be ok that the Siege Tanks "annihilate" (speak: are pretty strong against) Marines. You arent supposed to win by a-moving squishy units into a sieged up tank line. Maybe you need to drop some Hellbats on top of the tanks, maybe micro - yes, that would be a first for SC2 forcing the ATTACKER to micro - and move in with Marauders first. Maybe you need to gain air superiority first before attacking tanks, maybe you need to ignore the tanks and drop multiple locations ... the possibilities are much greater than "bio ball vs bio ball" ... but sadly Blizzard doesnt want the game to be flexible.
Why don't YOU adjust your tankusage? It's you who started the whining about the tank not meeting YOUR EXPECTATIONS.
Not gonna comment much more on that. If you think that marines can stim-move over siegetanks you are just lacking gameknowledge.
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
60or more flat damage would completely break TvZ and TvT, as tanks would one shot marines and kill 2times as many banelings/zerglings per shot. Of course it's easy as hell to make something viable by making it totally overpowered. However I can't believe that anybody would start playing mech in TvZ due to this. Suddenly each of your tankshots is like a 13range widow mine vs banelings. The ultimate marinespam can begin... or reach a new max.
The reality is they want widow mines to be your go to splash damage as terran, and tanks are more or less a support/defense unit. I think it works better this way in sc2. Mines need to be fairly close to their target to actually work, so it encourages more action packed games when compared to large stalemate siege tank lines. I also think it takes a little more skill to control bunches of mines than it does tanks.
I don't think that blizzard at this point really "wants" something apart from balance. They have commented more than they will try to bring variety into the game if it is easy, but they won't force things. It just turns out at this point that WMs are a more stable option in TvZ, and tanks in TvT and neither is needed in TvP.
Are you really this simple minded and dont see the evidence for what it is? There have been comments from David Kim about making sure that bio is being kept more viable than mech on purpose because they dont like mech. Havent you realized the "trend" with HotS to "more mobility" and "more harrassment" (which is the opposite to slow methodical and systematic siege play)? Havent you read the comments by the Blizzard team that they want to make the game more aggressive (which is the reason for more speed and harrassment). Put this together and you get a pretty clear picture that Blizzard devs have "a vision" and that they will stop at nothing to make it work. In case you doubt me just a quick reminder about the Spore Crawler change ...
Blizzard has turned SC2 into a "Real Time Action" game instead of a "Real Time Strategy" game and they are doing everything to keep it that way. The things they added in HotS clearly show this.
quote, quote, quote. Obviously we are reading different comments, because the ones that I know said things along the lines of: "We try to make mech viable but won't force it." Never have I read the sentence "We hate mech." But I'm sure you can find it.
1. How am I going to change tank useage and improve mech, when spreading them out is stupid because it lowers the damage from "pitiful" to "negligible" in all the areas. If you must pull such stupid comments stick to being reasonable because the stuff I suggested was reasonable ... those things arent used right now because you can just kill a mech army by a-moving into it with lots of stuff. Dropping units on top of it isnt necessary.
2. Right now I cant really find a direct quote of David Kim saying that (and he will never say "we hate mech" anyways), BUT you can pretty much deduce it from the stuff he says. Take the interview with Apollo and listen to what he says and what he likes. - action is good, we want more of it - paraphrased - "mech is kinda stale" - quote - "bio is just so exciting to watch" - quote - "do we even want mech to be as viable as bio?" - quote (*1) Add those things together with the unit design from HotS and the nonexistent attempts to fix mech (= the Siege Tank) and you get to where I am. Blizzard doesnt like mech because it is "non-action-style" and they want SC2 to be an ACTION focused game. These kind of comments were made on more than just this interview and he always says "we" ... so it is the entire dev team that shares this opinion.
I think I read a comment from him that stated they would always keep bio more (or at least equally) viable compared to mech, but I cant find that atm. The interview above is clear enough IMO.
(*1) This is a question they ask themselves, BUT the fact that they are asking it tells a whole story. All strategies should be made equally viable to have the biggest variety of playstyles to prevent the game from becoming stale.
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
Now you are ridiculous. Siege Tanks have underperformed ever since the map size got bigger than Steppes of War where the current tank values for damage were balanced on. For such tiny/small maps that might be okish, because you can have all your tanks affect the whole map basically, but what about large maps like Whirlwind? Tanks dont have the mobility - which is good - to keep up with other types of armies, but to balance the size of the map you need to spread out your forces much more to be able to defend everywhere. Terrans have no "vs ground" static defense that can be massed for base defense (the Planetary Fortress doesnt really count because it cant be built behind a mineral line for example and due to its size placement is limited).
- If you are soooo fixed on the idea that Siege Tanks are "fine" then tell me why they only one-shot three lousy Zerglings with one shot. In BW they did the same damage to Zerglings as they do now, BUT there were far fewer Zerglings rushing the tanks AND the area of the attack was larger. - People have complained about dying to Zealots in mech TvP and so the Hellbat had to be invented. Did it really? Nope, because giving the Siege Tank a reasonable damage against light instead of a negligible one is ok. - Have you forgotten about the FRIENDLY FIRE splash damage? Any buff to the Siege Tank damage will make them die more easily from friendly fire.
So I think there are quite a lot of arguments why my suggestion would not make the Siege Tank absolutely ridiculously OP.
On July 04 2013 15:19 Big J wrote:
On July 04 2013 15:06 NarutO wrote:
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
That's true. But not even broodwar featured 70flat damage such as rabiator demands. Apart from overkill (which he didn't demand), broodwar tanks did 35 vs small 52.5 vs medium 70 vs large
It's just a wrong demand, there is no need to buff tanks vs marine, hellion, zergling, baneling, hydralisk and would severly screw with the balance of biomech vs Z and biomech vs mech. The tank should get a different fix, not a plain - huge - damage buff vs everything.
The reasons why I suggested 70 flat damage are ... 1. The radius of the attack is smaller compared to BW. 2. At 70 damage they one-shot Zerglings in the primary and secondary radius. That is basically where the number comes from ...
Why is there no need to buff the tank vs all the small and light units? It is a freaking TANK and should be able to scare away a horde of smaller units to the point that they can not just a-move into a line of tanks and win. The small infantry should be required to use tricks like dropping onto the tank or abducting them or blinding cloud or whatever else.
So your suggestion is: leaving 35+15 vs armored but adding extra dmg(+35 light?)? Can a unit have that complexed stat? Edit: Tell me if i'm wrong
You are wrong ... and I thought "70 damage" was clear enough. It is a flat 70 damage ... against everything ... because splash reduces it for the outer radius a lot.
Just look at the core radius of the Siege Tank attack, which is "0.4687 matrices" ... RADIUS. It isnt explained anywhere, but from the visuals I think it is safe to assume that "1 matric = length of a building block square" and that is TINY; if my assumption is correct the core area covers only 70% of one square ...
So is the increase in damage I propose really that huge when it affects only a rather tiny amount of space at its maximum potential?
Reducing basic hellbat damage and adding infernal pre-igniter should do the job. And reducing the cargo space from 4 to 2. Then early hellbats aren't as good so it is possible to defend an early bat drop. However in the mid/late game, hellbat drop is more deadly than ever but the opponent has plenty of time to react e.g. sensor towers, observers, phoenixes, cannons, overlords, mutas, spores. Problem solved.
Blue flame upgrade makes them go from 18 damage to 18 + 12 vs light Make them non-healable by medivacs but repairable by scvs. How can hellions (mech) transform into a living construction (bio) I don't know (and I play terran).
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
Now you are ridiculous. Siege Tanks have underperformed ever since the map size got bigger than Steppes of War where the current tank values for damage were balanced on. For such tiny/small maps that might be okish, because you can have all your tanks affect the whole map basically, but what about large maps like Whirlwind? Tanks dont have the mobility - which is good - to keep up with other types of armies, but to balance the size of the map you need to spread out your forces much more to be able to defend everywhere. Terrans have no "vs ground" static defense that can be massed for base defense (the Planetary Fortress doesnt really count because it cant be built behind a mineral line for example and due to its size placement is limited).
- If you are soooo fixed on the idea that Siege Tanks are "fine" then tell me why they only one-shot three lousy Zerglings with one shot. In BW they did the same damage to Zerglings as they do now, BUT there were far fewer Zerglings rushing the tanks AND the area of the attack was larger. - People have complained about dying to Zealots in mech TvP and so the Hellbat had to be invented. Did it really? Nope, because giving the Siege Tank a reasonable damage against light instead of a negligible one is ok. - Have you forgotten about the FRIENDLY FIRE splash damage? Any buff to the Siege Tank damage will make them die more easily from friendly fire.
So I think there are quite a lot of arguments why my suggestion would not make the Siege Tank absolutely ridiculously OP.
On July 04 2013 15:19 Big J wrote:
On July 04 2013 15:06 NarutO wrote:
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
That's true. But not even broodwar featured 70flat damage such as rabiator demands. Apart from overkill (which he didn't demand), broodwar tanks did 35 vs small 52.5 vs medium 70 vs large
It's just a wrong demand, there is no need to buff tanks vs marine, hellion, zergling, baneling, hydralisk and would severly screw with the balance of biomech vs Z and biomech vs mech. The tank should get a different fix, not a plain - huge - damage buff vs everything.
The reasons why I suggested 70 flat damage are ... 1. The radius of the attack is smaller compared to BW. 2. At 70 damage they one-shot Zerglings in the primary and secondary radius. That is basically where the number comes from ...
Why is there no need to buff the tank vs all the small and light units? It is a freaking TANK and should be able to scare away a horde of smaller units to the point that they can not just a-move into a line of tanks and win. The small infantry should be required to use tricks like dropping onto the tank or abducting them or blinding cloud or whatever else.
So your suggestion is: leaving 35+15 vs armored but adding extra dmg(+35 light?)? Can a unit have that complexed stat? Edit: Tell me if i'm wrong
You are wrong ... and I thought "70 damage" was clear enough. It is a flat 70 damage ... against everything ... because splash reduces it for the outer radius a lot.
Just look at the core radius of the Siege Tank attack, which is "0.4687 matrices" ... RADIUS. It isnt explained anywhere, but from the visuals I think it is safe to assume that "1 matric = length of a building block square" and that is TINY; if my assumption is correct the core area covers only 70% of one square ...
So is the increase in damage I propose really that huge when it affects only a rather tiny amount of space at its maximum potential?
"In siege mode, Siege Tanks do 35 (+15 against armored) splash damage. This damage has three different levels: units (whether hostile or friendly) within .4687 matrices of the target are dealt full damage, units between .4687 and .7812 matrices of the target receive 50% of full damage, and units between .7812 and 1.25 matrices from the target suffer just 25% of the full damage."
So...If seize tanks do 70 dmg... the 'tiny' space makes 70dmg (a little bit bigger than a zergling), b/w .4687 and .7812, 35dmg (about 5-6 zerglings) and b/w .7812 and 1.25, 17.5dmg for MANY zerglings? I hope terran won't mass tanks but I think eveyone will go for it!
On July 04 2013 20:09 EZR-Aeron wrote: Blue flame upgrade makes them go from 18 damage to 18 + 12 vs light Make them non-healable by medivacs but repairable by scvs. How can hellions (mech) transform into a living construction (bio) I don't know (and I play terran).
I'm happy that more people are suggesting siege tank buffs. roll back patch 1.1.0 for 50 flat siege mode damage (maybe a bonus vs shields) and remove hellbats from the game.
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
60or more flat damage would completely break TvZ and TvT, as tanks would one shot marines and kill 2times as many banelings/zerglings per shot. Of course it's easy as hell to make something viable by making it totally overpowered. However I can't believe that anybody would start playing mech in TvZ due to this. Suddenly each of your tankshots is like a 13range widow mine vs banelings. The ultimate marinespam can begin... or reach a new max.
Oh sure ... one-shotting 3 Marines will totally break TvT. Maybe the bio player will need to adjust his use of the Marines OR maybe lead on with a few Marauders to take the shots?
Honestly such "it will totally break X or Y" or "it wont work" posts are just as bad as anything Blizzard comes up with. The whole problem is YOUR EXPECTATION of the matchup. You simply got used to the way in which Blizzard designed the game - i.e. stim and a-move -, but that doesnt mean it is "the truth" or "the only way to balance".
Since the bio player can more easily rebuild his Marines it should be ok that the Siege Tanks "annihilate" (speak: are pretty strong against) Marines. You arent supposed to win by a-moving squishy units into a sieged up tank line. Maybe you need to drop some Hellbats on top of the tanks, maybe micro - yes, that would be a first for SC2 forcing the ATTACKER to micro - and move in with Marauders first. Maybe you need to gain air superiority first before attacking tanks, maybe you need to ignore the tanks and drop multiple locations ... the possibilities are much greater than "bio ball vs bio ball" ... but sadly Blizzard doesnt want the game to be flexible.
Why don't YOU adjust your tankusage? It's you who started the whining about the tank not meeting YOUR EXPECTATIONS.
Not gonna comment much more on that. If you think that marines can stim-move over siegetanks you are just lacking gameknowledge.
On July 04 2013 13:28 Rabiator wrote:
On July 04 2013 03:17 Big J wrote:
On July 04 2013 03:02 AnomalySC2 wrote:
On July 04 2013 01:30 Big J wrote:
On July 03 2013 22:38 Rabiator wrote:
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
60or more flat damage would completely break TvZ and TvT, as tanks would one shot marines and kill 2times as many banelings/zerglings per shot. Of course it's easy as hell to make something viable by making it totally overpowered. However I can't believe that anybody would start playing mech in TvZ due to this. Suddenly each of your tankshots is like a 13range widow mine vs banelings. The ultimate marinespam can begin... or reach a new max.
The reality is they want widow mines to be your go to splash damage as terran, and tanks are more or less a support/defense unit. I think it works better this way in sc2. Mines need to be fairly close to their target to actually work, so it encourages more action packed games when compared to large stalemate siege tank lines. I also think it takes a little more skill to control bunches of mines than it does tanks.
I don't think that blizzard at this point really "wants" something apart from balance. They have commented more than they will try to bring variety into the game if it is easy, but they won't force things. It just turns out at this point that WMs are a more stable option in TvZ, and tanks in TvT and neither is needed in TvP.
