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they should 4shot workers, be the Standard 2 supply in medivacs and get the "normal" damage via blueflame
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On June 11 2013 17:09 Dvriel wrote:Poll: So many suggestions..so let´s go:Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (35) 64% Nerf Medivac "thrusters" (9) 16% Remove bio tag ONLY (8) 15% Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well (3) 5% Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat" (0) 0% Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP (0) 0% 55 total votes Your vote: So many suggestions..so let´s go: (Vote): Damage Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage
(Vote): Remove bio tag ONLY
(Vote): Requiere resources to transform into "Hellbat"
(Vote): Nerf Damage less than Hellion, but buff HP
(Vote): Make Hellbats requiere "Transformation Servos" as well
(Vote): Nerf Medivac "thrusters"
- Keep Hellbats as they are, fix marines and siege tanks. 
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On June 11 2013 17:49 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 17:26 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:22 doffe wrote:On June 11 2013 17:05 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:01 VArsovskiSC wrote:On June 11 2013 16:54 Sissors wrote:On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote:
1 - make Medivac cost 125/125 So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran? If you read my post you'll see that I wrote: ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..  We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now". You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact. who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want? I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even? I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners
optimal: 3 2 2
actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists
optimal: 4 5 5
actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me. Where do you get those "optimal" numbers from? Don't ladder/# of progamer stats rather suggest something like: WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 10 11 11 - so more Protoss/Zerg than Terran (maybe even more than 10-11-11 in some regions)?
well... I divided 32 by 3 and rounded up & down. You can rearrange the 10s and 11s as you like, still it will be pretty close.
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They forgot 4. To cheap and efficient compared to other harassment options
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On June 11 2013 17:55 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 17:49 Big J wrote:On June 11 2013 17:26 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:22 doffe wrote:On June 11 2013 17:05 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:01 VArsovskiSC wrote:On June 11 2013 16:54 Sissors wrote:On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote:
1 - make Medivac cost 125/125 So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran? If you read my post you'll see that I wrote: ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol.. We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now". You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact. who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want? I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even? I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners
optimal: 3 2 2
actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists
optimal: 4 5 5
actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me. Where do you get those "optimal" numbers from? Don't ladder/# of progamer stats rather suggest something like: WCS Premier Season 2 Europe optimal: 10 11 11 - so more Protoss/Zerg than Terran (maybe even more than 10-11-11 in some regions)? well... I divided 32 by 3 and rounded up & down. You can rearrange the 10s and 11s as you like, still it will be pretty close.
ah ok, well... I thought you had some intersting data behind it that suggested that more T/Ps than Zs are playing in Europe at the highest level etc.
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On June 11 2013 17:43 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 17:33 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2013 17:26 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:22 doffe wrote:On June 11 2013 17:05 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:01 VArsovskiSC wrote:On June 11 2013 16:54 Sissors wrote:On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote:
1 - make Medivac cost 125/125 So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran? If you read my post you'll see that I wrote: ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol.. We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now". You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact. who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want? I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even? I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners
optimal: 3 2 2
actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists
optimal: 4 5 5
actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me. I guess you dont like to watch games and are only interested in the results then? Personally I am more a "the way you get there is the most important bit" kind of guy and winning through mainly Hellbat drops is more boring than a long drawn out game with strategic positions held, threatened and overrun ... you know, games which require STRATEGY to win. Hellbats dont give that same level of excitement + Show Spoiler + and in a sense they are like premature ejaculation ... the game is over far too quickly . I watch the games and I'd like them to get better. Having this kind of stats however makes me think that "hey, let's nerf Terran" approach is not the way to go, as the results are way to close for that. And every "solution" to this problem is essentially a terran nerf, whereas the results show that it would be unreasonable.
The point is that you have to look at the games to figure out what kind of games you have ... Hellbat drops are too much of the "succeed and you have more or less won the game (even though it may go on another 10 minutes)" or "fail and you have to play normally (and are only behind a tiny bit)" kind of options and especially the first one is a clear coinflip ... which has no place in an RTS ... not even an RTA (which SC2 has become).
The bottom line is: Stop jerking off about statistics. They are less relevant than you think they are ... because of the coinflip thing. It is more important to look at what kind of games you want to see and hopefully even Blizzard realizes that games decided mostly by harrassment are BAD because they are far too volatile (coinflippy) and have less to do with actual player skill. Sure the player needs to be good at using "harrassment strategy X", but in the end it is the same problem as any other "critical number" composition (of which there are plenty ... on purpose) because they are far too efficient for the cost.
