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On June 11 2013 17:01 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 16:54 Sissors wrote:On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote:
1 - make Medivac cost 125/125 So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran? If you read my post you'll see that I wrote: ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol.. 
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
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Poll: So many suggestions..so let´s go:Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (35) 64% Nerf Medivac "thrusters" (9) 16% Remove bio tag ONLY (8) 15% Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (3) 5% Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (0) 0% Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (0) 0% 55 total votes Your vote: So many suggestions..so let´s go: (Vote): Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage
(Vote): Remove bio tag ONLY
(Vote): Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat"
(Vote): Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP
(Vote): Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well
(Vote): Nerf Medivac "thrusters"
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On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote:
1 - make Medivac cost 125/125
2 - Make HB non bio, i.e. - not be healed - then those Drops would lose some ground/strength..
None of these suggestions would change the efficiency of the first Hellbat drop. Sure it would be slowed down by the amount of time to gather 25 gas ... which is a few seconds. Other than that you are nerfing regular bio strategies for the whole game just to fix an early rush problem? I would call that even worse than the Blizzard solution to the Mutalisk problem.
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On June 11 2013 17:09 Dvriel wrote:Poll: So many suggestions..so let´s go:Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (35) 64% Nerf Medivac "thrusters" (9) 16% Remove bio tag ONLY (8) 15% Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (3) 5% Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (0) 0% Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (0) 0% 55 total votes Your vote: So many suggestions..so let´s go: (Vote): Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage
(Vote): Remove bio tag ONLY
(Vote): Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat"
(Vote): Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP
(Vote): Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well
(Vote): Nerf Medivac "thrusters"
Where is the: "Look at the way ForGG defends Hellbats and L2P?"
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On June 11 2013 17:01 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 16:54 Sissors wrote:On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote:
1 - make Medivac cost 125/125 So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran? If you read my post you'll see that I wrote: ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT ENOUGH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA.. Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol.. Hell that's what was the problem in WoL for 1.5 years straight anyways.. They NEVER put Terran UP for at least EVEN a SECOND to SEE which problems they might FACE from the other races anyway at all..
Yeah the screaming wasn't required. But I made apparantly the incorrect assumption you wanted a balanced game, but you want a game where terran is underpowered, which does explain the changes you propose.
(Not to mention at least the last 6 months of WoL was completely dominated by zerg, with terran the least played race in every league above silver).
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On June 11 2013 16:33 Lock0n wrote:
I posted a build that would completely counter hellbat drop builds, but my thread got closed -.- thank you team liquid mods, for helping the community develop the Meta. Basically my build is a standard factory expand, but you get 2 starports - one with reactor and one techlab, and this should hard counter hellbats completely.
You posted a "build" that you had by your own admission never even tried, without replays. If you want to explain to the TL mods why that was helping us "develop the Meta" you should go to website feedback and lay out your story there, not come into another thread and complain that you're being kept from rescuing TvT.
As for DK's comments, I'm happy with Blizzard's pace. I wouldn't be surprised to see some shift in the metagame that reduces the ubiquity of HB drops. I don't want to sit through more TvTs where the first ten minutes are just a constant stream of Medivacs flying past each other, but I'd rather tolerate that for a few weeks and see whether someone solves the problem than risk a too-hasty change that makes the tactic completely useless. My two examples of this sort of process going wrong in WoL were the 4-gate, which was allowed to dominate PvP for so long that the match-up was permanently stunted, and the Reaper, which was hastily nerfed to the point where it essentially disappeared from the game.
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On June 11 2013 16:27 Falling wrote:
@aZealot.
Well to be honest, I would see hellions as the vulture analog. Hellbats do indeed seem much tougher than vultures. Although my earlier arguments focused on the old Warhound, I see the hellbat as yet another tanky 'infantry' unit that has been added to the Terran's force. And to my mind hellbats hard counter things like zealots far more than I would like if we had a spectrum of 'pure hard counter' aka rock-paper scissor to 'pure control.' So I agree with you there. I just don't think 'harass' and 'mech' are mutually exclusive- just different arms of the same gameplay.
Thanks, I get that. I appreciate the insight. And it does make sense. And, yes, I see that Hellions are more analogous to Vultures. Taking your tanky infantry unit comparison a step further, the Hellbat seems a flame throwing version of the Marauder.
Edit/ All that said, I'll re-iterate that DK is right to wait and see. Now, about that WP buff, Blizzard... 