Are you really this simple minded and dont see the evidence for what it is? There have been comments from David Kim about making sure that bio is being kept more viable than mech on purpose because they dont like mech. Havent you realized the "trend" with HotS to "more mobility" and "more harrassment" (which is the opposite to slow methodical and systematic siege play)? Havent you read the comments by the Blizzard team that they want to make the game more aggressive (which is the reason for more speed and harrassment). Put this together and you get a pretty clear picture that Blizzard devs have "a vision" and that they will stop at nothing to make it work. In case you doubt me just a quick reminder about the Spore Crawler change ...
Blizzard has turned SC2 into a "Real Time Action" game instead of a "Real Time Strategy" game and they are doing everything to keep it that way. The things they added in HotS clearly show this.
quote, quote, quote. Obviously we are reading different comments, because the ones that I know said things along the lines of: "We try to make mech viable but won't force it." Never have I read the sentence "We hate mech." But I'm sure you can find it.
1. How am I going to change tank useage and improve mech, when spreading them out is stupid because it lowers the damage from "pitiful" to "negligible" in all the areas. If you must pull such stupid comments stick to being reasonable because the stuff I suggested was reasonable ... those things arent used right now because you can just kill a mech army by a-moving into it with lots of stuff. Dropping units on top of it isnt necessary.
2. Right now I cant really find a direct quote of David Kim saying that (and he will never say "we hate mech" anyways), BUT you can pretty much deduce it from the stuff he says. Take the interview with Apollo and listen to what he says and what he likes. - action is good, we want more of it - paraphrased - "mech is kinda stale" - quote - "bio is just so exciting to watch" - quote - "do we even want mech to be as viable as bio?" - quote (*1) Add those things together with the unit design from HotS and the nonexistent attempts to fix mech (= the Siege Tank) and you get to where I am. Blizzard doesnt like mech because it is "non-action-style" and they want SC2 to be an ACTION focused game. These kind of comments were made on more than just this interview and he always says "we" ... so it is the entire dev team that shares this opinion.
I think I read a comment from him that stated they would always keep bio more (or at least equally) viable compared to mech, but I cant find that atm. The interview above is clear enough IMO.
(*1) This is a question they ask themselves, BUT the fact that they are asking it tells a whole story. All strategies should be made equally viable to have the biggest variety of playstyles to prevent the game from becoming stale.
1. You simply can't a-move over siege tanks when they are properly positioned in TvT. If you deny that then it is simply no use to talk with you about the siege tank. mid/lategame TvT is hugely about tanks, no matter if you play biomech or mech. 2. That doesn't mean that they don't want mech to work. It means that they don't know how to fix it - at least not in an interesting and balanced way. Blizzard has no problem with Mech. But they won't be "fixing" something unless it is needed. And the siege tank is such a thing that is not needed.
And just to be clear. I think they SHOULD focus on diversifying playstyles and fixing the tank is a huge part of that. Still your suggestion is horrible, as it destroys other playstyles in TvT and may not even fix mech, but most likely just overpower midgame TvZ biomech.
Thinking about Flash v Innovation, where one of them chose to build turrets and the other did not, I wonder if the solution to helping TvT without changing the other MU's might be in the turret. After the infamous spore buff, we could consider buffing turret damage to mechanical by +3 (total DPS v mechanical would be 30, as opposed to 24 due to 2x).
This means that boosting into mineral lines becomes much more risky if there are well placed turrets.
This would only have an effect on the medivac (desirable, will go down in 5 shots, instead of 7), BC (inconsequential, turrets still not a good response with 19 shots, instead of 23), vikings (have no business flying around turrets), void ray (9 shots instead of 11, potentially weakening the void ray all-in, but that's probably not a bad thing. It's very rare already and P has quite a few all-ins anyway) and the warp prism (dies to 7 shots instead of 9). I would be ok with warp prisms dying to turrets in 2 more shots because you really have no need to fly into turrets, you can warp in at a distance (which is standard now). If you really dislike this, you can buff the turret against armored units, but that excludes warp prism but brings in corruptors (also not a bad thing, corruptors have no business flying into turrets), but also overlord and overseers, weakening Z scouting and drop play. Armored buff keeps all the other units.
Whether you buff turret damage against mech or armor, Carriers would also be included. But since we haven't seen carriers in years, it's not that important.
Do try to tear this proposal apart, I'm more inclined to weather the hellbat storm than to make a volatile change.
On July 04 2013 20:49 Ghanburighan wrote: Thinking about Flash v Innovation, where one of them chose to build turrets and the other did not, I wonder if the solution to helping TvT without changing the other MU's might be in the turret. After the infamous spore buff, we could consider buffing turret damage to mechanical by +3 (total DPS v mechanical would be 30, as opposed to 24 due to 2x).
This means that boosting into mineral lines becomes much more risky if there are well placed turrets.
This would only have an effect on the medivac (desirable, will go down in 5 shots, instead of 7), BC (inconsequential, turrets still not a good response with 19 shots, instead of 23), vikings (have no business flying around turrets), void ray (9 shots instead of 11, potentially weakening the void ray all-in, but that's probably not a bad thing. It's very rare already and P has quite a few all-ins anyway) and the warp prism (dies to 7 shots instead of 9). I would be ok with warp prisms dying to turrets in 2 more shots because you really have no need to fly into turrets, you can warp in at a distance (which is standard now). If you really dislike this, you can buff the turret against armored units, but that excludes warp prism but brings in corruptors (also not a bad thing, corruptors have no business flying into turrets), but also overlord and overseers, weakening Z scouting and drop play. Armored buff keeps all the other units.
Whether you buff turret damage against mech or armor, Carriers would also be included. But since we haven't seen carriers in years, it's not that important.
Do try to tear this proposal apart, I'm more inclined to weather the hellbat storm than to make a volatile change.
Wow! It's actually good (since spore now has +bio)! +Armored is just way too much though (my overbros will die too quick!). But the thing is that it still does not stop hellbat drop being cost effective in 8min mark. At 8 min, it is hard to make enough turret to protect speedvac to drop and go, leaving the hellbats to do their job.
EDIT: your spoiler actually made me very sad... I WANT MOR CARRIERS!!!!
On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote: I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad. The above changes will obsolete the hellbat in TvZ and TvP, returning marauders to the frontline. The only Terran unit for splash remaining is: 1. siege tank 2. widow mine 3. hellion. 4. raven
Widow mines can be faked out with hallucinated units, meaning... widow mine lines are useless against death ball clashes as well as friendly fire. They have proven to actually help the mass chargelot remax opponent as widow mines will hit their own from targeting the zealots.
Siege tanks aren't so hot since the last nerfs, don't get me started about lategame hellion run-bys.
It is bad and can u explain why? this does not have any relation to splash. The problem in TvT is it is too easy/fast to drop in 7mins time (well this is true for all match ups) and defenses cannot be set up in time or it is not effiecient. Waste a bunker and marines in each mineral line? a turret? no problem just suicide the medivac, 200 minerals is nothing to a muling terran.
I can comment on your widow mine issue but it has nothing to do about the hellbat suggestions. you can still have them do splash damage vs protoss, vs voids by proper deployment in mass. I could put a vod link but I would leave that for you to look since it seems you dont know what you are talking about. And wtf? siege tank nerfs? late game hellion runbys WUT?
I you think you have some better ideas, try to post it. Your explanation about splash again has nothing to do with the ideas above, you should feel bad for that
Simple. Mech has low unit count, each unit must count in order to survive mid-game attacks. Which was why BW had firebats AND spider mines both available immediately without teching up.
WoL Terran had no choice but to go mass marine/hellion and micro heavily (lining up the flames while kiting marines back) just to trade equally against ling/roach, zealot/archon, when they can just a-move. Hardly fair. With the introduction of hellbats, both players can theoretically come out equal if microed equally. E.g. A-moved hellbat/marine trades well with a-moved mass ling/roach and mass zealot/archon.
I like how you shoot yourself in the foot by first saying how easy it is to drop in 7min but its impossible to defend against them even though both have access to the same tech tree, income levels and abilities...
Since you've not been reading my past posts. Let me repeat. The cost of two turrets and a WM w/ ebay (400m 25g) is CHEAPER than MEDIVAC & TWO HELLBATS w/ Armory (450m 200g).
Every second the opponent spends dodging turrets is doing indirect damage, same as sniping a queen. Stop them before they land, force them to drop further from your mineral line and closer to your ramp with your army.
How in the world could you compare hellbats to spidermines? Can you speedivac firebats in steroids with cone splash + healing in BW? Your BW reference failed hard like your explanation. Mech has low unit count because it is tank(3 psi) heavy. In BW it is not that low count cause you have goliaths(2 psi) in SC2 it is because of thors do the math. You dont justify hellbat because of mech, hellbat is being utilized in bio and mech and does not have any relation to what we are discussing.
So you want the game to be A-modable? you want all races to mass up and A-mode? you are playing the wrong game, play some command and conquer red alert if u want to mass up and A mode. And PS roach ling will loose to marine/hellion anytime.
Okay, the 7 minute drop is easy to defend? wow you are too good then, you can tell that to MVP and Innovation doing hellbat drops with each other. And let me remind you that 2 turrets do not move compared to 2 hellbats. Wasting 200 minerals to non moving units in each base is a good idea eh? Even vikings just watch till the speedivac drops hell on workers and even the damn army.
On July 04 2013 22:29 monkybone wrote: The solution to making mech work in tvp is to add and upgrade that gives bonus damage to shields for the tank in siege mode. Just like for the widow mine.
But you know that +dmg to shield was VERY weird and sily I actually wanted to change that into +light but that gave me tons of problems... mech is hard to touch now. (maybe we should wait till Lov comes out )
On July 03 2013 09:05 IamHobbyless wrote: Remove the Bio tag and i am happy
I would love this, because then they'd actually be useful for mech late game again since mass immortals destroys Hellbats so hard.
It's why I prefer to use blue flame hellions instead late game as all the archons just eat through them otherwise.
While it would help, it would be a fucking drop in the ocean of making mech TvP decent. Just remove the fucking unit and do what actually needs to be done - bringing the tank back. Because the shitbag we have right is not how I remember a tank.
On July 03 2013 09:05 IamHobbyless wrote: Remove the Bio tag and i am happy
I would love this, because then they'd actually be useful for mech late game again since mass immortals destroys Hellbats so hard.
It's why I prefer to use blue flame hellions instead late game as all the archons just eat through them otherwise.
While it would help, it would be a fucking drop in the ocean of making mech TvP decent. Just remove the fucking unit and do what actually needs to be done - bringing the tank back. Because the shitbag we have right is not how I remember a tank.
Yep. BW tank was a nightmare...
tank should be on the next balance testing as soon as hellbat fix is done.
On July 04 2013 22:29 monkybone wrote: The solution to making mech work in tvp is to add and upgrade that gives bonus damage to shields for the tank in siege mode. Just like for the widow mine.
But you know that +dmg to shield was VERY weird and sily I actually wanted to change that into +light but that gave me tons of problems... mech is hard to touch now. (maybe we should wait till Lov comes out )
i don't think waiting will fix our problems.. in WOL we were saying the same think (maybe we should wait till hots comes out).. blizzard should address the balance/design issues now before it's too late.
On July 04 2013 22:29 monkybone wrote: The solution to making mech work in tvp is to add and upgrade that gives bonus damage to shields for the tank in siege mode. Just like for the widow mine.
But you know that +dmg to shield was VERY weird and sily I actually wanted to change that into +light but that gave me tons of problems... mech is hard to touch now. (maybe we should wait till Lov comes out )
i don't think waiting will fix our problems.. in WOL we were saying the same think (maybe we should wait till hots comes out).. blizzard should address the balance/design issues now before it's too late.
I know... but THEY NEVER DO! THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Even back in BW, they were still fixing bugs and balances for almost 10 yrs...
I don't know. blizzard don't listen to us no matter what we do in here, in battlenet, or in other big sc2 communities. I hope one day they join our discussions and listen to us.
On July 04 2013 20:49 Ghanburighan wrote: Thinking about Flash v Innovation, where one of them chose to build turrets and the other did not, I wonder if the solution to helping TvT without changing the other MU's might be in the turret. After the infamous spore buff, we could consider buffing turret damage to mechanical by +3 (total DPS v mechanical would be 30, as opposed to 24 due to 2x).
This means that boosting into mineral lines becomes much more risky if there are well placed turrets.
This would only have an effect on the medivac (desirable, will go down in 5 shots, instead of 7), BC (inconsequential, turrets still not a good response with 19 shots, instead of 23), vikings (have no business flying around turrets), void ray (9 shots instead of 11, potentially weakening the void ray all-in, but that's probably not a bad thing. It's very rare already and P has quite a few all-ins anyway) and the warp prism (dies to 7 shots instead of 9). I would be ok with warp prisms dying to turrets in 2 more shots because you really have no need to fly into turrets, you can warp in at a distance (which is standard now). If you really dislike this, you can buff the turret against armored units, but that excludes warp prism but brings in corruptors (also not a bad thing, corruptors have no business flying into turrets), but also overlord and overseers, weakening Z scouting and drop play. Armored buff keeps all the other units.
Whether you buff turret damage against mech or armor, Carriers would also be included. But since we haven't seen carriers in years, it's not that important.
Do try to tear this proposal apart, I'm more inclined to weather the hellbat storm than to make a volatile change.
Wouldn't that weaken bio even more vs Mech? damage buff + hi-sec auto tracking + vikings(maybe) = good luck trying to drop a mech player.
On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote: I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
I would go for this , minor needs in effectiveness and timing for a while ....
I agree with no2 (which is what blizzard wants) but 1 and 3 sounds weird. I actually want hellbat gets +1 armor (not sure light unit can have armor) or some health boost and make it pure mech, but I hardly think blizzard will remove bio tag ever. If they do, many won't QQ though.
And require 2 upgrade? its gonna be like terran hydra! I rather remove the whole transformation upgrade that hellions comes with transformation when armory finish
Why would number 3 be weird? the problem is hellbat and drops. upgrade before drops can still be worth it but terran needs to invest more or make it just delayed not coming in 7:30 mins and killing all workers.
I also have another thing come up to mind, make hellbats armored, and remove healing option but this sounds drastic. Just makes sense since they took parts of themselves and turned arms into shields, made their HP total to 135, it is big and slow so should be armored (looks like a marauder/firebat).
No you dont need to have 2 upgrades to be implemented, as I said they can choose one of those, pre ignigter or transform. Each one of the options would make it more pleasant than the current state as it would delay the 7:30 drop. 1st option would make the early drop 3 shot workers, the later drop would be the same potency as the current state.