SKILL needs to be important in such a game, but that skill requirement should not be put on the defender but the attacker instead. Hellbat drops require minimum skill while requiring a lot of skill to counter. Hellbats are the super combo of good AoE damage against workers and high health and thus they are far more efficient than dropping Marines (which also takes longer since you have to drop eight units instead of just two.
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On June 11 2013 17:44 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 17:36 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:29 doffe wrote:On June 11 2013 17:26 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:22 doffe wrote:On June 11 2013 17:05 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:01 VArsovskiSC wrote:On June 11 2013 16:54 Sissors wrote:On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote:
1 - make Medivac cost 125/125 So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran? If you read my post you'll see that I wrote: ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol.. We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now". You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact. who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want? I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even? I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners
optimal: 3 2 2
actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists
optimal: 4 5 5
actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me. That's a way to narrow way to approach balance. You need to look at what actually happens in the games not only the winratios. TvZ in WoL was a long time balanced in winratios but lategame zerg seemed hugely favoured and alot of the terrans winratios where all ins. Maybe that makes it balance but personally I definitely want a more dynamic game then that. having 64 players in WCS EU and WCS KR (as they are separate player pools) gives you a pretty snapshot of what does the top of SC2 in terms of skill looks like. "Dynamic games" is yet another term for patching the meta. You want to patch the meta and destroy the balance and I am not fine with it, I want the meta to evolve by itself. It is simple as that. you seem to live under the asumption that the meta always can evolve past a certain point. I think there definitely are situations where the meta can't fix balance. I do in general find that this is the best approach but you can't be to stubborn about it. If this is such a situation or not is not for me to decide, im way to low lvl for that and don't even play terran that much. I discuss to try to find the best solution but when you are so set in your idea of the meta will fix it there is kinda no reason to discuss. For me it feels like "put your fingers in your ears and scream META WILL FIX". There definitely where situations in WoL where the meta got stagnant and the games got terrible to watch... or did you like the "immortal all in vs infestor broodlord" that PvZ evolved into? That was pretty much what we saw the last year. Again, if this is the situation now or not is for the proscene to decide but don't get stuck in the notion of meta fixing it nor stare at winratios cause honestly, balance is way more complicated then that.
Like the moment they suddenly buffed queens and made this whole ordeal of hellion harass much more all-in and gimmicky. Blizzard will do what they want, in the end thats how meta shaped in SC2.
Infestor play, queen play (both "encouraged" by Blizzard)enabled "spontaneous" natural BroodLord transition.
PvZ however was always broken in the core (my opinion) because of how 2 races relate to each other in SC2. Its a different story.
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On June 11 2013 17:47 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 17:43 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:33 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2013 17:26 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:22 doffe wrote:On June 11 2013 17:05 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:01 VArsovskiSC wrote:On June 11 2013 16:54 Sissors wrote:On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote:
1 - make Medivac cost 125/125 So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran? If you read my post you'll see that I wrote: ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol.. We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now". You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact. who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want? I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even? I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners
optimal: 3 2 2
actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists
optimal: 4 5 5
actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me. I guess you dont like to watch games and are only interested in the results then? Personally I am more a "the way you get there is the most important bit" kind of guy and winning through mainly Hellbat drops is more boring than a long drawn out game with strategic positions held, threatened and overrun ... you know, games which require STRATEGY to win. Hellbats dont give that same level of excitement + Show Spoiler + and in a sense they are like premature ejaculation ... the game is over far too quickly . I watch the games and I'd like them to get better. Having this kind of stats however makes me think that "hey, let's nerf Terran" approach is not the way to go, as the results are way to close for that. And every "solution" to this problem is essentially a terran nerf, whereas the results show that it would be unreasonable. The results doesn't show anything of the sort. They don't in any way show that a small tweek to make early hellbat drops weaker would lower the terran winratios. Again, ZvP winratios where close to 50% in WoL and noone could ever claim that infestor BL didn't need nerfs. And whatever blizzard decides the tweaks should be small, messing around to much is never a good thing
I disagree. Balance is based purely on numbers and game quality is based on everything else.