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On June 11 2013 17:10 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 17:09 Dvriel wrote:Poll: So many suggestions..so let´s go:Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (35) 64% Nerf Medivac "thrusters" (9) 16% Remove bio tag ONLY (8) 15% Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (3) 5% Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (0) 0% Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (0) 0% 55 total votes Your vote: So many suggestions..so let´s go: (Vote): Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage
(Vote): Remove bio tag ONLY
(Vote): Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat"
(Vote): Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP
(Vote): Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well
(Vote): Nerf Medivac "thrusters"
Where is the: "Look at the way ForGG defends Hellbats and L2P?"
Ask Innovation and Mvp.I suppose,they were able to beat ForGG,but arent so good as him defending this,thats why they dedicated themselves to the "mass Hellbatdrop2 instead of "L2P"...."Full Foreigners"...
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On June 11 2013 17:05 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 17:01 VArsovskiSC wrote:On June 11 2013 16:54 Sissors wrote:On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote:
1 - make Medivac cost 125/125 So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran? If you read my post you'll see that I wrote: ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol.. We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now". You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
There are no "balance problems" in a coinflip game - they are 50/50 by nature -, but strategy games are not supposed to be coinflippy at all. Sadly Blizzard has changed Starcraft from a strategy game (BW) into an action game (SC2) with bigger explosions and higher kill count. Higher kill count works for "Hot Shots 2" (as a joke) but not for Starcraft 2 ... and they arent courageous enough to admit the mistake or smart enough to recognize it.
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On June 11 2013 17:10 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 17:09 Dvriel wrote:Poll: So many suggestions..so let´s go:Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (35) 64% Nerf Medivac "thrusters" (9) 16% Remove bio tag ONLY (8) 15% Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (3) 5% Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (0) 0% Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (0) 0% 55 total votes Your vote: So many suggestions..so let´s go: (Vote): Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage
(Vote): Remove bio tag ONLY
(Vote): Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat"
(Vote): Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP
(Vote): Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well
(Vote): Nerf Medivac "thrusters"
Where is the: "Look at the way ForGG defends Hellbats and L2P?"
That option is stupid, because you cant make a game which is only playable for maybe 100 people.,
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On June 11 2013 17:10 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 17:09 Dvriel wrote:Poll: So many suggestions..so let´s go:Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (35) 64% Nerf Medivac "thrusters" (9) 16% Remove bio tag ONLY (8) 15% Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (3) 5% Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (0) 0% Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (0) 0% 55 total votes Your vote: So many suggestions..so let´s go: (Vote): Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage
(Vote): Remove bio tag ONLY
(Vote): Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat"
(Vote): Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP
(Vote): Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well
(Vote): Nerf Medivac "thrusters"
Where is the: "Look at the way ForGG defends Hellbats and L2P?"
don't go there :S. there has been stuff widely considered op or broken before that some people soemtimes won against, that doesnt mean it needs no change. I think most people actually agree that some slight tweek needs to be done no matter how slight.
Just because people won vs zerg lategame vs the infamous BL infestor sometimes didnt mean that the rest should simply watch that player and l2p, it's a silly notion really. I would love to see the stats of how many TvTs in WCS involved helbats and how many times the one doing that won.
I am though all for letting metagame/maps/innovation(not the player) solve balance but surely there are points when this isnt longer an option?
If the issue is earlygame hellbat drops (as I understand it is) then remove the strength of that and keep the lategame strength.
I see a few options.
My favourite is simply requiring an upgrade to have them be healed.. you can still drop but retaining is harder and it is less forgiving
you could nerf the damage but make the upgrades scale better so at 3 attack you end up at the same place
you could require the helbat upgrade to build them at all (not a fan of this one though)
I guess several people think they need a permanent lategame nerf aswell.. I haven't seen alot of games where this has been needed though, that doesn't mean they don't exist but I personally havn't seen it.
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On June 11 2013 11:54 HonorZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 10:50 Dark.EX wrote:We're looking into it.
Obviously we'd like to see how they turn out in the coming weeks, but initially we're thinking:
1. Too easy to execute
2. Especially in TvT, not a lot of risk to doing them (when you don't lose the Medivac)
3. Might be too early before defenses can be ready
Rather than jumping to conclusions right now, we'll keep a close eye on it and if in fact Hellbat drops do turn out too strong, we'll do something like rolling in some of their damage with the Infernal Pre igniter upgrade. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9280218214?page=1Personally, I completely agree with their stance. I really really like the Pre Igniter Upgrade. This would make the upgrade really relevant. Lets have the normal HB shitty damage, and with the upgrade the current damages. Make the upgrade cheap, but long to research. Also, maybe reduce the health of the HB a little, but keeping the healing.