First, the first option is about reducing durability of hellbat (not making early drop 3 shot. maybe you have mixed up numbers? ). But there is no units that heals only half or quarter since starcraft I alpha. Hellbat is already illogical by being a FACTORY unit that can be both mech and bio and this is even more non sense. And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
Secondly, no 2 is what actually blizzard suggested and not good because it affects other match ups that are not TvT (please read previous posts). That's why I wanted hellbat dmg to be less nerfed.
Thirdly, if you have to get current hellbat after factory-> armory-> techlab on the factory, then research, would you use it? This will nerf not only hellbat drop but also hellbat itself too much in ALL match ups.
Also, making armored (I thought I posted only few posts ago???) will make hellbat blowed by other +armor attackers, which will also affect not only drops but hellbat in general. Hellbat is the meatshield for mech because other mechs are armored but hellbat is not armored.
Hope I have explained well. XP Please read whole posts (I actually did!) because I don't want people just jump in and saying something that what already has been discussed.
Edit: when I say 'affects', it means it affects TOO MUCH.
Sorry I dont have the luxury of time reading the whole 40 pages of discussions.
but number 1 would not reduce its durability because it has still 135 hp. It would only slow the rate of heal in which they are practically immoral against zerg units if you have high medivac count. And yes this is a game mechanic, does not matter if it is not in SC2 alpha? why? because it is an update. Change is constant and we are now in HOTs, maybe in LoV we could have real firebats and actual medics back, who knows? Maybe warhounds will do a comeback. You cant justify starcraft for being realistic? This is a fiction game. Where can u find dudes making blades from thoughts? Does not matter if it makes more sense if they are bio/mech coming from a factory, maybe when he transforms he exposes his ass and makes him bio, we dont know he just does it.
The damage in number 2 is solely for the 2 hit worker kill which makes it 1 hit since you have 2 hellbats in a drop. This affects all match ups as worker HPs are 40, 40, 45. Has nothing to do with TvT or any other specific matchups.
The only thing it would make is delay the 7:30 minute drop that is too fast to do. maybe it would make it 8:30 this time, gives any race ample time to defend and not make them too far behind for defending.
The armored suggestion can work but it would need careful reviews has to add +1 armor to it or just leave it 0 default armor. Yeah meatshields tend to be armored right? and not light? if it makes sense to you that they have armored shields in their arms, suddenly have 35 more HP and slowed movement speed then yes armored makes most sense.
I read the whole OP post but again with the 40 pages of whine and for the interest of my time, i cant read 40 pages. I would just provide what I think are appropriate and I think the more similar the suggestion the more people seems to agree.
I am just facinated with people trying to separate mech and bio for terran wanting for them to work separately like they are terran A and terran B playstyle which is just dumb. Why would you want to do that? Bio has it's advantages and mech has too. They also need to have disadvantages at some point or else how can you beat them. Don't start complaining about this needs to be viable pure mech whine since when did protoss just made all gateway units until late game? or zerg just made all melee or all range lategame? well hydra roach I guess but hell you need to mix it up or just make it work not complain the hell to make it work.
And dont start with comparing BW with SC2, BW is a totally different game with it's ancient AI and pathing.
On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote: I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
I would go for this , minor needs in effectiveness and timing for a while ....
I agree with no2 (which is what blizzard wants) but 1 and 3 sounds weird. I actually want hellbat gets +1 armor (not sure light unit can have armor) or some health boost and make it pure mech, but I hardly think blizzard will remove bio tag ever. If they do, many won't QQ though.
And require 2 upgrade? its gonna be like terran hydra! I rather remove the whole transformation upgrade that hellions comes with transformation when armory finish
Why would number 3 be weird? the problem is hellbat and drops. upgrade before drops can still be worth it but terran needs to invest more or make it just delayed not coming in 7:30 mins and killing all workers.
I also have another thing come up to mind, make hellbats armored, and remove healing option but this sounds drastic. Just makes sense since they took parts of themselves and turned arms into shields, made their HP total to 135, it is big and slow so should be armored (looks like a marauder/firebat).
No you dont need to have 2 upgrades to be implemented, as I said they can choose one of those, pre ignigter or transform. Each one of the options would make it more pleasant than the current state as it would delay the 7:30 drop. 1st option would make the early drop 3 shot workers, the later drop would be the same potency as the current state.
First, the first option is about reducing durability of hellbat (not making early drop 3 shot. maybe you have mixed up numbers? ). But there is no units that heals only half or quarter since starcraft I alpha. Hellbat is already illogical by being a FACTORY unit that can be both mech and bio and this is even more non sense. And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
Secondly, no 2 is what actually blizzard suggested and not good because it affects other match ups that are not TvT (please read previous posts). That's why I wanted hellbat dmg to be less nerfed.
Thirdly, if you have to get current hellbat after factory-> armory-> techlab on the factory, then research, would you use it? This will nerf not only hellbat drop but also hellbat itself too much in ALL match ups.
Also, making armored (I thought I posted only few posts ago???) will make hellbat blowed by other +armor attackers, which will also affect not only drops but hellbat in general. Hellbat is the meatshield for mech because other mechs are armored but hellbat is not armored.
Hope I have explained well. XP Please read whole posts (I actually did!) because I don't want people just jump in and saying something that what already has been discussed.
Edit: when I say 'affects', it means it affects TOO MUCH.
Sorry I dont have the luxury of time reading the whole 40 pages of discussions.
but number 1 would not reduce its durability because it has still 135 hp. It would only slow the rate of heal in which they are practically immoral against zerg units if you have high medivac count. And yes this is a game mechanic, does not matter if it is not in SC2 alpha? why? because it is an update. Change is constant and we are now in HOTs, maybe in LoV we could have real firebats and actual medics back, who knows? Maybe warhounds will do a comeback. You cant justify starcraft for being realistic? This is a fiction game. Where can u find dudes making blades from thoughts? Does not matter if it makes more sense if they are bio/mech coming from a factory, maybe when he transforms he exposes his ass and makes him bio, we dont know he just does it.
The damage in number 2 is solely for the 2 hit worker kill which makes it 1 hit since you have 2 hellbats in a drop. This affects all match ups as worker HPs are 40, 40, 45. Has nothing to do with TvT or any other specific matchups.
The only thing it would make is delay the 7:30 minute drop that is too fast to do. maybe it would make it 8:30 this time, gives any race ample time to defend and not make them too far behind for defending.
The armored suggestion can work but it would need careful reviews has to add +1 armor to it or just leave it 0 default armor. Yeah meatshields tend to be armored right? and not light? if it makes sense to you that they have armored shields in their arms, suddenly have 35 more HP and slowed movement speed then yes armored makes most sense.
I read the whole OP post but again with the 40 pages of whine and for the interest of my time, i cant read 40 pages. I would just provide what I think are appropriate and I think the more similar the suggestion the more people seems to agree.
facepalmd...
no1- Its from SC I alpha. you didn't read a single post carefully did you?
I said: And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
no2- ONLY TvT suffers from early drops. Thats why I said hellbat should have 18+4 when they come out (so that they will 3 shots SCV but 2 shots drones and probes)
We don't want hellbat drops to be totally disappear. We just want hellbat drops less effective and less be seen.
no3- being light will make it NOT countered by + armor types which counter other mechs like tanks and thors.
And you said in no1 it doesn't matter the hellbat to be real life logical but you want to include real life logic to make 'sense'??? in no3?
On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote: I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
I would go for this , minor needs in effectiveness and timing for a while ....
I agree with no2 (which is what blizzard wants) but 1 and 3 sounds weird. I actually want hellbat gets +1 armor (not sure light unit can have armor) or some health boost and make it pure mech, but I hardly think blizzard will remove bio tag ever. If they do, many won't QQ though.
And require 2 upgrade? its gonna be like terran hydra! I rather remove the whole transformation upgrade that hellions comes with transformation when armory finish
Why would number 3 be weird? the problem is hellbat and drops. upgrade before drops can still be worth it but terran needs to invest more or make it just delayed not coming in 7:30 mins and killing all workers.
I also have another thing come up to mind, make hellbats armored, and remove healing option but this sounds drastic. Just makes sense since they took parts of themselves and turned arms into shields, made their HP total to 135, it is big and slow so should be armored (looks like a marauder/firebat).
No you dont need to have 2 upgrades to be implemented, as I said they can choose one of those, pre ignigter or transform. Each one of the options would make it more pleasant than the current state as it would delay the 7:30 drop. 1st option would make the early drop 3 shot workers, the later drop would be the same potency as the current state.
First, the first option is about reducing durability of hellbat (not making early drop 3 shot. maybe you have mixed up numbers? ). But there is no units that heals only half or quarter since starcraft I alpha. Hellbat is already illogical by being a FACTORY unit that can be both mech and bio and this is even more non sense. And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
Secondly, no 2 is what actually blizzard suggested and not good because it affects other match ups that are not TvT (please read previous posts). That's why I wanted hellbat dmg to be less nerfed.
Thirdly, if you have to get current hellbat after factory-> armory-> techlab on the factory, then research, would you use it? This will nerf not only hellbat drop but also hellbat itself too much in ALL match ups.
Also, making armored (I thought I posted only few posts ago???) will make hellbat blowed by other +armor attackers, which will also affect not only drops but hellbat in general. Hellbat is the meatshield for mech because other mechs are armored but hellbat is not armored.
Hope I have explained well. XP Please read whole posts (I actually did!) because I don't want people just jump in and saying something that what already has been discussed.
Edit: when I say 'affects', it means it affects TOO MUCH.
Sorry I dont have the luxury of time reading the whole 40 pages of discussions.
but number 1 would not reduce its durability because it has still 135 hp. It would only slow the rate of heal in which they are practically immoral against zerg units if you have high medivac count. And yes this is a game mechanic, does not matter if it is not in SC2 alpha? why? because it is an update. Change is constant and we are now in HOTs, maybe in LoV we could have real firebats and actual medics back, who knows? Maybe warhounds will do a comeback. You cant justify starcraft for being realistic? This is a fiction game. Where can u find dudes making blades from thoughts? Does not matter if it makes more sense if they are bio/mech coming from a factory, maybe when he transforms he exposes his ass and makes him bio, we dont know he just does it.
The damage in number 2 is solely for the 2 hit worker kill which makes it 1 hit since you have 2 hellbats in a drop. This affects all match ups as worker HPs are 40, 40, 45. Has nothing to do with TvT or any other specific matchups.
The only thing it would make is delay the 7:30 minute drop that is too fast to do. maybe it would make it 8:30 this time, gives any race ample time to defend and not make them too far behind for defending.
The armored suggestion can work but it would need careful reviews has to add +1 armor to it or just leave it 0 default armor. Yeah meatshields tend to be armored right? and not light? if it makes sense to you that they have armored shields in their arms, suddenly have 35 more HP and slowed movement speed then yes armored makes most sense.
I read the whole OP post but again with the 40 pages of whine and for the interest of my time, i cant read 40 pages. I would just provide what I think are appropriate and I think the more similar the suggestion the more people seems to agree.
facepalmd...
no1- Its from SC I alpha. you didn't read a single post carefully did you?
I said: And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
no2- ONLY TvT suffers from early drops. Thats why I said hellbat should have 18+4 when they come out (so that they will 3 shots SCV but 2 shots drones and probes)
We don't want hellbat drops to be totally disappear. We just want hellbat drops less effective and less be seen.
no3- being light will make it NOT countered by + armor types which counter other mechs like tanks and thors.
And you said in no1 it doesn't matter the hellbat to be real life logical but you want to include real life logic to make 'sense'??? in no3?
Edit:Man, if you are trolling, you really got me.
why do you keep comparing SC2 alpha, BW and SC2 whatever version with HOTs? That is why we are now in HOTs, please move on.
point 1 does not have to do with drops, it has to do with A moving all around meatshield problem. for drops we have option no. 2 and 3.
Yes, again, option 2 and 3 will make it less effective or come later. Please read carefully.
no4 (armour type) you mean? not no.3 (transform option). As I said, it will need careful considerations but still thats why you build banshees for this not mass hellbats.
Do you even mech? Mech is not attack move, it is tank positioning and having advantages with possition and when sieged up. You cant just a-move with hellbats tank and thors, nope just cant work...
On July 04 2013 20:49 Ghanburighan wrote: Thinking about Flash v Innovation, where one of them chose to build turrets and the other did not, I wonder if the solution to helping TvT without changing the other MU's might be in the turret. After the infamous spore buff, we could consider buffing turret damage to mechanical by +3 (total DPS v mechanical would be 30, as opposed to 24 due to 2x).
This means that boosting into mineral lines becomes much more risky if there are well placed turrets.
This would only have an effect on the medivac (desirable, will go down in 5 shots, instead of 7), BC (inconsequential, turrets still not a good response with 19 shots, instead of 23), vikings (have no business flying around turrets), void ray (9 shots instead of 11, potentially weakening the void ray all-in, but that's probably not a bad thing. It's very rare already and P has quite a few all-ins anyway) and the warp prism (dies to 7 shots instead of 9). I would be ok with warp prisms dying to turrets in 2 more shots because you really have no need to fly into turrets, you can warp in at a distance (which is standard now). If you really dislike this, you can buff the turret against armored units, but that excludes warp prism but brings in corruptors (also not a bad thing, corruptors have no business flying into turrets), but also overlord and overseers, weakening Z scouting and drop play. Armored buff keeps all the other units.
Whether you buff turret damage against mech or armor, Carriers would also be included. But since we haven't seen carriers in years, it's not that important.
Do try to tear this proposal apart, I'm more inclined to weather the hellbat storm than to make a volatile change.
Wouldn't that weaken bio even more vs Mech? damage buff + hi-sec auto tracking + vikings(maybe) = good luck trying to drop a mech player.
Yes and no. Yes, it makes it much more difficult to drop a meching player, but the drops are not as localized. So, finding a place where to off-load 4 medivacs full of marauders is not as difficult as for the meching player to find a mineral line to drop. Everyone agrees that bio is very weak at the moment, and this will overall strengthen bio because the meching players cannot hellbat drop you to death.
On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote: I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
I would go for this , minor needs in effectiveness and timing for a while ....
I agree with no2 (which is what blizzard wants) but 1 and 3 sounds weird. I actually want hellbat gets +1 armor (not sure light unit can have armor) or some health boost and make it pure mech, but I hardly think blizzard will remove bio tag ever. If they do, many won't QQ though.