Fast tech into harassment builds have a very small timing windows in TvZ and TvP, you need to do damage with your high tech units (read: hellbats) before the tech/eco or both kick in for the opponent. Making even a small adjustment will have major impact on size of these timing windows.
Probably Terran could survive without such builds in TvP/TvZ but I enjoy the variety.
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If they nerf the hellbat damage without blue flame, anyone else think they should remove the transformation upgrade completely? Its only purpose was to delay hellbat timings but if they do crap for damage without blue flame, it serves the same thing.
It could also help make the unit a bit more straight-forward, right now its a mess.
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On June 11 2013 11:38 geokilla wrote:
WCS Season 1 is over and David Kim still wants to wait it out after watching how much damage the Hellbat drops do? This has been a problem since HOTS beta and has continued to been one. I got Hellbat dropped today and I didn't even bother going back home to defend my SCVs because I knew I would be too far behind. I just pushed into my opponent's natural and hoped for the best.
Honestly speaking, I think Hellbat drops are viable against all races right now. Just open with Hellbat drops and you're pretty much guaranteed to kill roughly a dozen workers if your opponent doesn't pull SCVs quick enough, whether they are playing Protoss, Zerg, or Terran.
Yeah, it's a bit weird. Everyone knows they are too strong, and it's not like it's a very complicated unit that needs "figuring out" like the widow mine/swarm host etc. No matter what kind of micro trick you do, they will always deal insane amount of damage.
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Despite the fact, that, except for maybe a mod, no one will ever read my post on page 13, I need to state how awesome a guy David Kim seems to be. In my humble and utterly irrelevant opinion, he should give statements towards balance issues and (what's more important) Blizzard's goals of balancing much more often. If we KNOW why maps are designed as they are, when we are aware of the ideas behind the units, it is much much easier to give qualitatively better feedback. Furthermore we don't have to bitch around as fast, because we understand the ideas better. Being open has always been and will always be the way to go.
So thank you very very very much Mr. Kim
In desperate hope of seeing you comment more frequently
Vanimar
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Very nice, seems like David Kim and the balance team do listen and come to similar conclusions
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BL + infestor op in WoL? => Deal with it, Find a way to counter; Hellbat Drops difficult to stop? Fix Asap! (facepalm)
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I love that they're starting to really think about this, i'm terran and hellbats drops in TvT are amazingly boring.
Pretty hard to tweak this though, I guess the "Nerf.Infernal preigniter requiered to reach ACTUAL damage (19)" could be a good idea, need to be tested imo.
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On June 11 2013 18:25 Doublemint wrote:Very nice, seems like David Kim and the balance team do listen and come to similar conclusions
If they came come to similar conclusions to the community there would be no waiting it out to see if HB are too strong. And probably there would be no warpgate mechanic and stalkers would be 50x stronger. Or probably this game would be just like BW.
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To be 100% honest, I'd rather people find a reasonable way to shut down or mitigate their effects rather than a straight up nerf. But the thing is, I don't see how that is possible, because as far as we know, the best method is a Turret AND a Bunker (maybe it'll change to something better later, but unlikely).
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Whilst Innovation is mechanically the best player in the world, I feel Hellbat drops has given him a free pass in TvTs. The WCS Global Season Finals semifinal games against Mvp were good examples. Hellbat drops are hard to beat even if you expect it and prepare a strategy against it.
I won't jump into conclusions either but I'd like Blizzard to take a look into it. Last thing I want is drastic changes leading to the kind of GGLord Infestor era at the end of WoL but some changes are warranted and if done moderately can make the game better balance wise and also improve spectator experience.
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They´re getting it right and they´re taking their time to make decisions. All is well.
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On June 11 2013 18:31 Kabutomaru wrote:
BL + infestor op in WoL? => Deal with it, Find a way to counter; Hellbat Drops difficult to stop? Fix Asap! (facepalm)
So what's your point ? Even if you're kinda right, it's better that they show improvements in the way they manage the balance of their game, don't you think ?
I'm not for the "it was easy for zergs in end of WoL, now terrans have it easy, that's fair, see how it feels ?", i'm not fond of that kind of thinking. (i'm not saying TvZ is easy, was just for the example).
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Yeah let's fcking nerfhammer Terran like it's always been
At the same time we got imba swarmhost, ridicilously easy to execute oracles and ultralists with queens support that never die.
but fck that, lets nerf terran.
we got shit units in hots anyway
User was temp banned for this post.
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EPT