EXACTLY what it needs to slove the problem!
Mr. Kim: Energy!
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Also change voidrays while your at it.
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On June 11 2013 17:15 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 17:10 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:09 Dvriel wrote:Poll: So many suggestions..so let´s go:Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (35) 64% Nerf Medivac "thrusters" (9) 16% Remove bio tag ONLY (8) 15% Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (3) 5% Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (0) 0% Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (0) 0% 55 total votes Your vote: So many suggestions..so let´s go: (Vote): Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage
(Vote): Remove bio tag ONLY
(Vote): Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat"
(Vote): Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP
(Vote): Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well
(Vote): Nerf Medivac "thrusters"
Where is the: "Look at the way ForGG defends Hellbats and L2P?" Ask Innovation and Mvp.I suppose,they were able to beat ForGG,but arent so good as him defending this,thats why they dedicated themselves to the "mass Hellbatdrop2 instead of "L2P"...."Full Foreigners"...
Yes, ForGG los a single TvT series vs WCS EU Champion, therefore his strategy is invalid and should be never ever looked into. Wp man, wp.
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On June 11 2013 17:05 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 17:01 VArsovskiSC wrote:On June 11 2013 16:54 Sissors wrote:On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote:
1 - make Medivac cost 125/125 So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran? If you read my post you'll see that I wrote: ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol.. We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now". You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact.
who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want?
I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even?
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Last time a Terran made these at me I went Banshee harass...When I scouted hellbat drop I left first banshee at base...With a marauder and a Banshee this drop is quite defendable...You can follow up with another banshee to clean hellbats even faster or a Viking to hunt medivacs and try catching them before they drop...All in all when a T goes hell bat drops and I go 1-1-1 I build 2 marauders 2 banshees viking and so far so good good...But my level is low so what do I know...:-)
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On June 11 2013 17:20 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 17:15 Dvriel wrote:On June 11 2013 17:10 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:09 Dvriel wrote:Poll: So many suggestions..so let´s go:Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (35) 64% Nerf Medivac "thrusters" (9) 16% Remove bio tag ONLY (8) 15% Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (3) 5% Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (0) 0% Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (0) 0% 55 total votes Your vote: So many suggestions..so let´s go: (Vote): Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage
(Vote): Remove bio tag ONLY
(Vote): Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat"
(Vote): Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP
(Vote): Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well
(Vote): Nerf Medivac "thrusters"
Where is the: "Look at the way ForGG defends Hellbats and L2P?" Ask Innovation and Mvp.I suppose,they were able to beat ForGG,but arent so good as him defending this,thats why they dedicated themselves to the "mass Hellbatdrop2 instead of "L2P"...."Full Foreigners"... Yes, ForGG los a single TvT series vs WCS EU Champion, therefore his strategy is invalid and should be never ever looked into. Wp man, wp.
It doesn't make the strategy invalid at all obviously but who did he beat to actually make it valid? I mean that argument goes both ways. Just because ForGG won games with strat A vs B doesnt mean it doesn't need looking in to.
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At this rate of comments being added in the thread Blizzard should realize that the Hellbat (drop) NEEDS to be changed ... preferrably before the next season of WCS ...
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Certainly not require them to transform. I do agree with them being too fast and easy to use though. It's kind of insane how much damage they do.
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On June 11 2013 10:50 Dark.EX wrote:Show nested quote +We're looking into it.
Obviously we'd like to see how they turn out in the coming weeks, but initially we're thinking:
1. Too easy to execute
2. Especially in TvT, not a lot of risk to doing them (when you don't lose the Medivac)
3. Might be too early before defenses can be ready
Rather than jumping to conclusions right now, we'll keep a close eye on it and if in fact Hellbat drops do turn out too strong, we'll do something like rolling in some of their damage with the Infernal Pre igniter upgrade. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9280218214?page=1Personally, I completely agree with their stance.
going Rax-> Factory -> Armory-> Starport and then finally having built the units to drop, 3) must be a joke
Players should start scouting more and playing less greedy, i didn't ever have problems with HB Drops when I saw them coming/expected them.
1) does this mean, terran HAS to stay the race that has to micro the most for every strat they do? I mean come on, "too easy to execute", there are tons of strats that are too easy to execute compared to what damage they do and how hard they are to defend.
2) could be.
4) Problem with hellbatdrops is simply that they are a coin flip: you lose them before they do damage - you lost a lot, if drop does damage enemy can be far behind. Like a cheese almost.
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EPT