And require 2 upgrade? its gonna be like terran hydra! I rather remove the whole transformation upgrade that hellions comes with transformation when armory finish
Why would number 3 be weird? the problem is hellbat and drops. upgrade before drops can still be worth it but terran needs to invest more or make it just delayed not coming in 7:30 mins and killing all workers.
I also have another thing come up to mind, make hellbats armored, and remove healing option but this sounds drastic. Just makes sense since they took parts of themselves and turned arms into shields, made their HP total to 135, it is big and slow so should be armored (looks like a marauder/firebat).
No you dont need to have 2 upgrades to be implemented, as I said they can choose one of those, pre ignigter or transform. Each one of the options would make it more pleasant than the current state as it would delay the 7:30 drop. 1st option would make the early drop 3 shot workers, the later drop would be the same potency as the current state.
First, the first option is about reducing durability of hellbat (not making early drop 3 shot. maybe you have mixed up numbers? ). But there is no units that heals only half or quarter since starcraft I alpha. Hellbat is already illogical by being a FACTORY unit that can be both mech and bio and this is even more non sense. And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
Secondly, no 2 is what actually blizzard suggested and not good because it affects other match ups that are not TvT (please read previous posts). That's why I wanted hellbat dmg to be less nerfed.
Thirdly, if you have to get current hellbat after factory-> armory-> techlab on the factory, then research, would you use it? This will nerf not only hellbat drop but also hellbat itself too much in ALL match ups.
Also, making armored (I thought I posted only few posts ago???) will make hellbat blowed by other +armor attackers, which will also affect not only drops but hellbat in general. Hellbat is the meatshield for mech because other mechs are armored but hellbat is not armored.
Hope I have explained well. XP Please read whole posts (I actually did!) because I don't want people just jump in and saying something that what already has been discussed.
Edit: when I say 'affects', it means it affects TOO MUCH.
Sorry I dont have the luxury of time reading the whole 40 pages of discussions.
but number 1 would not reduce its durability because it has still 135 hp. It would only slow the rate of heal in which they are practically immoral against zerg units if you have high medivac count. And yes this is a game mechanic, does not matter if it is not in SC2 alpha? why? because it is an update. Change is constant and we are now in HOTs, maybe in LoV we could have real firebats and actual medics back, who knows? Maybe warhounds will do a comeback. You cant justify starcraft for being realistic? This is a fiction game. Where can u find dudes making blades from thoughts? Does not matter if it makes more sense if they are bio/mech coming from a factory, maybe when he transforms he exposes his ass and makes him bio, we dont know he just does it.
The damage in number 2 is solely for the 2 hit worker kill which makes it 1 hit since you have 2 hellbats in a drop. This affects all match ups as worker HPs are 40, 40, 45. Has nothing to do with TvT or any other specific matchups.
The only thing it would make is delay the 7:30 minute drop that is too fast to do. maybe it would make it 8:30 this time, gives any race ample time to defend and not make them too far behind for defending.
The armored suggestion can work but it would need careful reviews has to add +1 armor to it or just leave it 0 default armor. Yeah meatshields tend to be armored right? and not light? if it makes sense to you that they have armored shields in their arms, suddenly have 35 more HP and slowed movement speed then yes armored makes most sense.
I read the whole OP post but again with the 40 pages of whine and for the interest of my time, i cant read 40 pages. I would just provide what I think are appropriate and I think the more similar the suggestion the more people seems to agree.
facepalmd...
no1- Its from SC I alpha. you didn't read a single post carefully did you?
I said: And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
no2- ONLY TvT suffers from early drops. Thats why I said hellbat should have 18+4 when they come out (so that they will 3 shots SCV but 2 shots drones and probes)
We don't want hellbat drops to be totally disappear. We just want hellbat drops less effective and less be seen.
no3- being light will make it NOT countered by + armor types which counter other mechs like tanks and thors.
And you said in no1 it doesn't matter the hellbat to be real life logical but you want to include real life logic to make 'sense'??? in no3?
Edit:Man, if you are trolling, you really got me.
why do you keep comparing SC2 alpha, BW and SC2 whatever version with HOTs? That is why we are now in HOTs, please move on.
point 1 does not have to do with drops, it has to do with A moving all around meatshield problem. for drops we have option no. 2 and 3.
Yes, again, option 2 and 3 will make it less effective or come later. Please read carefully.
no4 (armour type) you mean? not no.3 (transform option). As I said, it will need careful considerations but still thats why you build banshees for this not mass hellbats.
On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote: I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
I would go for this , minor needs in effectiveness and timing for a while ....
I agree with no2 (which is what blizzard wants) but 1 and 3 sounds weird. I actually want hellbat gets +1 armor (not sure light unit can have armor) or some health boost and make it pure mech, but I hardly think blizzard will remove bio tag ever. If they do, many won't QQ though.
And require 2 upgrade? its gonna be like terran hydra! I rather remove the whole transformation upgrade that hellions comes with transformation when armory finish
Why would number 3 be weird? the problem is hellbat and drops. upgrade before drops can still be worth it but terran needs to invest more or make it just delayed not coming in 7:30 mins and killing all workers.
I also have another thing come up to mind, make hellbats armored, and remove healing option but this sounds drastic. Just makes sense since they took parts of themselves and turned arms into shields, made their HP total to 135, it is big and slow so should be armored (looks like a marauder/firebat).
No you dont need to have 2 upgrades to be implemented, as I said they can choose one of those, pre ignigter or transform. Each one of the options would make it more pleasant than the current state as it would delay the 7:30 drop. 1st option would make the early drop 3 shot workers, the later drop would be the same potency as the current state.
First, the first option is about reducing durability of hellbat (not making early drop 3 shot. maybe you have mixed up numbers? ). But there is no units that heals only half or quarter since starcraft I alpha. Hellbat is already illogical by being a FACTORY unit that can be both mech and bio and this is even more non sense. And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
Secondly, no 2 is what actually blizzard suggested and not good because it affects other match ups that are not TvT (please read previous posts). That's why I wanted hellbat dmg to be less nerfed.
Thirdly, if you have to get current hellbat after factory-> armory-> techlab on the factory, then research, would you use it? This will nerf not only hellbat drop but also hellbat itself too much in ALL match ups.
Also, making armored (I thought I posted only few posts ago???) will make hellbat blowed by other +armor attackers, which will also affect not only drops but hellbat in general. Hellbat is the meatshield for mech because other mechs are armored but hellbat is not armored.
Hope I have explained well. XP Please read whole posts (I actually did!) because I don't want people just jump in and saying something that what already has been discussed.
Edit: when I say 'affects', it means it affects TOO MUCH.
Sorry I dont have the luxury of time reading the whole 40 pages of discussions.
but number 1 would not reduce its durability because it has still 135 hp. It would only slow the rate of heal in which they are practically immoral against zerg units if you have high medivac count. And yes this is a game mechanic, does not matter if it is not in SC2 alpha? why? because it is an update. Change is constant and we are now in HOTs, maybe in LoV we could have real firebats and actual medics back, who knows? Maybe warhounds will do a comeback. You cant justify starcraft for being realistic? This is a fiction game. Where can u find dudes making blades from thoughts? Does not matter if it makes more sense if they are bio/mech coming from a factory, maybe when he transforms he exposes his ass and makes him bio, we dont know he just does it.
The damage in number 2 is solely for the 2 hit worker kill which makes it 1 hit since you have 2 hellbats in a drop. This affects all match ups as worker HPs are 40, 40, 45. Has nothing to do with TvT or any other specific matchups.
The only thing it would make is delay the 7:30 minute drop that is too fast to do. maybe it would make it 8:30 this time, gives any race ample time to defend and not make them too far behind for defending.
The armored suggestion can work but it would need careful reviews has to add +1 armor to it or just leave it 0 default armor. Yeah meatshields tend to be armored right? and not light? if it makes sense to you that they have armored shields in their arms, suddenly have 35 more HP and slowed movement speed then yes armored makes most sense.
I read the whole OP post but again with the 40 pages of whine and for the interest of my time, i cant read 40 pages. I would just provide what I think are appropriate and I think the more similar the suggestion the more people seems to agree.
facepalmd...
no1- Its from SC I alpha. you didn't read a single post carefully did you?
I said: And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
no2- ONLY TvT suffers from early drops. Thats why I said hellbat should have 18+4 when they come out (so that they will 3 shots SCV but 2 shots drones and probes)
We don't want hellbat drops to be totally disappear. We just want hellbat drops less effective and less be seen.
no3- being light will make it NOT countered by + armor types which counter other mechs like tanks and thors.
And you said in no1 it doesn't matter the hellbat to be real life logical but you want to include real life logic to make 'sense'??? in no3?
Edit:Man, if you are trolling, you really got me.
why do you keep comparing SC2 alpha, BW and SC2 whatever version with HOTs? That is why we are now in HOTs, please move on.
point 1 does not have to do with drops, it has to do with A moving all around meatshield problem. for drops we have option no. 2 and 3.
Yes, again, option 2 and 3 will make it less effective or come later. Please read carefully.
no4 (armour type) you mean? not no.3 (transform option). As I said, it will need careful considerations but still thats why you build banshees for this not mass hellbats.
kid. keep trolling until someone bashes you.
LOL what is troll with that son? Do you even understand the points? I think you don't even play terran. tsk tsk
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
Now you are ridiculous. Siege Tanks have underperformed ever since the map size got bigger than Steppes of War where the current tank values for damage were balanced on. For such tiny/small maps that might be okish, because you can have all your tanks affect the whole map basically, but what about large maps like Whirlwind? Tanks dont have the mobility - which is good - to keep up with other types of armies, but to balance the size of the map you need to spread out your forces much more to be able to defend everywhere. Terrans have no "vs ground" static defense that can be massed for base defense (the Planetary Fortress doesnt really count because it cant be built behind a mineral line for example and due to its size placement is limited).
- If you are soooo fixed on the idea that Siege Tanks are "fine" then tell me why they only one-shot three lousy Zerglings with one shot. In BW they did the same damage to Zerglings as they do now, BUT there were far fewer Zerglings rushing the tanks AND the area of the attack was larger. - People have complained about dying to Zealots in mech TvP and so the Hellbat had to be invented. Did it really? Nope, because giving the Siege Tank a reasonable damage against light instead of a negligible one is ok. - Have you forgotten about the FRIENDLY FIRE splash damage? Any buff to the Siege Tank damage will make them die more easily from friendly fire.
So I think there are quite a lot of arguments why my suggestion would not make the Siege Tank absolutely ridiculously OP.
On July 04 2013 15:19 Big J wrote:
On July 04 2013 15:06 NarutO wrote:
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
That's true. But not even broodwar featured 70flat damage such as rabiator demands. Apart from overkill (which he didn't demand), broodwar tanks did 35 vs small 52.5 vs medium 70 vs large
It's just a wrong demand, there is no need to buff tanks vs marine, hellion, zergling, baneling, hydralisk and would severly screw with the balance of biomech vs Z and biomech vs mech. The tank should get a different fix, not a plain - huge - damage buff vs everything.
The reasons why I suggested 70 flat damage are ... 1. The radius of the attack is smaller compared to BW. 2. At 70 damage they one-shot Zerglings in the primary and secondary radius. That is basically where the number comes from ...
Why is there no need to buff the tank vs all the small and light units? It is a freaking TANK and should be able to scare away a horde of smaller units to the point that they can not just a-move into a line of tanks and win. The small infantry should be required to use tricks like dropping onto the tank or abducting them or blinding cloud or whatever else.
So your suggestion is: leaving 35+15 vs armored but adding extra dmg(+35 light?)? Can a unit have that complexed stat? Edit: Tell me if i'm wrong
You are wrong ... and I thought "70 damage" was clear enough. It is a flat 70 damage ... against everything ... because splash reduces it for the outer radius a lot.
Just look at the core radius of the Siege Tank attack, which is "0.4687 matrices" ... RADIUS. It isnt explained anywhere, but from the visuals I think it is safe to assume that "1 matric = length of a building block square" and that is TINY; if my assumption is correct the core area covers only 70% of one square ...
So is the increase in damage I propose really that huge when it affects only a rather tiny amount of space at its maximum potential?
"In siege mode, Siege Tanks do 35 (+15 against armored) splash damage. This damage has three different levels: units (whether hostile or friendly) within .4687 matrices of the target are dealt full damage, units between .4687 and .7812 matrices of the target receive 50% of full damage, and units between .7812 and 1.25 matrices from the target suffer just 25% of the full damage."
So...If seize tanks do 70 dmg... the 'tiny' space makes 70dmg (a little bit bigger than a zergling), b/w .4687 and .7812, 35dmg (about 5-6 zerglings) and b/w .7812 and 1.25, 17.5dmg for MANY zerglings? I hope terran won't mass tanks but I think eveyone will go for it!
Also, to give a reference point: Storm has a radius of 1.5 At +3 weapons vs +3 armor it is 19 damage per shot up to 1.25matrices away. Ling/bane would melt so fast...
Something that is mineral heavy and 0 gas, Kims correct in saying that as long as medic is still alive there's no loss. The drop can be costly because of medic boost and drop on top of the retreating workers. Just to be able to continue drops with no real affect on army (expect for some minerals being spent on HB and the occasinal medivac).
This is just my opinion in general, maybe delay the tech just like how many other things like DTs for example most races can produce some detection to deal with the issue. If those DTs die your behind because there was a risk involved in attempting that. To waste hell bats is nothing when a mule can help keep your mineral count high enough for drop production and army production.
Y'know I've always wondered something ever since the hellbat fighting began. The hellbat is essentially the firebat from BW, so why didn't firebat drops become as big a thing as hellbat drops. (I know it's asking for snow in July but please... no troll answers).
On July 05 2013 04:50 Nagi21 wrote: Y'know I've always wondered something ever since the hellbat fighting began. The hellbat is essentially the firebat from BW, so why didn't firebat drops become as big a thing as hellbat drops. (I know it's asking for snow in July but please... no troll answers).
Because you could build better units and employ superior tactics to the cheezy hellbat drops. :S BW Terran > SC2 Terran
On July 05 2013 04:50 Nagi21 wrote: Y'know I've always wondered something ever since the hellbat fighting began. The hellbat is essentially the firebat from BW, so why didn't firebat drops become as big a thing as hellbat drops. (I know it's asking for snow in July but please... no troll answers).
