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On June 11 2013 16:16 Kiran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 15:49 saltis wrote:On June 11 2013 15:44 doffe wrote:
I still think making helbats unhealable by medivacs earlygame would be a good thing. why not make the medivac upgrade include healing helbats? that would make the earlygame harass unforgiving and still get the option to use them to counter chargelots and lings after the upgrade.
Removing healing completly would go away from the original purpouse of the helbat. Best comment in this thread. That would be the best solution. i don't play terran, but i think this option would pose a problem in medivac production as well, because you can't reactor them out with a tech lab on your starport. which means it would delay hellbatdrops even more... and as soon as armory and starport are scouted, it would delay so much, that those drops loose too much on impact... at least i think it could be that way...
well, you could have an upgrade on the fact techlab for it aswell.. but I don't think forcing terrans to make a techlab starport to have the healing a problem. Its more of a commitement if they want the healing and they can still reactor the port and get no healing if they don't want to do that.
Its one possible sollution atleast. What do the terrans think? the problem seems to be mostly in TvT anyways :p
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We're looking into it.
Obviously we'd like to see how they turn out in the coming weeks, but initially we're thinking:
3. Might be too early before defenses can be ready
Rather than jumping to conclusions right now, we'll keep a close eye on it and if in fact Hellbat drops do turn out too strong, we'll do something like rolling in some of their damage with the Infernal Pre igniter upgrade.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9280218214?page=1
Am I the only one finding it very unlogical to say "might be too early before defenses can be ready" --> nerf damage? Why not require the transformation upgrade?
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Canada11535 Posts
@aZealot.
Well to be honest, I would see hellions as the vulture analog. Hellbats do indeed seem much tougher than vultures. Although my earlier arguments focused on the old Warhound, I see the hellbat as yet another tanky 'infantry' unit that has been added to the Terran's force. And to my mind hellbats hard counter things like zealots far more than I would like if we had a spectrum of 'pure hard counter' aka rock-paper scissor to 'pure control.' So I agree with you there. I just don't think 'harass' and 'mech' are mutually exclusive- just different arms of the same gameplay.
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On June 11 2013 16:24 doffe wrote:
Its one possible sollution atleast. What do the terrans think? the problem seems to be mostly in TvT anyways :p
Meanwhile we can see forgg defending against the drops with hellion viking, then proceed to roll them over with his army.
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On June 11 2013 16:28 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 16:24 doffe wrote:
Its one possible sollution atleast. What do the terrans think? the problem seems to be mostly in TvT anyways :p Meanwhile we can see forgg defending against the drops with hellion viking, then proceed to roll them over with his army.
But forGG sucks at TvT, right? He did not do all that hot in WCS after all 
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Blizzard announces Captain Obvious as their new head balance designer.
jk
My opinion regarding hellbat drops:
The new speed + hellbats damage was an overkill
Drops are supposed to do damage if the enemies units are out of position. Sadly, hellbats can do damage even it is spotted. This won't change by simply adjustifying the way the drops work or hellbats are made viable. We will either see lots of hellbat drops or no hellbats at all - simply because there is no point in building a weak unit.
Hellbats were meant to fulfill a certain role - providing a mineral dump to make mech viable in tvp. But since they aren't fleshy enough to withstand collossi, they have absolutely no value in supporting mech.
Instead, the hellbat took the role of Terrans entire harrasment by being crazy cost effective in small numbers - no need to get banshees/fast marine drops/blueflame drops, etc. Upgrades which delay those drops won't solve it.
Another thing is, the hellbat has never been a transformation of the hellion - Since this upgrade exists, hellbats are build seperately and treated like a different unit. Simply, because there is no reason to use hellions and hellbats together. But I honestly have to say that I'd love to see bulky hellbats in the front and crazy blueflame hellions roasting zerglings from behind the hellbat-wall.
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On June 11 2013 13:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 13:05 Waxangel wrote:
fix the medivac, not the hellbat
harassment has become so easy it's no longer impressive I always thought they should change the turn radius on the medivac when it boosted. Just change the way in controls so it can't stop on a dime and zip in every direction. Hell, phoenixes are harder to control than a boosted medivac.
Wow, I really like that idea actually!
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Am I the only one finding it very unlogical to say "might be too early before defenses can be ready" --> nerf damage? Why not require the transformation upgrade?
Yeah, it has no sense at all. The main problem seems to be the timing and only the timing of HB drops. So, just put an upgrade to delay this timing of X seconds / minutes and here you go, problem solved (Medivac upgrade for example). But do not touch HB damages ....
His purpose is to counter light units, even in very early game. If you nerf damages, you nerf the HB and his purpose : the whole balance is compromised.
Please, do not make another brainless WOL nerf ....
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I posted a build that would completely counter hellbat drop builds, but my thread got closed -.- thank you team liquid mods, for helping the community develop the Meta. Basically my build is a standard factory expand, but you get 2 starports - one with reactor and one techlab, and this should hard counter hellbats completely.
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Wow, must say I'm perplexed.. Or at least - wordless.. 
DK really surprised me this time.. Didn't seem like he liked to do even the slightest changes to the unit on the SotG episode he was participating in.. He actually said that he'd do sth with the Hellbats IF the games in which Terran would play 80% of the times THEN he'd do sth..
This came out like a thunder from the sky lol.. What's even funnier is that he seems like he's nerfing the thing solely because of TvT lol..
Nevertheless - I think if they do the following:
1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
2 - Make HB non bio, i.e. - not be healed - then those Drops would lose some ground/strength..
it would probably make me Happy.. Quite a bit more..
However - the HB is unit's quite a bit too gimmicky/hard to be balanced.. I think the Medis are those who might need a nerf, much easier to test, much easier to execute.. If they really had the Ballz then that's the unit which should be experimented with for a while..