Firebats had a third of the health, cost gas and did much, much less damage over a much smaller area. Plus all of their damage was concussive; Hellbats still do 18 base damage against non-light units. Firebats do 8 base damage to medium units and 4 base damage against large units, oh, yeah, and armor still applies twice.
On July 05 2013 04:50 Nagi21 wrote: Y'know I've always wondered something ever since the hellbat fighting began. The hellbat is essentially the firebat from BW, so why didn't firebat drops become as big a thing as hellbat drops. (I know it's asking for snow in July but please... no troll answers).
Firebats had a third of the health, cost gas and did much, much less damage over a much smaller area. Plus all of their damage was concussive; Hellbats still do 18 base damage against non-light units. Firebats do 8 base damage to medium units and 4 base damage against large units, oh, yeah, and armor still applies twice.
On July 05 2013 04:50 Nagi21 wrote: Y'know I've always wondered something ever since the hellbat fighting began. The hellbat is essentially the firebat from BW, so why didn't firebat drops become as big a thing as hellbat drops. (I know it's asking for snow in July but please... no troll answers).
Having less workers per mineral and being spread over a larger area made AoE much less effective vs workers in BW.
On July 05 2013 04:50 Nagi21 wrote: Y'know I've always wondered something ever since the hellbat fighting began. The hellbat is essentially the firebat from BW, so why didn't firebat drops become as big a thing as hellbat drops. (I know it's asking for snow in July but please... no troll answers).
Having less workers per mineral and being spread over a larger area made AoE much less effective vs workers in BW.
More like Vultures were the most cost-effective unit ever. Why spend gas when you can spend only minerals for something with FAR more upside?
On July 05 2013 04:50 Nagi21 wrote: Y'know I've always wondered something ever since the hellbat fighting began. The hellbat is essentially the firebat from BW, so why didn't firebat drops become as big a thing as hellbat drops. (I know it's asking for snow in July but please... no troll answers).
Firebats had a third of the health, cost gas and did much, much less damage over a much smaller area. Plus all of their damage was concussive; Hellbats still do 18 base damage against non-light units. Firebats do 8 base damage to medium units and 4 base damage against large units, oh, yeah, and armor still applies twice.
you can stim them though
Vultures did the same thing a proposed firebat drop would do in BW. Except they were much cheaper and were good against many more units than firebats. They also didn't require dropships and medics. Just themselves.
On July 05 2013 04:50 Nagi21 wrote: Y'know I've always wondered something ever since the hellbat fighting began. The hellbat is essentially the firebat from BW, so why didn't firebat drops become as big a thing as hellbat drops. (I know it's asking for snow in July but please... no troll answers).
Firebats had a third of the health, cost gas and did much, much less damage over a much smaller area. Plus all of their damage was concussive; Hellbats still do 18 base damage against non-light units. Firebats do 8 base damage to medium units and 4 base damage against large units, oh, yeah, and armor still applies twice.
you can stim them though
Vultures did the same thing a proposed firebat drop would do in BW. Except they were much cheaper and were good against many more units than firebats. They also didn't require dropships and medics. Just themselves.
And you could do what korean people called 'vulture control'! Hellbat is just too good compared to ANY mineral dump units throughout SC1 (if you played original campaign! ), SC1 BW, SC2 WoL, and SC2 Hots. ppl say 'but it's a high tech! It requires armory that cost....' but have you ppl EVER compared that with other high tech units? THEY COST GAS AND HELLBAT DON't. After watching several OP (literally over-powered) hellbat/medivac armies, I think the only option is to make hellbat cost gas by making transformation servo mandatory. (maybe making a bit cheaper and faster but not like now, straight from factory.). If ppl think that is not good (hope all of them have read the discussions in other thread), please suggest something better. please Everyone knows that hellbat is broken
EDIT: Vulture was very cheap but it had pitful health and require to research speed (cost gas ) and mine, if they want to get spider mines. Hellbats? you only need medivac and medivac doesn't always die if microd correctly. and vulture had no splash but hellbat does with MASSIVE dps.
So... ppl. you don't have to read all posts that ppl and I have discussed. but there are few points to ponder. 1. just removing bio tag is not a good solution because hellbat will be still cost effective 2. hellbat have too much aggression in the early game but not much in the late game 3. only TvT suffers the most in the early game.
On July 05 2013 10:59 StarscreamG1 wrote: Never thought of buffing tank flat damage and nerfing the splash so that remains the same. It's an AWESOME IDEIA!
If the tank is buffed that would mean some other parts of terran would need a nerf. Super tank would mean early zerg all-ins will be totally obsolete and nobody can really say that terran is strugglin in the mid-lategame against zerg.
On July 05 2013 10:59 StarscreamG1 wrote: Never thought of buffing tank flat damage and nerfing the splash so that remains the same. It's an AWESOME IDEIA!
If the tank is buffed that would mean some other parts of terran would need a nerf. Super tank would mean early zerg all-ins will be totally obsolete and nobody can really say that terran is strugglin in the mid-lategame against zerg.
They still could work, just like mines you need to send in stuff to absorb the shot. Besides, terrans actually have to make the tanks, many still wont. I think people are suggesting nerf hellbats buff tanks.
On July 05 2013 10:59 StarscreamG1 wrote: Never thought of buffing tank flat damage and nerfing the splash so that remains the same. It's an AWESOME IDEIA!
If the tank is buffed that would mean some other parts of terran would need a nerf. Super tank would mean early zerg all-ins will be totally obsolete and nobody can really say that terran is strugglin in the mid-lategame against zerg.
They still could work, just like mines you need to send in stuff to absorb the shot. Besides, terrans actually have to make the tanks, many still wont. I think people are suggesting nerf hellbats buff tanks.
Yep! My suggestion (gathering all conclusions in the other thread)
On July 05 2013 10:06 SsDrKosS wrote: This is my final stand. critic me if i'm wrong
1. Remove bio tag (to make it less synesied with medivac when dropped.). (-point: causes some issue with archon dmg)
2. Make 18+4 light at the beginning so that early drop is not that efficient in TvT ONLY. Can research back with pre-igniter upgrade. (not sure what would be bad.maybe not enough nerf?)
3. If ppl still want bio tag, make a research of 50/50 60s or 100/100 90s that allows hellbat to be biological and transform. (-point: does ppl really want/use hellion/hellbat transformation)
@blargh. That is a good idea but blizzard won't introduce more units (esp BW units!) until Lov comes out. That's what they have said and make me sad
EDIT: what I want is 1+2. or 1+2+3. not just one of them.
Edit: I donno how to buff tank but it should be buffed.
Hellbat drops are very effective TvT, but not nearly as much PvT or ZvT because of Queens and Photon Overchange which every Zerg and Protoss will normally have around their bases.
Additionally, Hellbats are very effective against Protoss who remax primarily on Zealots PvT after a major engagement.
On July 05 2013 11:37 -_- wrote: Hellbat drops are very effective TvT, but not nearly as much PvT or ZvT because of Queens and Photon Overchange which every Zerg and Protoss will normally have around their bases.
Additionally, Hellbats are very effective against Protoss who remax primarily on Zealots PvT after a major engagement.
I don't want to see them nerfed at all!
IF you think only TvT early drop in Mineral line is the problem, this will solve. making Hellbat 16+4 so that it will 3 shots SCV but 2 shots Drone and probe. And you can research back in late game with IPI upgrade.
But people. can you clarify this? is the hellbat drop problem in only mineral line drop or hellbat/medivac itself is too good in the early game?
Honestly, we already see players like innovation deal with hellbats well while hellbat dropping themselves. It adds a level of speed and multitasking in the early game never before seen in tvt. I love it.
On July 05 2013 10:28 SsDrKosS wrote: So... ppl. you don't have to read all posts that ppl and I have discussed. but there are few points to ponder. 1. just removing bio tag is not a good solution because hellbat will be still cost effective 2. hellbat have too much aggression in the early game but not much in the late game 3. only TvT suffers the most in the early game.
Well, the hellbat is technically a tier-3 unit, so it being cost effective is based off the preparation by the other player, much like banshees and other "rush openers". I'm not sure what removing the bio tag would do, but it would still take a lot of lings to take them out in ZvT, for example.
Other than their early harassment potential, they are really not that great of a unit unless in certain situations, like Chargelots in PvT and mass ling in TvZ. They are slow, clunky units that are hard to even do damage in most matchups.
On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote: I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
I would go for this , minor needs in effectiveness and timing for a while ....
I agree with no2 (which is what blizzard wants) but 1 and 3 sounds weird. I actually want hellbat gets +1 armor (not sure light unit can have armor) or some health boost and make it pure mech, but I hardly think blizzard will remove bio tag ever. If they do, many won't QQ though.
And require 2 upgrade? its gonna be like terran hydra! I rather remove the whole transformation upgrade that hellions comes with transformation when armory finish
Why would number 3 be weird? the problem is hellbat and drops. upgrade before drops can still be worth it but terran needs to invest more or make it just delayed not coming in 7:30 mins and killing all workers.
I also have another thing come up to mind, make hellbats armored, and remove healing option but this sounds drastic. Just makes sense since they took parts of themselves and turned arms into shields, made their HP total to 135, it is big and slow so should be armored (looks like a marauder/firebat).
No you dont need to have 2 upgrades to be implemented, as I said they can choose one of those, pre ignigter or transform. Each one of the options would make it more pleasant than the current state as it would delay the 7:30 drop. 1st option would make the early drop 3 shot workers, the later drop would be the same potency as the current state.
First, the first option is about reducing durability of hellbat (not making early drop 3 shot. maybe you have mixed up numbers? ). But there is no units that heals only half or quarter since starcraft I alpha. Hellbat is already illogical by being a FACTORY unit that can be both mech and bio and this is even more non sense. And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
Secondly, no 2 is what actually blizzard suggested and not good because it affects other match ups that are not TvT (please read previous posts). That's why I wanted hellbat dmg to be less nerfed.
Thirdly, if you have to get current hellbat after factory-> armory-> techlab on the factory, then research, would you use it? This will nerf not only hellbat drop but also hellbat itself too much in ALL match ups.
Also, making armored (I thought I posted only few posts ago???) will make hellbat blowed by other +armor attackers, which will also affect not only drops but hellbat in general. Hellbat is the meatshield for mech because other mechs are armored but hellbat is not armored.
Hope I have explained well. XP Please read whole posts (I actually did!) because I don't want people just jump in and saying something that what already has been discussed.
Edit: when I say 'affects', it means it affects TOO MUCH.
Sorry I dont have the luxury of time reading the whole 40 pages of discussions.
but number 1 would not reduce its durability because it has still 135 hp. It would only slow the rate of heal in which they are practically immoral against zerg units if you have high medivac count. And yes this is a game mechanic, does not matter if it is not in SC2 alpha? why? because it is an update. Change is constant and we are now in HOTs, maybe in LoV we could have real firebats and actual medics back, who knows? Maybe warhounds will do a comeback. You cant justify starcraft for being realistic? This is a fiction game. Where can u find dudes making blades from thoughts? Does not matter if it makes more sense if they are bio/mech coming from a factory, maybe when he transforms he exposes his ass and makes him bio, we dont know he just does it.
The damage in number 2 is solely for the 2 hit worker kill which makes it 1 hit since you have 2 hellbats in a drop. This affects all match ups as worker HPs are 40, 40, 45. Has nothing to do with TvT or any other specific matchups.
The only thing it would make is delay the 7:30 minute drop that is too fast to do. maybe it would make it 8:30 this time, gives any race ample time to defend and not make them too far behind for defending.
The armored suggestion can work but it would need careful reviews has to add +1 armor to it or just leave it 0 default armor. Yeah meatshields tend to be armored right? and not light? if it makes sense to you that they have armored shields in their arms, suddenly have 35 more HP and slowed movement speed then yes armored makes most sense.
I read the whole OP post but again with the 40 pages of whine and for the interest of my time, i cant read 40 pages. I would just provide what I think are appropriate and I think the more similar the suggestion the more people seems to agree.
facepalmd...
no1- Its from SC I alpha. you didn't read a single post carefully did you?
I said: And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
no2- ONLY TvT suffers from early drops. Thats why I said hellbat should have 18+4 when they come out (so that they will 3 shots SCV but 2 shots drones and probes)
We don't want hellbat drops to be totally disappear. We just want hellbat drops less effective and less be seen.
no3- being light will make it NOT countered by + armor types which counter other mechs like tanks and thors.
And you said in no1 it doesn't matter the hellbat to be real life logical but you want to include real life logic to make 'sense'??? in no3?
Edit:Man, if you are trolling, you really got me.
why do you keep comparing SC2 alpha, BW and SC2 whatever version with HOTs? That is why we are now in HOTs, please move on.
point 1 does not have to do with drops, it has to do with A moving all around meatshield problem. for drops we have option no. 2 and 3.
Yes, again, option 2 and 3 will make it less effective or come later. Please read carefully.
no4 (armour type) you mean? not no.3 (transform option). As I said, it will need careful considerations but still thats why you build banshees for this not mass hellbats.
kid. keep trolling until someone bashes you.
LOL what is troll with that son? Do you even understand the points? I think you don't even play terran. tsk tsk
You are trolling because all those "separate games" you list are actually an evolution based on the same concept. That "we are in HotS now" remark is like a any of todays idiots who think that everything new must be better and has nothing to learn from the old. Too many kids these days are "worshippers of new technology" while not noticing that new stuff causes more problems than old stuff. And it isnt "stuff" only but also behaviours and general economy "advancements" which go down a bad path because kids are worshipping "the new" without question.
On July 05 2013 11:37 -_- wrote: Hellbat drops are very effective TvT, but not nearly as much PvT or ZvT because of Queens and Photon Overchange which every Zerg and Protoss will normally have around their bases.
Additionally, Hellbats are very effective against Protoss who remax primarily on Zealots PvT after a major engagement.
I don't want to see them nerfed at all!
IF you think only TvT early drop in Mineral line is the problem, this will solve. making Hellbat 16+4 so that it will 3 shots SCV but 2 shots Drone and probe. And you can research back in late game with IPI upgrade.
But people. can you clarify this? is the hellbat drop problem in only mineral line drop or hellbat/medivac itself is too good in the early game?
I'd say that hellbats might be a problem all game in TvT but the 16+4 (as has been discussed to death) will make them obsolete in TvP, and much less frequent in TvZ and TvT standalone armies (the latter is speculation, it depends on how much people mech with standard blue flame hellion builds.)
On July 05 2013 11:37 -_- wrote: Hellbat drops are very effective TvT, but not nearly as much PvT or ZvT because of Queens and Photon Overchange which every Zerg and Protoss will normally have around their bases.
Additionally, Hellbats are very effective against Protoss who remax primarily on Zealots PvT after a major engagement.
I don't want to see them nerfed at all!
IF you think only TvT early drop in Mineral line is the problem, this will solve. making Hellbat 16+4 so that it will 3 shots SCV but 2 shots Drone and probe. And you can research back in late game with IPI upgrade.
But people. can you clarify this? is the hellbat drop problem in only mineral line drop or hellbat/medivac itself is too good in the early game?
I'd say that hellbats might be a problem all game in TvT but the 16+4 (as has been discussed to death) will make them obsolete in TvP, and much less frequent in TvZ and TvT standalone armies (the latter is speculation, it depends on how much people mech with standard blue flame hellion builds.)
okay... I'm trying to think of a solution that are not weird and afffects minimal amount of nerf in other matchups (for me 16+4light and IPI to get full is my personal favorite). so what would you suggest? help us
On July 05 2013 11:37 -_- wrote: Hellbat drops are very effective TvT, but not nearly as much PvT or ZvT because of Queens and Photon Overchange which every Zerg and Protoss will normally have around their bases.
Additionally, Hellbats are very effective against Protoss who remax primarily on Zealots PvT after a major engagement.
I don't want to see them nerfed at all!
IF you think only TvT early drop in Mineral line is the problem, this will solve. making Hellbat 16+4 so that it will 3 shots SCV but 2 shots Drone and probe. And you can research back in late game with IPI upgrade.
But people. can you clarify this? is the hellbat drop problem in only mineral line drop or hellbat/medivac itself is too good in the early game?
I'd say that hellbats might be a problem all game in TvT but the 16+4 (as has been discussed to death) will make them obsolete in TvP, and much less frequent in TvZ and TvT standalone armies (the latter is speculation, it depends on how much people mech with standard blue flame hellion builds.)
okay... I'm trying to think of a solution that are not weird and afffects minimal amount of nerf in other matchups (for me 16+4light and IPI to get full is my personal favorite). so what would you suggest? help us
How about not trying to "fix the Hellbat" but rather fix the "drop delivery system" ... the Medivac? Without the boost the warning time and the time they are in range of turrets increase and make them riskier.
Another reason why the Hellbat drop is powerful is that it is only two units that need to be dropped. Compare that to a Medivac of Marines and the Marines take AGES to deploy, which makes a Marine drop far less powerful. Thus adding a delay for dropping the second Hellbat (base on supply and implemented for all units and all races?) might be ok.
On July 05 2013 11:37 -_- wrote: Hellbat drops are very effective TvT, but not nearly as much PvT or ZvT because of Queens and Photon Overchange which every Zerg and Protoss will normally have around their bases.
Additionally, Hellbats are very effective against Protoss who remax primarily on Zealots PvT after a major engagement.
I don't want to see them nerfed at all!
IF you think only TvT early drop in Mineral line is the problem, this will solve. making Hellbat 16+4 so that it will 3 shots SCV but 2 shots Drone and probe. And you can research back in late game with IPI upgrade.
But people. can you clarify this? is the hellbat drop problem in only mineral line drop or hellbat/medivac itself is too good in the early game?
I'd say that hellbats might be a problem all game in TvT but the 16+4 (as has been discussed to death) will make them obsolete in TvP, and much less frequent in TvZ and TvT standalone armies (the latter is speculation, it depends on how much people mech with standard blue flame hellion builds.)
okay... I'm trying to think of a solution that are not weird and afffects minimal amount of nerf in other matchups (for me 16+4light and IPI to get full is my personal favorite). so what would you suggest? help us
You replied to my suggestion on the previous page (buff turret +3 against mechanical to make dropping a mineral line with a turret a 1-way trip), but I'd say even such proposals should be considered extremely carefully as it might have an effect on voidray all-in's, bio versus mech TvT, and warp prism play in PvT.
On July 05 2013 11:37 -_- wrote: Hellbat drops are very effective TvT, but not nearly as much PvT or ZvT because of Queens and Photon Overchange which every Zerg and Protoss will normally have around their bases.
Additionally, Hellbats are very effective against Protoss who remax primarily on Zealots PvT after a major engagement.
I don't want to see them nerfed at all!
IF you think only TvT early drop in Mineral line is the problem, this will solve. making Hellbat 16+4 so that it will 3 shots SCV but 2 shots Drone and probe. And you can research back in late game with IPI upgrade.
But people. can you clarify this? is the hellbat drop problem in only mineral line drop or hellbat/medivac itself is too good in the early game?
I'd say that hellbats might be a problem all game in TvT but the 16+4 (as has been discussed to death) will make them obsolete in TvP, and much less frequent in TvZ and TvT standalone armies (the latter is speculation, it depends on how much people mech with standard blue flame hellion builds.)
okay... I'm trying to think of a solution that are not weird and afffects minimal amount of nerf in other matchups (for me 16+4light and IPI to get full is my personal favorite). so what would you suggest? help us
How about not trying to "fix the Hellbat" but rather fix the "drop delivery system" ... the Medivac? Without the boost the warning time and the time they are in range of turrets increase and make them riskier.
Another reason why the Hellbat drop is powerful is that it is only two units that need to be dropped. Compare that to a Medivac of Marines and the Marines take AGES to deploy, which makes a Marine drop far less powerful. Thus adding a delay for dropping the second Hellbat (base on supply and implemented for all units and all races?) might be ok.
I actually started posting lots about hellbat nerf from the end of june because i'm pretty sure they will not fix medivac. according to their comments on medivac, they LOVE current speedvac.
But if they can fix medivac, screw what I've posted in team liquid. BLIZZARD! FIX MEDIVAC!
btw, I will buy our suggestion only in some degree. I like your idea but maybe making unload delayed according to cargo size. (I don't want hellbat to be dropped as the same as maurader and hellion)
On July 05 2013 11:37 -_- wrote: Hellbat drops are very effective TvT, but not nearly as much PvT or ZvT because of Queens and Photon Overchange which every Zerg and Protoss will normally have around their bases.
Additionally, Hellbats are very effective against Protoss who remax primarily on Zealots PvT after a major engagement.
I don't want to see them nerfed at all!
IF you think only TvT early drop in Mineral line is the problem, this will solve. making Hellbat 16+4 so that it will 3 shots SCV but 2 shots Drone and probe. And you can research back in late game with IPI upgrade.
But people. can you clarify this? is the hellbat drop problem in only mineral line drop or hellbat/medivac itself is too good in the early game?
I'd say that hellbats might be a problem all game in TvT but the 16+4 (as has been discussed to death) will make them obsolete in TvP, and much less frequent in TvZ and TvT standalone armies (the latter is speculation, it depends on how much people mech with standard blue flame hellion builds.)
okay... I'm trying to think of a solution that are not weird and afffects minimal amount of nerf in other matchups (for me 16+4light and IPI to get full is my personal favorite). so what would you suggest? help us
How about not trying to "fix the Hellbat" but rather fix the "drop delivery system" ... the Medivac? Without the boost the warning time and the time they are in range of turrets increase and make them riskier.
Another reason why the Hellbat drop is powerful is that it is only two units that need to be dropped. Compare that to a Medivac of Marines and the Marines take AGES to deploy, which makes a Marine drop far less powerful. Thus adding a delay for dropping the second Hellbat (base on supply and implemented for all units and all races?) might be ok.
I actually started posting lots about hellbat nerf from the end of june because i'm pretty sure they will not fix medivac. according to their comments on medivac, they LOVE current speedvac.
But if they can fix medivac, screw what I've posted in team liquid. BLIZZARD! FIX MEDIVAC!
btw, I will buy our suggestion only in some degree. I like your idea but maybe making unload delayed according to cargo size. (I don't want hellbat to be dropped as the same as maurader and hellion)
Personally I detest the "unload delay solution" because it would have to be done for all units and all races equally, but since no one seems to notice that little tidbit about the power of Hellbat drops I put it on the table. You are probably right in basing the delay on cargo space.
Instead of a speed boost I would add an upgrade for the Medivac on the Fusion Core and this would either ... - allow you to instantly unload everything from the Medivac with an active click and a cooldown on the "drop beam" OR - land the Medivac and change into a sort of bunker where the units inside can shoot out. Obviously it stops healing units while on the ground, but if it is destroyed the units get out unharmed like a regular bunker. This is also a good way to escape from "aa only air units" like Vikings and Corruptors and Phoenix should not be able to lift it while they are landed.
I like these suggestions much more thant the speed boost, but Blizzard is on their "speed solves everything" trip ...
Personally I agree with the statements that it is not the Hellbat itself is broken and should be nerfed. Blizzard designed its units around pros and cons, counter-of and countered-by.
The difference between Hellion and Hellbat should be (according to Blizz) that Hellions are fast, micro intensive lightweight units. They should be able to harass mineral lines, provided the terran can get it in said mineral line. We already saw in WoL (albeit after +1 year) that Terrans were adapting and using the Hellion better and better for this, until they got slightly nerfed. Blue flame upgrade was necessary to increase damage enough to improve harassment impact. And Terrans already used the Hellion drop (4 in 1 Medivac) to try and kill a mineral line. Because the Medivac did not have boost yet, there were certain risks involved in this drop strategy. Micro-intensive, no certainty of how the opponent would react, no certainty of getting out alive.
In comes HotS, where now we have Hellbats and Speedivacs. Hellbats are beefier Hellions, with healing capability (coz bio) and a high dps in a splash cone. Referring to the Hellion above, the downside (according to Blizz again) is that they are very slow and clunky. Blizz's idea was to provide the Transformation Servos to switch between two stances in order to make them an interesting unit that could benefit from both form's pros, while suffering the drawbacks "when the player chooses to switch". In Hellbat form, they are a good counter to zerglings. They work good vs Zealots. These were the main reasons Hellbats were added (as a buff for mech). In my opinion, that should not change.
However, the (free, as in no research) speedivac takes away the weak point of the Hellbat; suddenly, you can have Hellbats in locations otherwise nigh impossible for Hellbats to reach (e.g. in the middle of a mineral line). It is the combination of the huge splash high dps, only 2 HBs per medivac (so fast drop time) and boost speed of the medivac (all OK on its own) that form the real issue, methinks. And on the point D. Kim mentions as it being too easy to execute, I also wholeheartedly agree: almost no risks, very high rewards. One can drop 5 times, be 4 times unsuccessful, but if the last one is a full hit, then you can still come out ahead. It does not improve high level play, it dumbs it down.
So in my opinion, an interesting way of trying to solve this is to make Hellbats harder to use: 1) Make Transformation Servos available on the Tech Lab of a Factory immediately (no Armory requirement) 2) Remove option of building Hellbats directly. 3) Make transformation required to reach Hellbat form (just like HT/DT -> Archon, ling -> bane, corruptor -> BL) These steps make it a tad more difficult to get Hellbats (if you forget to transform), without compromizing balance. 4) Prevent Hellbats from being transportable by Medivac just like the deployed siege tank. (They can come up with a new attribute for that for example, like they did before) 5) NO change to the damage output of Hellbats or the healing
The fact that this will eliminate HB drops is, imo, not a problem. Terrans can still drop Hellions, as we already saw in WoL. Combined with the speed boost, this can still be hard to handle; but the hellions would be easier to take down than the Hellbats. Hellbats can still serve their role as beefy tank units (that can be healed) in a mech/biomech composition. I would imagine sneaky high level Terrans being able to go in with a 4 hellion drop, transform 1/2 Hellbats, walk them to the ramp while triggering the worker pullback with the other Hellions, to then see them evaporate on said ramp ...
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
The primary radius is TINY and I think about three Zerglings fill it up, so not many units will be hit by any increase in damage but the real change comes from the secondary and tertiary radius.
The real reason why Blizzard dont make any serious effort of fixing mech is that they hate it with a passion. It seems quite odd that they added so many anti-tank units to the other races and then leave the playstyle useless as a dead goldfish. They are fully in the "speed is best to make a STRATEGY game interesting" mode ... which is ludicrous, because strategy is more than a build order but also premeditated and carefully executed unit movement. Thus we get improved harrassment units and not improved army units for Terran. A clear indicator is the "new AA mode" for the Thor ... which deals roughly the same damage as a Goliath from BW against a single target ... and that with more easily mass produced air units.
Thus any of the "oh lets just require transformation to get Hellbats" or "put bonus damage into an upgrade" are fine and well, but they wont be implemented because Blizzard like harrassment and has said they want more of it.
Yep, SC2 is BARELY a strategy game at this point.
Too much micro involved... engagement game? micro one engagement... Flash said sc2 should have bigger armies...
bw : - not that much workers, less minerals patch - 12 units max per boxing - control group/building : 1 - speed game less faster than sc2 basically, bigger armies, more multitask, more time to spend on macro, more time for better games xD
What would these changes be, to balance the game better?
Flash: I think that each unit costs too much supply right now. So even when you have a 200/200 army, it doesn't feel like you have much stuff. I think changing that will make it more entertaining.
Though I really hate to quote Flash, I agree that SC2 should have higher supply limit, if we don't want 3 base max army, instantly.
You could alternatively lower the economy so that it is hard to get to the 200 supply limit; BW did it and was "kinda ok" to watch.
The 200 supply limit is arbitrarily chosen, BUT you have to ask yourself several questions when thinking about raising it: 1. Is a battle with more units really "better" or does that just cluster the screen too much for the viewer / overload the player with more tasks and ultimately makes unit micro a thing of the past. 2. Will a higher supply limit enable more units to reach a critical number so they become "quasi invulnerable" and ultimately too efficient to be balanced? 3. Will a higher supply limit not be advantageous to the races with the highest economy? Zerg usually have a higher economy and they have to be careful about finding the right balance between workers and army, but with a higher limit they can have awesome worker supply with an even bigger army. The other two races do have problems defending more bases than now, so it might end up as a clear advantage for Zerg. 4. If you had a bigger economy, will that become a disadvantage for Terrans due to the fact that they need the most production buildings? 5. How can you adjust the supply numbers of the units better if you stick to "integer" numbers?
So ... Flash is wrong in this case if he ever said that.