BUT if it's solely the TIMING they wanna fix: something tells me that this is probably going to end in an Armory building gas and/or building time increase - i.e. - 150/150 instead of 150/100 and/or maybe 10 seconds longer build time.. But don't quite like that approach - cause late game there's an issue too of those being quite a bit too strong as a mineral-only unit, and DATA still won't show it cause it's like less than 15% of the games that go to that phase overall..
All these problems are probably an aftermath of the fact that Blizz wasn't experimenting enough with the Terran over the course of Beta.. All the new units/changes were kinda pushed over the last month during that period as a result of a fix of previously very bad unit designs, so ended up with not enough time/data to work upon except feast on the game-numbers outcome that the game was balanced over all levels overall..
Still - For the sake of massive-battle late-game - reduce rate or scrap healing over HBs.. Maybe make them have +1 Armor in HB form, but not make those heal.. or with a diminiched rate of heal at least.. And that healing thing seems like is also the reason why so many Protosses think they're too strong - cause when HBs are healed then they pretty much soak up A LOT.. And by A LOT I Mean don't die to 3 Colossi, but need like 5-6 instead.. Or like 4 Consecutive Storms over them, or 3 at least..
Might solve A LOT I of the problems.. I think
So yah, curious to see how this turns out, but won't make my expectations as high as much, as they'll probably nerf the Armory build time and/or gas cost lol..
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what if they only could fit into a medivac when in hellion mode?
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Why not just take the biological away? That would make it a hell of a lot easyer to kill them. Than it's not that hard to defend against the drop...
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On June 11 2013 16:44 Akaann wrote:
Why not just take the biological away? That would make it a hell of a lot easyer to kill them. Than it's not that hard to defend against the drop...
Because it would affect the TvZ and TvP balance which is fine.
That is why this is tricky.
The only hope is (thanks to Snowbear for pointing this out) that terrans look at that TvT scrub ForGG and learn to deal with hellbats, as he seems to be doing pretty well defending them.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412904
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On June 11 2013 10:52 SoOJuuu wrote:
took them long enough to figuire it out.
sigh
better late then never.
Look Hellbats annoy me but this sort of comment is way off base. The metagame is STILL not stablised yet.
Blizzard have kept their paws off balance in HotS till now and the game is healthier for it. This is really classy restraint and a really elegant way to go about approaching a balance tweak (spore crawler buff was less elegant).
When the devs done right, don't give them shit, otherwise you just sound like CryWolfBoy when something's really broken.
So far, well done to DKim and team.
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On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote:
1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
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The speed boost for Medivacs are absolutely necessary against in a TvZ where Zerg is using Mutalisks. Mutalisks are faster than non-speed medivacs, if you want any drop to go through then you need that boost.
Someone mentioned boosters costing energy to use, that does seem an elegant solution as it forces you to be careful with how much boosters you use (currently Terrans boost as soon as units are loaded) if you want any energy left for healing.
Making Hellbats require the Transfo Servos does seem like a pretty good "nerf" as well.
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On June 11 2013 16:54 Sissors wrote:So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran?
If you read my post you'll see that I wrote:
ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT ENOUGH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA..
Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
Hell that's what was the problem in WoL for 1.5 years straight anyways.. They NEVER put Terran UP for at least EVEN a SECOND to SEE which problems they might FACE from the other races anyway at all..
Take Widow-mine for example ?? - you say it's a good unit cause it doesn't make the number of games bad and makes it balanced - I say it's very bad unit design because of the following:
1 - too weak against Protoss..
2 - too strong vs Zerg..
3 - cause too much loss of mining time
4 - too cheap to produce
5 - set and forget unit
SEE ? - not enough experimenting with almost any of the new tech in HotS of Terran..
Hell I even think that the Swarm-host needed to be experimented more..
All these never EVER had a change to work with and/or compare data to decide what was the best outcome
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On June 11 2013 15:35 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 15:24 aZealot wrote:On June 11 2013 15:13 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 15:08 tomatriedes wrote:On June 11 2013 15:03 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 15:00 tomatriedes wrote:
Since it's early game that's the main issue, requiring an upgrade seems like a pretty fair solution. Guess that means bye-bye for Strelok in WCS (the only decent player who plays mech TvP I know). Why do you say that? This kind of change David Kim is talking about would not affect mid or late game hellbat compositions. The hellbat wouldn't be weaker overall with a blue flame upgrade; it would just make early hellbat drop spam a little less popular. I've watched Strelok games and I think, that mech would even less viable if hellbats were worse at dealing with early GW pressure. GW timings can hit really fast, players know that Strelok is playing mech and will exploit it. Also, with no real threat of harassment the toss will quickly go on an eco rampage - that makes things even worse. Wait, what? You want to mech properly and be able to harass powerfully? Right. The two actually go together. If by mech we mean siege tanks and not armoured infantry. Mech is relatively immobile and requires leap-frogging forward. It follows that mech needs to use harass units strike where the main army cannot rush to.
Well its either that OR mech armies are powerful enough to defend their bases AND threaten a larger army ... That isnt the case and those mech units have too many weaknesses against massive armies of their opponents (especially Zerglings who can close far too fast).
I also think that "traditional mech" is hindered by the creep spread, because it recedes too slowly and there is no active way to remove creep to place some buildings. Day[9] described an attack as "rushing 3/4 of the distance across the map and then slowly pushing from there on". That sounds like a good way to do it, but with the creep it would be impossible to set up an offensive position on the Zerg side of the map.
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On June 11 2013 17:01 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 16:54 Sissors wrote:On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote:
1 - make Medivac cost 125/125 So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran? If you read my post you'll see that I wrote: ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..
Please don't scream. Nobody likes people screaming.
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EPT