---
Technically it is possible to make a game with MANY MORE units, but that doesnt make the game more exciting. Total Annihilation, Supreme Commander, Total War games all have wayy more units, but these games are good because of the style of the fights ... and Starcraft has a completely different style to them. An artificial limitation which is not based upon the computer power - as it makes sense for those other games because they can get laggy if everyone has 700 units - might be a good thing just as an artificial limitation to 12 units per control group could be necessary to make Starcraft work better and without as much deathball and clump action.
I think one reason that Blizzard is a little hesitant to nerf hellbats so quickly is that they do in fact fill many holes in the terran army. They are helpful both against zerg and protoss. I don't believe people call them imba outside of drops, so nerfing them will also nerf the good aspects of hellbats which blizzard originally intended to help terran out.
Removing the biotag as some have suggested would help with the drops; however, it would also nerf the bio army when hellbats are mixed in. Hellbats were meant to be able to be mixed in to both bio and mech armies (apparent by the healing aspect of the hellbats) and therefore should remain as such.
So again, we look to the drop as being the main the problem and specifically, the boost ability of the medivacs. This is what allows hell bats to be so effective as it doesn't really matter if there are defenses set up because one can just boost over them and still deal a great amount of economic damage. If the defending player pulls the scvs, it still doesn't matter too much as the hellbats just get loaded back up and then boosted over to them again. When the army comes to deal with the hellbats, they can just be loaded up and boosted away so that they can return again when the army is gone making it so the defending player has a hard time leaving their base (going viking/phoenix/muta would stop this but then that also confines the defending players options and they would always have to do this which again is another win for the hellbat player).
In dealing with the medivac speedboost, you cannot simply take it away as this is a huge nerf to terran. Bio drops will pretty much become obsolete (except maybe in tvt) as zerg and protoss have both been given better defensive options (faster mutas and mothership core). Being that dropping has always been a staple of the Terran race which makes the race both fun to play and exciting to watch from a spectator perspective, disabling the boost and rendering drops very ineffective would also be a bad option.
Given everything that I have said so far, it should become obvious what the best solution is: Disable the boosting ability of medivacs while a hellbat is in them. Let's look at some of the implications of this. Less defenses will be necessary for dealing with the drops. The medivac will have to be better controlled because slowly flying over a turret will result in more damage to the medivac making the hellbat drops more risky. The opponent will have more time to react to the drop in the first place as the drop is slower. Once the workers are pulled, the hellbats won't be able to be loaded into the medivac and easily catch up to the workers again. This sounds like a plausible solution that will fix the problem with hellbat drops without weakening the Terran army as a whole.
As a last note: This nerf would definitely make hellbat drops be much less effective. Hellbat drops would still have the potential to deal big damage as the units themselves have not been altered; but, they would be easier to deal with from the defender's side. It is even quite possible that they would not even be worth doing again (this would have to be tested to see if it's truly the case). However, having an option for a terran to go hellbat drops is still good (as more options for a race is always better from a player's and spectator's perspective). If the nerf completely gets rid of hellbat drops, an option could be to remove the armory requirement again for the hellbats. That way, they can still be an early game option that a terran can go for and the opponent would have to be prepared for accordingly. Hellbat drops would still be able to do decent in late game scenarios as many things are happening at once and the defender might not have the apm/map awareness to react to the hellbat drops while doing the other tasks required of them and big damage could still occur. Static defenses would still be needed at those further away expansions (as they are now pre-nerf) to deny the drops which is still good for the hellbat player as the other player had to invest in something.
I believe this could be a great solution to the problem at hand and should be contemplated further.
Though I really hate to quote Flash, I agree that SC2 should have higher supply limit, if we don't want 3 base max army, instantly.
You don't need to higher the supply limit, just make the "bigger" units cost less supply. Tanks being 3 supply is bad enough, but a thor being 6 just mean to have a mech army with any form of anti air your army is about 3 times smaller than it should be.
Though I really hate to quote Flash, I agree that SC2 should have higher supply limit, if we don't want 3 base max army, instantly.
Finally you can counter ultralisks with widow mines? Finally T/Z can play with 300supply roach/hydra marine/marauder at the time Protoss reaches 200? Finally we can witness 13-14min 300supply roach pushes?
SC2 is so strongly balanced around that supply limit, without it most of the lategame transitions lose their right to exist and lowtier spams such as roach/hydra and bio become even more dominant.
Lowering basic Hellbat damage to 18 +4vs and making Blue Flame return Hellbat to do 18 +18 vs light is definitely gonna help out with those silly TvT games we see now. Plus making transformation upgrade cost 50/50 gonna make it quite useful actually e.g. harassing opponent with a few Blue Flame Hellions to remain safer with medivacs when able and returning to full power to defend when needed, defending late game Zealot, DT harass is going to get easier and more exciting to watch
On July 08 2013 06:14 ProAndrii wrote: Lowering basic Hellbat damage to 18 +4vs and making Blue Flame return Hellbat to do 18 +18 vs light is definitely gonna help out with those silly TvT games we see now. Plus making transformation upgrade cost 50/50 gonna make it quite useful actually e.g. harassing opponent with a few Blue Flame Hellions to remain safer with medivacs when able and returning to full power to defend when needed, defending late game Zealot, DT harass is going to get easier and more exciting to watch
With your brilliance, you should be an inventor. Try coming up with solutions to the pressing problems of our times. For example, we really need a primarily single-passenger transportation which takes no fuel and allows for flexible maneuvering. It might help to utilize a couple of these new contraptions called "the wheel".
Archons do additional damage vs biological. This will massively buff hellbat vs toss.
Yes the reason why they became Bio in the first place, still remember the Beta with Hellbats just tanking Protoss while bio doesn't even have to kite. No way to reach Ghosts and Vikings and after the Bio change, they optimized Hellbats vs Zealots even. So this would be a huge buff for TvP, while it would not affect the Hellvac problem in TvT. It would help Zerg a little though against Hellvacs, but they are the least troubled anyway. Was quiet funny to see a Terrans roll over Protoss and then they introduce this change and don't even mention TvP. Okay it made Hellbats useless versus Toss until they optimized the splash. So maybe they weren't aware.
I would go for this , minor needs in effectiveness and timing for a while ....
I agree with no2 (which is what blizzard wants) but 1 and 3 sounds weird. I actually want hellbat gets +1 armor (not sure light unit can have armor) or some health boost and make it pure mech, but I hardly think blizzard will remove bio tag ever. If they do, many won't QQ though.
And require 2 upgrade? its gonna be like terran hydra! I rather remove the whole transformation upgrade that hellions comes with transformation when armory finish
Why would number 3 be weird? the problem is hellbat and drops. upgrade before drops can still be worth it but terran needs to invest more or make it just delayed not coming in 7:30 mins and killing all workers.
I also have another thing come up to mind, make hellbats armored, and remove healing option but this sounds drastic. Just makes sense since they took parts of themselves and turned arms into shields, made their HP total to 135, it is big and slow so should be armored (looks like a marauder/firebat).
No you dont need to have 2 upgrades to be implemented, as I said they can choose one of those, pre ignigter or transform. Each one of the options would make it more pleasant than the current state as it would delay the 7:30 drop. 1st option would make the early drop 3 shot workers, the later drop would be the same potency as the current state.
First, the first option is about reducing durability of hellbat (not making early drop 3 shot. maybe you have mixed up numbers? ). But there is no units that heals only half or quarter since starcraft I alpha. Hellbat is already illogical by being a FACTORY unit that can be both mech and bio and this is even more non sense. And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
Secondly, no 2 is what actually blizzard suggested and not good because it affects other match ups that are not TvT (please read previous posts). That's why I wanted hellbat dmg to be less nerfed.
Thirdly, if you have to get current hellbat after factory-> armory-> techlab on the factory, then research, would you use it? This will nerf not only hellbat drop but also hellbat itself too much in ALL match ups.
Also, making armored (I thought I posted only few posts ago???) will make hellbat blowed by other +armor attackers, which will also affect not only drops but hellbat in general. Hellbat is the meatshield for mech because other mechs are armored but hellbat is not armored.
Hope I have explained well. XP Please read whole posts (I actually did!) because I don't want people just jump in and saying something that what already has been discussed.
Edit: when I say 'affects', it means it affects TOO MUCH.
Sorry I dont have the luxury of time reading the whole 40 pages of discussions.
but number 1 would not reduce its durability because it has still 135 hp. It would only slow the rate of heal in which they are practically immoral against zerg units if you have high medivac count. And yes this is a game mechanic, does not matter if it is not in SC2 alpha? why? because it is an update. Change is constant and we are now in HOTs, maybe in LoV we could have real firebats and actual medics back, who knows? Maybe warhounds will do a comeback. You cant justify starcraft for being realistic? This is a fiction game. Where can u find dudes making blades from thoughts? Does not matter if it makes more sense if they are bio/mech coming from a factory, maybe when he transforms he exposes his ass and makes him bio, we dont know he just does it.
The damage in number 2 is solely for the 2 hit worker kill which makes it 1 hit since you have 2 hellbats in a drop. This affects all match ups as worker HPs are 40, 40, 45. Has nothing to do with TvT or any other specific matchups.
The only thing it would make is delay the 7:30 minute drop that is too fast to do. maybe it would make it 8:30 this time, gives any race ample time to defend and not make them too far behind for defending.
The armored suggestion can work but it would need careful reviews has to add +1 armor to it or just leave it 0 default armor. Yeah meatshields tend to be armored right? and not light? if it makes sense to you that they have armored shields in their arms, suddenly have 35 more HP and slowed movement speed then yes armored makes most sense.
I read the whole OP post but again with the 40 pages of whine and for the interest of my time, i cant read 40 pages. I would just provide what I think are appropriate and I think the more similar the suggestion the more people seems to agree.
facepalmd...
no1- Its from SC I alpha. you didn't read a single post carefully did you?
I said: And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
no2- ONLY TvT suffers from early drops. Thats why I said hellbat should have 18+4 when they come out (so that they will 3 shots SCV but 2 shots drones and probes)
We don't want hellbat drops to be totally disappear. We just want hellbat drops less effective and less be seen.
no3- being light will make it NOT countered by + armor types which counter other mechs like tanks and thors.
And you said in no1 it doesn't matter the hellbat to be real life logical but you want to include real life logic to make 'sense'??? in no3?
Edit:Man, if you are trolling, you really got me.
why do you keep comparing SC2 alpha, BW and SC2 whatever version with HOTs? That is why we are now in HOTs, please move on.
point 1 does not have to do with drops, it has to do with A moving all around meatshield problem. for drops we have option no. 2 and 3.
Yes, again, option 2 and 3 will make it less effective or come later. Please read carefully.
no4 (armour type) you mean? not no.3 (transform option). As I said, it will need careful considerations but still thats why you build banshees for this not mass hellbats.
kid. keep trolling until someone bashes you.
LOL what is troll with that son? Do you even understand the points? I think you don't even play terran. tsk tsk
You are trolling because all those "separate games" you list are actually an evolution based on the same concept. That "we are in HotS now" remark is like a any of todays idiots who think that everything new must be better and has nothing to learn from the old. Too many kids these days are "worshippers of new technology" while not noticing that new stuff causes more problems than old stuff. And it isnt "stuff" only but also behaviours and general economy "advancements" which go down a bad path because kids are worshipping "the new" without question.
You dwell in the past if that is the case. You problem is that it works before in X, it should work now in Y. Which is just wrong. No they wont because they are totally different games. We need to fix and take to account all current issues not just compare it with past games and results. That is why new ideas are welcomed here not look for nerfing and dwelling to old stuff. Change is inevitable. learn to adapt and accept it, thats why old stuff turns obsolete because new is almost always better. It is just dumb to just dwell on the old stuff when you can have so much better to have and use.
I agree with no2 (which is what blizzard wants) but 1 and 3 sounds weird. I actually want hellbat gets +1 armor (not sure light unit can have armor) or some health boost and make it pure mech, but I hardly think blizzard will remove bio tag ever. If they do, many won't QQ though.
And require 2 upgrade? its gonna be like terran hydra! I rather remove the whole transformation upgrade that hellions comes with transformation when armory finish
Why would number 3 be weird? the problem is hellbat and drops. upgrade before drops can still be worth it but terran needs to invest more or make it just delayed not coming in 7:30 mins and killing all workers.
I also have another thing come up to mind, make hellbats armored, and remove healing option but this sounds drastic. Just makes sense since they took parts of themselves and turned arms into shields, made their HP total to 135, it is big and slow so should be armored (looks like a marauder/firebat).
No you dont need to have 2 upgrades to be implemented, as I said they can choose one of those, pre ignigter or transform. Each one of the options would make it more pleasant than the current state as it would delay the 7:30 drop. 1st option would make the early drop 3 shot workers, the later drop would be the same potency as the current state.
First, the first option is about reducing durability of hellbat (not making early drop 3 shot. maybe you have mixed up numbers? ). But there is no units that heals only half or quarter since starcraft I alpha. Hellbat is already illogical by being a FACTORY unit that can be both mech and bio and this is even more non sense. And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
Secondly, no 2 is what actually blizzard suggested and not good because it affects other match ups that are not TvT (please read previous posts). That's why I wanted hellbat dmg to be less nerfed.
Thirdly, if you have to get current hellbat after factory-> armory-> techlab on the factory, then research, would you use it? This will nerf not only hellbat drop but also hellbat itself too much in ALL match ups.
Also, making armored (I thought I posted only few posts ago???) will make hellbat blowed by other +armor attackers, which will also affect not only drops but hellbat in general. Hellbat is the meatshield for mech because other mechs are armored but hellbat is not armored.
Hope I have explained well. XP Please read whole posts (I actually did!) because I don't want people just jump in and saying something that what already has been discussed.
Edit: when I say 'affects', it means it affects TOO MUCH.
Sorry I dont have the luxury of time reading the whole 40 pages of discussions.
but number 1 would not reduce its durability because it has still 135 hp. It would only slow the rate of heal in which they are practically immoral against zerg units if you have high medivac count. And yes this is a game mechanic, does not matter if it is not in SC2 alpha? why? because it is an update. Change is constant and we are now in HOTs, maybe in LoV we could have real firebats and actual medics back, who knows? Maybe warhounds will do a comeback. You cant justify starcraft for being realistic? This is a fiction game. Where can u find dudes making blades from thoughts? Does not matter if it makes more sense if they are bio/mech coming from a factory, maybe when he transforms he exposes his ass and makes him bio, we dont know he just does it.
The damage in number 2 is solely for the 2 hit worker kill which makes it 1 hit since you have 2 hellbats in a drop. This affects all match ups as worker HPs are 40, 40, 45. Has nothing to do with TvT or any other specific matchups.
The only thing it would make is delay the 7:30 minute drop that is too fast to do. maybe it would make it 8:30 this time, gives any race ample time to defend and not make them too far behind for defending.
The armored suggestion can work but it would need careful reviews has to add +1 armor to it or just leave it 0 default armor. Yeah meatshields tend to be armored right? and not light? if it makes sense to you that they have armored shields in their arms, suddenly have 35 more HP and slowed movement speed then yes armored makes most sense.
I read the whole OP post but again with the 40 pages of whine and for the interest of my time, i cant read 40 pages. I would just provide what I think are appropriate and I think the more similar the suggestion the more people seems to agree.
facepalmd...
no1- Its from SC I alpha. you didn't read a single post carefully did you?
I said: And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
no2- ONLY TvT suffers from early drops. Thats why I said hellbat should have 18+4 when they come out (so that they will 3 shots SCV but 2 shots drones and probes)
We don't want hellbat drops to be totally disappear. We just want hellbat drops less effective and less be seen.
no3- being light will make it NOT countered by + armor types which counter other mechs like tanks and thors.
And you said in no1 it doesn't matter the hellbat to be real life logical but you want to include real life logic to make 'sense'??? in no3?
Edit:Man, if you are trolling, you really got me.
why do you keep comparing SC2 alpha, BW and SC2 whatever version with HOTs? That is why we are now in HOTs, please move on.
point 1 does not have to do with drops, it has to do with A moving all around meatshield problem. for drops we have option no. 2 and 3.
Yes, again, option 2 and 3 will make it less effective or come later. Please read carefully.
no4 (armour type) you mean? not no.3 (transform option). As I said, it will need careful considerations but still thats why you build banshees for this not mass hellbats.
kid. keep trolling until someone bashes you.
LOL what is troll with that son? Do you even understand the points? I think you don't even play terran. tsk tsk
You are trolling because all those "separate games" you list are actually an evolution based on the same concept. That "we are in HotS now" remark is like a any of todays idiots who think that everything new must be better and has nothing to learn from the old. Too many kids these days are "worshippers of new technology" while not noticing that new stuff causes more problems than old stuff. And it isnt "stuff" only but also behaviours and general economy "advancements" which go down a bad path because kids are worshipping "the new" without question.
You dwell in the past if that is the case. You problem is that it works before in X, it should work now in Y. Which is just wrong. No they wont because they are totally different games. We need to fix and take to account all current issues not just compare it with past games and results. That is why new ideas are welcomed here not look for nerfing and dwelling to old stuff. Change is inevitable. learn to adapt and accept it, thats why old stuff turns obsolete because new is almost always better. It is just dumb to just dwell on the old stuff when you can have so much better to have and use.
No real sense to respond to this kind of stupid post, but I will do it anyway because it is so easy to prove wrong. The poster ignores the fact that SC2 has that number in it and thus is a sequel to another game which has developed quite a fan base in the past. It follows the same basic design of three races and 200 supply limit, 2 resources and there are even some units which were taken from the original game. Sure enough the single player campaign continues the story from the first game and its expansion. What more proof do you need that the two games are NOT SEPARATE ENTITIES?
Take off your blinkers and accept the fact that to develop better new stuff you need to learn from the old and admit failures and wrong steps. Thus it is absolutely necessary for the SC2 team to look to the past and see where BW didnt have problems while SC2 has. It is also quite easy to show with a comparison between the two games that they have turned an "RTS" into an "RTA" and that might not be such a good thing. As an RTA Starcraft 2 is brilliant but hardly playable for fun on the ladder; to become an RTS it needs to be tuned down and the unit count - how many units are on the map at a time - needs to be changed to BW levels.
So you say that we need "new ideas" and yet you are ruling out some ideas purely on the basis that they "come from the past"? Are you really this ignorant or blind or arrogant that you think that only something that has never been done before can "save us"? Try to OPEN YOUR MIND and GET RID OF YOUR PREJUDICES ...
I absolutely love hellbat drops in TvT. My apm and multitask has always been my biggest strength, and having 4-6 medivacs with hellbats flying around harrassing, while defending harrass myself, and watching my opponent fall apart is awesome feeling. Much better than the mech TvT in WoL of sit around until 200/200 then switch to air.
On July 08 2013 21:36 Rabiator wrote: Take off your blinkers and accept the fact that to develop better new stuff you need to learn from the old and admit failures and wrong steps. Thus it is absolutely necessary for the SC2 team to look to the past and see where BW didnt have problems while SC2 has. It is also quite easy to show with a comparison between the two games that they have turned an "RTS" into an "RTA" and that might not be such a good thing. As an RTA Starcraft 2 is brilliant but hardly playable for fun on the ladder; to become an RTS it needs to be tuned down and the unit count - how many units are on the map at a time - needs to be changed to BW levels.
So you say that we need "new ideas" and yet you are ruling out some ideas purely on the basis that they "come from the past"? Are you really this ignorant or blind or arrogant that you think that only something that has never been done before can "save us"? Try to OPEN YOUR MIND and GET RID OF YOUR PREJUDICES ...
In any case ... please stop trolling ...
No, you take off your blinkers and stop pretenting Broodwar is the only RTS game out there. Go play some CnC game and get rushed at 2mins because your opponent sold his headquarters AND skipped all teching and now just has an army worth advantage of 50%. Go and play against a Tanya that swims around the map and then your whole base detonates in a few seconds. An Engeneer in some transport vehicle/aircraft and suddenly your opponent gets money from overtaking+selling your building. Or a flame tank getting through and your buildings just evaporate. A humvee with rocket troopers wrecking your stuff.
Starcraft Broodwar is one of the slowest RTS games out there. If you call something RTA just because it is faster than Broodwar, you have to find a new genre for half of the RTS games.
Rabiator has been saying SC2 should be more like bw since forever, it's no wonder why he keeps on complaining about things that SC2 players actually find OK. he should be the one opening his eyes and accept that the game is actually fine as it is, balance issue aside
Why would number 3 be weird? the problem is hellbat and drops. upgrade before drops can still be worth it but terran needs to invest more or make it just delayed not coming in 7:30 mins and killing all workers.
I also have another thing come up to mind, make hellbats armored, and remove healing option but this sounds drastic. Just makes sense since they took parts of themselves and turned arms into shields, made their HP total to 135, it is big and slow so should be armored (looks like a marauder/firebat).
No you dont need to have 2 upgrades to be implemented, as I said they can choose one of those, pre ignigter or transform. Each one of the options would make it more pleasant than the current state as it would delay the 7:30 drop. 1st option would make the early drop 3 shot workers, the later drop would be the same potency as the current state.
First, the first option is about reducing durability of hellbat (not making early drop 3 shot. maybe you have mixed up numbers? ). But there is no units that heals only half or quarter since starcraft I alpha. Hellbat is already illogical by being a FACTORY unit that can be both mech and bio and this is even more non sense. And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
Secondly, no 2 is what actually blizzard suggested and not good because it affects other match ups that are not TvT (please read previous posts). That's why I wanted hellbat dmg to be less nerfed.
Thirdly, if you have to get current hellbat after factory-> armory-> techlab on the factory, then research, would you use it? This will nerf not only hellbat drop but also hellbat itself too much in ALL match ups.
Also, making armored (I thought I posted only few posts ago???) will make hellbat blowed by other +armor attackers, which will also affect not only drops but hellbat in general. Hellbat is the meatshield for mech because other mechs are armored but hellbat is not armored.
Hope I have explained well. XP Please read whole posts (I actually did!) because I don't want people just jump in and saying something that what already has been discussed.
Edit: when I say 'affects', it means it affects TOO MUCH.
Sorry I dont have the luxury of time reading the whole 40 pages of discussions.
but number 1 would not reduce its durability because it has still 135 hp. It would only slow the rate of heal in which they are practically immoral against zerg units if you have high medivac count. And yes this is a game mechanic, does not matter if it is not in SC2 alpha? why? because it is an update. Change is constant and we are now in HOTs, maybe in LoV we could have real firebats and actual medics back, who knows? Maybe warhounds will do a comeback. You cant justify starcraft for being realistic? This is a fiction game. Where can u find dudes making blades from thoughts? Does not matter if it makes more sense if they are bio/mech coming from a factory, maybe when he transforms he exposes his ass and makes him bio, we dont know he just does it.
The damage in number 2 is solely for the 2 hit worker kill which makes it 1 hit since you have 2 hellbats in a drop. This affects all match ups as worker HPs are 40, 40, 45. Has nothing to do with TvT or any other specific matchups.
The only thing it would make is delay the 7:30 minute drop that is too fast to do. maybe it would make it 8:30 this time, gives any race ample time to defend and not make them too far behind for defending.
The armored suggestion can work but it would need careful reviews has to add +1 armor to it or just leave it 0 default armor. Yeah meatshields tend to be armored right? and not light? if it makes sense to you that they have armored shields in their arms, suddenly have 35 more HP and slowed movement speed then yes armored makes most sense.
I read the whole OP post but again with the 40 pages of whine and for the interest of my time, i cant read 40 pages. I would just provide what I think are appropriate and I think the more similar the suggestion the more people seems to agree.
facepalmd...
no1- Its from SC I alpha. you didn't read a single post carefully did you?
I said: And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
no2- ONLY TvT suffers from early drops. Thats why I said hellbat should have 18+4 when they come out (so that they will 3 shots SCV but 2 shots drones and probes)
We don't want hellbat drops to be totally disappear. We just want hellbat drops less effective and less be seen.
no3- being light will make it NOT countered by + armor types which counter other mechs like tanks and thors.
And you said in no1 it doesn't matter the hellbat to be real life logical but you want to include real life logic to make 'sense'??? in no3?
Edit:Man, if you are trolling, you really got me.
why do you keep comparing SC2 alpha, BW and SC2 whatever version with HOTs? That is why we are now in HOTs, please move on.
point 1 does not have to do with drops, it has to do with A moving all around meatshield problem. for drops we have option no. 2 and 3.
Yes, again, option 2 and 3 will make it less effective or come later. Please read carefully.
no4 (armour type) you mean? not no.3 (transform option). As I said, it will need careful considerations but still thats why you build banshees for this not mass hellbats.
kid. keep trolling until someone bashes you.
LOL what is troll with that son? Do you even understand the points? I think you don't even play terran. tsk tsk
You are trolling because all those "separate games" you list are actually an evolution based on the same concept. That "we are in HotS now" remark is like a any of todays idiots who think that everything new must be better and has nothing to learn from the old. Too many kids these days are "worshippers of new technology" while not noticing that new stuff causes more problems than old stuff. And it isnt "stuff" only but also behaviours and general economy "advancements" which go down a bad path because kids are worshipping "the new" without question.
You dwell in the past if that is the case. You problem is that it works before in X, it should work now in Y. Which is just wrong. No they wont because they are totally different games. We need to fix and take to account all current issues not just compare it with past games and results. That is why new ideas are welcomed here not look for nerfing and dwelling to old stuff. Change is inevitable. learn to adapt and accept it, thats why old stuff turns obsolete because new is almost always better. It is just dumb to just dwell on the old stuff when you can have so much better to have and use.
No real sense to respond to this kind of stupid post, but I will do it anyway because it is so easy to prove wrong. The poster ignores the fact that SC2 has that number in it and thus is a sequel to another game which has developed quite a fan base in the past. It follows the same basic design of three races and 200 supply limit, 2 resources and there are even some units which were taken from the original game. Sure enough the single player campaign continues the story from the first game and its expansion. What more proof do you need that the two games are NOT SEPARATE ENTITIES?
Take off your blinkers and accept the fact that to develop better new stuff you need to learn from the old and admit failures and wrong steps. Thus it is absolutely necessary for the SC2 team to look to the past and see where BW didnt have problems while SC2 has. It is also quite easy to show with a comparison between the two games that they have turned an "RTS" into an "RTA" and that might not be such a good thing. As an RTA Starcraft 2 is brilliant but hardly playable for fun on the ladder; to become an RTS it needs to be tuned down and the unit count - how many units are on the map at a time - needs to be changed to BW levels.
So you say that we need "new ideas" and yet you are ruling out some ideas purely on the basis that they "come from the past"? Are you really this ignorant or blind or arrogant that you think that only something that has never been done before can "save us"? Try to OPEN YOUR MIND and GET RID OF YOUR PREJUDICES ...
In any case ... please stop trolling ...
LOL really? hahaha, now I think you are the one trolling, Dont worry I have all the time to feed you and I am still not loosing hope for you and your other buddies
Let me explain to you incase you dont realize this. BW has a lot of pathing issues, poor maps, poor AI issues. Slow ass, manual contol for everything plus your bugs and wtf moments. It even has guides for using a certain unit (remember the reaver?).
So now that I have pointed that out, let me explain to you that SC2 has addressed some of those issues so what now? If we put say on the current state of SC2 a reaver you will cry reall hard. Imagine if you are zerg and I drop reavers with perfect AI rifing a fast ass prism plus I warp some units as well for good measure. Well reavers are not that all. Lets see... imagine wraiths? Oh, imagine goliaths, damn they would be the best units next to marines. They are just some units that needs to be replaced because of this enhancement/fix to the BW issues. In that aspect, BW was a totally different game if you can understand that. Try to ponder on that before you use type stuff.
You just dont trash the whole SC2 and port BW to the current system, its not the same, it is not that easy. If that would be the case blizzard would totally do that and you all would cry. Have you played the custom BW map? Do you think it is a balanced map or even a good idea? Also SC2 is not an expansion of BW. Please try to understand that else we would just have the same things on steriods.
On July 08 2013 21:39 Nimelrian wrote: Just give them a passive "Titanite Armor" or something that stops medivacs from healing them while Archons will keep their bonus damage...
Agree! Just do the balance required. It's not like it makes any sense, that a medivac is able to heal a transformed car anyway.
On July 08 2013 21:39 Nimelrian wrote: Just give them a passive "Titanite Armor" or something that stops medivacs from healing them while Archons will keep their bonus damage...
Agree! Just do the balance required. It's not like it makes any sense, that a medivac is able to heal a transformed car anyway.
Or a transforming flamethrower infantry. Seriously, David Kim is rolling back the clock, Terrans need AA just like in BW days.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.blogcdn.com/massively.joystiq.com/media/2008/07/speedkills225.jpg)
